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L3m Has A Rattle Just Like The L2m

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#1 velok

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 03:54 PM

Unbelievable and horrible!  I returned my L2ms; four of them because of a known issue with them rattling between an E & F.  I replaced them with L3Ms.  I thought they were ok, but they are NOT!  The rattle on the L3Ms occurs around the B chord on my guitar.  For anyone who wants to replicate the rattle, I get it by playing a "B" bar chord on a hot clean guitar setting with the speaker turned up anywhere from half to three quarters volume.  Sustaining (rather than constantly strumming) the chord makes the rattle super obvious as the voume level of the chord drops and the rattle takes over completely.  My mixer is the Line6 Stagescape M20d.

 

What is going on Line6?  I am just past my return period and I am stuck with two rattling speakers.  What gives, how dare you sell this system with such a glaring problem with the speakers.  I am freaking outraged and frustrated. I don't know what to do. I am heavily invested with the mixer and the subwoofers (hope they don't have a rattle also, would not be surprised if they do).  Line6, what would you have me do?  I have no speaker options available for this system. Both the monitor sized L2m and the L3m have rattles.  Help please!


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#2 silverhead

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 03:57 PM

Have you opened a support ticket to work directly with Line 6 tech support on this?


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#3 tinorios

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 04:24 PM

Hi Velok,

 

I'm terribly sorry to hear this.

 

Are you using the speakers as a PA FOH, as monitors, or as guitar amp cabs?

 

Is the rattle present in all the different functions, or confined to just one?

 

Wow, this is amazing. I can understand how frustrated you must be.

 

Tino


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#4 velok

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 06:17 PM

Have you opened a support ticket to work directly with Line 6 tech support on this?

No, they were closed when I went to call them today.  I am going to speak with them tomorrow.


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#5 silverhead

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 06:40 PM

A phone call is great. But you can open a support ticket electronically, 24/7. Follow the Support tab at top of this page.


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#6 velok

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 07:12 PM

Hi Velok,

 

I'm terribly sorry to hear this.

 

Are you using the speakers as a PA FOH, as monitors, or as guitar amp cabs?

 

Is the rattle present in all the different functions, or confined to just one?

 

Wow, this is amazing. I can understand how frustrated you must be.

 

Tino

I am using these speakers as PA FOH.  I only purchased them because every one of my L2Ms had a pronounced rattle between E & F on my electric guitar. This occurred on every one of the 4 different L2ms I bought.  They all had the rattle. On some speakers the rattle is worse than others but they are all exibiting it.  How can you do a professional caliber show or record with room mics when your speakers are audibly rattling at certain frequencies?

 

I thought the problem was gone when I was forced to purchase the L3Ms but it turns out the resonant frequency is just in another spot (around the B bar chord).  One of the problems with these speakers is that you don't notice the rattle until you hook up just the right instrument with just the right settings.  However, the sound is so loud and so blatant I can't believe these speakers were turned loose on an unsuspecting public.

 

Most of my musician friends were quite frankly incredibly dubious when I made the decision to go with Line6 for a premium (priced) live sound system.  I told them that I believed Line6 was really trying to produce something of quality with their high end products.  Was I wrong?  Everyone who warned me is looking absolutely prescient right now. 

 

There is clearly a production problem on Line6 speakers.  I can't believe this is so under reported.  What are the odds of me finding 6 speakers in a row that exibit rattling problems?  Why isn't everyone hammering Line6 on this?  This system could be so awesome with properly working Line6 speakers.  Line6 please help me out here!  My DreamScape system has turned out to be a NightmareScape! 

 

All I wanted was a turnkey easy to use digital system that replaced my need for hauling outboard effect racks around.  Instead I am now stuck with thousands of dollars worth of Line6 mixer, speakers, and subwoofers with no viable alternative for FOH or monitor speakers because it appears that every Line6 speaker, at least from my part of the country, has a pronounced rattle, some worse than others.  I could live with waiting around for Line6 to straighten out their speaker issues and use some other speakers in the interim but that would meant I would have to run outboard 31 band EQs on my system.  Now why would I want to do that when every other vendor of high end digital mixers is now including a 31 band EQ in their mixer.  As you know the 31 band EQ on the M20d mixer only works with Line6 speakers.  Am I the only soundman/musician out here who feels that a 31 band GEQ is a critical tool for live sound?  Every serious system I have seen or used for decades uses them.  I don't know a single serious soundman who has a system without several GEQs.

 

Again, the whole point of this mixer for me (and I think for most bands who purchase this system) was to eliminate having to carry racks of outboard equipment and be able to set up very quickly with great sound, no fuss, no muss. So... I stepped up and bought the DreamScape system (all Line6 subs, mains, M20d mixer, monitors), my reward is that I have not been able to find a single Line6 monitor or main (FOH) that does not have a rattle. Now I am back to requring 2 to 4 outboard GEQs because I am forced to use speakers that are not Line6.  Not a Line6 speaker, sorry, you don't get a 31 band GEQ on your Line6 mixer.  I know the problem is the Line6 speakers because I can swap in my old JBLs and have no rattle (and unfortunately, also no 31 band EQ). Sorry to repeat that, I feel like a broken record. 

 

I am at my wit's end. This situation is just so damn frustrating.  And now I am potentially stuck with my defective L3m speakers and no decent alternative.  I sincerely hope the subs don't have this issue.  I have not used them enough to determine that.  Maybe, ferverently hopefully, the frequency range on them is low enough to have avoided the resonant rattle. 

 

I have been a huge fan of Line6 for years, what is going on here?    I am out of my return period and stuck with a very expensive and crippled PA, with no decent alternative. Could someone high up at Line6 please step up and help me out!  Come on Line6, you're better than this!


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#7 Digital-sound

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 07:38 PM

That is really unfortunate. I am lucky enough to have received what you were looking for. Couldn't produce rattle in my L2m's, and although I haven't tried straight guitar to the L3t, I have used it many times now as FOH, and several times as a bass amp in rehearsal situations. All is great.

I would like to think your next L3m's couldn't possibly have this problem AGAIN, but seems you attract them. Maybe there is a future for you in the QC section of Line 6 factory!

And I would certainly be complaining loud as well of I had the luck you seem to. But I don't. It sounds like those who do are clearly mentioning the problem in the other thread. And it is impossible to gauge the size of the problem in a forum. Not everyone with a company's gear, actually join the forums. But, almost everyone with a problem, goes to the forum. So basically, we see close to 100% of the problems in the forum. It would be interesting to know the sales of L2m's. Certainly more have been sold than just the few of us active people here in the forum. Not at all trying to downsize the problem. I may have even moved back to my reliable yorkvilles by now if I was in your position, Velok. You are definitely doing your part and the some. Can only ask someone to hang in there for so long.....
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#8 velok

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 07:56 PM

That is really unfortunate. I am lucky enough to have received what you were looking for. Couldn't produce rattle in my L2m's, and although I haven't tried straight guitar to the L3t, I have used it many times now as FOH, and several times as a bass amp in rehearsal situations. All is great.

I would like to think your next L3m's couldn't possibly have this problem AGAIN, but seems you attract them. Maybe there is a future for you in the QC section of Line 6 factory!

And I would certainly be complaining loud as well of I had the luck you seem to. But I don't. It sounds like those who do are clearly mentioning the problem in the other thread. And it is impossible to gauge the size of the problem in a forum. Not everyone with a company's gear, actually join the forums. But, almost everyone with a problem, goes to the forum. So basically, we see close to 100% of the problems in the forum. It would be interesting to know the sales of L2m's. Certainly more have been sold than just the few of us active people here in the forum. Not at all trying to downsize the problem. I may have even moved back to my reliable yorkvilles by now if I was in your position, Velok. You are definitely doing your part and the some. Can only ask someone to hang in there for so long.....

Thanks Digital-sound!  I really hope Line6 can address this issue in a timely and satisfactory fashion for those of us (as you pointed out, who knows how many) who have been impacted so adversely by this production line and QA problem at their factory.


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#9 velok

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 07:57 PM

Have you opened a support ticket to work directly with Line 6 tech support on this?

I opened an online ticket as well per your suggestion.  Thanks!


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#10 jericks97219

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Posted 18 April 2014 - 06:10 PM

I just discovered this rattle issue on my L3T that I purchased less than a month ago.  It happens at F#, which fits with your B chord finding.  I am inclined to take it back, as I've read a post on another forum where the guy quotes Lin6 as saying it's a known issue with all the models and there is no fix at this time.  The post is from January.  With only four days to go in my return period, I think I'd better return them.  What a disappointment, I loved everything about them, but this rattle simply can't coexist with recording.  It's freaking loud.  


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#11 velok

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Posted 18 April 2014 - 06:44 PM

Wow, did Line6 delete the entire topic on the speaker rattle in the L2M and L3M speakers?  I don't see it any more.  What's going on?  Line6 rep, why was that topic deleted?


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#12 velok

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Posted 18 April 2014 - 09:25 PM

In addition to today's deletion of a lengthy topic with many posts regarding the issue with a loud rattle in the Line6 L2 & L3 speakers, it also appears that Line6 has been alerted to this issue for over a year and are still only stating that they are working on a fix.  Here is the post from their own archives (assuming this does not get deleted as well).  The link is http://line6.com/sup...w/thread/109912

 

This is a post from someone alerting Line6 to the rattling speaker issue on March 21st, 2013.  Here we are over a year later, Line6 is still selling defective speakers, they still have no fix and no promise that we who are now out of our return period will be taken care of, if and when a fix ever arrives.


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#13 jericks97219

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Posted 19 April 2014 - 03:17 PM

I returned my L3T today and exchanged it for a QSC K12.  My initial impressions are that, while I lost some features and sheer power, the QSC is overall better suited to the POD HD500 with respect to tone.  It's noise floor is lower at 0db, there is very little hiss compared to the L3T.  Also, the fan does not seem to rev up like the L3T did.   Overall, a happy ending.   It's a shame that such a good speaker has this fan rattle issue in certain circumstances.  

 

Velok, let us know what Line6 has to say about your issue. 


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#14 velok

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 06:00 PM

In addition to today's deletion of a lengthy topic with many posts regarding the issue with a loud rattle in the Line6 L2 & L3 speakers, it also appears that Line6 has been alerted to this issue for over a year and are still only stating that they are working on a fix.  Here is the post from their own archives (assuming this does not get deleted as well).  The link is http://line6.com/sup...w/thread/109912

 

This is a post from someone alerting Line6 to the rattling speaker issue on March 21st, 2013.  Here we are over a year later, Line6 is still selling defective speakers, they still have no fix and no promise that we who are now out of our return period will be taken care of, if and when a fix ever arrives.

 

I felt I should update this post.  Line6 says the deletion was the result of a rogue action and not an intentional attempt by Line6 to delete these posts.  At least that is what they say, and as of right now, I tend to believe them! They have restored most if not all of the posts and the topics.  Way to go Line6!


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#15 BucF16

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 10:48 AM

Just a thought, if you haven't tried this.  I've had my L2's really want to resonate when playing a D chord (F# is the 3rd so a very strong harmonic?).  BUT it only seems to happen in my home studio with the speaker setup as a floor monitor.  With it vertical or off the floor I haven't had the problem.

 

So maybe try moving the speaker or trying it in another room?

 

FWIW, my L3's have been amazing no matter where I put them. I've rarely been as happy with a purchase as I have been with my L3 and L3 Subs.


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#16 jericks97219

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 12:20 PM

My L3T was rattling when standing up, but I do see how sympathetic vibration from the floor could have helped the rattle get going.  In my case, moving it to another room would not be possible, but I suppose putting it on an isolation stand might help.  Since bass response is supposed to be attenuated when the L3T is on it's side, you would think there would be less issues when it was used as a floor monitor.  Must be the additional contact with the floor outweighs the bass attenuation with respect to getting the rattle going.  


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#17 tinorios

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Posted 26 April 2014 - 06:50 PM

While checking in the internet searching on different speaker manufacturers name and the word “rattle”, I came across a website, Music Player Network, that had several forums. In one of them, a keyboard forum, a forum moderator started a topic on the “Line 6 Stage Source L2t” last July 2013. And, the rattle problem came up in this forum in January 2014. On the 1st of February, one J.Dan suggested an interesting test. I copied it below:

 

“I’m not denying that you’re experiencing what you are, but I’m guessing others don’t have the same applications that cause the phenomenon. Specifically, it is probably some resonant frequency. There’s one way to determine whether it’s a change in manufacturing, or a difference in application. Do you have any kind of sweepable frequency generator? Like, where you can set a sine wave to a specific amplitude, and sweep the frequency and say “the buzz occurs between X Hz and Y Hz at a level of Z”? Then people could replicate the test and see if it’s all L2t’s or recent ones. That would be valuable info. I know most people don’t have that kind of equipment, but if you know any body who has anything that you could borrow, that would be very useful information”>

 

Well, I have an app for that! And I decided to do the test on my L3m’s.

 

I set up my speakers like they’re normally used, as a PA system. The L3s subwoofer on bottom in the “tall” position, with its longest side vertically, the long Line 6 pole threaded in the single female thread connector on the top of the L3s speaker, and the L3m on top. Two sets of speakers in my 20’ x 16’ )6m x 4.88m) Living Room with the speakers about 10’ (3m) apart along the long (north) wall. Everything was connected with Line 6 brand L6 link cable to the M20d mixer.

 

I used my iPod Touch (although the iPad would have worked just as well) using Studio Six Digital Audio Tools app with the Signal Generated selected in the Utilities section. I connected the iPod to the Aux input of the M20d mixer with a cable with 1/8” (3.5mm) connectors. I set the level in the Aux channel to zero, the level on the outputs just below zero and the level in the signal generator app to about 3/4 of max. The speaker knobs were all set at 12 o’clock position like recommended in other threads in this forum. I set the signal generator to sine wave (it also does square wave, white & pink noise), to “fine” setting (it also does full & 1/3 octave), and output mode to Mono (it also does left, right and balanced). Then, I turned off Mute & started the test.

 

I didn’t get any rattles until around 80 Hz, getting worse around 83 Hz. I couldn’t find what was rattling for a while until I finally figured out it was coming from inside the fireplace chimney. I kept increasing the frequency until around 98 Hz another rattle. This one ended up being one of the two windows on the west wall of the room. Kept increasing frequency until the next rattle, a turntable behind me at the mixer at 129 Hz. The turntable rattled again at 195 Hz and 210 Hz. Then, no more rattles. I stopped around 800 Hz because my ears were getting tired.

 

Throughout the test, I kept going back behind the speakers to feel the back metal plate where all the connections are & where the fan might be. Pressing against the plate would not change the sound so I took that to mean that my speakers are not rattling. At least not with this set up.

 

Now, if it can be established conclusively that some speakers rattle and some don’t, this raises a question that I will ask in my next post.


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#18 tinorios

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Posted 26 April 2014 - 06:52 PM

Suppose that some speakers rattle and some don’t. And that a test is available that can determine which speakers rattle and which don’t conclusively & objectively. And by rattle I mean “the” rattle. The objectionable, performance killing rattle that we’ve been discussing in this and other threads. Not just any kind of rattle.

 

It seems to me that if speakers could be tested to separate the ones that rattle from the ones that don’t, the ones that don’t could be sent to customers that have speakers that do rattle without going thru this trial and error, mainly error, of returning speakers, sometimes multiple times, back and forth, until the person gives up returning speakers, or the person gets lucky & receives a good speaker. This takes an enourmous amount of time, effort and money. Not just on the individual, but on the retailer or manufacturer, depending on who gets the faulty speaker. The only people that benefit from this unproductive & wasteful back and forth are the shipping companies that get paid both ways, back, and forth.

 

This testing of speakers to determine which ones don’t rattle to replace rattling speakers to customers that are trying to swap theirs would work if not all speakers rattle. If the rattle is present in all recently manufactured speakers, then there would be new speakers without the rattle to send to customers once all the “old”, non-rattling speakers are used up. This leads me to my next question in my next post.


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#19 tinorios

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Posted 26 April 2014 - 06:54 PM

Suppose that all speakers rattle. For some people it is not a problem because of their application or situation. But for others it is a very big problem leading to cancellation of gigs and loss of potential & actual income.

 

Some users could wait until Line 6 settles on the final fix for the speaker fan rattle. Some users could, with a lot of effort & aggravation, come up with a temporary, stopgap solution to get by until the final fix is available, or go back to their old equipment, also temporarily. But, let’s go to the main point of this post and say that some of us cannot wait until the final fix at some undetermined time in the future. Let’s say I want my money back. What are my options?

 

Most retailers on-line and brick & mortar, have a 30 day money back guarantee. Amazon.com has partial refund, for example, 80% of item’s price if item is in original condition past the return window (of 30 days), 50% of item’s price for items that are damaged, missing parts, not in original condition, or have obvious signs of use for reasons not due to an Amazon.com error.

 

As another example, Musiciansfriend.com has a 45 day return policy. The original free shipping cost is deducted from your refund. Sweetwater.com says return “within a fair amount of time from the shipping date (usually 30 days)”. The original shipping shipping cost is also deducted from your refund. ZZSounds.com has a 45 days after order is delivered. “In the case of an outright return for refund, we refund the full price of the product, but you are responsible for return shipping on the product you are returning and we do not credit any original shipping charges toward the exchange”.

 

I checked my local store where I bought my mixer and two L3m speakers on December 2012 and their return policy is 30 days return less 10% re-stocking & processing fees. I did not check national retail chains like Guitar Center and Sam Ash because they are not available to me in my remote location.

 

These examples suffice to determine that for anything longer than about a month and a half, I will have to deal directly with Line 6 to get my money back. I will investigate that in my next post.


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#20 tinorios

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Posted 26 April 2014 - 06:55 PM

If I’m trying to get my money back for speakers with “the” rattle because I cannot wait for a final fix and my time to return the speakers to the retailer has expired, I’m going to have to deal directly with Line 6. So, what is the Line 6 money back guarantee or policy?

 

I couldn’t find it in their (this) website, or in the warranty papers that came with my speakers. Here’s what my warranty papers say, in part:

 

Title: “Line 6 Warranty Information Updated April 2005”.

“Line 6 warrants that your new Line 6 product, when purchased at an authorized Line 6 dealer in the United States of America, shall be free of defects in materials and workmanship for a period of one (1) year from original date of purchase. Please contact your dealer for information on warranty and service outside of the USA.

During the warranty period, Line 6 shall, at its sole option, either repair or replace any product that proves to be defective upon inspection by Line 6.

Line 6 reserves the right to update any unit for repair and to change or improve the design of the product at any time without notice.”

 

After a few more comments about use of reconditioned parts, who qulifies for the warranty & no warranty by others will be recognized, there is another paragraph that states:

“Service & repairs of Line 6 products are to be performed only at the Line 6 factory or a Line 6 authorized service center. Line 6 may require advanced authorization of repairs to authorized service centers. Unauthorized service, repair or modifications will void this warranty.”

 

The warranty information in this website says the StageSource speakers is 36 months, 3 years, not the one year like the paper that came with my speakers says.

 

Money refund is not mentioned, only replacement of parts or complete unit. And, how long to repair? From the Service heading in the Support/Customer Service/Repair Information section: “Repair time can vary from weeks to months depending on the kind of repair and the availability of repair parts”.

 

Reading all of this tells me that, I ain’t getting my money back, I ain’t getting my speakers repaired fast, and I better not try fix them myself. Those are the legal requirements to protect Line 6 from lawsuits. 

 

But, what about the business and moral considerations to protect Line 6 and it customers?

 

I’ll consider that in my next post.


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#21 tinorios

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Posted 26 April 2014 - 06:56 PM

OK, Line 6 doesn’t have to return my money, legally. But does it make business sense to do it?

 

Returning money to me and others would cost Line 6 money. And it is easy to calculate how much. What is not easy to calculate is how much Line 6 is loosing in lost sales. From this thread and the other two threads discussing this rattle, I believe three members specifically stated they were going to buy L2x speakers and decided not to because of this rattle. I believe there were about four members very unhappy with the rattle problem that I believe would have wanted their money back. So, three lost sales vs. four captive, reluctant sales saved in this small sample. So, it looks like Line 6 is ahead. But, is it really? How many non-members, guests, read some of this, didn’t post because they can’t, or don’t want to, and didn’t buy?

 

And what of the risk that a disgruntled customer would write a bad review in Amazon.com, all those music equipment retailers, Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, etc. I’m not suggesting or encouraging anyone to do that, but how many lost sales?

 

wouldn’t it be better to reassure us, the customers, that Line 6 will replace a faulty speaker with one that doesn’t rattle if this rattle is only for a batch of speakers and Line 6 has testing procedures that can identify non-rattling speakers. Our that Line 6 will return our money if the rattle occurs and we wish to get our money back? And, that Line 6 will stop selling these speakers until the cure is settled on if Line 6 can’t figure out which speakers rattle if which don’t. I don’t know what’s best for Line 6. Line 6 has to determine what is best in the short term and in the long run.

 

As a Line 6 fanboy, with no apologies offered, I am unsettled by all of this. My StageScape/StageSource system has performed impeccably, above & beyond my expectations. It has survived a torrential downpour and heavy condensation that would have voided my warranty “due to liquid contamination”. I don’t say this to rub it in the face of anyone experiencing this problem, or to incur favor from Line 6, but to imply that I’m trying to be impartial. But, I really can’t be impartial. I really can’t just keep on keeping on because I don’t have a problem with my system. Now.

 

But what about in the future? What about if it was me that had a problem? Can I trust Line 6 to repair the problem quickly, or to refund my money? I don’t know.


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#22 ArneLine6

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Posted 26 April 2014 - 07:46 PM

Line6Tony
18 Apr 2014
Guys,

We're aware that some L2 model speakers are exhibiting a rattling noise in specific cases and applications. We have determined the root cause is the fan. We are aggressively working on a solution that will undergo extensive testing to ensure that:

· the noise problem is addressed
· the fan performs as expected
· no new issues are introduced

Although we’ve made this a high priority, we can’t commit to a time frame until we have a qualified solution in house. Once that work is complete, customers who report the problem to Line 6 Customer Service will be given appropriate guidelines for repair.

We will report a solution at the earliest opportunity, and we thank you for your continued patience.
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#23 velok

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 04:03 AM

Tinorios,

 

A host of thoughtful and helpful posts!  Thank you for your efforts and input!


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#24 tinorios

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 05:30 AM

As far as I know, Line 6 doesn't sell anything directly to consumers, except various accessories and small parts...so technically they don't have your money. The retailer you bought it from does, and the best refund policy I've ever seen gives you 30 days from the date of purchase to get your money back. So you're more likely to win lotto than to have L6 cut you a check, nor is it particularly likely that any retailer will give you a refund 6 months from now if your gear develops a problem. That never happens. Nobody would be able to stay in business that way. Best you can hope for a is a warranty repair...and if it's five minutes past the warranty expiration, you'll probably be SOL. Just the way the world is...caveat emptor.

 

I was thinking of a one time, special case, because of this rattle, money back to preserve goodwill.


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#25 tinorios

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 05:50 AM

Line6Tony
18 Apr 2014
Guys,

We're aware that some L2 model speakers are exhibiting a rattling noise in specific cases and applications. We have determined the root cause is the fan. We are aggressively working on a solution that will undergo extensive testing to ensure that:

· the noise problem is addressed
· the fan performs as expected
· no new issues are introduced

Although we’ve made this a high priority, we can’t commit to a time frame until we have a qualified solution in house. Once that work is complete, customers who report the problem to Line 6 Customer Service will be given appropriate guidelines for repair.

We will report a solution at the earliest opportunity, and we thank you for your continued patience.

 

What is your policy on refunding money to the persons that cannot wait for the qualified solution?


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#26 silverhead

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 06:05 AM

I think you know the answer to that. The retailer has your money, not Line 6. As Line 6 has stated, they will fix the problem for all affected customers on an individual basis when the fix is ready. They won't give you a refund. Nor, I expect, would any manufacturer under similar circumstances.

 

In happens routinely in all industry sectors. Manufacturing problems are fixed by reputable manufacturers. Money is not refunded except within the original sales return period, which is a retailer feature - not the manufacturer.


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#27 Tboneous

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 06:14 AM

Different equipment i know, but I feel it is worth noting that my DT 50 has a rattle at certain frequencies as well.


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#28 tinorios

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 07:13 AM

I think you know the answer to that. The retailer has your money, not Line 6. As Line 6 has stated, they will fix the problem for all affected customers on an individual basis when the fix is ready. They won't give you a refund. Nor, I expect, would any manufacturer under similar circumstances.

 

In happens routinely in all industry sectors. Manufacturing problems are fixed by reputable manufacturers. Money is not refunded except within the original sales return period, which is a retailer feature - not the manufacturer.

 

So you mean to tell me that Line 6 makes all this equipment, sends them to retailers and they never give Line 6 any money.

 

Also, in their warranty requirements, Line 6 asks for an original receipt. So, if you buy a used Line 6 product on ebay or Craigslist still within the warranty period, you need the original receipt. I quote below:

 

"This warranty is extended to the original retail purchaser. This warranty can be transferred to anyone who may subsequently purchase this product provided that such transfer is made within the applicable warranty period and Line 6 is provided with the following items: (i) all warranty registration information (as set forth on the registration card) (ii) proof of the transfer within (30) days of the transfer purchase, and (iii) a photocopy of the original sales receipt. Warranty coverage shall be determined by Line 6 in its sole discretion."


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#29 silverhead

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 07:15 AM

Don't shoot the messenger. And don't hold your breath waiting for the answer you want to hear. It ain't coming.


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#30 tinorios

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 07:25 AM

Let me take another crack at this since I can't seem to get it off my mind.

 

All these posts were to lay the ground work to seek answers to three specific questions:

 

1. Does Line 6 have testing procedures that can recreate and predict which speakers will have the rattle?

 

2. Does Line 6 have speakers already made that can & could be tested that do not have this rattle and they can send those speakers to customers that need one right away?

 

3. Or, if no speakers without the rattle are available to swap, will Line 6 refund the money to those select customers that cannot wait for a final fix and are loosing gigs because they lack a functioning system?

 

I may be too dense and have missed these answers if they have already been provided. Also, I do not have this problem so I have not turned in a support case to Line 6. Therefore, I can not report Line 6 answers in this forum to those that are interested in this topic. To my knowledge, no one that has turned in a support case has reported any specific answers.

 

Because of that, I keep asking. I may or may not find answers, but if I do, I reserve the right to ask new questions.


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#31 tinorios

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 07:29 AM

Don't shoot the messenger. And don't hold your breath waiting for the answer you want to hear. It ain't coming.

 

Sorry Siverhead. I didn't mean anything personal.

 

I'm not seeking a general answer but a specific one related only to this problem with all the qualifications and restrictions that I have tried to state.

 

Your comments are always welcome. I just got in debate mode.


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#32 silverhead

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 07:29 AM

Let me help you try to get it off your mind:

1) Only Line 6 knows. Don't hold your breath waiting for them to answer you.

2) Same as #1.

3) No.

 

Try to move on.


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#33 Digital-sound

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 08:44 AM

I posted in the other "rattle" thread and admit I found this issue, but don't see it being a problem for me. I had to plug bass direct into L2m, put bass and L2m on FULL gain, and hit the F# HARD. No amp, just direct. Active pickups. And I heard a loud, distorted rattle. I admit it.

But last nights gig, with same cab as a monitor on stage running bass through it had no rattle at all. Only seems to be a problem at a very high volume for me. A volume that I will not use. So not a problem for my uses I guess.

L3t's and L3s's acted very good too. Many musicians were in the audience as well as regular customers of that venue. I have not had so many compliments on the sound in one night before.
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#34 Digital-sound

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 08:59 AM

While checking in the internet searching on different speaker manufacturers name and the word “rattle”, I came across a website, Music Player Network, that had several forums. In one of them, a keyboard forum, a forum moderator started a topic on the “Line 6 Stage Source L2t” last July 2013. And, the rattle problem came up in this forum in January 2014. On the 1st of February, one J.Dan suggested an interesting test. I copied it below:
 
“I’m not denying that you’re experiencing what you are, but I’m guessing others don’t have the same applications that cause the phenomenon. Specifically, it is probably some resonant frequency. There’s one way to determine whether it’s a change in manufacturing, or a difference in application. Do you have any kind of sweepable frequency generator? Like, where you can set a sine wave to a specific amplitude, and sweep the frequency and say “the buzz occurs between X Hz and Y Hz at a level of Z”? Then people could replicate the test and see if it’s all L2t’s or recent ones. That would be valuable info. I know most people don’t have that kind of equipment, but if you know any body who has anything that you could borrow, that would be very useful information”>
 
Well, I have an app for that! And I decided to do the test on my L3m’s.
 
I set up my speakers like they’re normally used, as a PA system. The L3s subwoofer on bottom in the “tall” position, with its longest side vertically, the long Line 6 pole threaded in the single female thread connector on the top of the L3s speaker, and the L3m on top. Two sets of speakers in my 20’ x 16’ )6m x 4.88m) Living Room with the speakers about 10’ (3m) apart along the long (north) wall. Everything was connected with Line 6 brand L6 link cable to the M20d mixer.
 
I used my iPod Touch (although the iPad would have worked just as well) using Studio Six Digital Audio Tools app with the Signal Generated selected in the Utilities section. I connected the iPod to the Aux input of the M20d mixer with a cable with 1/8” (3.5mm) connectors. I set the level in the Aux channel to zero, the level on the outputs just below zero and the level in the signal generator app to about 3/4 of max. The speaker knobs were all set at 12 o’clock position like recommended in other threads in this forum. I set the signal generator to sine wave (it also does square wave, white & pink noise), to “fine” setting (it also does full & 1/3 octave), and output mode to Mono (it also does left, right and balanced). Then, I turned off Mute & started the test.
 
I didn’t get any rattles until around 80 Hz, getting worse around 83 Hz. I couldn’t find what was rattling for a while until I finally figured out it was coming from inside the fireplace chimney. I kept increasing the frequency until around 98 Hz another rattle. This one ended up being one of the two windows on the west wall of the room. Kept increasing frequency until the next rattle, a turntable behind me at the mixer at 129 Hz. The turntable rattled again at 195 Hz and 210 Hz. Then, no more rattles. I stopped around 800 Hz because my ears were getting tired.
 
Throughout the test, I kept going back behind the speakers to feel the back metal plate where all the connections are & where the fan might be. Pressing against the plate would not change the sound so I took that to mean that my speakers are not rattling. At least not with this set up.
 
Now, if it can be established conclusively that some speakers rattle and some don’t, this raises a question that I will ask in my next post.


Does anyone get this rattle when using the L3s, and an L2 or L3, connected via line 6 link or at least some kind of crossover (even just connected as suggested, into the L3s first, and then the L2 or L3. I am not saying the speaker shouldn't perform as expected without the sub/crossover. I am more suggesting that the problem may not happen to when using with a sub.

Tinorios, you used an L3s. Maybe try the same test on the speakers without the L3s. Maybe just direct into the speaker?
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#35 SiWatts69

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 01:48 PM

I've previously reported not having this issue.

I run out my L2's as monitors with very little in the way of low end frequencies running through them, mainly vox with a small amount of FOH.
I run out my L3m's over the L3s subs so with the standard 120Hz crossover set by the M20d, there is again, nothing in the way of low end hitting them.

When we rehearse, we run out just the L2's or the L3m's but are running just vox channels, my sax and keyboards.
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#36 tinorios

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Posted 29 April 2014 - 08:58 AM

Are you really pretending to not understand how this works? Line 6 sells an item to an authorized dealer at some wholesale price, whatever that may be. At that point the game is over from their perspective...they won, a unit was sold. It could sit in sombody's stock room forever, and won't affect L6's bottom line. They got paid for the gear in your living room LONG before you walked into a store to purchase it. End of story. So no, they don't have your money and will not be giving it back to you no matter how nicely you ask, or how much "good will" it might generate. That's not how commerce works. Yamaha didn't buy Line 6 to accumulate vast reserves of "good will" and warm fuzzy feelings. "Good will" = RED INK on the quarterly reports. It's a long wait for a train that ain't coming.

 

With all due respect, you missed the point.


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#37 velok

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Posted 29 April 2014 - 09:58 PM

cruisinon2,

 

I am not sure there is such a concrete answer to be given here regarding getting your money back or at least a guarantee of a free repair.  I have been working with both Guitar Center and Line6 and have made substantial progress towards a more satisfactory resolution. Ultimately the best resolution will be when these speakers have different fans coming off the production line, existing defective fans have been swapped out for free, and none of my musician brothers or sisters have to deal with this issue ever again.  I would encourage anyone who has issues to work with whoever sold them their speaker(s) or Line6 until they get satisfaction.  That may mean getting your money back or getting a guarantee of a free repair.  There are no absolutes here.  Your resolution will depend on who you are dealing with and how you go about it.  There is no reason anyone should feel like they have to settle for being saddled with defective equipment.  There is much to love about this system and it should be awesome once they get it right.  Until then, I urge anyone impacted to constructively pursue being made whole.  Don't give up, we are all in this together!


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#38 tinorios

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Posted 05 May 2014 - 01:28 AM

I never suggested that anyone should settle for stuff that doesn't work. And you have a concrete answer guaranteeing a free repair already...that's what the warranty is. So by all means pursue a warranty repair, or replacement once they've figured out a solution. But the reality is that this is really the only recourse anyone has when dealing directly with a manufacturer.

What I did say, is that you won't get your money back from an entity that you did not give it to directly in the first place, and I maintain that to be the case. Having said that, brow-beating retailers is a whole other ballgame. You might sweet talk GC into giving you a refund, cause that's where you bought it. They have your money, Line 6 doesn't. If you manage to do that, great. It means you can talk a good game...more power to you. Having worked in music retail for a number of years, I've seen this work numerous times. Some scream and yell, others take the smooth talking politician approach. But no matter how you choose to rattle your sabre, if you do it long enough you will eventually get what you want. You'll get it because in a retail environment, there comes a point where having you shut up and go away is far more valuable than the $800 (or whatever the amount is) that you're asking for.

 

But good luck getting Line 6 to cut you a check...if I'm wrong, so be it...but it would be the first time in history that a manufacturer that does not direct-sell to consumers handed out cash refunds directly to the end user. A credit, some kind of voucher for future purchases, maybe...but cash? Not in this life.

 

Good explanation, cruisinon2.


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#39 rimrocked

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Posted 02 July 2014 - 11:41 AM

Not sure if this helps anyone with vibration/rattle issues, but here is what I have found out.

 

My bass guitarist and I were testing out the new Dreamscape system I just bought...4 L3T's (2 mains, 2 monitors) 1 L3S (for now) and the M20d. At first we plugged the bass, keyboard and mics direct in to the speakers before adding the mixer. Three(3) of the four(4) L3T's rattled on bass notes. lower D and E were particularly bad.

 

Quite by accident my bassist tapped the front grill and low and behold the vibration/rattle occurred! It is the rotatable line 6 label that is buzzing. I pulled the label out just enough to rotate and placed tiny soft foam packing behind either side of the label and the noise was gone! See pic for temporary fix.

 

The sound of this system is fantastic. Now if only we could get Line 6 to mail out to their suppliers thin little black foam pads for the labels on our speakers I think many of the buzz, rattle or vibration complaints would be solved. Anyway that is my two cents worth of knowledge.

Cheers,  

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#40 Tboneous

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Posted 11 July 2014 - 05:28 PM

I just purchased an l2m and it has the rattle. Line 6 sent me an RMA and i sent it off to be repaired. I want to purchase an l2t as well. Will I have to send it immediately back to Line 6 for repairs or have they fixed this issue prior to shipment to retailers? Can't I just purchase one that is already fixed so I can skip the shipping it back to Line 6 step? If so, where?
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