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Dream Stage Cutting In And Out During End Of Performance


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#1 JeffersteinVS

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 09:46 AM

So this is the 3rd time this has happened to me. very embarrassing i must say. At some point later in the show the system starts cutting in and out out of what seems like all the speakers. 

 

I am running the m20d mixer with 3 l2m and 2 l3t and one l3s vis L6 link using 25 ft Hosa 110oem aes/ebu cables. anyone else having this problem? I have a local music awards that I will be running sound for with 10 bands in a month needless to say Im very concerned

 

http://www.amazon.co...ds=hosa aes/ebu


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#2 ArneLine6

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 10:25 AM

This sounds like a cable problem. If a connection using the L6 Link cables is interrupted the speakers enumerate themselves again.
There could be a broken cable or maybe several cables were connected to create a longer line? It is also possible that one one speaker was power cycled or broken but I would start with checking the cables.
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#3 silverhead

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 10:27 AM

This sounds like something is wrong in the M20d itself or with an L6 LINK cable very early in the chain - the one leading from the M20d or from the first speaker connected to it. After testing all cables I would update the M20d firmware.


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#4 Digital-sound

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 11:10 AM

I don't have that problem, but will mention something similar. I have just started losing the Aux A output. It is intermittent. Can't recreate all the time. I thought I solved it with a firmware reinstall. All seemed good. But then setting up for the gig, it was gone. It doesn't go completely, just has to be cranked full, and then the IEM body pack on fill too. And it is still a little quiet. At the gig, I power cycled twice and it came back to normal. But an hour later, just before the start of the gig, it was very faint again. Have changed cord a couple times of course. Not sure if it is hardware of software. We use all four aux sends, but one is on the L6 link so I mapped the Aux A to be that one, and all is good.

I assume it will have to go for service t check the jack? To determine if it is hardware? Seems odd the jack would go. The cord is never removed from it and it is permanently racked with the cord going to a Shure IEM system. So doesn't get banged or unplugged. But is packed around so there is a possibility. But I know there is a headphone problem too that I am pretty sure is not hardware too. It has been mentioned before in another thread.

Also, when it does come back, it isn't after moving the cord. It seems more related to a power cycle or firmware reinstall.
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#5 JeffersteinVS

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 12:27 PM

I never connect more than one cable together to make a longer cable. I replaced the ends on the aes ebu with neutrik right angle connectors to attempt to solve the issue with the cables coming loose and breaking the l6 connection. but the problem happened again. the m20d gets real laggy with just one ipad and all 16 channels being active. im worried the m20d is having issues. I also have the headphone output going to left only issue randomly 


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#6 BucF16

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 03:05 PM

I've had this happen frequently and it's always been a cable connection.

 

Trying to train my bandmates to make sure the connections are solid and tight. 

 

If this happens again, call up Line6 Link properties page and see where/if the "downrange" speakers are cutting out and that will show you where the problem is.

 

I had to replace 2 cords last night in the first set for what sounds like the same problem.  Worked perfectly after that but it was literal show-stopper.


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#7 JeffersteinVS

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 06:14 PM

I've had this happen frequently and it's always been a cable connection.

 

Trying to train my bandmates to make sure the connections are solid and tight. 

 

If this happens again, call up Line6 Link properties page and see where/if the "downrange" speakers are cutting out and that will show you where the problem is.

 

I had to replace 2 cords last night in the first set for what sounds like the same problem.  Worked perfectly after that but it was literal show-stopper.

why did you replace the cables? were they just loose? are you using aes/ebu or standard mic cable? 


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#8 JeffersteinVS

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 06:19 PM

also was the cable noticeably loose? none of the cables were fallen out when it happened to me but it did stop when i rechecked the connections and pushed on 


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#9 BucF16

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 07:17 PM

I had a couple cables that just wouldn't snap in tight and stay.  They seem good at first but when people start moving around and band members step on the cords or bump the monitors, or through the vibration of the speaker, the things work their way loose.  One fell out entirely.  Tried to fix with gaffers tape but wouldn't stay tight and cause speaker cycling as the system went into reset several times.

 

My band mates are not as tuned into the system as I am, but I'm slowly getting them trained.  I can't set up everything by myself.  Plus, last night because of the MMA fight, the bar we were playing at would not let us soundcheck.  Consequently we had a couple of issues to work out in the first set.

 

My point is, if you have an M20D, you should call up the "manage L6 link devices" page and look at what's happening their while your speakers are misbehaving.  That's frequently a great clue for the first place to look.  If devices are dropping off the page and reappearing, then I would think that's where you have the bad cable or connection.


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#10 JeffersteinVS

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Posted 28 April 2014 - 05:24 AM

It kills me because the cables have really high quality connectors on them and yet the male without the lock must be the culprit still. I am thinking i need to modify the speakers to have some sort of velcro that i canstrap and help keep the cables pushed in


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#11 JeffersteinVS

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Posted 28 April 2014 - 05:27 AM

seems to be the monitors which makes sense since those connectors are fighting gravity


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#12 eukieb42

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Posted 28 April 2014 - 03:39 PM

TO DIGITAL SOUND. I had a similar problem with B C D Monitor outs. First I loss Mon A, then during the Gig I lost Mon B. Managed to get through the Gig. Next day I decided to go through the whole M20d and discovered it was the TRIM TRACKING that was causing the problem. If you have too many Chans. Active with TRIM TRACKING it appear as if the Mixer gets confused and begins to act up. I am now very mindfull of the number of Chans I have with Trim Tracking activated. Just thought that I will share this experience.
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#13 Digital-sound

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Posted 28 April 2014 - 08:53 PM

TO DIGITAL SOUND. I had a similar problem with B C D Monitor outs. First I loss Mon A, then during the Gig I lost Mon B. Managed to get through the Gig. Next day I decided to go through the whole M20d and discovered it was the TRIM TRACKING that was causing the problem. If you have too many Chans. Active with TRIM TRACKING it appear as if the Mixer gets confused and begins to act up. I am now very mindfull of the number of Chans I have with Trim Tracking activated. Just thought that I will share this experience.

Interesting. I keep trim tracking on everything, but generally, I only use 8 channels. However, I will try what you did. Interesting you managed to figure out it was the trim tracking. I will try that update my experience this weekend.

(JeffersteinVS - sorry to hijack thread a little)
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#14 JeffersteinVS

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Posted 29 April 2014 - 06:12 AM

No problem Digital-Sound!  thanks for the information eukieb42. Im wondering how you came to the determination it was trim tracking. I infact use it on all channels as well!


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#15 JeffersteinVS

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Posted 29 April 2014 - 06:26 AM

l6velvcro_zps92a5ef73.jpg

 

this is my idea to help keep those dam cables from vibrating out of the monitors. what you guys think?  


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#16 Nitroflash

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Posted 29 April 2014 - 10:13 AM

Hi guys,

 

I have the same issue. Or at least pretty similar.

 

I have the m20d and run 2 L3T mounted on speaker tripods, 2 L3S horizontally placed, and 3 L3M's for monitoring.

 

When I connect everything goes smooth for the first hour or so. Last Saturday I was engineering sound for a band on a wedding and while the band was playing at the Waltz everything was fine, then there was a break and all good. 

 

But the issue came right after the band started to play again, the second part of the chain of speakers started to misbehave. The way I usually connect is LIne6 Link Output - L3T Input - L3T Out - L3S In   and so forth. Until there my chain works flawlessly, the problem seems to be after I connect the secon poart of the chain... the next L3T and L3S and the 3 L3M's 

 

After some period of time, the speakers begin to reconfigure themselves as I can see that happening at the L6 Link screen at the M20D, at first I thought it was a flaw from the mixer, and then the power consumption was just too much and the speakers weren't getting as much power as they need to. But Sincerely, I don't have a clue now as what to do.

 

Any thoughts? Will be really appreciated!

 

 


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#17 dboomer

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Posted 29 April 2014 - 10:22 AM

What firmware is in your L3/S's? You can read it in the update page in the mixer. V1.05 is the most current version and is more stable when using multiple speakers.

Every time I have seen speakers re- enumerate it has been because a cable was kicked and there was momentary loss of signal in the L6 line. You may have bad cables or bad jacks on the boxes themselves so you need to carefully check through them.

#18 JeffersteinVS

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Posted 29 April 2014 - 11:08 AM

I am on 1.05 for all speakers and as you can see above using high quality aes/ebu with neutrik right angles. I will one by one check the speakers l6 jacks tonight


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#19 JeffersteinVS

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Posted 29 April 2014 - 11:11 AM

I also know for a fact that during the show saturday things were taped down good and when the cut out happened no one touched or stepped on anything.


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#20 SiWatts69

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Posted 29 April 2014 - 01:24 PM

Just wondering... Your right angled Neutriks... Are you using them on speakers used for monitors on their sides? From what I've seen of the right angled connectors, they weigh nearly twice as much as the inline connectors and I guess might be susceptible to vibration gradually easing them out. As such I reckon your Velcro strap idea is a good one. All mine are inlines. The upward pressure formed in the cable curve possibly helps keep them in place... anti-gravity for cables ;-)
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#21 Digital-sound

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Posted 29 April 2014 - 05:14 PM

Hi guys,
 
I have the same issue. Or at least pretty similar.
 
I have the m20d and run 2 L3T mounted on speaker tripods, 2 L3S horizontally placed, and 3 L3M's for monitoring.
 
When I connect everything goes smooth for the first hour or so. Last Saturday I was engineering sound for a band on a wedding and while the band was playing at the Waltz everything was fine, then there was a break and all good. 
 
But the issue came right after the band started to play again, the second part of the chain of speakers started to misbehave. The way I usually connect is LIne6 Link Output - L3T Input - L3T Out - L3S In   and so forth. Until there my chain works flawlessly, the problem seems to be after I connect the secon poart of the chain... the next L3T and L3S and the 3 L3M's 
 
After some period of time, the speakers begin to reconfigure themselves as I can see that happening at the L6 Link screen at the M20D, at first I thought it was a flaw from the mixer, and then the power consumption was just too much and the speakers weren't getting as much power as they need to. But Sincerely, I don't have a clue now as what to do.
 
Any thoughts? Will be really appreciated!


Maybe, something to try, once you have the system configured to your liking, turn off the "auto assign" in the L6 link menu. If it isn't related to a cable movement, and is something the board has decided to do on it's own, this should prevent it. Something I would try anyway.
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#22 dboomer

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Posted 29 April 2014 - 08:46 PM

 
After some period of time, the speakers begin to reconfigure themselves as I can see that happening at the L6 Link screen at the M20D, at first I thought it was a flaw from the mixer!


That would be normal if not every speaker was being recognized because of a poor connection. Remember the system sets itself up based on the total number of speakers it sees. So if it started out with say 8 speakers but then it only saw 7 in the chain it would reconfigure itself for a seven speaker setup. Probably the monitor mixes would shift to different speakers.

#23 JeffersteinVS

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 06:01 AM

Yes I am , Regular xlr ends stick out so far they almost hit the ground when in monitor stance with the fold out legs.


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#24 malcevansmusic

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Posted 03 May 2014 - 05:25 PM

Has anyone else come across the 'Trim Tracking causing the monitors to cut out' idea? I've just got back from playing a wedding and my poor keys player had a nightmare with his monitor cutting out throughout the gig. The other monitors did it too, to a lesser extent. I've checked all my channels and I found that the line out from the bass into the M20d had trim tracking on, and the gain is now very low (can't remember what the gain was at the start of the gig). I also had a mic that I used for speeches on another channel and that had trim tracking on too. I inadvertently left the XLR plugged in after removing the mic. Would this be an issue?

 

I love the idea of the M20d and the sound/simplicity of it, but I need something that doesn't have these quirky issues!

 

I don't use digital cables to connect the speakers, so I've not got the cable falling out of the socket issue...


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#25 ArneLine6

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Posted 03 May 2014 - 07:42 PM

Have you made sure that the power connectors are well secured? Without knowing what exactly is going on I would look at the cables first. Including the power. Trim tracking does not affect levels. When an input is too hot and trim tracking turns the pre amp down to prevent clipping the gain is made up digitally so the level stays exactly the same.
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#26 malcevansmusic

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Posted 04 May 2014 - 12:36 AM

All power connectors were secure. We changed a monitor mid-gig to try and cure the problem. 


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#27 malcevansmusic

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Posted 05 May 2014 - 12:18 AM

If the main out is peaking, or at least changing from a green flashing bar to orange flashing bar on the M20d screen, would that affect the monitor signal?


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#28 dboomer

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Posted 05 May 2014 - 11:58 AM

No.  They are independent.

 

Just checking.  When you say you monitor is cutting out do you mean all sound stops from the monitor or just that the level drops (or even independent channels drop)?

 

What happened when you swapped monitors?



#29 Digital-sound

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Posted 05 May 2014 - 02:03 PM

In my case, the level drops. I noticed it in my A aux only. Which is connected to an IEM system. I had to turn the monitor send all the way up, and then turn the input level all the way up. It is the Shure psm 200 system. With both levels on full, I could hear signal, and the LED on the shure system was lighting up green ocasionally. (It should be red and distorted at that level). I switched the aux over to the other IEM unit (same brand/model) and the same problem. Extremely low signal. I switched cords of course, and I tried Aux B in both units which worked fine. I backed up presets, and did the firmware reinstall procedure. It worked fine. I restored my backup, and still working fine. I went to the gig and set up. Not working. Reinstall firmware and restore backup, and all is good again. Came back to do the gig....not working! Same issue....extremely low input level). I switched the cord from Aux A to Aux D and it was fine. Aux D was supplying a L2m floor monitor so I exchanged the two so I could use the L6 link on the instead of the XLR out. I didn't try the firmware reinstall due to time.

So on my case, when set up using the L6 link, everything works as expected with monitor sends. But, when using the XLR out, I have this problem. It could be the jack in my case. I had asked before, but will ask again. Is there a way for me to confirm a faulty jack without sending it in? Because I do admit, it could purely be a fluke that it worked after reinstalling firmware.
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#30 dboomer

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Posted 05 May 2014 - 03:58 PM

Could be the jack, could be the analog output amps, could be the cable.  The fact that the L6 link level doesn't drop suggests you didn't do anything funny in the bus mix.  Firmware probably shouldn't make a difference as the L6 link outs worked perfectly.

 

You could confirm a faulty "output" but not necessarily the jack.  You would put in a test tone with a known amount add no gain and see if you get the same output.

 

But this is an intermittent problem.  It happens over time?  I would play a test tone loop into the mixer and measure the output over time.  I would suggest sending the tone loop onto all 4 monitor busses with everything running plain vanilla.  Then monitor the level of all 4 outputs.  better if you could record all 4 channels for an hour or two then look at them with a visual editor.  You should be able to quickly see any drop offs that way.  



#31 Digital-sound

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Posted 07 May 2014 - 12:11 PM

Good idea. Recording them for a few hours would definitely let me know if anything is happening without touching it. Things changed in much less than an hour even.

It does seem intermittent, but has not been happening for very long. Just started a couple weeks ago. No gigs this weekend so will have time to test.

It seems like a "no brainer" cable problem. But plugging the same cable into the Baux worked fine. But I will continue to troubleshoot.

Thanks,
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#32 BucF16

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Posted 07 May 2014 - 06:44 PM

If the main out is peaking, or at least changing from a green flashing bar to orange flashing bar on the M20d screen, would that affect the monitor signal?

I've had the speaker show red if the band is playing while the XLR cord is going bad.  I initially thought it was a power supply problem since we weren't that loud.  However it turned out to be a bad XLR connection, that when fixed, worked fine the rest of the evening.


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#33 Digital-sound

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Posted 31 May 2014 - 08:36 AM

I have now become a victim of this problem. And because I had read this thread, I put up the L6 assignment page on my ipad to watch while I played. And sure enough, I could watch it resetting everything. Just like a cable was unplugged. But I have been playing with this for about a year now. All standard XLR cables, with a 50' length, and even a couple 3' pieces I use to make set up more convenient. So a couple connections in the run too! Crazy, but worked awesome for almost a year.

Now, I am gonna do it right and see if it helps. If it is a loose connection, I suppose it won't help. But at least I will have the correct cables, and no connections between speakers. Just speaker to speaker. Will update my findings.
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#34 Digital-sound

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Posted 31 May 2014 - 03:09 PM

No cables in the closest cities to me. They are not large cities though. I will have to order them.

In the meantime, I went back to the venue. Our problem was affecting all the signals. My chain started with the one floor monitor we use. So I am suspecting that. I wired the speakers in the opposite setup now. Went to a sub on one side, up to the main, then over to the other sub, and then the other main, and finally to the monitor. And now, if the monitor was the problem, and the guitar player maybe moved or kicked it, it will only be that speaker that goes down. However, if it happens the same as last night, it is probably safe to assume it is the board. Using a new cable (but still not the proper one). I just finished playing around with unplugging different speakers. I also set the "auto config" to "off" so when one does get connected, nothing happens to the others. Again, unless it is the first one.

I also laid out some other cables so I am ready to switch to analog outs in about a minute. But I also noticed last night, when I went to analog, the left output was quieter than the right. I had to put the left speaker gain pot to almost the 3 o'clock position to match the right which was at the 12 o'clock position. I even rebooted everything to make sure it was all reset. I forgot to double check that this afternoon but will before we play tonight so I can be ready for when the little "gremlins" show up to "help" us out! Ha!
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#35 Digital-sound

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Posted 01 June 2014 - 01:06 AM

All went very well. No sound trouble at all. Definitely have to concur it is a cable, or a jack. Call it whatever, but it is related to "breaking a connection" when the speakers re-enumerate.
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#36 JeffersteinVS

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Posted 03 June 2014 - 07:06 AM

my velcro mod has been working very well last 8 gigs no issues. i fasten two pieces of velcro and used the 90 degree cables to keep them tight


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#37 jaminjimlp

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Posted 04 June 2014 - 05:01 AM

I had the same issue at our last gig and several times before, it always happens towards the end of the show and the m20 D is very warm this last show it happened after I cranked up the mains, in the next song is where it started to do it and I ran back and turned it down and the problem stopped for the rest of the gig, I though the m20d got hot. Thinking back it seem For me it always seems to happen when I tried to get a little more loudness.
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#38 Digital-sound

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Posted 04 June 2014 - 05:06 AM

I had the same issue at our last gig and several times before, it always happens towards the end of the show and the m20 D is very warm this last show it happened after I cranked up the mains, in the next song is where it started to do it and I ran back and turned it down and the problem stopped for the rest of the gig, I though the m20d got hot. Thinking back it seem For me it always seems to happen when I tried to get a little more loudness.


That is when it happened to us too. It really seems it must be vibration. I am certain that is what happened in my case.
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