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jtv alt tuning warble (with audio example)

warble jtv69 alt tunings

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#1 fr0sty

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Posted 12 June 2014 - 05:09 PM

Ok, this has been bugging me for a while.  I finally got around to recording the warble noise I hear on my jtv 69 when using alt tunings.  This example was recorded direct, with no speakers on during the recording.  I have the current version firmware version installed on my jtv.  I start out with no modeling, using pickup setting 2.  From there I turn on the modeling (spank, standard tuning) and scroll through the various tuning modes (drop d, 1/2 step, drop d flat, one step down and baritone).

 

I have tried dampening the strings behind the nut as well as dampening the trem spring. The warble remains.  The guitar is tuned to standard using 10 gauge strings. The trem is not floating.  I think the warble/pulse is clear to hear.

 

Let me know if you hear it to.  


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#2 fr0sty

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Posted 12 June 2014 - 05:12 PM

Now with the audio file

Attached Files


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#3 jefflynyrd

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Posted 12 June 2014 - 05:54 PM

That's the sound I hear and when its an acoustic 12 strings its soooo bad.... unusable feature for me....


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#4 clay-man

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Posted 12 June 2014 - 10:05 PM

Is this HD firmware? You're think they'd fix that by now. I thought they made the pitch shifting better.

 

Edit: Listening to your example, I don't think it's bad at all. When you say warble I thought you meant really bad warble. It's kind of something you have to accept with pitch shifting.


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#5 snhirsch

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Posted 13 June 2014 - 03:23 AM

All I hear is a tiny hint of splcing artifacts.  As clay-man points out, this is unavoidable. 


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#6 phil_m

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Posted 13 June 2014 - 05:10 AM

Let me know if you hear it to.

 

I don't really hear anything... I'm just listening through my computer speakers, not headphones. Nothing is popping out as that bad to me.


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#7 Charlie_Watt

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Posted 13 June 2014 - 05:14 AM

I have found that sometimes I like the 12 string models and sometimes I think they sound strange.  IMO they are not quite right.  Never have been.


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#8 phil_m

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Posted 13 June 2014 - 05:56 AM

I have found that sometimes I like the 12 string models and sometimes I think they sound strange.  IMO they are not quite right.  Never have been.

 

They require a light touch, that's for sure. I don't use them all that often, but they have come in handy on occasion. My band was in the studio last year, and we had a song where we thought a 12-string part would work well, so I pulled up the Ric 12-string, and recorded it, and I thought it ended sounding great. I was actually kind of surprised with how well it turned out, to be honest.


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"It is not our duty to understand the arbitrary, meaningless dictates of machines"

- Don Norman in The Design of Everyday Things


#9 fr0sty

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Posted 13 June 2014 - 07:41 AM

Thank you all for taking to time to listen and reply. To me, the problem is most noticeable on the 1/2 down example.  There is a noticeable pulsing, similar to the sound you heard when tuning using harmonics.  

 

I normally use 9's on my guitars, but thought I would try 10's since that's what line 6 ships the jtv's with.  When I did that, I now notice the noise on the 5th and 6th strings. I only heard it on the low E prior.  I plan on trying 8's to see if that makes any difference.


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#10 clay-man

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Posted 13 June 2014 - 10:23 PM

That warble is nothing. 

 

The only question I have is is the warble when doing hammer ons and pull offs on the high frets still so bad that it plays a different note than you're playing still?

 

This is a problem I have on my Variax, did they fix that in the HD firmware? I really need an answer for this please.


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#11 parismatt

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Posted 18 October 2014 - 06:52 AM

I have the same problem with my brand new JTV-59. This is NOT the resonant sound, this is the alt tuning system simply not working.

 

My previous guitar was a Variax 700 and the alt tunings worked perfectly. No warble. I've got used to using alt tunings when playing on stage so it's a feature I really make the most of and expected to work.

 

I bought the JTV thinking... 'the modelling was so good in 2004 that it must be AMAZING ten years later'... so I was rather disappointed to discover it is not only worse but it's completely unusable. I'm gutted.

 

I guess I'll have to try and send it back unless my the support ticket I raised results in a solution.

 

Sigh.


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#12 leemh

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Posted 30 June 2016 - 08:32 PM

exactly the same problem with me.

especially from 00:21~ of your mp3 sample.

 

my problem sample in here 

http://line6.com/sup...e-sounds-weird/

 

 

Did you fix that warbling????


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#13 fr0sty

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Posted 01 September 2016 - 12:34 PM

Sorry, I just saw this. No, I never found a way to fix it.


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#14 clay-man

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Posted 01 September 2016 - 10:15 PM

Like I said, this isn't really warbling, and more of pitch shifting artifacts. You're not going to fix it because that's how it's supposed to sound.

It's most likely the pitch shifting block not having the best blurring method ever which creates this really subtle background effect on the strings.

 

You either have to live with it or hate your guitar.

 

 

This is warble:

 

If you listen to the beginning part, there's a pitch shifter 1 octave above the original note, and whatever pitch shifter is being used makes warbling noises when playing more than 1 note. That's warble.


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#15 elynen

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Posted 14 October 2016 - 06:29 AM

Hi,
I just bought a JTV-59. It's an amazing guitar but I'm also having that warble, spring-like sound
happening when playing individual notes in open tuning. I hear the A string in "Blues G" tuning "boing"
when played. I recorded it direct last night and it prints in the recording for sure. I've re-flashed the memory down to 1.7 and back up step by step checking song the way to 2.21 but that didn't work. Has Line 6 or anyone found a solution? Please let me know.

Thanks,
Erick
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#16 cruisinon2

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Posted 14 October 2016 - 07:21 AM

Hi,
I just bought a JTV-59. It's an amazing guitar but I'm also having that warble, spring-like sound
happening when playing individual notes in open tuning. I hear the A string in "Blues G" tuning "boing"
when played. I recorded it direct last night and it prints in the recording for sure. I've re-flashed the memory down to 1.7 and back up step by step checking song the way to 2.21 but that didn't work. Has Line 6 or anyone found a solution? Please let me know.

Thanks,
Erick


The powers that be like to blame the proximity of the mag pickups for the warbling...personally I remain skeptical, but I suppose you have nothing to lose by lowering the pickup height a bit. And no, nobody will divulge the "official" optimal pickup height...it's a closely guarded state secret, and L6 steadfastly refuses to give the specs. Apparently access to such info will curve your spine...

Check your intonation, too. If that's way off the mark, it can cause problems.
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#17 elynen

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Posted 14 October 2016 - 07:45 AM

Hi Guru,
Thanks for your response. I lowered the pickups to "zero" and still no good. Intonation is spot on. I opened a support ticket because I don't want to give up on the guitar. Here's hoping for a solution...

Thanks again,
Erick
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#18 cruisinon2

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Posted 14 October 2016 - 09:26 AM

Hi Guru,
Thanks for your response. I lowered the pickups to "zero" and still no good. Intonation is spot on. I opened a support ticket because I don't want to give up on the guitar. Here's hoping for a solution...

Thanks again,
Erick


Like I said, I never really bought that explanation anyway...
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#19 psarkissian

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Posted 14 October 2016 - 09:37 AM

Two reasons for "warbling",...

--- Pick-ups are not at correct distance from the strings, allowing the pick-up

magnets to pull on the strings while it's vibrating. More apparent in Alt Tune.

 

--- Dual tone effect, when you hear the standard tune string acoustically and

the Alt Tuned electronic signal, both simultaneously.

 

The mp3 sounds more like pick-up magnets pulling, in the case.


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#20 patgiff

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Posted 26 October 2016 - 03:05 AM

Now with the audio file

Now I know my hearing is going down the drain. 


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#21 brue58ski

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Posted 26 October 2016 - 05:19 AM

Two reasons for "warbling",...

--- Pick-ups are not at correct distance from the strings, allowing the pick-up

magnets to pull on the strings while it's vibrating. More apparent in Alt Tune.

 

--- Dual tone effect, when you hear the standard tune string acoustically and

the Alt Tuned electronic signal, both simultaneously.

 

The mp3 sounds more like pick-up magnets pulling, in the case.

 

What would the correct pickup/string distance be for each JTV model or where can I go to get that info.


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#22 cruisinon2

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Posted 26 October 2016 - 05:32 AM

What would the correct pickup/string distance be for each JTV model or where can I go to get that info.


Lmao! Good luck. Ask for a foot rub while you're at it...

They've been steadfastly refusing to divulge those very specs for years because we mere mortals can't possibly be trusted make the adjustments correctly (do I use the pointy end of the screwdriver, or just bash at it with the big red plastic part? ;) )...

Allegedly, "too many guitars were ending up on his bench" when the specs were publicly available.
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#23 psarkissian

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Posted 26 October 2016 - 08:33 AM

For a JTV69,... 3mm on the Low-E side, 2mm on the Hi-E side.

You may still need to listen to it and dial it in. Assuming you're using the stock pick-ups.

 

Custom pick-ups is trial-and-error. Custom pick-ups,... give me the bulk resistance spec,

and I can make an educated guess.


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#24 brue58ski

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Posted 26 October 2016 - 09:57 AM

For a JTV69,... 3mm on the Low-E side, 2mm on the Hi-E side.

You may still need to listen to it and dial it in. Assuming you're using the stock pick-ups.

 

Custom pick-ups is trial-and-error. Custom pick-ups,... give me the bulk resistance spec,

and I can make an educated guess.

 

Is it the same for a JTV-89F with stock pickups?


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#25 psarkissian

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Posted 26 October 2016 - 10:23 AM

Pretty much. I start there and dial-in as it needs.

JTV-59 is slight different.


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#26 brue58ski

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Posted 26 October 2016 - 12:40 PM

Thank you VERY MUCH for the info.


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#27 Smashcraaft

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Posted 10 April 2017 - 11:01 AM

Pretty much. I start there and dial-in as it needs.
JTV-59 is slight different.

Do you start higher or lower on a JTV-59
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#28 psarkissian

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Posted 10 April 2017 - 11:14 AM

I start from the spec point, then go higher or lower according to the neck relief,

string action and the climate to which the guitar is going to.

 

Probably don't want to go lower. Fret the highest note, then measure the distance

from pick-up to string, and adjust to the spec points from there.

 

If you've retro-fitted other pick-ups, then it will be trial-n-error, since not all pick-ups

have the same specs.


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#29 eenymason

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Posted 10 April 2017 - 01:32 PM

For a JTV69,... 3mm on the Low-E side, 2mm on the Hi-E side.

You may still need to listen to it and dial it in. Assuming you're using the stock pick-ups.

 

Custom pick-ups is trial-and-error. Custom pick-ups,... give me the bulk resistance spec,

and I can make an educated guess.

I enquired at Kinman regarding the oft-still used "resistance as output measurement," and I could feel the smirk behind the very informative explanation denouncing it. It's evidently got less to do with "output", than people would have us believe. Kinman doesn't even use resistance measurements in the public domain, as it's a furphy, particularly when you're talking about pickups that are not made in the "conventional" way. Well maybe Kinmans are still "conventional", compared to piezos into a PCB, and digital modelling, but their construction is certainly far enough away from a simple wire wrapped around a magnet, that meaurements such as these are useless...

Further to these, it's worth noting that Kinmans use magnets with far less "pull", and would be well worth investigating in JTVs, and Standards IMHO.

 

Here's a relevant extract from the reply email from Kinman:

 

"So I am very surprised that any manufacturer who know these things would issue advice that talks about suitability of resistance for their product, it's complete non-sense.  I think what they are probably driving at is the actual output in millivolts, which indicates the amplitude or strength of the signal in RMS terms.  A more general indication of output in mv is a simple loudness comparison.  I suspect they are trying to tell you that their electronics don't like high output pickups (excessive number of milivolts, nothing or very little to do with Ohms.

So applying that to Kinman's I'd say to play it safe steer away from the Big-Nine-O, Woodstock and Hendrix sets and the SRV set and the individual pickups that comprise those sets."

 

For the record, I'm sharing this info to illuminate, not to ruffle anyone's feathers... ;)


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#30 psarkissian

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Posted 10 April 2017 - 02:16 PM

Resistance here has more to do with impedance matching, since Variax uses

active circuitry. If it were a guitar with passive electronics, then I'd say mix and

match to your hearts content. I do, but with passive electronics guitars. 

 

Or I do some impedance matching calculations when dealing with active circuits,

like I had to do with Oz Noys' custom 89F. With an active circuit, there is some

impedance matching to do, or you run the risk of audio artifacts.

 

If the Kinmans have less magnetic pull, then you would have a bit more leeway

margin to adjust with when finding that pick-up height adjust point and still avoid warbling.

 

Just be aware that you're connecting into with an active circuit, can't treat it like a passive circuit.

 

Happy hunting.


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#31 psarkissian

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Posted 10 April 2017 - 02:19 PM

Bulk resistance is also good to know for selecting resistor and capacitor component values

for the tone control range you're trying to get. Something else to bear in mind. Enjoy.


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#32 Guitarkyller

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Posted 10 April 2017 - 04:34 PM

I start from the spec point, then go higher or lower according to the neck relief,

string action and the climate to which the guitar is going to.

 

Probably don't want to go lower. Fret the highest note, then measure the distance

from pick-up to string, and adjust to the spec points from there.

 

 

 

 The 59...it's spec point is ???        The Humburgler says................?

 

You said it's different than the 69's 3mm lo-2mm hi

 

I don't know about anybody else, but I've been waiting over 5 years to hear this !

 

 WOOOPEEE !!!

 

 

 

 

and we're back to no answer again.....................................................................................................................? makes no sense


Edited by Guitarkyller, 11 April 2017 - 06:49 PM.

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