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L3s Power Cycling


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#1 litesnsirens

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Posted 17 April 2014 - 09:52 AM

Some of you may have read my previous thread in which I blew the power supplies in both of my L3s's. With everyone's help and the educated guess of the tech at Yorkville, it was determined the most likely cause was going from extreme cold to warm and then being powered up, the condensation blew the power supplies. 

 

So fast forward I got one of them back from repair, and it worked fine for 4 gigs.  At the last gig we set everything up and then powered up the system and the repaired L3s was power cycling about every 3 seconds it would turn off and then turn on and so on.  I tried unplugging it, going into a different outlet, taking it offline from the L6 link setup.  Everything I could think of.  We went ahead and did the gig with 1 L3s.  So last night I powered it up at home to see if it was still doing it.  Left it on all night.  No problem... no cycling.

 

Does anyone have any idea what could have caused this or what I could do to remedy the problem if it happens again?  The fact that it's working now indicates that there can't be too much wrong with it.  Instead of trying to think of a thousand things to try, it would be good to know the 1 thing to actually do.

 

Thanks


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#2 cruisinon2

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Posted 17 April 2014 - 10:02 AM

The fact that it's working now indicates that there can't be too much wrong with it.  Instead of trying to think of a thousand things to try, it would be good to know the 1 thing to actually do.

 

Thanks

 

Unfortunately, that's not really a safe assumption. What you've got here is a good old fashioned Intermitent Problem. Equally unfortunate is the fact that intermitent problems rarely get fixed until they become constant problems...as it is generally impossible to reproduce an intermitent issue when you bring it to your local Mr. Wizard for inspection. Wish I could help ya...good luck.


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#3 litesnsirens

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Posted 17 April 2014 - 10:06 AM

Well, I was hoping it wasn't that .. but I guess it could be.  I've heard of guys having power cycling with their M20d's I was wondering if it might be something similar, and how to resolve it.  If it's the latter I'm going to make sure it's duly noted at my dealer just to cover off any warranty issues.


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#4 cruisinon2

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Posted 17 April 2014 - 10:13 AM

Well, I was hoping it wasn't that .. but I guess it could be.  I've heard of guys having power cycling with their M20d's I was wondering if it might be something similar, and how to resolve it.  If it's the latter I'm going to make sure it's duly noted at my dealer just to cover off any warranty issues.

 

Anything is possible...but I've chased down too many "occasional" funny noises, or other weird behavior in everything from amps and guitars to motorcycles. Unless you just happen to get lucky, you usually just have to use it, play it, or ride it till it craps out completely...then the problem is generally easy to solve: "Oh look, this part here snapped in half/caught fire/etc."

 


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#5 gordwait

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Posted 17 April 2014 - 11:22 AM

I'm guessing your L3s has either a cold solder joint, or perhaps a corroded connector in the power supply somewhere. 

(I design and test prototype electronics for a living as part of my tasks as an FPGA designer). 

 

If you move it, bump it, or cause it to change temperature (cold to hot etc) this can reopen, or alternatively "make good" a bad connection at random. 

 

I'm guessing you're not done having trouble with this. 

 

The fact that you had an issue with both of your L3s's indicates to me that Line6 have a production issue, perhaps a bad batch of connectors, or cables etc.

 

Most modern power supplies have voltage, current and temperature sensors that are used to keep the power supply at the right voltage, and to keep it from overloading, shutting things down when trouble is "seen". Thus your power cycling loop issue.

 

I would guess some of these sensor circuits are going across a connector from one board to another, and they may go "open loop" causing the power supply to loose it's mind and burn out. 

 

If a repair person just swapped out a burned out supply board, but didn't change any cables or connectors attached to it as well, your L3s probably still has the original bug that toasted the supply in the first place..

 

All of this of course is sheer conjecture on my part, just based on experience and your description. It could easily be something else..


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#6 dboomer

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Posted 17 April 2014 - 11:54 AM

I have seen problems like this when the speakers were plugged into surge protector type power strips.  Were yours?

 

The systems are also somewhat sensitive to low voltage (below 100v) so running long extension cables could become a problem if the voltage from the wall also happened to be on the low side.



#7 litesnsirens

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Posted 17 April 2014 - 02:02 PM

Hi all. thanks for the replies. 

 

gordwait, I don't think it's an issue with any Line 6 production no one else that I have seen on these boards has mentioned anything similar to what happened to me nor has my retailer seen this.  The thing both L3Ss had in common was that they were stored in the garage in very cold weather and then transported to the gig and powered up then the power supplies blew one right after the other.  So most likely a condensation issue.

 

Don, yes we use a surge protection power strip, like this one http://www.monsterpr...ay.asp?pin=2142 so maybe you can tell me yes or no if it's better to go straight into the wall or get something else.  Most places we play don't have enough outlets.  I'm not 100% sure if mine is exactly like the one in the picture but it's almost identical, I just don't recall now if it has those read outs that say "120" and "3.0". 


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#8 litesnsirens

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Posted 05 May 2014 - 11:29 AM

So since the last time I posted I have done a few more gigs.  The last gig I did the same thing happened and it was the same L3s.  This time I was ready and unplugged it from the power strip and plugged straight into the wall.  That didn't help, I just couldn't get it to work and the downside was that it was working great during sound check, but then started cycling once we started playing, which was a few hours later.  Unfortunately, there were a few things working against me.  The culprit sub was first in line of the Line 6 link train which means when the sub cut out, everything cut out and secondly, since I use IEMs everything sounded great to me, I had no idea it was happening. Luckily an audience member came and told me what was going on.  So there I was trouble shooting, and finally noticed the L3s power cycling.  I bypassed it to finish the set and then during first break tried to see if I could plug it in different places to see if I could get it going.

 

I'm thinking now that it's not the power bar or the power source of the venue, simply because it's always just this sub and conversely, the other L3s works without fail and so do both of the L3ts.  Of course, you know that when I got it home and fired it up it came on and stayed on.  So my chances of reproducing this issue without just having it happen randomly at a gig are slim.  I guess I'll just report to my supplier and see what they can do.


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#9 dboomer

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Posted 05 May 2014 - 11:49 AM

So Im not clear exactly what is happening.  When you say "cycling" do you mean that  all indication of power shows the box off or are you getting an enumeration error (when the L6 link cannot lock on and establish a sync)?



#10 litesnsirens

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Posted 05 May 2014 - 12:51 PM

It seems that both times it has happened, the unit powers up initially and then at some point it just starts shutting off, like the power is gone everything goes dark then it powers back on figures out what it should be in the L6 link chain (if it stays on long enough) then powers off again etc.

 

It's not that it is on and can't figure out how to configure itself, it shuts right off and then comes back on.  Then I get it home and it works, I specifically used it for a rehearsal at my house yesterday and it worked the whole time.  As I said above it has worked at some gigs in between the two that it acted up at.  and it's always this sub, the other one always works.


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#11 dboomer

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Posted 05 May 2014 - 01:20 PM

Is is it failing at just one venue?  If so are any other Line 6 speakers plugged into the same outlet?  Is the speaker still very cold before you start?

 

If you continually have a problem at just a single venue then I would suspect something funny with the wiring.  Do you have a little line checker and can you determine that the hot and neutral are not reversed?

 

Once you've satisfied yourself that the local AC power is not the issue then I would contact the service department and have them test the power supply in the speaker.



#12 BucF16

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Posted 05 May 2014 - 01:24 PM

It could still be an XLR cord issue.  It looks very similar to a power cycle but it's the speaker resetting when it looses contact with the speakers downline.


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#13 litesnsirens

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 02:46 AM

No it's not just at the same venue, it's happened at two different venues and now at my home.  I set up this particular sub to rehearse on Sunday at my home because I want to keep testing it.  I just use one sub and one L3t for rehearsals.  On Sunday it never cut out.  Last night I fired up the same configuration just to noodle around on guitar and the sound cut out twice.  I'm a little reluctant to think it's the line 6 link because there are times when it will shut down and stay shut down for a few minutes, also this has only started happening after I got the L3s back from repair for the blown power supply.  It worked flawlessly, gigs and rehearsals alike for almost a year up to that point.


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#14 litesnsirens

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 03:16 AM

To give more of a complete answer Don, I should also mention that the two L3 speakers on each side of the venue will be plugged into the same outlet.  So left side L3t and L3s onto one outlet and right side into another.


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#15 dboomer

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 05:39 AM

I just can't tell without actually testing the unit. I'd open a service ticket.

#16 litesnsirens

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 07:37 AM

Thanks Don, I think for now I will take it back to Long and McQuade and tell them what is happening since they did the repair in the first place.  The strange thing is that I got this one L3s back much quicker than the second one.  For the second one I was told they were waiting for a power supply to arrive from Line 6.  So perhaps they were able to repair this one with out putting a whole new power supply in?  If so maybe they should just order me a new power supply and put it in the second one.  L&M will loan me an L3s while I'm waiting for the repair.

 

That said, would opening a support ticket mean that I have to ship my L3s back to you guys?


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#17 dboomer

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 10:19 AM

No ... since you are in Canada just talk to L&M.



#18 litesnsirens

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 12:21 PM

Thanks Don, I appreciate your time on this.


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#19 litesnsirens

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Posted 20 May 2014 - 03:21 AM

Just so I don't leave this story hanging, I just got my L3s back from Long and McQuade.  It seemed so quick that I didn't want to trust it, but the report said they changed the power supply, so I'm hopeful.  It's going to take a few gigs for me to confirm that it's absolutely fixed but I will report back and I suspect this will fix the problem.  For one thing, this was what they did to repair the one that actually worked, but speakers went at the same time and there was never an issue before it needed repair.

 

I think it's only fair to finish up this topic just to be fair to Line 6.  The speakers blowing in the first place was absolutely my fault, since the consensus was my taking them from extreme cold to a warm environment and then firing them up before they had a chance to acclimatize.  This issue only arose after the repair, and to be fair to L & M, they were able to get this particular speaker working without replacing the power supply and the issue was intermittent so there was no way to know that it wasn't really fixed.  This wasn't a design flaw, a lemon, quality control or anything like that.  It was just bad luck!


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#20 Mavril

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Posted 21 May 2014 - 07:35 AM

sorry I didn't see this earlier LnS, you got the right of it in the end. Whenever there is a power supply failure in an electronic device, all components are subjected to a level of stress generally in teh form of current or heat.

The best kinds of faults are consistent but we know that electronics are not that simple. Plenty of discrete components like capacitors and ptcs have teh ability to display the kinds of fault you describe when on the slow death. Factors include length of time running, ambient temperature, humidity, voltage sag, physical orientation etc...

When you have a PSU go (especially a switch mode) replace it all even if it is cheaper to replace the burnt components. This will save any other previously undamaged boards from the rapid ageing/ damage that can occur by a component becoming out of tolerance.

 

Semiconductors are worse when affected by excess heat, damaging time ccts and even junction voltage.

 

Glad you have a working unit now, keep them out of the cold/wet (same as kids)  :)


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#21 dscheidt

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Posted 29 May 2014 - 09:07 PM

I have seen problems like this when the speakers were plugged into surge protector type power strips.  Were yours?

 

The systems are also somewhat sensitive to low voltage (below 100v) so running long extension cables could become a problem if the voltage from the wall also happened to be on the low side.

 

Good to know!!!!  I'm having the same issue... I'll try that tomorrow.


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#22 litesnsirens

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Posted 02 June 2014 - 03:22 AM

Just checking in.  So far so good, a few gigs and a few rehearsals, no sign of power cycling since the new power supply.


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