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Lack of support for Linux
by captainbob on 2010-01-12 15:13:24

I want to clear up a few misconceptions about Linux.

I am a huge Linux fan.  I am running Ubuntu Studio 9.04 for recording.  Thats the good one.  And Debian Squeeze Testing for web surfing.

I keep stumbling across a lot of upset people who are angry there is little if no commercial support for Linux.  I came across a closed thread on the Line 6 site that some people were raving about how Line 6 does not support Linux.

Heres why.

Its the licensing.  Linux is licensed to the general public.  YOU own Linux, not Line 6.  That license states that Linux cannot be bought or sold.  How Red Hat does it,  I am not sure, but you cannot charge for Linux code.  Linux is free, and shall always remain free.  Ever wonder why you can download a whole Linux desktop and all the apps for free?  Its the licensing.  Pretty nice huh?

Well, thats also a 2 edged sword.  Because Linux is free, for profit companies such as Line 6, cannot write programs in Linux code and charge money for them.  Line 6 would be required by law to give away all their Linux software for free.  That would be real nice, but Line 6 and most other companies are not in business to give away their products.  They have bills to pay, salaries to meet, ect. They are not charities.

Understand?

Linux has Windows emulators such as WINE that will run some Windows apps, but I don't believe these will run Line 6 SOFTWARE.  The software will install, but won't function.  Its up to the Linux folks to make their emulator work well enough to run programs written for Windows, not the other way around.

But not all is lost.

I have not tested this myself, with Line 6 products, as I cannot use Line 6 anymore since upgrading to Windows 7, but thats a whole other story, and the blame for that one DOES fall directly on Line 6 for dropping the ball, BUT, there is a great sound card, the M-Audio Delta 44.  It costs around $130.00.  I have one.  Its got 4, 1/4 inch inputs and 4,  1/4 outputs.  That card does work with Ubuntu Studio 9.0.  Don't bother with 9.10 or any other version of Ubuntu Studio, because I have tested several, and they are bug ridden,  unworkable pieces of crap.  But version 9.04 works well.

The Delta card is supported by Linux.  I don't see why it would not be possible to run say a Tone Port UX8 into a mixer and run the mixer out into the Delta input.  I believe that would make the Line 6 amp model sound available to Linux DAWs such as Ardour. Perhaps adaptors would be needed.

Stop wining, get creative.  You shouldn't be recording on an inherently unstable system such as Windows anyway, unless you are into losing your project, or enjoy looking at Blue Screens.  I know, due to crashes, I lost many Line 6 projects on Windows XP.

For $300.00 bucks I built a whole home recording studio, complete with the low latency real time kernel Ubuntu offers.  $700.00 if you include the guitar and computer. It sounds awesome.

Do your research, and stop complaining.



Re: Lack of support for Linux
by pbear5 on 2010-01-12 15:54:04

you could surely run a TonePort into a Linux supported interface--no mixer required--but you would need a windows or mac computer to run the TonePort.  you would be better off with a POD or other standalone solution if you just want to run one box with Linux.

personally i feel the reason for lack of Linux drivers/software is that this would open up another whole can of support worms for each company to deal with.  it would really be a nightmare because there are so many different flavors of Linux and each one of those is open to being changed at any time--if i understand the whole open-source thing.  if they did offer support for Ubunto then the Red Hat and Fedora people would be up in arms. 

when i hear people talking about how stable a Linux system is i have to ask--but what are you doing with it?  a Windows Vista system is perfectly stable if you don't install any software or hardware.  "normal" applications like Office, Explorer, Mail don't crash regularly.  if you are very selective with what you install on any system they can mostly be considered stable--unless there is a bug or a hardware issue and then you need someone who will develop a solution.  my iMac/Tiger is extremely stable.  i never shut it down or restart it unless there is some update or i install new software.  i very rarely experience any application crashes and even more rarely have to perform a hard shut-down--probably three times in two years--and each instance was due to some free plugin that i installed into Tracktion for a trial run.  at work i run an XP 32-bit machine and it crashes more often but i run at least 10 applications including SolidWorks 3-d modeling software at any given time--usually these are traced back to RAM--i'm maxed out on XP 32-bit with 4 gig physical--3.2(?) recognized.  my point is that, if Linux users had access to all of the hardware and software that a Mac or Windows user has, chances are they would see a reduction in stability so the only advantage they would really have is that it was free.



Re: Lack of support for Linux
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2010-01-12 15:55:53

captainbob wrote:

Because Linux is free, for profit companies such as Line 6, cannot write programs in Linux code and charge money for them.  Line 6 would be required by law to give away all their Linux software for free.

That's complete hogwash.  Plenty of companies write software for Linux and sell it.  It just happens that there are a lot of freeware applications out there that are licensed openly.

And Line6 does not sell its drivers.

Red Hat, by the way, doesn't sell the software.  It sells support.

Ooooo!!!! Look!  Soldier of Fortune game for Linux:  $119  A far cry from free.

http://www.amazon.com/Soldier-Fortune-Linux-Pc/dp/B00004TBBY



Re: Lack of support for Linux
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2010-01-12 16:00:48

captainbob wrote:


You shouldn't be recording on an inherently unstable system such as Windows anyway, unless you are into losing your project, or enjoy looking at Blue Screens.  I know, due to crashes, I lost many Line 6 projects on Windows XP.

I've never experienced a crash while recording on XP, never lost a project, and never saw a blue screen.  Ever.

Hey, I'm glad for you that you got your system doing what you want it to do.  That's very cool, and even cooler to have such a low cost recording setup.



Re: Lack of support for Linux
by mikey1 on 2010-01-12 16:36:01

Same here. 25 Cd's produced using XP. Never a blue screen. Not even one. I have lost a track or two but it was my fault. And I did have a hard drive failure but that was a bad drive and I was able to recover everything. XP is aces in my book. I've got everything working in my studio and I aint changing nothing. I tried the 64bit version of Windows 7 to try and take advantage of the extra ram and I got some stuff working but there was no noticable increase in speed. And I was BSOD'in all over the place.

I used Linux when I worked in IT at OCB. It crashed all the time.



Re: Lack of support for Linux
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2010-01-12 16:50:38

Mikey,

As you should well know, all the big studios use Linux as the platform for their DAW software.  Right?

Wrong.  ProTools doesn't run on Linux.



Re: Lack of support for Linux
by nuser101 on 2010-01-12 18:06:01

As a scientist with quite a few clients, I run linux without issue at work, and have been doing so for about 3 years.  My clients are surprised when they find out about it (I am diligent about file conversion to MS file types when the need arises. I haven't mistakenly sent out a .odt, yet). It works, and works very well for that purpose, and I don't have to worry about the cumbersome MS or MAC kaching quotient. At home, my kids have one Mac box (a MacBook Pro), and a very old XP/Linux dual boot machine, home built in 2002. They use Linux, by their own choice, most of the time, although the elder one is becoming a Mac fanatic because of the high school he attends. Different strokes...

That said, I would not expect Line 6 or Boss, or any other company, to write for Linux for the simple reason that the market is not there, nor does it seem to be growing at the rate that would cause Mac or MS to worry about it.  Current estimates have it at 1.5 - 2.5% (the upper estimate is very generous in its assumptions) of the desktop market share.

Very few, if any, companies in the music business could profit from writing and maintaining code for such a small market share.



Re: Lack of support for Linux
by phil_m on 2010-01-12 18:38:59

<a target=new href=http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm44/loud7600/pcmaclinux.jpg"class="jive-image" src="http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm44/loud7600/pcmaclinux.jpg"/>



Re: Lack of support for Linux
by captainbob on 2010-01-13 04:30:54

Ok, a clarification, you are right, you can charge money for Linux, so long as you include the source code.  The source code must always remain free.

How long would a company remain profitable selling its software, if they did this?  In no time, there would be open source variations that would do the exact same thing for free. I mean if you spend millions developing something, it would kinda suck to have it outdone by a free version 3 months later.



Re: Lack of support for Linux
by captainbob on 2010-01-13 04:45:55

pbear, how many times in Windows do you go to open a program, and it fails to load?

How many times does a program lock up? If you've been running a system for a while, over a year, how long does it take to boot?  Windows by nature gets slower over time, because of fragmentation.  Then you have to defrag... more maintence.

Thats unacceptable.

Linux being free is not the only advantage.  Its also secure.  You are not running in the equvilent of root all the time.  How much resource sucking anti malware do you have to run, just to be able to keep viruses off your pc?

Linux is immune to Windows viruses.  You can pick them up, but they just sit there, they do nothing to the computer.  I spend almost no time scanning for viruses and worrying about threats.  Linux can get Linux specific viruses, but they are far harder to write, because they cannot easily install themselves like in Windows.  Windows is a virus magnet.

That alone is a major drawback.  My Windows 7 machine, I don't even put it online for that reason.

Crashes after installing freeware are probably due to the freeware being infected with a virus.



Re: Lack of support for Linux
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2010-01-13 04:59:04

captainbob wrote:

Ok, a clarification, you are right, you can charge money for Linux, so long as you include the source code.  The source code must always remain free.

How long would a company remain profitable selling its software, if they did this?

No, you can't charge money for Linux.  However, you CAN charge for support and maintenance contracts for Linux.  That's what the RedHat folks do.

You can also charge any money you want for software that runs on Linux and you do NOT have to give out the source code.



Re: Lack of support for Linux
by captainbob on 2010-01-13 05:44:40

Well Mickey, I don't know when it was you last ran Linux in IT, but things have changed quite a bit. If it was recently, I would have to say IT didn't do something right...LOL!   Because it just doesn't do that. There are dozens and dozens of different Linux based operating systems, and on occasion, someone might put out a bug ridden system.  If you stick with a large distro like Debian, you will not have those problems.   Perhaps you meant a program crash?  Some programs are buggy, but less now than in the past.  Perhaps IT modified the system?  Who knows.

I know from experience a lot of these IT guys get stuck in their ways.  My wife runs Oracle in her dept to run the intruments, {Lab equipment} the rest of the company is running Windows in the offices.  They have an IT dept that maintains the Windows systems, and those guys cannot do a thing with Oracle.  They hate it and urge her to run Windows.  So she has to get a consultant from Calif, a specialist, to help with setting up new applications.  Using Windows to run those instruments would be a total joke.

I have been running Linux for 5 years and never once had system crash.  I have done maybe 70 installations, and have tried many systems.  Some better than others. I stick with Debian for the most part. I did fight with 2 versions of Ubuntu Studio for 3 weeks before finding another version that worked fine.  Some things are problematic.  I guess thats the cost of free development.

Yes Linux is a small market share, but things are slowly changing, and will continue to change.  I understand there are ALMOST no pro recording studios that use the Linux platform.  Right now.     http://http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/feb04/articles/mirrorimage.htm">http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/feb04/articles/mirrorimage.htm">http://http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/feb04/articles/mirrorimage.htm   Its still developing.  The average home studio doesn't necessisarily need to be running Pro Tools.  Ardour is fine. In fact its very good.  Also, I don't know of any studios that would use a Guitarport/Rifftracker either for that matter...LOL!  We are talking about home recording, and how those who may want to use Linux may be able to use  Line 6 products with their set up.

But to get back to my origional point.

I read a closed thread yesterday, where someone was ranting about the lack of Linux support from Line 6.

What bothered me was the response from the moderator.  The moderator came off sounding sarcastic and snide. Thats really not necessary.  That type of sarcasm does nothing to promote customer relations.  I assume it was due to a lack of understanding about Linux licensing.

Including open source code with your software product is like allowing the students to keep a copy of the test answers while they take the test. Their amp models would be made available for free and LEGAL download to everyone, and I cannot blame Line 6 for wanting to protect product.  Their sound is what they do best.

There are  Linux drivers for the Line 6 Pod.  But the problem is the software does not run on Linux.

My other point was to stop blaming Line 6 and just figure out something.  I am not using Line 6 anymore.  I would like to.  If the Tone Port UX8 is strictly a hardware device, there should be no problems using it with anything you want.  I haven't looked into it yet. If it requires software to control it, then I guess Linux users are S.O.L.

And if you are happy running an 8 year old Windows XP dinosaur, then keep on keeping on.



Re: Lack of support for Linux
by captainbob on 2010-01-13 05:49:42

Here...

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/feb04/articles/mirrorimage.htm



Re: Lack of support for Linux
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2010-01-13 06:24:10

captainbob wrote:

Including open source code with your software product is like allowing the students to keep a copy of the test answers while they take the test. Their amp models would be made available for free and LEGAL download to everyone

Except that Line6 wouldn't have to include the source code for their product.  You can, in fact, distribute proprietary code that runs on the Linux platform without making it open source.



Re: Lack of support for Linux
by captainbob on 2010-01-13 06:37:05

Just what code would you be using if you were to write a program that runs on Linux?  I am not talking about running a Windows emulator.

If a project is under the GPL then anything you derive from it must also be released under the GPL.  You are still allowed to charge money for it, but anyone who buys it must be provided with the source code and you cannot prevent them from selling it or giving it away for free.

http://www.forbes.com/2005/05/26/cz_dl_0526linux.html

http://www.faqs.org/docs/linux-HOWTO/INFO-SHEET.html

href="http://www.faqs.org/docs/Linux-HOWTO/INFO-SHEET.html">




Re: Lack of support for Linux
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2010-01-13 06:45:27

captainbob wrote:

If a project is under the GPL then anything you derive from it must also be released under the GPL.

You understand that just because Linux, the operating system, is under the GPL, that software you write that runs on that OS doesn't have to be under the GPL, right?

If you write a word processor in Java or C++ or whatever, for Linux, you're not deriving that code from the Linux kernel.  You're creating a completely independent executable that runs on top of the OS.



Re: Lack of support for Linux
by nuser101 on 2010-01-13 08:32:18

Here is the title of the relevant section of the GPL license structure:

GNU GENERAL PUBLIC LICENSE    TERMS AND CONDITIONS FOR COPYING, DISTRIBUTION AND MODIFICATION

Immediately, one can notice that it refers strictly to copying, distribution and modification, and does not refer to new software at all. However, there is a big, big bone of as yet unresolved tension in the open source community as to what constitutes a "derivative work."

For example, I write software that calls upon a system service (say file i/o, or window drawing routine). There are those in the open source community that say that the minute I do that on a linux box, I am under GPL, because I have written derivative code that relies on GPL for functionality. In other words, even if I charged for it, the subsequent user would have the right to give it away, and I would have to release my source code as well.

This aspect of GPL is very much in dispute, and has not been resolved, insofar as I'm aware. Anybody else have any further legal docs on this? I know there are restricted drivers out there, and some charge for them. However, in those cases, it is quite possible that the driver is written as a "black box", and doesn't care or know about the operating system that requests its services.



Re: Lack of support for Linux
by mikey1 on 2010-01-13 09:17:06

So, let's see if I'm understanding. The IT guys at your wife's work hate Linux. They cant do a thing with it and she has to hire a specialist from California. And it took you three weeks to find recording software that works on your system. Sign me up I'm sold!

I probably made a record during those three weeks but hey, I'm a dinosaur. I'm still using tape and vacuum tubes. I'm still using mics from the 40's.

I dont think Linux will ever catch on in big studios. Mac/Protools has that sewn up. They are just as concerned with being cool as the code monkeys are. And there are musicians that think Protools has some magical specialness that will make their record sound better. And, speaking of dinosaurs, big studios are closing all over the world.

I'd also have to point out that most custom built dedicated recording computers like the ones Sweetwater or Spectral build, use 32bit XP.

Oh yea, I worked in IT way back in '98. Only for a short time. I hated it. And, it's Mikey, not Mickey.



Re: Lack of support for Linux
by spaceatl on 2010-01-13 10:18:23

Here's the rub...Linux only has a 0.61% - 5% share of the destop market depending on who's data you believe...I tend to think it's in the 3% area...Not much of a market once you narrow that down to guitar players that use Line 6...

Besides, if Edit and Monkey were TRUE JAVA applications then you could simply copy them onto your Linux workstation and they would run...That doesn't even work between Windows and OSX (Berkley Unix)...

The source code you are talking about is any source your app uses that is under GPL...That is, if you change it and re-compile the kernel to optimize your application...You can still sell the application, but you must provide any changed GPL source...Hence, the market is smaller for that kind of advanced workflow...It really doesn't matter, anythign can be de-compiled...



Re: Lack of support for Linux
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2010-01-13 10:42:56

spaceatl wrote:

Here's the rub...Linux only has a 0.61% - 5% share of the destop market depending on who's data you believe...I tend to think it's in the 3% area.

Some harder numbers for desktop OS based upon web client usage statistics (admittedly inexact) are

Windows: 90.22%

Mac OS: 5.93%

Linux: 1.04%

That really puts things in perspective.  As much as my Mac loving buddies who would try to convert me would like (and I must admit, it is an attractive platform), we're talking about a 15th of the market share that Windows enjoys.  It's no wonder that nobody writes viruses for the Mac or linux...because aside from the security implications in attempting that feat, there's a much smaller return on investment.  Same goes for software.  Mac OS-X is the most successful unix-like OS out there for the desktop.  Still, there's not nearly the variety of applications out there that there is for the Win platform.  I'm still waiting for Reaper to come out of beta for OS-X, and it's been there for a while.  Sure, you could argue ProTools but that's a big hardware/software investment.  And TonePort support for Snow Leopard isn't there yet either.  To make the switch, I'd need both of those things.

I played the "install the obscure OS" game many times.  First time was OS/2 Warp back in 94 or so.  What I found out from that little escapade, after I finally got my hardware working with it, was that there was no useful software available.  So about 15 years later when my mother's computer became wildly infected with malware and she had also misplaced her XP disc, I installed Ubuntu.  Admittedly, not bad.  It had OpenOffice, Firefox, Thunderbird...basically everything she used already.  But it had no support for her sound card or HP scanner.  So she ended up buying another copy of XP.

I'll admit, if it wasn't for needing good, commercially available recording software, Ubuntu is a cool option.  I'd install it on a cheap laptop in a second for web/email usage.  But if I had to go for something more fully featured and supported, it'd be the Mac OS over Ubuntu in a heartbeat.  In fact, when my wife's PC finally dies, she's getting a Mac Mini or a Macbook of some kind.



Re: Lack of support for Linux
by pbear5 on 2010-01-13 11:39:08

"pbear, how many times in Windows do you go to open a program, and it fails to load?"  Zero

"How many times does a program lock up?"  not often--usually only when i've reached my RAM limit.  it happens more than on my Mac but, again, i'm running multiple appications all day long.

"If you've been running a system for a while, over a year, how long does it take to boot?"  I've had this computer for around 2 years, i have defragmented only a couple of times (i don't consider defragmenting to be "out of the question"--you realize that this can be scheduled to occur while you sleep right?--i just don't feel that it's needed.)  Boot times have not increased noticeably but i have the same hardware and software (give or take some updates) that i've always had--corporate is very strict about what can be installed.  Again, i think it goes back to the complexity vs. stability thing--the more crap you load your computer up with the less stable it will become--i've learned and re-learned this lesson on every Windows machine i've had.  on my work computer i probably have less than 30 applications installed and i'm not constantly installing and uninstalling things so, i guess, my registry stays pretty safe.  I agree that, under normal home use, the older a Windows install gets the screwier it gets and I don't think that an annual fresh installation is a bad thing to consider--it certainly gets you thinking about backup strategies which too many people ignore.

"Linux being free is not the only advantage.  Its also secure.  You are not running in the equvilent of root all the time.  How much resource sucking anti malware do you have to run, just to be able to keep viruses off your pc?"  I am behind a hardware firewall, we run Symantec Antivirus and we have a Spam Blocking service--that's it.  Personally i don't buy that Viruses do as much harm as people--especially tech support--would like us to believe.  When I had a PC at home i never ran Antivirus and only used Windows Firewall.  so how do you know that one of the contributors to Linux hasn't set up something that will give him direct access to your computer?  is there someone who inspects the code for stuff like this?

so, let's say your worst Windows 7 paranoid fantasy comes true and a virus wipes out your entire drive.  was that so bad?  didn't you have your important docs backed up--a bad drive is probably more likely to wipe out data than a virus so you should have had that data backed up anyway.  certainly no reason to own a computer and not have it connected to the internet.  as far as a source of personal information--my wife's former employer found a temp had taken home employment records and had them scattered all over her apartment--people have access, you should have protection.

"Crashes after installing freeware are probably due to the freeware being infected with a virus."  i'm more inclined to believe that free software is poorly written and/or insufficiently tested.  you are free to think it's due to a virus--the programmers will appreciate that.  i'm not a hacker but, if i were going to spend time creating a virus, i wouldn't take the Captain Choas approach of doing some minor, niggling glitch that attaches itself to a freeware download.  i'd create a virus that made fart noises every time you clicked your mouse--more of a Cartman approach.



Re: Lack of support for Linux
by spaceatl on 2010-01-13 12:19:36

My next family PC will be an iMac...

So your mom was making documents in Open Office, surfing the net on Firefox while drinking a bottle of Thunderbird?



Re: Lack of support for Linux
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2010-01-13 12:26:21

Nah. Mad Dog 20/20



Re: Lack of support for Linux
by nuser101 on 2010-01-13 14:28:37

Just for the record, I SAID IT FIRST!

"That said, I would not expect Line 6 or Boss, or any other company, to write for Linux for the simple reason that the market is not there, nor does it seem to be growing at the rate that would cause Mac or MS to worry about it.  Current estimates have it at 1.5 - 2.5% (the upper estimate is very generous in its assumptions) of the desktop market share."

Just for the record, I'm DRUNK, and I don't mind admitting it.

Just for the record, my company's first product "ALERT" herbicide, was granted its first regulatory approval today, and provides a green vehicle for delivery of a variety of herbicides that, heretofore, had been delivered with what some might consider nasty materials.

Just for the record, this has nothing to do with Line 6 or its products, or maybe not even this thread, but I don't care.



Re: Lack of support for Linux
by mikey1 on 2010-01-13 14:56:19

You're so sexy when you geekspeak.



Re: Lack of support for Linux
by fblamauer on 2010-01-13 15:24:58

Ubuntu is great, I'm am using it right now and it is actually my primary system that I do everything with. I have been windows free for over five years now. But, to be honest, writing a commercial app for linux doesn't make very much sense unless you are a Mozilla or a Google since the linux user base is very small and only technically proficient folks will use it as a primary system. Having said that, OS X and linux are both unix variants so if  you have working code for OS X then porting it to any other flavour of *nix  should be pretty easy. OS X is actually  BSD unix in case you didn't know.



Re: Lack of support for Linux
by captainbob on 2010-01-13 15:28:55

A program that runs on Linux may tie into the kernel.   If the program has  GPL licensed components to make it run, then it would be a licensing violation.



Re: Lack of support for Linux
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2010-01-13 15:39:55

nuser101 wrote:

Just for the record, I'm DRUNK, and I don't mind admitting it.

my company's first product "ALERT" herbicide, was granted its first regulatory approval today

Well, drink up then!  Congrats!



Re: Lack of support for Linux
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2010-01-13 15:40:48

fblamauer wrote:

OS X is actually  BSD unix in case you didn't know.

With some neXt stuff thrown in there, as well as some other.



Re: Lack of support for Linux
by captainbob on 2010-01-13 15:45:22

Sorry Mikey,

No, the IT guys where my wife works, are all Windows guys.  They hate Oracle. Thats a commercial application, its not Linux.

Yes Linux is behind when it comes to audio production.  It took me 3 weeks to get a decent system running because 2 versions I tried I did have problems with. There were bugs.  In Ubuntu Studio 8.04 the Jack server simply did not work, and without it the system is useless.  I then tried the newest version, version 9.10, and Jack worked fine.  But 9.10 failed to fully detect my M-Audio card.  I don't have the time to work on this full time, so the easy fix was to try version 9.04, which someone posted stating it detected their M-Audio card and that Jack worked fine.

It did, and that system works well.  It has a ways to go as far as consistancy goes, from distro to distro.  But the version I am using  works well, and it didn't cost me anything.

This doesn't have to degenerate into some stupid flame war.  There are people who want to use Linux for audio production, and were upset that Line 6 doesn't support Linux.  Thats what this thread was about.

I like Mac, if you like Mac or Windows better for whatever reason, then use it.



Re: Lack of support for Linux
by captainbob on 2010-01-13 16:32:34

pbear, there is lots of excellent freeware.  Open Office, AVG, Commodo Firewall, Zone Alarm, Avast, Firefox, Thunderbird, ect.

I don't leave the pc on at night, so defragging, would be done when I'm trying to use it.  Same with virus scans.  If you really need to use your pc dude, a virus can totally wreak havoc, depending on what it is. 

I am starting to get bored with this Windows vs Linux crap.  Again, this thread was about how those who would like to use Line 6 with Linux are unhappy with the lack of support.  I don't know with absolute certainty, but I would bet Line 6 would require the use GPL licensed code to properly intergrate with a Linux system.

I like the stability of Linux.  I like the low latency kernel in Ubuntu Studio.  And I like that I don't have to maintain the system with defragging and constant virus scans. I am primarily a Debian user, Ubuntu I am just beginning to use for audio.

And yes, I know that OSX and beyond are based in part on BSD.  BSD is licensed differently than Linux.  Windows contains some BSD code. Some will undoubtadly dispute this.  Don't bother..      Its perfectly legal under BSD's license.






Re: Lack of support for Linux
by pbear5 on 2010-01-13 16:55:48

"It took me 3 weeks to get a decent system running because 2 versions I tried I did have problems with. There were bugs.  In Ubuntu Studio 8.04 the Jack server simply did not work, and without it the system is useless.  I then tried the newest version, version 9.10, and Jack worked fine.  But 9.10 failed to fully detect my M-Audio card.  I don't have the time to work on this full time, so the easy fix was to try version 9.04, which someone posted stating it detected their M-Audio card and that Jack worked fine.

It did, and that system works well.  It has a ways to go as far as consistancy goes, from distro to distro.  But the version I am using  works well, and it didn't cost me anything."

see, to me this just doesn't sound like the description of a "stable" system.  but i agree with you that there is great free software available but you can't argue that all of it is good and you can't blame a "virus" for all of the bad stuff out there.



Re: Lack of support for Linux
by captainbob on 2010-01-13 17:14:50

Well the problem wasn't a stability issue.  The Jack server was buggy in the 8.04 release.  They fixed that in subsequent releases.  The other problem was my sound card wasn't properly detected.  Another bug.  Version 9.04 has no bugs I can see.

For a free system, installed on a computer built from spare parts, its not a bad set up.  For home use, you cannot beat it for that price.  I am not going to compare Ardour to Sonar that I have installed on Windows 7, but so far, its doing everything I need it to do.  I'm happy with it.

And no, on XP, I had an app called Win Patrol, and with that I could limit the start up programs.  When I recorded I even shut down the firewall.  I still experienced crashes.  Dispite backing each session up to usb, {finally I learned the hard way..} when it crashed, I would lose what I was working on. I don't blame crashes only on a viral load.  I mostly blame them on the unstable and flakey nature of Windows.  Even my new Windows 7 installation locks up when I use Adobe InDesign.  But 7 is much better at unlocking itself than XP.  What can I say?  I'd like to run Adobe on Linux...

Linux is stable.  I like it.



Re: Lack of support for Linux
by fblamauer on 2010-01-13 17:23:01

Dude....this is way off topic but any flavour of linux is considerably more stable than any form of MShaft OS. Linux may have a low adoption rate on the desktop but in the business world it's another story. Most genomic research, special effects rendering and web services is done with linux.

I also installed Ubuntu Studio like Captainbob using an MAudio card but I actually tried Windows first assuming that it's fully supported and I would have a proof point that all the hardware was working properly. Installed fresh XP, loaded all the stupid drivers, applied spk 2, then spk 3 and guess what....couldn't get the MAdio card to work properly.  I happened to install Ubuntu Studio 9.04 first and it worked perfectly on first boot. Jack works fine for me but does freak out from time to time, probably because it's an old machine and only has 1GB memory. I'm running Rosegarden and recording MIDI no problem. Have not tried audio recording yet but am planning to upgrade to latest AMD 64bit hardware then will give it a try.



Re: Lack of support for Linux
by Insidian on 2010-01-13 17:46:46

I have Ubuntu Studio 9.04, and it does work well. The problem is that the setup process is not user friendly at all. And by setup, I dont mean installation, that's actually a snap with the gui install most linux distros come with now. By setup, I mean setting up the recording studio aspect. Your casual or even intermediate computer user will have a ton of problems that they will struggle with indefinitely. Once it gets it going, though, it's smooth sailing. There are third party drivers for some L6 products out there, but the products that work with them are very limited. What I did was get my Presonus Inspire firewire interface going with freebob, and after some tweaking I got Jack to recognize it and I was good to go. Latency is almost non-existant, and stability is great. I do admit, though, that I still do most of my recording with Windows 7 because it's so much more user friendly.



Re: Lack of support for Linux
by Insidian on 2010-01-13 17:58:55

Nah, it sure doesnt. But check our Ardour II, good stuff, and has many of the features ProTools has. I'm not trying to convert anyone, just dont want people to keep their eyes closed. Linux is a great OS, it's virtually virus free, and CAN be more stable than any MS OS out there, if you know what you are doing. That's always the kicker. People that don't know what they are doing give it a 5 minute tryout until they cant get it to work like Windows, and out the door it goes. The thing with Linux is that it isnt Windows, and therefore cant be used as such. What it is is a streamlined, less bulky OS that can do what Windows does, but in a different way. I personally like it, but dont use it as my main OS. Why? Because I know that I cant make it run correctly, yet. It's fun to try, though.



Re: Lack of support for Linuxfblamaur
by captainbob on 2010-01-14 05:09:02

fblamaur,  thats right.  Hollywood uses Linux extensively in movie production.

I cannot even tell you how many times I've called the insurance company, or some city dept, and they tell me I have to wait, because their computer is acting up.  I always ask them, "Is it Windows?"  and the answer is always yes.  These lockups kill production time.  How much money in license fees are city, state and federal government agencys paying Microshaft  to run all those pcs using Windows?   Thats a lot of wasted money at a time when they are telling us they are doing all they can to cut budgets.

The new owner of our printing company comes from the IT world.  He is a Windows programmer.  He bought our company as a side investment. We were running Macs under the previous owner, but the new owner hates Mac.  I asked him why, and he just said because he doesn't know Mac. He also told me he hates Linux, because in college in the 90's he fooled with it and didn't like it.

So he's another one, he bases his beliefs on Linux from an experience with it he had 15 years ago. He told me Linux was hard to install.  Really?

But he hates Mac too, because he doesn't know Mac, thats the reason he gave.  I suspect thats where a lot of resistance toward Linux comes from, people don't like what they are not familiar with.  Anyway, so our new owner replaced all the macs with brand new HPs.  The first round of new computers came with Vista installed.  The second round of new pcs came with Windows 7 installed.  I'll walk into the graphics dept, and its common to see someone sitting there staring at the floor.  I ask, Whats the matter?"  and they tell me, The computer is locked up."  Brand new Vista, brand new Seven, installed by HP, maintained by an IT pro with a degree from MIT...locked up.  I'll go to use the pc at the customer service desk...locked up.  Windows fans can deny there are major issues all they want, but we all know these problems are very common place.

There was a time when the horse and buggy was more reliable than the new invention called the horseless carriage.  Things change, not always right away, but they change continuously.  A unix style platform is far superior to a Windows platform, and as these alternative systems develop further, they will become more popular.

Lastly, when talking about stability, my primary computer is running Debian Squeeze.  Squeeze is the testing version of Debian, and because its in the testing phase of development, its considered unstable.  Debian Lenny is the current stable release

Squeeze is so stable, it runs without a hickup, never a single problem with it.  Everything works flawlessly.  And running on top of my Asus/Corsair/ AMD 64 bit hardware its incredibly fast too.  It never gives me the problems with lockups that I get from Seven, and its faster.  And after I lost electric power one day at home when I was using Windows 7 and Debian at the same time, Debian recovered and started right up.  Seven, floundered and had to go into recovery.   There are better ways of doing things.



Re: Lack of support for Linux
by captainbob on 2010-01-14 05:17:47

Your not using Alsa?

Studio 9.04 comes with Alsa, did you swap out Alsa for Freebob?

If so...cool.  Never ran with freebob.

For me, 9.04 set right up.  Jack started when I clicked Start.  But I do know what you are talking about with configuration.  9.04 was easy, the only thing I had to do was open the Envy24 control, and make sure the volumns were up, and that the right drivers were selected.  The main problem with the M-Audio card is thats its considered exotic.  The system has a hard time with the 4 inputs and outputs.  Once its detected, it sounds great.



Re: Lack of support for Linux
by captainbob on 2010-01-14 05:19:57

You da man' Insidian



Re: Lack of support for Linuxfblamaur
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2010-01-14 05:30:11

captainbob wrote:

I'll walk into the graphics dept, and its common to see someone sitting there staring at the floor.  I ask, Whats the matter?"  and they tell me, The computer is locked up."  Brand new Vista, brand new Seven, installed by HP, maintained by an IT pro with a degree from MIT...locked up.  I'll go to use the pc at the customer service desk...locked up.  Windows fans can deny there are major issues all they want, but we all know these problems are very common place.

It's not that I doubt you, but I smell large amounts of hyperbole here.  An IT pro with a degree from MIT?  And he's working desktop support?  People continually staring at the ground because Windows is locked up when they're doing graphics work?  Even in a large company like the one I work for, where desktop computer support is handled by people living on two other continents that certainly don't have degrees from MIT, and our Windows desktop images are less than optimal,  there are just not these kinds of problems.  Certainly not in customer service either, where we have thousands of customer locations with dozens of computers at each one.  All running Windows.  If problems like this were so rampant, it wouldn't have been deemed cost effective to move tier one desktop support halfway across the world because you'd want boots on the ground to deal with these machines that constantly lock up and blue screen.

Fact of the matter is, that doing some pretty cutting edge software development on the Win platform, as I do, I haven't had my Win desktop or laptop ever lock up, blue screen, or otherwise stop working for...let's see...ever.  Even as taxed as it is running multiple server applications, development environments, etc.

Again, I'm not saying Win is the best...but come on...you're overstating this a little bit.



Re: Lack of support for Linuxfblamaur
by phil_m on 2010-01-14 05:36:54

In the architecture and engineering world, which relies pretty heavily on programs that are graphics oriented, Windows still is king.  I have worked with a few architects who use Macs, but for the most part, everyone doing extensive drafting and rendering in this area is using a PC with Windows.  There are certainly problems now and then, but I can't say that they are a major thing preventing us from getting work out.



Re: Lack of support for Linuxfblamaur
by captainbob on 2010-01-14 06:08:12

No Karl, he's not working desktop support, he's the owner.  Its a small company, and the boss works as an IT consultant outside the company in another venture.  He bought the company as a side investment. He drops in from time to time.

The pcs don't lockup everyday, all day long, sorry if you got that impression.  They do lock up, I've seen it many times, and it happens when you need it the most. The Macs were old and slow, but he should have replaced them with Macs.  Thats just my take on it.



Re: Lack of support for Linux
by mikey1 on 2010-01-14 09:10:02

No flame intended at all. I was just arguing that XP is a stable system for recording. Very stable. I'm not really a computer guy. Im a recording/musician guy. I dont understand a lot of what you guys are talking about. It wasnt easy peasy getting everything working in my studio. But it was doable. Even for me.

I can control 15 multi-timbral midi devices. I have 24 motorized strips and tons of custom mapped buttons on my control surface, 4 clock sources, 5 audio card sources, 4 dsp cards, plugins and platforms galore, and lots of old, cranky outboard gear that all works seamlessly together. Except the XTL, it only works during a full moon on a tuesday if I'm wearing a kilt. I can yank a drive out of my HD24 and plug it into my FST and bam, I'm editing audio on the computer. I can work really fast and intuitively. I've yet to max out, and if my computer bit the big one tomorrow, I could build another system and have it back up to speed in a day for very little money. A really long day probably, but that's huge. This is my third computer with the same OS.

I dont know, maybe you could get all that stuff working on a Linux system. But I doubt I could. And, I'll admit, I dont have my studio computer on the net unless I need to update something. And it has to be vital or I dont bother. The network stuff interferes with audio so it's disabled.  And I use EndItAll to shut down all the crap that I dont need.

I occasionally get to work on a Mac/PT HD/Control 24 system and it's the shiznit. I want it. I think the computer and surface alone is around 30k. And most big houses have multiple systems and write to multiple drives. Software and plugins are crazy expensive, resource intensive, and if it goes titz up, you're screwed. It's downright sexy if you have the cash. But there is no difference in basic sound quality. PT doesnt sound any better than Sonar or Reaper with comparable conversion and front end. The plugins are better.



Re: Lack of support for Linux
by pbear5 on 2010-01-14 09:27:39

i guess my definition of "stability" or all-out wonderfulness of a computer system would include the amount of time i have to spend searching around for updates and answers.  an application crashing once in awhile is less painful to me than searching blogs and forums for where HotGary635 is storing that patch he wrote for version 10.23 of Ubunto series J to fix the problem that i'm having with my printer.

btw, that's why i switched and am very glad that i switched to Mac.  perfect?  no.  but much closer than any pc i've ever used--with tons less effort.  most things actually do "just work."  digital audio (using Tracktion) was almost too easy to get set up--like, "what the hell am i going to do with the rest of the weekend?  oh yeah, maybe play some music."  so it's not as if i'm a microsoft fanboy but an open-source OS would definately be my 3rd choice.

i did try ubunto on a laptop for a short test run--i believe i had open office or some other office clone and some form of browser--it seemed very old-school-Windows to me but otherwise was able to run open office and some form of browser--extremely stable running 3 programs (but what isn't?.)  it didn't seem worth bothering trying to come up with equivalents to all of my purchased software or the iLife stuff that i use all the time.

saving your documents often is always the best way to prevent data loss--if you are creating hours and hours worth of work on any platform without saving i would say that you are bound to loose data eventually.  i'm pretty awful with this at work though--but i've got 20 items running on my task bar right now--my day is scattered like that--so it's tough to say what i should be saving when.  fear of data loss due to a crash is not reason, for me, to go to a Build Your Own Operating System--just hit the Save button once in awhile because the power could go out, you could spill a drink on your computer, your cat could chew through your power chord.  and, once every couple of months or so, leave your computer on all night while it defrags.  my dad shuts his computer down between uses therefore he rarely uses his computer--i just can't handle that, i figure if it's in sleep mode the power consumption can't be much worse than what you waste while the thing boots up and frankly i use my computer for so much that it wouldn't make sense to shut it down all the time.



Re: Lack of support for Linux
by captainbob on 2010-01-14 10:55:03

Well Mikey, I used XP for a long time too.

If you are happy with it and are getting the results you want, thats the only thing thats important.

I mean, thats what a computer is for, its just a tool.  If that tool works for you, then use it.

I really only get down on Windows when people who have no real Linux experience trash Linux in favor of what they know, Windows. Technically Linux is better, but its a steeper learning curve to sometimes get what you want out of it.  Musicians are usually artistic types and not technical geeks.  Musicains are usually end users, but not in every case.  So I do get it.  You just want a system that works, and not have to spend weeks configuring and learning.  I get it.

I have been using Linux for 5 years, I have toyed with the audio programs in the past and felt they really weren't ready.  I think they are ready now, and I think things will improve rapidly from here on out.  Its been proven to me that it works.  Hopefully in the future they can put out steady reliable releases.  Aside from that, I am new to recording with Linux myself.

I understand too, that most musicians are end users, not computer programmers.  They want to set up their system, then focus on music.  It makes sense.

Me, I don't mind that its sometimes more of a challange to get Linux up and running.  I like it, it makes me think, it helps me learn.  But thats just me.

I understand too, one of the major roadblocks holding back Linux from going mainstream, is that its simply not as easy to configure as Windows.  You have to know some things. Microsoft busted the home pc market wide open when they introduced the low cost easy to use pc.  People got comfortable with it, accepted the security vulnarbilities as just the way it is,  and have been using it ever since.  Microsoft will not be dethroned anytime soon.  They are firmly entrenched.  But there are challengers.

I say good for you.  You got a good system running, and I don't blame you for defending what you use.  XP can be excellent.  I recorded many cds worth of great material, all on XP.  I feel now, I am ready to take on the challenge of moving a step up.  Not only to Linux and its low latency, real time kernel, but also to better hardware,  and a few other upgrades. Sometimes you just gotta put your nose to the grindstone, learn, and move up.  For me, its a new way of doing things.

For Windows fans, Seven will be better than XP, once the slackers finally put out drivers.



Re: Lack of support for Linux
by captainbob on 2010-01-14 11:37:35

You know Hot Gary?? 

He offered to meet me plenty of times at the rest area for  his "Hot Fix."   Think I shoud go?  LOL!  Should I bring anything???

Funny, but its actually not really like that. 

Its actually an ego fest in the Linux forums.  Those guys pride themselves on their programming knowledge.  If some dude posts a fix and its crap, he would be ripped to shreds for his stupidity.  I have always found the info to be either helpful or not helpful, never malicious.  The Linux community wants to promote Linux, not set it back.  Cross reference, always.

I do understand what you are saying.  If I paid good money for a computer system, I too would expect the developers to give  me a useable system.

When its free though, we are in no position to complain.  All that hard development work is given to us free of charge.  Most Linux programs work flawlessly. 

The problem with some of versions of Ubuntu Studio, wasn't that the system didn't work, the problem was that the 1 crucial program that tied all the audio programs together, the Jack Server, was flawed.  And without Jack, Ubuntu Studio, as an audio production tool, was useless.  It really was the Mother of all Fu**ups that they would even release it like that.

But I mean, its up to you, the end user.    Would you rather throw money at it, and come away with a turnkey system?  Or are you like some other people, willing to do the leg work if it saves you some cash?   I think we are looking at 2 personality types.  Me, I'm  ok with the leg work.  I mean, I built my main recording guitar from a $79.00 Saga Strat kit.  Yes I had a box of spare parts.  I outfitted it with hot single coils not included with the kit, I had them just laying around.  I put a spare Fender neck on it and a Fender bridge.  I changed out the pots for better ones.  I plugged it in, and it was the best sounding guitar I ever played.  5 way switch, and not a single bad tone.  Funny, because I was always a Les Paul player.  Now my Les Paul just sits in its case.  I almost feel bad for it.  But that Saga Strat is just smokin.  I have a real Strat too, with custom shop pick ups, but even that doesn't sound as good.  Think it was just a chance combination of parts that came together, and sang.  I can't put it down.

My recording computer too.  It started out life as a Pentium III.  I found it at the dumpster when I used to rent.  I found a Pentium 4 motherboard at Goodwill for ....Get this...$1.00, still in its wrapper, never used.  I bought a Pentium processor and memory to fit the board from some dude that ran a computer supply business out of his basement, and the rest came from my spare parts box. Hey....It never crashes, not once. I have run Linux on it since I first assembled it.

I mean, Music for me is a hobby.  The less I spend on it the better.  But spending less, requires me to learn. That I don't mind.

I think it boils down to personality types....

You want Hot Gary's number...???



Re: Lack of support for Linux
by spaceatl on 2010-01-14 11:42:07

Technically, Windows (NT trunk) is a pre-emptive multi-tasking OS...So is Unix, Linux and OSX...Just like women, when you turn them upside down, they all look like sisters...

If Linux went mainstream, users would be logging in with root access and messing up thier machines just like they have in windows...And then Linux would get all these services to prevent user stupidity...All while the script kiddies start attacking it and you end up with the same thing...

I agree with you...Linux is a tool like anything else...These days I like to open the box, plug it in and go...I don't have time for Linux and it doesn't support my hardware that I know of...



Re: Lack of support for Linux
by mikey1 on 2010-01-14 11:49:53

Off topic but.....

I miss the old days. You needed four guys for mixdown. Huge patchbays. Reverb rooms. Material actually rehearsed. Editing, shmediting. Drugs. Those were the days. Ok, maybe not the drugs....

My least favorite aspect of digital recording is the editing capability. It's pretty common for me to let an artist wig out for three tracks and then edit that into a cohesive performance. I loved it at first until it became the norm. What we've gained in spontaneity we've lost in structure. There is so much you can do in post that people don't even try anymore. I never get credit for it. I get listed as producer but nobody ever says I sewed the solo together.

And pitch correction. It's a skill. A hard skill. Of course, I never get any credit for that. In fact, it's the best kept secret there is.

Glad I got that off my chest. Sorry.



Re: Lack of support for Linux
by captainbob on 2010-01-14 12:22:01

LOL!   Yes they all look the same upside down...LOL!  I like that.  It gives them something to chew on....

But in Linux....You cannot log in as root.  You need to pull up the command line, after log in,  and enter your root password.

Thats the only way you can install anything, not as easy as .exe,  but far safer.  Having to enter into  a shell to install,  is far easier than dealing with malicious code.

Its security by design.  I scan my Debian pc about twice a year.  Sometimes I am astounded to even find something.  Usually a Windows virus just sitting there in my Document folder from something I have downloaded.  It never causes me any harm.  I delete the file...gone.   It cannot install itself without the root password.  It cannot get its hands on  the root password, unless its in root.  Can't get into root, with out the root password.  Locked out.  Not because of 2 % Linux market share,  its because to write an effective virus for Linux, it takes someone with a much deeper knowledge of programming, than the average hacker kid writing malicious code.

But yes...turn them upside down, and they don't talk back as much...LOL!



Re: Lack of support for Linux
by captainbob on 2010-01-14 12:29:49

You are right Mickey...

I do think the old analog days were the best.  I hear you.

I am not a pro like you, but the best stuff was done back then, I whole heartedly agree.    Digital is the new tools.

The sound guys are as important as the band.  They can make or break a recording. Drugs or no drugs, inspiration comes from many sources.

Hey, keep up the good work...with whatever tools you use.



Re: Lack of support for Linux
by captainbob on 2010-01-14 13:33:05

Lastely, as nurser101 correctly pointed out on page 2, there is much confusion in the legal world as what constitutes dervivative work.  I am not a lawyer, and its not always very clear.   Apprehension alone may be a contributing factor as to why companies are unwilling to invest in Linux.   It will take a court case to solve this.

If and when it comes to that, if the ruling is loose, it may open the door to commercial Linux development.  I am not sure where I stand on that.  Third party software often introduces problems.

But anyway, although it was never my intention to spark any flame war,  Windows vs Linux ect, I know I do get defensive about linux.  Truth be told, Windows is a workable platform dispite any flaws, I have used Windows for many years.  And Linux has is flaws as well.  Like I said eariler, computers are just tools. Use your favorite one.

I like to veiw Windows as the family sedan, you can rely on, and Linux as the Hot Rod you like to work on.    Just because you spend time working on it instead of driving it, doesn't mean it cannot tear up the roadways or is in some way unreliable.

In the end, it really comes down to personality types, and whats best for an individual.

Happy recording...

Cheers.



Re: Lack of support for Linux
by mikey1 on 2010-01-14 14:09:08

I should point out that JBT (John Blistertip) helped me with my motherboard and component choices. The industry is assuredly predisposed to gamers. Building a computer is a minefield. I'm happy enough with mine to duplicate it should disaster strike.



Re: Lack of support for Linux
by fblamauer on 2010-01-14 14:49:01

pbear,

Searching for updates? Ubuntu gets them and installs them automatically and effectively. All the basics just work, like on a Mac. Installation is a breeze compared to MShaft only a few mouse clicks and entering some basic information, that's it. I have yet to have any issues with Ubuntu and unknown devices, with the exception of wireless cards, they do take a bit of effort. I find that installing windows is a major pain, having to install RAID or SATA drivers before the installation of the OS even starts, service packs that have to be installed in sequence and then loading drivers....I hate it and it's a wast of very valuable time!

Now Mac's are really nice but they do come at a price. Being so used to linux, I don't appreciate the proprietary nature of Mac's but they are a great platform for anyone who needs an easy to use and dependable platform for whatever it is they do. I actually coughed up the big bucks to buy my daughter a MacBookPro for university. I just didn't want to get that panic call when something went wrong with the MShaft machine and a paper or assignment is due. Plus, OS X is unix so I'm good with that.



Re: Lack of support for Linux
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2010-01-14 14:53:40

fblamauer wrote:

I find that installing windows is a major pain, having to install RAID or SATA drivers before the installation of the OS even starts, service packs that have to be installed in sequence and then loading drivers....I hate it and it's a wast of very valuable time!

Interesting.  I have SATA hard disks and optical drives.  Didn't have to do a thing to install XP other than put the CD in the drive and boot away.  No hard questions to answer.  Service packs, updates, etc, all install automatically just like they do on Ubuntu.  Granted, updates to apps are an inividual thing and not from a single source, but most if not all are self updating too.



Re: Lack of support for Linux
by fblamauer on 2010-01-14 15:11:36

You sure they are SATA, Serial ATA as compared to PATA, Parallel ATA? For SATA drives you have always had to hit F6 and preload the SATA controller driver, same with SCSI drives. That's the way it is unless they have made a recent change that I don't know about. Most windows drivers require SPK2 as a pre-req so if the installer doesn't recognize your network card then you're kind of screwed. Exception being if you are using a pre-built customized install CD with the SPK already encorporated or it's a custom CD for specific hardware like a Dell or HP machine.



Re: Lack of support for Linux
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2010-01-14 15:15:56

Yes, they are SATA.  And my install CD of XP Home came with SP2 already bundled.  Of course, I'm on SP3 right now.  Didn't need to press F6 while installing.

Although my wife's machine (my old one) is equipped with XP Pro.  And the install CD I  have for that didn't include any service pack.  No fear.  It detected the network card and everything else, no problem.  That one just has regular ATA drives, though.



Re: Lack of support for Linux
by captainbob on 2010-01-14 15:18:39

The updating is the same on all Deb based machines.  Debian, Ubuntu, Xandros, its basically the same.



Re: Lack of support for Linux
by captainbob on 2010-01-14 15:21:07

Wow... Windows did it all for you...  How nice.



Re: Lack of support for Linux
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2010-01-14 16:31:50

captainbob wrote:

Wow... Windows did it all for you...  How nice.

Shouldn't it?



Re: Lack of support for Linux
by captainbob on 2010-01-14 16:38:00

Theres something to be said for Army training.

Its tough, but it stays with you a lifetime.



Re: Lack of support for Linux
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2010-01-29 10:18:01

linux.jpg

This was on my calendar today and it reminded me of this thread.  No offense meant.  I just thought it was funny and topical.



Re: Lack of support for Linux
by nuser101 on 2010-01-29 11:05:28

Coming soon, to a galaxy near you, the Mesa Mark V-Lx.

Features the Mark V head with an embedded micro-sharc running linux, with an SD card to store all of your presets and footswitch assignments. The provided 1GB SD card holds thousands of presets, but can be expanded with OTC cards available at Sam's and Best Buy.

  • 10/45/90 Watts
  • 4x6L6 (or 4xEL34), 7x12AX7, 1x5U4, Moana Pipeline
  • Bias Select Switch (6L6/EL34,Liberal/Conservative)
  • Fixed Bias for Consistent, Maintenance Free Performance (Variable Bias available at 2 or 4 year intervals)
  • Full Power/Variac Power Switch (Optional Power Down Switch for Quaalude synthesis at end of gig)
  • 3 Fully Independent Channels with 9 Modes and independent "hard" switch for Tequila IV administration with optional tube).
  • Sharc Processor (400 MHz/2400MFLOPS, with auto replace feature that flies upgrade in upon user request)
  • Midi-Assignable Footswitch
  • Midi-input for independent floorboard controller
  • Footswitchable, Channel Assignable or True Bypassable All-Tube FX Loop with Send Level Control (over all channels when activated)
  • Output Level Control (over all channels when activated, mind control available at extra cost)
  • Footswitchable Solo Level Control (Optional "11" stomp button for searing leads)
  • True "Hard" Bypass Switch removes FX Loops, Output Level & Solo Level Controls from signal path (optional hands free controller removes fingers from path)
  • Tuner Output w/Footswitchable Mute (Available 60s mode variable frequency output enables atonal tuning mode for authentic garage band sound)
  • Slave Out w/Level Control (Mesa "Roadie King" Slave available at additional cost of room, board and hallucinogens - alcoholic model available Novembe 2010)
  • Fan Cooled with On/Off Switch (WhisperJet fan with turbo-cool optional)
  • External Switching Jacks for Channels 2, 3 (channel 1 is default), EQ & Solo
  • Aluminum Chassis (GOLDACHROME availability November, 2010)
  • 4x4 — 8 Button Footswitch (CTRL ALT DEL cancel button available at extra cost)
  • Casters (ABEC-9 EZ-ROLL bearings available at extra cost)
  • Slip Cover (Gold Leaf available at extra cost)


Re: Lack of support for Linux
by captainbob on 2010-01-29 13:21:46

Yeah Karl, thats just hysterical.

Not offended.

I seriously don't know why anyone wouldn't like to use Linux for recording. I am liking this system very much.

I bought a Pod XT Pro off eBay, and I have all the amp models I need to use with this system.  No software necessary to use it.

I like the fact that I can slow this whole system down to adjust for latency.  How would you do that with XP?  In the bios?  Shut down, reboot?  I like this system because it has a specialized kernel that allows for this. Very easy to adjust on the fly.  Its important if you suddenly decide to add something to your effects rack.  Does XP have that?  I mean XP ships with a general purpose kernel, not especially geared for audio recording.  I've used XP a lot, but I am liking Linux a whole lot better.  Its a serious system. I like the fact that I can have control over what programs I can connect or disconnect with each other, or how I want to connect them.    I don't know what your impression of Linux is, but I think if you had any clue what so ever, you would find yourself a little more open minded.



Re: Lack of support for Linux
by captainbob on 2010-01-29 13:31:57

And now Karl is wondering...



Re: Lack of support for Linux
by spaceatl on 2010-01-29 14:05:53

So CaptainBob is a Space Alien?



Re: Lack of support for Linux
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2010-01-29 14:13:30

captainbob wrote:


I like the fact that I can slow this whole system down to adjust for latency.  How would you do that with XP?  In the bios?  Shut down, reboot?  I like this system because it has a specialized kernel that allows for this. Very easy to adjust on the fly.  Its important if you suddenly decide to add something to your effects rack.

I guess you can't do that with XP....but I wouldn't see why you'd want to slow your system down, or how that would somehow compensate for latency?  It doesn't matter for me, because I use a TonePort which essentially has that whole ToneDirect, zero latency monitoring thing.  If there is any latency, it's lower than 5ms, because I can't hear or feel it.  And with my prior soundcards, I could detect anything above 5ms.  Great product, that TonePort.  And it works flawlessly on XP.

Why would I need a specialized kernal in my operating system if I want to add something to my effects rack?  I'm afraid I'm not understanding here.

I don't know what your impression of Linux is, but I think if you had any clue what so ever, you would find yourself a little more open minded.

My impression is that Linux is a very good operating system for server based business applications.  It has a ways to go yet for home recording, but it'll get there eventually.  My other impression is that it has a significantly smaller adoption rate, by almost a factor of 10, than the Mac OS, which is small to begin with, though still in mainstream use and support.  I actually did install linux on my mother's computer once.  Ubuntu.  She kinda liked it, except for that it didn't quite support all her hardware such as printer, scanner, sound card, or video card.  Ended up having to move her back to XP.  Some day, linux will be an option for her.  It's light years ahead of where it was in the mid 90's when I first tried it out.

Hey, I'm open minded.  But you seem to have this air of superiority going on here, and you also seem prone to spouting techno-nonsense, and since it's my job to dispel techno-nonsense, I respond.  While I might have an open mind about the OS, it would seem like the big guys like Cakewalk and Digi don't.  Probably because they aren't interested in supporting a hundred different flavors of an OS that comprises less than 10% (and I'm being generous) of the desktop market.



Re: Lack of support for Linux
by captainbob on 2010-01-29 17:17:19

Because karl the more crap you add to your rack the longer it takes for your guitar strum/signal to filter through the electronics and get recorded on the drums you just heard in your headset. With this OS, when you adjust the latency the system slows. You hear the music in real time but the process drags to catch the delayed signal. You don't know what I'm talking about because your Tone Port did it all for you, with its whole "Tone Direct Zero latency monitering thing."  This is better because it does not rely on a Tone Port. Its the system, and you can use any hardware you like.

100 different flavors of Linux are all based on 2 main operating systems.  Red Hat and Debian. So your really looking at 2 different systems NOT 100 Karl.  And we already covered the legal confusion over what constitutes dirivitave work.  Its a legal issue and its not settled yet.

Ubuntu IS Debian with different cloths.You are nuts, Ubuntu supports everything, its known for that.  I have installed over 70 Linux operating systems, and the only problem I had with hardware detection was with Ubuntu Studio not detecting my M-Audio card. Its not a standard card.  But I agree, there was not excuse for that.  Sometimes there are audio problems, but you have to know how to configure the card.  Its not hard. I suspect you didn't have the right check mark by the correct box or something.

It will get there?  It is here.  It works fine.  Your job to dispel techno nonsense?   Your job?

I don't care about its adoption rate either.   There was a time when the police rode horses because the horseless carriage was not reliable.

Stick with Mr Ed, Karl.

You hate Linux, despite how you try to come off.  So hate it.  I don't give a shit.

Just stop the nonsense about not understanding, and "It'll get there eventually."  Both bullshit.

Before this thread gets off track again remember my purpose for posting this thread in the first place.

It was because of complaints about lack of support for Linux by Line 6.  I said to get creative and do your research and figure out something.

Its easy to use Line 6 hardware with Linux. You don't need Line 6 support.

The hardware works just fine with Linux.



Re: Lack of support for Linux
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2010-01-29 17:35:21

captainbob wrote:

Because karl the more crap you add to your rack the longer it takes for your guitar strum/signal to filter through the electronics and get recorded on the drums you just heard in your headset. With this OS, when you adjust the latency the system slows. You hear the music in real time but the process drags to catch the delayed signal.

My guitars get recorded on my drums?  I am so confused now.  You mean if I have a decent sized effects rack before the A/D conversion into my DAW, that I'm introducing so much latency into my signal that I have to somehow slow down my operating system so that I can hear it synched up with the playback?

Anyone else confused?  Or is it just me?  It could be just me.  I guess.  I don't know Linux that well.  I didn't know you could slow down the entire operating system so that audio playback will match your latent input.  Because your effects rack is bigger than Petrucci's and is horribly latent.  I am going to have to tell our sound guy next time we play to put in some kind of latency compensation device into his system, because his outboard rack contains way too much latency.  Maybe it should be a Linux box?  They can apparently travel through time.

The process itself slows down on the computer, but I hear the music in real time...  There must be some violation of the laws of physics there, for me to hear a delayed signal in real time before it gets played.

You're right.  I actually AM nuts.  But I just enjoy playing with you.  Because nuts is as nuts does.



Re: Lack of support for Linux
by captainbob on 2010-01-30 08:15:38

Yes you are having fun playing with terminology.  Would timing be a better word for you?

I see too, you add the word "So" to "so much latency", or "Horribly Latent"  in order to distort what I said. What do you think a low latency kernel is for?  And why do you suppose you would might want to use the adjustments?  Any ideas?

Its just an adjustment, and its pretty cool. Your Tone Port apparently compensates, and this is another way to do that without being strapped to a Tone Port.

You carry this air of superiority which is funny.  You stated in past posts that you worked in IT.  Yet you cannot even configure Ubuntu for your mother and finally had to give up.  Funny, funny stuff.  You had to give up on Ubuntu because it was too confusing for you.  LOL!

I don't work in IT, I have no formal computer training what so ever. I've done over 70 installations and never had a configuration problem that wasn't overcome fairly quickly. I've tried a whole ton of rpm and deb based systems.  I am just an end user, not a programmer. I got it all working just fine.  Its no big deal.

You are toying with my way of explaining things and having some fun for yourself.  But that really doesn't change any facts. You are also clinging onto ideas and things that were maybe true 10 or 12 years ago.

This is a nice system and it works good.  You know XP, and thats your comfort zone.  A lot of people are like you, they cling to what they know, its easier for them.  I've seen that a lot.

Others may want to try out this system, especially in Europe, where I guess they must all be nuts.  They may have some Line 6 support concerns, but they don't need to worry about that.  Line 6 hardware will work fine. 

For you Karl, I say stick to XP.  Thats what you know, its working.... don't touch a thing. God forbid you ever had to build a new rig from scratch using a new OS, new programs and all new hardware.



Re: Lack of support for Linux
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2010-01-30 09:04:45

captainbob wrote:

Yes you are having fun playing with terminology.

Yes, I am.  Because it's patently obvious that you don't have a clue how latency compensation works.  And that's okay, but you come across pretending like Linux has some incredibly special advantage over other OS in this area.  It doesn't.  It's got nothing to do with the OS kernel.  The TonePort's "ToneDirect" monitoring, is just monitoring the input signal directly before it hits the DAW.  This is unique in that you are usually monitoring the recorded signal after you hit your DAW, which will be latent by some number of milliseconds, but the TonePort eliminates that latency by eliminating the need to monitor the signal, post DAW.  The audio interface driver, in my case, the ASIO driver, reports its current latency values to the DAW software, which in turn automatically compensates by shifting the freshly recorded material back a few milliseconds on disk in comparison to the pre-recorded tracks.  Your OS kernel isn't somehow magically speeding it up for you so what you play and what you hear are coming out at the same time.  And I'm not sure what you're getting at about latency before your interface, in your effects rack.  Because that's so low it's just not a factor.

Linux is fine for what you're doing.  Never said it wasn't.  Just don't ascribe it magical properties that it doesn't have, which is what you've been doing since the start of this thread.  I'd love to see Line6 and others start supporting this OS, because I'm all about free software for home use.  My wife's computer ran Ubuntu reasonably well, aside from the sound card not being supported.  And yes, it isn't supported.  Did a lot of online research on that and found one person who had recompiled their kernel in an effort to get the same card working, with mixed results.  I even considered building her a system that would be completely Ubuntu compatible, just so she'd be free of all this virus worry nonsense.  But as it turns out, she has a considerable investment in Windows based software.  And there's the problem right there, going right back to your original point.  Not enough development or support for this platform by the companies whose software she needs or hardware she uses.

As far as my IT credentials go, since you brought them into question, yes, I've made a career out of developing for the Microsoft platform at the enterprise level.  But not Linux.  The reason?  Out of the dozens of State or Federal government agencies, dot-coms, or financial institutions that I've worked for over the span of my career since Linux was released, none have adopted that platform on the desktop or server side.  Not saying they're not out there.  Just saying this: extremely low adoption rate.  There isn't a financial institution out there that will touch Linux with a ten foot pole.  Again, not saying that's right, just saying how it is.  So yes, I'm not as versed in that OS as maybe you are.  So forgive me if I didn't want to play the game of trying to make it work with the hardware I have.  I just wanted something that worked right out of the box.



Re: Lack of support for Linux
by Closer on 2010-01-30 09:41:47

I think , today linux distributions such as Debian, Ubuntu, or SuSE should be treated as usual fully functional OS`es just like Win or Mac OS (not to mention about 64studio or Ubuntu Studio, which are made to be professional music or video producing systems) the only difference is that these are free, and as for Line6 approach, I don`t really believe it`s a case of lack of profit on linux support, because main profit is on HARDWARE, things as usb drivers, Monkey and GearBox are FREE, so I don`t see any reason not to devevlop soft for linux, if there would be linux support for Line6 hardware, more people would buy it. That is so simple... BUT! Today`s world of capitalysm and finance is not so simple, if there`s a free solution, that works (which would be PODs, Ports or plugins working native under linux), who would buy the commercial one? Ringing a bell?



Re: Lack of support for Linux
by captainbob on 2010-01-30 10:51:39

Not really, maybe you should go and start this thread from the begining. It was put up to address some people who had complaints that Line 6 had no Linux support.

My answer to that is that you don't need it.  The hardware works fine, you don't really need the software.

Unless its the low end model the Guitar Port, because thats all software based and won't work.

I said people need to understand Line 6 isn't going to turn their software into freeware, why should they?

Look up derivitave work.



Re: Lack of support for Linux
by captainbob on 2010-01-30 11:39:41

You are correct, I couldn't tell you just how latency compensation works.  I can say that when I adjust the latency setting to the most exteme setting I can see a longer delay in how my system reacts.  Everything. Its enough that I can actually feel the difference in how the system reacts.

You have said that it automatically compensates by shifting the freshly recorded material back a few miliseconds.  I couldn't tell you exactly how this is accomplished with a low latency kernel vs how the Tone Port does it, but the end result is the same.

And I've been saying that to have this feature built into your OS vs a piece of external  hardware gives you more flexibility in your hardware choices.

So I don't know what you feel you are accomplishing here other than to clarify things and keep this thread current.

Magical?  Hardly.

Ubuntu developers have gone to great lengths to make sure that Ubuntu has the widest level or hardware support, and is the easiest to install.  Not sure why you had so much trouble with it.  I installed Debian for my neighbor while I was drunk and listening to her jabber on about work.  I wasn't even paying attention to it and the install went fine, everything detected.  Someone eariler posted they had an M-Audio card, and XP didn't detect it.  There can be detection problems with any OS.

No, its not magic, but you have been pointing out that because of its low adoption rate and the fact that Pro studios are using Windows, that somehow, Linux is no good for that.  I am saying that if you are looking for a system that has many professional level features, that is free of cost, then consider Linux, because it works.

There is a delay, between development advances and adoption rates.  There is also a tendency for people to stick with what they know.

Quote, "There isn't a financial institution in the world that would touch Linux with a ten foot pole."

How about the New York Stock Exchange? 

Google....Institutions that use Linux


Heres another one:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_adoption

Yeah,its wikipedia, but feel free to cross reference.

And Hollywood...

Dreamworks, Pixar, Sony the list goes on.  Google: Linux in film production

NASA, the NSA, on and on.  Check into it.

These are serious institutions and serious companies.

No magical properties...just a solid reliable system.  Its what I've been saying..... Sorry you had so much trouble with Ubuntu....

Perhaps you should take your case to Pixar or the NYSE, or NASA and tell them Linux will be ready someday....   Tell them about the low adoption rates.

I say Go for it!  LOL!




Re: Lack of support for Linux
by linz on 2010-01-30 12:29:42

There are many high end, paid-for graphics applications available for Linux which are strictly closed source.  It's simply not true to say that you can't provide non open source apps on Linux.



Re: Lack of support for Linux
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2010-01-30 17:13:32

linz wrote:

There are many high end, paid-for graphics applications available for Linux which are strictly closed source.  It's simply not true to say that you can't provide non open source apps on Linux.

That's what I tried to tell him earlier.  See, what captainbob does is present a poor argument, you give him the right answer, then he pretends that this is what he was saying all along.  Then he changes the subject.



Re: Lack of support for Linux
by nuser101 on 2010-01-31 06:22:31

linz wrote:

There are many high end, paid-for graphics applications available for Linux which are strictly closed source.  It's simply not true to say that you can't provide non open source apps on Linux.

What you say is true, but as of GPL v3, there are perceived differences between what people do and what they have a legal right to do that have not yet been resolved.

The following is a lazy, but accurate quote from the wiki on the subject of GPL. More details can be found at linux.org.

************************

Linking and derived works

A key dispute related to the GPL is whether or not non-GPL software can be dynamically linked to GPL libraries. The GPL is clear in requiring that all derivative works of code under the GPL must themselves be under the GPL. While it is understood that static linking produces derivative works, it is not clear whether an executable that dynamically links to a GPL code should be considered a derivative work (see Weak Copyleft). The free/open-source software community is split on this issue. The FSF asserts that such an executable is indeed a derivative work if the executable and GPL code "make function calls to each other and share data structures",[35] with certain others agreeing (e.g. Jerry Epplin[36]), while some (e.g. Linus Torvalds) agree that dynamic linking can create derived works but disagree over the circumstances.[37] On the other hand, some experts have argued that the question is still open: one Novell lawyer has written that dynamic linking not being derivative "makes sense" but is not "clear-cut",[38] but that evidence for good-intentioned dynamic linking can be seen by the existence of proprietary Linux kernel drivers. Lawrence Rosen has claimed that a court of law would "probably" exclude dynamic linking from derivative works although "there are also good arguments" on the other side and "the outcome is not clear"[39] (on a later occasion, he argued that "market-based" factors are more important than the linking technique[40]). This is ultimately a question not of the GPL per se, but of how copyright law defines derivative works. In Galoob v. Nintendo the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals defined a derivative work as having "'form' or permanence" and noted that "the infringing work must incorporate a portion of the copyrighted work in some form", but there have been no clear court decisions to resolve this particular conflict.

******************************



Re: Lack of support for Linux
by captainbob on 2010-01-31 11:26:02

Nuser is absolutely correct.

I said there was an unresolved legal issue concerning derivative work. I said to look it up for yourselves.

And no, this does not offend me. A man talking to a cat.  The cartoonist undoubtedly feels secure in his knowledge that the wold around him is exactly as he perceives.  Thanks for the laughs.

linux.jpg

Not changing the subject....Karl was right, its true, I do not have the technological expertise to understand or explain exactly how a computer system performs latency compensation.

But thats really a small point.  Karl's whole arguement has been, nobody uses Linux because, #1, its a tiny market share, and #2 Its just not ready yet.

Here are some more examples of how Linux is ok for home use, but for serious commercial applications, this poor and unconfigarable system, is best left in the hands of anti capitalist idealists hell bent on adhering to some freeware philosophy....and hobbiests...

Doesn't Microsoft make servers?  Don't they make specialty apps as well?

IBM and Linux:  http://www-03ibm.com/linux/

http//:www.linuxlaptop.net/ibm.html

Financial:  http://ostatic.com/blog/the-washington-post-says-thumbs-up-to-linux-for-banking

http://www.novell.com/sucess/fnb_omaha.html

And this one: NSW Police: Don't use Windows for Internet banking  http://www.itnews.com.au/News/157767,nsw-police-don't-use-windows-for-internet-banking.aspx

ANDI MENTIONED THE NYSE HAS ADOPTED LINUX DIDN'T I?

Heres some more companies too:  Anderson Accounting Systems,  Banco BNL do Brasil,   Netherlands Foreigh Investment Agency, First Data Resources, Mivtach-Simon Insurance Agencies, Intech, on and on.

A far cry from, not a single financial institution in the world would touch Linux with a ten foot pole...

Heres a link to a list of industries that use Linux.  Click the highlighted listings, and you will get a page with specific companies.

http://mtechit.com/linux-biz/

Itstrue the adoption rates for the home desktop user remain very small.  You will never see a Linux ad on TV, nor will you ever find Linux in any store with perhaps, Perhaps,.. the exception of Red Hat, but I could be wrong on that.  People don't know what Linux is, nor would they even know where to get it.

But it makes for a fine desktop.  I have great compatibility with Windows, although true, I cannot run certain Windows/Mac programs.  But we covered that.

So nobody is using Linux in industry?

I'm not changing the subject.  This IS the subject.





Re: Lack of support for Linux
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2010-01-31 11:42:52

captainbob wrote:

And no, this does not offend me. A man talking to a cat.

Oh, but that's not just any cat.   It is Catbert, the evil human resources director.  Nor is it any man.  That is the PHB.  While not technical, nor particularly smart, the PHB is representative of management at many companies that refuse take certain platforms, like linux, into consideration.



Re: Lack of support for Linux
by captainbob on 2010-01-31 11:46:27

Quote, "There isn't a financial institution out there that would touch Linux with a ten foot pole.  Again, not saying thats right, JUST SAYING THATS HOW IT IS.

See, what captainbob does is present a poor arguement, you give him the RIGHT answer, then he pretends  that is what he's been saying all along.  Then he changes the subject."

Thanks for the laughs karl...

Look up derivative work...the questions that surround that topic, what source code you have to provide, vs what you don't,  is a major reason why some companies may not be willing to write programs for the Linux platform, at least until its been resolved and is CLEAR.

And because of that, I can understand why Line 6 might not be willing to do that, but then again, they haven't even gotten anything that will run properly on Windows Seven either.

I think thats enough.



Re: Lack of support for Linux
by Closer on 2010-01-31 12:00:35

Who says about freeware? Just because You make a soft for linux doesn`t mean it has to be GNU or GPL licenced, it can be closed source as well. As i said You pay anyway, You pay for hardware, drivers and gearbox come for free. Hardware works, that`s absolutely right, but how You re going to do amp modelling or fx on (for example) UX2 without PodFarm? Without software UX2 is only recording interface. PODxt can record only in the analog way without usb drivers, if there`s a possibility od digital recording, why not to use it?



Re: Lack of support for Linux
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2010-01-31 12:54:53

captainbob wrote:

but then again, they haven't even gotten anything that will run properly on Windows Seven either.

+1  I'll drink to that.  Not going to make the move to either 7 or Snow Leopard until those are settled in.  Doesn't look like it'll be too much longer, though.



Re: Lack of support for Linux
by captainbob on 2010-01-31 14:44:05

Well Closer, on the one hand,  I do wish more software could be safely made available to run on Linux without risk of a future adverse court ruling. On the other hand, not really sure I want third party software crapping up a perfectly good system either.  I would personally be very careful what commercial programs if made available I would choose to install.

I do not know if Line 6 software would need to incorporate any GPL licensed components in order for it to work on Linux.  I don't know. But for other applications that is very well the case. And there is a major cause for concern in doing that.

For consistancys sake, I'll include  quotes here...

Page 1 Jan 12th:

Line 6 would be required by law to give all their software away for free...

*Including source code is the same as giving it away. It could be legally copied then legally sold or given away.

Page 1 Jan 12th:

If a project is under the GPL then anything you derive from it must also be released under the GPL.  ....but anyone who buyt it must be provided with the source code and you cannot prevent them from selling it or giving it away for free.

* Thats my personal interpertation of GPL. No one knows for sure what parts or if all, fall under GPL if GPL licensed code is used WITHIN the project.

Page 2 Jan 13th:

A program that runs on Linux may tie into the kernel.  If the program has GPL lisensed components to make it run, then it would be a licensing violation.

*Again, this example, my own personal opinion....However its a valid one and is shared by many.  There are those who interpret GPL this way, and those who don't. It will take a court ruling to settle this.  Until then, as of now, this interpretation is cause for concern amoung those who wish to use GPL licensed components WITHIN their own programs.

On Page 2 Nuser supports this with his own posting.  Read it on page 2...

And I have said a couple of times before on this thread to look up derivitave work concerning Linux for yourself.

I may not always use the most accurate words when describing what I am saying.  Sometimes I make the mistake in assuming others will know what I am talking about, and don't feel the need to explain in great detail, I am assuming no one here is 5 years old, and would wish not to be treated as such. There are exceptions...

But with a few  exceptions myself, I have been as consistant as I can.

I am getting bored with this thread.

Its been explained Linux is ready for audio recording. I use it. No, I don't expect to see a massive adoption of Linux by the music industry anytime soon. I think audio studios will continue to use whatever they are using now, because its working for them. They will change only when necessary, and many because of PERSONAL PREFERENCE will move up the ladder to newer Windows platforms.  But I do expect to see Linux start to make inroads into the Music recording industry.  Because it works.

Its been explained that there is much concern over the topic of derivative works, and that is a major cause of concern for those who may wish to write programs for the Linux platform.

Look it up for yourselves.

Bottom line, and I've said this before, use whatever works for you. But some would like to spread "technomyths" about the unworkability of Linux, dispite it being their "Job" to dispell "technomyths" and dispite through their own admission, they know almost nothing about Linux. I guess if you have built a career developing for Windows, you have your bias.  But Linux is easily downloaded and successfully installed by a tiny, yet broad spectrum of home users who may or may not, have any specialized computer training. And dispite a relatively small adoption rate by industry too, it IS being used across a WIDE spectrum of industry for many purposes. For purposes of national security, space exploration, stock trading, banking, Insurance and the movie industry amoung others.

I am really getting bored with this thread.  Its been covered.  No point in going in circles.



Re: Lack of support for Linux
by captainbob on 2010-01-31 14:49:35

yeah, I like you better when your drunk Karl...



Re: Lack of support for Linux
by captainbob on 2010-02-01 11:59:40

Closer,

I'm not familiar with the UX2 or what it requires to work. Perhaps it does need Podfarm to work, I don't know.  My Pod XT Pro does not need Podfarm.  The hardware sends a processed signal out, and thats all I need. Yes I am currently using an analog output from the Pod, and the sound is great.  Miking an amp is still the best way, and thats an analog output.  Analog output from the Pod is fine.  Although I live in a remote area, and blasting my Mesa Boogie  is not a problem.  With the right amount of drive from the tubes and just the right touch of delay, run through my Cry Baby, my Les Paul sounds steller.  So does my Strat, and my Saga project strat. Problem is,  I sometimes like to record at night. I cannot crank this amp while the wife sleeps.  I like the Line 6 Amp Models, and they suit my sound just fine.

As for effects, my Linux system has a program that allows me to add effects, its called Creox c. So the Pod gives me my sound going in, and I can shape the sound later on using Creox.

I initally looked at a V-Amp, Behringer is thoughtful enough to make available Linux software to control this device, although not necessary. But I didn't have first hand experience with the V-Amp, by buddy uses one, and it defines his sound, onstage and at home. I was familiar with Line 6, and liked their sound very much. I thought the Pod XT Pro would suit my needs.  It does.

You know Windows Seven came out, so I thought I'd upgrade.  Turned out Line 6 software doesn't run on Seven, at least not yet. I wasn't gonna sit around and wait for Line 6 to get its act together.  And I wasn't gonna take a step backwards and go back to XP either.  I am a huge Linux fan, so I took a closer look at what Linux offered.

Took me a few weeks in my spare time to research this, get things together, overcome problems, research what hardware would suit my needs, order all of it and wait for it to arrive, then set up a working system.  Then get familiar with this new system.  Its a whole new OS, new programs, and new hardware.  It took a lot, but should keep me going for years to come.

And I am liking the flexibility of this new system very much.  So far, it seems theres nothing I cannot do.  So no, I had no plans to go back to XP, nor did I intend to sit around waiting for Line 6, till my fingers developed arthritis.  Maybe one day Line 6 will finally figure it out, and get current with modern platforms, Windows Mac, whatever...

And Closer...

Do you have some idea about Derivitive Works as it pertains to Linux development?  Understanding this is important, because its the point to this thread.

Linux software using GPL licensed code is up for grabs in the legal arena.  Its a wildcard.  I couldn't tell you as an end user with no official computer education, what Pod Farm would require to run correctly on a Linux platform, but if it requires ANY GPL licensed code to function, that alone should give pause to any savy business looking to protect its interests, should this topic ever make it into a courtroom.  And against that backdrop, I can see why some companies might be willing to adopt the attitude, that they just don't deal with Linux in any way shape or form.

Works for me!



Re: Lack of support for Linux
by Closer on 2010-02-02 12:08:40

Yes, I do have an idea about derivative work, but I found it a bit too complicated to focus on, at least I thought I did. For example linux version of Opera browser uses GPL`d Qt library to view windows like preferences, or such, but Opera itself doesn`t appear to be GPL`d. So what is the way of closed source VST plugin to use for example Ardour, without being GPL licenced? I can`t tell how the relationship between closed and opened soft must be to allow these to work together without legal issues. I use linux as well, for a long time now, and I`ve always been very enthusiastc about free music production software, and I also have plans to base my setup on 64studio or Ubu Studio, which I found to be very functional. Despite some problems like for example line6 problem... You`re right, there`s no point in waiting. And at last to make a little off topic, could You tell me what gear do You use under linux, I mean recording interface, and maybe some dsp hardware, if U have one?



Re: Lack of support for Linux
by captainbob on 2010-02-02 16:43:07

Hi Closer, I'm recording right now...

Yes it is a tricky subject. Nobody has any definitive answers yet.   Some folks include GPL in closed source software, but they take a risk. For some, the short term benefits may outweigh the long term risks.  Especially if they can make lots of money right now. Cross the legal bridge when they get to it.

Interface?  I use an M-Audio Delta 44 card.  I plug the analog out from my Pod XT right into the inputs.  I plug the Delta card outputs into a mixer so I can hear it.  Sounds better than my last rig. Or I mic an amp.  The Pod is good though.  Thats all I use.  No latency problems, before when I mentioned my system slows down, I was just testing the system with the lowest adjustment to see what the system could do. The slowness of the system on the lowest setting may have been a side effect, a drain on the processor.   I don't really know.

Glad you like Linux.  If you go with Ubuntu, use Ubuntu Studio 9.04.  I had problems with 9.10 detecting my M-Audio card, but the eariler version detected fine. But Jack is good to go in 9.10, same with 9.04.  Studio 64, I have no experience with. I read a lot of small recording studios use pirated software, because the price of software is so high.  Thats what I read.  So yes, the cost of software is a factor,and it seems to me, anyone on a small budget, wanting to stay on the right side of the law might also want to consider this free Linux software, so long as they have half a brain, and can overcome simple configuration challanges.

Hey, good luck.



Re: Lack of support for Linux
by spaceatl on 2010-02-03 09:46:37

One who does not know who Catbert or PHB is has not worked in the industry long, if at all...Or he is really Nick Burns posing as Captain Bob...MOVE!!!! Linux is great for tunneling porn on the company LAN without getting spotted...

nick_burns.jpg



Re: Lack of support for Linux
by captainbob on 2010-02-03 10:25:59

LOL!

Which industry are you refering too?  LOL!

I am a printer and I've been a printer for 20 years...

I said I was not offended by a cartoon of a man talking to a cat.  Its not infinate wisdom, just a cartoonist's idea of what is funny.

As far as tunneling porn without getting caught.....You 'da man!  You know whats best...LOL!  Any other tips???

Funny too, cause I found a dimebag of heroin in the parking lot yesterday, and brought it in and showed my boss.

Do I think he cares about porn????  Ha ha ha....

And ah....MOVE where?   This is my thread...

Back to the grindstone...stop slacking... Or shall I say....Stop wacking???

Ha ha ha



Re: Lack of support for Linux
by captainbob on 2010-02-03 10:37:58

ha ha ha!!

Yes Spacealt....In response to your statement on the previous page...yes I am a Space Alien....I am,... your father....and your mom gives a wicked...

Now put down the porn and go wash your hands!

Filthy...filthy

LOL!!



Re: Lack of support for Linux
by captainbob on 2010-02-03 10:48:20

Dude...seriously...

Relax about Linux. 

I mean, your not feeling threatened are you?   Its just a great computer system.  Use whatever you like best. Its what I've been saying all along...

Some even say Explorer renders porn pictures even better than Firefox.  Is that true?

Tell me your opinion.

Your the very best dude.

Your Captain



Re: Lack of support for Linux
by spaceatl on 2010-02-03 12:59:50

Just ribbing ya Captain...

Linux was something I got into about 10 or 12 years ago...But since then I have reached a point where the ideal OS to me would be the one I could not see or even know it was there...Just turn it on and Get R Dun with the apps, IDEs, music software etc I need to use!!! Nothing is at that point yet...How silly is it that people celebrate OS releases?...I think it is...But then I do know that it is people like you that have an active interest in evolving Linux (or anything else) that might one day make my wish a reality...OS evangelism is something I am not really into but I understand where it comes from and there is a need for it...It's just no one has made the OS I can't see yet...



Re: Lack of support for Linux
by captainbob on 2010-02-03 14:27:36

No, I hear ya Spacealt...just ribbing you too of course...

My boss is an Mit grad, and freelanses as a computer consultant between running the print shops.  Big Windows guy.  He informed me that Linux was hard to install and half the apps don't work.  I asked him when the last time he used Linux.  He told me 12 years ago in college.  12 years ago...

His mistake was to assume things stand where he left them.  A lot has developed in the last 10 or 12 years, and Linux isn't what it used to be.  All children eventually grow up.  My point is, there are a whole lot of computer people with excellent credentials, from excellent schools, spouting old news about Linux, as if its somehow current. 

Again, people should use whatever they feel comfortable using. 

I don't evolve Linux.  I am a printer, I just use it at home.  But that is kinda my other point to those who are claiming linux is so hard to configure, or that it doesn't work.  Usually the people telling me that, tell me that with the authority of their credentials behind them, ie, MIT, 15 years Windows software development, whatever.  Well If I can use it with no formal computer training, and get everything working, then whats the deal?

They're holding onto past truths.

My interest is not evangelism, I don't need to save Linux, Linux isn't going anywhere, its here to stay. I am interested in telling people who have actually heard of Linux, to stop listening to the so called experts, and give it a try today if you want to.  Because it works.

It simply gives people more options.  Windows costs a lot of money with all the programs, Mac is even more...And I like Mac.  But not everyone is up for spending hundreds on software that costs pennys to reproduce. And not everyone is ok with pirating software either. Try Linux if you want to, if not, don't. 

My only celebration of a Linux OS release is to get totally drunk, then install it. 

I'm just saying, don't hold your breath waiting for commercial apps.  You can use Line 6 hardware with Linux.  Sounds as good as micing an amp. Stop complaining about Line 6.  They make excellent hardware.

That was my whole point to this thread.

Good luck in your quest...



Re: Lack of support for Linux
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2010-02-03 14:39:05

captainbob wrote:


My interest is not evangelism ... I am interested in telling people who have actually heard of Linux, to stop listening to the so called experts, and give it a try today if you want to.

If it quacks like a duck...

Just pullin your chain, captain!



Re: Lack of support for Linux
by spaceatl on 2010-02-03 15:06:59

Speaking of beer...Just replace Unix with Linux Captain...This is an oldie....Sorry for the re-hash Karl....

If Operating Systems Were Beer

DOS Beer:
Requires you to use your own can opener, and requires you to read the
directions carefully before opening the can. Originally only came in an 8-oz.
can, but now comes in a 16-oz. can. However, the can is divided into 8
compartments of 2 oz. each, which have to be accessed separately. Soon to be
discontinued, although a lot of people are going to keep drinking it
after it's
no longer available.
    
Mac Beer:
At first, came only a 16-oz. can, but now comes in a 32-oz. can. Considered by
many to be a "light" beer. All the cans look identical. When you take one from
the fridge, it opens itself. The ingredients list is not on the can. If you
call to ask about the ingredients, you are told that "you don't need to know."
A notice on the side reminds you to drag your empties to the trashcan.
    
Windows 3.1 Beer:
The world's most popular. Comes in a 16-oz. can that looks a lot like Mac
Beer's. Requires that you already own a DOS Beer. Claims that it allows you to
drink several DOS Beers simultaneously, but in reality you can only
drink a few
of them, very slowly, especially slowly if you are drinking the Windows
Beer at
the same time. Sometimes, for apparently no reason, a can of Windows Beer will
explode when you open it.
    
OS/2 Beer:
Comes in a 32-oz can. Does allow you to drink several DOS Beers
simultaneously.
Allows you to drink Windows 3.1 Beer simultaneously too, but somewhat slower.
Advertises that its cans won't explode when you open them, even if you shake
them up. You never really see anyone drinking OS/2 Beer, but the manufacturer 
(International Beer Manufacturing) claims that 9 million six-packs have been
sold.
    
Windows 95 Beer:
You can't buy it yet, but a lot of people have taste-tested it and claim it's
wonderful. The can looks a lot like Mac Beer's can, but tastes more like
Windows 3.1 Beer. It comes in 32-oz. cans, but when you look inside, the cans
only have 16 oz. of beer in them. Most people will probably keep drinking
Windows 3.1 Beer until their friends try Windows 95 Beer and say they like it.
The ingredients list, when you look at the small print, has some of the same
ingredients that come in DOS beer, even though the manufacturer claims that
this is an entirely new brew.
    
Windows NT Beer:
Comes in 32-oz. cans, but you can only buy it by the truckload. This causes
most people to have to go out and buy bigger refrigerators. The can looks just
like Windows 3.1 Beer's, but the company promises to change the can to look
just like Windows 95 Beer's - after Windows 95 beer starts shipping. Touted as
an "industrial strength" beer, and suggested only for use in bars.
    
Unix Beer:
Comes in several different brands, in cans ranging from 8 oz. to 64 oz.
Drinkers
of Unix Beer display fierce brand loyalty, even though they claim that all the
different brands taste almost identical. Sometimes the pop-tops break off when
you try to open them, so you have to have your own can opener around for those
occasions, in which case you either need a complete set of instructions, or a
friend who has been drinking Unix Beer for several years.
    
AmigaDOS Beer:
The company has gone out of business, but their recipe has been picked up by
some weird German company, so now this beer will be an import. This beer never
really sold very well because the original manufacturer didn't understand
marketing. Like Unix Beer, AmigaDOS Beer fans are an extremely loyal and loud
group. It originally came in a 16-oz. can, but now comes in 32-oz. cans too.
When this can was originally introduced, it appeared flashy and colorful, but
the design hasn't changed much over the years, so it appears dated now.
Critics
of this beer claim that it is only meant for watching TV anyway.
    
VMS Beer:
Requires minimal user interaction, except for popping the top and sipping.
However cans have been known on occasion to explode, or contain extremely un-
beer-like contents.  Best drunk in high pressure development
environments. When
you call the manufacturer for the list of ingredients, you're told that is
proprietary and referred to an unknown listing in the manuals published by the
FDA.  Rumors are that this was once listed in the Physicians' Desk
Reference as
a tranquilizer, but no one can claim to have actually seen it.



Re: Lack of support for Linux
by pbear5 on 2010-02-04 11:29:42

man, i had forgotten all about OS/2!



Re: Lack of support for Linux
by spaceatl on 2010-02-04 13:36:16

That was actually a very stable OS...Windows NT managed to kill it...Among the reasons that I got a free copy of Windows NT 4.0 when I bought my MS C++ 5.0 IDE...Came in the box...OS/2 was a bit pricey as I remember it...Damn, was that really 15 years ago?



Re: Lack of support for Linux
by captainbob on 2010-02-05 07:59:37

Ardour for Mac users... Check it out.

http://ardour.org/



Re: Lack of support for Linux
by spaceatl on 2010-02-05 08:29:12

That looks pretty cool...Thanks for the link. I will keep an eye on it until my time comes to change my workstation hardware...I am in an "It ain't broke" situation right now....Seems like it would support my interface & DSP hardware under OSX...These days it takes a PCIe->5 slot PCI extender box for me to upgrade my MB to one with PCIe only since my cards are legacy....So no matter the OS direction, that will be a pain in the arse for me to get the cards situated properly without moving to UAD-2...

If you have not checked out Universal Audio, I suggest you take a look...Sorry for the digression...Thier plugs are the very best I have ever heard...It is mindblowing to me that I have Pultec EQ plugs...They have some really nice analog gear also...Basically, one of the original Putman Sr. companies that you might recongnize is UREI...This is Putman Jr....

uaudio.com



Re: Lack of support for Linux
by captainbob on 2010-02-05 10:39:45

Thanks, I'll check it out...

I was just looking for a free DAW for a friend of mine that just upgraded to a Mac. All his old software is outdated.



Re: Lack of support for Linux
by DoctorWu on 2010-03-23 15:12:34

I kind of hate to drag this thread up again.  But I recently decided to give Ubuntu Studio a try on my HP 8530p laptop. I've played around with various and assorted distributions of LINUX as just sort of a hobby for about the last 8 or 9 years.  I do think Linux is really neat plus stable, especially considering that it's free.  However, after playing around with Ubuntu Studio for a couple of days, I'm of the opinion that something like this will probably never come into mainstream usage by just your average musician, singer/song writer etc.  It's not just because of the lack of driver availability and/or support by the various hardware OEMs; although that is perhaps part of the reason.  But mainly, it's because of the following:

I don't think that the average musician and/or music producer out there has the type of personality that rides well with an OS such as Linux.  Why do I think that?  Well, mainly because I consider myself pretty savy with computers and various computer operating systems.  But I did run into quite a few hurdles while experimenting with Ubuntu Studio.  Nothing that I didn't eventually figure out.  However, if I were just someone that was seriously considering making the switch to Linux (and not just a hobbiest fart around), I would've deemed my experience with Ubuntu Studio as being far too non-productive, as far as actually getting something recording and mixed.  And I did actually put forth considerable effort.  I can't even remember what some of the obstacles were that I encountered, but I do recall a few things; which I will here relate.

For one:  Many of the issues that I ran into involved the need to do a lot of online research before I could get certain things working at all.  That's actually not too big of a deal, because anything has some sort of a learning curve, right?.  But almost all solutions involved opening a command terminal and typing in some really, really long cryptic command; coupled with the fact that Linux is also case sensitive.  If you type just a single character wrong, or neglect to use the shift key where appropriate, the whole thing won't work, and you have to type it in all over again.    Couldn't they at least make it to where these lengthy commands were either all upper-case or all lower case?    And I found myself having to do this kind of thing over and over again during the course of my trying to get things up and running.  And I have a pretty basic setup, actually.  I can't even imagine if I had as much hardware as a lot og guys got.  I've gotten to know quite a few musicians over the years, and none that I personally know are typically the kind of people that would tolerate this kind of frustration for very long.  They just want to set up, record, tweak, mix down, and be done with it. Personally, I've never been someone that cares too much for command line interfaces.  To me, it's kind of like buying a fancy new car, only to find out that you have to get out and start it with a hand crank or something.  I know a lot of old-time UNIX gurus who all seem to love this kind of stuff.  But not me.  I would rather spend my time recording something than typing something.  For one thing, I'm very a lousy typist.

Also, with many of the various programs and audio/MIDI interfaces that I've been messing around with in Ubuntu Studio, it was never very obvious what you were supposed to do to make these nice little toys actually work.  Simply RTFM provided me with most of (but not all) the answers I needed.  But again, most musician types aren't real keen on delving into long, wordy, technical user manuals (including yours truly).  But they get by with using their DAWS because they can most usually kind of figure out what they need to do but just by looking at it and kind of playing around with their things.  Case in point:  My step-son.  He has a pretty nice DAW but he's that kind of person who will NEVER read any kind of an owbers manual.  But he has recorded many very nice sounding songs on his DAW and even did a great job with the mixing.  One might ask, how is that even possible?  Because with most commercial-based Windows and/or Mac software, the software developers spent a lot of time and they do extensive R&D and even use focus groups in order to assure that their software is as user friendly as possible.  Because with commercial software, it's a competitive thing.  Nobody usually likes paying big bucks for something that is confusing and/or has a hidious learning curve (although there's some commercial software out there like that, LOL).  So they design their interfaces in a way in which a person can pretty much figure things out just by looking at it, reading tool-tips, and by just sort of clicking around on things. My step-son told me that's exactly how he learned to use Cakewalk Sonar, LOL!

But with those Linux apps?  No way!!  You're going to have to spend a lot of time reading manuals, typing in long-assed commands, and etc.  Why is that?  Because when someone is developing free software, they're usually just trying to come up with something which works very well and is stable.  They're not going to cow-tow (spelling?) to people that are too lazy to read a manual.  Plus, most of the time even their manuals are extremely cryptic to read.  And that's because these programmers are persons who are very technical, and they a whole lot about what they are doing.  And, they really just don't feel like having to explain everything in pure layman's terms.  I mean come on!  I'm giving this out for free!  Why should I have to also try and explain everything.  Either figure it out yourselves, or just don't use it.  They have no commercial "motivation" at all.

There are some other negative experiences that I encountered.  But I've already made this thread way too long and so I doubt that anyone will even bother reading, LOL!.  But I just wanted to relate some of the things that I experienced personally.  I still think Linux is great!  But I'm just not so sure that it's quite "musician friendly" yet, IMHO.



Re: Lack of support for Linux
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2010-03-23 17:29:03

On the positive front, my wife's computer contracted it's last Windows virus ever.  I say last because I got so fed up with her Windows machine (and only hers, because mine NEVER gets infected) getting viruses, trojans, etc, even though it was protected on multiple fronts (because she's not quite savvy enough to know what is safe and what isn't) that I wiped out her machine and gave Ubuntu 9.10 a try.

To my surprise, it detected all of her hardware on the first try, which is a damn sight better than it did the last time I tried installing it (somwhere around 7 or 8...Gutsy Gibbon?  The cutesy animal names are too much for me.)  Video card, network, and even sound all worked out of the box.  She was already used to OpenOffice, Firefox, and Thunderbird, which was pretty much all she used in Windows anyway.  So she actually likes it!  For her, this is the perfect operating system.  She really wants a laptop, so I might surprise he on her birthday with a good, inexpensive, $300 laptop and put Ubuntu on it.  Then she can surf the web wirelessly until her heart's content.



Re: Lack of support for Linux
by captainbob on 2010-03-24 09:23:21

Well I am glad thats its working fine.  Ubuntu and Debian and most popular distros usually detect harware just fine.  The problems you had in the past were somewhat unusual. There are the bugs too.  When it should work but won't. It is good for web surfing, I checked my Deb system on a security site months ago after tweaking the firewall, and it rated as extremely secure.  It should be good for her purposes.

If she likes it thats good, she should have no more trouble with viruses. Kinda like what Dr Wu was saying about music software, most home computer users don't want to become security pros just to web surf.  I guess no matter which direction we go, there will be things we need to learn in order to use our systems the best way. My neighbor didn't even realize that her subscription to Norton, was only for a period of time.  It stopped updating a couple years ago, and after struggling with cronic bad performance, she got the blue screen. She had Norton, and thought she was. "All set."  And she says to me, "What do you mean when you say I need to UPDATE?"

Just the way things are.

And I know what you are saying Dr Wu.  I agree, there is a real learning curve, and most musicians just want to plug in and play. It gets easier once you have learned some things and I still have a lot to learn myself.  But I can see how someone not caring either way what OS they recorded with, might be tempted to just try something easier. I like Linux, so I put some extra effort in.  I have a couple friends who are guitarists.  One of them is using Reaper on a Macbook.  He's having all kinds of problems with distortion when he lays the effects on.  He's a musician, not a computer guy, so he's ripping his hair out.  Home recording you need some talant in both music and engineering so to speak, and most musicians just want to play. With software that is developed to be sold,  I think the programmers work with the marketing guys, or whoever,  and try to make it more intuitive.  With Linux, its just the developers, and what seems like common knowledge to them, may excape the average home user. I have found some things that the average user would have no way of knowing, and required google searches to figure out. Shouldn't be like that.

I do wish Linux was more intuitive.  But its in constant development, and I think it will become easier. 

For me, I don't like the way Jack hogs the resources.  Its a real pig. And connecting it properly can be confusing until you play with it and figure it out.  I can see how it could put some people off. I like they way you can connect so may programs to work together, its cool, and its different.

Its just an option.  There are pros and cons.

Lets try to play nice today....

Good luck.



Re: Lack of support for Linux
by DoctorWu on 2010-03-24 09:56:45

Karl,

You know, that's an excellent idea for me as well because my wife is exactly the same way.  If anything says "Click on me" she clicks on it, LOL!   The desktop PC we have in our home office has a 1 Terabyte hard drive.  So there's plenty of room to make it a dual-boot system.  She won't get any viruses using Linux, that's for sure.



Re: Lack of support for Linux
by captainbob on 2010-03-24 09:59:48

I see Dr Wu you mentioned using the command line to solve some problems. That shouldn't be necessary. 

I am thinking you are using version 9.10? 

If so, if I can remember, I believe 9.10 has a bug in Jack.  If you actually got 9.10 to work, you are a better man than I.  I too tried the work arounds with the code, but no dice. It seems what works for one person doesn't always work for another. May have something to do with the particular daily image that was downloaded, and what kind of partial fixes were added later.    It may be fixed now I don't know, the image I downloaded was back in Dec, I don't know if you grabbed the newest one or not.  It may still be broken for all I know.  I also tried version 8.04, Jack worked but I had sound card detection problems that could not be overcome.

These bugs in a "stable" release are unacceptable.  I mean in 9.10 how could they release a music recording distro with its most important component Jack, being so crippled with a bug that it won't even launch.  Without Jack, the whole distro is useless for audio recording. 

That was never the intention when they decided to create Ubunbtu Studio. They never intended on us having to add code just to make a program launch.  I think these guys sometimes get so lost in their own thinking about why it SHOULD be working, that they become deaf to the complaints that it ISN'T working.  I have seen the excuses posted, but no fix. 

I took the easy way out.  I read some reveiws from people with the same hardware set up I have, who had sucess.

So I tried version 9.04, and everything worked right out of the box like its supposed to. No workaround necessary. You know, when it works, it works great, but these bugs are unacceptable.  Its unfortunate, but it will continue to evolve.

If you got 9.10 to work...I tip my hat.



Re: Lack of support for Linux
by DoctorWu on 2010-03-24 11:04:43

captianbob,

Actually, I did get everything to work except the Intel wireless card in my HP laptop.    The Jack module seemed to work great because I did try it out with a couple of the software synthesizers and a couple of audio/mixer things of which their names seem to escape me at the moment.  Again, I have way too much time and money invested into my Windows based DAW, so I'm not seriously considering making the switch to Linux at this point.   But IT has been my "day job" and profession for 20 years now and therefore I'm just kind of an incurable computer nerd, LOL!   I love playing around with different Linux distros just for fun.  There's some fantastic stuff out there and it always blows my mind that it's free.

BTW, there's no reason to tip your hat to me for getting Jack working because it was actually one of the things that worked right off the bat.  I think it has to do with the fact that each individual computer model is wildly different and what may work great in Linux with one may not work at all in another.  I really wanted/needed to get my wireless card working on my laptop so I did a lot of online research, mostly on the Ubuntu forums but others as well.  Again, it always amazes me how all these Linux experts that frequent those forums know all this really, really complicated command line stuff.  How in the heck do they remember all those commands.  And it's not like any of it even resembles any plain English (or whatever language) words.  Just a bunch of jibberish to me.  That has been the major stumbling block for me regarding whether or not I should seriously make the switch to Linux.

If everything is working fine with a Linux distro, that's great!   It's a stable OS, it's really cool and innovated, and it's free.  But if you ever start to have problems, and eventually you will, there's almost never a quick simple fix for it.  To fix it always seems to require an extensive knowledge of the Linux command line terminal interface, as I've already mentioned here.  Not only do I not have time to learn all of these hundreds of cryptic commands, I really don't even want to.  As a result,  anytime I've had problems with one of my Linux distros, my only solution was to completely rebuild the OS from scratch.  Not good. 

I rarely, if ever, have to rebuild any of my Windows based PCs.  Of course, I have a very nice advantage of being a seasoned pro per Windows based systems.  I'm not saying that I never have any problems Windows.  It's just that I can always find the problem and fix it fairly quick and without the need to completely re-image my PC.  The issue I'm having with my Wireless driver not working in Ubuntu Karmic (9.10) is a prime example.  First of all, I've never had any problems with this particular wireless card before, and I think it's one of the best ones I've ever used actually (Intel Wireless 5300).  But after reading all this stuff these guys on the Ubuntu forums have posted, it's like their personal opinion is that this is just not a very good wireless card, or it has a bug or something.  Again, I'd never had any problems it before.   But I've printed out page after page of postings/suggestions from those Ubuntu forums.  I've also typed in line after line of lengthy Linux commands and switches (as per their suggestions); but nothing so far has worked.  The wireless card still does not work.  In fact, the problem appears to be even worse, as my laptops doesn't seem to see the wireless card at all at this point.

I certainly hope this doesn't sound like I'm poking fun of Linux, or that I don't think it's very good and etc.  I'm still very impress with a lot of things about it.  But I just don't ever see myself making the switch; at least not until they make it a little more user friendly.  And BTW, they've made leaps and bounds in that area over the last few years.  I can definitely say that!! 



Re: Lack of support for Linux
by digideus on 2010-06-22 06:26:31

More fuel for the fire....

I am originally an IT engineer from the 1980s.  I started using IBM midrange computers (that were as big as a car!) and watched the PC evolve from a novelty monochrome 8 bit clunky box to the massivly powerful machine it is today.  Up until last week, I ran Windows (every flavour) on my home machine.  I was of the opinion that Linux was "cool, but not quite there yet" while I am still firmly of the opinion that Apple products are twice the price for half the power, and I am not a fan!.

As for Linux, with every new release of the major distributions, I would happily play with it to see what it was like.  Of course, like every good IT tech, I keep a copy of a Linux LiveCD handy in case I need to access a machine where Windows died a horrible death (they do that a lot you know!)  and the Parted Magic distro is a life saver, as is the Smoothwall linux firewall I run on an old P3...  Yes, I dabble with the mystic arts of "Linux doing a better job than Windows for things that are important"

So, last week, my home PC got infected with a horrible virus that killed the windows installation.  The registry got corrupted, my browers got hijaaked and i lost data...  This was a surprise as my anti-virus, firewall, anti-intrusion software, Anti-pop-up software, spyware scanner and the couple of other programs that I use to protect my stuff didnt detect it!

Ok, so the data was recoverable (Back-ups are my religion!), but the fact is that an OS that is wide open to reinfection where the numerous bits of software that I run to prevent infection wont stop is clearly not acceptable.  The £149 I spent on a Windows 7 licemce is basically money thrown down the drain, not to mention the money I have previously spent on Windows 98, 2000, XP (still my fave) and Vista (possibly the most pointless version ever!).  All this effort make me re-evaluate windows and I decided to try Ubuntu 10.04 for a time, running it side by side with windows on my PC.

Now, I am shocked.  Ubuntu does everything I need.  It even plays Diablo II (yay me!) but the ONE THING it doesnt have is decent audio...  Well, no, thats wrong.  It DOES have the awesome Audacity, which I used on Windows heavily.  After a little bit of checking, it has a DAW called Ardour which I installed (4 mouse clicks and there it is!).

What Linux doesnt have is VSTi compatability.  So how do I get my POD Studio to work under Linux?  Yes, there are independent drivers made by the community (and good on em!) but Line6 still refuses to make one.  Thats a bit like refusing to make left handed guitars, after all, there are only "so many" lefties out there, right?

So, I propose Line6 stop being sissys and pull their finger out and make a Linux driver.  After spending £149 on the POD Studio UX2, I would like some choice in the way I use it, and at the very least, Linux compatability will make everyone love Line6 even more!

PodFarm is a different issue, but theres enough 3rd party amp sim plugins around to keep me happy for now!  Who knows, One day LADSPA and LV2 plugins may be supported, but lets get the bloody thing working first huh?



Re: Lack of support for Linux
by DoctorWu on 2010-06-22 10:18:08

LOL!  As I was reading your post I was thinking that you must be my doppleganger from across the pond.  We have many similarities.

Well, save for one.  I'm still not ready to make a complete switch to Linux.  But I have a spare laptop hard drive that has Ubuntu installed on it.  My days off are Saturday and Sunday.  So I install my Ubuntu hard drive in the laptop Friday afternoon as soon as I get off work, and it stays in there until Sunday night.  So I guess I'm kind of an Ubuntu weekend warrior.



Re: Lack of support for Linux
by pbear5 on 2010-06-22 13:45:31

are the ALSA and/or FreeBob audio standards any good?  having a good audio standard would make it easier to bring in hardware companies.  the fact that they apparently have one standard for non-firewire and another for firewire is a bit odd.



Re: Lack of support for Linux
by digideus on 2010-06-22 14:30:13

Im not sure about the standards for Linux.  ALSA (Advanced Linux Sound Archectiture) seems robust and has a lot of development, plus it supports older cards as well.  Im not sure about how it compares to ASIO as a standard, although I think it should be fairly close (or getting that way).

There is the tried and tested JACK system for routing audio inputs and outputs via software has had a lot of development.

Freebob (Now called FFADO - Free Firewire Audio Driver - promounced "fado") is SPECIFICALLY for firewire connectivity.

LADSPA - or Linux Audio Developer's Simple Plugin API, seems the most developed plugin system, and there are already a heafty list of applications that support the standard under Linux, however by its own admission, the ability to write modern plugins effectively is beyond the LADSPA format, so LV2 has been developed to effectively replace LADSPA in due course.

This is all encouraging as it means the foundations for a major manufacturer to release Linux specific drivers and plugins is already there.  It may take a while, but companies like Line6 could build good relationships with developers in the Linux community to make their hardware appeal to a larger customer base.  Lets face it, the only reason people actually use Windows (or Macs for that matter) is that the software and hardware are supported.

Evidence of this is all through history.  For example, back in the 1980's, Steinbergs reluctance to release a 16 bit version of Cubase on the Commodore Amiga practically killed its ability as an audio workstation and allowed the Atari ST to become a part of every studios (and home musicians) Midi setup because it had a built in Midi port!  I dare not guess how many Atari ST's have been bought over the years, JUST because it had Cubase!

This is a prime example of how development on a platform creates a user base, and if Line6 products were usuable on Linux, thats an entire new customer base.  Hell, Line6 could even release their own Linux Distro specifically for Linux integration with Line6 products - Lin6x anyone?



Re: Lack of support for Linux
by pbear5 on 2010-06-23 05:28:30

although i'm not a big Linux proponent (see my earlier posts in this thread) i think you may have something with the idea of manufacturers creating their own Linux variants.  back when i was using Windows '98 modified with Windows Lite (i think that's what it was called) to trim some of the fat i thought that it would be great if Cubase (my DAW at the time) would just write an OS that you could boot into.  that would be as close to dedicated DAW hardware as you could get and it could potentially solve so many issues.  I believe that there are actually a few examples of essentially PC hardware based dedicated recorders but, to my knowledge, nothing really mainstream/affordable.  So Propellerheads, for example, takes Linux, strips it down to the barest of non-audio essentials and releases it to run optimized versions of Reason & Record.  personally i would love to just dual boot into a Tracktion partition where the OS is literally Tracktion for the best possible performance from my system--oh wait, isn't that kinda like what DOS used to do?



Re: Lack of support for Linux
by douglasOtwell on 2011-05-08 06:48:12

Not to revive a year-old flame war, but I'd like to add a vote for Linux support.  Most of this thread misses the point; it's not about which OS is better, or even more popular, it's about choice. And if a company is open and supportive, the user community can and will do most of the work in providing OS drivers. I'd rather have the good people at Line 6 building (proprietary) models and DSP code, and let the community help out with the messy driver details anyways.

I hope to use my new POD with Ubuntu, but I'll need to pipe it through my Fast Track Pro from M-Audio, who does work with the community to provide Linux drivers.



Re: Lack of support for Linux
by Polaris20 on 2011-05-11 07:57:12

I agree, it is about choice. I would likely use Ubuntu exclusively, if it had at least the same commercial app support that OS X enjoys. It's amazingly stable, and runs well, and is free, etc. However because it doesn't have this availability (not its fault, btw) I use OS X, since it's also POSIX-based. I still use debian and ubuntu on other machines and servers.



Re: Lack of support for Linux
by bsmco on 2011-06-21 18:06:26

Nvidia offers proprietary linux drivers for their video cards, all you have to do is accept the license when you install them. If I buy a line6 product, they don't charge me for the driver. Reguardless of the platform, they are just as exposed to someone trying to reverse engineer the driver for windows as any other platform. So what are the real reasons Line6 has chosen not to support my platform of choice?

rw



Re: Lack of support for Linux
by spaceatl on 2011-06-21 18:43:47

$$$....It always comes down to $$$...Based on data I see, I think there simply is not enough demand to warrant the development/support/legal expense of proprietary drivers on the Linux platform. If the endeavor can't be quantified as profitable, there is no reason to do it in a business that has pretty thin margins to begin with...Open source drivers?...no, I don't see that happening...IP is IP and Line 6 has a right to protect that as they see fit...I have no idea, but I bet Line 6 would not even look at Linux until the median market share hits at least 3-4% in the consumer market...maybe even 2%...but I am just guessing...business market would equate little I think...geographics, sure...but only Line 6 knows what thier sales data is...

Sure Nvidia makes Linux drivers...why wouldn't they?  $1 billion last quarter...that's an apple and orange comparison I think...

I would love to see Linux drivers on Line 6...that would be cool...I just don't see it yet...Chances are we would see an iOS driver before anything else and Line 6 is already doing stuff on iOS...

Here's a a few sources...I think these are current as of May 2011...This is just general and the geographics vary...

From Wikipedia

SourceDateMicrosoft WindowsAppleLinux kernel basedSymbianBlack-
Berry
OS
Other
7VistaXPAll
versions
Mac
OS X
iOSGNU/
Linux
Android
AT Internet [1]Apr. 201128.8%16.4%42.1%88.4%6.9%2.8%0.9%0.5%------0.5%
Clicky Web Analytics [2]May. 201128.91%12.52%32.37%80.90%12.54%3.16%1.28%1.25%0.11%0.37%0.39%
Net Market Share [3] [4]May. 201125.89%9.93%52.41%88.69%5.32%2.38%0.91%0.76%0.31%0.16%1.47%
Global Stats [5] [6] [7]May. 201131.31%11.81%43.19%86.71%5.98%1.85%0.76%1.01%1.80%0.74%1.15%
StatOwl [8]May. 201130.48%16.09%38.08%86.02%12.85%---0.70%---------0.43%
W3Counter [9]May. 201130.44%11.67%37.76%80.01%9.19%2.30%1.52%0.97%0.14%0.57%5.30%
Webmasterpro [10]May. 201132.6%16.3%37.6%88.0%6.3%3.2%1.4%0.7%0.2%0.02%0.18%
Wikimedia [11]May. 201129.00%13.65%37.70%80.94%7.90%3.93%1.56%1.19%0.19%0.47%3.82%
MedianMay. 201129.73%13.09%37.92%86.37%7.40%2.80%1.10%0.97%0.20%0.42%0.83%

Notes:

  • The 'Other' column is obtained by summing Windows 'all versions' through BlackBerry OS and subtracting from 100%.
  • AT Internet measures 23 European countries.
  • Clicky Web Analytics does not publish desktop/mobile split so mean of Net Market Share and StatCounter figures (5.27% mobile) used in lieu. Figures are averages over last 7 days of month.
  • StatOwl measures predominantly US web sites with "broad appeal".[12] Figure for XP includes Server 2003. Excludes mobile usage.
  • W3Counter shows only the top ten operating systems and is based on the last 15,000 page views to each of over 47,000 web sites tracked.
  • Webmasterpro samples over 100,000 predominantly German-language sites. Figures are averages over last 7 days of month.
  • Wikimedia uses 1:1000 sampling of its logs when deriving the usage numbers. Figure for Vista includes Server 2008; XP includes Server 2003.
  • iOS figures include iPhone, iPod and iPad.
  • Mac OS X is broken down by four of the sources listed above and all of them show that version 10.6 (Snow Leopard) is the most widely used.
  • Clicky Web Analytics, StatOwl and Wikimedia indicate that Ubuntu has an order of magnitude more usage than any other identified desktop Linux distribution.


Re: Lack of support for Linux
by neskweek on 2011-11-04 04:46:48

Some devices are already supported under linux.

http://sourceforge.net/projects/line6linux/or http://www.tanzband-scream.at/line6/provides a staging generic driver for a douzen of Line6 devices

Work is still in progress to make new devices up and running under Linux

And in general help is welcome : testers and developpers can help us making those devices work fully (like in windows or MAC)

Thanks for any support you can provide :)



Re: Lack of support for Linux
by GarethNelson on 2013-01-09 14:42:46

Karl_Houseknecht wrote:

spaceatl wrote:

Here's the rub...Linux only has a 0.61% - 5% share of the destop market depending on who's data you believe...I tend to think it's in the 3% area.

Some harder numbers for desktop OS based upon web client usage statistics (admittedly inexact) are

Windows: 90.22%

Mac OS: 5.93%

Linux: 1.04%

That really puts things in perspective.  As much as my Mac loving buddies who would try to convert me would like (and I must admit, it is an attractive platform), we're talking about a 15th of the market share that Windows enjoys.  It's no wonder that nobody writes viruses for the Mac or linux...because aside from the security implications in attempting that feat, there's a much smaller return on investment.  Same goes for software.  Mac OS-X is the most successful unix-like OS out there for the desktop.  Still, there's not nearly the variety of applications out there that there is for the Win platform.  I'm still waiting for Reaper to come out of beta for OS-X, and it's been there for a while.  Sure, you could argue ProTools but that's a big hardware/software investment.  And TonePort support for Snow Leopard isn't there yet either.  To make the switch, I'd need both of those things.

I played the "install the obscure OS" game many times.  First time was OS/2 Warp back in 94 or so.  What I found out from that little escapade, after I finally got my hardware working with it, was that there was no useful software available.  So about 15 years later when my mother's computer became wildly infected with malware and she had also misplaced her XP disc, I installed Ubuntu.  Admittedly, not bad.  It had OpenOffice, Firefox, Thunderbird...basically everything she used already.  But it had no support for her sound card or HP scanner.  So she ended up buying another copy of XP.

I'll admit, if it wasn't for needing good, commercially available recording software, Ubuntu is a cool option.  I'd install it on a cheap laptop in a second for web/email usage.  But if I had to go for something more fully featured and supported, it'd be the Mac OS over Ubuntu in a heartbeat.  In fact, when my wife's PC finally dies, she's getting a Mac Mini or a Macbook of some kind.

http://broadcast.oreilly.com/2010/09/debunking-the-1-myth.html



Re: Lack of support for Linux
by Odox on 2013-01-29 05:54:47

mac_pc_linux.jpg

We got at least PC and Mac to be friends!



Re: Lack of support for Linux
by TheRealZap on 2013-01-29 06:37:38

anyone insisting on using linux on a studio computer... really isn't serious about using a computer to make music...

doesn't mean they can't play, or rock my socks off... just means they should probably not bother trying to mix their music with their tecchnology.

one day might be different... today... not so much.



Re: Lack of support for Linux
by Odox on 2013-02-13 16:05:24

It's weird how much complaining there are against Linux. If people are happy with their windows and apple cores, then what is the point of complaining on another system? Make music instead.

I like my KB37 and I like Linux, then it's not so strange that I would feel good if they could be used together.

Line 6 would not have to do all the work themselves to make drivers. ALSA want to help if they only receive information and parameters for the hardware.

http://www.alsa-project.org/main/index.php/ALSA_Soundcard_Vendor_Information

Onthe software side there are some developers who understand that software can be compiled to several operating systems. Check this out

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qeH0i-M0tC0

style="color: #000000; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; background-color: #ffffff;">"one day might be closer... so much"



Re: Lack of support for Linux
by TheRealZap on 2013-02-13 16:14:01

hope it works out for you... but in TODAY's reality... it's a no go... and that's the simple truth.



Re: Lack of support for Linux
by spaceatl on 2013-02-20 14:20:44

yea, there was this plaform called Oak that was supposed to solve all of our embedded firmware family nightmares.....Then somebody decided the internet was cool and called it Java...yawn...Java...the new Cobol...




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