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X3 Live - COMBO and STACK FRONT (HIGHS LOWS) setting FAULT
by edstar1960 on 2010-08-23 02:14:16

I had to start a new thread as my original thread had been incorrectly marked as Answered : http://line6.com/community/thread/42223?tstart=0

Problemstill exists and I need help from Line6 Support!  Here is latest update:

Hi David,


Updated Flash memoy as requested.


Levels are now:


FLASH: 2.01

USB:     1.02


Problem is now WORSE !!


Now it totally ignores any setting I make to the HIGHS and LOWS on the COMBO FRONT mode after I have switched the unit on.

Even swapping patches doesn't get it to recognise the change.

However, if I swap my output mode to COMBO PWRAMP mode and then back to COMBO FRONT, it recognises I have change the HIGHS and LOWS settings.


This is broken.  I guess that returning it to the shop or repair centre won't help if its a firmware issue.  So - Please can it be fixed?    Thanks.


Actually - I have just experimented some more and I am really confused.  Now it seems to not recognise when I switch output modes, until I swap memory patches, then it also switches to the dialled in output mode.  EG:  I am on COMBO FRONT, I set everything flat and I have a very treble rich sound, I swap to COMBO PWRAMP and nothing changes, same sound coming out of speakers, I swap patches and suddenly all the treble has gone and its a very middle/bass type of sound. So I swap back to COMBO FRONT and it goes all treble again - then swap back to COMBO PWRAMP and no change still treble. Swap patch and suddenly its all middle/bass again.


What is going on?  And how can it be fixed?   Thanks very much in advance.


Update 3 - it gets weirder!   On my user saved patches the STACK PWRAMP setting produces a warmer more bass filled tone than the COMBO PWRAMP setting which seems to have too much treble. However, when I go to one of the pre-programmred Line6 sample patches that are already in the X3, the STACK PWRAMP setting produces a harsher more treble tone than the COMBO PWRAMP which now produces a warmer more bass filled tone.  Things seemed really messed up here.  Please help!  Thanks!



Re: X3 Live - COMBO and STACK FRONT (HIGHS LOWS) setting FAULT
by edstar1960 on 2010-08-27 11:41:15

Please could a Line6 support person answer this thread?

It is a real problem and does need to be fixed.    Thanks.



RE: X3 Live - COMBO and STACK FRONT (HIGHS LOWS) setting FAULT
by Line6Hugo on 2010-08-30 09:32:39

Please continue support for this at your other thread that has been responded to at the following link:

http://line6.com/community/thread/42692

Regards,

Line6Hugo



Re: RE: X3 Live - COMBO and STACK FRONT (HIGHS LOWS) setting FAULT
by edstar1960 on 2010-08-30 10:31:55

Thanks for looking at this Line6Hugo.

This is a different problem from the one described in the other thread and therefore I would like to continue discussing it within this separate thread.

Can this issue with the setting of the COMBO FRONT values as described above be recreated on an X3 Live at Line6 HQ?

Is it a known problem and will it be fixed with a Flash memory update?

Is it a known problem that can be fixed by sending off for hardware repair?

Thanks.



RE: X3 Live - COMBO and STACK FRONT (HIGHS LOWS) setting FAULT
by ricksox on 2010-08-31 15:24:36

Hello,

OK. I appreciate you being as descriptive as you can with your problem but I'm still not totally understanding the issue.

I'll set this up here to try and reproduce but I'm going to need you to help me understand what's happening.

I think the best way is for you to just give me a step by step account of exactly what you do in order to reproduce this.

We call this a "bug recipe" here in house. We usually number our steps like:

1. Power on POD

2. Go to....

3. Turn this....

4. Result is this....

Does that make sense? Can you put something like that together for me? It would really help me when I try to reproduce your issue here. Thanks!

Line6Miller



Re: RE: X3 Live - COMBO and STACK FRONT (HIGHS LOWS) setting FAULT
by edstar1960 on 2010-09-04 05:42:39

Thanks for getting back to me Line6Miller.

Sorry for the delay in my response - I have been really busy this week and have only just found time to create your bug recipe.  Here it is.....

Setup:   Guitar > X3 Live > 1/4 live out into front input jack of combo amp
         (Live out level switch set to AMP)
         (OUTPUTS, mode COMBO FRONT with LOWS and HIGHS set to FLAT)

1. Press OUTPUTS
2. Select mode COMBO FRONT
3. Select patch 1D (TREADPLATE)
4. Play some chords, a riff etc to hear what the setting sounds like
5. Press OUTPUT and adjust the amount of HIGHs to -100 so you can hear the difference and note that the treble is significantly reduced
6. Play some chords, riffs to hear the setting and remmeber what it sounds like
7. Select a different patch, for example 1A, play a couple of chords, hear the sound
8. Switch back to patch 1D, you should notice all the treble has been added back into the sound
9. Press OUTPUTS, check that the HIGHS setting is still on -100
10. Adjust the value of HIGHS down to -99 and back to -100 - it should make no difference, you should still hear all the treble
11. Change mode to COMBO PWRAMP - play a chord - it should still sound the same with the treble frequencies still there
12. Change mode back to COMBO FRONT - play a chord - and suddenly all the treble should be missing, and it is back to recognising the -100 value for HIGHS.
13. Swap patches back to 1A, and then back to 1D, suddenly all the treble is back in and the  value of -100 for HIGHS is ignored again
14. Swap to mode COMBO PWRAMP and then back to COMBO FRONT, the -100 HIGHS setting is now recognised again and the treble is removed
15. Turn amp vol to zero, Power off the X3 Live
16. Power on the X3 live, turn amp volume back up
17. Press OUTPUTS, note that the COMBO FRONT setting should still be there with -100 for HIGHS
18. Play a chord, note that the value is being recognised and the treble is lowered
19. Change patch to 1A and then back to 1D
20. Play a chord, note that the sound is still OK, treble still lowered
21. Press OUTPUTS, change HIGHS to FLAT, note all the treble back in
22. Change patch to 1A and then back to 1D
23. Play a chord, note that the TREBLE has been lowered again, and that the HIGHS value of FLAT has been ignored
24. Press OUTPUTS, change mode to COMBO PWRAMP and then back to COMBO FRONT
25. Play a chord, note that the TREBLE Is back in, and the HIGHS value of FLAT is now being recognised.

You can try this with any patches - I just chose the default sample ones to keep it simple.

Please let me know if you need anything else.

Thanks.



RE: X3 Live - COMBO and STACK FRONT (HIGHS LOWS) setting FAULT
by ricksox on 2010-09-09 14:11:02

Hello,

Thanks for this truly detailed recipe. I have not had a chance to try to reproduce but I will do so tomorrow.

In the meantime, let me issue you a support ticket so you can contact me directly internally and we can continue to troubleshoot this and see what's going on.

Q: What is a support ticket?

A: A support ticket allows you to directly correspond with a Line 6 Support Representative. An email will be sent to you from Line 6 containing a link if a Line 6 support representative determines that a ticket is necessary to troubleshoot your issue. Please follow the link in the email to view your open ticket to work one on one with Line 6 Support.

Please note: Sometimes support tickets will be filtered to spam and junk folders. If you did not receive an email from us indicating that a ticket has been created, please make sure to check those folders in your email host.

http://line6.com/account/tickets/view/

Line6Miller



Re: RE: X3 Live - COMBO and STACK FRONT (HIGHS LOWS) setting FAULT
by dylantan on 2010-09-09 20:24:03

Edstar, you could be right in what you are experiencing.

I did a simple test running through the steps you posted, with:

  1. Guitar > X3Live (no headphone connected) > Live Out (Left) to Vox Amp (clean);
  2. X3Live Master Volume at 12 o'oclock and Vox Amp at comfortable room level volume;
  3. My X3Live is flashed to 2.01;

And this what I did:

  1. Turned on the X3Live;
  2. Selected a '17A' patch to hear (register) the sound from the amp, first;
  3. Press OUTPUTS;
  4. Selected mode COMBO FRONT (HIGHs originally at -50);
  5. Moved HIGHs to Flat value (this is more pronounced, for me), played a note and noticed the Treble is significantly raised;
  6. Switched to a different '18A' patch, played a note; and then switched back to '17A';
  7. This time and if my ears serves me well, the Treble went back to what I heard at point #2, ALTHOUGH OUTPUTS STILL SHOWS 'FLAT' setting;
  8. For me, at step #6, I believe the sound output also ignored the HIGHs set value and behave like point #7;

Interesting. I have the X3Live for 2 years but have never adjusted this setting. With the behavior like that, adjusting as such, in a live situtation is a no-no. Hopefully, the fix also take cares of the LOWs and FOCUS as well.



Re: X3 Live - COMBO and STACK FRONT (HIGHS LOWS) setting FAULT
by dylantan on 2010-09-10 15:50:01

Hey, Edstar

Would appreciate it if you could drop a line here to update on the fix for this issue. Thanks!



Re: X3 Live - COMBO and STACK FRONT (HIGHS LOWS) setting FAULT
by edstar1960 on 2010-09-11 01:26:24

I sure will!



Re: X3 Live - COMBO and STACK FRONT (HIGHS LOWS) setting FAULT
by edstar1960 on 2010-09-14 11:43:26

Just to let you all know that Line6Miller followed my bug recipe but could not recreate the fault on his X3 Live.  So it must be particular to my unit and anyone else who can actually create the fault with their X3 LIVE.

Meanwhile, at a gig this weekend my X3 Live decided to cut out on me, it remained on but all audio was cut - no sound coming out at all. It started with intermittent drop outs but then went completely.  I powered it off and on and it recovered for a few minutes but then started cutting out again. At first intermittently, just a split second at a  time, but then completely cut out and left me with no sound.  The unit was on and all the leads were connected OK - but no sound.

I got it home and left it for a day or so and then tried to recreate the cutting out problem - but had no luck - it now seems to be working OK - however I don't know when it may decide to cut out on me again so I can't  trust it for a live gig so I need to get it checked out and repaired/replaced if necessary. It is only 4 months old so still under warranty, so I have contacted my retailer who is arranging to collect it and ship it back to Line6 to be looked at and hopefully repaired!

I will let you know how it goes.



Re: X3 Live - COMBO and STACK FRONT (HIGHS LOWS) setting FAULT
by dylantan on 2010-09-22 19:31:31

Interesting, as I'd like to know the duplication efforts conducted at Line6 (carried out on 1 unit or several?). I am from Singapore and was able to duplicate the "fault" you encountered. What is the chance of someone from the other end of the world seeing your post and deciding to duplicate it to see if it is true? < Sm:)e >



Re: X3 Live - COMBO and STACK FRONT (HIGHS LOWS) setting FAULT
by edstar1960 on 2010-09-27 02:32:38

I am expecting my X3 Live to be returned from Line6 repair today.  Apparently they have replaced the main board - which essentially means I will be getting a new unit inside my previous casing.  Once I get a chance to test it out, I will post back to let you know whether all issues have been fixed. Watch this space....



Re: X3 Live - COMBO and STACK FRONT (HIGHS LOWS) setting FAULT
by dylantan on 2010-09-27 19:06:49

Noted.



Re: X3 Live - COMBO and STACK FRONT (HIGHS LOWS) setting FAULT
by edstar1960 on 2010-09-29 04:11:21

I have tried this again with the repaired X3 LIVE - which has a complete new board.

First of all, I had to calibrate my volume pedal because it was now no longer muting the signal when at heel position - and when I used a flashlight to shine it near the sensor under the pedal the volume increased dramatically - this was not an issue before it had been sent for repair.  After calibration, it did work correctly again, muting the sound at heel, and using a flashlight to shine on to sensor only affected the signal slightly and it had to be at a certain position.

I tested this problem again and discovered it is still there.  Same symptoms.  Had to swap mode between COMBO FRONT and COMBO PWRAMP to get it to recognise values. 

Played around with it for a while - and it then seemed to settle down and seemed to have accepted the changes to COMBO FRONT, but then I thought I would just tweak the value of HIGHS, and once again it started ignoring it when I changed patches, and this time I just had to tweak the HIGHS value slightly for it to kick in.

Bottom line is that it is still broken.

I still need to perform some more thorough tests to check everything is OK - my initial reaction is that it seems to have lost some of its bass output (low frequencies) - based on what I remember the sounds being like from before - but I need to perform more tests to be sure. Some of the weird presets don't seem to sound as full in the lower frequencies as I remember.  I need to check this further.



Re: X3 Live - COMBO and STACK FRONT (HIGHS LOWS) setting FAULT
by dylantan on 2010-09-29 06:54:39

That, in my logical thinking, has to do with the software. Anything on the LCD has got to be software. Gearbox, as I found does not feature the HIGHs on its interface.



Re: X3 Live - COMBO and STACK FRONT (HIGHS LOWS) setting FAULT
by blairfamily on 2010-09-29 15:08:44

I'm experiencing the same quirky behavior on mine as well. Must be a firmware issue. After I cycle the power, it seems to recognize the low, focus and high settings as long as I don't change them again. Is that what you see on yours?



Re: X3 Live - COMBO and STACK FRONT (HIGHS LOWS) setting FAULT
by edstar1960 on 2010-09-30 02:37:48

Hi blairfamily - yes that is exact what happens with mine.  Both on the original and now the one with the replaced board.

I think it has to be firmware, especially as the problem did get more bizarre after I upgraded to the latest firmware levels.  However, if it is firmware, then why can't Line6Miller recreate the problem when he follows my bug recipe?  Is he on the same latest firmware level?  I would have thought so - so why does he not get the problem on his X3 Live unit?

I have now had the problem on two boards with the same firmware, and others out there are experiencing the problem.  There is no doubt that it is a fault but what is causing it? Firmware or a bad batch of hardware? I hope Line6 can get to the bottom of it and get it resolved.



Re: X3 Live - COMBO and STACK FRONT (HIGHS LOWS) setting FAULT
by blairfamily on 2010-09-30 14:51:28

Thanks edstar1960,

If you're interested, my X3L serial number starts with 21X3L1S58.... and all of my software/firmware is up to date as well (firmware: 2.01.0).

I'm curious, when you tested your X3L with the new board, did you look for the problem before modifying or loading any patches? I'm wondering if the reason that Line6Miller couldn't reproduce the problem is that maybe they start with a factory reset configuration when they test a bug recipe...not sure. It almost seems like the output parameters which are global are gettting clobbered by something related to patch switching.



Re: X3 Live - COMBO and STACK FRONT (HIGHS LOWS) setting FAULT
by edstar1960 on 2010-10-01 03:27:18

Good point blairfamily.

I believe I did test the unit with the default factory settings and then I reloaded my patches and tested again and both times found the same problem.

However, just to be certain, I have just reset my X3 Live to factory settings and tested again and problem is still there.

Furthermore, during this most recent test, I have discovered that the COMBO FRONT Settings get "locked in" or recognised when you swap banks.

It gets ignored when swapping patches within same bank, but if you step up or down a bank you will find that the values do get "locked in" - just the same as if you had powered the X3 off and then on.

I also discovered, that once I had swapped banks and "locked in" the settings - that if I repeated my initial test, which is adjusting the HIGHS value on a single patch and then swapping to another patch within the same bank, that the same problem could be recreated and the adjusted setting was ignored, however, I could now get the adjusted setting recognised by simply adjusting the HIGHS value by 1 and then back again, rather than having to swap to COMBO PWRAMP mode and then back. I also tested that swapping modes also got the value recognised for the current patch.  But then again once swapping to another patch within same bank the value is ignored, but swapping banks gets the value "locked in".

I have also checked my support ticket and noted that Lin6Miller has now been able to reproduce the problem and he is forwarding it on to engineering for resolution which will probably result in a firmware fix.  So we are nearing resolution!  



Re: X3 Live - COMBO and STACK FRONT (HIGHS LOWS) setting FAULT
by dylantan on 2010-10-01 04:42:02

Wow! Edstar1960 - 5 STARS for your persistence! All will benefit from it!



Re: X3 Live - COMBO and STACK FRONT (HIGHS LOWS) setting FAULT
by blairfamily on 2010-10-01 07:01:32

Nice!

The info about bank switching is a good workaround for now. Thanks, edstar1960 for all the time and energy you've put into this. Much appreciated!!



Re: X3 Live - COMBO and STACK FRONT (HIGHS LOWS) setting FAULT
by edstar1960 on 2010-10-06 04:14:25

Thanks guys.

Problem has been logged with engineering - however they can't tell us when or if the problem will actually be looked at.  They are also not sure if any further updates are planned for the X3 at this time.           But they have said they will escalate for me.        Here's hoping!

I have only had the X3 Live since May 2010, and I have just had the main board replaced on it, so I was hoping that support and bug fixing would be continuing for a couple of years yet.



Re: X3 Live - COMBO and STACK FRONT (HIGHS LOWS) setting FAULT
by dylantan on 2010-10-06 04:28:33

That's nothing short of bad news.



Re: X3 Live - COMBO and STACK FRONT (HIGHS LOWS) setting FAULT
by roblof on 2010-11-22 02:21:21

This is really disturbing

I logged this problem with Line6 in 2007 !!!!!!!! Check the old forum posts 18632 and 15572

It took them 3 years to wait for EOL and then tell us it will probably not be fixed since no more updates are expected....

L6Andy and L6Miller were involved as well so I can't see why you guys (L6) didn't recognize this problem from the start of this post

I'm Very Dissapointed indead!

  /--rob



Re: X3 Live - COMBO and STACK FRONT (HIGHS LOWS) setting FAULT
by markcm on 2010-11-22 11:07:08

Hey guys,

Sorry if I'm way off here, I don't have this issue but was reading the thread and didn't notice something fairly straight forward so I thought I'd ask.

In the "bug recipe", I don't see where you guys are saving your tone and you are switching between tones. I thought that the output settings were unique for each tone. Correct me if I'm wrong but don't you need to save each tone/patch to retain the modified OUTPUT settings?



Re: X3 Live - COMBO and STACK FRONT (HIGHS LOWS) setting FAULT
by edstar1960 on 2010-11-24 03:24:52

From my experience, it seems that the Tone 1/Tone 2 On/Off and Pan L/R values are stored with the patch, however, the Live OUTPUT mode (Combo/Stack/Pwramp) is global and affects all patches.   If you think it through that makes sense - the LIVE outs are hard wired to your output device so you can't have the mode setting switching as you swap patches - otherwise you would get bad results for each patch that had an Output Mode setting that didn't match the actual Output device you had your 1/4 inch jacks plugged in to.

Try it for yourself and see - set the Output mode and then save your patch.  Swap to another patch and choose a different output mode and then save the second patch. Swap back to the first patch, press the output button and see what output mode has been selected - you will see that it is still set to the value you chose for the second patch.

The problem reported here is only an issue if you want to dynamically tweak the HIGH/LOWS value for the Live Output Mode during a live performance - because the tweaked value is only recognised if you swap banks or power on/off - it gets ignored if you just swap patches on same bank.  So its not that big a deal but its annoying that it is broken and won't be fixed.



Re: X3 Live - COMBO and STACK FRONT (HIGHS LOWS) setting FAULT
by dylantan on 2010-11-28 15:04:45

I'm going to stick with my X3Live for a while still, though I've owned it for more than 2 years now. The HD500 appears attractive for now, albeit substantially contested in the 'DSP/Powering Up' department. Your work-around for this issue is good. Since I have gone to using PA speakers, I have now made EQ settings on each patch to compensate for this 'broken-but-unattended' function.




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