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Any Plans For Custom Ir Functionality?

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#81 DeanDinosaur

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Posted 21 June 2014 - 03:20 PM

I understand what your saying and I'm with you, but if we are talking the same resolution, what is it that you are trying to accomplish. Do you feel that the pod's cabs and mic's leave some thing to be desired? Or are you looking for more options?

 

I think variety is extremely important as it increases the odds of finding that speaker that matches perfectly to each players individual setup. There are many types of guitar bodies, necks, wood, pickups and other hardware combinations that many times a patch that sounds amazing on some strat sounds completely different on another strat . It's very noticeable not only with POD HD, but with most modelers. In the real world, that's the advantage of buying a head instead of a combo amp, if you ever auditioned different cabinets for the same Head, when you find the right cabinet, the difference is sometimes astonishing. 


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#82 magpie

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Posted 21 June 2014 - 06:41 PM

I understand what your saying and I'm with you, but if we are talking the same resolution, what is it that you are trying to accomplish. Do you feel that the pod's cabs and mic's leave some thing to be desired? Or are you looking for more options?

 

Also, we still do not have an answer to the question that you posed earlier: Can the pod's cabs be completely disabled or bypassed? If the answer is no, then you will never get to the goal that you want to achieve. If they can be, than external IR's may be a worthy experiment. The answer is apparently in post #76 that Akeron put up earlier.

 

 

Rlblues, of course we can bypass the POD's IR cabs since many years way back in several POD models. It works perfectly to do that and load up your favorite IR's in the DAW and get the exact tones we want, not being restricted with a handful of stock IR's. I've done so for many years since the XT model I think. Gear is fun and sometimes I still use my HD desktop when not at home, also using software amp sims and I have recently moved from an axe fx 2 to a kemper profiler.

By your replies it seems to me that you're not in any of these groups that I mentioned earlier, users who:
-always use their own made IR's from their own guitar cabs.
-only use third party IR's.
-like doing eq tone matching IR's & exactly copy guitar tones from songs & recordings with DAW eq matching software like Ozone.

Jay Mitchell's replies to mr logidy in post #111 contains many good points and mentions the inexperience of many users not knowing much about IR's at all.
http://www.thegearpa...=1392604&page=8

The biggest mistake is to buy that logidy pedal and only use the stock IR's. Instead load in your favorite IR's = endless of tone options.
Again Line6 shouldn't focus on convincing those who never use any external IR's and are just fine with the few stock IR's and don't care much about it. Their goal should be to tap into the user group of all those who are mentioned in the list above who already have good knowledge about IR's. To that group loadable IR's is extremely important and a powerful feature that is 100% needed to get the desired tones.
 


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#83 Kristianx510

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Posted 21 June 2014 - 10:56 PM

Ever since I got my POD HD in 2012 I've been waiting for custom IR's. Please let this happen!
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#84 RIblues

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Posted 22 June 2014 - 04:15 AM

Magpie, interesting post, thanks. 

 

You are correct, I do not fall into two of those groups, but I do have experience with third party IR's. The discussion as I understand it, is the ability or lack of ability of the hd500 to load IR's, custom or other wise. Whether Line6 could enable this ability without a severe hit to DSP or other resource/function is the question.

 

Deandinosaur has an interesting thought on how the onboard cabs are integrated which lead me to ask the question of whether or not they could be "completely" bypassed in the pod (not in a DAW) with the ability to load custom IR's. This of course would relate to playing live with the pod.

 

Maybe it's as simple as utilizing the effects loop of the pod and a Logidy type product as I have read that someone at TGP is doing. But that is not what the original thread starter was asking, who by the way, we have not heard from since.


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#85 DeanDinosaur

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Posted 22 June 2014 - 05:44 AM

This can be accomplished one way or another.  Digitech engineers worked on weekends to introduce the Beta Firmware that supports external IRS (Stan wasn't just one person). That extended the life of the GSP1101.

 

I'm not suggesting that Line 6 engineers do the same, but if Line6 adds this feature to POD HD, they will add market shares and they will secure their current share of customers who might move to AMPLIFIRE by Studio Devil, or even revalver 4 that's very promising for those who want to use a laptop live by introducing a live mode where scrolling through presets is seemless


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#86 riffy1

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Posted 22 June 2014 - 10:52 PM

I have been advocating the use of external IRs for a yearor more. They really do transform the HD500!!!

~G~
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#87 loreweaver

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 12:16 AM

during the weekend i did a lot of comparison between stock cabs, recabinet/amp designer pro (just cab), amproom and the space designer with free ir...........

 

the feel is better with all the other combo than the stock cab......

 

let me explain......

first, my interest is basically on high gain sounds.

 

when i use internal cab i'm basically forced to use fireball with xxl + 409...... other combo are by my side really unuseful...... i don't want to tell you that are totally unuseful...... for me every combo i tried is not completely satisfiyng...........

 

when i use external ir..... i almost love every amp....... treadplate become fantastic, organic, clean and chunky but not boomy.....  uber and soldano lovely......

when i use ir i basically use 4X12 cab with v30 and 57 on or off axis depending from the sound..........

 

well with stock cab i never been able to use this combo with satisfaction.... there is every time some kind of "grain" i don't like....... sincerely.... i prefer almost every other cab than the pod.........

 

also as live sound....... we play direct into the foh...... we tried yesterday with the full pa...... sounds better with ir.... is becoming prominent and better focused in the mix........

 

this is my experience with cab... i m not a dps engineer.... but stock cab lack on low end (bit confused), mid range (not so "noose") and high freq (the high on the 57 are really "sizzly")....... i had better feeling with every ir player i used.......

 

so if you guys would let us the chance to load our ir would be great...... and unnecessary to spend lot of money for something different :-)


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#88 Digital_Igloo

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 08:36 AM

Selecting "No Cab" in POD HD500/X completely bypasses it. Make sure the output mode is set correctly, however. For FRFR use, Studio/Direct will likely provide the most satisfying results, but as always, trust your ears.

 

The HD's cabs are indeed based on convolution, but we didn't just slap an XXX-point IR in there. There's a lot of clever tweaking, filtering, and optimization to get the most out of our cabs (perhaps akin to what Cliff does with AxeFX II's Ultra Res IRs—within the confines of HD—but I'm not sure), and unfortunately, there's no easy way to apply the same process to third-party or user IRs. Hence, there's no way for third-party IRs to take up the same DSP resources as the stock cabs.


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#89 daedae

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 09:24 AM

 

The HD's cabs are indeed based on convolution, but we didn't just slap an XXX-point IR in there. There's a lot of clever tweaking, filtering, and optimization to get the most out of our cabs (perhaps akin to what Cliff does with AxeFX II's Ultra Res IRs—within the confines of HD—but I'm not sure), and unfortunately, there's no easy way to apply the same process to third-party or user IRs. Hence, there's no way for third-party IRs to take up the same DSP resources as the stock cabs.

 

It would seem not everybody agrees that the tweaking is clever and/or gets the most out of your cabs ;) Since it's already convolution based and there is some max IR sample count that will work within the current processing confines, I wonder at the cost/benefit analysis of just letting users splat down custom IRs that fit those confines sans filtering, optimization, and the like -- nothing other than converting to the format the POD uses, and maybe even swapping the storage with a stock cab if the storage is limited as well. Would the effort buy enough goodwill to justify the cost of the developers and tests, regardless of the difference in sound quality, or is the concern that it would sound poor enough that users would say "If you weren't going to do it right, you shouldn't have done it at all?"


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#90 DeanDinosaur

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 12:59 PM

Selecting "No Cab" in POD HD500/X completely bypasses it. Make sure the output mode is set correctly, however. For FRFR use, Studio/Direct will likely provide the most satisfying results, but as always, trust your ears.

 

The HD's cabs are indeed based on convolution, but we didn't just slap an XXX-point IR in there. There's a lot of clever tweaking, filtering, and optimization to get the most out of our cabs (perhaps akin to what Cliff does with AxeFX II's Ultra Res IRs—within the confines of HD—but I'm not sure), and unfortunately, there's no easy way to apply the same process to third-party or user IRs. Hence, there's no way for third-party IRs to take up the same DSP resources as the stock cabs.

That is very interesting.  Thanks for clarifying.  The other day, I decided to run the HD in the Loop of Eleven Rack to use Eleven Rack Cabinets "Speaker breakup".  The line 6 cabinets always sounded louder with boosted Lows and Highs as if someone applied a BBE sonic Maximizer effect to them which has a dulling effect on mids.

 

I've always got really good results with my HD by itself, but on almost all of my patches , I always have the BASS , treble and presence well below noon. Line 6 had to add a High Pass filter to the Cabinet to cut the annoying BASS as many complained about the extra bass and highs. Obviously not everyone appreciates the "sonic enhancer" sounds because they tend to make the sound harsh and boomy in general.

 

But since louder equals better, I think I've been tricked out of laziness as I  automatically presumed that line 6 cabs were better because they were always louder and I never adjusted the volume equally!

 

Conclusion: IMHO and based on what I hear, line 6 enhancement to the Canbinets include: Sonic Maximizer type enhancements to the lows and highs (bad for mids), and some compression similar to what you find in loudness maximezers (limiting);  I tested with a peak meter, Line 6 cab was always louder than external IR and it peaked much lower!! 

 

Solution: Not to be mean but to be direct: Line 6 should remove all  the enhancements from the cabs and leave that up to the user . The main advantage of convolution is faithful recreations of the Cabinet or the room (for Reverb), why enhance a faithful recreation by "sonic enhancers" or artificial  sweeteners. Can we have the enhancers/Sweeteners on the side and instead be able to load our own natural faithful IRs. With the DSP saved from removing these enhancements from the Cabinets, one would think that it shouldn't be an issue unless the line 6 IR is very low resolution and it really needs the enhancements.

 

Be that as it may, I still stand by the Idea of adding an IR loader that can load 512-points IR even if it takes half of the DSP. You don't like it, don't use it. If you like the sonicaly maximized/enhanced sound, then you don't have to do a thing if an IR loader is ever added.  I can only imagine how good the HD would sound to many who don't care for the enhancers type sound.  That explains why line 6 doesn't have a sonic enhancer type effect, while other companies do. The sound is already enhanced and any more small enhancement will completely destroy the sound.


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#91 Digital_Igloo

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 04:12 PM

I wasn't around for the initial HD cab listening tests, but from what I gather, any optimization and filtering has negligible sonic impact on the resultant tone. "Optimization and filtering" doesn't imply any sort of sonic maximizing or EQ.

 

The point is that an HD cab block can't simply be replaced with a user or third-party IR.


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#92 Vacantplanet

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 05:32 PM

If that's truly the case, could we perhaps get the percentages on the Eq's fixed? That's one of the top 3 complaints about the HDs. You can scour the board and see multiple instances of users being unsatisfied with how the EQs present their settings. Also, is there ANY chance of new amp models (5150, Diezal, ext?) Many users have said they'd gladly pay for more amps, myself being among them. And thank you, Igloo, you're one of the only representatives on here that have actually responded to people.


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#93 stumblinman

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 05:34 PM

I think they believe they've got you ready to cry uncle and install IR capability based on this thread as if it's your decision.

You have been very patient and about as forthcoming as I've seen an L6 employee be about potential product update possibilities. Thank you for even involving yourself in this and falling down the rabbit hole with these guys.

I must say though:

How much DSP would it use to change EQ's to Hz?

😛

I wasn't around for the initial HD cab listening tests, but from what I gather, any optimization and filtering has negligible sonic impact on the resultant tone. "Optimization and filtering" doesn't imply any sort of sonic maximizing or EQ.

The point is that an HD cab block can't simply be replaced with a user or third-party IR.


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#94 stumblinman

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 05:36 PM

Omfg you type faster than me!

If that's truly the case, could we perhaps get the percentages on the Eq's fixed? That's one of the top 3 complaints about the HDs. You can scour the board and see multiple instances of users being unsatisfied with how the EQs present their settings. Also, is there ANY chance of new amp models (5150, Diezal, ext?) Many users have said they'd gladly pay for more amps, myself being among them. And thank you, Igloo, you're one of the only representatives on here that have actually responded to people.


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#95 DeanDinosaur

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 05:59 PM

...The point is that an HD cab block can't simply be replaced with a user or third-party IR.

I'm not sure 100% what you mean by that, but I'm taking it to mean that disabling the CAB and using external IRs using a PC or MAC plugin or something like the Torpedo or Logidy isn't advised or supported because it's not  apples to apples. I'm I correct?


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#96 DeanDinosaur

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 06:05 PM

.... Also, is there ANY chance of new amp models (5150, Diezal, ext?) ....

This thread is about improving the Amps' quality and getting better IRs functionality.  Please don't take this the wrong way, but POD XT/X3/POD Farm all have 5150, Diezal, etc


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#97 DeanDinosaur

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 06:17 PM

... Thank you for even involving yourself in this and falling down the rabbit hole with these guys.

I must say though:
 

I'm sure everyone appreciates DIgital_Iglo, but most new worthwhile products are developed in  rabbit holes, and developers from most companies participate in their own products threads (Chris Kemper, Cliff chase, Michael Ljunggren, etc etc,,,,).  it's very good for business also. I was on the verge of completely giving up on line 6 until Igloo showed up. 


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#98 Vacantplanet

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 06:20 PM

This thread is about improving the Amps' quality and getting better IRs functionality.  Please don't take this the wrong way, but POD XT/X3/POD Farm all have 5150, Diezal, etc

No offense take at all, sir. And I digress that is off-topic, so I'll return to the topic at hand. Is there some kind of power amp modeling included in the cab blocks that would hinder/alter the tone if replaced? And again, cheers for Igloo.


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#99 DeanDinosaur

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 06:55 PM

No offense take at all, sir. And I digress that is off-topic, so I'll return to the topic at hand. Is there some kind of power amp modeling included in the cab blocks that would hinder/alter the tone if replaced? And again, cheers for Igloo.

My understanding based on scouring various forums is that line 6 will never truly divulge what's in the CAB, What Igloo just stated is the most I've ever read from anyone from line 6 regarding their speaker simulations. I personally think there's definitely Power amp/ speaker interaction programming residing in the line 6 Cab as the finger interaction is completely gone or dramatically changes any time I load external IRs in a plugin.

Iglo talked about filtering but to my ears and looking at spectrum analyzer, the line 6 cabs are spiked in the lows and highs which suggests EQ/sonic enhancements. If you lower the amps BASS and treble/presence below 40%, you will have outstanding patches. Many players struggled or are still struggling with the HD and many gave up and switched for this very reason, but this is getting lost on line 6 since the HD is truly a major advancement in modeling and it's selling quite well. Most players expect to be able to put the Bass or treble past noon and still get a nice bright sound, unfortunately with the HD it does get harsh (I personally don't care , I don't think I ever have a single patch in my HD 500 that has the bass or treble/Presence past noon and I love many of the sounds I get from the HD. But I can understand others' complaints and I know it can be improved if external Irs are truly supported.


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#100 aussiejoe

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 07:19 PM

"Selecting "No Cab" in POD HD500/X completely bypasses it."

"The point is that an HD cab block can't simply be replaced with a user or third-party IR"

 

These 2 points seem contradictory to me.

If "No Cab" completely bypasses the cab block then shouldn't a 3rd party IR should be able to replace it?


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#101 phil_m

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 08:25 PM

"Selecting "No Cab" in POD HD500/X completely bypasses it."
"The point is that an HD cab block can't simply be replaced with a user or third-party IR"
 
These 2 points seem contradictory to me.
If "No Cab" completely bypasses the cab block then shouldn't a 3rd party IR should be able to replace it?



I believe he's saying that it would not be a simple thing to allow third party IR files to be loaded onto the HD in a way where the IR file could just be dropped into the cab block in the tone. If you want to use a third party IR through a software plugin or other piece of hardware, you certainly can.
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#102 Digital_Igloo

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Posted 24 June 2014 - 08:04 AM

How much DSP would it use to change EQ's to Hz?

 

Zero. However, it would require a significant rewrite to the entire system architecture, because as I understand it (I'm not an embedded firmware engineer), it deals with the method in which the MCU and DSP communicate.

 

So I'm not saying "it ain't gonna happen", but it's not nearly as easy as some think.


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#103 Digital_Igloo

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Posted 24 June 2014 - 08:09 AM

I'm not sure 100% what you mean by that, but I'm taking it to mean that disabling the CAB and using external IRs using a PC or MAC plugin or something like the Torpedo or Logidy isn't advised or supported because it's not  apples to apples. I'm I correct?

There should be no issue with disabling POD HD's cabs and running it into products like the Torpedo C.A.B. or Logidy EPSi. In fact, I've used third-party cabs in Logic's SpaceDesigner (and others) many times with great results.


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#104 Digital_Igloo

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Posted 24 June 2014 - 08:18 AM

I believe he's saying that it would not be a simple thing to allow third party IR files to be loaded onto the HD in a way where the IR file could just be dropped into the cab block in the tone. If you want to use a third party IR through a software plugin or other piece of hardware, you certainly can.

Correct. Thanks, Phil.  :)

 

It's not that it's impossible to add IR support to POD HD; just that user or third-party IRs can't be quickly or easily processed in such a way that they'd use the same amount of DSP as our stock cabs. We also have to understand the impact of supporting a new type of block that may use over half of a tone's DSP (at the expense of amp blocks, effects blocks, and dual paths). It's not just a technical issue—it's also a usability issue.


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#105 Digital_Igloo

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Posted 24 June 2014 - 08:34 AM

I'm sure everyone appreciates DIgital_Iglo, but most new worthwhile products are developed in  rabbit holes, and developers from most companies participate in their own products threads (Chris Kemper, Cliff chase, Michael Ljunggren, etc etc,,,,).  it's very good for business also. I was on the verge of completely giving up on line 6 until Igloo showed up. 

 

Cheers, Dean!

 

Full disclosure—Line 6 is owned by Yamaha, which means we're now part of a publicly traded company. There are all sorts of new rules governing what we can and can't say on a public forum. Chris, Cliff, and others are in the fortunate situation where they can be as open and transparent as they like. Line 6 legally cannot. Instead, we rely on IdeaScale, extensive email surveys, ridiculous amounts of forum lurking, and one-on-one visits with everyone from kids starting out on guitar to world-touring rock stars.


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#106 joel_brown

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Posted 24 June 2014 - 10:29 AM

I would like to say "Thank You" to Digital_Igloo for his responses. 


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#107 gunpointmetal

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Posted 24 June 2014 - 01:21 PM

Cheers, Dean!

 

Full disclosure—Line 6 is owned by Yamaha, which means we're now part of a publicly traded company. There are all sorts of new rules governing what we can and can't say on a public forum. Chris, Cliff, and others are in the fortunate situation where they can be as open and transparent as they like. Line 6 legally cannot. Instead, we rely on IdeaScale, extensive email surveys, ridiculous amounts of forum lurking, and one-on-one visits with everyone from kids starting out on guitar to world-touring rock stars.

 

So previously, there COULD have been a lot more interaction, but it was a choice not to? Either way, your input as of late is much appreciated all around!


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#108 MiguelMarquez

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 07:34 AM

Just chiming in to say the following: If the POD HD series allowed for custom IR's, the Axe FX would see its pedestal endangered.

In my opinion it'd make much more sense to offer an update with better cabs, courtesy of Line 6. Let's not delude ourselves: most people dislike the Cabs included in the HD models with a passion. Specially those who play metal and complain about not being able to dial in a good metal sound using the factory cabs and mics.


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#109 TheRealZap

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 08:36 AM

It's funny how you say let's not delude. Then proceed to speak for "most people" personally I have no issues with the cabs. With so many wats to sculpt a tone on the pod hds it's a real shame to get hung up on one detail.
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#110 MiguelMarquez

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 10:00 AM

It's funny how you say let's not delude. Then proceed to speak for "most people" personally I have no issues with the cabs. With so many wats to sculpt a tone on the pod hds it's a real shame to get hung up on one detail.

 

I'll rephrase that: most people who are into metal and happen to record at home happen to prefer external IR's, of which there are many out there (perhaps too many). The other day I realized I was able to get a great rhythm guitar sound by bypassing the cab on one particular preset and using a Mesa/Boogie cab impulse response. It's "OK" to do this if I am at home, recording. But if I feel like jamming and switching from a distorted patch to a clean one, then I'd have to figure out how to deactivate the impulse loader within Cubase so that it doesn't colour my clean patch (clean sounds are excellent straight out of the POD).

It's about having options, or flexibility.


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#111 TheRealZap

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 10:04 AM

options are good won't deny you that.... although i do find that too many options sometimes slows down my creative efforts...

 

i still think you're painting alot of people with your personal brush though...

 

i could just as easily say that the majority of metal players probably don't know what IR's are...

no more or less scientific than your statement...

 

perhaps among those that know what IR's are, your statement could be an obvious truth... 

but it's all just best guesses on our part.


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#112 MiguelMarquez

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 10:11 AM

options are good won't deny you that.... although i do find that too many options sometimes slows down my creative efforts...

 

i still think you're painting alot of people with your personal brush though...

 

i could just as easily say that the majority of metal players probably don't know what IR's are...

no more or less scientific than your statement...

 

perhaps among those that know what IR's are, your statement could be an obvious truth... 

but it's all just best guesses on our part.

 

I agree on having a whole plethora of options being some sort of double-whammy. I can only imagine how Axe FX users must feel considering how many amps and effects and routing options they get.

The players that are also recording their own stuff and are serious about it are probably a minority in the metal community. But it's a thriving, growing minority.


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#113 atoni

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 10:24 PM

Yes!! Custom IR's. Please, do it!!!


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