Jump to content


Photo

Setlists, Banks, And Abcd Strategies

setlist banks patches presets abcd fx

  • Please log in to reply
34 replies to this topic

#1 pfsmith0

pfsmith0

    Just Startin'

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 69 posts

Posted 06 June 2013 - 10:23 AM

I originally planned on using setlists for different, um, sets. And then I’d select different banks for different songs, 16 banks is plenty for my sets. Then, within a song, a can select ABCD patches for different parts of the song – clean, crunch, lead, and maybe a high-gain lead or something. Then I also have FX 1, 2, 3 & 4 when I need something special for each of the 4 ABCD sounds. Sounds like a plan.

 

I decided to save one of the 1,2,3,4 slots by relying on amp models for my distortion, like selecting between Soldano clean, crunch, and high gain. That way, I select ABCD for the type of distortion and use 1234 for delay, chorus, tremolo, and some other effect (compression, noise gate, reverb are always on – no need for a 1234 switch on those).

 

The problem I’m finding is it takes 15msec for a new ABCD patch to load in (I measured it). This is too long. I can’t always anticipate the timing to punch it in, or I don’t have that much time. The audio is muted during this 15msec and you hear it when I switch between, say, clean rhythm to scorching lead.

 

So, now I’m thinking about going back to 1-8 FX buttons and just bank selecting between songs. But then I’m stuck with a single amp model, which is workable I suppose by using more of the FX buttons to switch in different distortion FX, but not as flexible.

 

So my question for the group is: what is your strategy in using setlists, banks, ABCD patches, and 1234 switches. How do you use them? Are you stuck with a single amp model for a given song? How do you overcome the 15msec audio mute when switching ABCD patches? When do you use ABCD patches and when do you use 1234 FX switches?

 

Thanks for any insight you can provide me.


  • 1

#2 wolbai

wolbai

    Iknowathingortwo

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 285 posts
  • LocationGermany

Posted 06 June 2013 - 10:58 AM

Good Topic and the way how to organize songs / presets / setlist is very relevant for those who are gigging ...

I make Cover Rock Music (1 band). Our program is currently approx. 50 songs. We play up to 5 sets per gig. Each set is around 10 songs. I use one set out of the eight of the POD HD per gigging set. Our programm may grow with time to 80-100. But we never play more than 5 sets per gig. So I will add new songs to the existing 5 gigging sets we will play in future.

I am using the ABCD-type mode and I use one complete bank for ONE song. I am using in average 2-3 presets per song. Rarely one or four and I change sometimes between amps within the song too. And I occupy all 4 FS with presets per song, so in case of an accidently wrong footswitch selection I do not fall into an empty NEW Tone presets trap.

I have encountered a slight delay when preset-switching as you have described (impressive to know that it is 15ms ...). But I honestly do not consider this as a real problem in a live situation to me: I have found my personal workaround in each song to that in a gigging situation and I do not anticipate that anybody in the audience actually realize any delay switches in the area of 15ms.

The other option using the FX 1-8 mode is not pratical for gigging to me personally.


  • -1

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

THE RETROMANIAC

Gear: JTV 59, JTV 69, JTV 89F, Godin Progression, Godin Seagull, Gibson Les Paul Deluxe, POD/HD500, DT50/212, DT50/Head, Marshall JVMC212, RIVERA Rockcrusher, Radial JDX Reactor
website: http://www.soundclick.com/wolbai  Band: http://www.jump-backtorock.de/


#3 Inerzia

Inerzia

    Iknowathingortwo

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 167 posts

Posted 06 June 2013 - 12:09 PM

I also use the ABCD approach and have 1234 for the occasional boost or switching of some effects that don't need to be on at all times.
Sometimes I use one of the switches for "solo mode" by assigning, for example, a delay and some boost or distortion to it. 
I don't use a bank for each song, in fact, many songs use just one patch that may or may not have anything switched during the song,

so, some of the banks/sounds are used on more than 20 songs, while some others, that cover more especific timbres, are just used in one.


  • 0

#4 Bushman2

Bushman2

    Just Startin'

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 53 posts

Posted 06 June 2013 - 01:30 PM

I tried to set mine up like my analog board/tube amp rig which ends up with ABCD patches with 1234 effects.

My ABCD is setup:

A: Clean

B: Crunchy rhythm

C: High Gain

D: Specialty Delay

They are all same amp with different pedal setups for each.

I get a nice clean Blackface Fender tone, then add OD for Crunchy Rhythm, and layer a Classic Distortion on top for heavyn stuff and leads.

My 1234 is setup:

1: Delay on/off

2: Chorus on/off

3: OD on/off

4: Distortion on/off

I don't use more than 4 patches for a set. I only use one patch per song and turn OD/Dist./Chorus/Delay on/off during the song.

That gives me a clean, crunch, lead, and chorus, to chosse from during a song.


  • 0

#5 jstock

jstock

    Just Startin'

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 78 posts

Posted 06 June 2013 - 02:39 PM

The posts on here show what a versitile animal the HD is, frankly there is no right or wrong way and clearly pfsmith you are using the POD to its max.

 

For gigging I tend to be minimalistic these days. It goes something like this..

 

A set list for each type of output and guitar. I just set this at the start of the gig depending on venue and gear.

Just like Bushman2 I treat the Pod like a traditional pedal board however I use the same amp on every patch however each patch has the amp gain increased so you have a clean amp on A and a really heavy crunch on D. Each patch has the same selection of typical pedals, Overdrive, Chorus, Reverb, Delay, Wah.

 

Each bank has a seperate amp set up as described however I only use one bank per night. I found that doing this reduced the amount of time you spent levelling - similar amps have similar characteristics no matter what the gain level.  The sonic differences are minimised for the auidence making it easyier for them to get used to a single sound - well thats my theory anyway.


  • 0

#6 jimsreynolds

jimsreynolds

    Power User

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 2249 posts

Posted 07 June 2013 - 12:22 AM

Off enjoying a stompbox jag at the moment but will be back on the HD500 at some point!


When I was gigging it regularly, I would try to stay within a patch wherever possible.  I ran in FS5-8 mode so all footswitches were toggles,  I would change preset using the bank key then FS5-8 to select the preset.  I would use lots of switching to bring effects in and out and/or flip between two amp models within the preset.

 

This approach avoided any delays when presets reloaded... although for most of what I did the dropout did not matter and got buried in the band mix.

 

Sometimes I was compelled to use two presets because the changes I needed were too complicated to setup within a patch and that was a bit of a pain cause it required a double-stomp to change preset.  I wish Line 6 would provide more flexible toggling and latching within their pedal assigns as per ... er ... the obvious major competitors products.   Good assignment capabilities are really important to allow control in live situations.

 

However, I used 4CM so I had the added ability to switch real preamp channels using MIDI also and that opened up my options a lot.

 

I think there is lots of mileage in creating a few generic presets that cover most of your tonal bases and try and use those wherever possible, breaking out a special preset only where the song absolutely demands it.  Other forums sages suggested this and it makes a lot of sense to maintain some quality go-to patches to allow you to keep focus on your fingers rather than your feet!


  • 0

#7 wolbai

wolbai

    Iknowathingortwo

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 285 posts
  • LocationGermany

Posted 07 June 2013 - 01:32 AM

There is no right or wrong at that point:

personal taste how to deal with a foot switch / pedals, range of music styles, number of songs, number of guitar players in the band, accuracy level to cover songs/sounds, the guitar rig in total, the addiction to play with the boys toys :-)

I have also started to use morphing of sounds/presets with the EXP-1 which is a pretty cool thing in some songs.

The use of a JTV (including Acoustic models) - HD500 - DT50/212 guitar rig as I do, tends to more usage of presets per song.

So I guess the more who chime in, the more valuable this thread is going to be.

By the way: May be this is a helpful for the one or another: I have marked the foot switches I am going to use during a song with white cellotape, because I hit sometimes the TAP or the Down/Up-bank foot switch. During a song I am mainly using the PS-1 to PS-4 foot switches:

https://dl.dropboxus...8/POD HD500.JPG

So I guess the more who chime in, the more valuable this thread is going to be.
  • 0

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

THE RETROMANIAC

Gear: JTV 59, JTV 69, JTV 89F, Godin Progression, Godin Seagull, Gibson Les Paul Deluxe, POD/HD500, DT50/212, DT50/Head, Marshall JVMC212, RIVERA Rockcrusher, Radial JDX Reactor
website: http://www.soundclick.com/wolbai  Band: http://www.jump-backtorock.de/


#8 moondancer

moondancer

    Just Startin'

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 99 posts
  • LocationGermany

Posted 07 June 2013 - 03:14 AM

@pfsmith

do you perform alone or with band? Where have you remarked this 15 ms, at home or in a live performance?

In a band: who will hear this short interrupt in the audience? Yourself will have more delay in switching from one sound to another  :D

15 ms is a winkle of an eye, I can't believe that anybody will notice this!

 

Organizing patches:

I play also in a cover-band. Roundabout 150 song in our programm. I organize one song in one patch. This means a lot of work. Sometimes with dual amp patches, sometimes by multiple action that is assigned to one switch, to the expression pedals or the knobs of my Variax. for clean/hi gain amp I normally use panner and a dual amp setup. I often alter at the same time quite a lot of parameter in different fx. E. g. LRB Night Owls: I use the Threadplate with a screamer in front, harmonizer, delay and reverb.

For muffled almost clean sound I reduce drive of the screamer and the threadplate also bass of the threadplate to 0, the same I do with the mix of the harmonizer (additional it will be switched by FS4). I raise at same time the mid, treble an presence of amp. All done be the volume knob of the Variax. This will give a nice tack-ta-tack-ta-tack sound.

For the dual voiced intro and interlude I push the volume knob and the drive of screamer and threadplate, give more body and delay to the lead sound and switch on the harmonizer. To come back quickly to the rhythm sound I turn the volume knob to 0 get back a brilliant sound with attack and at the same time mix down the harmonizer until I switch 'em of. Solo will be done without harmonizer and I can change the color of sound additional by the pups.

Only a little example what can be done. Surely it takes a lot of time to dial in the sound, but not false step on a wrong sound or effect. Less use of slots and banks.

My sounds are managed by database. Alphabetical list of Songs and sound banks/slots or a programm for the evening with the order of the sets an songs and the corresponding patches. This is done with an office-software.

I use only one set list in the HD500 for the cover-band and even have free memory slots  B)

Addendum: I go straight from the HD500 to the p.a.


  • 0

Stay tuned brothers

Regards Edgar


#9 pfsmith0

pfsmith0

    Just Startin'

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 69 posts

Posted 07 June 2013 - 07:53 AM

Thanks for the responses so far. I play direct into a PA in a band setting. I don't know if anyone else in the band (or audience) hears the 15msec mute but I sure do! It's not the same as a 15msec delay (which my foot tapping can easily cause) because of the mute. That's the problem. Not delay.

 

It sounds like most of you live with the mute and work around it. Said another way, the flexibility that ABCD patches give you far outweights the hassle of mitigating the effects of the mute. Maybe I just have to try harder but, man, it's really annoying and takes away from "the moment".


  • 0

#10 Slidedude

Slidedude

    Just Startin'

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 21 posts

Posted 08 June 2013 - 04:23 PM

Hi all - I've experimented with a lot of different approaches. Here's what I'm doing currently - and I'm using ABCD Mode. Amp is a DT25. Master is at about 50%, sometimes a bit lower.
 
I generally have 3 main amp sounds that fit most of what I do. A Twin vibe, Dr. Z vibe and a Plexi vibe. My main guitars are a Strat, a PRS McCarty hollowbody, and I use a JTV69 for all my alt tuning stuff.
 
FX that are always on are a Spring Reverb and Tube Compressor - both very subtle. For the Plexi modes I don't use the Tube Compressor, but it really helps me get enough level on my cleaner sounds with no breakup.
 
The top row is always:
 
FS1 - subtle Dynamic Delay
FS2 - Ping Pong Delay - longer delay time, wetter mix
FS3 - Bias Tremelo
FS4 - Dimension chorus
 
Bank One is set for the Strat
 
FS5 - Twin Clean
FS6 - Twin Crunch (same preset as above, with a Tube Screamer engaged for just a bit of edge)
FS7 - Twin Solo (same as Twin Clean, but with a Tube Driver engaged for Solo
FS8 - Muted/Blank
 
Bank 2 is set for the Strat, with a Dr. Z amp - everything else is the same.
Bank 3 is set for the Strat, with a Super Lead 100 Plexi Brt amp - everything else is the same
 
Bank 4 is set for my PRS with the Twin
Bank 5 is set for the PRS with the Dr. Z
Bank 6 is set for the PRS with the Plexi
 
Whew. Sounds complicated, but I basically have a Bank for each guitar, with a Twin. Dr. Z, or Plexi. When I use the JTV I usually use the Banks for the Strat, because the output of the JTV is pretty hot.


  • 0

#11 moondancer

moondancer

    Just Startin'

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 99 posts
  • LocationGermany

Posted 10 June 2013 - 12:42 AM

 I don't know if anyone else in the band (or audience) hears the 15msec mute but I sure do!

 

Modelling means, that the cpu inside of the hd500 had you load all data of the models in a patch in the memory. This will always cause latency period. What's IMO more bad, changing the sound will cut reverb and delay. Hence I try do do all with one patch and the hd500 gives me much more possibilty than all boards I used before.


  • 1

Stay tuned brothers

Regards Edgar


#12 CharlesRabin

CharlesRabin

    Just Startin'

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 1 posts

Posted 02 October 2013 - 07:46 PM

Hi anyone know, why is it my pod hd 500 is only showing Setlist 1 until Setlist 6? I cant find the "Best of HD"  "User 1 unti USer 3" on my pod hd 500. The only thing i can see is all written as Setlist 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, Setlist 6. Anyone can advice why is this happening? Is this been replaced?


  • 0

#13 silverhead

silverhead

    Uber Guru

  • Line 6 Expert
  • 11098 posts
  • LocationOttawa, Ontario, Canada

Posted 03 October 2013 - 04:36 AM

The setlists are installed with the firmware. You will need to update/reinstall the firmware to get them back.

 

Before reinstalling, make sure you back up any presets/setlist you wish to restore later. During installation, when prompted, choose to replace your existing presets. After installation be sure to reset the global parameters and recalibrate the pedal.


  • 0

Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans.
.... John Lennon

 

 


#14 gunpointmetal

gunpointmetal

    Iknowathingortwo

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 424 posts

Posted 03 October 2013 - 07:03 AM

Is your HD firmware up to date....I was noticing more patch lag on the original FW than I do now, but it is still present...if you don't want to spend over $1000 on a modeler, the only one I've seen with no noticeable lag is the Zoom stuff. Boss stuff "feels" like it does this, but it basically just holds a half-second of audio till the patch is loaded, and it has spillover with ambience effects. Try out an RP-series digitech pedal if you want to hear what bad latency sounds like...


  • 0

#15 joel_brown

joel_brown

    Iknowathingortwo

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 327 posts
  • LocationVirginia

Posted 03 October 2013 - 07:09 AM

Yes there is an extremely slight muted pause.  As the only guitar player in a Black Sabbath Tribute band, it can stand out when a differant patch is loaded.  Especially when switching from a semi-clean tone to high-gain with large volume changes.

 

I've never had a guitar effects unit NOT have some micro muted delay during patch switching and have become used to this over the years.  I just anticpate it and hit the pedal just before hitting the strings.


  • 0

#16 djspleen

djspleen

    Just Startin'

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 53 posts
  • LocationLancaster County, PA

Posted 03 October 2013 - 11:55 AM

I use a minimalist approach (so far). 

 

For gigging I generally use one bank set up like this:

A-Recto

B-Marshall

C-AC30

D-Acoustic

 

Each patch has various effects (chorus/distortions/delay, etc.) controlled by FS1-FS4.  I don't have time (nor the patience, at this point) to fiddle around trying to get an exact replica tone for each of the 50 or so songs that we play.  I can make all of our cover songs fit into one of these patches.

 

Regarding the "delay" when hitting a footswitch, I've noticed it, but deal with it by stomping at an opportune moment (during a rest or at the end of a measure, etc.).  With the rest of the band playing on I'm relying on the fact that most (all?) of the audience won't hear my 15ms of silence. 


  • 0

#17 aj55john

aj55john

    Just Startin'

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 1 posts

Posted 04 October 2013 - 07:02 AM

Be sure if you turn on an effect with any switch FS1 - 4 that you turn it off with the same switch.  Otherwise, if you turn it off by reselecting the original patch switch ABCD, there will be a delay as the patch in the bank is reloaded.  ~Regards


  • 0

#18 Geekydaddy

Geekydaddy

    Just Startin'

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 32 posts
  • LocationSarnia, Ontario

Posted 04 October 2013 - 05:52 PM

  Opinions Please

 

I am on my second HD. Had the 500 and "upgraded" to the X recently.   I use the ABCD/1234 approach BUTdue to our WIDE repertoire I require to use large swings in amps and tones. I play mostly at the same large venue with a permanent PA install (Midas console c/w EAW mains and IEM's. With a large tonal palette it is difficult for the engineer to keep me "in the mix".

 

 My question is this ~

 

Would it be better to use the KISS principle and use one or two "amp models" to help the engineer 

 

                    OR

 

Continue with the large swings ?

 

                                                        Thanks


  • 0

#19 silverhead

silverhead

    Uber Guru

  • Line 6 Expert
  • 11098 posts
  • LocationOttawa, Ontario, Canada

Posted 05 October 2013 - 05:24 AM

...

 

Would it be better.....

 

Better for whom?

- for the sound guy? definitely better to KISS

- for you and your band? depends on how 'close' you want your sound to be to the original for rehearsals and onstage monitoring

- for the audience? depends on how good (although troublesome) a job the sound guy is doing. If he's keeping up with the switching OK then the audience is probably also hearing a sound that is 'close' to the original, and very recognizable. If you're getting lost in the mix regularly then the audience experience is poorer than it would be with the KISS approach.

 

... so who do you want to make things 'better' for?


  • 0

Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans.
.... John Lennon

 

 


#20 Geekydaddy

Geekydaddy

    Just Startin'

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 32 posts
  • LocationSarnia, Ontario

Posted 05 October 2013 - 06:14 AM

Better for whom?

- for the sound guy? definitely better to KISS

- for you and your band? depends on how 'close' you want your sound to be to the original for rehearsals and onstage monitoring

- for the audience? depends on how good (although troublesome) a job the sound guy is doing. If he's keeping up with the switching OK then the audience is probably also hearing a sound that is 'close' to the original, and very recognizable. If you're getting lost in the mix regularly then the audience experience is poorer than it would be with the KISS approach.

 

... so who do you want to make things 'better' for?

 Personally ...  AUDIENCE


  • 0





Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: setlist, banks, patches, presets, abcd, fx

0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users