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Stagescape + In-ear Monitor Setup. How?

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#1 craigmoleski

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Posted 28 May 2013 - 08:20 AM

Hey guys,

 

We're looking to purchase the StageScape as a monitor board for our band. The main reason would be to run our monitors via In-ear monitor system. We already have all proper cables and everything for currently running a wired in-ear system with a stereo headphone amp from another digital board currently. 

 

I am familiar with this world of technology, but not enough after reading everything with the StageScape to identify how I can run it, if possible. And if so, if I need a headphone amp separately or not. 

 

We would want to have 4 stereo monitor mixes, that we can pan different instruments in our ears. 

 

Anyone doing this? 


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#2 antonioctd

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Posted 28 May 2013 - 09:23 AM

I can only see the M20d doing 3 stereo mixes.

 

Monitor A+B

Monitor C+D

Main mix

 

If one of you are willing to share the mix you can take a copy of main mix from the phones out. 

 

If you're using wireless in-ear monitor systems you din't need an amp. Just plug the M20d straight in to the emitters.

 

If it's wired in-ears you'll need an amp. 


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#3 Digital-sound

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Posted 28 May 2013 - 12:03 PM

If you can live without stereo, you can just run any mix to your in ear system. We use a female XLR to male 1/4" cord. I don't use in ears anymore, but our drummer does. Still sends the signal to both ears, but not true stereo. We don't run in stereo anyway. We use a shure system, and I think it is only "mono in" anyway. Not even sure. Takes regular stereo headphones out, so like I said, you get it in both ears, just can't pan things to either side. But we get all four individual mixes though. To me, that is better than sharing the same stereo mix. You won't get four individual stereo mixes from the M20D.
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#4 antonioctd

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Posted 28 May 2013 - 12:30 PM

If you can live without stereo, you can just run any mix to your in ear system. We use a female XLR to male 1/4" cord. I don't use in ears anymore, but our drummer does. Still sends the signal to both ears, but not true stereo. We don't run in stereo anyway. We use a shure system, and I think it is only "mono in" anyway. Not even sure. Takes regular stereo headphones out, so like I said, you get it in both ears, just can't pan things to either side. But we get all four individual mixes though. To me, that is better than sharing the same stereo mix. You won't get four individual stereo mixes from the M20D.

 

 

Really? You can run phones straight form the monitor outs with just an adapter? And you get sound in both ears? 

 

That is great news for me! I was planing to put the all band using in-ears for a while but was considering the costs of the system... 

 

PS - I don't really understand what's the big deal with stereo for in-ear monitoring...


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#5 Digital-sound

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Posted 28 May 2013 - 12:55 PM

Really? You can run phones straight form the monitor outs with just an adapter? And you get sound in both ears? 
 
That is great news for me! I was planing to put the all band using in-ears for a while but was considering the costs of the system... 
 
PS - I don't really understand what's the big deal with stereo for in-ear monitoring...


No, not right from the board. Prettybsure you need a preamp of some type. We use the xlr to 1/4" which plugs into the Shure PSM200. It is the hybrid and does wireless if you have the transmitter. Then you could plug it into that. We plug straight into the receiver and that has a volume control on it. So it boost the signal. And it also provides the sound in both ears from a mono input. I don't know if you would get that if you ran straight from the board. I also don't think you would get much volume.
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#6 tochiro

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Posted 28 May 2013 - 11:03 PM

PS - I don't really understand what's the big deal with stereo for in-ear monitoring...

I use an IEM system with the M20D (nice tool by the way) and I tried both mono and stereo in my ears.  The difference is incredible and I will never use a mono signal again.  Stereo is not only a question of being able to pan left or right.  The main advantage is first the quality of the sound and the feeling of space you get.  Try both and you'll see :-)


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#7 antonioctd

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 12:16 AM

I use an IEM system with the M20D (nice tool by the way) and I tried both mono and stereo in my ears.  The difference is incredible and I will never use a mono signal again.  Stereo is not only a question of being able to pan left or right.  The main advantage is first the quality of the sound and the feeling of space you get.  Try both and you'll see :-)

 

I know that. Sometimes I do POP big gigs has a hired guitar player for artists.

I've tried the stereo thing.

 

Yes It's cool! Like i'ts cool to listen to music in stereo, that's why it was invented :rolleyes: 

 

But for monitoring proposes I thing it brings nothing to the table. I can ear and play my parts the same with mono or stereo ;)   


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#8 Digital-sound

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 09:58 AM


I use an IEM system with the M20D (nice tool by the way) and I tried both mono and stereo in my ears. The difference is incredible and I will never use a mono signal again. Stereo is not only a question of being able to pan left or right. The main advantage is first the quality of the sound and the feeling of space you get. Try both and you'll see :-)

If you are not panning instruments to one ear or the other, and you are not using a keyboard or other source that is using two inputs (ie a left and right coming from the instrument to the board) then there is no sense using two outputs. If you have two outputs, at the same level, with the same instruments at the same level in each output, then there is no advantage to using two aux outs, over using one aux out and splitting the signal to each ear using any basic IEM system. They all split a mono signal into two signals(each ear). No point in using the board to do that. Any basic band, with no electronic instruments or backing tracks, will NOT benefit from using two aux outs unless they want to pan the instruments to different ears. That may be awesome, I haven't tried it. I use a floor monitor. Our drummer uses IEM and we only give him one channel, and he loves it. And we only use standard guitars, bass and mics, so no stereo there. He would probably love to pan, but not enough aux outs.
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#9 tochiro

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 10:14 AM

There are many reasons why stereo just sounds far better than mono.  For instance, I use my electric guitar in stereo with my HD500 via stereo FXs.  I am also a singer and my voice is much easier to acoustically locate in my head when the signal is stereo even if I don't pan it.  But of course when you sing in harmony with other singers then stereo enables you to control the voices more effectively.  The drums in stereo is also much more realistic, etc.  Generally you feel you are more integrated and part of the music and I'd never go back to mono now.


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#10 litesnsirens

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 12:52 PM

I don't know.  The voice is a single voice why would it be in stereo (maybe effects not the voice).  I'm also not a huge fan of doing wide pans on the drums, even for recording, nevermind live.  When the drummer plays a kit they aren't spread from one wall to the other, it's basically a single instrument. Depending on how big the kit is it maybe spans 5 or 6 feet ... My guitar is probably a 3 and a half to 4 feet (funny I have never measured it) but I don't pan the low frets to the left and the higher frets to the right, so why do we do this with drums?

 

I'm also not a big fan of stereo for live performances, why should people on the left side of the venue hear things differently than people on the right.  Stereo can definitely assist with spacial reference... for someone who is sitting in the sweet spot.  Which works for the home stereo, or for headphones and ipods.  For live sound not so much.... not a fan.  Even in the car I have to mess with the balance to make is sound right to me since the drivers seat is on the left side of the car, I hear left speakers more than right if I just left the balance control in the middle.

 

So can you create a more interesting monitor mix for IEMs utilizing stereo... sure.  But that's a luxury that to me would just take too much time and isn't necessary at all.  I think there are many of us who have no problem singing and picking out our vocals whether using IEMs or plain old floor wedges.  Been doing it for years and years and managed.

 

SO ... while I don't want to take away from those who want to take the time to set up stereo IEM mixes, fill your boots if you want to, but to me it's just a little over the top, I would never bother, even if I had a setup that could handle it.


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#11 Digital-sound

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 07:27 PM

There are many reasons why stereo just sounds far better than mono.  For instance, I use my electric guitar in stereo with my HD500 via stereo FXs.  I am also a singer and my voice is much easier to acoustically locate in my head when the signal is stereo even if I don't pan it.  But of course when you sing in harmony with other singers then stereo enables you to control the voices more effectively.  The drums in stereo is also much more realistic, etc.  Generally you feel you are more integrated and part of the music and I'd never go back to mono now.


With one voice, unless you are using stereo effects, (again L and R), it is not stereo. Maybe it is in both ears, but that happens with one Aux out too. If you are actually noticing a difference, or really enjoying it that much more, then you are running stereo into your two aux outs. Maybe with stereo effect? I don't know your set up, but if you take a dry vocal, that is going into one channel, and then send it out aux A into an IEM system, coming into both ears, it will sound the same if you take that same vocal, and run it out auxA and auxB, at the same levels, into an IEM, and to both ears.
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#12 Digital-sound

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 07:30 PM

I don't know.  The voice is a single voice why would it be in stereo (maybe effects not the voice).  I'm also not a huge fan of doing wide pans on the drums, even for recording, nevermind live.  When the drummer plays a kit they aren't spread from one wall to the other, it's basically a single instrument. Depending on how big the kit is it maybe spans 5 or 6 feet ... My guitar is probably a 3 and a half to 4 feet (funny I have never measured it) but I don't pan the low frets to the left and the higher frets to the right, so why do we do this with drums?
 
I'm also not a big fan of stereo for live performances, why should people on the left side of the venue hear things differently than people on the right.  Stereo can definitely assist with spacial reference... for someone who is sitting in the sweet spot.  Which works for the home stereo, or for headphones and ipods.  For live sound not so much.... not a fan.  Even in the car I have to mess with the balance to make is sound right to me since the drivers seat is on the left side of the car, I hear left speakers more than right if I just left the balance control in the middle.
 
So can you create a more interesting monitor mix for IEMs utilizing stereo... sure.  But that's a luxury that to me would just take too much time and isn't necessary at all.  I think there are many of us who have no problem singing and picking out our vocals whether using IEMs or plain old floor wedges.  Been doing it for years and years and managed.
 
SO ... while I don't want to take away from those who want to take the time to set up stereo IEM mixes, fill your boots if you want to, but to me it's just a little over the top, I would never bother, even if I had a setup that could handle it.


Agree 100% (but I can't be bothered messing with the car audio. But I have! Just resist now).
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#13 antonioctd

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 03:47 AM

I don't know.  The voice is a single voice why would it be in stereo (maybe effects not the voice).  I'm also not a huge fan of doing wide pans on the drums, even for recording, nevermind live.  When the drummer plays a kit they aren't spread from one wall to the other, it's basically a single instrument. Depending on how big the kit is it maybe spans 5 or 6 feet ... My guitar is probably a 3 and a half to 4 feet (funny I have never measured it) but I don't pan the low frets to the left and the higher frets to the right, so why do we do this with drums?

 

I'm also not a big fan of stereo for live performances, why should people on the left side of the venue hear things differently than people on the right.  Stereo can definitely assist with spacial reference... for someone who is sitting in the sweet spot.  Which works for the home stereo, or for headphones and ipods.  For live sound not so much.... not a fan.  Even in the car I have to mess with the balance to make is sound right to me since the drivers seat is on the left side of the car, I hear left speakers more than right if I just left the balance control in the middle.

 

So can you create a more interesting monitor mix for IEMs utilizing stereo... sure.  But that's a luxury that to me would just take too much time and isn't necessary at all.  I think there are many of us who have no problem singing and picking out our vocals whether using IEMs or plain old floor wedges.  Been doing it for years and years and managed.

 

SO ... while I don't want to take away from those who want to take the time to set up stereo IEM mixes, fill your boots if you want to, but to me it's just a little over the top, I would never bother, even if I had a setup that could handle it.

 

+1

 

Monitoring is a tool that allows the player to hear what he needs to be able to play his parts. It's not supposed to be cool or sound like a CD.

 

In fact I've been using less and less monitoring as years go by...

 I now use only Me, snare (on larger stages) and a tiny bit of vocals (just enough to understand the lyrics in case I get lost).

That's it. I can get the rest from the PA and back line of the other musicians!

 

Every body asks "why the snare?" because I'm a guitar player and my place is over the snare. I should leave the kick to the bassist! 

And I don't need the kick on monitors to know were it is! I can feel it vibrating under my feet with all the subs.   :rolleyes:

 

By the way, I avoid in-ears every time I can  :D


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#14 samjl2008

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 03:12 PM

Going back to Craigmolski's other question, you can run your IEMs wired straights to the xlr monitor outs (if you'd like to do that in stereo pairs or not is a whole other kettle of fish!).

All you need is an xlr to 1/4 inch adapter (from maplins for about £5) and a suitably long extension - two members of my band have run their IEMs like this with great success; it's cheap and requires only a minor purchase or two beyond the mixer itself. No need for an external headphone/pre-amp as was suggested above by antoniocd.

That being said, once you've got the money - go wireless, you'll love it!!! Good luck with it and I'd be interested to hear what set up you end up going with :)
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#15 Digital-sound

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 02:42 PM

Going back to Craigmolski's other question, you can run your IEMs wired straights to the xlr monitor outs (if you'd like to do that in stereo pairs or not is a whole other kettle of fish!).
All you need is an xlr to 1/4 inch adapter (from maplins for about £5) and a suitably long extension - two members of my band have run their IEMs like this with great success; it's cheap and requires only a minor purchase or two beyond the mixer itself. No need for an external headphone/pre-amp as was suggested above by antoniocd.
That being said, once you've got the money - go wireless, you'll love it!!! Good luck with it and I'd be interested to hear what set up you end up going with :)


What are they using for an IEM system? We couldn't get it to work straight into headphones at an acceptable level when the band played. We plug into the shure belt pack which takes a 1/4" plug, and then out to the "in ears". But are you connecting straight to your headphones from the board? I thought it was only a line level signal coming out of the auxiliaries.
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#16 samjl2008

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 05:22 PM

Hi Digital-Sound,
My bandmates are using the Shure SE-215 and 315s but I just checked this with my ACS T-15s too and it worked fine, plenty loud enough with a decent headroom. I'm not too sure why this didn't work for you, do you have a decent isolation from your IEMs? And I think you're correct that it's a line level signal (its too late for me to crack out the manual to check) but depending on the Source impedance of the monitor outs and the impedance of your IEMs this could well be sufficient - and is sufficient for the above sets of in ear monitors; which is good news for most :)

I suspect that these monitor outs weren't designed for being used in this way - but is working well for these sets of IEMs. I'm running a couple of sets of IEMs for those with them and then two floor wedge monitors for those that prefer them - the inputs of my floor wedges are line level and they're receiving a decent signal without noise which suggests its a line level output from the desk. What monitors did you use and how did you connect them?
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#17 RonMarton

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 08:33 AM

I've found that most experienced performers and engineers agree that stereo is truly wonderful for an all-encompassing sense of placement and "image", (given the time to set it properly) but high quality mono is all that's really required for performers to correctly assess and maintain balance, tempo and pitch...

...however...

I'm wondering if the main issue here shouldn't be that craigmoleski and friends are "...looking to purchase the StageScape as a monitor board..."

Line 6's M20d is a fabulously intuitive system that not only provides total control of performance sound for the entire venue, but also guarantees that the time and effort spent to arrive at "the sound" need only be taken once, ...as hundreds of such painstaking set-ups can be stored and recalled at will.

Given that the group "...already have all proper cables and everything for currently running a wired in-ear system...", I'd heartily endorse their purchase of an entire StageScape system for their gigs, but perhaps the stereo in-ear part of their proposed set-up may be better served by something along these lines:

http://www.jamhub.co...ub-bedroom.html

http://www.bhphotovi...sal_Studio.html


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