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To Sub Or Not To Sub, That Is The Question...

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#1 LDBecker

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 08:48 PM

Ok - to paraphrase several on this forum, I think I'm in deep. 

 

I traded in my Presonus 16.4.2, Mackie 450v2's and Mackie 1801 sub on the M20d and 2 3Lt's - and I'm wondering about the sub.

 

I often found the Mackie 1801 to be a bit, well, boomy - not tight, not well-integrated with the other speakers. It was OK, but not great, and I often didn't use it. It wasn't that expensive, so I didn't feel to badly about that. Also, in some of our outdoor church services - specifically the upcoming Easter Sunrise service, I'm not sure how helpful it was. We do it in a courtyard that's maybe 50' wide, 120' long, with brick walls on each side and back, concrete floor, and open sky on top. The one year I tried the Mackie sub it seemed to make things kind of muddy.

 

I'm gathering the L3s will integrate well with the whole ecosystem.

 

The kind of music we play on it is more contemporary Christian, with me on acoustic guitar, a keyboard, bass guitar, 3 vocalists and now a drum set. We get a little rowdy sometimes, and as I introduce my JT69 later this year, maybe a bit more so.

 

I also use the system for off-site weddings and will use it for classical music, keyboards, and so on, as well as occasionally for dance music/DJ sorts of things.

 

Trying to decide...

 

Larry


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#2 RonMarton

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 01:03 AM

...And the answer, Larry, is...

 

(Drum roll, please.)

 

YES ! 

 

(Boom-tish !) 

 

I think you should get an L3s. Definitely. Certainly. Unequivocally. Without a trace of doubt...

 

...er, ...um, ...ah, ...provided that the all-important funds are available.

 

While (IMHO) Mackie's 1801 certainly was (and remains) an excellent value-for-money item, ...I feel that in comparison to a StageSource L3s it could very well be described as having a relationship equivalent to the notional one that a stick of chewing gum might bear to a perfectly cooked steak. :lol:

 

In other words, I feel I can pretty much guarantee that the differences in clarity, "reach" and effortless power gained from the addition of just one correctly-placed and Line 6 Linked L3s will prove to be an absolute joy...

 

...and isn't "joy" what it's all supposed to be about ? 


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#3 tinorios

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 02:35 AM

Since we are in a paraphrasing mood ...

 

"The answer my friend is blowing in the wind. The answer is blowing in the wind."

 

Why don't you avail yourself of Line 6 free speaker trial as explained by Line6Tony here: http://line6.com/sup...-like-for-free/

 

Play them in your courtyard. Play them in your church.  Play them in the wind.

 

You will know the answer!


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#4 litesnsirens

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 04:29 AM

tonorios' idea is great... but I tend to side more with Ron on this one.  I can't think of any scenario in which I wouldn't want my L3s'.  The only time I don't use any is if I am going to just bring an L3t to a jam session to use as a guitar/vocal amp.  Anytime I am playing anywhere that requires the use of my PA at least one L3s is coming with me.  And here is the beauty of it, it never sounds boomy.  All I do is plug it in and set all the speakers main volumes at the centre detent position and go.  No EQ'ing out the boom, no lowering the level of the sub to compensate for the boom, just plug it in and go.  It's that easy.  And yes I have used other subs in the past that caused the same issues you are talking about. 

 

I will also say they substantially increase your headroom.   Going from no L3s to one L3s = a huge improvement in overall sound (unless the only thing you are running through your system is vocals and guitar) and a huge jump in headroom.  Going from one L3s to two L3s', maybe a bit of improvement in sound but one sounds great already so the sound quality is less noticeable going from 1 to 2.  But you do get another huge increase in headroom and coverage.  I simply cannot see a downside to owning an L3s if you have a dreamscape system.   Now, having said all that, it is totally possible that you may find yourself in a room that causes issues with the low frequencies, but I imagine it would be easy enough to tame that with the main out eq on the M20d.  It's just that I personally have yet to play a room with THIS system in which I needed to tame the bass with these subs.

 

GET ONE!!!!


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#5 jaminjimlp

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 06:19 AM

OK, "THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS:" If you were only putting a guitar and vocals through it then all you would need would be L2T's unless your a quartet then you would need the L3T's if you wanted to here your bass quartet singers voice good you'l need the L3S also if you have a bass running though the system you need the L3S, If you run vocals, guitar, bass and electronic drums through your "dream stage" system (like we do, and it sounds phenomenal) you'l need 2- L3S's 2- L3T's and 3 or 4 L2T's for monitors (like we have) and if you want to play tracks through it....

 

SO IT SOUNDS LIKE TO ME YOU NEED IT!!!


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#6 tinorios

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 06:59 AM

Based on Ron's, Litesnsirens' and Jim's excellent recommendations which I wholeheartedly agree with, and to paraphrase even more (Nike this time):

 

Just Do It!


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#7 Digital-sound

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 08:48 AM

The l3s is an extension of the L3t and makes a great, and complete, "speaker". The L3T is great on its own, but together, with the L3s you have the best sound. You don't get the "boomy" you are thinking of. You can, but it is easy to take out and you are left with a beautiful, tight sound. And by "take out" I don't mean "hunt down the frequency". Just try some different presets, and you will probably be okay, or, in tweak mode slide you finger around, and failing that....there is the EQ, but I will be surprised if you need it. You will find a great sound with the combination of the speakers.

Buy and enjoy!
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#8 LDBecker

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 09:30 AM

Ok, Ok!!!!  You've convinced me! Sheesh!!!! Like I wasn't expecting this kind of response from this board!!!

 

On order from Sweetwater- should be here Wednesday... along with the cover and a short pole. Was intending to order the long one as well but it was out of stock.

 

Which pole do you folks use? I would think it would be a little difficult to single-handedly hoist an L3t on top of an L3s that's in the vertical position on a long pole, no? I guess a follow-on question - do you use the L3s mostly in horizontal or vertical mode?

 

Also - I kept my old sub pole, which is adjustable for different heights - I'm guessing that won't work?

 

Tinorios - none of the stores that offer a free trial (and/or have anything in stock) are anywhere near me, and I kind of wanted it next week...

 

Ron - funds available - done... The 1801 WAS a good price, but I had to constantly turn it down to keep things from getting too muddy. It was "Ok," but not great.

 

jaminjimlp - running an electronic keyboard, line out from a bass guitar amp along with 4 singers and an acoustic guitar for now, JTV69 as soon as I'm comfortable playing it in public (it's a WHOLE different thing than my 45 years of acoustic playing have me conditioned to do)

 

Digital-Sound - fellow Canadian and former Presonus user - thanks for the encouragement and insight into de-boomy-ing the thing!

 

litesnsirens - (police? fire? ambulance?) yes - headroom! 

 

Thanks all so much -

 

Larry


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#9 Digital-sound

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 11:27 AM

As for pole type, it will depend on where you have it. I have used them on a stage, and just set the L3T on the L3s (mine didn't move, but a short pole would be recommended. On the floor, I ise the long line6 pole, but, I still feel it is just a little on the short side. But it is what I use. If you have the space, you could get a nice crank stand. Lower to it it on the pole, but able to crank to the height you want. It osnt too much of a struggle to get it on the long line6 pole.

I usually use the sub in its "upright" position. Mostly due to space, and to have the L3t at a height I can accept.

And yes, I have used the subs right on the stage. Something I would have never done with an LS801! Partly because of the "boomy" you are familiar with, and partly because they are so darn heavy!
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#10 litesnsirens

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 11:28 AM

Police, and also a fellow Canadian.  I typically use the short poles, I have both.  Regular poles won't work as the line 6 ones are threaded.  I always use the L3s in the upright position, mainly for the smaller footprint.   There are times when the extra height of the long pole is required, but in most rooms the short pole works just fine.


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#11 LDBecker

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 12:41 PM

Digital-sound and litesnsirens - ok- now I don't feel bad about just getting the short pole. I was also feeling like a bit of a wuss for not wanting to lift these things so high... Guess I won't have to worry about that.
I think I would normally use it upright as well.
Just noticing that the sub is over 80lbs! My former Mackie was about 75 and was awful to move. I love how Line 6 put wheels and handles on theirs. That kind of attention to detail means a lot...

Larry
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#12 scotterp

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 01:16 PM

The built-in wheels on the L3s's help a LOT! It doesn't feel like 80lbs with those on there. It's also not a boxy as many other subs so it seems easier to lift for me. 

 

I have one L3s and have used it both upright and on its side. I bought a 3rd party pole with a crank. This is helpful when the L3s is on its side. I've also used the same pole (in its lowest position) with the L3s standing upright. It was a semi-outdoor gig with very high ceiling. And, I've sat my L3t on top with no short pole. I don't have that. Like Digitalsound, it did not move at all. 

 

Lots of options available. 

 

Scott

(Canuck in Arizona)


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#13 LDBecker

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 01:51 PM

Ok - what's with all the Canucks here? Me (in California), Digital-sound, litesnsirens, scotterp in AZ - maybe something in our DNA attracts us to good equipment? And then there's the Aussies - With Ron being such an advocate, I bet there are quite a few from Down Under on the board as well.

 

scotterp - trying to move around my former Mackie sub on my own (a common occurrence - after the gig - "Where did everybody go?") was a back injury waiting to happen - just too bulky and not really much to hold onto. The wheels, size and handholds will really help a lot! With the L3s - just pop the cover on, wheel it off to wherever...

 

I have a really nice set of pneumatic speaker stands from Ultimate (TS-100's) that helps heft up the L3t's to the appropriate height, so I'm ok on the other speaker - should be alright with the short pole on the L3s.

 

Larry


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#14 silverhead

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 02:42 PM

I use the L3s in upright position with the short pole and L3t on top.

 

(.... and I'm another Canuck.... :) )


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#15 RonMarton

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 02:50 PM

...and I had to obtain a "Special Clearance" certificate from the RCMP as part of the gruelling acceptance procedure for access to this forum.


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#16 silverhead

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 02:57 PM

.... don't make us bring out the beavers..... :D


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#17 tomtheguitarguy

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 07:36 PM

Since we are in a paraphrasing mood ...

 

"The answer my friend is blowing in the wind. The answer is blowing in the wind."

 

Why don't you avail yourself of Line 6 free speaker trial as explained by Line6Tony here: http://line6.com/sup...-like-for-free/

 

Play them in your courtyard. Play them in your church.  Play them in the wind.

 

You will know the answer!

 

I signed up for the "try it for free" trial when Line 6 sent me an email about it.  When I was finally contacted by my local dealer, this is what my experience entailed:

 

This "try it for free" trial is really not a try it for free - you still have to use your credit card to put down a deposit - which is the amount of the speaker itself.  Then you only get one day to try it out. And then return it.

 

With the multitude of other retailers - Guitar Center, Zzounds.com, Sweetwater.com, AmericanMusicalSupply.com, etc - having a 30 - 45 day satisfaction / return policy, this "try it for free" trial from Line 6 really isn't "all that".  I could order from zzounds or american musical supply on their "payment plans" where they split the payment into 3 or 4 installments and shell out less money than the Line 6 "try it for free" program.

 

At least that's my experience.  Maybe others have had a different experience...

 

Tom


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#18 jaminjimlp

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Posted 11 April 2014 - 01:08 AM

I have both size poles as well. most of the time you won't need the long poles but if you get in a situation where there is a lot of people in front of the band and you are on the ground and not on a stage you will need those long poles to get the sound to the back of the room or the back of the lot.

 

Also one day I would love to have 2 more L3S's and 2more L3T's and lay them bad boys on there side with the L3t's on top (looks so cool) and have 10,000 watts to pump "ON DEMAND"  :P  B)  :o ;)

Line6-StageSource-Speaker.jpg

 


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#19 Digital-sound

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Posted 11 April 2014 - 07:21 AM

I have both size poles as well. most of the time you won't need the long poles but if you get in a situation where there is a lot of people in front of the band and you are on the ground and not on a stage you will need those long poles to get the sound to the back of the room or the back of the lot.

Also one day I would love to have 2 more L3S's and 2more L3T's and lay them bad boys on there side with the L3t's on top (looks so cool) and have 10,000 watts to pump "ON DEMAND" :P B) :o ;)
Line6-StageSource-Speaker.jpg

I too dream of this set up! Each time it begins to creep to the top of my mind, I schedule a session with my counsellor! For me, my sound/band/and lighting is all a hobby. I kid my self and say that it pays for itself. Pretty sure the "costs" are kicking the crap out of the "income"!

But I really enjoy it!
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#20 tinorios

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Posted 11 April 2014 - 05:07 PM

I signed up for the "try it for free" trial when Line 6 sent me an email about it.  When I was finally contacted by my local dealer, this is what my experience entailed:

 

This "try it for free" trial is really not a try it for free - you still have to use your credit card to put down a deposit - which is the amount of the speaker itself.  Then you only get one day to try it out. And then return it.

 

With the multitude of other retailers - Guitar Center, Zzounds.com, Sweetwater.com, AmericanMusicalSupply.com, etc - having a 30 - 45 day satisfaction / return policy, this "try it for free" trial from Line 6 really isn't "all that".  I could order from zzounds or american musical supply on their "payment plans" where they split the payment into 3 or 4 installments and shell out less money than the Line 6 "try it for free" program.

 

At least that's my experience.  Maybe others have had a different experience...

 

Tom

 

Hi Tom,

 

Thank you for your feedback. I guess that program sounded "too good to be true". If one is allowed only one day to try out the speaker, that is not enough. Also, charging your credit card right off the bat is not appealing either. Like the old saying, the devil is in the details.

 

Buying the speaker on line to try it out and then, returning it is not entirely painless either. You have to pay shipping for the return. Returning one L3s from Los Angeles to say, Sweetwater in Fort Wayne, Indiana is about $87.63 for an 83 pounds package, maybe with additional charges. The smallest amount was $42.87 for someone closer. The UPS information on cost was a little overwhelming, but at least I wanted to have an idea of the cost. Also, I think Sweetwater will charge you for the original shipment to you if you return an item to them (Sweetwater). This is a quote from their "No Hassle" Return Policy: ..."If your purchase was eligible for free shipping, the shipment cost will be deducted from your credit or refund." They might get better rates as a volume customer to UPS or whoever they use than we would as residential customers, but it still going to add to the cost of trying out the speaker.

 

So, it looks like there is no really good way to try out the speakers under your own conditions, specially if you live far from big cities with large music stores that may carry the speakers in their inventory. May be not so much your case and Larry's living in LA, but certainly my case living in my town. 

 

So, maybe my suggestion was not a good one after all. But, I did enjoy the Bob Dylan reference.


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#21 tomtheguitarguy

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Posted 11 April 2014 - 10:54 PM

Hi Tom,
 
Thank you for your feedback. I guess that program sounded "too good to be true". If one is allowed only one day to try out the speaker, that is not enough. Also, charging your credit card right off the bat is not appealing either. Like the old saying, the devil is in the details.
 
Buying the speaker on line to try it out and then, returning it is not entirely painless either. You have to pay shipping for the return. Returning one L3s from Los Angeles to say, Sweetwater in Fort Wayne, Indiana is about $87.63 for an 83 pounds package, maybe with additional charges. The smallest amount was $42.87 for someone closer. The UPS information on cost was a little overwhelming, but at least I wanted to have an idea of the cost. Also, I think Sweetwater will charge you for the original shipment to you if you return an item to them (Sweetwater). This is a quote from their "No Hassle" Return Policy: ..."If your purchase was eligible for free shipping, the shipment cost will be deducted from your credit or refund." They might get better rates as a volume customer to UPS or whoever they use than we would as residential customers, but it still going to add to the cost of trying out the speaker.
 
So, it looks like there is no really good way to try out the speakers under your own conditions, specially if you live far from big cities with large music stores that may carry the speakers in their inventory. May be not so much your case and Larry's living in LA, but certainly my case living in my town. 
 
So, maybe my suggestion was not a good one after all. But, I did enjoy the Bob Dylan reference.


You are right about the shipping, but even at $80-100, (and having only to pay 1/3 to 1/4 of the price with the payment plan) I wouldn't mind trying something out for 30/45 days and only pay $80-$100) rent - especially if the odds are good that I would probably keep it.

I was just really wanting to comment on the "try it free" trial that is being "recommended" so much and share my experience.

I wish it were a better deal...
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#22 tinorios

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Posted 12 April 2014 - 04:05 AM

I was just really wanting to comment on the "try it free" trial that is being "recommended" so much and share my experience.

I wish it were a better deal...

 

Yes. It is very disappointing.


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#23 SiWatts69

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 02:55 AM

Back to poles...

I don't have the Line6 poles.

We have (so far) always run the L3s on their sides, then using two K&M "distanz poles" into the two threaded sockets.

Onto one we mount the L3m and the second is used for a small lighting t-bar with LED pars.

21367 Distance Rod »Ring Lock« - black to mount L3m
http://produkte.k-m....Ring-Lock-black

26736 DISTANCE ROD - black PLUS 213/3 EXTENSION ROD - black to mount lighting t-bar
http://produkte.k-m....TANCE-ROD-black
http://produkte.k-m....NSION-ROD-black

Using adjustable poles means we can always get the horn (vertical centre of the L3m/t cab) at 6'6" for the best throw.

The only time we'll not use the above setup is when we're not on a perfectly level floor (eg outside) at which point I have stands that will replace the poles. Not needed them yet, but we have a marquee gig coming up in May so will be running the stands out then.

As to whether or not to get the subs... I wouldn't consider running without at least one but have so far only run out the full rig. Last gig we had it a little boomy, so selected the "Lounge Music" preset and took about 1/2 a mark off the gains on the backs of the subs... at which point it sounded sweet :-)
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#24 LDBecker

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 09:57 AM

SiWatts69,

 

Those poles are pretty cool!  Watched the video from the company and the way the lock into place seems pretty secure.  Using one of the sockets for your light pole is genius!

 

I'm a little apprehensive about my first run with the sub - It will be in a REALLY live space- brick on 1 side and behind us, glass and stucco on the other side, concrete and tile on the floor, open air above.  Doing a major rehearsal in the space on Saturday to get a feel for it. I expect to be fiddling with the sound a bit.

 

Larry


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#25 SiWatts69

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 11:06 AM

SiWatts69,
 
Those poles are pretty cool!  Watched the video from the company and the way the lock into place seems pretty secure.  Using one of the sockets for your light pole is genius!


I don't think I'm alone in mounting a second pole to run a set of lights from.Attached File  ZOE_0008.jpg   180.73KB   1 downloads

In the venue above, the ceiling was low and we maxed out without putting any lift on the K&M poles. Out the box though, the horn in the L3 is at approx. 6'6" with the sub on its side and the K&M 21367 on it's first fix point which is pretty much spot on for good throw full frequency. Any lower and the upper frequencies can get blocked by the front of your crowd.

The Ring Lock mounts are pretty awesome. Once tightened, the L3m ain't going anywhere! Very solid connection.
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#26 jaminjimlp

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 04:42 AM

Hey Si, I remember when you were talking about doing the light thing and I see what you mean now, thanks for posting the pic that is self explanatory, also thanks for the info on the poles, I have both sizes of the Line 6 poles.

 

That set up looks great but one question as I remember someone (may have been DB or Ron) talking about getting the subs up off the ground for some reason and that was why they stand up as well as lay down. Someone please clarify....

 

Now I want that as well.... Love it!!! 


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#27 SiWatts69

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 05:41 AM

one question as I remember someone (may have been DB or Ron) talking about getting the subs up off the ground for some reason


IIRC, when the subs are laid flat you help empower their bass effect. Stood upright, the effect of the bass is minimally reduced BUT I seem to recall seeing somewhere that a lot of people believe the effect to be more psychological than actual.

I've actually (yesterday) ordered up a pair of each of the Line6 poles. Doubt they'll get used very often but better to have them for those occasions where we're somewhere with a low ceiling! They can live in the bags and be dragged out if necessary.

I have to admit that like so many others, I'd love to double up what I've got and have the twin subs with twin L3's either side... but that's just another pipedream! Just heard today, the first outing for my rig where we'd be fully able to let what I've got at present flex its muscles has just been culled due to a lack of funding for the whole event. Gotta say I'm gutted as I was really looking forward to letting it loose at full song!
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#28 Digital-sound

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 05:50 AM

I have always liked the idea as well. I have done it with my previous system as well (yorkville 801p subs that I added two more speaker pole cups to for speaker and lights....worked great cause those things are heavy beasts!).

One question. How do you work around the light T bar on top of the speaker stands? I find my speaker pole are 1-3/8" and my light bars are 1-1/2" (I think those are the numbers). So when I put my light bar on top of my speaker, it is loose. Are the K&M poles adjustable? Or have a "flip side" like some poles?

I have added a speaker pole cup to the top of my L3t and have a short pole to which I riveted a small piece of the bigger tube to deal with the issue I mentioned above (sloppy light bar).

I have two lights a side I put up there. I have my subs permanently mounted to a hand truck for simplicity, so there is a bit more stability with the wheels slightly wider than the sub. So I am not too worried about them going over. And the lights are "light" so I would do it anyway. Sure saves some space!
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#29 jaminjimlp

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 06:06 AM

I have added a speaker pole cup to the top of my L3t and have a short pole to which I riveted a small piece of the bigger tube to deal with the issue I mentioned above (sloppy light bar).
 

This is what I thought was being talked about when Si was explaining the setup way back in the other thread. that is a great idea as well.


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#30 SiWatts69

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 06:09 AM

One question. How do you work around the light T bar on top of the speaker stands? I find my speaker pole are 1-3/8" and my light bars are 1-1/2" (I think those are the numbers). So when I put my light bar on top of my speaker, it is loose. Are the K&M poles adjustable? Or have a "flip side" like some poles?


The K&M poles are all 35mm tops.
The K&M T-bar shown in the picture has a 35mm inner diameter mount which slides down over the pole and then has a locking screw fastener. 21393 CROSSBAR - black http://produkte.k-m....-CROSSBAR-black

I've recently bought some new (lighter but more powerful) lights to go atop those poles, but they only have a 28mm socket mount so at the same time, purchased a set of K&M reducer flanges and 28mm TV pins:
24521 REDUCER FLANGE - black, M10 x 12 mm http://produkte.k-m....ack-M10-x-12-mm
24519 TV PIN - zinc-plated http://produkte.k-m....PIN-zinc-plated

I then have a set of 28mm diameter lighting stands which I can "step up" to 35mm giving me full flexibility.
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#31 pierrebriend

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 08:01 AM

Your advice about an alternate solution that I could set : I have 2 L3m, 3 L2 and stagescape, (but no L3) Of course I use connect all of them though LINE6 LINK. My former system was BOSE L1 model II, with 4 Bass B1 (using a Packlite bass extension). So, I'm thinking of mixing the LINE6 and BOSE device (BOSE only for BASS diffusion purpose, i.e. without the "Radiator" column, but with Tonematch and BOSE amp.

So my question : is it convenient to have the M20d display in the same time the signal through the port LINE6 Link (for LINE6 devices) AND through the analog port L/R (to the BOSE device)?

The advantage for me is that I already have the BOSE gear, I like the BOSE Bass sound and the set is several "light" easy to carry boxes.

My specific question can be related to a general question : is it "permitted" to connect equipment though LINE6 LINK and L/R analog port? 


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#32 SiWatts69

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 08:39 AM

Yes. You can simultaneously connect a full line or partial line of Line6 L6Link speakers AND analogue speakers to either or both of the main L&R outs and Monitor A-D sends.

Analogue L&R will receive exactly the same as is sent to L6Link L & R assigned speakers
Analogue monitor A, B, C and D will receive exactly the same as is sent to L6Link monitors A, B, C & D.

Connect Analogue L&R to your Tonematch and set whatever crossover point you want to only drive the bose bass units.
Connect your stagesource speakers via L6Link and let the M20d manage them for you.
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#33 RonMarton

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 09:40 AM

...when the subs are laid flat you help empower their bass effect. Stood upright, the effect of the bass is minimally reduced BUT I seem to recall seeing somewhere that a lot of people believe the effect to be more psychological than actual...

 

It's actually a fact that PLACEMENT is a highly effective tool for harnessing the nearest "acoustic boundary" and/or "corner" (as a "no extra charge" addition to any speaker system that effectively gets more "leverage" onto the air from a given set of speaker cones) rather than simply being some form of "mystical magic" that may or may not be noticeable.

 

A single L3s "laid flat" alters things in two ways:

  1. Bringing both of its cones equally closer to a floor boundary, therefore (naturally) further away from the ceiling and
  2. The consequent side by side arrangement of its two drivers decreases that system's horizontal dispersion, while simultaneously increasing vertical dispersion, whereas the upright "stacking"of drivers on top of each other does the opposite, "narrowing" the system's vertical dispersion while increasing its horizontal. 

For a given acoustic space, or notional "box", then, placement alone can completely alter how the bass is perceived, whereby some "rooms" will become almost irredeemably "boomy" and/or "boxy" and/or "whoomp feedback" prone with (say) a pair of incorrectly placed subs working against each other to also create "nulls" and "nodes" where hardly any bass is actually audible, ...as distinct from having the same notional pair intelligently located, or even "stacked" so as to radiate uniformly coherent bass from a single point that's directing the waveforms away from as many boundaries as possible.

 

Perhaps the best demonstration of this effect can be heard where no boundaries exist to either help or hinder, in which case audiences can be comprehensively amazed at the distances over which coherent, full range audio can be "thrown" from what appears to merely be a single pair of StageSource L3 mid/tops in their normal FOH positions on either side.

 

That sort of "magic" is readily achievable at outdoor festivals and the like by pair of L3s subs actually doing most of the "heavy lifting" from their "invisible" position, ...laid sideways, but "stacked" on top of each other, dead centre and fully under our high stage's leading edge, from where they can not only derive maximum "leverage and loading" from the ground on which they're standing, but also achieve the maximum and most evenly dispersed (staggering) "thump" as a result of radiating from that single point. 

 

Dead easy via Line 6 Link.


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#34 jaminjimlp

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 10:16 AM

It's actually a fact that PLACEMENT is a highly effective tool for harnessing the nearest "acoustic boundary" and/or "corner" (as a "no extra charge" addition to any speaker system that effectively gets more "leverage" onto the air from a given set of speaker cones) rather than simply being some form of "mystical magic" that may or may not be noticeable.

 

A single L3s "laid flat" alters things in two ways:

  1. Bringing both of its cones equally closer to a floor boundary, therefore (naturally) further away from the ceiling and
  2. The consequent side by side arrangement of its two drivers decreases that system's horizontal dispersion, while simultaneously increasing vertical dispersion, whereas the upright "stacking"of drivers on top of each other does the opposite, "narrowing" the system's vertical dispersion while increasing its horizontal. 

For a given acoustic space, or notional "box", then, placement alone can completely alter how the bass is perceived, whereby some "rooms" will become almost irredeemably "boomy" and/or "boxy" and/or "whoomp feedback" prone with (say) a pair of incorrectly placed subs working against each other to also create "nulls" and "nodes" where hardly any bass is actually audible, ...as distinct from having the same notional pair intelligently located, or even "stacked" so as to radiate uniformly coherent bass from a single point that's directing the waveforms away from as many boundaries as possible.

 

Perhaps the best demonstration of this effect can be heard where no boundaries exist to either help or hinder, in which case audiences can be comprehensively amazed at the distances over which coherent, full range audio can be "thrown" from what appears to merely be a single pair of StageSource L3 mid/tops in their normal FOH positions on either side.

 

That sort of "magic" is readily achievable at outdoor festivals and the like by pair of L3s subs actually doing most of the "heavy lifting" from their "invisible" position, ...laid sideways, but "stacked" on top of each other, dead centre and fully under our high stage's leading edge, from where they can not only derive maximum "leverage and loading" from the ground on which they're standing, but also achieve the maximum and most evenly dispersed (staggering) "thump" as a result of radiating from that single point. 

 

Dead easy via Line 6 Link.

 

WOW!!! Great advice I will employ it at our next out door gig (which is what we do most often)


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#35 SiWatts69

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 12:00 PM

Thanks for that Ron...

:-)
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#36 RonMarton

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 01:29 PM

You're always welcome, folks...

 

For more details of sub placement techniques, scroll down to the "Sound reinforcement" section of this Wikipedia page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subwoofer


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#37 eggagnon2

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 02:16 PM

I have added a speaker pole cup to the top of my L3t and have a short pole to which I riveted a small piece of the bigger tube to deal with the issue

 

Hi iknowathingortwo

I'd be interested to see how you mounted the cup on the top of your L3t


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#38 tinorios

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 02:49 PM

 

Perhaps the best demonstration of this effect can be heard where no boundaries exist to either help or hinder, in which case audiences can be comprehensively amazed at the distances over which coherent, full range audio can be "thrown" from what appears to merely be a single pair of StageSource L3 mid/tops in their normal FOH positions on either side.

 

That sort of "magic" is readily achievable at outdoor festivals and the like by pair of L3s subs actually doing most of the "heavy lifting" from their "invisible" position, ...laid sideways, but "stacked" on top of each other, dead centre and fully under our high stage's leading edge, from where they can not only derive maximum "leverage and loading" from the ground on which they're standing, but also achieve the maximum and most evenly dispersed (staggering) "thump" as a result of radiating from that single point. 

 

 

What if there is no high stage to put the subwoofers under? Everybody, the band and audience, are on the street, which is gently curved to direct the rain water to the storm sewers on the edges. What is the best arrangement of the subwoofers then?

 

Thank you for your post. As always, mind blowing and thought provoking. I thought you were on vacation or something because you've been mighty quiet lately. But, it is good to get the thunder from down under back!


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#39 RonMarton

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 03:35 PM

I'm always "on vacation", Tino !  :D

 

(Australia is like that. Really.)

 

What you will also have noticed, however, is the way many other folks have chimed in with a multitude of superb responses to those forums for which I'm in the privileged position of being able to offer contributions.

 

(I have been watching...)  :ph34r:

 

What if there is no high stage to put the subwoofers under? Everybody, the band and audience, are on the street, which is gently curved to direct the rain water to the storm sewers on the edges. What is the best arrangement of the subwoofers then?...

 

I guess the four main things on my mind in that situation would be

  1. Trip hazards from cabling,
  2. Avoiding "drainage" into our equipment,
  3. Rigging for an easier de-rig (and quicker arrival at the beer afterwards) ...and... 
  4. Aiming our "thump" to the audience, but (if possible) AWAY from areas that do not want and/or need it. 

With those four factors in mind, (and given that we have two L3s enclosures) I may very well opt to configure our pair of subs as a single "side by side" array in order to both reduce cabling distances and to shape their radiation as a more vertically orientated "slot" that has one of its "sides" firing up to a (demonstrably non-reflective) sky, with the other "loading" onto the "acoustic plane" that is the ground on which they (and our audience) are standing.

 

(That gentle "drainage" curve you mention should have very little bearing on our sound, because such sonic effects as it may impart will largely be "aimed" skywards, as you will have already guessed.) 

 

Given that our brains make the mid-tops seemingly almost the exclusive "sources" of sound in terms of actual perception, all of the above may easily result in our side by side subwoofer array "landing" away from the FOH speakers, under any available lamp-post, tree or awning that allows for easy "flying" of cabling while offering a suitable "aiming point" for the more vertical "slot " that is its (relatively narrow) dispersion pattern.

 

That sort of ground-loading side by side array will also project less "far" than a vertical "stack", whereby we can use it to grant our "mosh pit" or "dance-prone" area a very satisfying level of clean "thump", while still allowing that type of "passing trade" crowd to arrange itself intuitively, according to the amount of participation that each member actually wants.  


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#40 Digital-sound

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 04:06 PM

I have added a speaker pole cup to the top of my L3t and have a short pole to which I riveted a small piece of the bigger tube to deal with the issue

Hi iknowathingortwo
I'd be interested to see how you mounted the cup on the top of your L3t

I used one of these - http://accessories.y...duct/sks-adapt/

And removed one of the screws from the top of the l3t and mounted the above adapter. I tried to get two screws through, but, I think I couldn't get them to line up, so left it with one. If one doesn't hold it, then the speaker is probably going over anyway! I will get a picture for you. (And will start a new thread or join one on lights/speakers...this one has gone off track a bit)
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