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Connect Hd500 To Amp Effects Loop


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#1 Spiderplayer7

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Posted 01 March 2014 - 02:35 AM

Hi there,

 

I've been connecting my HD500 directly to the guitar input (via 1/4" out) of my Trademark 30 amp and then taking a direct XLR out from the Trademark into the house PA. I've looked at trying the 4 cable method but it does look at bit overcomplicated and probably provides more flexibility than i really need. I've just thought - what are your thoughts on connecting the Pod to my amp's effects return loop instead -  that should bypass the amp's pre-amp (if I'm right) and I could then use the Pod's XLR direct out to the PA and use the Trademark as a stage monitor (the Pod's direct out sounds better to me than the amp's).

 

Has anybody tried this? Does it work? etc. Thanks for your help!


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#2 bjnette

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Posted 01 March 2014 - 04:21 AM

Yes that will work.

Depends on how much tone you want from the Tech21.

4CM allows you the best of both but I don't think you got a FXsend return on your amp. 

So set it up as you suggest


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#3 ColonelForbin

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Posted 01 March 2014 - 08:40 AM

That is 100% a great way to go; it's exactly how I used my X3Live and then HD500 for years. I just upgraded to a DT25 in January of this year. Typically I used that with the L6Link, but even recently I was short an XLR cable, so I ended up running the 1/4" from the HD500 to the DT25 FX return, and it sounded great!

 

Allows you to run a mono signal to that amp as  your stage monitor, and take XLR from the HD500 to the house. You can even run that in stereo if you want.

The KEY is this: Studio/Direct mode. This will give you a decent / useable enough tone from the amp, and give you a proper signal to be routed through the main and monitor mixes.

 

I like to 'visualize' when I am using digital modelling, so as to best imagine what is occuring. You used the right term, your amp becomes your 'stage monitor'. Your "amp" is inside the HD500, and it's in a room in there, with a mic on it, in isolation. What you will hear is exactly that, and for many folks, it takes some adjustment to get used to the playing feel of your amp vs your amp mic'd.

 

I personally love it. Makes me feel like my amp is some awesome perfect acoustic chamber with the mic positioned just right, and I am in the control room, with my guitar, playing my parts, and heaing the amp+mic+room cutting into the mix just right.

 

"suspension of disbelief", much like enjoying a good movie, can be crucial to how you approach using digital amp modelling.


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#4 Spiderplayer7

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Posted 01 March 2014 - 11:52 AM

Thanks for your replies, I'm glad to know that it's a method worth trying. And I understand your point, ColonelForbin, about 'suspension of disbelief'. I'm still not 100% sold on some of the tones the HD500 produces, but I Iove the flexibility of the in/out options, it's got a looper, connects with and powers my Variax etc.  I mostly use it for gigging, and having been in gigging bands for over 30 years, I'm firmly of the opinion that hardly anyone in any audience is a guitar tone snob, they're at the gig for different reasons... 

 

But at times I do find the HD500 overcomplicated and hark back to pedalboard and tube amp days. But I know I'd miss the flexibility and connectivity options. Anyway, I'll try using the FX return and see how it goes. Thanks again for your thoughts.


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#5 radatats

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Posted 01 March 2014 - 12:40 PM

I ended up running the 1/4" from the HD500 to the DT25 FX return, and it sounded great!.

 

so from other threads i see you bypass all the controls on the DT when you go straight in to the DT FX return.  Is it still possible to control or change the topology of the power section?  If you change the topo switch on the DT it should still load whatever preamp/cab/power amp settings you have set, right?  Interesting idea as I mostly use topo III anyways...  Might save a lot of work building new patches for the DT all the frigging time...


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#6 radatats

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Posted 02 March 2014 - 01:47 PM

OK so I tried this out today.  Connected the Pod to the FX return and the DT to my PA speakers.  Changing topology switch definitely still affects power section configuration.  Tones designed for the DT sounded fine (pre models only) but full amp tones designed for FRFR sounded like crap, too much drive, boomy, not usable.  Bottom line, I would still need to make a full set of tones just for the DT separate from my FRFR set.  Defeats the purpose.  I will stick to the L6 link and keep my FRFR rig separate.  I actually love both setups... hard to really pick a favorite.  Waiting for the KXD12 to be released, I have one on order.  If it is as good as it looks I am getting two and just might sell the DT...  Much easier to take the KXD12, HD500 and JTV to a gig than dragging the DT and a 2X12 cab...  

 

We'll see...


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#7 diggerbarnz

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Posted 20 March 2014 - 10:21 AM

I have a fender fm212 dsp & I'm running thru my voicelive 3 to the guitar in on the pod - then fender says to do the following:EFFECTS LOOP: Connect PRE OUT to

the effects input and PWR IN to the effects output.
Now...no matter which jacks I use on the pod fx send & return, I get Nothing ( I tried reversing outta curiosity - just a buzz)
So where am I going wrong...from what I've read here previously, It doesn't matter how you have things set up(studio in/stack combo etc)
I also tried the "line-stomp" slider switch - @ a loss here, I need to NOT use the guitar in on front panel of fender amp as I want to bypass all it's bells n whistles...I have enough!
Hope someone can help

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#8 radatats

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Posted 20 March 2014 - 11:09 AM

If you want to totally bypass the Fender preamp section just take the POD output straight to the Fender PWR IN jack and you should be good to go.  You don't need the POD FX loop or anything different.  You are just doing all your effects and preamps in the POD and going straight to the Fender power section.

 

Use the Left 1/4 out from the POD to sum both channels to mono for your amp. 


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#9 diggerbarnz

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Posted 20 March 2014 - 02:02 PM

Thanks 4 the reply - yes - that definitely worked

 

I was worried fer nuthin Actually, in my frustration & going straight into front of ampI learned something . . .w/the modeled sound of the physical amp on acoustic( really makes the acoustics on variax stand out!)- ALSO, when running strictly 1/4 out of guitar, I can't control tremolo speed programmed to tone on Variax - I'd imagine that's the way it is

I think I prefer tweakin the amp, believe it OR not lol - then I have the extra channel for boost & don't have to program tremelo settings for a WHACK of patches. Dunno why I've been going thru PA all this time (extra weight I suppose)

Either way, thanks again for your fast & correct response


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#10 mitch103

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Posted 20 March 2014 - 04:20 PM

I've got a question along these lines. Is the best way to connect my pod hd to a 4x12 cabinet and achieve full volume levels; to run it through the effects loop return of a 50-100w amp head and then run the output of the amp head to the cabinet? Like what if I instead went: guitar-> pod-> amp IN (rather than affects loop return) ->4x12. What would be the difference?

The whole point being i like the pod hd's tones much better than my amp head's tones but I need that jam session level of volume that a little powered studio monitor just can't deliver


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#11 Charlie_Watt

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Posted 20 March 2014 - 05:03 PM

You of course cannot connect a pod directly to a 4x12 cab.  It does not contain a power amp.  It cannot drive  speakers.


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#12 mitch103

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Posted 20 March 2014 - 06:05 PM

I know this, that's why I asked what is a good way to artificially do so (by using a 100w amp head's power amp?)


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#13 cruisinon2

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Posted 20 March 2014 - 06:56 PM

I know this, that's why I asked what is a good way to artificially do so (by using a 100w amp head's power amp?)

Not sure what you mean by 'artificially'...

fx send/return, and "pre-amp out/ power amp in" are really the same thing. Either way you're bypassing the head's preamp and slaving the power section to drive a cabinet. But despite the name, don't plug an external power amp's speakers outs into the 'amp in' jack...its looking for a line level signal, and you'll fry both amps.
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#14 mitch103

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 06:36 AM

Is there anything else I could purchase to perform the same task of 'slaving the power section of the amp head to drive the cabinet'? I apologize as these must seem like really noob, unintelligent questions.


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#15 ColonelForbin

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 06:57 AM

I've got a question along these lines. Is the best way to connect my pod hd to a 4x12 cabinet and achieve full volume levels; to run it through the effects loop return of a 50-100w amp head and then run the output of the amp head to the cabinet? Like what if I instead went: guitar-> pod-> amp IN (rather than affects loop return) ->4x12. What would be the difference?

The whole point being i like the pod hd's tones much better than my amp head's tones but I need that jam session level of volume that a little powered studio monitor just can't deliver

 

What kind of amp head? Essentially, by running the POD HD output into the amp heads FX return, you are in essence, bypassing any preamp portions of your amp's head. Power amp in is the same as FX loop return, as mentioned above.

And also, to repeat the warning - NOT THE SPEAKER OUT OR INS. The power amp still has to drive the speaker. The POD cannot do this alone.

 

One thing to look at, would be the line vs amp level settings on the POD HD500. A good place to start, would be use a totally blank patch, choose a full amp model, with no FX blocks. Set your POD to studio/direct or combo/poweramp or stack/poweramp. Dial in the settings on the POD, and get yourself to a decent volume level that seems right. Possibly check any mixer settings in the POD to increase your dB boost slightly. Or add a boost compressor, something along those lines to increase the volume in the HD amp output. Crank the master volume and channel volumes on the POD until it seems about right, then try alternating between the stack/poweramp output mode and the studio/direct mode. They will sound different, because the studio direct is emulating a cabinet with a mic on it, which may not sound bad, but might not be ideal - unless you also want to be able to run that XLR from the POD to the main mix/monitor mix, recording mix, etc.

 

If you want to run an XLR from your POD HD500 to any PA or mixer, choose studio/direct. If you are going to mic your cabinet, and not run the XLR out from the POD to anything, choose combo/poweramp or stack/poweramp. This is what is happening when you run from POD to FX return OR to "amp in" on the head. In this example, your entire amp's preamp / tone stack / drive settings are being entirely bypassed, and the POD is now the preamp / drive / tone stacks.

 

The primary difference between studio/direct and stack/poweramp, is the microphone and room modelling is OFF in the stack and combo poweramp modes. IT is ON in the studio/direct modes. Think of studio/direct like being in the control room, hearing your guitar through monitors, and your amp is in another room with a mic on it. Think of combo/poweramp and stack/poweramp, as the POD is replacing the preamp of your head/amp rig, and your amp is still behaving mostly like a real amp would, and to record, or send to main mix, put an actual real mic on your cabinet.


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#16 cruisinon2

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 07:09 AM

Is there anything else I could purchase to perform the same task of 'slaving the power section of the amp head to drive the cabinet'? I apologize as these must seem like really noob, unintelligent questions.

 

Yes...any power amp will do that. Many options...plenty out there that are specifically designed for guitar rigs, others that are more geared towards PA systems, but in the end they are all doing the same thing as the power section in your head...they take the signal you feed it and drive speakers. You'll probably be better off if you look towards the ones designed for a guitar rig, as they are tailored to the task. Either way it's another piece of gear to lug around, but depending on what you choose, you might save a little weight and/or space compared to your head. Tube power amps will take up at least 2 rack spaces, and they're heavy. A Marshall 9100 for example, is 3 rack spaces and weighs 50 or 60 lbs...ditched mine years ago in the interest of remaining vertical, and staying off of an operating table. Or you can get a single rack space, solid state power amp from Rocktron that doesn't weigh any more than the 500...but power ratings will hardly be comparable to the tube units.

 

What's the "better" or "worse" choice will be debated until the end of time.


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#17 mitch103

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 09:30 AM

What kind of amp head? Essentially, by running the POD HD output into the amp heads FX return, you are in essence, bypassing any preamp portions of your amp's head. Power amp in is the same as FX loop return, as mentioned above.

And also, to repeat the warning - NOT THE SPEAKER OUT OR INS. The power amp still has to drive the speaker. The POD cannot do this alone.

 

One thing to look at, would be the line vs amp level settings on the POD HD500. A good place to start, would be use a totally blank patch, choose a full amp model, with no FX blocks. Set your POD to studio/direct or combo/poweramp or stack/poweramp. Dial in the settings on the POD, and get yourself to a decent volume level that seems right. Possibly check any mixer settings in the POD to increase your dB boost slightly. Or add a boost compressor, something along those lines to increase the volume in the HD amp output. Crank the master volume and channel volumes on the POD until it seems about right, then try alternating between the stack/poweramp output mode and the studio/direct mode. They will sound different, because the studio direct is emulating a cabinet with a mic on it, which may not sound bad, but might not be ideal - unless you also want to be able to run that XLR from the POD to the main mix/monitor mix, recording mix, etc.

 

If you want to run an XLR from your POD HD500 to any PA or mixer, choose studio/direct. If you are going to mic your cabinet, and not run the XLR out from the POD to anything, choose combo/poweramp or stack/poweramp. This is what is happening when you run from POD to FX return OR to "amp in" on the head. In this example, your entire amp's preamp / tone stack / drive settings are being entirely bypassed, and the POD is now the preamp / drive / tone stacks.

 

The primary difference between studio/direct and stack/poweramp, is the microphone and room modelling is OFF in the stack and combo poweramp modes. IT is ON in the studio/direct modes. Think of studio/direct like being in the control room, hearing your guitar through monitors, and your amp is in another room with a mic on it. Think of combo/poweramp and stack/poweramp, as the POD is replacing the preamp of your head/amp rig, and your amp is still behaving mostly like a real amp would, and to record, or send to main mix, put an actual real mic on your cabinet.

 

I should have stated earlier I have a mesa boogie dual rectifier 100w 3 channel head. My pod is a desktop version and I bought a MKII for switching channels. I like the rectifier's tone but I like mixing amp tones even better and dont have the cash to buy a real uberschall + another 4x12. I've tried running the left output from the Pod to the effects loop return on my dual rectifier like someone said to do earlier in this thread. It works great and I even get different tones/volume levels as I switch between green/orange/red channels on my rectifier while staying on the same channel on the pod. Is doing this almost the same thing as using a marshall 9100 like the above post mentioned?


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#18 cruisinon2

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 09:39 AM

I should have stated earlier I have a mesa boogie dual rectifier 100w 3 channel head. My pod is a desktop version and I bought a MKII for switching channels. I like the rectifier's tone but I like mixing amp tones even better and dont have the cash to buy a real uberschall + another 4x12. I've tried running the left output from the Pod to the effects loop return on my dual rectifier like someone said to do earlier in this thread. It works great and I even get different tones as I switch between green/orange/red channels on my rectifier while staying on the same channel on the pod. I just don't have enough understanding of how amps work to know what's actually happening.

 

Well if switching amp channels on the Boogie changes your sound, then it sounds like the Boogie's pre-amp is still contributing to your tone, which is odd. The fx return should be bypassing it. Can't say I'm positive about exactly what's going on with the signal chain either...but hey, if you like it and it's not setting anything on fire, who cares what it's doing? EVH claimed to have wired his guitar to the dimmer switch from a ceiling fan...why? Who knows...I suspect it involved large quantities of Heineken :P ...but people have been trying to reproduce his "brown" sound for going on 40 years.


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#19 mitch103

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 09:48 AM

I search for 100w power amps and it keeps coming up with things that dont have 1/4 input and output jacks, just RCA.. any advice on other options besides the marshall 9100?


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#20 cruisinon2

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 09:56 AM

I search for 100w power amps and it keeps coming up with things that dont have 1/4 input and output jacks, and advice on other options besides the marshall 9100?

 

I wasn't trying to steer you one way or the other, and as nice as that Marshall is, you'll be tired of lugging it around after the first gig. Those things sounds great, but you could anchor a small yacht with it. They should be put in a studio rack and never moved, lol.

 

Take a look at Rocktron's website, they have several options (all solid state I believe), some of which you can pick up used on eBay for less than $200...just beware, 100 solid state watts is NOT the same as 100 tube watts. 100 tube watts can usually melt concrete...solid state, not so much.

 

I've got a Carvin TS100 tube power amp I've been using for a number of years now. 2 channels, 50W a side, or 100W bridged mono. It drives a Marshall 4x12...always been loud enough.


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#21 mitch103

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 11:37 AM

Doesn't tube normally have a nicer tone as well? I know its all a matter of opinion but i've always enjoyed tube amps more than solid state. That carvin looks very nice. From a tone standpoint do you think the carvin poweramp would make much of a difference in tone than the rectifier power amp?


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#22 mitch103

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 12:30 PM

Couple more random questions about the pod hd: How do I simulate putting a pedal in the amps effects loop? What is the difference between stereo, dynamic, and digital delays.. which would be most similtar to an analogue delay?


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#23 cruisinon2

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 02:27 PM

Doesn't tube normally have a nicer tone as well? I know its all a matter of opinion but i've always enjoyed tube amps more than solid state. That carvin looks very nice. From a tone standpoint do you think the carvin poweramp would make much of a difference in tone than the rectifier power amp?

I've never played a rectifier, but it wouldn't matter if I had. There's no way to predict what will work for you and your gear, based on somebody else's experience with this amp or that amp. There's only one way to find out if you're gonna like a piece of gear or not. Sometimes that means gambling on something, and dumping it later if it doesn't work out...its like a cheaper version of marriage, lol.

As for tubes vs solid state...that argument will go on until the sun snuffs itself out. And at the end of the day, you either like it or you don't, so who cares what's in it? Purist tone-snobs will pontificate loudly and at length about how nothing but a 'vintage' tube amp will do, and that modeling amps are soul-less, tone sucking instruments of the devil. I've even heard people go on about being able to tell the difference between what kind of power tubes are in a given amp...EL34's vs 6L6's vs 5881's....blah, blah, blah. With some rare exceptions...most of these people are lying, but I digress.

Over time, tube amps are more work, and more expensive to maintain. Retubing an amp is not cheap, and as the replacements are now entirely made overseas, consistency can be an issue. They are also prone to more problems, tubes becoming microphonic, etc...and too much jostling around and something is gonna break. Also, they have a nasty way of sounding great one day and absolute crap the next. By comparison, a solid state amp will sound the same every time you turn it on, and you can throw it down a flight of stairs, and 9/10 times, it'll still work. And even if it doesn't, whatever you broke will cost pennies on the dollar to fix, compared to its tube counterpart.

I've had the Carvin for years....I like it, and I still gig with it. But my backup is the Spider IV HD150, and before that it was an ADA Microtube 200...single rack space, solid state power amp (they stuck a pair of 12ax7's in it somewhere, hence 'microtube', but its really a solid state amp). Because those things will always turn on, and always work.

But soon, I'll be going FRFR. Smaller package, and I will be able to really get the most out of the 500X and my JTV that way...just haven't decided if I wanna go with the Stagesource stuff, or something else. The price is a little steep...
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#24 mitch103

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 03:23 PM

I've never played a rectifier, but it wouldn't matter if I had. There's no way to predict what will work for you and your gear, based on somebody else's experience with this amp or that amp. There's only one way to find out if you're gonna like a piece of gear or not. Sometimes that means gambling on something, and dumping it later if it doesn't work out...its like a cheaper version of marriage, lol.

As for tubes vs solid state...that argument will go on until the sun snuffs itself out. And at the end of the day, you either like it or you don't, so who cares what's in it? Purist tone-snobs will pontificate loudly and at length about how nothing but a 'vintage' tube amp will do, and that modeling amps are soul-less, tone sucking instruments of the devil. I've even heard people go on about being able to tell the difference between what kind of power tubes are in a given amp...EL34's vs 6L6's vs 5881's....blah, blah, blah. With some rare exceptions...most of these people are lying, but I digress.

Over time, tube amps are more work, and more expensive to maintain. Retubing an amp is not cheap, and as the replacements are now entirely made overseas, consistency can be an issue. They are also prone to more problems, tubes becoming microphonic, etc...and too much jostling around and something is gonna break. Also, they have a nasty way of sounding great one day and absolute crap the next. By comparison, a solid state amp will sound the same every time you turn it on, and you can throw it down a flight of stairs, and 9/10 times, it'll still work. And even if it doesn't, whatever you broke will cost pennies on the dollar to fix, compared to its tube counterpart.

I've had the Carvin for years....I like it, and I still gig with it. But my backup is the Spider IV HD150, and before that it was an ADA Microtube 200...single rack space, solid state power amp. Because those things will always turn on, and always work.

But soon, I'll be going FRFR. Smaller package, and I will be able to really get the most out of the 500X and my JTV that way...just haven't decided if I wanna go with the Stagesource stuff, or something else. The price is a little steep...

 

Wait, you mean I can't just return my wife to the store and get my money back?? Haha! Could you take a look at my previous post concerning pod questions real quick though?


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#25 cruisinon2

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 04:12 PM

Wait, you mean I can't just return my wife to the store and get my money back?? Haha! Could you take a look at my previous post concerning pod questions real quick though?


Download the advanced guide...its all in there. There's a whole chart for each effect...explains all the parameters.
The stereo and dynamic (diff. delay times for L and R channels) delays won't do u any good unless you're running more than one cabinet, or if you run both L/R outs to a PA.
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#26 mitch103

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 06:09 PM

So in order to put my digital delay pedal in the 'simulated effects loop' I just place it AFTER the mixer?


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#27 cruisinon2

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 08:00 PM

So in order to put my digital delay pedal in the 'simulated effects loop' I just place it AFTER the mixer?


There's nothing 'simulated' about the fx loop. Its the same as any other amp...only difference is you can choose where it sits in the signal chain. Generally speaking, a delay would go after the amp model and mixer, yes. Placement depends on the effect.
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#28 mitch103

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Posted 22 March 2014 - 08:25 AM

So in essence, on the podhd's signal chain, the amp model only represents the equivalent of a preamp section of the real life version of that same amp, correct? I just switched my delay pedal from before the amp to after the mixer and it sounds SO much better..

Also, what's the difference between using the amp model & using the 'pre' version of that model? (the advanced guide said something about preamp models but I don't understand the difference, they seem to sound pretty similar)


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