Not happy with JTV-59 Variax Strat modeling

[lasvideo]

So Ive had the JTV-59 for about 4 months and have  given it a real workout. At the end of the day Im not happy with the Strat modeling. I even downloaded the HD Workbench files from this site where the quack was tweeked. It was  noble attempt, but it just doesnt cut it.

 

Must go with Plan B.

[clay-man]

Cool, yeah yeah, rollback to 1.9.

 

Can someone tell me what isn't good about the strat besides the fact that you don't like the tone? Is it more realistic or not, because from what I've heard I thought it was more spot on?

 

Can someone do an A/B of the strat model and a strat?

[lasvideo]

LOL! Actually this is plan B.

 

http://www.rainbowguitars.com/guitar/fender/american-standard-stratocaster-hss-sienna-sunburst/0110102747/fe

 

Lets face it. Tone is everything. It doesnt have the varying degrees of spank and clarity a real strat does.

[TheRealZap]

I personally love the new strat, more dynamics than 1.9 and more of the tone/bite i expect from a strat... no problem getting the quack i want out of it...

i'm going to guess the OP just wants something different.... i've had one of those HSS strat's myself... even a USA model... and it was ok, but the bucker is a bit anti-strat in my mind.

anyway.. had the strat model debate many times over... and you either love it or not...

[lasvideo]

Im surprised that someone who has owned a Strat and knows what it sounds like can be satisfied with the Variax tones.

 

Performing a cover of a SRV song on the Variax  just aint the same to me.   :)

 

YMMV

 

(The humbucker just adds to the Strats versatility of tone generation IMHO)

[TheRealZap]

well the bucker changes the bridge tone, because it's not angled like the single coil...

just made that position not the same for me... also didn't add up the same for me with bridge/middle either.

I have 2 strats currently, and prefer the variax... far surpasses the versatility of any strat bucker or no! haha :)

 

Im surprised that someone who has owned a Strat and knows what it sounds like can be satisfied with the Variax tones.

 

Performing a cover of a SRV song on the Variax  just aint the same to me.   :)

 

YMMV

 

(The humbucker just adds to the Strats versatility of tone generation IMHO)

[clay-man]

I really don't get what's lacking in the new Strats. Each strat isn't going sound exactly the same, and a lot of the Variax models use more vintage guitars than modern guitars I believe.

[guilhordas]

Try marsonite body on strat, much better

[clay-man]

Ok, so looking at videos, this is my opinion:

 

 

The beginning of this video shows old firmware vs JTV 69 pickups

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_O6v3_guDSk

 

 

This has new firmware vs JTV 69 pickups

http://youtu.be/PIaYGYtJW5g?t=1m40s

 

 

Old firmware sounds very muffles, but the tone doesn't seem too different underneath.

 

New firmware has more clarity in the high ends. The tone is mildly different though. It sounds like a Strat.

 

 

I can get why people complain about it, it can be alienating after using the old spank models. I don't think it's bad though. Perhaps they could of used a different strat to model after? Something that's more closer to the generic Strat sound.

 

Both have their advantages over another. If I have a JTV I could probably live with the strat model. If you guys are extremely concerned, the only thing I can suggest is to ask Line 6 to try to add another Strat model, maybe that maple neck model? 

 

If there's enough room in the flash memory, then surely it's time to start asking for some more guitars on the roster. SG, Jaguar, Jazzmaster, Lace Sensor pickups, EMG/Active pickups. Cmon, it would be lovely.

[lasvideo]

I think the Variax is great for many things. But I wont rationalize away its limitation just cause its " my baby".

 

Plain and simple, doing a cover of SRV with the Variax doesnt cut it FOR ME.

 

So Im getting a guitar that will do the job when I need that particular sound.

 

It does great with most of the rest of the tones.

[phil_m]

Im surprised that someone who has owned a Strat and knows what it sounds like can be satisfied with the Variax tones.

 

Performing a cover of a SRV song on the Variax  just aint the same to me.   :)

 

YMMV

 

Well, I'm surprised someone who owns a Strat would say such a thing... ;)

 

Seriously, I have owned quite a few over the years, and still do own a few, and I don't find anything wrong with the 2.0 Spank models. I like them a lot, actually. I've actually done an A/B test with the Spank model with a real Strat - a 2012 American Standard, to be exact - and I thought they sounded very, very similar. When I put the samples up here for people to guess which was the real Strat, more people guessed incorrectly than got it right. That to me is that point of the modeling.

 

I also would say that I don't know that SRV is the benchmark for sounding like a real Strat. There's plenty of people with real Strats who can't get their guitars to sound like him. He had such a monstrous tone, it's not necessarily something that's easily copied. I'm not saying that JTV can't get you there. It should be able to through tweaking the guitar and amp, etc. But it just seems to me that so much of SRV's tone is attributed to the fact that, well, SRV was the one playing.

[lasvideo]

 But it just seems to me that so much of SRV's tone is attributed to the fact that, well, SRV was the one playing.

Excellent point. But today I went to GC with my Variax and played them both thru the same amp. I hear a world of difference. In my case, that is the bottom line. :)

[clay-man]

Well, I'm surprised someone who owns a Strat would say such a thing... ;)

 

Seriously, I have owned quite a few over the years, and still do own a few, and I don't find anything wrong with the 2.0 Spank models. I like them a lot, actually. I've actually done an A/B test with the Spank model with a real Strat - a 2012 American Standard, to be exact - and I thought they sounded very, very similar. When I put the samples up here for people to guess which was the real Strat, more people guessed incorrectly than got it right. That to me is that point of the modeling.

 

I also would say that I don't know that SRV is the benchmark for sounding like a real Strat. There's plenty of people with real Strats who can't get their guitars to sound like him. He had such a monstrous tone, it's not necessarily something that's easily copied. I'm not saying that JTV can't get you there. It should be able to through tweaking the guitar and amp, etc. But it just seems to me that so much of SRV's tone is attributed to the fact that, well, SRV was the one playing.

 

Oh thank you, I was trying to find that again. It's a great example. Your recordings are definitely enough quack for me, so I'm not sure what the frustration is. Maybe some people have modeling errors on their Variax?

[lasvideo]

Oh thank you, I was trying to find that again. It's a great example. Your recordings are definitely enough quack for me, so I'm not sure what the frustration is. Maybe some people have modeling errors on their Variax?

Or maybe some folks have heard a live comparison under controlled conditions and are better able to discern the marked difference  ;-)

 

Im glad you are happy with the limited modeling of the strat. I am not. 

 

Moving on.  :)

[sulkbooth]

Well, I'm surprised someone who owns a Strat would say such a thing... ;)

 

Seriously, I have owned quite a few over the years, and still do own a few, and I don't find anything wrong with the 2.0 Spank models. I like them a lot, actually. I've actually done an A/B test with the Spank model with a real Strat - a 2012 American Standard, to be exact - and I thought they sounded very, very similar. When I put the samples up here for people to guess which was the real Strat, more people guessed incorrectly than got it right. That to me is that point of the modeling.

 

I also would say that I don't know that SRV is the benchmark for sounding like a real Strat. There's plenty of people with real Strats who can't get their guitars to sound like him. He had such a monstrous tone, it's not necessarily something that's easily copied. I'm not saying that JTV can't get you there. It should be able to through tweaking the guitar and amp, etc. But it just seems to me that so much of SRV's tone is attributed to the fact that, well, SRV was the one playing.

 

Another thing, a standard Strat does not sound like SRV either?  :D

 

AFAIK, SRV had Texas Special PU's and had minimum 0.13 to 0.58 gauge strings  :o

[lasvideo]

Very good point. But even this standard model that I tried...

 

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/StratAMRSSB2/snUS13100941

 

has more quack then the custom Strat files I downloaded from this forum. 

 

Not a problem anymore. A real Strat is winging its way to me. :)

[egkor]

NICE American Strat @lasvideo!

 

-Gary K

[lasvideo]

Thanks Gary!

 

Last Strat I owned was 45 years. It was a 1964 silver one that I traded for a new 1970 SG Deluxe.

[brue58ski]

^{I find the strat models to have too little output for my tastes and I agree with many, that the B & E strings aren't balanced with the rest of the strings.  The opinion of the strat models on the forum seems to be pretty much down the middle for various reasons. I can't find it, but there was a thread awhile ago that had some settings that helped me a lot.  I know it involved raising the overall level 5dB and then lowering the last 3 or 4 strings, depending on which pickup configuration, to compensate for the E, B and sometimes G volume difference.  And since the pickup level already seems low, SRV would be very hard to do with the model as it comes from the factory.  His pickups were much hotter (more windings I believe) than your average strat and I think the models are not only NOT hot but lower than your average strat.  So the levels would need to be significantly raised before you could get close to SRV.  The previously mentioned settings helped the strat models (imho) and I'm thinking raising them even higher would help with the SRV stuff. Something I haven't tried it yet, but will eventually.}

[lasvideo]

^{Something I haven't tried it yet, but will eventually.}

I look forward to hearing about your results.  :)

[davidb7170]

I also had to tweak my strat models to make them more useable. I have the 59 and the 69S, and due to my use of mostly the mags, I wanted the models to be about on the same footing level-wise with the mags, so I could use them fairly interchangeably.

 

Because of the inherent level differences between the 59's hum buckers (hotter) and the 69S's single coils I had to do them independently. On the 59, I lowered the Lester levels so they generally matched the mags, and raised the weaker output Spanks alot (and others) to get in the same ballpark with levels. I appreciate the attempt of the modelling concept to try to match vintage sounds & levels, but in practical use, they varied too much to switch between models without the levels (too much or too little) getting in the way. I had to do the same with the 69S's models, but to match the lower general level of it's all single coil pickups.

 

While I was at it, I messed with tone & volume pot values, and cap values in HD Workbench to either take out the harshness (roll off the thinness) or brighten up the sounds of the models to my liking. It seems changes in these make more difference than I remember when trying it before. If I want the tame the harshness, I lower the tone pot value. If I lower both volume & tone pots to the same value, it doesn't seem to change the tone, but changing one relative to another does make a difference. , I've not explored the effect of the cap values as much, yet.

 

This is all subjective, of course, but I came up with very decent, very useful Tele, Strat, Les, etc. tones. Because of the 59 & 69S mag level difference, I have 2 nearly identical Set Lists -- each tweaked for the relative levels of the 2 different JTV's mags and their associated models. I use both at gigs and switch between the guitars and Set Lists when I change guitars between sets or if I break a string during a set -- I've never (knock wood) had to switch due to string breakage in the time I've had the JTV's.

 

The ability to adjust the models while plugged into the VDI of the 500X is a long-awaited vast improvement, as using the USB interface was difficult, because (for me anyway) the model versus mag levels are not the same using the 1/4" analog output, and it's interaction with the HD500X's Guitar In jack as with the VDI on my 2 JTV's.

 

I also adjusted the model patches' relative string signal levels as needed and it offered quite a bit of balancing out of weak strings versus strong strings and helped with bass or treble heavy tonality -- some I think is due to the piezo signal variances. I was able to reduce the "plinkiness" of some models by lowering string levels as well. I'm still not a 100% there, but feel better about the overall tonality of the models I've messed with, and will keep at it... I do pick with some force and notice this also accentuates that issue, so I try to lighten up my pick attack, but often fall into old habits.

 

I'm using the latest HD500 & 500X firmware, and the latest with the the 2 JTV's, and the latest revised HD Workbench. My "sign" that I was getting better tone was a few times in the process of tweaking when I thought I had the mags on, only to see the model light was lit.... That was new for me.

 

Dave

[lasvideo]

 

 

This is all subjective, of course, but I came up with very decent, very useful Tele, Strat, Les, etc. tones. Because of the 59 & 69S mag level difference,

I'm using the latest HD500 & 500X firmware, and the latest with the the 2 JTV's, and the latest revised HD Workbench. My "sign" that I was getting better tone was a few times in the process of tweaking when I thought I had the mags on, only to see the model light was lit.... That was new for me.

 

Dave

 

 

Id love the hear how your Strat file sounds on my 59 if you are comfortable sharing it here as a download.

[davidb7170]

I will try to attach.... Ok, The system did not allow the attachment on a ".bnk" file, so I changed the extension to ".txt" and it apparently allowed it. I don't know if if it buggered anything, but save it, change the extension from TXT to bnk and see if it's useable... I hope so...

 

Anyway, it's my first attempt, but I was happy to get much closer than before.

 

Good luck, and let us know if it worked.

 

Dave

 

 

 

 

 

Spank DWB on 59 2014 05 04bnk.txt

[davidb7170]

I just tried doing the download, changing the extension, and loaded it into my workbench and WB took it (not connected to my 59, but offline). So that worked for me. Didn't know if it would, but seemed to. I noticed I messed with the string levels on the bridge position, but not the other positions, but did mess with the pots, pickup output levels and patch levels to bring it up in volume.

 

I remember messing with the patch string levels more on my 69S.

 

Dave

[brue58ski]

So there is a guy by the name of Jake Cloudchair. Does some amazing things using only Line 6 equipment. Check him out on Youtube if you haven't seen him before.  His sounds are very impressive. POD & Variax only straight to PA.  He has a Youtube where he's using a Variax 500 to demonstrate many of the amps in the HD500. I couldn't get the link pasted for some reason but just type in Variax HD500 in Youtube search. It is called POD HD500 & Variax demo - 16 clean & crunch tones. He has all of the patches in that video on Customtone. Search for Cloudchair. 

 

So here it is; I am absolutely not getting the same level of output from my JTV as he is from his Variax 500 (the old Variax).  I downloaded his patches and, using the same JTV model as he did with the Variax 500, compared my sound to the video's sound and the JTV's outputs are significantly lower than the Variax 500.  In the case of the Strat or Tele for example, I not only had to raise the preset volume in Workbench all the way (6dB), I also haed to raise the pickup output to push the amp as much as his Variax 500 dide.  It is very obvious.  He has many of the amp settings in the video, so it's not about the patches in Customtone being different than in the video. And, his patches use the Factory models of the Variax 500 so it's not about changing the models.  You can see them in the patches.  Therfore, the old Variax puts out a stronger level period.  The JTV's model outputs may be more accurate but then that would mean the Variax 500's models were significantly wrong level wise.  I'm assuming if you roll back the JTV to the old models, they also would have the same stronger level as the Variax 500.  The flavor of the models is still there but level wise, there is a major issue.

 

Bottom line.  The old Variax 500 models have a significantly higher level of output than the new JTV models.  Which level is more accurate, I don't know.  But the difference is definitely there. I personally think the JTV model levels need to be increased in the firmware so I wouldn't have to raise them so much in Workbench.  When you have to raise the preset level all the way and still need to raise the pickup output level, there's something wrong somewhere I think.

[lasvideo]

WOOOHOOO!

The Fender American Standard Stratocaster - Sienna Sunburst arrived this morning!

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/StratAMRSSB2

This is one sweet axe. Ballsy pickups. Fast neck. Beautiful finish. Even came with the authentic black square case.

Having just learned SRVs "Cant stand the weather", its a real treat playing it on this baby.It has the exactly the tone I was looking for. And with the Kemper providing the amp/bcab profile thats similar to what he used is a real bonus.

Im glad my dissatisfaction with the Variaxs version of the Strat motivated me to get the real thing. The clarity and spank is just what I had hoped for. 

[clay-man]

Congrats I suppose. Sorry you can't work with the Variax. I suggest still messing with workbench. Do remember you can never really nail a tone exactly. There's too much variables when it comes to that. You can get close, that's what the Variax is there for, but remember, not every guitar is the same, even people with Variaxes sometimes note differences because of physical variables that come into play, even when their guitar is set up properly.

[ricstudioc]

Late to the party here, but in reading this thread I'm curious (to the OP) - it seems that definitive Strat sound was your goal, certainly that's the point of this entire thread.  So why would you buy a multi-instrument-modeling guitar in the first place?  Honestly curious - and I congratulate you on your recent acquisition, sounds like you're reaching the tonal nirvana you seek.

 

I didn't purchase my JTV with the assumption that I'd be getting actual '63 strats, or a real Martins, or an honest Deering banjo - I (correctly) assumed that I'd be getting "pretty damn close" profiles of the various instruments, and a flexible sonic arsenal of tones that I otherwise would not have.   And - for me - it's working out quite well on those fronts.

 

Why wouldn't you have simply purchased a real Strat in the first place?  Are you planning to use the Variax for other purposes?  Like I say, honestly curious - this thought started in on me the moment I started reading the thread......

[lasvideo]

 

Why wouldn't you have simply purchased a real Strat in the first place?  Are you planning to use the Variax for other purposes?  Like I say, honestly curious - this thought started in on me the moment I started reading the thread......

I must admit when I bought the Variax I had what turned out to be unrealistic expectations for the Strat tones. I stiil love the rest of what the Variax has to offer and will give it as much use and attention as my Jackson Soloist and Strat. Its only thru use and exploring over time that I realized it wasnt going to get me to where I wanted to be with the Strat. But as I said, I still feel the rest of the models are quite strong . 

[ricstudioc]

I must admit when I bought the Variax I had what turned out to be unrealistic expectations for the Strat tones. I stiil love the rest of what the Variax has to offer and will give it as much use and attention as my Jackson Soloist and Strat. Its only thru use and exploring over time that I realized it wasnt going to get me to where I wanted to be with the Strat. But as I said, I still feeling the rest of the models are quite strong

Cool - nice to know you'll still be using the Variax.  Hey, I love what it can do and appreciate it's flexibilty - but my go-to axe is, and always will be, my Steinberger GM Pro.  The Variax is seeing good use, but when it's "grab a git and play" the GM is my baby.....

 

Enjoy the Strat - cluck away....!

[lasvideo]

Cool - nice to know you'll still be using the Variax.  Hey, I love what it can do and appreciate it's flexibilty - but my go-to axe is, and always will be, my Steinberger GM Pro.  The Variax is seeing good use, but when it's "grab a git and play" the GM is my baby.....

 

Enjoy the Strat - cluck away....!

LOL! Chickens cluck. Strats QUACK!  :)

[Charlie_Watt]

Nice Videos.  My 500 and JTV don't sound like that - must be something about my lack of talent!

[brue58ski]

I've never played any of the older Variax guitars, so I cannot attest to which ones may have hotter outputs, but the one thing that I do know is that you're forgetting the biggest variable of all. The Player...You can dial in every parameter that he's got in that video, and your tone still won't be identicle, even with the same guitar...it's an impossible quest.

 

 You are WAY off base here. Of course the "it's the player" is a classic cliche that's been around for a very long time. Without getting into the merits, or lack thereof, of that statement, what I was doing has nothing to do with the player. It has to do with one guitar hitting the amp with a stronger signal than the other.  Have you ever been in a situation where you hear a Les Paul with PAF or similar humbuckers going through an amp and getting a decent crunch. You then plug in a Strat and find the crunch distortion isn't as strong as with the Les Paul. Let another player do it and you wind up with the same thing.  Let two different guitar players do it and you'll still hear the difference.  We're not talking about the subtle differences of a performance, nor about getting an "identical" tone. We're only talking about how hard the guitar's signal hits the amp, thereby creating a certain amount of distortion. I thought I made that obvious in my post. The Variax 500's models hit the amp harder than the JTV. It's VERY obvious. Just try it yourself. I mentioned that particular thing in my post.  I also mentioned how the "flavor" of the model was still there but the level's are different. Another indicator that I'm not talking about getting an identical tone. The only other way to convince you would be for you to do the comparison yourself.  If you have an HD500 and a JTV try it yourself. the differences are WAY too large to be able to atribute them to "the player".  You may want to read posts more carefully before you start tossing old & tired cliches about.  And let's just say I disagree with your "most important variable is the player" statement. It's a variable and a big one.  But if you give two guys with very different styles the same Gibson Byrdland and Bassman amp, the notes and subtle technique differences will be different. But it'll still sound like a Byrdland through a Bassman amp.

[brue58ski]

So sorry to have offended your delicate sensibilities. If I misinterpreted your post, so be it...but by all means feel free to overreact and lash out. Rest assured though, I am appropriately ashamed. And I'll make sure to read much more carefully from now on. I hope that putting me in my place made you feel better....and with an audience too, oh what a triumph for you. That and tweleve bucks will get you into the movies. Happy trails.

Best thing about this site is the 'ignore' feature...         
 

 

Offended? Overreacted? Lashed out? Sounds like you're the one with delicate sensibilities. I did think you were off base. You seemed to dismiss my findings with an old cliche that had nothing to do with my findings. So I corrected you BUT, and I do mean this when I say I'm sorry if I came off a bit strong. Wasn't intending to shame anyone. Just was pretty puzzled that you said what you said and wanted to be clear as to why I thought your conclusion was wrong. So let me apologize for my strong wording and hope to move on. As I reread my post I guess my "you may want to read posts more carefully..."statement was a bit snippy, so I do particularly apologize for that. But I think the rest was just informational and corrective.

[lasvideo]

As the Original Poster for this thread, I think my issue has been resolved.

[juicyjones]

When I put the samples up here for people to guess which was the real Strat, more people guessed incorrectly than got it right. That to me is that point of the modeling.

 

That is the whole point, IMO. I've seen this a million times. Most actual guitar players can't tell the difference in A/B tests of recording of a lot of things they claim are holy and sacrosanct and simulations of the same.

[lasvideo]

And some guitarist must be tone deaf. I sit here with both guitars and anyone with good hearing can hear the difference. Come on over and take a listen  :)

[clay-man]

Like I said, because all strats are the same? No. The Variax nails the general Strat sound as I'm concerned. 

[lasvideo]

If that makes you feel better, thats fine.

 

As far as Im concerned its close but no cigar. :)

[clay-man]

If that makes you feel better, thats fine.

 

As far as Im concerned its close but no cigar. :)

 

With Phil's clips I'm convinced. Even with that, the Mesquite body adds more quack anyways from what I've heard. Plenty of Strat sound for me. Maybe not for every strat sound, but it's there, and besides, that's what Workbench is for.

 

I didn't like how the Tele wasn't as twangy as I wanted and that it sounded a bit too close to the strat, so I backed up the pickups towards the bridge. Sounds great now.