These forums are read only, please use our new forums here.

Main :: Spider Valve



MKII 112 - Second Impressions
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2009-10-15 08:13:46

I just got done giving the stock amp a good run through at volume.  Here's what my ear is hearing:

This is not simply a MKI with better effects, which are great by the way and a far cry better than the MKI.  The amp models have been reworked, and in some cases, drastically.  In general, the tone controls seem to have even more effect on most models.  Almost every model, at volume, has been rid of the icepick highs that were, to my ears, the overall character of the MKI with the V30.  This has been replaced with a slightly added emphasis on the midrange.  I wish I had a stock MKI to compare this to side by side, so I am just going from memory.  But to me the difference is very noticable.  In fact, the V30 can get downright honky at higher settings of the mid control.  The low end can still get flubby/farty on the wrong settings, so that could stand some tightening up.  I'm still going to go with a G12K-100 which should tighten the low end and smooth out any extreme mid honk.  Also, the springs on my tube retainers rattle unmercilessly against the glass when I strike my open D string.  They're going to come off.

Specifics about amp models that have changed:

The Metal Blue, which has long been a staple of mine for higher gain Marshall type tones, has changed.  Depending on your perspective, for the better or worse.  The mid control, which changes the distortion character from a more focused class A type tone at min, to a more modern high gain tone at mid, to a loose fuzz tone at max, is far more sensitive than it was on the MKI and has increased range. Also note, it seems to me that the description of the mid control is reversed in the manual because it says the exact opposite of what I just did.  The gain range is also expanded in both directions.  Now, pretty much anything before noon results in what sounds to me like a JCM800 at moderate gain.  Very punchy and smooth with a restrained top end.  The tone starts getting some hair on it as you increase the drive  to 12:00.  To me, the gain is unusable much past 1:00 with a hot bridge humbucker.  I was initially very disappointed with this model in some respects because in essence, my go-to tone wasn't to be found here anymore, but at least there was new territory that sounded very good.

Then I started stepping out of my box.  Insane Blue.  It's not quite so insane anymore.  Again, expanded range on the gain control.  On the MKI, anything but minimum gain resulted in screaming distortion.  Not so on the MKII.  Up to about 10:30 or so it was still very manageable.  And guess what?  My Metal Blue tone is here now.  In the Insane Blue model.  But it sounds even better because there's a usable mid control.  I'd experimented with Insane Blue on both MKI's to no avail.  But on the MKII this is now a usable model for me.  Nay, not just usable.  Really great sounding.  The gain range makes it suitable for everything from a nice rock crunch to metal territory.  And SMOOTH.  This has singing lead qualities if you want them.  There's hair here, but it is GOOD hair.  Moderate, usable sizzle.  Not fizz.  I am really digging Insane Blue.

Metal Amber?  Insane Amber?  On the MKI, I could tolerate these with the K-100 but not with the V30.  Icepicky mess there.  But on the MKII these seem to have lost the icepick just as all the other models have and have a usable top end even at higher treble settings.  Actually, I could get into these tones also, more so the Metal Amber.  That model with single coils has a nice glassy crunch.

Crunch Amber naturally has that Plexi bark...duh.  With gain at 12 or below, it is very articulate.  Raking a chord, you can hear every note clearly but still have a great crunch going on.  I think Eric Johnson or Joe Bonamassa.  Good tones to be had here also.  Although both this model and the Hi Gain Amber sound maybe just a little too barky/honky with the V30.  The K-100 will put this back where I like it.

I'm not going to dwell on the mid gain stuff other than to say that the AC30TB sounds great (Class A Amber), maybe even better than the MKI did.  There are some other new offerings there too that sound good, but I will have to explore later.

Cleans are fantastic.  I don't know if it's me, but I think the Clean Amber has been reworked because it now sounds a lot more like the clean sounds I was getting from the MKI on Crunch Amber at low gain.  I could play that clean sound for days.  Very enjoyable.

To wind up here, I still have a lot of work to do but I think the MKII may be a keeper.  We'll see for sure what happens after the speaker change but I don't know any other amps in this range that have it going on on so many different fronts at the same time.  Effects are really good, amp models sound great, and it's a single package.  For under $1000 what else is there?  Vypyr?  Sorry, not in the same league.  Will post again after the speaker change, and I might even include some video footage.  Until next time!



Re: MKII 112 - Second Impressions
by bonedaddio on 2009-10-15 08:23:22

Karl: I should of waited 10 minutes to post my questions to your first MKII thread... I'll be waiting to hear any other info about the MKII. Thinking...

Thanks for reporting back to us all so quickly. Your latest info leans me back towards the MKII and away from the Marshall Haze 40watt... Sigh. I have till the 20th to make a decision...

Thanks!



Re: MKII 112 - Second Impressions
by fester2000 on 2009-10-15 08:30:01

Another great review from the Houseknecht-meister!  Dang, I really wish I had the cash to pick up the HD100mkII and a good Avatar cab to go with it.  Not that I'm complaining, of course -- my new toys are supposed to be delivered today!!!

Cheers,

Fester2k



Re: MKII 112 - Second Impressions
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2009-10-15 08:52:37

So, further playing at volume...I'm getting a buzz/rattle from the back of the cab even after taking the tube retainer springs off.  Pushing my hand against the middle of the baffle in the back gets rid of it for the most part.  I tried turning screws a little tighter but it still buzzes.  I'm starting to wonder about this 3/4 closed design.  If it can't handle the bass from a V30, it sure won't handle the K-100.  Hmmm.

Amp sounds lovely in all other respects.



Re: MKII 112 - Second Impressions
by fester2000 on 2009-10-15 08:56:11

Karl_Houseknecht wrote:

So, further playing at volume...I'm getting a buzz/rattle from the back of the cab even after taking the tube retainer springs off.  Pushing my hand against the middle of the baffle in the back gets rid of it for the most part.  I tried turning screws a little tighter but it still buzzes.  I'm starting to wonder about this 3/4 closed design.  If it can't handle the bass from a V30, it sure won't handle the K-100.  Hmmm.

Amp sounds lovely in all other respects.

More support for the HD100mkII, eh? 

Cheers,

Fester2k



Re: MKII 112 - Second Impressions
by cgtrox on 2009-10-15 09:10:29

Good review bro, no surprise there and thanks man. I am gonna go play one this weekend and check the Divided by Thirteen model. Good to hear they fied the icepick thing, now I really wanna hear this thing in person!

cgtrox



Re: MKII 112 - Second Impressions
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2009-10-15 11:27:26

Well folks, as great as this amp does sound, that rattle/vibration from the back of the cab is making me send it back to the retailer.  I don't know if it's just this particular combo or if this is an endemic problem.  I am going to find some different MKII combos at local retailers and test them out before either buying or ordering another.  But this one didn't pass the gig volume test in regards to nearly shaking itself apart.  If I put the looper on and had it keep playing, I could go around to the back of the amp and push hard on the back panel, and the vibration/rattle would quiet down considerably.  And I could feel the cab really thrumming.  The speaker is really pushing a lot of air against that back and it's only supported on three sides.



Re: MKII 112 - Second Impressions
by sofnwhat on 2009-10-15 12:33:03

That's too bad, but somewhat typical. L6 seems to have issues right out the gate with new products.



Re: MKII 112 - Second Impressions
by jws1982 on 2009-10-15 13:27:00

I just picked up a 212 today.  I was nervous because I loved the one I played, but the one I took home was new in the box.  I'm close to GC though, so I can take it right back if something's wrong.



Re: MKII 112 - Second Impressions
by spaceatl on 2009-10-15 14:11:48

Nice review...Dang it, I just knew this amp was going to rock!



Re: MKII 112 - Second Impressions
by markshu on 2009-10-15 15:50:29

That's a great initial review Karl, sorry about your problem with the rattle. Hopefully you just got a bad one. Do you notice an increase in low end or more say "cabinet coloration" from the 3/4 closed back? I'm really glad to hear they've resolved the "ice pick" issue. I've done some mods just like a lot of you but never really got rid of that to my liking. The better overall tone and amp models is what will really sell me on the MKII as opposed to the effects. Better efx will just be icing on the cake! NOW I WANT ONE!!!! 



Re: MKII 112 - Second Impressions
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2009-10-15 16:13:17

Well, certainly seems like there was more low end.  The 3/4 closed back really did add something.  But I'm guessing the icepick had components in both the amp models and in the cab/speaker.  I'd certainly be the first one to say if it was there, and it wasn't.  That's a good thing.



Re: MKII 112 - Second Impressions
by Apologist on 2009-10-15 17:13:45

I know this may not help because I have the HD100 MKII but I get no rattle other than windows because its insanely loud even between 30-50% volume.

One thing I did notice about some of the gain models is that riffs are very clear and punchy but sometimes the chords sound mushy or too saggy but Im still playing with different tones I've had to work so much lately I haven't had a chance to do much other than go through all the presets once and then dink around with some of the new models.

I did note that it is much easier and quicker to dial in "that" gotcha kinda tone where you say whoa thats nice ...also the sustain seems to have been improved glad I traded now to sell gear.



Re: MKII 112 - Second Impressions
by nprenger on 2009-10-15 18:19:05

So... Has anybody cracked one open to see if the Strymon SVpre will drop in?

nprenger



Re: MKII 112 - Second Impressions
by GoD_X on 2009-10-15 18:21:20

the thing is does it need the SVPre..???



Re: MKII 112 - Second Impressions
by markshu on 2009-10-15 18:29:09

I'm also curious if they reworked any part of the power section. Wondering if this could have something to do with less ice pick as well. I did notice the master volume and presence controls are reversed. Not that this means much but they obviously did a bit of redesigning even if that's all it was.



Re: MKII 112 - Second Impressions
by Apologist on 2009-10-15 18:41:04

Or it could be they reversed them because when adjusting delay a few moments ago I had to spin preset edit nob and accidentally bumped presence nob to a point that would've awoken corpses in a cemetery a few miles away had it been the master volume I had hit.

By the way I'm not just in love with both new high gain models but both Insane models too ....Amber punch n crunch and blue smooth beefy with bite ...and it does seem as if they dialed back the levels of gain a tad which is fine who needs Insane with max gain?



Re: MKII 112 - Second Impressions
by cgtrox on 2009-10-15 19:03:36

Well, I played one this afternoon and just by looking at the front panel it doesn't look like there's a lot of room on the there. Everything is so close together, it's almost crowded!

cgtrox



Re: MKII 112 - Second Impressions
by cgtrox on 2009-10-15 19:58:02

I did get to play one today, the 112. I didn't have a lot of time with it but it really is different. I didn't even tap the effects, I was only after the amp models for now. I quickly spun thru the presets one time, they did fix the levels, whew! I landed on one with a very nice thick and beefy clean tone, it sounded like an old school Hiwatt 100 cranked but still squeaky clean. Very nice! Then I just went to the user presets and hit the Hi Gain amp, hmmm. Maybe I'm just used to the SV Pre but I wasn't getting as much saturation or bite, or maybe it was different kind of bite? Just not as agressive? Hard to explain, but it isn't something that I couldn't get right now on my SV set to ORANGE. Maybe cuz of the SV Pre? I can't remember if it was Blue or Amber but it was different. Then I tried one of the Mesas, very big, very fat low end! Not really a fan of that sound anyway. I wish I had the menu of amps with me so I could see what I'm supposed to be hearing. They did fix the cab a little, no more ice pick. In fact, maybe that's what I'm missing here, is it a fix or a miss? I couldn't really hear as good as I wanted to, some kid a few amps down was attempting to play a Metallica song, LOUDLY. I'm off tomorrow so I am gonna take it into the PA room in the back and crank it a little and write down the amps so I'll know where I'm at. Another thing I did notice was the amp does react better with the guitar volume. I guess they did do some work on the JFET. As far as getting one, hmmm. I really like my SV right now and I can get any sound I heard (or even better) on it vs. the MKII I played today as far as amps go. I mean, I already have all of my sounds down. But, in all fairness I have to go deeper on this thing. The only plus I see right now would be having the effects built-in and just having to use my shortboard! Man this is killing me!!! So close but yet so far.....

cgtrox



Re: MKII 112 - Second Impressions
by jws1982 on 2009-10-15 21:14:22

So I got my new mkii 212 home, and have been using it all night.  I've been attempting to recreate my custom tones from my current SV 212 on the mkii.  So far, I can only get the cleaner tones to sound as good or better.  All of the higher gain models aren't as pleasing.  I spent lots of time at GC with the new amp, and enjoyed it there.  However, I just can't get the sounds out of the higher gain models that I get from my original SV.  It sucks too, because the other models, new effects, and extra controls are just great.

Karl mentioned that his signature tone from the metal blue on the original SV can't be recreated using the same model on the mkii.  Same situation for me.  He said he found a great tone from the insane blue to replace it, but I can't get what I need out of it.

I'm gonna give it a few more days, but I'll be taking it back if I can't get my custom sounds, which I use almost daily, to sound as good as they do on the original SV.

Here's a sample of my blue metal sound from the original, trying to recreate that sound on the MKii, and a stereo sample of them both.  I use a fender tele on the bridge pickup.  Notice how the original has so much more 'life' in the tone.  Also, the sound of the guitar really shines through.  The mkii seems to be very flat and generic sounding.  The tone of the guitar feels like it's taken completely out.  I have the treble setting higher on the mkii than the original as well.  Both sounds were recorded using the direct outs (studio).



Re: MKII 112 - Second Impressions
by bonedaddio on 2009-10-15 23:14:53

Thanks for posting the clips... nice progression. I'd have to say better keep the Mark I... I really got negative pleasure from the MK II clip's tone. I'm really thinking about braving the Haze 40 Watt. My SV MK1 112 sounds good (with an HT Dual pedal in front) but it's just not got "it". Based on your excellent comparison clips, the MK II might not have "it" either!



Re: MKII 112 - Second Impressions
by nprenger on 2009-10-16 03:04:59

the thing is does it need the SVPre..???


The MKI didn't "need" it, but it sure did make it better. It might do the same for the MKII.

nprenger



Re: MKII 112 - Second Impressions
by mtrash14 on 2009-10-16 04:05:18

jws1982 wrote:

So I got my new mkii 212 home, and have been using it all night.  I've been attempting to recreate my custom tones from my current SV 212 on the mkii.  So far, I can only get the cleaner tones to sound as good or better.  All of the higher gain models aren't as pleasing.  I spent lots of time at GC with the new amp, and enjoyed it there.  However, I just can't get the sounds out of the higher gain models that I get from my original SV.  It sucks too, because the other models, new effects, and extra controls are just great.

Karl mentioned that his signature tone from the metal blue on the original SV can't be recreated using the same model on the mkii.  Same situation for me.  He said he found a great tone from the insane blue to replace it, but I can't get what I need out of it.

I'm gonna give it a few more days, but I'll be taking it back if I can't get my custom sounds, which I use almost daily, to sound as good as they do on the original SV.

Here's a sample of my blue metal sound from the original, trying to recreate that sound on the MKii, and a stereo sample of them both.  I use a fender tele on the bridge pickup.  Notice how the original has so much more 'life' in the tone.  Also, the sound of the guitar really shines through.  The mkii seems to be very flat and generic sounding.  The tone of the guitar feels like it's taken completely out.  I have the treble setting higher on the mkii than the original as well.  Both sounds were recorded using the direct outs (studio).

Nice playing.  Thanks for putting up the sample clips!!!  

I say take the MKII back.  Far better tone from the original (IMO).

Again, thanks for the comparison.

MT



Re: MKII 112 - Second Impressions
by lenunez2 on 2009-10-16 05:38:20

Just goes to show how subjective tone is. I preferred the MkII clips. To me, the top end of the original seemed a little fizzy/harsh.



Re: MKII 112 - Second Impressions
by bonedaddio on 2009-10-16 05:48:14

That's kind of funny, CGTROX, I used the phrase "So close yet so far" in a private email to Karl at close to the same time, discussing the MKII, apparently other people feel that way based on the sound samples and responses in this thread. Karl has some interesting real experience re: the MKII. I'll defer to him.

I'm really interested in your take on this amp; I don't think I'll be hearing one around here soon.



Re: MKII 112 - Second Impressions
by phil_m on 2009-10-16 06:01:55

It's not really quite fair to compare the sound of a brand new amp with brand spankin' new speakers to an amp that's several years old with speakers with significant playing time on them, is it?  It seems to me that some of the missing "life" you're talking about could easily be attributed to the speakers not being broken in.



Re: MKII 112 - Second Impressions
by Apologist on 2009-10-16 06:04:11

LOL ... ya me too ..the MKII sound tighter and thicker ..punchier and more musically appealing to the ear probably to the change in high mids that seems to be the change those who are playing there's are noticing.

The original sounded crunchier but I notice, (though I don't know JWS's exact settings) that I can get closer to his original tone by removing a touch of treble and instead increasing Presence ...it adds a different kind of brightness that gets that crunch that on some amp models you just cant acheive using the treble knob. But I found that to be true of the first SV as well ... but then perhaps it could be do to me using the HD100 MKII with a Line 6 4x12 who knows?

Of course the problem with increasing presence is its universal which means all other tones would have to adapt to new presence setting ...

Either way I'm in love with my MKII and can't wait for MF to ship my UX1 so I can check out recordings via the XLR out.

BTW has anyone else tried using backwards delay with IH smart harmony? Lol wow talk about bizarre very fun.



Re: MKII 112 - Second Impressions
by Apologist on 2009-10-16 06:05:37

He used direct outs and there's a differance but that's a good point to take into consideration.

BTW JWS that was a nice progression and actually the two tones sound nice together.

I had my wife listen and she like the MKII better as well ...so who knows ..???



Re: MKII 112 - Second Impressions
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2009-10-16 06:11:04

phil_m wrote:

It's not really quite fair to compare the sound of a brand new amp with brand spankin' new speakers to an amp that's several years old with speakers with significant playing time on them, is it?  It seems to me that some of the missing "life" you're talking about could easily be attributed to the speakers not being broken in.

Depends on what he means by "life".  I think the good news in what I heard from my amp was that the icepick was gone.  Even with a new V30 in there.  The one thing I did do was to record a clean loop passage and let the thing play, kinda loudly, in another room for a good 45 minutes, sorta following Celestion's guide for breaking in the speaker quickly.  It won't get it all the way there, that takes months, but it should have gotten it 90% there.

Hey, how's that Renegade doing for you?  Fester just got one too.  That's a cool amp for sure.



Re: MKII 112 - Second Impressions
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2009-10-16 06:21:38

Apologist wrote:

He used direct outs and there's a differance

Ahhhh.....I see now.  I thought it had been mic'd up.  I'm not a fan of either amp's direct outs.  I tried the direct out yesterday to see if I could get a decent recording and it just did not have the punch that even my Red Box has, no matter what mode I put it in.  Would have prefered to hear a mic'd sample from each.

The big differences between the two amps that I hear are:

1.  Lack of icepick on the MKII.  Good job, Line6.

2.  A honky tendency on the mids on the MKII.  I don't know if this is a result of removing the icepick, closing up the back more, a slight overcompensation in the models, or all three combined.  But you have to be careful on some of the models not to go crazy on the mids.  My gut feeling is this was a response to a lot of us saying we needed external EQ, so Line6 adjusted the models so that the tone stack is more dynamic.  That certainly seems to be true because I noticed an increased response from the tone controls on just about every model.



Re: MKII 112 - Second Impressions
by jws1982 on 2009-10-16 06:41:05

Yeah, 'life' is a pretty generic tone description.  What I mean is that the original tone feels like it has more volume dynamics, more layers, and more transparency.  The MKii tone, to me, feels lacking in these three areas.

I don't remember my exact settings right now, but they're somewhere close to this.  Presence doesn't affect the tone of the direct outs in studio mode.

Original:     Blue Metal, Drive - 2:00, Bass - 12:30, Mid - 2:00, Treble - 9:30, Reverb: 8:30

MKii:     Blue Metal, Drive - 2:00, Bass - 12:30, Mid - 2:30 Treble - 12:00, Reverb: 8:30 (plate)

And yep, the MKii speakers are about as stiff as possible right now, though I used the direct out for the recordings earlier.  I'm going to run the MKii pre-amp to the power amp and speakers of my original tonight, and vice versa, to see what happens.   Should be interesting.  If I get some time tonight to turn it up loud, I'll post some mic'ed clips.

Anyone have a specific patch or tone you want to hear/compare?



Re: MKII 112 - Second Impressions
by cgtrox on 2009-10-16 07:09:51

I'm going back in today to GC and focus on a few amp models only. More than likely I'm gonna keep my original SV with the SV Pre in it. I'm getting that spongy, chewy compressed distortion that I love so much with it. Also gets that VH "glass clink" in there that makes it sound alive. I liked the MKII clip Jason posted up there but that's the direct out, at least that sounds better! I would like to hear a comparison of the Insane Blue models. Right now I'm using the Insane Blue with the drive set very low and the SV Pre set on ORANGE. That's my main lead and rythm heavy sound. Like I said, I already have all of my sounds down with the SV the way it is. Which is why I wanna try to see if I can duplicate it on the MKII with no mods.

I'm goin' in....

cgtrox



Re: MKII 112 - Second Impressions
by jws1982 on 2009-10-16 17:55:09

Here's samples of the AC30 models from each spider valve.  All controls are set to noon. No reverb/effects.  Mic'ed clips are using an SM57 close-mic'ed slightly off-axis (~20 degrees).  Direct out clips have the MKii set to Studio.

Both of these models sound very good.  Notice how the MKii model has some compression built-in.



Re: MKII 112 - Second Impressions
by Apologist on 2009-10-16 19:02:37

Using settings you posted I was able to get closer to your original SV tone by using Metal Amber rather than Blue ..using settings you listed for the MKII. But that could be my particular cab I guess.



Re: MKII 112 - Second Impressions
by pikeral on 2009-10-16 20:19:46

I like the mkii clip. The section of the riff that is picked sounds more definitive and the chording section is smooth and natural sounding. The original sounds a little thin and more harsh, (IMHO). Nice riff btw. How about some clip comparison's of Insane Amber? thx for sharing



Re: MKII 112 - Second Impressions
by fester2000 on 2009-10-16 20:42:08

pikeral wrote:

I like the mkii clip. The section of the riff that is picked sounds more definitive and the chording section is smooth and natural sounding. The original sounds a little thin and more harsh, (IMHO). Nice riff btw. How about some clip comparison's of Insane Amber? thx for sharing

I assume you're referring to the SM57 only clip.  If so, I wholeheartedly agree it is way, way better than the SV mk I sm57 clip. 

Cheers,

Fester2k



Re: MKII 112 - Second Impressions
by pikeral on 2009-10-16 21:08:59

I was talking about the first 2 comparisons posted, the Blue Metal clips. Yes, the SM57 mkii sounds the best out of the AC30 clips.



Re: MKII 112 - Second Impressions
by jws1982 on 2009-10-16 21:42:08

Quick note on the AC30 clips.  After recording them, I did notice that I had the drive slightly lower on the mkii.

I'll post some insane amber models soon.  It'll just be direct outs though, seeing as I can't get loud right now.  The studio outs are still a good representation though.



Re: MKII 112 - Second Impressions
by jws1982 on 2009-10-16 22:10:53

Here you go.  Insane Amber.  Drive at 75% on the mkii, 50% on the original.  Everything else at noon, no effects. The individual tracks are raw from the direct outs.  The stereo track with both samples has a 4th-order high-pass at 85Hz and some gentle compression.  MKii is on the left.

Guitar is a Gibson Les Paul Traditional Pro, bridge pickup (BurstBucker 3).



Re: MKII 112 - Second Impressions
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2009-10-17 06:10:40

I like the MKII sample between those Insane Amber clips.  The Insane models really seem to be where my high gain tones live on the MKII now.  Still a little disappointed with the Metal Blue model because that and the Insane seem a little more compressed than they used to be.  It's probably a result of taking that top end off.  I just wonder if in doing so, they didn't take a little too much out?

My amp got shipped back yesterday.  I'm going to do some serious testing of store models before purchasing another.



Re: MKII 112 - Second Impressions
by Insidian on 2009-10-17 06:37:31

MKII definitely takes it on that one, for sure.



Re: MKII 112 - Second Impressions
by Apologist on 2009-10-17 06:49:54

Same: MkII clip to my ears sounds tighter and more pleasing to the ear almost as if the muddy lows and harsh highs have been filtered by harbal eq lol (for those familiar with this mastering eq) ...

I toyed around with Red Compression last night and you can get more "pronounced" for lack of a better term voicings that the highs seem to do with the SVMKI by increasing the sensitivity to around %50. Still experimenting but I like the setting that way for now.



Re: MKII 112 - Second Impressions
by pikeral on 2009-10-17 09:14:04

I'm hearing alot better sonic's coming from the mkii clips. It's too bad the baffle was shaking like that. A friend of mine just returned his SV 4/12 cab due to some serious farting issues, the jack's were popping out of the cab at gig volume, 12 o'clock w/HD100.



Re: MKII 112 - Second Impressions
by bonedaddio on 2009-10-17 09:16:00

I guess somebody's got to be the heretic... tone is SO subjective as someone else said... I'm listening to this stuff on a nice clean Onkyo power amp and a pair of Klipsch near field monitors... It's what I use to master with. I use the Klipsches because I'm old and I've lost a bit of high frequency hearing over the years, and these are a slightly brighter-than-flat set of monitors... helps with the loss so I don't send out a project that's hissy or scratchy.

When I listen to "Original_Direct.mp3", then I listen to "MKii_Direct.mp3", it's like a graphic eq was used to remove a scoop somewhere around 2-3K.

You can simulate this yourself, put both clips in "now playing" in Media Player, enable the Graphic EQ, set the clips to alternate and loop, then just turn the EQ off when the MKII clip is playing, and on when the MKI "Original" is playing... it's far from exact, if you have other software you can do this much more exactly, but you'll get the idea and really quickly if you try this method of comparison.

This is also true when you try this with the sm57 clips.

To my ancient ears, the MKII clips in comparison sound somewhat nasal and thin, and still "scratchy" which is kind of a characterisic of Line6 stuff in general. With my hearing, if it seems "scratchy" to me, it almost MUST be so!

I'm not viewing this as an improvement in any way... I'd love to get one and be able to use the Midi and the deep editing of the effects, but the FOR ME (YMMV here), the tone simply isn't there. I'll possibly keep my SV MI 112, but I'm now really serious about trying a Marshall 40 watt Haze.

My total THANK YOUS to all who've taken the time to share their impressions and sound clips with us and with me. You've saved me at least return shipping costs if not a whole lot of frustration!!

Les



Re: MKII 112 - Second Impressions
by pikeral on 2009-10-17 09:20:32

jws1982 crank that 212 up. See if there are any issue's with the back of the cab rattling and making noise? I'm thinking if Karl's was a dud and your's is fine, i might need some GAS money.



Re: MKII 112 - Second Impressions
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2009-10-17 09:27:19

pikeral wrote:

jws1982 crank that 212 up. See if there are any issue's with the back of the cab rattling and making noise? I'm thinking if Karl's was a dud and your's is fine, i might need some GAS money.

Don't forget, mine was a 112.  212 could be totally different.



Re: MKII 112 - Second Impressions
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2009-10-17 09:33:09

pikeral wrote:

A friend of mine just returned his SV 4/12 cab due to some serious farting issues, the jack's were popping out of the cab at gig volume, 12 o'clock w/HD100.

Not to knock Line6 because the SV, even though made in China, was pretty heftily constructed in the first go-around.  But for cabs, Avatar is the way to go.  Made in USA at their shop from quality wood and construction.  And they are so much less expensive than anything comparable.  I love my G412 vintage cab.  400 watts of awesome tone.

And also not to knock the direct recorded clips, because I know they're just trying to show the model differences, but you also have to understand that the cab and mic emulations are different between the two amps.  The real comparison would be to mic the cab directly.  Because I can tell you that the direct output is only a shadow of what either amp is capable of sounding like.

The bottom line is that both amps sound really good.  And if none of us had the first amp to compare it to, it'd be a real winner.  There's going to be some things we like each amp for better.  For me, some of the models on the MKI sound a little better than the MKII, but also vice-versa.  The MKII wins for effects hands down.  If I really had to choose between them it'd be the MKII.  But construction quality has become a really big deal for me.  I hope that my amp was just a fluke.



Re: MKII 112 - Second Impressions
by pikeral on 2009-10-17 09:33:44

Don't forget, mine was a 112.  212 could be totally different.

Good catch Karl. I would be going for the 212 however.



Re: MKII 112 - Second Impressions
by cgtrox on 2009-10-17 09:41:31

It does sound like they fixed the Direct Out, good! MKII hands down there.

cgtrox



Re: MKII 112 - Second Impressions
by cgtrox on 2009-10-17 09:54:14

I gotta tell you, the MKII 112 that I played vibrated like a mutha! That was with the master at about 9:00!! That new 3/4 design works for speaker efficiency (sounds great), but may be a double edged sword. Cuz it will loosen everything and anything within a three foot radius, seriously! I used to have a 100W Hiwatt bulldog 112 combo and it was loud! It had the open back like the original SV. But it didn't vibrate like this MKII does. It was as heavy as a ship anchor but it didn't vibrate like that. Maybe cab design or materials?

cgtrox



Re: MKII 112 - Second Impressions
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2009-10-17 09:59:23

cgtrox wrote:

I gotta tell you, the MKII 112 that I played vibrated like a mutha! That was with the master at about 9:00!! That new 3/4 design works for speaker efficiency (sounds great), but may be a double edged sword.

I was afraid of this.  That's two independent confirmations of this phenomenon.  Yes, my master was at 9:00 also.  With the channel volume at about 2:00.



Re: MKII 112 - Second Impressions
by cgtrox on 2009-10-17 10:01:37

Dude! Now that I remember, I would place my hand over the guitar input jack (with the cord still in) and feel some air being pushed out of it! I was palm muting an open E with my right and placing my left hand over it and there was air being pushed out! That was powerful...

cgtrox



Re: MKII 112 - Second Impressions
by cgtrox on 2009-10-17 10:07:40

Yup, same here bro. Master at 9:00 and channel volume at 1:00 or 2:00. Of course, I would like to play it in a real live band situation but even at that volume, it really should vibrate as violently as it did.

cgtrox



Re: MKII 112 - Second Impressions
by cgtrox on 2009-10-17 10:29:40

Big +1 on Avatar cabs, best bang for the buck on cabs. But, if you wanna "tune" your sealed cab from farting issues try this...

bogner-2x12-cabinet-Speakers_01.jpg

it really helps with the backlash of sound waves from multiple speaker sealed cabs. It's only a 1/4 of foam you can buy at a fabric store then stapled to the back.

cgtrox



Re: MKII 112 - Second Impressions
by fester2000 on 2009-10-17 11:01:31

Karl_Houseknecht wrote:

cgtrox wrote:

I gotta tell you, the MKII 112 that I played vibrated like a mutha! That was with the master at about 9:00!! That new 3/4 design works for speaker efficiency (sounds great), but may be a double edged sword.

I was afraid of this.  That's two independent confirmations of this phenomenon.  Yes, my master was at 9:00 also.  With the channel volume at about 2:00.

Very concerning -- I hope this is either an isolated incident (seems unlikely) or L6  can figure out how to get this fixed, and fast, b/c it looks like they've otherwise got an amazing package.

Cheers,

Fester2k



Re: MKII 112 - Second Impressions
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2009-10-17 11:09:19

fester2000 wrote:

b/c it looks like they've otherwise got an amazing package.

(In my best Beavis impression):  Hehe..hehe...they've got an amazing package...hehe...hehe



Re: MKII 112 - Second Impressions
by cgtrox on 2009-10-17 11:12:53

Yes, I did go back and play one. I only focused on the Clean and Insane models which are what I use on my MKI. I have to say, I absolutely fell in love with the Clean Blue! What a great big round clean tone! Very nice job there Line 6! It doesn't really get dirty at all and stays clean no matter how loud you get. Then I went to my "go to" sound on Insane Blue. I really liked this one a lot, too. It sounded very close to mine with the SV Pre, very clear! One thing I did notice is the gain, I could crank it all the way up still stand right in front of it, hmmm. Maybe they backed off so the effects can be added? I have the gain on mine at about 10:00 if I go further it's really insane! Like I said, I can get all of the sounds I heard on the new one with my old one. So, it looks like I'm getting the M9 for effects and be done for now.

...and the chase goes on

cgtrox



Re: MKII 112 - Second Impressions
by jws1982 on 2009-10-17 12:07:05

Oh, I have cranked it many times. It's held together great so far. The back 3/4 cover is held in by 5 screws, but it also seems to be glued in.  I removed the screws, but could not get the cover off without feeling like I was going to break it.  I'm still in limbo over switching to the mkii, so I'm not going to do anything potentially destructive yet.

On an interesting note, i ran the mkii pre to the amp/speakers of 2 different original 212's, and they sounded quite a bit better than the mkii's.  The original's pre to the mkii power/speakers sounded worse.  I tested it at low and high volumes with the same results.  The bass response from the original amp/cab using the mkii pre felt just right in my studio room.  The mkii amp/speakers sounded more harsh and dull.  Of course, this can still be attributed to speakers not broken in or tube differences.



Re: MKII 112 - Second Impressions
by Mcgill on 2009-10-17 13:10:04

Karl?  I do not know if you are willing to experiment?

Can you take the 3/4 panel off, (Open it up baby!! )  then see if you get this same "Effect" ?

I´m thinking that its the added vibration, or the Panel itself?



Re: MKII 112 - Second Impressions
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2009-10-17 13:13:09

Mcgill wrote:

Karl?  I do not know if you are willing to experiment?

I don't have the amp anymore.  It went back to the retailer.  Though I am reasonably sure that experiment would have stopped the vibration.



Re: MKII 112 - Second Impressions
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2009-10-18 15:46:23

Well, I tried two more SV MKII combos.  One at a Sam Ash and one at a Guitar Center.  Both exhibited the cab vibration problem with the master at around 9:00 and channel at 2:00.   Still a pretty quiet volume when you think about it.  I typically put it up around 10:30 or 11:00 when I've got a drummer in the room.  In the same experience as another on here, the amp vibrated so badly that I could see the printing on the amp blur.



Re: MKII 112 - Second Impressions
by cgtrox on 2009-10-18 16:38:14

Told ya man, I could barely read the amp models on the front! That's about gig level for me, maybe just a little louder. That doesn't take away from the fact that I really liked those two amp models when I played it, I hope they can fix this. Like fester said, it is a great package.

cgtrox  



Re: MKII 112 - Second Impressions
by Apologist on 2009-10-18 19:17:37

Hmmm... that sucks I imagine they must surely be acting to correct this asap?

I haven't had any issues yet with the HD100 MKII (obviously vibration wouldn't be an issue since it isn't a combo) although I coulda swore once when playing loud I heard it start to fade out for a second kinda like the opposite of how it sounds if you turn an amp on and take it off standby to quick and the volume fades in only this was a fade out:

But it was, if it did happen, it was so quick I wasn't sure what had happened or if it even had now lol. It scared me at first and I tried to replicate it but it never did happen again so maybe it was just my mind playing tricks on me??



Re: MKII 112 - Second Impressions
by ryanpaul on 2009-10-19 15:11:35

Same with me, I havent had any problems with the head, There are some AWESOME things you can find with the different amp models. Both Class A amp models and both Crunch and Hi Gain Models I have found good uses for. And I still havent had tons of time to tweak. It seems like the models are alot more distinct than the Mk1. And the effects are really great too. I think this might become my only gigging amp for awhile unless some I find some terrible flaw. One thing that does suck is the non-ability to back up patches. Hopefully they will fix that



Re: MKII 112 - Second Impressions
by mesamay2003 on 2009-10-19 15:19:57

Same with me...I am completely happy with the MKII HD...with the exception of the major issue of not being able to backup patches...if they added that feature and the amp proves to be reliable, I think it would be the perfect gigging amp. Quick to setup/tear down and sounds great with real effects capability and even midi if you need it!



Re: MKII 112 - Second Impressions
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2009-10-19 15:52:05

Oh, I'm sure the head is just fine.  It's the 112 combo we're getting on about.



Re: MKII 112 - Second Impressions
by guitargman on 2009-10-22 09:47:57

I was Finally able to sit down and put this amp up louder, and what do you know? the dreaded Buzz from the back of the 112.... .UGHHHH



Re: MKII 112 - Second Impressions
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2009-10-22 10:03:13

guitargman wrote:

I was Finally able to sit down and put this amp up louder, and what do you know? the dreaded Buzz from the back of the 112.... .UGHHHH

Was it the cab vibrating or the tube retainer springs?



Re: MKII 112 - Second Impressions
by guitargman on 2009-10-22 10:26:16

Sounds like the cab itself is vibrating. what a bummer cause i'm liking it otherwise.



Re: MKII 112 - Second Impressions
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2009-10-22 10:40:12

I'm wondering if spaceatl's idea about the "voidless" ply having some voids in it might be on target?  There could have been a bad batch of birch.  LOL!  Say that 10 times fast.



Re: MKII 112 - Second Impressions
by phil_m on 2009-10-22 11:18:23

Lousy termites...



Re: MKII 112 - Second Impressions
by jws1982 on 2009-10-22 11:34:26

This probably isn't it, but are the screws tight that are holding the speakers?  When I got mine home, two of the screws on the speakers were barely tight, almost loose.



Re: MKII 112 - Second Impressions
by guitargman on 2009-10-22 12:10:43

screws are tight. i even removed the tube casing but that didnt help. its the backboard of the amp rattling away.....when i press it, it stops vibrating.



Re: MKII 112 - Second Impressions
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2009-10-22 12:16:59

I can't believe this would have slipped by QC if it were a true design flaw.  But this is just bad stuff.  Any comment from Line6?  Are you guys looking into this?

Guitargman, what are you going to do with yours?



Re: MKII 112 - Second Impressions
by guitargman on 2009-10-22 12:42:29

i called and i have a ticket open with them so i'm having them send me another one to try but based on your posts, it prob won't make a difference. I'm hopeing it does though cause its a keeper if you ask me, i like it alot more that the SV1.



Re: MKII 112 - Second Impressions
by guitargman on 2009-10-22 12:43:19

forgot to mention that when i hold the back panel it stops..



Re: MKII 112 - Second Impressions
by halebob on 2009-10-23 03:33:19

Hi , maybe you can put in a piece of wood from the frontside to the rearside with some screws to eliminate the vibrations?

But for the 112 you must have 2 pieces of wood because the speaker is in the middle. That's simple but it works , I think.

Greetings from Germany , Frank



Re: MKII 112 - Second Impressions
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2009-10-23 03:38:22

Ideally, any brace should be in the middle.  You might be able to make something triangular that fastens to both the bottom and the back.  Or even two of them that straddle the speaker.  I'm skeptical about that approach, though.



Re: MKII 112 - Second Impressions
by halebob on 2009-10-23 03:52:48

I'm wondering did Line6 make  no tryout themselves before selling the new product ?



Re: MKII 112 - Second Impressions
by Mcgill on 2009-10-23 05:22:55

My Idea would be more like an I-Beam structure built onto the Back panel, and this only needs to be about 4 inches deep into the Amp!

I Braces for back panel.jpg

Fast free hand Drawing not using CAD. 



Re: MKII 112 - Second Impressions
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2009-10-23 05:32:10

That actually looks like a good idea, provided the top brace doesn't interfere with the transformer or tube cage.



Re: MKII 112 - Second Impressions
by bonedaddio on 2009-10-23 06:09:04

This is all good for the folks that already bought an SV 112 MkII and are insistent on keeping it, but I just don't get why I'd upgrade from a Mk1 to the SV 112 MkII for $700.00 and then have to fix a bad cabinet design (that apparently wasn't tested???!!) to get a playable amp; which DOES have awkward but deep editing of effects, but DOESN'T have editing software or allow patch backup, etc. etc. Draw your own conclusions.

The members of this forum have provided (I've read it a lot) a tremendous amount of feedback, suggestions, work-arounds etc., a lot of it appears to have been ignored by the manufacturer. If they'd looked at the SvPre users, listened to the competition's amps (especially tube amps), done some kind of upgrade along these lines, they'd have an amp that people would fight to buy, they'd be (I'd be) selling their Mk1 and buying the new one immediately.

Don't get me wrong, I like my SV112 Mk1 and don't plan to get rid of it, I've got it working nicely with a tube distortion pedal in front. BUT with a minimal design effort (like a built in SvPre preamp tube), this amp could really SOUND good. Put one side by side with a decent all tube amp (I'm using a relatively inexpensive Marshall Haze for this) and tell me that the SV sounds like it on any setting. Not. I'll provide clips at some point.

My next fooling around session later today will be to use the SV112 as a powered extension cabinet for the Haze (Haze has two different outs, one emulated and one straight pre-amp out that can be used for this purpose... or I'll put my stereo chorus in the Haze effects loop (instrument level, so I can use my DL4 in it) and take the dry out to the SV, etc. etc.)

Sorry for the rant, but as others have said, SO CLOSE, but yet SO FAR! The idea of having to fix the cabinet appears to just annoy me no end.

Just can't drink the Kool Aid on this one.

Edit:

REALLY SORRY for thread hijacking, all. Too much coffee too early. Hope I have not offended.



Re: MKII 112 - Second Impressions
by guitargman on 2009-10-23 06:37:25

great ideas guys and it's nice to see some interest in this, but i'm gonna agree with bonedaddio and say that for this $$$ i'm not fixing a dam thing. I'll have them send me another one and see what happens. In then end, I'm hopeing for a good outcome.



Re: MKII 112 - Second Impressions
by Apologist on 2009-10-23 06:54:39

Got the UX1 and it monitors the mic1 of the XLR out of HD100 very well but I did find that, at least while using stand alone application you could still only monitor 2 tones. Was hoping to do instrument input dual while monitoring input from mic as well but if it's possible I haven't figured it out yet.

So I have a Pod Farm Tone on intrument input and Mic1 as SVHD100MKII input and it sounds killer.

Was thinking of recording some snippets and posting them for your listening pleasure I may do it this weekend if I get a chance.

Any requests for Amp Models or presets ..Swamp Throat and Arachnophopia are two good high gain presets but then I think in this instance Line 6 made some decent presets for a change ... at least they sound good to me. Just let me know what you'd like to hear and I'll see if I can swing it.

My pedal board is still on back order which sucks though.



Re: MKII 112 - Second Impressions
by phil_m on 2009-10-23 07:00:52

If this truly is design flaw that affects a majority or all of the combos, I would expect Line 6 to address it in some way.  It's hard to imagine how it could have gotten by in a prototype, but it could be something as simple as the factory using a slightly different type of plywood for the back than what was originally used.  This strikes me as something that could be an example of aeroelastic flutter, where the resonant frequency of plywood is matching up with a prominent freqency coming out of the speaker.  I kind of doubt that it's simply from the sound pressure level alone that it's causing the vibration - although I suppose that could be a possibility.

In any case, I would imagine that it will be taken care of in some way.



Re: MKII 112 - Second Impressions
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2009-10-23 07:12:46

I really shouldn't have said "bad design".  Phil probably has the thing nailed here.  The design is probably sound, but the implementation, at least for some units, was substandard.  Very well might have been under-spec'd plywood.



Re: MKII 112 - Second Impressions
by spaceatl on 2009-10-23 09:34:55

aeroelastic flutter...

That makes me wonder about sticking a thin dampening material to the inside of the cab...Seems like if the flutter is really internal to the ply itself, just throwing a towel in the bottom of the cab might be enough to dampen the flutter...That doesn't fix anything...or even prove where exactly the flutter is coming from...just thinking out loud...If after tightening everything and making sure the whole structure is rigid the flutter still happens and a towel in the bottom minimizes it, then I tend to think something is wrong with the wood itself...



Re: MKII 112 - Second Impressions
by GoD_X on 2009-10-23 09:54:03

is this problems just with the 112?? anyone tried the 212 yet???



Re: MKII 112 - Second Impressions
by guitargman on 2009-10-23 10:37:02

I have another 112 on the way. unfortunatley, there suckass RMA policy is to get the return 1st, 3-4 day turnaround time, then prob shipped ground I'm looking at 2 plus weeks wihtout an amp. Nice, real nice. The new one will prob do the same thing based on what i've read on here. Tech support says they dont know about this problem but will try to duplicate it. SUX.



Re: MKII 112 - Second Impressions
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2009-10-23 10:41:07

Most places will let you order a new one as you simultaneously return the old.  That's if you don't mind the extra temporary charge on your credit card.



Re: MKII 112 - Second Impressions
by guitargman on 2009-10-23 10:52:59

nope, i asked......



Re: MKII 112 - Second Impressions
by jws1982 on 2009-10-23 11:15:06

My 212 doesn't have the issue.  However, neither did the 112 I tried in Guitar Center.  I jammed loud and long in the loud room on each one too.  The 112 definitely "shook" more while playing at volume, but didn't have any annoying rattles.  Both were straight out of the boxes when I tested them.



Re: MKII 112 - Second Impressions
by GoD_X on 2009-10-23 12:04:30

can anyone else confirm the issue is just with the 112 and not the 212. i dont live in the US so i usually buy based on the forum input from you guys and youtube videos, i have the SV212mki but i want to buy the mk2 212.



Re: MKII 112 - Second Impressions
by lenunez2 on 2009-10-23 12:23:42

If resonant frequency vibration is at play, I would think that you might consider what it would take to alter the resonant frequency of the cab. I've been wrong plenty, but I'd be surprized if a towel is going to do much good. The resonant frequency is a function of the mass of the object (Just like your guitar string the thicker the string, the lower the pitch). Change the mass and it will resonate at a different frequency (provided that is the issue).

As such, the non-destructive, simple test that I am proposing is to get yourself some wood clamps, and clamp something (another piece of wood, or flat piece of metal) to the back panel. The clamps need to be tight enough such that the cab feels like it the clamped on mass is part of the cab. The Mass needs to be big enough to make some appreciable difference in the resonant frequency.

This same technique is used for suspension bridges whereby the wind can somtimes get the bridge resonating to the point that they want to shale themselves apart. Engineers go in an strategically add mass in certain points to change the resonant frequency such that the new resonanat frequency is something that is improbable. It's a lovely thought the next time you are crossing a high bridge :-)



Re: MKII 112 - Second Impressions
by mtrash14 on 2009-10-23 12:27:04

Adding stiffeners (bracing) to the inside of the back panel I'd say will void the warranty so IMO that idea is out.  Removing the back panel, making a new panel to experiment with, then if the amp goes south replace it with the original and send it back.  That might work if you don't miss any of the screw holes and get caught.  

-------

And for you Tube Tone Snobs out there  (   I'm one too ), don't expect that real gutsy tube tone until L6 decides to get serious about tube amps.  The SV, IMO, does compete very well with the SS market and the lower priced tube amp market, but when you start pulling in the big boys.........>>>  

Thats all I've got

MT



Re: MKII 112 - Second Impressions
by bonedaddio on 2009-10-23 14:14:53

After reading the other more recent comments, I wonder if the grade of plywood used (or that batch or lot) is delaminating... as in the layers of wood aren't sticking together... as in bad materials, NOT bad design. After all, the backs on SV Mk ones don't do this...

I've had a sheet or two of Marine plywood that came through like this.



Re: MKII 112 - Second Impressions
by zo2u2 on 2011-05-28 20:08:08

My MK2 112 sounds great & no rattles...my other 2 guitarist both have MK1-2/12 & HD100 8/12 & my 112 hangs with them easily...I had the 2/12 but I hated lugging the thing around..traded it for the 112 model & never looked back..especially when we are done & it's time to move them....I am out the door first......




The information above may not be current, and you should direct questions to the current forum or review the manual.