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Master Volume Issues Over L6 Link

dt50 l6 link master volume hd500

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#1 Mbure

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 03:22 AM

Just got DT50 212 and it´s sounds great when I plug my guitar direct to it.

I already have a POD HD500 so to get more about this "Dream Rig" I used L6 LINK to connect them together.

The problem is how I can control the master volume, when both Master Volume is active?

The manual says that the POD HD Master Volume has no effect to the signal feed to the DT Amp, but in my case both Master Volume is active.

It´s very difficult to control the volume and when I try, they behave very strange - compare to if I plug directly to the amp.

Someone who know this problem and have a solution?

Thanks!

/ M 


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#2 phil_m

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 03:41 AM

This is expected behavior. This functionality (the HD500 master volume being active while connected via L6 Link) was added in the last HD500 update. The manual was never updated, I guess. You just have to set both wherever they work best for you.


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#3 moogary

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 04:33 AM

I thought it was in that last DT update, not HD500 update.  I may be wrong...


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#4 innovine

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 04:33 AM

I do like this. Set the pod master volume in the middle somewhere, with the channel vol a good ways up, then set the dt25 master for the final level you want to listen at. Now, if its a bit quiet or loud, there's room to adjust with the pod master. If you have level differences between patches, use the channel vol to even them out since thats saved with the patch.

If you are going to record with the direct out then the setup might be different but the above is working well for me anyway
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#5 TheRealZap

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 04:58 AM

certainly make sure you have both the DT and the pod fully updated.


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#6 Mbure

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 05:05 AM

Thanks a lot for all the quick answers!

I just read the release notes for the HD500 B) - Thanks Phil!

I will try to set the master as you describe, Innovine.

But I guess it´s still the DT50s master who controls the tube amp, and how much "analog tube sounding" you want?

I saw a clip from Line6 where they recommended to have the master at maximum for the "tube sound", and control the volume with the channel volume.

I don´t know what´s best? - but I guess I have to try to see whats best for me....


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#7 Metalchef

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 06:52 AM

If you are running current firmware in the DT 50 2x12 once you are connected via L6link I look at the pod MV as an attenuator of sorts. It allows you to control the signal level being sent from the pod. At least how it works for me.
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#8 ice9mike

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 07:11 AM

I tend to set the DT master volume between 12 and 2 o'clock. The pod master volume is usually around 12 o'clock but I vary it to suit the situation. This has allowed me to get rid of the Dr. Z airbrake I was using. It will be on Ebay soon.


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#9 innovine

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 07:11 AM

Thanks a lot for all the quick answers!

I just read the release notes for the HD500 B) - Thanks Phil!

I will try to set the master as you describe, Innovine.

But I guess it´s still the DT50s master who controls the tube amp, and how much "analog tube sounding" you want?

I saw a clip from Line6 where they recommended to have the master at maximum for the "tube sound", and control the volume with the channel volume.

I don´t know what´s best? - but I guess I have to try to see whats best for me....

 

The sad truth is, no one really knows how any of it work. I'm of the opinion that the channel volume attenuates the signal after the preamp, then come possible effects in the pod, then the pods master, then the l6 link, then the dt25 master. There is some evidence to support the idea that the power section is always running at max, and to get that tube sound, you just need to feed it a louder and louder signal, so it wont matter a whit which master knob you use. Personally, I have not been able to hear any difference at all with the pod master up, and the dt25 master down, or vice versa. I believe that the only way to get 'tube tone' is by pushing the output, ie, having it LOUD. Opinions differ on this, but personally I don't think there's any magic tube tone at low volume levels.

Searching on the forum will show up plenty of speculation on this. In the end, you'll have to make up your own mind on it. Some people claim they hear differences. I think it's wishful thinking. in my description of how i set the levels, i mentioned adjusting up and down a bit with the pod master. this is because i find it is often easier to reach, not because of any technical or tone reasons


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#10 chrishlp

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 10:03 AM

Hi,

 

set the master volume on the POD HD as high as you can, this will deliver the maximum input signal to the DT and, along with your channnel volume, will allow you to drive both the PI and the power amp valves. 

 

Cranking the DT master volume allows for more headroom (only really required on clean tones) but if your preamp (POD) input volume is low then you will not see any real benefit from this but may experience increased noise and hum (typical wen you turn the master volume on any amp to 11!).

 

If you are useing the DT at low to medium volumes (not driving the power amp tubes) the use full POD amp models and set the amp sim Master Volume, Sag, Resonance, Thump, Bias and the preamp drive to get the tone yo want (Preamp drive vs power amp compression) This is a very powerful tool in the POD/DT setup and can give you a a wide range of different tones

 

Enjoy


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#11 chrishlp

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 10:13 AM

PS 

 

Tthe only 'active' preamp control on the DT when connected to a POD HD is the reverb!  Not sure why, and I think LIne 6 need to update the DT firmware to mute this when a POD HD is connected via the L6 Link.

 

Think about the signal chain.  A power amp will only respond to the signal fed to it.  Low signal means low power amp output/distortion, high signal means high output/distortion.   Anyone who has fed a high gain signal into a mixing desk will know that the desk will distort if the signal is too high regardless of the output gain setting, a tube amp behaves in a similar way only the valve/tube distortion is more desirable/musical.

 

If you want playing dynamics, then keep the DT master volume up and contol overall volume using the POD HD channel volume as the POD HD Master Volume is constant where as the channel volume can be adjusted per patch to achieve a common gain.  This will allow you to drive the preamp stage without being constrained by the DT Master Volume setting.  This is what the guys are hearing.


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#12 TheRealZap

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 10:20 AM

that is to save you DSP.

you can leave the reverb out of your tone on the pod and let the amp handle it exclusively... allowing you more DSP flexibility in the pod.

 

Tthe only 'active' preamp control on the DT when connected to a POD HD is the reverb!  Not sure why, 


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#13 innovine

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 12:34 PM

 

Cranking the DT master volume allows for more headroom (only really required on clean tones) but if your preamp (POD) input volume is low then you will not see any real benefit from this but may experience increased noise and hum (typical wen you turn the master volume on any amp to 11!).

 

 

I do not think that this is the case, and would appreciate it if you can provide some concrete observations as to why you think it so.

 

Consider the following: the FX return is always amplified to the amps max volume, irregardless of the position of the dt master (which can be fully down!!), so the signal chain is (at least):

preamp (pod or dt)->dt master (attenuating a ~line level signal)->fx send->fx return (still line level)->power amplification->speaker

You can check this if you like by monitoring the level on the fx send.. it will go up and down as you turn the dt master volume up and down. 

 

So, what I think is happening here is that the amount of power amplification is never changed by any of the controls. The power amp just takes whatever signal it receives, and amplifies it to the max. If the signal the power amp receives is low (master volume is down) then it amplifies cleanly. If the signal it receives is hot (master volume is up a ways) then it will start to distort and distort more the hotter it gets. So I guess the headroom is fixed at a particular decibel level, and has nothing to do with the position of the master.

 

Of course, there may be class A and A/B differences, and there can easily be a degree of digital tube distortion being applied at any point, so I don't know the above for sure. But there are some easily observable facts mentioned which I encourage you to consider. Also, if I have made any errors or my ideas can be refuted, please feel free to do so in the spirit of understanding this thing. 

 

 

I am _so_ going to hook up a sine wave generator soon and measure the total harmonic distortion levels at different positions of the master(s). I'm moving out of this apartment in June and will relocate my studio from living room to garage and can then conduct tests with the amp cranked. Can't wait :)


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#14 chrishlp

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Posted 24 March 2014 - 08:42 AM

Hi Innovine,

 

You have some serious scientific experiments planned, so would love to know the results!

 

The basis for my view ties in with your comments on input gain.  My understanding is that the DT Master Volume attenuates gain to the Phase Inverter valve not the Power Valves.  Driving the PI valve delivers part fo the classic 'power amp' tone along with speaker distortion (see this link - http://www.guitaramp...aseinverter.pdf ).  If the input signal is too low to drive the PI valve then the power amp will not compress/distort, nore will the speaker.

 

Crank the DT MV but then feed a low input signal to it will give you a poor signal to noise ratio increasing the sense of noise in the heard sound (interestingly I just did this on my DT25 and biy the amp has a really good S/N ratio, a lot better than some other serious $$ amps out there!).

 

The headroom issue is simple.  Provided you are not clipping your preamp stage, then maximum MV should always give you more headroom on a clean tone and more dynamics.


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#15 radatats

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Posted 24 March 2014 - 09:02 AM

now one would think this might be a perfect place for a product specialist to pipe in and give us the real factory details... (face palm) what was I thinking?  LOL...


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