Jump to content


Photo

Tyler Variax 2.10 version, too much reverb

tyler variax 2.10 reverb

  • Please log in to reply
23 replies to this topic

#1 MatB39

MatB39

    Just Startin'

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 6 posts

Posted 18 August 2014 - 04:02 PM

Hi. I've had my Tyler Variax, 59p since January :D . I've updated it to the latest version (2.10) as soon as it came out.

At the beginning it sounded great but the more time I spent playing it with this version, the more something stood out. 
So I went out and managed to test it out against an original "Spank" and "Lester". Recorded the three of them and it confirmed what I was hearing: for some reason all the models in the 2.10 version have way too much reverb. 

I rolled back to previous versions (as far back as 1.81) and back to 2.10 (and even re-installed 2.10 having already that same version in it already) and I still hear the same thing.

Has anybody experienced anything like it or knows how to even fix it or turn that reverb down or off?

Thanks!

Mat. :ph34r: 
 


  • 0

#2 phil_m

phil_m

    Uber Guru

  • Line 6 Expert
  • 5549 posts
  • LocationMinneapolis, MN

Posted 18 August 2014 - 04:10 PM

My guess is that the reverb is coming from somewhere else in your setup. There is no reverb modeled in the electrics on JTV (there is some room modeling with mic placement on the acoustic models). What are you using to record?


  • 0
Time is a train
Makes the future the past
Leaves you standing in the station
Your face pressed up against the glass

 


#3 MatB39

MatB39

    Just Startin'

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 6 posts

Posted 18 August 2014 - 04:26 PM

I recorded both straight into Logic Pro X in identical tracks. All through the same channel of the same Saffire Pro 14.

All I did basically was set up one track, duplicated it twice until I got four of the same, plugged the original (non-variax) guitars, recorded, unplugged the guitar, plugged the Variax (with the same guitar cable even) and recorded again.

How (or where within Workbench HD) can I fiddle with the mic placement on the ac. models?


  • 0

#4 clay-man

clay-man

    Gear Head

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 911 posts

Posted 18 August 2014 - 05:09 PM

There shouldn't be any reverb. Electrics have 0 reverb in a dry signal. If there's reverb in your signal from the guitar, then either something is wrong or Line 6 is high if they think they need to model reverb in an electric guitar, because like I said, electric guitars have no reverb.

 

I've heard a complaint similar to this though, so maybe there's a problem with your guitar.


  • 0

For a minute there, I lost myself.

Radiohead_bear-728286%5B1%5D.png 


#5 Charlie_Watt

Charlie_Watt

    Power User

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1196 posts

Posted 18 August 2014 - 06:11 PM

Body vibrations can act like reverb since they continue after a note is played.  Notes have Attack and Decay like Reverb does.  I would call it vibration modes rather than reverb but all guitars have them.


  • 0

#6 clay-man

clay-man

    Gear Head

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 911 posts

Posted 19 August 2014 - 09:46 AM

Body vibrations can act like reverb since they continue after a note is played.  Notes have Attack and Decay like Reverb does.  I would call it vibration modes rather than reverb but all guitars have them.

 

Yes but like you said, this is a whole nother beast from reverb. Adding reverb to "simulate" this is just insane. Besides, the vibrations should die off as fast as sound can travel and stop in the body, which is instantaneous.


  • 0

For a minute there, I lost myself.

Radiohead_bear-728286%5B1%5D.png 


#7 Charlie_Watt

Charlie_Watt

    Power User

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1196 posts

Posted 19 August 2014 - 02:51 PM

Not true.  The body vibrations can ring as long as the material supports it based on the damping ratio.  Most solid body guitars won't ring much.


  • 0

#8 clay-man

clay-man

    Gear Head

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 911 posts

Posted 19 August 2014 - 03:47 PM

Not true.  The body vibrations can ring as long as the material supports it based on the damping ratio.  Most solid body guitars won't ring much.

 

For hollowbodies, maybe, but it's still pretty instant, not super instant, but it sounds nothing like throwing on a reverb pedal at all. It will just be resonance if anything. Throwing in a reverb effect on the modeling is still ridiculous. If anything would need reverb it would be the acoustic models. 


  • 0

For a minute there, I lost myself.

Radiohead_bear-728286%5B1%5D.png 


#9 fr0sty

fr0sty

    Just Startin'

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 52 posts

Posted 19 August 2014 - 04:06 PM

Can you attache the mp3 you recorded?

 

I recorded both straight into Logic Pro X in identical tracks. All through the same channel of the same Saffire Pro 14.

All I did basically was set up one track, duplicated it twice until I got four of the same, plugged the original (non-variax) guitars, recorded, unplugged the guitar, plugged the Variax (with the same guitar cable even) and recorded again.

How (or where within Workbench HD) can I fiddle with the mic placement on the ac. models?


  • 0

#10 Charlie_Watt

Charlie_Watt

    Power User

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1196 posts

Posted 19 August 2014 - 05:26 PM

From what I remember, the Line6 models are measured on the actual guitars using acoustic sensors.  They don't make up the models and "throw in reverb".


  • 0

#11 jpmull

jpmull

    Just Startin'

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 40 posts

Posted 19 August 2014 - 05:40 PM

You might want to check that Logic doesn't have any sends set up with effects on the sends or effects on the master channel.  My JTV's models are all clean, meaning there are no effects included in the modeling.


  • 0

#12 clay-man

clay-man

    Gear Head

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 911 posts

Posted 19 August 2014 - 07:05 PM

From what I remember, the Line6 models are measured on the actual guitars using acoustic sensors.  They don't make up the models and "throw in reverb".

 

I know they use some type of technology to make algorithms through some type of convolution or impulse response type data for the main part of the modeling, but I know they use other effects to replicate other aspects of modeling. Some type of resonance or synthesis for the bigsby ring being emulated, strat springs, resonance/filter ADSR for the Sitar, volume ADSR for the banjo...

 

Also, I stated that if Line 6 DID put reverb in, then they were doing something wrong, but this could be a problem with their guitar or setup, not the modeling technology, as in I'm not stating that it's a fact that they put in reverb in the guitar.

 

 

There's a reason why I have a Variax myself, because I know they didn't just throw an EQ effect and then guessed through A/B comparison, I know these are real captures of the guitars through technology.


  • 0

For a minute there, I lost myself.

Radiohead_bear-728286%5B1%5D.png 


#13 Charlie_Watt

Charlie_Watt

    Power User

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1196 posts

Posted 20 August 2014 - 04:53 AM

Those things being emulated are picked up by their measurement equipment when they characterize the instrument to be modeled.  They used the same technique to model amps.  Folks complained about some of the modeled features of amps but the real ones had those features.


  • 0

#14 mdmayfield

mdmayfield

    Iknowathingortwo

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 385 posts

Posted 20 August 2014 - 07:31 AM

Hi. I've had my Tyler Variax, 59p since January :D . I've updated it to the latest version (2.10) as soon as it came out.

At the beginning it sounded great but the more time I spent playing it with this version, the more something stood out. 
So I went out and managed to test it out against an original "Spank" and "Lester". Recorded the three of them and it confirmed what I was hearing: for some reason all the models in the 2.10 version have way too much reverb. 

I rolled back to previous versions (as far back as 1.81) and back to 2.10 (and even re-installed 2.10 having already that same version in it already) and I still hear the same thing.

Has anybody experienced anything like it or knows how to even fix it or turn that reverb down or off?

Thanks!

Mat. :ph34r: 
 

 

Mat, I have a hunch that this is a physical resonance in your JTV-59, and not in the modeling.

 

Do you hear the reverb sound through the magnetic pickups? (Though, if not, it's worth noting the piezoelectric pickups can "hear" guitar body resonances more than magnetic pickups.)

 

Also, if you can post your raw sound clips straight from the Variax, with no amp modeling or effects, (and maybe the LP and Strat you're comparing it to), it would be helpful to diagnose.


  • 0

#15 MatB39

MatB39

    Just Startin'

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 6 posts

Posted 20 August 2014 - 09:46 AM

Attached File  Variax Spank 2.mp3   798.52KB   21 downloadsAttached File  Original Lester.mp3   812.4KB   8 downloadsAttached File  Variax Lester 3.mp3   798.52KB   14 downloadsAttached File  Variax Mags.mp3   798.52KB   7 downloadsAttached File  Original Spank.mp3   812.4KB   11 downloads

Mat, I have a hunch that this is a physical resonance in your JTV-59, and not in the modeling.

 

Do you hear the reverb sound through the magnetic pickups? (Though, if not, it's worth noting the piezoelectric pickups can "hear" guitar body resonances more than magnetic pickups.)

 

Also, if you can post your raw sound clips straight from the Variax, with no amp modeling or effects, (and maybe the LP and Strat you're comparing it to), it would be helpful to diagnose.

It's not a vibration from the guitar itself (also suggested by Charlie_Watt, quote below) as it doesn't show when recording through the magnetic pickups or even heard when the guitar is unplugged.

Here I am attaching 5 tracks: Original Spank, Variax Spank, Original Lester, Variax Lester and Variax Mags.
 

Charlie_Watt

Power User

  • default_large.png
  • Members
  • bullet_black.pngbullet_black.pngbullet_black.pngbullet_black.png
  • 1145 posts
169 
Good

Posted 18 August 2014 - 06:11 PM

Body vibrations can act like reverb since they continue after a note is played.  Notes have Attack and Decay like Reverb does.  I would call it vibration modes rather than reverb but all guitars have them.

 

 


  • 0

#16 mdmayfield

mdmayfield

    Iknowathingortwo

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 385 posts

Posted 20 August 2014 - 11:35 AM

 

attachicon.gifVariax Spank 2.mp3attachicon.gifOriginal Lester.mp3attachicon.gifVariax Lester 3.mp3attachicon.gifVariax Mags.mp3attachicon.gifOriginal Spank.mp3

It's not a vibration from the guitar itself (also suggested by Charlie_Watt, quote below) as it doesn't show when recording through the magnetic pickups or even heard when the guitar is unplugged.

Here I am attaching 5 tracks: Original Spank, Variax Spank, Original Lester, Variax Lester and Variax Mags.

 

 

Thanks for attaching the tracks. Those sound pretty much normal to me for the most part. If I really listen for it, there's a tiny bit of what sounds like ringing on a few of the notes on the Variax Spank track. It seems within the ballpark of what I'd expect from any electric guitar recorded direct, though.

 

To my ear, the tiny bit of ringing sounds like it might be coming from the strings between the nut and tuners. Piezos would pick that up much more than magnetic pickups, so that may be why you only hear it in the modeled guitars. If you have something soft that can keep those parts of the strings damped, does the reverb-like sound go away?


  • 0

#17 MatB39

MatB39

    Just Startin'

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 6 posts

Posted 20 August 2014 - 12:26 PM

Thanks for attaching the tracks. Those sound pretty much normal to me for the most part. If I really listen for it, there's a tiny bit of what sounds like ringing on a few of the notes on the Variax Spank track. It seems within the ballpark of what I'd expect from any electric guitar recorded direct, though.

 

To my ear, the tiny bit of ringing sounds like it might be coming from the strings between the nut and tuners. Piezos would pick that up much more than magnetic pickups, so that may be why you only hear it in the modeled guitars. If you have something soft that can keep those parts of the strings damped, does the reverb-like sound go away?

Fair enough. I do play with a rubber plectrum holder that is held in place between the strings there but it only holds the middle four strings and does not vibrate. However, I will try with something softer holding all of them.

To me those two Variax models sound almost banjo-like but they didn't use to, before updating to the 2.10 version. :(


  • 0

#18 clay-man

clay-man

    Gear Head

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 911 posts

Posted 20 August 2014 - 03:47 PM

Those things being emulated are picked up by their measurement equipment when they characterize the instrument to be modeled.  They used the same technique to model amps.  Folks complained about some of the modeled features of amps but the real ones had those features.

 

Yeah. But like I've said, I wouldn't think using standard reverb is appropriate for emulating the guitar vibrating. They might of just used the same convolution stuff for it. It would be more appropriate anyways, to be using an impulse response.

 

Either way, I think this reverb is more of a problem with the guitar, not the modeling, or else we'd have a lot more people complaining about it.

 

In his samples I couldn't hear any reverb.

 

 

 

Do take note though, that any ringing could be sympathetic resonance in the physical guitar itself, which many people have complained about, which is due to a possible bad setup.

 

Speaking of sympathetic resonance, like I've said, they also emulated the strat springs and bigsby ringing thing. I'm not sure if that's still there in the HD firmware, but it was in the old Variax. I can understand the bigsby, but emulating the strat springs is just ridiculous in my opinion. They should have put dampeners on the springs of the guitar they're modeling. No one likes ringing tremolo springs on a strat.


  • 0

For a minute there, I lost myself.

Radiohead_bear-728286%5B1%5D.png 


#19 Beagle1

Beagle1

    Just Startin'

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 4 posts

Posted 26 August 2014 - 05:26 PM

Hi. I've had my Tyler Variax, 59p since January :D . I've updated it to the latest version (2.10) as soon as it came out.

At the beginning it sounded great but the more time I spent playing it with this version, the more something stood out. 
So I went out and managed to test it out against an original "Spank" and "Lester". Recorded the three of them and it confirmed what I was hearing: for some reason all the models in the 2.10 version have way too much reverb. 

I rolled back to previous versions (as far back as 1.81) and back to 2.10 (and even re-installed 2.10 having already that same version in it already) and I still hear the same thing.

Has anybody experienced anything like it or knows how to even fix it or turn that reverb down or off?

Thanks!

Mat. :ph34r: 
 

 

I'm so glad someone else noticed this about the HD 2.0 models! I'm not sure if I'd call it reverb - more like some sort of very light room ambience, not unlike what you would hear running your guitar through a DTAR MamaBear or Fishman Aura acoustic processor. I have a 59 as well BTW, so maybe it is something related to that model rather than the entire Variax line.

 

Whatever it is, I definitely hear it in the samples you posted. There is something just too crisp and sterile about the HD models. I really prefer all the 1.0 non-HD models and actually went back to 1.71 for a while because I prefer the older acoustic models as well. I wish there were a way that Line6 could give us all the original (non-HD) guitar models, but with the tuning stability, palm muting, and other enhancements introduced in 2.0  :-(


  • 0

#20 zacflame

zacflame

    Just Startin'

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 12 posts

Posted 28 August 2014 - 04:18 AM

I heard the same thing when I upgraded, I flashed and reflashed, I agree with beagle 1 , the hd upgrade is to crisp, I play every weekend. It was night and day hearing it in a band setting vs playing at home, I could have lived with it at home, but in a mix it got way lost, I quit worrying with it and have settled on v 1.9 , Iam pretty happy and my guitar cuts through like it used to, I thought it was just me, but Its there for sure


  • 0

#21 snhirsch

snhirsch

    Iknowathingortwo

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 312 posts
  • LocationBurlington, VT USA

Posted 28 August 2014 - 05:14 PM

Have you tried backing off the tone control when set to the acoustic models?  It has a very different effect on those than on the electrics.  ISTR that it shifts the balance between string vibration vs. body vibration and may help mitigate against the "crispness" you're hearing.


  • 0

40 years of Rock-n-Roll and proud of it!

 

PRS Custom 24 (1990) w/ GK-3 Hex PU

James Tyler Variax JTV-69(k) w/ Strat Neck

Roland GR-55 Guitar Synth

QSC K10 FRFR

 


#22 Charlie_Watt

Charlie_Watt

    Power User

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1196 posts

Posted 28 August 2014 - 05:35 PM

It's supposed to simulate moving the mic position for acoustic models from what I have heard.


  • 0

#23 clay-man

clay-man

    Gear Head

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 911 posts

Posted 28 August 2014 - 05:54 PM

The Variax HD firmware is supposed to sound crisp, yeah. How is that a bad thing though? It captured the high frequencies of the guitars it's modeling more better than the old Variax, which people say sounds like "taking a blanket off the speaker". 


  • 0

For a minute there, I lost myself.

Radiohead_bear-728286%5B1%5D.png 


#24 mdmayfield

mdmayfield

    Iknowathingortwo

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 385 posts

Posted 28 August 2014 - 06:06 PM

Most of the models in 2.0/2.1 are quite a bit quieter than the models in 1.9 and before. That will end up sounding tinny, weak, sustain-less, etc., if you simply use the exact same patches or amp settings as in 1.9.

 

On the other hand, if you adjust the amp gain or pedal controls to compensate for the quieter Variax models, you may find that you actually prefer the 2.0+ models; at least, that's what happened to me.

 

I had a couple dozen HD500 patches dialed in perfectly for my Variax 300, and they worked just about as well with the JTV at firmware 1.9 and lower. With 2.1, many of the patches sound terrible, because the guitar level going into the amp is much lower. After turning up the drive and tweaking the EQ a bit, I'm growing to prefer 2.1.

 

As with anything, this is all up to your own personal taste and preferences, but as far as my own experience, I found that the lower volume was the only thing ruining the sounds, and after fixing that issue, they were an improvement over 1.9 to my ear.


  • 0





Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: tyler variax, 2.10, reverb

0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users