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Hd500 As Dt25 Controller Without Amp Modeling

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#1 rnorth

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 02:10 PM

You would think there would be a simple way to do this...  How do I use the HD500 as a controller for the DT25 controls (class, topology, mode, A/B) without specifying a specific amp model?  Or is there a "DT25" amp model available that can be downloaded?  Related to this, is there a way to change the amp settings using the effects buttons?  One would think that all this would be possible through the HD Link connection.


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#2 TheRealZap

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 03:01 PM

the same amps in the pod hd are in the DT25.DT50 selecting the amp on the pod selects it in the DT... along with those other settings.

in other words....

the DT amps have modeled pre-amps, the same modeled pre-amps in the HD, if you configure it the same they should be pretty much identical.


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#3 theoptimizers

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 06:04 PM

You would think there would be a simple way to do this...  How do I use the HD500 as a controller for the DT25 controls (class, topology, mode, A/B) without specifying a specific amp model?  Or is there a "DT25" amp model available that can be downloaded?  Related to this, is there a way to change the amp settings using the effects buttons?  One would think that all this would be possible through the HD Link connection.

 

I would love to have an answer to this.

 

The only way to do it is to program the mid commands, and use the HD as a midi controller.  It's not as simple as it should be.


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#4 talwilkins

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Posted 16 June 2013 - 03:55 AM

Listen to TheRealZap, he knows what he's talking about. All the parameters you ask for are directly controllable by the HD500. Why would you want to controle them without using the pre-amp model? The Dt-25 uses the same model anyway.


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#5 rnorth

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 05:33 PM

the same amps in the pod hd are in the DT25.DT50 selecting the amp on the pod selects it in the DT... along with those other settings.

in other words....

the DT amps have modeled pre-amps, the same modeled pre-amps in the HD, if you configure it the same they should be pretty much identical.

If I wanted to just model tones from the pedal, I wouldn't have bought the DT and would have just connected the HD500 to my old Yamaha GT100-112 on the clean channel.  It sounds like I need to pick some amp model that provides the least change to the tone output of the pedal as a starting point and then create a bank of sounds from that amp model with different DT settings.  Seems odd that I have to do it this way.


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#6 TheRealZap

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 05:40 PM

that makes no sense whatsoever... connecting the pod to any other amp no matter how good or bad...

does not allow that amp model to have its authentic REAL (as in not modeled) internal power amp.

and whether you like it or not... the amp models in the DT are the same as the amp models in the pod...

apparently that makes you unhappy... but it's by design, and i personally think it's a great and well thought out integrated system,

with each part also being useful on its own.

 

sounds like you really don't understand the integration and are planning some sort of unnecessarily complicated scenario to solve some non-existent problem.

seems odd that someone would rather do that, than learn the equipment that they bought....

but as long as you like your results go on with your bad self.

 

If I wanted to just model tones from the pedal, I wouldn't have bought the DT and would have just connected the HD500 to my old Yamaha GT100-112 on the clean channel.  It sounds like I need to pick some amp model that provides the least change to the tone output of the pedal as a starting point and then create a bank of sounds from that amp model with different DT settings.  Seems odd that I have to do it this way.


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#7 greghall

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 12:54 AM

I think the original question is a valid one, if you are intending to use the DT25 amp standalone. I agree with Zap that it makes no sense when connected to an HD500, as the HD500 becomes part of the DT amp when connected with the L6 Link, providing a lot more control.

 

But having some of the different pre-amp models configured in the DT25 might be useful, for instance, if there was a problem with the HD500 at a gig. 

 

I've not tried using the HD500 to configure the DT amp via the midi control, but in theory this should be possible, It would be very interesting to hear from anyone who has tried it? 


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#8 vcuomo

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 10:39 AM

The answer to the OP's question is no, you can't "easily" do what you're asking to do.

But, there is a way that I think should work (for most amp configurations, anyway). Find an already-modeled amp on the HD that has the same physical configuration you're looking for, then use the HD and/or DT to adjust the other amp parameters to your liking. I think (I've never tried it) you can also change the other amp parameters (class, pentode/triode, etc.) on the DT and then hit the Save button (twice) on the HD and then recall it whenever you want. Not perfect, but it should work.
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#9 rnorth

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 01:34 PM

I tried the last suggestion.  It seems that the HD500 adds modeling to the sound no matter what.  If I select no amp, and adjust the settings on the amp for the sound I want, it also does not appear that there is a way to save this.  It's too bad... The DT500 has a lot of tonal flexibility on its own apart from the HD500's modeling capability.  There just doesn't seem to be a way to tap in to it.


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#10 rnorth

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 01:39 PM

I did some other web searches and came across this post. http://line6.com/sup.../message/200255  Looks like I'm not the only one who would like this feature.  Sadly, the other post is from 2010 and the feature is still not in the DT / HD combination.


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#11 TheRealZap

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 02:00 PM

and will probably never be... much like the old post, that user didn't exactly understand the products.

but there has also been changes made over time as well...meaning you can't take 2 years worth of updates....

and assume that the problems, real or perceived would still be the exact same problem...

just because he used similar wording to express his desire.

you basically want an amp selected on the pod to sound the same as the DT amp without the pod...

it can be done...

i can not tell you what you are missing... but one of the most common mistakes is trying to use no cab.,...

the DT standalone DOES use cab models... just because you can't see them and select them, doesn't mean they aren't there.

 

 

I did some other web searches and came across this post. http://line6.com/sup.../message/200255  Looks like I'm not the only one who would like this feature.  Sadly, the other post is from 2010 and the feature is still not in the DT / HD combination.


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#12 stuchip

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 06:16 AM

I have to agree with Morth.  I have two DT25's (combo and head w/cab) and I love them.  

 

But....I bought a HD300 with the hope that I can use it to control more variations of the 4 inbuilt voices/tones the amp itself knocks out; without the restrictions of just channel A or channel B. I want 4 or 5 variations of the built in tones, easily switchable at my feet.  I don't want to have to dial in the tone for the next song at the gig.  

 

When I use the HD300 via L6 Link, it adds an extra something that I don't want.  The tones in the Pod do not match the tones in the amp.  Neither in name (when you sync up with HD300 edit) or in sound. The only way to get rid of the unwanted extra processing the HD300 has is to bypass the 'amp' footswitch which automatically dumps me on to channel B on the amp and is un-saveable as preset in the Pod.  

 

All I want is:

 

3 settings with various levels of drive in the 'British Crunch' voice on the amp.

and 2 settings with various levels of drive in the 'Modern High Gain' voice on the amp.  

 

The HD300 doesn't do that.


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#13 Ronco46

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 02:33 PM

Hello everybody,

regarding HD500 and DT25 controls, I have both devices with their latest firmware, so I can control them with their respective software "Line6 HD500 Edit" and "DT Edit" (non official). Questions:

- Doesn't HD500 Edit controls EVERY function on the DT25?

- Is there any control only possible with "DT Edit" and not with "HD500 Edit"?

- How can I control Amp built-in Reverb, on HD500 Edit?

- What's the best way for combined use of Volume knobs and Master knobs?

- DT Edit has separate topologies for Preamps and for Power amps... How does that work (HD500 Edit has only one switch for topologies).

I'd appreciate if some of you could clarify me on some of these items.

Thank you for your time

 

Miguel


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#14 Crusty_Old_Rocker

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Posted 16 August 2013 - 03:21 AM

Or is there a "DT25" amp model available that can be downloaded?  Related to this, is there a way to change the amp settings using the effects buttons?  One would think that all this would be possible through the HD Link connection.

 

The easiest way to put this is that there is no such thing as a DT amp tone.  It has no tone of it's own.  It has an analogue power amp that has many characteristics that can be changed but all of the tone stacks (in the pre amp) all come from modelled amps.

 

You can use MIDI and the HD500 as a MIDI controller to do what you want.  But that's much more difficult than building a patch, copying it and then altering the copies to give you the changes in the power amp configurations.  But you need ro be aware that some of those changes will be heard because they involve physically switching circuits using relays in the amp.  The best way to manage this is by using multiple DT amps and switch from one to another using the L6LINK.

 

Cheers,

 

Crusty


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#15 MAP70

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Posted 17 January 2014 - 12:57 PM

I am too interested in a DT series amp. Not sure whether to get a 25 or a 50 yet but I am looking a MIDI pedal.. it is just hard trying to find a pedal to send multiple CC messages on a single button. Talking with tech, you can get a POD HD500 and make the preset just an amp model and not use any of the effects with I really don't want to use anyway...

 

Anyone found a good MIDI footswitch that doesn't break the bank that can do multiple CC messages??

 

Thanks!

 

Mark


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#16 phil_m

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Posted 17 January 2014 - 01:00 PM

Anyone found a good MIDI footswitch that doesn't break the bank that can do multiple CC messages??

 

You can assign up to 4 PC and 8 CC messages per preset with this controller:

 

http://www.peak2005....ller-ver20.html


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#17 ColonelForbin

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Posted 17 January 2014 - 01:28 PM

The subtle specifics of how the DT25/50 and the HD500 communicate make this connection different from any other amp you can plug into. When L6Linked, the HD500 triggers analog switch, relay and power configuration changes within the Bogner portion of the DT25/50.

 

As far as the actual amp modelling goes, when linked, you are using modeled "preamp" portions of the  tone stacks and drives, prior to the tube and power stages.

 

So, any patch that you have on the HD500 which changes typology (which can be specified in your patch editing using the HD500 software) should let you control most of the variations you are asking about - if I understand your question properly.

 

IE, you can tell the amp to switch from pentode to triode using patch changes on the HD500, and it's not modeling those characteristics anymore, it's actually (in the analog realm of the amp) switching power configurations. Same for the class A to A/B, and the other power amp related choices. There are some sag settings in the HD500 edit, which I believe also control internal, physical relays in the DT portion of things.


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#18 ColonelForbin

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Posted 17 January 2014 - 01:36 PM

"The tones in the Pod do not match the tones in the amp."

 

The key seems to be build your HD500 patches for use with DT25/50 via Link by choosing the "PRE" models of the amps you like. Within the patch on the HD500, you should be able to dial in identical versions of the "PRE" model embedded in the DT. From what I have read, the recent firmware update to the DT adds all the HD500 models into the DT, so in theory you can access them all from either place. The key would be:

 

1.) use PRE amp versions so there is no cabinet, mic, or power amp modelling occuring in the digital realm. The PRE versions are tone stack only, and they feed before the power amp versions.

 

2.) make sure any setting options are also matched. If you patch specifies PENTODE, but the amp only setting was TRIODE, that will sound different. Also dig into the deeper HD500 settings, concerning typology, sag, class A, A/B, etc. None of those things should be modeled, they should all be occuring as a result of the analog (Bogner) portion of the amp's processing, in order to 'match' the sounds. You may also need to look at the variations in channel level, master level, etc.

 

It's worth noting, that despite these choices being controlled by the HD500 via the patch building, the actual tone is being generated by the Bogner portion of the DT, as controlled by the Line6 brain.

 

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#19 ColonelForbin

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Posted 17 January 2014 - 02:34 PM

I occurred to me when reading another post posing a similar variation of this question, that the HD models exclude the Preamp models which were offered in the X3. An ideal solution would be to have HD models of those preamps, which would engage the L6Link > Dt25/50 in much the same way as the current rig is designed, except for perhaps forcing a 'Studio/Direct' type mode when using Variax acoustic models in tandem with (the currently does not exist) selection of HD preamps. IE, these, but for the HD500 / DT series:

 

POD X3 Amp Models based on*:

  • L6 Piezacoustic 2
  • L6 Tube Instrument Preamp

POD X3 Vintage and Modern Preamp Models based on*:

  • API® 512c with API® 550b EQ
  • Neve 1073
  • Avalon Vt737
  • Requisite Y7
  • L6 Solid State Console
  • L6 Lo-Fi

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#20 MAP70

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Posted 17 January 2014 - 08:02 PM

The subtle specifics of how the DT25/50 and the HD500 communicate make this connection different from any other amp you can plug into. When L6Linked, the HD500 triggers analog switch, relay and power configuration changes within the Bogner portion of the DT25/50.

 

As far as the actual amp modelling goes, when linked, you are using modeled "preamp" portions of the  tone stacks and drives, prior to the tube and power stages.

 

So, any patch that you have on the HD500 which changes typology (which can be specified in your patch editing using the HD500 software) should let you control most of the variations you are asking about - if I understand your question properly.

 

IE, you can tell the amp to switch from pentode to triode using patch changes on the HD500, and it's not modeling those characteristics anymore, it's actually (in the analog realm of the amp) switching power configurations. Same for the class A to A/B, and the other power amp related choices. There are some sag settings in the HD500 edit, which I believe also control internal, physical relays in the DT portion of things.

 

 

Good to know... The reason I wanted to go MIDI was not to use any of the effects on the HD500.. so unless I grab one real cheap I will probably go with the PEAK MIDI pedal...

 

 

Mark


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#21 aeugle

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Posted 17 January 2014 - 11:50 PM

The tones are different.

'Using pre models does not automatically turn off cabinet and mic simulation.

There is no statement from L6 and from the expert what exactly matches the DT25. 


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#22 ColonelForbin

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Posted 18 January 2014 - 10:16 AM

Good to know... The reason I wanted to go MIDI was not to use any of the effects on the HD500.. so unless I grab one real cheap I will probably go with the PEAK MIDI pedal...

This actually explains it pretty well, in a far more succinct manner - regarding how the analog switches are controlled by the POD, and what types of power amp switching is available. I didn't realize there was a feature on the DT50, that is not offered on the DT25 for instance :

 

http://line6.com/dtv2update/

 

Variable 12AX7 Boost (DT50 only)

You can now set the 12AX7 boost per amp model. In earlier DT50 firmware versions, some amps were boosted, some were not—now you have the option to set each one however you like.

 

As far as MIDI goes, this is probably a good place to look:

 

DT25 [MIDI]:

http://line6.com/med...evA_English.pdf

 

DT50 [MIDI]:

http://line6.com/med...evA_English.pdf


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#23 TheRealZap

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Posted 18 January 2014 - 10:34 AM

not entirely true... the feature exists on a DT25... its just solid state...

the DT50 boost is done via an additional tube.

 

 I didn't realize there was a feature on the DT50, that is not offered on the DT25 for instance :

 

http://line6.com/dtv2update/

 

Variable 12AX7 Boost (DT50 only)

You can now set the 12AX7 boost per amp model. In earlier DT50 firmware versions, some amps were boosted, some were not—now you have the option to set each one however you like.


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#24 MAP70

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Posted 18 January 2014 - 11:32 AM

not entirely true... the feature exists on a DT25... its just solid state...

the DT50 boost is done via an additional tube.

 

This is why I keep flip flopping on the DT 50 vs DT 25... I like the small footprint of the 25 to amp weight, my current Marshall is a 30th Anniversary 1x12 that weights almost 80lbs... so getting a DT50 will save only 10lbs or so (I am still on the fence of a 1x2 vs a 212 of the DT50). I would rather stay MORE tube than less tube.. but will that tube boost REALLY affect the sound that much.. I think the DT25 would be fine for gigging small bars and stuff where this is nothing on the PA but vocals...

 

I think the Peak MIDI is the way to go for me.... but choosing between the DT25 (head and cab) and the DT50 combo (1x2 or 212???? grr).. is my issue I think now..

 

Any ideas??

 

Mark


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#25 ColonelForbin

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Posted 18 January 2014 - 12:58 PM

This is why I keep flip flopping on the DT 50 vs DT 25... I like the small footprint of the 25 to amp weight,  choosing between the DT25 (head and cab) and the DT50 combo (1x2 or 212???? grr).. is my issue I think now.. Any ideas??

 

 

 

I ended up narrowing it down to the DT25 head+cab or the DT25 1x12 combo, and went with the DT25 1x12 combo. I hadn't considered a few subtle details, that ultimately led me to the decision I made.

 

1.) Closed back or open back? The head+cab is a CLOSED back extension cabinet. The combo is OPEN back. Also, the extension cabinet can be added to the 1x12 combo for more speakers / volume, etc, thus pairing the open back sound with the closed back sound.

 

2.) Speakers: if you want the DT50, the options get interesting with the 2x12, because it's two different types of speakers. [DT50 212:-1x12" Celestion® custom G12H90 speaker; -1x12" Celestion Vintage 30 speaker]

 

3.) as you mentioned, the weight! The DT25 1x12 is heavy, but not terrible. I remember my old band, the guy had a monster Egnater. Heaviest combo amp I've ever had to lift. I could barely pick this thing up. And I used to mess up my back lifting my bass gear. Heavy amps, if you have to lug them around yourself, can be brutal on your vertebrae.

 

4.) and in terms of the actual tubes, I don't know enough to describe why this matters (of if it does at all), but the DT50 uses EL34's and the DT25 uses EL84's

 

5.) design and look- the tone controls, volume, etc on the DT25 combo 1x12 are on the top of the amp. The DT50's and the head all have the controls on the front face.

 

Personally, now that I have one DT25, I want another one! so I can run the stereo rig using the L6Link from the HD500.


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#26 MAP70

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Posted 18 January 2014 - 02:39 PM

I ended up narrowing it down to the DT25 head+cab or the DT25 1x12 combo, and went with the DT25 1x12 combo. I hadn't considered a few subtle details, that ultimately led me to the decision I made.

 

1.) Closed back or open back? The head+cab is a CLOSED back extension cabinet. The combo is OPEN back. Also, the extension cabinet can be added to the 1x12 combo for more speakers / volume, etc, thus pairing the open back sound with the closed back sound.

 

2.) Speakers: if you want the DT50, the options get interesting with the 2x12, because it's two different types of speakers. [DT50 212:-1x12" Celestion® custom G12H90 speaker; -1x12" Celestion Vintage 30 speaker]

 

3.) as you mentioned, the weight! The DT25 1x12 is heavy, but not terrible. I remember my old band, the guy had a monster Egnater. Heaviest combo amp I've ever had to lift. I could barely pick this thing up. And I used to mess up my back lifting my bass gear. Heavy amps, if you have to lug them around yourself, can be brutal on your vertebrae.

 

4.) and in terms of the actual tubes, I don't know enough to describe why this matters (of if it does at all), but the DT50 uses EL34's and the DT25 uses EL84's

 

5.) design and look- the tone controls, volume, etc on the DT25 combo 1x12 are on the top of the amp. The DT50's and the head all have the controls on the front face.

 

Personally, now that I have one DT25, I want another one! so I can run the stereo rig using the L6Link from the HD500.

 

I too was wondering about the open/closed back situation with the combo or head. I do like controls on the front and not on top, much easier when playing out.. At home it's not much of an issue..

 

As far as tubes go:

 

EL-84: are more upper mid focused tubes. EL-84s break up much quicker than EL-34s and they have more of a compressed and spongier sort of feel. Small bottle, low wattage, easy breakup, bright, chimey. 1 pair =15-20watts.
 
EL-34: are big tubes with a lot of volume and a lot of headroom. Harder to breakup at lower volumes. Big bottle, more headroom, more bass, more thick mid voicing, warm. 1 pair=40-60watts
 
So the EL-84 is not necessarily a bad choice. they will breakup quicker and give you more of that power stage breakup.. I know my Marshall which is 100W in a 1x12 and takes a fair amount of volume (sometimes too much, if that is possible) to break up. 
 
The DT-25 Head and Cabinet make it easier to transport I would think... I wish they did an open back extension cab as well. A closed-back cab will yield a punchier, more mid-range structured tone with crisp projection and definition, and open-back cabs will provide a more organic sound with greater ambiance.
 
Have you gigged out with the DT25?? If so, how was the amount of power on tap, headroom in cleans would be the only thing I could think could be an issue..
 
Thanks
 
Mark

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#27 talwilkins

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Posted 18 January 2014 - 03:13 PM

 I think the DT25 would be fine for gigging small bars and stuff where this is nothing on the PA but vocals...

 

The DT-25 Works fine fore larger stages as well.

Everything gets miked and It's loud enough for on stage monitoring.

In my experience anyway.


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#28 MAP70

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Posted 18 January 2014 - 04:14 PM

The DT-25 Works fine fore larger stages as well.

Everything gets miked and It's loud enough for on stage monitoring.

In my experience anyway.

'

Sounds like it's the DT25 for me.. now just have to decide between combo and head + cab versions...

 

Mark


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#29 geppert

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Posted 18 January 2014 - 08:44 PM

Personally I much prefer the head/cab version. The closed back cab is so much "tighter", plus you get the bonus of breaking up the weight. I also (eventually) ended up with with 2 cabs. The stack of 2 cabs plus head is really nice especially if you use a beam blocker in at least one cab.


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#30 MAP70

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Posted 20 January 2014 - 06:32 PM

Personally I much prefer the head/cab version. The closed back cab is so much "tighter", plus you get the bonus of breaking up the weight. I also (eventually) ended up with with 2 cabs. The stack of 2 cabs plus head is really nice especially if you use a beam blocker in at least one cab.

 

I am still going back and forth between the DT25 head+cab and a DT50 1x12 and a 2x12 extra cab (from another manufacturer)... its a hard decision...


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