Jump to content


Photo

Help, Just Don't Know What To Get.


  • Please log in to reply
26 replies to this topic

#1 SpiritSeeker

SpiritSeeker

    Just Startin'

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 7 posts

Posted 05 June 2013 - 07:34 AM

I am extremely confused, but that is another story. :)

 

I have been playing guitar for 30 years (since I was a wee tot). I am looking for a modeling amp and speaker(s) for my studio and playing with friends. There are lots of options out there but I just don't know the real scoop vs. the hype.

 

I love Line 6 products but everyone is talking Kemper and Fractal.

 

Is the Line 6 Pro HD that inferior?

 

I am thinking about buying a Stage Source L3t and a Modeler. I play an Anderson Classic Strat and a Martin 000 acoustic. I realize that this is the Line 6 forum, but what do you guys think about the options open to me? I guess I can buy a Kemper and L3t but for 3x the price, is is really that different from the Kemper? I won't be profiling any existing amps/cabs, but will need profiles/rigs.

 

I won't be playing with Larry Carlton, Keith Urban or Brad Paisley.

 

Thanks

Bill


  • 0

#2 TheRealZap

TheRealZap

    Uber Guru

  • Line 6 Expert
  • 14805 posts
  • LocationClemmons, NC USA

Posted 05 June 2013 - 08:03 AM

Neither of those options are 3x better than the HD.... although they clearly should be better given the price difference! it's subjective... and you'll never find owners of those other devices who say "the HD was better and i'm just a sucker"

basically... they will all say they have the better deal... to justify their purchase... and it may well suit their needs better... 

I personally think that your needs and your desire to use the L3 speakers... the HD would be better for you...

but i can't deny that those other units probably have benefits as well... 

my advice... please yourself.. listen to them, and if you see\hear something you like and can justify the cost go for it.


  • 0

#3 silverhead

silverhead

    Uber Guru

  • Line 6 Expert
  • 11094 posts
  • LocationOttawa, Ontario, Canada

Posted 05 June 2013 - 08:08 AM

Your questions are excellent, and very practical.

 

Great debates break out periodically in this forum on the very questions you raise. In my opinion, it boils down to this: the Pod HD product line provides a very cost-effective alternative to Kemper and Fractal. You didn't mention Eleven Rack but that is another comparable. In terms of modeling quality, range of amps, detailed features and flexibility I personally think (and would expect based purely on price, not from personal experience) that both Fractal and Kemper provide superior sound quality. Is it worth the (significant!) extra $$? That's where strong differences of opinion exist. For me, the answer is that neither you nor (and especially) the listening audience could tell the difference for your purposes - jamming with friends and doing some casual personal recording, even producing great-sounding CDs in your studio. I have the Pod HD and couldn't be happier with my sound for my purposes - which are very much like yours.

 

I also have the L3t speaker(s) and the sound form those babies with the HD in Studio mode is fantastic for me. I wouldn't go to anything else in the Pod HD / Stagescape price range. Would my sound improve with Fractal or Kemper? Probably, to a small degree that I don't think is worth the extra $$.

 

I'm sure other opinions will be offered to this.... they usually are. :D


  • 0

Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans.
.... John Lennon

 

 


#4 litesnsirens

litesnsirens

    Gear Head

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 881 posts

Posted 05 June 2013 - 10:46 AM

There are some guys who have bought Fractal and then taken it back and gotten some sort of HD.  Not because the HD was better but because it was good enough and the extra $1500++ felt good in their pockets...


  • 0

#5 antonioctd

antonioctd

    Iknowathingortwo

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 103 posts

Posted 05 June 2013 - 11:04 AM

Regarding my guitar tone I never, ever, go "good enough"!

 

Therefore I'll never go the digital modeling root!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Feels good trolling about this in a line6 forum   B)


  • 0

#6 litesnsirens

litesnsirens

    Gear Head

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 881 posts

Posted 05 June 2013 - 12:31 PM

Fair enough but sometimes some peoples "good enough" tones are better than other people's "I won't settle for less than the best tones".  In fact I have been playing for 40 years, probably 35 of those through tube amps.  Dabbled in the modelling years ago and went back to tube amps.  Now... Modelling all the way, better tones through my current setup than I've ever had through tubes.  I was pretty hard set on the tube amp thing for a long time but I've opened my mind and have never been happier.  Crazy flexibility from song to song is just a bonus....


  • 0

#7 antonioctd

antonioctd

    Iknowathingortwo

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 103 posts

Posted 05 June 2013 - 02:50 PM

Fair enough but sometimes some peoples "good enough" tones are better than other people's "I won't settle for less than the best tones".  In fact I have been playing for 40 years, probably 35 of those through tube amps.  Dabbled in the modelling years ago and went back to tube amps.  Now... Modelling all the way, better tones through my current setup than I've ever had through tubes.  I was pretty hard set on the tube amp thing for a long time but I've opened my mind and have never been happier.  Crazy flexibility from song to song is just a bonus....

 

This is the part about modeling that drives me away! 

 

Don't get me wrong, this is art and it's all  personal opinion and taste.

 

They advertise "A gazillion amps for a fraction of the price" but shouldn't be our goal to have "our tone"? Just one? 

 

 

I mean, I play in a Soul/Funk/Rn'B covers band, an Iron Maiden Tribute and also played in a classic rock act until recently. 

I use a 2 channel amp! That's It! I use "my tone" to play every thing. 

 

The way I pursue tone is like this:

I have an imaginary guitar in my head that sounds a certain way.

Sure, a little more gain or cleaner for different songs, but the basic tone is the same.

I'm pursuing that tone to play every thing with it! And I'm 85% there by the way  B)

 

I had a POD XT some time ago and I ended up using only 2 models. One clean and one with gain. 

It was awful because ever PA was different  forcing me to tweak!

Then I decided that I needed to have my own reliable monitor, got a powered speaker. But that is the same troble to carry around as a real amp! LOL

 

So, If I use only one amp model why the hell would I buy a box full of copies? Just buy the real thing and of you go!

 

The other thing I have against digital guitar gear is that all the menus and options to tweak distract me form playing. I hate every thing that makes me spend more than a minute tweaking instead of playing.

 

That said I do have a M9 in the loop for time and modulation based effects. I think this unit is genius in the way that is laid out. It does not distract me from playing. I don't even have to press "save"! ;)

 

Do I think it sounds like the original pedals? Hell No! But I use the effects so low (parallel FX loop) that it sounds good enough for the job and it saves me from trouble with a lot of patch cables and big pedalboards, so it actually let's me focus more on playing than individual pedals  ;)


  • 0

#8 antonioctd

antonioctd

    Iknowathingortwo

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 103 posts

Posted 05 June 2013 - 02:59 PM

Sorry for making 2 post in a row but I have to clarify this... 

 

I'm not against digital technology for guitar!

 

If a company like Line6 would release a digital product without menus that aloud me to plug my guitar and always have my tone (the one inside my head) in a consistent and reliable way I would totally be for it!   

 

But an original! Not a copy. I go with the original ever time. I remember that the "insane" model on the POD XT, when used with super low gain was very nice. 

See, my favorite was an original  ;)

 

The M20d is an incredible original piece of gear! Amazing paradigm shift! I bough that! See what I mean? 


  • 0

#9 RonMarton

RonMarton

    Power User

  • Line 6 Expert
  • 1275 posts
  • LocationSydney, Australia.

Posted 05 June 2013 - 03:16 PM

(Is it just me, or is this forum really one of the greatest things about Line 6 ?)

 

My two cents' worth is that the "value for money" calculation always seems to be an intensely personal one ...and one that only YOUR ears can properly evaluate, Singmeister.

 

Half a century of professional experience in showbusiness audio has led me to now resolutely defend the absolute necessity for every artist to be (first and foremost) comfortable with whatever rig they're using, be it analog, digital or powered by teams of trained hamsters.

 

While that may have only served to make your decision harder, you may possibly gain some assistance from my next two observations:

  1. You'll be hard-pressed to find any other single cabinet to match the "future-proof" versatility, audio quality and sheer power of Line 6's L3t, at any price ...and
  2. I've seen countless "flavour of the month" tone and/or processing systems come and go over the years, but the Line 6 mob are definitely among those (surprisingly few) exceptional makers who seem unremittingly consistent in using the performers' "real world" needs as the absolute template for development of their products.    

  • 0

#10 litesnsirens

litesnsirens

    Gear Head

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 881 posts

Posted 05 June 2013 - 03:25 PM

@ antoniocd

 

 

You can look at it that way, and you won't get any arguments from me !!  But then again why should our goal be to have just one?  Who wrote that?  I don't think Moses had it on the tablets.  

 

I agree with you go for that sound in your head, but my train of thought is, you really don't have a choice.  Every tone you craft is coming from you.  I have a different patch for every single song I play in a night.  They all sound like me, they aren't drastically different some of them may by coincidence be almost identical but they come from my idea of what that song needs, and what I want to hear to inspire me to a good performance.  I find if the guitar sound is perfect for the song it gets me in the mood to play the hell out of the song.  

 

The truth is, I don't use that many of the models, but I use a lot of variations of the settings on the models I do use.  If I'm using the Marshall model I may have the gain on 3 for one song 5 for the next and 7 for another.  On the Fender same thing, whatever is good for the song.   I do have a bank of tones for just jamming basic bread and butter, clean, crunch, OD and a solo patch.  But for playing live I spend time getting the sound I want for a song that we are going to play.  And since I play a guitar synth (GR-55) that has modelled guitars and amps I include strings, organ piano and acoustic guitars and also alternate tunings without breaking a sweat.

 

I mean I'm going from Rockabilly to AC/DC to Rage Against the Machine and Creed and back to Steve Miller, Eagles etc.  I used to compromise and say OK this is my crunch setting, all the songs that need crunch get this sound, but some times it's too much sometimes not enough and for a few it was exactly right.  Probably on those songs I had in mind when I crafted it.  And the same thing would be true for heavier tones and clean tones although with the clean tones there isn't as much compromise especially given the pickup selector and tone knob on the guitar.

 

 

When you talk about tube amps (or even non-tube amps) if you are mic'ing for stage use, once you stick a mic in front of your amp and put it through the PA or that "different PA" that you were talking about, it isn't YOUR tone out front anymore anyway.  I go direct from my modeller to my mixer and send my self a monitor mix ....and I do my own sound. I craft my tones at home through my PA and test it at gig levels for final touches.  When I get to the gig, it's my sound, it's exactly what I created.  And I have found that if I just bring my stuff to a gig where there is a PA already in place I just bring one of my L2t's as a back line, direct out to the house PA and it still translates pretty well.  

 

These are just MY methods they aren't right or wrong, they just work for me.  I totally agree with your methods and ideas because they work for you and for a very long time I used them.  I just looked past what I was doing and took a chance to try some new things and wound up preferring it in the end, something that for many years I never thought would happen.  I'm never going to say I hate playing through a nice tube amp, but I don't think it's the only game in town anymore, I don't own one anymore, and at this stage if it was all I had I would find it very limiting compared to what I have gotten used to.


  • 1

#11 antonioctd

antonioctd

    Iknowathingortwo

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 103 posts

Posted 05 June 2013 - 03:43 PM

@ antoniocd

 

 

You can look at it that way, and you won't get any arguments from me !!  But then again why should our goal be to have just one?  Who wrote that?  I don't think Moses had it on the tablets.  

 

I agree with you go for that sound in your head, but my train of thought is, you really don't have a choice.  Every tone you craft is coming from you.  I have a different patch for every single song I play in a night.  They all sound like me, they aren't drastically different some of them may by coincidence be almost identical but they come from my idea of what that song needs, and what I want to hear to inspire me to a good performance.  I find if the guitar sound is perfect for the song it gets me in the mood to play the hell out of the song.  

 

The truth is, I don't use that many of the models, but I use a lot of variations of the settings on the models I do use.  If I'm using the Marshall model I may have the gain on 3 for one song 5 for the next and 7 for another.  On the Fender same thing, whatever is good for the song.   I do have a bank of tones for just jamming basic bread and butter, clean, crunch, OD and a solo patch.  But for playing live I spend time getting the sound I want for a song that we are going to play.  And since I play a guitar synth (GR-55) that has modelled guitars and amps I include strings, organ piano and acoustic guitars and also alternate tunings without breaking a sweat.

 

I mean I'm going from Rockabilly to AC/DC to Rage Against the Machine and Creed and back to Steve Miller, Eagles etc.  I used to compromise and say OK this is my crunch setting, all the songs that need crunch get this sound, but some times it's too much sometimes not enough and for a few it was exactly right.  Probably on those songs I had in mind when I crafted it.  And the same thing would be true for heavier tones and clean tones although with the clean tones there isn't as much compromise especially given the pickup selector and tone knob on the guitar.

 

 

When you talk about tube amps (or even non-tube amps) if you are mic'ing for stage use, once you stick a mic in front of your amp and put it through the PA or that "different PA" that you were talking about, it isn't YOUR tone out front anymore anyway.  I go direct from my modeller to my mixer and send my self a monitor mix ....and I do my own sound. I craft my tones at home through my PA and test it at gig levels for final touches.  When I get to the gig, it's my sound, it's exactly what I created.  And I have found that if I just bring my stuff to a gig where there is a PA already in place I just bring one of my L2t's as a back line, direct out to the house PA and it still translates pretty well.  

 

These are just MY methods they aren't right or wrong, they just work for me.  I totally agree with your methods and ideas because they work for you and for a very long time I used them.  I just looked past what I was doing and took a chance to try some new things and wound up preferring it in the end, something that for many years I never thought would happen.  I'm never going to say I hate playing through a nice tube amp, but I don't think it's the only game in town anymore, I don't own one anymore, and at this stage if it was all I had I would find it very limiting compared to what I have gotten used to.

 

Yah! Like I said It's art  :D  :D 

It's a very good thing we all do things differently and are different artists  ;)  

 

I feel compelled to just elaborate on 2 topics:

 

About the "same crunch setting for all songs with crunch", I use the tone and volume knobs a lot. I really can get a very wide pallet of flavors from my crunch tone just messing with the guitar's controls...

 

About the PA, I was referring to my personal perception of the tone. I know that FOH is going to be different, but I find very important to have a consistent tone coming to my ears from gig to gig just to get me in the mood and perform the song with joy and confidence that will translate to the audience. 

I take about 30s to EQ the amp to the venue and that's it. The FOH sound is important but, as long as it's not bad, I don't need it so consistent and I think that is the sound guy's job and responsibility.

 

 

I should add, Jesus! Your gig seems demanding! Guitar, synth, patches for every song, etc... Do you drink redbull before going to the stage?  :rolleyes:  B) 

Just kidding of course 


  • 0

#12 litesnsirens

litesnsirens

    Gear Head

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 881 posts

Posted 05 June 2013 - 03:53 PM

Ha, it wouldn't be so demanding if I wasn't also the singer. And for vocals I have a TC Helicon VoiceLive 2 right on my pedal board. But I've managed to make it easier than it sounds on here. I use an app called OnSong on my ipad, it can send midi messages so I have program changes on my ipad for both devices. Organize the songs into sets on the ipad and it flows beautifully. And if I need to call up a song that isn't in the set, I just find it in OnSong on the ipad, and I'm ready to go. It takes me about 10 minutes to setup up my rig for guitar and vocals and I move through the sets like butter. I never have to remember what sound I wanted on my mic or guitar for what song, it's just there.
  • 0

#13 SpiritSeeker

SpiritSeeker

    Just Startin'

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 7 posts

Posted 06 June 2013 - 11:54 AM

Hey, I really appreciate everyones thoughts and opinions.


Soooo, here is what I elected to do.

 

I like the ability of the L3t to do both acoustic and electric. As mentioned, I play a Santa Cruz OM that I am completely enamored with. The best playing acoustic I have ever owned. It appears that the L3T will allow me to play and mix that guitar without a modeler.

 

I have decided to hold off on purchasing a modeler until I have had a chance to find and test each one. I got to play through a friends Kemper last night and I have to say it was anything but digital sounding. He was using a Carr Rambler Amp profile that he made, it was amazingly real and sounded great when we switched between the amp and the modeler. Tonight I am going to try to get to a Guitar Center to the the POD Pro HD.

 

I will pick up the L3t, but have one question. Is the fan inside the L3t quiet?

Thanks

 

Bill


  • 0

#14 silverhead

silverhead

    Uber Guru

  • Line 6 Expert
  • 11094 posts
  • LocationOttawa, Ontario, Canada

Posted 06 June 2013 - 11:59 AM

Yes, it is quiet.

.

I will pick up the L3t, but have one question. Is the fan inside the L3t quiet?

.

  • 0

Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans.
.... John Lennon

 

 


#15 litesnsirens

litesnsirens

    Gear Head

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 881 posts

Posted 06 June 2013 - 12:11 PM

Ya it's pretty quiet, if you are in your basement and your not running anything through the speaker you might hear it a little bit but it usually turns off after a few seconds when there is no music coming through it.  You'll never hear it if you are playing some music through it, and I don't think if you're playing out somewhere an audience member would ever hear it.


  • 0

#16 RonMarton

RonMarton

    Power User

  • Line 6 Expert
  • 1275 posts
  • LocationSydney, Australia.

Posted 06 June 2013 - 01:19 PM

I'm wondering whether or not your "quiet fan" query relates to possibly using your L3t for foldback (or even some mixing) in the same "room" as acoustic instruments that you might be recording...

If so, the noise from the L3t's internal temperature-controlled cooling fan is probably sufficiently low for you to derive a good result, provided that you take care with your placement of the instrument/s themselves, that of some some acoustic "baffling" (mattresses, pillows and other soft furnishings work well) and the precise orientation of the close directional mic/s required to capture those instruments.


  • 0

#17 SpiritSeeker

SpiritSeeker

    Just Startin'

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 7 posts

Posted 06 June 2013 - 01:34 PM

RonMarton,

 

Not really, when I record I usually track the acoustic with stereo mics, so the L3t fan noise won't be a problem. When tracking electric, I will record through the modeler and interface. I don't imagine having the L3t running during tracking with mics. 

 

The last time I attempted to sing, I got an eviction notice from the wife, so I don't imagine that being a problem. :)

 

If I did need to record with mics and the L3t, I have a half dozen gobos that could as you say be utilized for some isolation.

 

Thanks for your thoughts.


  • 0

#18 RonMarton

RonMarton

    Power User

  • Line 6 Expert
  • 1275 posts
  • LocationSydney, Australia.

Posted 06 June 2013 - 01:40 PM

Gosh Bill !

 

I honestly don't think audio folk are the best qualified to advise on marital relationships...  :wacko:  :lol:


  • 0

#19 SpiritSeeker

SpiritSeeker

    Just Startin'

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 7 posts

Posted 07 June 2013 - 01:34 PM

Went to GC. They didn't have the L3t in stock at that store. I ordered one online and I should have it in about 4 days. Looking forward to working with it. 

 

Thanks for the input.


  • 0

#20 litesnsirens

litesnsirens

    Gear Head

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 881 posts

Posted 07 June 2013 - 01:56 PM

Be sure to let us know your thoughts...


  • 0




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users