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HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2010-10-09 10:07:27

Here's me noodling around on some patches I just created.  Listen in stereo for maximum effect.

The dirty is a Treadplate and J800 in stereo with a screamer before and phaser and ping pong delay after.  The clean is a AC30TB and PhD Motorway in stereo with digital delay and analog with mod, and an analog chorus.  I think.  Edit: There's a digital delay after the J800 only in addition to the ping pong after both.  It's set to 20ms and 100% wet.

What I find very cool about the HD models is I didn't feel any need to go fooling around with post-amp EQ.  Not once.  These are recorded straight to disk.  No post processing.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Nick_Mattocks on 2010-10-09 10:22:51

Karl

You owe me a new keyboard.  When I saw the title of your post - I spat my coffee out all over my laptop keyboard in pure disbelief LOL

Nice tones BTW.  I like Are you sticking them up on Custom Tone?

Nick



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2010-10-09 10:27:06

Well, the truth is that I'm finally getting to know this unit well enough that I'm getting tones that are every bit as good as what I was getting on the Axe.

Sorry about your keyboard.

And I did sell my Axe-Fx.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Nick_Mattocks on 2010-10-09 10:30:54

I lied about the keyboard LOL.  I'm an attention seeker as anyone who knows me well will tell you. But you really sold your Axe FX???   Wow - now I am seriously impressed as I know that would have taken a lot for you to do.

Nick



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2010-10-09 10:36:24

Yeah, I got good money for it too.  Almost broke even.  Bottom line, I can get what I need for recording from this HD for sure, and even direct to FOH at church if I need to.  The AC30 on the HD is awesome.  Give the Axe a run for its money...at 1/4 of the price.

I've gone back to tube half stacks for the band.  Axe was complete overkill in that regard.  Sounded great, but real tube amps sound better.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by TheRealZap on 2010-10-09 11:23:25

odd that you are digging the AC30... cause that is the one i'm currently infatuated with...

i love the crisp well defined clean sound and being able to dig in get a nice overdrive out of it.....

not sure what part is HD and what part is DT... all i can tell for certain is that i'm digging it so much that i can't seem to put it down for more than a few minutes.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by timowens on 2010-10-09 11:42:44

That sounds really-really good, and if you say it can replace your Axe-Fx then that says a lot too (I know you have a good ear for tone). But personally, I am going to hold off for a while to see if they got all the hardware and software bugs worked out, I really don't want to go through another X3L experience



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2010-10-09 11:47:10

timowens wrote:

see if they got all the hardware and software bugs worked out, I really don't want to go through another X3L experience

Yeah, me neither.  Far as I know, the shipping firmware is as bug free as it gets.  And hardware doesn't appear to be a problem.  They've got those footswitches worked out now.  And the case is ALL METAL



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by John_BlisterTip on 2010-10-09 14:08:40

That is a hysterical thread title considering that other huge thread.

From everything I have heard so far it seems like Pod is fatter than the Axe. Im not saying its better because I haven't heard enough but I never heard too many fat tubey tones from Axe. Most were extremely hi-fi, which is its strength, very pristine, but too clinical. But my guess is that it can be dialed in, with all its settings, to a much more fuzzy tone but most users favored a less chewy sound.

What really chaps my azz is that Line6 didnt include more control over the amps internals---they dont seem to understand that was one of the huge draws of the Axe. When you can basically build your own amp..you have so many places to go if you dont like the default amps setting they use.

I also agree that a real amp, unless the DT50 turns out to be great, is the way to go live just because its so much easier to get the tried and true voicing that has fit in with a band, frequency wise, since--forever.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Mr_Arkadin on 2010-10-09 14:37:02

John_BlisterTip wrote:


What really chaps my azz is that Line6 didnt include more control over the amps internals---they dont seem to understand that was one of the huge draws of the Axe. When you can basically build your own amp..you have so many places to go if you dont like the default amps setting they use.

I for one am glad they didn't. I think things start getting really anal when you start down that route. How many people build their own Marshalls? You use what Marshall give you. Maybe you'll change the valves but that's it for most people. Really, too much tinkering destroys creativity. I don't think it's a case of Line 6 not understanding - maybe they understand their target audience very well (if they're like me). Frankly I don't want to be building a delay effect from scratch, just give me a friggin' tape echo and I'm off.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by ozbadman on 2010-10-09 14:41:32

+1, and I own an AXE-FX Ultra



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2010-10-09 14:48:29

Mr_Arkadin wrote:

I for one am glad they didn't. I think things start getting really anal when you start down that route.

Maybe that's because Fractal went completely anal by exposing properties nobody should probably ever mess with.  B+ capacitance?  Sure, I went as far as to modify the bright cap values to my tastes.  But power tube bias parameters?  I bought that modeler to get away from having to bias tubes.

If Line6 wants to expose some USEFUL additional parameters, that would be fine by me:

For instance:

  • Master volume (separate from input gain)
  • Sag

Just those two parameters would be enough for most tweakers.  If they want to include a bright switch and cap values, that'd be cool too.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Brion_Kean on 2010-10-09 16:04:51

Looks like you are not the only one!!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180571361450&fromMakeTrack=true&ssPageName=VIP:watchlink:top:en

AXE FX ULTRA MINT CONDITION

Item condition:Used
Time left:4d 14h (Oct 14, 201007:01:57 PDT)
Bid history:
Current bid:US $1,875.00


Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Dbourget on 2010-10-09 16:20:22

Man those tone sound good!

Dan



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by phil_m on 2010-10-09 17:19:21

This kind of reminds me of some of my friends who complain about the Iphone.  They go on and on about how they can root their Droids (which I actually own a Droid, but haven't rooted it), and they complain about Apple tying user's hands.  I think the fact is, though, the vast majority of people who buy phones don't care about that.  They just want a phone that works with the ability to get apps they like.

I have no desire to build an amp.  I hate changing tubes in my amps.  The limit of my customization as it relates to amps is changing the speaker in a few of my amps.  I don't want to change caps or pots - even virtual ones.  I just want to have quick access to some good core tones that inspire me to play.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by ozbadman on 2010-10-09 17:51:27

Lol. Hey Phil, the word "root" means something very different in Australia and as an Australian, I don't think anybody should ever root their Droid. I'm not even sure how that would work?



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Bersaghi on 2010-10-09 18:24:50

Sorry, do not know what "Axe-Fx" mean. Did you sell your  M9 or M13?

Thanks,

Emerson



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2010-10-09 18:27:18

Emerson_Berzagui wrote:

Sorry, do not know what "Axe-Fx" mean. Did you sell your  M9 or M13?

You seriously don't know what an Axe-Fx is?

http://www.fractalaudio.com/products-fa-axefx.html

Yes, I did also sell my M13.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by toneman2121 on 2010-10-09 18:44:43

excellent tone. i'm so jealous i could spit. got a ton of money to spend on my vehicles before i can think about getting an HD.anyway, good tone and fx



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Bersaghi on 2010-10-09 18:52:19

I didn't. Thanks.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2010-10-10 03:44:51

Emerson_Berzagui wrote:

I didn't. Thanks.

Sorry.  Hopefully I didn't induce any GAS in you by sharing that link.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Bersaghi on 2010-10-10 06:19:52

Thanks for the link.... but, I will not buy it though ... ;-)



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by timothybaugh on 2010-10-10 06:26:33

Cool tones Karl .. I'm still getting to grips with my unit but it's good to know the tones are there ..

Here's a guy who compares the POD to an Axe-FX .. metal amps only ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmcHJq5hqHA



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by TS5150 on 2010-10-15 18:01:58

is really noone hearing the muddy sound in the low ends? go on stage with that sound and you will ruin the band sound



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2010-10-15 18:09:10

TS5150 wrote:

is really noone hearing the muddy sound in the low ends? go on stage with that sound and you will ruin the band sound

Two things:

1.  These tones were dialed into the POD in about 10 minutes of cursory tweaking through a pair of KRK Rockit Powered 6's.  I wasn't going for live tone.

2.  No post processing.  If this was going to the FOH in a band situation, the sound guy would take care of that low end...if it's a problem.  And no, I don't hear it.

3.  I put these tones through a larger PA system at our rehearsal location and cranked them up.  Loud.  I'm pretty satisfied with the low end where it is.  And I have a bass player who'd let me know if it was a problem.

Okay, that was three.  I can't count.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by TS5150 on 2010-10-15 18:11:39

was not meant to be an offense to you sorry but I'm still not satisfied with the metal tones in the hd.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2010-10-15 18:22:44

No offense taken.  Do you have one?



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by TS5150 on 2010-10-15 18:24:41

an offense? or a hd?



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2010-10-15 18:31:09

LOL..no.  An HD.  If you don't, go try one.  Don't take clips on the net for the entire package.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by TS5150 on 2010-10-15 18:48:20

thats part of the problem: i own a hd 500 no useful metal tone in it in my opinion and I don't even play extreme metal. Line6 seems to be a blues company now. Who needs all those odd blues amps? No Diezel, no 51510 - its a shame. I will return my HD.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Crusty_Old_Rocker on 2010-10-15 19:59:24

Hey Karl, the title of your thread is priceless.  The only difference is that you posted it on this forum or did you also post on the Fractal forum (and then don a flame retardant suit).

The tones are great, love the AC30 tone with just that touch of class A grit.

Cheers,

Crusty



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Crusty_Old_Rocker on 2010-10-15 20:02:43

zap3nc wrote:

odd that you are digging the AC30... cause that is the one i'm currently infatuated with...

i love the crisp well defined clean sound and being able to dig in get a nice overdrive out of it.....

not sure what part is HD and what part is DT... all i can tell for certain is that i'm digging it so much that i can't seem to put it down for more than a few minutes.

Hey Zap, the AC30 and the Bassman are my favourites.  I have played the real things and man, the HD500 reproduces the the tone and feel perfectly.  I too just keep going back for more from the AC30.

Cheers,

Crusty



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Crusty_Old_Rocker on 2010-10-15 20:07:05

timowens wrote:

That sounds really-really good, and if you say it can replace your Axe-Fx then that says a lot too (I know you have a good ear for tone). But personally, I am going to hold off for a while to see if they got all the hardware and software bugs worked out, I really don't want to go through another X3L experience

Hey Tim, have you had a look at the HD500 in the flesh?  The full metal jacket really instills a lot more confidence in this baby and it works, really works.  With so many effects inside and so many parameters for each there might be a bug in there somewhere, but I can't find it.

Go and have a play with one in a music store but take some cash with you because the GAS will be unbearable.

Cheers,

Crusty



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2010-10-15 20:14:49

Crusty_Old_Rocker wrote:

Hey Karl, the title of your thread is priceless.  The only difference is that you posted it on this forum or did you also post on the Fractal forum (and then don a flame retardant suit).

I did mention in a thread over on the Fractal forum that I'd sold my Axe.  To give them credit, no flames.  There are a few people over there that see the HD for the good unit it is.  Many still think it isn't a match for the Axe.  I say it's too close to call in some cases. And I further submit that if they listened blind, nobody would be able to tell.   Because that's exactly what I did with my Axe.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Crusty_Old_Rocker on 2010-10-15 20:26:42

John_BlisterTip wrote:


... but I never heard too many fat tubey tones from Axe. Most were extremely hi-fi, which is its strength, very pristine, but too clinical. But my guess is that it can be dialed in, with all its settings, to a much more fuzzy tone but most users favored a less chewy sound.

What really chaps my azz is that Line6 didnt include more control over the amps internals---they dont seem to understand that was one of the huge draws of the Axe. When you can basically build your own amp..you have so many places to go if you dont like the default amps setting they use.

I also agree that a real amp, unless the DT50 turns out to be great, is the way to go live just because its so much easier to get the tried and true voicing that has fit in with a band, frequency wise, since--forever.

Hey JBT, Line 6 have actually put a bit of extra detail into the HD500.  How's this for detail?  You can select the AC hum frequency in the amp modelling between 50Hz and 60Hz.  This is a pretty big deal for those of us with 50Hz power as it does affect the sound of the amps and mixing a model with 60Hz hum into gear that has a native 50Hz hum just doesn't sound right.  The modelling really is very "organic" and not "clinical".

Line 6 have also, to some extent, enabled users to have some ability to build their own amp models by splitting out the PRE modelling in the HD500 which will allow the user to mix and match power amp characteristics when plugging into a DT50.  Looking at the specs for the DT50 you can see that users will be able to have a Fender Twin preamp from the HD500 feeding into a Class A power amp that has a negative feedback loop topology of a Marshall.  So you can mutiply the amp models by 2 (switch the amp class A or AB) then multiply again by 3 (use an alternive negative feedback loop topology) when using the HD with a DT50.

I can see there will be quite a lot of tonal exploration to be done when coupling the HD500 with the DT50.

Cheers,

Crusty



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Crusty_Old_Rocker on 2010-10-15 20:35:58

Did you sell yours to Tiz?

Did he ever get around to buying one?

It's good to know they didn't hit you with a flame thrower.

Cheers,

Crusty



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2010-10-15 20:39:01

Nope, Tiz is still Axe-less.  And he still posts on the Fractal forum every now and then.  Sold mine to some guy in NYC for almost what I paid for it.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by timowens on 2010-10-15 20:45:31

"Hey Tim, have you had a look at the HD500 in the flesh?  The full metal jacket really instills a lot more confidence in this baby and it works, really works.  With so many effects inside and so many parameters for each there might be a bug in there somewhere, but I can't find it.

Go and have a play with one in a music store but take some cash with you because the GAS will be unbearable.

Cheers,

Crusty"

Hey Crusty, for some reason I can't seem to "Quote Previous Message", maybe I need to reboot my computer in safe mode and reflash the firmware

Anyway, I live in the middle of Nowhere, Arizona so that isn't going to happen anytime soon. It's not a big deal, you know that I didn't have the best experience with the X3L so I don't have a problem waiting a few months to see how it all pans out for the HD. So far it doesn't looks like this unit is going to have all the problems that the X3L did but only time will tell. I really am hoping for the best, of all the other modelers I have owned, I really like the Line 6 tone the best. Who knows, I am going to Vegas in a few weeks and I'm sure I'll end up at GC at some point. Anyway, thanks for the words of encouragement, much appreciated.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by LeonardoCastro on 2010-10-16 11:59:22

Another ULTRA on eBay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Fractal-Audio-Axe-Fx-Ultra-Guitar-Effects-Processor-/120634717916?pt=Guitar_Accessories&hash=item1c1663b6dc

-x-

This guy said his friend has sold an Eleven Rack and kept the HD500:

"OK, Anyone?   Reason I ask is a friend just sold his 11R and kept the  POD HD500.  I can understand his reasoning because it has more FX, but i  think i would had kept both.  It would increase the FX and the Model  sims, which is a huge plus"

Found on: http://www.elevenrackpresets.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2549&page=3



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2010-10-16 12:21:04

LeonardoCastro wrote:


This guy said his friend has sold an Eleven Rack and kept the HD500

I have to be honest, what I've heard of the 11 isn't as good as either the Axe or the HD.  The amp models just don't sound as good to me.  And the 11 effects are just not what you'd expect on a $900 rack mounted processor.  So I'm not surprised someone kept the HD over the 11.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by LeonardoCastro on 2010-10-16 12:28:52

Karl,

I've never played with an 11R nor with an AXE-FX.

Thanks for your opinion about the 11R!!!

Regards,

Leonardo.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by wardick on 2010-10-16 14:43:51

I think Karl knows tone pretty damn well.  Be it POD, AXE, Tonelab whatever.  The Fact that he posted a thread with the subject as demonstrated is exactly why L6 gave him a  POD HD many months ago  They were hoping for that and it payed off in spades.   Well done L6 and Karl.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2010-10-16 16:15:39

Thanks for the vote of confidence, Charlie.  Their gamble could very easily have gone the other way.  If the truth is to be told, I wasn't very impressed at first.  But the team came through for all of us in the end, to the point where I had to admit that if I was presented a blind test that I wouldn't know the difference.  Those guys spent a lot of late nights typing in those ones and zeroes and should be commended for all their hard work.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by cybersnyder on 2010-10-16 19:56:52

Great tones!



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Crusty_Old_Rocker on 2010-10-16 23:22:55

Hey Karl,

Seems you're definitely not alone.  Take a look at http://line6.com/community/thread/46540?tstart=0 this author of the thread is selling his ultra due to the HD500.

Cheers,

Crusty



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by hdplayer on 2010-10-18 08:47:58

Hi Karl,

Your mayhem tone sounds amazing, exactly what I am looking for but when I play it through my amp it sounds nothing like what you recorded, any ideas why?

Thanks!



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2010-10-18 08:53:52

hdplayer wrote:

when I play it through my amp it sounds nothing like what you recorded

It's made for going direct to the PA.  It's also in stereo, but translates reasonably well to mono.  Your amp is probably coloring it.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by GeeTah on 2010-10-19 05:36:54

If Line6 can bring us a rack-mounted HD 500 with a foot controller that doesn't react to panning spotlights (or sunlight), you will probably see our two Eleven Racks on the market as well (we are currently using either X3 Lives or Eleven Racks in our multi-venue church of 10k members).

Had two X3 Pros and bailed out of the X3 Pros into Elevens because of issues with the FBV's un-muting when lights panned across the pedals. Really not a good situation. Worst time was one of our guitarists playing a wailing lead into his looper during a pastor's prayer (with several thousand worshipers present) when a follow-spotlight panned across his (FBV Shortboard) foot controller and un-muted it. I almost lost my job over it.

Just curious what happens with the HD500 if you rock the volume pedal all the way back (to the muted position) and then do the flashlight test. All nine of our X3L's fail this test (although not as badly as the FBV and FBV Shortboards do - including MKII's).

See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLPix_aJ7i4

GeeTah



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2010-10-19 05:47:47

GeeTah wrote:

If Line6 can bring us a rack-mounted HD 500 with a foot controller that doesn't react to panning spotlights

I've used the Shortboard, Shortboard MKII, X3Live, and the HD500 on a brightly lit church stage like yours (4 dozen big PAR cans, 6 robo spots, power washes, lasers, etc), i.e. - a whole light show, and never had problems with the optical sensors flaking out.

That said, if you have a rackmount unit or if Line6 ever comes out with an HD Pro and you don't feel confident the optical sensors are up to par, buy a different MIDI controller.  You're not tied to using the Shortboard.  You could get a Ground Control Pro with a Mission Engineering expression pedal and guarantee you won't have sensor problems since the pedal uses a pot.  Or go slightly less and get a Boss controller with 2 built in expressions.  Or even the Behringer FCB1010.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by phil_m on 2010-10-19 05:54:14

Not related to the technical issue, but did you seriously almost lose your job over that?  If that's the case, it really sounds like someone at that church needs to not take themselves so seriously.  It's a church service, not a rock concert.  I'm all for modern worship songs, but I really get irritated when ministers starts treating services like performances. It's actually one of the big reasons my wife and I left the church we had served on staff at a few years ago.  I'm all for excellence, but if your job was seriously threatened because of something like this, my recommendation would be to start looking elsewhere for job - in all seriousness.  That sort of thinking on the part of leadership will only lead to bigger problems down the road.

OK, enough of me ranting...  I've just been burned too badly by religiosity to see it and not comment.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2010-10-19 06:03:02

phil_m wrote:

sounds like someone at that church needs to not take themselves so seriously.

Heck, we've unknowingly played our guitars wirelessly from backstage over top of the sermon on a few occassions.  That lead to the sound guy assigning mute groups on the board for guitars.  Worship ends, a single button press from the sound guy mutes all the guitars.  Problem solved.  Except in cases where we have amps, but I solve that problem by putting it on standby when the worship is over.

Nobody ever got threatened with being fired.  Mostly because all of us are unpaid, but also because it's always been met with laughter from the pastor or congregation.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by GeeTah on 2010-10-19 06:06:59

I didn't have the luxury of time when things went wrong with the FBV that day. Needed to scramble and make a change. I am serious when I say that it nearly cost me my job (which I love). We had one Eleven Rack in our ProTools studio anyway and already knew the unit very well. So, it was easy to deploy and make it work quickly (had another service that same evening - no time to scramble to attempt to purchase and rig up a third-party controller).

Just curious though Karl, what happens to the HD500 when you do the flashlight test like the guy does in that video? Like I mentioned above, we have 9 X3L's and they all fail that test. Two have gone back to Sweetwater to have the motherboard replaced and came back doing the same thing. Both of our FBV Shortboards fail the test too. Next time you have your HD out, you might try that and let us know the results.

BTW, our workaround on the X3L's was a baffle on the volume pedal that we made with gaffer's tape. Another guy (dealing with the same issue) here in the community built a far-more exotic baffle and posted instructions on how to construct it and rig it to the pedal (in the FBV forum), but the tape worked fine for us on the X3L's.

GT



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by timothybaugh on 2010-10-19 06:09:36

I never trust my floorboard - I always turn my guitar's volume to zero. Also stops feedback and unwanted noise when you pick your guitar up off the stand ... has Line 6 committed themselves to fixing the problem?



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2010-10-19 06:13:24

GeeTah wrote:

BTW, our workaround on the X3L's was a baffle on the volume pedal that we made with gaffer's tape.

Didn't your X3L's come with that foam sleeve around where the optical sensor hole is?  Those were there from day one, and probably why mine never had that problem.  Some people removed them, thinking they were packing material, and got into trouble with the sensor.  They are usually lightly adhered both to the bottom of the pedal and the case.

I'll try the flashlight test with my 500 for you.  It's a bit of a rigged test though, because with the expression pedal being a solid piece of metal, it's really hard to get light under it.  Particularly in the real world where the spots are mounted 15 feet above your head.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by GeeTah on 2010-10-19 06:30:49

Karl:

Thanks for the suggestions, like I said it's a very large venue and we don't attempt to mute every channel through each service (musicians often play during prayers and control their own instrument volumes - although we are always there on the mutes and faders, but only intervene if the overall volume doesn't jive with the mood or "situation").

The room I was referring to actually fire-codes at 5,200 and my (engineering/lighting-screen & projector operator, monitor mixer and FOH) team consists of 9 people. So, we just need gear to perform per specs when we pay money for it, even though we are a large entity as churches go, I do have a budget. FYI all engineering team members are full-time staff - yet it is still a labor of love to all of us. Saying it as lovingly as possible, we paid L6 for functionality that was not delivered and unfortunately that necessitated a quick move, rather than putting time into attempting to figure out why the functionality wasn't delivered to us.

Anyway... thanks for your post and all you do on the forum. Sure would love to know how the HD fares in that test though...

Duty calls, but I'll check responses tonight if anyone would like to comment on results of that test.

Blessings to all!

GT



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by GeeTah on 2010-10-19 06:32:46

When we play loops into loopers, we need the POD output volume muted - but the guitar volume up. The looper (RC20XL) is before the POD in the signal chain.

The POD volume pedal needs to function in any kind of light per specs.

GT



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by effectinator on 2010-10-19 09:48:30

Ha ......I agree with the anal bit. I was waiting for Fractal to make a simpler floor based unit but Line 6 got there first. I was soooo close to buying an Axe FX last year but when I read the forum and all the pratting about with parameters and updates, where would I find time to play. There's many things with modeled sounds that IMHO are best left alone. SAG .... yup that would be useful. I'll have my 500 HD this weekend. Bring it on.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by GeeTah on 2010-10-19 10:47:04

Karl_Houseknecht wrote:

GeeTah wrote:

BTW, our workaround on the X3L's was a baffle on the volume pedal that we made with gaffer's tape.

Didn't your X3L's come with that foam sleeve around where the optical sensor hole is?  Those were there from day one, and probably why mine never had that problem.  Some people removed them, thinking they were packing material, and got into trouble with the sensor.  They are usually lightly adhered both to the bottom of the pedal and the case.

I'll try the flashlight test with my 500 for you.  It's a bit of a rigged test though, because with the expression pedal being a solid piece of metal, it's really hard to get light under it.  Particularly in the real world where the spots are mounted 15 feet above your head.

Hey Karl:

Yep. They all came with the foam disc and it is still in place on all our units. The guys in the lab at Sweetwater told me that it is really more to kill reflection than cover the hole. They are VERY familiar with this problem.

But to answer your question, yes, our units do have the foam pieces intact and still malfunction.

Thank you for offering ideas though!!!! Back to work - quick lunch break now!

Blessings

GT



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2010-10-19 10:51:57

GT,


How did you implement the gaffer tape baffle?



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by GeeTah on 2010-10-19 13:58:25

Karl:

We did sort of like "Pletch" did with his full bellows - although ours is much more abbreviated - hence why we call it a baffle (there's less of it and it doesn't block all the light, just enough that it works). See this thread and look for Pletch's image of how he did it. His design is more permanent and is probably superior to ours. http://line6.com/community/thread/38599

To answer your question: we took a 7-8" piece of 1" black gaffer tape and went around about 30% of the perimeter of the front of the volume pedal. Then we took another piece and stuck it to the bottom of the first piece - creating a 2" "curtain" sort of.... Then on the back of the two pieces we put two additional pieces (sticky side to sticky side) so that that there wouldn't be any exposed adhesive. They have all stayed put for the most part. When we go on the road, or play outside, we put fresh ones on - it takes about 30 seconds to do one. It's a "rig" but it works.

GT



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by jyflorida on 2010-10-19 14:15:59

Not to "hijack" the thread but we play to a much smaller congregation - about 100 on Saturday evenings and 300 on Sunday mornings - but things went in the same direction for a while...performance performance performance.  It got to the point where you were afraid of making one mistake lest you upset the minister and would then incur the wrath of the egotistical worship arts director.  Lost a lot of long-timers because of him and his stunts.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2010-10-19 14:28:40

jyflorida wrote:

Not to "hijack" the thread but we play to a much smaller congregation - about 100 on Saturday evenings and 300 on Sunday mornings - but things went in the same direction for a while...performance performance performance.  It got to the point where you were afraid of making one mistake lest you upset the minister and would then incur the wrath of the egotistical worship arts director.  Lost a lot of long-timers because of him and his stunts.

No worries about hijacking, this thread doesn't have a real topic.

If it ever gets that way at our church, we'll stop altogether.  Mistakes abound in our playing, but the congregation never notices.  It's all about the Holy Spirit.  Our sound guy came to us last week during the sermon, moved to tears, because at one point the congregation was singing louder than the PA.  And that's LOUD.  That's some worshipping there!  We plan no performance.  A couple of weeks ago, I saw this girl just jumping up and down in the back and I had to go out there and worship with her.  Half the band left the stage and went with me.

Some awesome moments of worship going on that I firmly believe wouldn't happen if we were paid to do it or if someone was demanding perfection or performance because if they did, we wouldn't have the freedom to let the worship take us where it will.  One of our church's values is that there are no rules about worship.  That applies to those leading it too.  Our band leader has always said that if we make a mistake, make it loud and mean it.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by jyflorida on 2010-10-19 14:53:44

I haven't seen enthusiasm like that since 2003 - seven of us (under a different band leader) played at several churches in Cuba.  Man THOSE guys know how to worship!!  Right now we don't expect our band leader to be around much longer.  Our new pastor focuses on the message of the music rather than the performance and it's very irritating to our current leader.  The really cool thing is that when we play a real rocker, our pastor will face the congregation and play air guitar!  Looking forward to the HD500 making its debut this weekend.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2010-10-20 08:07:13

If anyone wants to continue the OT discussion about worship musicians, please join me over here:

http://line6.com/community/thread/46816



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by sofnwhat on 2010-10-20 13:25:04

Hey Karl, how are the effects quality-wise in the HD compared to the M13? I'm thinking about getting a HD500, but I'd have to sell the X3L and M13. I've been really happy with my SV HD100/M13 rig, but if the effects in the POD HD's are in line with the M13 then I want one. There are many reasons why this would be more beneficial for me, including being half way to a POD HD/DT50 rig



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2010-10-20 13:33:43

Far as I can tell, every bit as good as the M13.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by sheguitarplayer on 2010-10-22 00:03:22

Thats me, Hi!

The axefx has gone, as has the FC300 I had to control it. Im also selling my atomic FRFR active cab.

Ive used an axefx for about 2 1/2 years now. Its an excellent unit, but I am mainly a live player so only really used the amps and a handful of fx.

I play with a band where most of our summer gigs are at festivals where there are a few other bands, necessitating the dreaded ten minute gear changeover and no soundchecks.

This was why I bought the axefx in the first place, the idea being that I could set up 3 or 4 patches that I knew would sound great direct to desk and not have to worry about the lack of soundchecks was very appealing to me.

After a few weeks it became clear that I was getting a great sound out front, but relying on monitoring through the on stage monitoring was hair raising indeed. They were of varying quality and soundmen in these situations have enough to worry about without bothering whether the guitarist can hear himself or is drowning out everyone else

I then went on to using a valve power amp and cab. Worked very well, but I lost all the benefits I had bought the axefx for in the first place.

Then started the search for a personal monitor. I tried various systems and found I prefer the atomic FRFR. This sounds great with the axefx, but has a tendency to squeal (feedback through the tweeters, a common problem with frfr speakers and guitars) at higher spls.

I was also awaiting the release of the dedicated axefx footswitch as the functionality of the FC300 with the axefx was limited.

It eventually came out a couple of months ago after a long wait. When I saw the price of it I changed my mind very quickly. It looks a great unit but its very expensive and has no expression pedals, so you still have to buy one of those.

I happened to come accross the hd500 on the axefx forum where someone mentioned its midi functions. I checked out the manual and saw it could do everything I wanted at a far cheaper price than the axefx foot controller, and would also serve as a backup.

When it arrived I was very pleasantly surprised at how good it sounds. Its amazing how spending a couple of years with a product. and reading all the stuff on the forums, your view of other gear can be skewed by others comments.

Plugged into a valve power amp and speaker I reckon the hd500 sounds every bit as good as the axefx. In addition the fx sound great out of the box. I dont have to spend 2-3 days trying to get a convincing wah sound, its in there. Likewise with most of the fx. The axefx effects are pristine, and take a lot of tweaking to get particular sounds. If you are after a particular sound like for example an MXR flanger, it takes a lot of work to get there. If you are after new sounds, the axefx will get you there in spades, but most live guitarists I know arent looking for that.

Anyway, to cap it all off, my original reason for buying the axefx was offset by all the gear I was having to take with me to get what I wanted. I may as well take a traditional amp setup with me and be done with it!

Having said that Ive taken my hd500 to the last couple of rehearsals and it is great. The functionality of the unit and the sounds it produces through a valve amp are IMHO top notch. Ive decided to go down the hd500/DT50 route for the ease of setup etc at the aforementioned gigs.

Just gotta decide head or combo?

Most of these gigs have the obligatory Marshall 4x12 in the backline so wouild be interested to hear what others have to say about the dt50/Marshall 4x12 combination.

The sale of my axefx has left me with enough money to buy the hd500 AND a dt50. WOW!



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2010-10-22 05:24:09

sheguitarplayer wrote:


dont have to spend 2-3 days trying to get a convincing wah sound, its in there. Likewise with most of the fx. The axefx effects are pristine, and take a lot of tweaking to get particular sounds. If you are after a particular sound like for example an MXR flanger, it takes a lot of work to get there. If you are after new sounds, the axefx will get you there in spades, but most live guitarists I know arent looking for that.

My experience exactly.  The Axe has great effects if you're willing to spend hours dialing them in on every single patch you create.  I just don't have that kind of time.

Anyway, to cap it all off, my original reason for buying the axefx was offset by all the gear I was having to take with me to get what I wanted. I may as well take a traditional amp setup with me and be done with it!

Again, exact same experience here.  I didn't really mind the outlay because I'd spent that much money on traditional amp setups, but I was hauling the same amount of gear.

The sale of my axefx has left me with enough money to buy the hd500 AND a dt50. WOW!

I already have a 500 and DT50, so the sale of my Axe and all the accompanying gear that went with it afforded me a Marshall TSL100 and a Fryette Sig:X.  Tube amps are cool, and a good long term investment, and that DT50 rig is even cooler.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by magpie on 2010-10-22 15:44:45

Quote:

"Their gamble could very easily have gone the other way.  If the truth is to be told, I wasn't very impressed at first.  But the team came through for all of us in the end, to the point where I had to admit that if I was presented a blind test that I wouldn't know the difference.  Those guys spent a lot of late nights typing in those ones and zeroes and should be commended for all their hard work."

The new HD models is a step in the right direction. However, it seems very strange to me that Line 6 have worked hard on the HD models for several years and only managed to get good results in the very last months before release. You had the HD 500 for a few months and were not at all impressed first. What did it sound like a few months back then? That indicates that the development was hasted in the end before deadline and that there is lots of room for improvement. They had to get the editors etc ready before deadline and I really hope that we get to see updates in the future. Not just new amp model packs, but also improvements overall.

Ok, they don't have do go Axe-fx update crazy, but there is always room for improvement in algorithms, cabs, functionality etc.  



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2010-10-22 16:42:33

magpie wrote:

it seems very strange to me that Line 6 have worked hard on the HD models for several years and only managed to get good results in the very last months before release.

It's one thing to get those HD models sounding great on a computer in a development lab.  It's another thing to optimize them and get them sounding great on dedicated hardware.  You're overanalyzing the situation.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by stumpsout on 2010-10-23 17:56:04

Thanks for sharing your experience, Karl... very interesting!

I'm waiting for mine for a month now!

Best thread title ever BTW LMAO



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by blahblahdeleter on 2010-10-24 06:34:14

"Having said that Ive taken my hd500 to the last couple of rehearsals and it is great. The functionality of the unit and the sounds it produces through a valve amp are IMHO top notch. Ive decided to go down the hd500/DT50 route for the ease of setup etc at the aforementioned gigs...."

If you're not already, make sure you're using the 4 cable method with that tube amp. You'll get the best live sounds out of your rig that way. (Maybe when you get your DT50, that's taken care of automatically?)

In any case, routing overdrive and distortion into your preamp and the other effects into your effects loop on the tube amp is the way to go, with this method!



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Dime13 on 2010-10-24 18:57:17

Wow this is insane if its all true...  please hear me out:  for the last few months I have always come up short with funds and have been in agony about not being able to have an Axe-FX - so is the HD stuff close enough now to sound good enough on a pro recording?  or is the Axe still better?  because I can easily add an HD to my financing account at Long and McQuade up here in Canada.

   do you know if a rack version is coming out soon?  HD pro i mean?



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by blahblahdeleter on 2010-10-24 20:06:21

FarBeyond3 wrote:

Wow this is insane if its all true...  please hear me out:  for the last few months I have always come up short with funds and have been in agony about not being able to have an Axe-FX - so is the HD stuff close enough now to sound good enough on a pro recording?  or is the Axe still better?  because I can easily add an HD to my financing account at Long and McQuade up here in Canada.

   do you know if a rack version is coming out soon?  HD pro i mean?

Buy the HD. If you were shooting for the Axe-FX, buy the HD500. Give it a try, you can take it back if you don't agree its of sufficient tonal quality.

Let's just say that Axe-FX can no longer command the premium they once could.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by sheguitarplayer2 on 2010-11-05 16:08:27

Let's just say that Axe-FX can no longer command the premium they once could.

My thoughts exactly. I sold rather quickly because after trying the hd500 I thought it wouldnt be long before I lost a lot of money on it (the axefx that is).



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2010-11-05 22:09:35

sheguitarplayer2 wrote:

Let's just say that Axe-FX can no longer command the premium they once could.

I will agree here.  I spent some time tonight listening to recordings I'd made of some Axe tones and was able to duplicate the tone on the 500 so closely that I really can't believe I spent as much as I did on my Axe rig.  That was certainly not true of the X3 or XT.  Now, I'm not saying that this will be true of every tone available on the Axe, but it was true for what I'd dialed in.  YMMV.

And I'm with you on getting rid of the Axe when I did.  I too had a feeling that they would soon not be commanding the price in the used market that they do right now.  That may change or it may not, but I wasn't going to take that chance..



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Pstrat on 2010-11-06 09:48:06

Damn can't believe you sold the axe.   I honestly disagree I think the Axe price is still going to remain high.  That is until they release Axe Ultra 2 or something.   However, if this HD500 makes the resell value go down  I'll get a chuckle.   BTW I love this thing, the more I learn the more I appreciate it. 



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Dime13 on 2010-11-09 12:44:16

Can anyone confirm the latency on the new HD stuff?   Because I am being told it is just the usual spongy 8-16ms of latency typical of PODs wheras the Axe FX was clocked at 1.5ms.

And from all clips I have heard online, the axe fx still sounds more 3 dimensional. 

Is this just the usual hype of Line 6 marketing or can we please hear some programming and algorithm-related stats if Line 6 HD is going to compare with a unit that is 4 times the price.

I need proof from the engineering department, or anyone who knows the specific stats.

In addition, what kind of parametric EQ is in the HD stuff?  Because if its still that crappy parametric with little flexibility on parameters then that would be a huge let down.

This is still a huge difference and its like comparing pro tools HD to  a soundcard with a USB connection.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by fester2000 on 2010-11-09 13:12:21

FarBeyond3 wrote:

Can anyone confirm the latency on the new HD stuff?   Because I am being told it is just the usual spongy 8-16ms of latency typical of PODs wheras the Axe FX was clocked at 1.5ms.

And from all clips I have heard online, the axe fx still sounds more 3 dimensional. 

Is this just the usual hype of Line 6 marketing or can we please hear some programming and algorithm-related stats if Line 6 HD is going to compare with a unit that is 4 times the price.

I need proof from the engineering department, or anyone who knows the specific stats.

In addition, what kind of parametric EQ is in the HD stuff?  Because if its still that crappy parametric with little flexibility on parameters then that would be a huge let down.

This is still a huge difference and its like comparing pro tools HD to  a soundcard with a USB connection.

I'm afraid you've been given some bad information - or you're comparing apples and oranges.

Re latency - there is no way the HD series is in the 8-16ms range for live sound.  The latency you may have been quoted may be for USB audio recording into a DAW, and if I'm right, 8-16ms is of almost no consequence when recording, as latency is compensated for.  The unit itself is, as best I can tell, able to generate tone at imperceptible latency rates (it may or may not be 1.5 ms, but it's got to be in that range).

Re 3D sound, I'd love to hear what you're comparing to, b/c I'm not hearing that kind of difference.  Obviously, this is subjective, though, so there's no real "right" or "wrong" answer here.

Re Specs/Stats from the L6 "Engineering Department," I'm afraid you will have to work on understanding the difference between a "want" and a "need" b/c L6 almost never reveals that type of data for any unit, ever.  Could be a first time, but don't hold your breath.

Re EQs, I think it's funny that folks are simultaneously upset that the HD500 does *not* have the X3/XT's semi parametric, while others (you, for instance) describe that same eq as "crappy" lol.  If you're seriously asking about the HD500's eq options, you'll be pleased to know that there are five eq options, all of which are usable in my experience with them so far.

Say what you will about not being able to compare the units, it's clear that more than one Fractal customer has voted with their feet in favor of the HD500s.

Cheers,

Fester2k



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2010-11-10 04:57:49

FarBeyond3 wrote:

Can anyone confirm the latency on the new HD stuff?   Because I am being told it is just the usual spongy 8-16ms of latency typical of PODs wheras the Axe FX was clocked at 1.5ms.

I do remember, back when this first was debated, that Fractal claimed a latency in the PODxt/X3 of 2 - 3 ms, vs 1.5ms in the Axe, and then went on to say how this was a huge deal.  It isn't.  Consider this:

In a room at 70 degrees Fahrenheit, the speed of sound in air is 1128.17 ft/s.  If you are 10 feet in front of your real amp, the latency you feel from the AIR alone is:

10 ft x 1/1128.17 ft/s x 1000 ms/s = 8.86ms

And does this bother the average musician?  Not at all.  Is it perceptible?  Yes, to some.  I can feel latencies in recording software if it's above 10ms or so.  So you'd surely feel 16ms from the POD if that was the case.  The thing is...it isn't.  I felt no difference in perceived latency between the Axe-Fx and any other modeler I've owned, or any amp I play live, for that matter.  The whole inherent POD latency argument is hogwash.  Try it for yourself and see.

And from all clips I have heard online, the axe fx still sounds more 3 dimensional.

During the beta period, I constantly compared the tones I was getting from the Axe to the 500.  During late versions of the firmware it obviously got to the point for me where I didn't care to keep the Axe anymore.  So, you figure out what that means.  I'm known to be picky about tone.  And I was also known for touting how much better the Axe was than the X3, a claim I still defend.  I don't know exactly what "3 dimensional" means.  Maybe there was more reverb or you heard stereo clips of the Axe and you were comparing them to mono clips of the HD?

Is this just the usual hype of Line 6 marketing or can we please hear some programming and algorithm-related stats if Line 6 HD is going to compare with a unit that is 4 times the price.

I need proof from the engineering department, or anyone who knows the specific stats.

How is that going to make any difference to you in how it sounds when you play it?  Just go plug in and hear for yourself.  If you like it, would it matter if hamsters were running around in little wheels inside the unit, generating the tone?

In addition, what kind of parametric EQ is in the HD stuff?  Because if its still that crappy parametric with little flexibility on parameters then that would be a huge let down.

Okay, I almost missed that EQ.  Fester pointed out that there are now 5 different EQ options.  But here's the thing:  I haven't found the need to use ANY EQ on any of my HD patches.  I couldn't make that claim about the X3, and I certainly couldn't make that claim about the Axe-Fx either.  It turns out to be not so big of a let down after all.

This is still a huge difference and its like comparing pro tools HD to  a soundcard with a USB connection.

Really?  You can tell the difference?  You must have ears made of precious metals.  I'm sorry, it's all digital.  This is like the Radio Shack guy trying to sell me the Monster optical cable with gold contacts, because as you know, gold conducts light so much better than plastic.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by mr_slugworth on 2010-11-10 05:18:54

Since someone else resurrected this thread, I'd like to comment on this...

I hope that Line 6 does open up some more tweaking options on the amp models.  I had a Roctron Utopia, and one of the things I liked best was the deep-ish amp and speaker tweaks available.  I say "deep-ish" because it was nothing nearly as deep as the Axe-FX, but it did let me tweak things like tube bias and polarity, speaker reactance, mic position, and such.  Those deep tweaking options let me do some great things.

For some of us, having deeper tweak options would help mitigate the fact that the selection of amps is quite narrow in certain areas.  For high but not crazy gain, I've got a Marshall and a Mesa, and personally I am not remotely as fond of the Mesa model as I would hope to be.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by L6EXPERT on 2010-11-10 05:27:32

Seriously, STOP THAT HYPE! Its easy for a "L6EXPERT" or whatever to say he sold his Axe-Fx due to the POD HD quality. I was GASssing over a pod for a few weeks. But all I see is HYPE from the L6 FANS. Neutral guys are only saiyng the new PODs are OK or NOT WHAT EXPECTED. Line6 should promote their PODs as for what ir really is, not for what the L6EXPERTFANS dream it to be.

A really serious guy about buying rig will WAIT for the VOX, BOSS and DIGITECH announces their new MFX that are comming out soon. Nice move from L6 to put the PODs on the stores first of them all, and do that millionaire promotion over them, L6 is just working on the peoples GAS.

I´m still serious about buying a POD HD, only because there´s nothing else to compare to them TODAY, but tomorrow will see.

But If I see 1 another HYPE from L6EXFANs, I´ll not buy from Line6 again.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2010-11-10 05:28:51

mr_slugworth wrote:

personally I am not remotely as fond of the Mesa model as I would hope to be.

For what it's worth, I find the treadplate HD model to be almost identical to the Axe's Recto New.  So you'd probably not like that one either.

I know, I'm also for the addition of some deeper tweak features.  Master Volume and Sag top my list.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2010-11-10 05:31:31

joaokorb wrote:

Seriously, STOP THAT HYPE! Its easy for a "L6EXPERT" or whatever to say he sold his Axe-Fx due to the POD HD quality.

News flash:  I was given the expert tag AFTER I sold my Axe.  Although the expert tag only means I've been around here for years, have owned lots of different Line6 gear, and have helped a bunch of people. 

And if you have followed any of my posts here, you'd know I don't always talk good about Line6.  They draw my ire almost as often as my praise.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by L6EXPERT on 2010-11-10 05:34:36

I thought L6EXPERT tags means that those guys are here to help other L6 users instead of promoting their products.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by phil_m on 2010-11-10 06:42:52

So are you saying Karl is lying about selling his Axe-FX because of the HD500?  That seems like a pretty bold accusation to me.

I just can't see why you seem to have such a stick in your craw about this.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by L6EXPERT on 2010-11-10 07:40:27

I like you and your posts phil. Maybe my thing with mike its just because that ugly avatar. Ok my POD is now ordered and on its way. Let´s see how it A/B with my Bassman amp. But even if it gets real close as some claimed, I wouldnt sell it.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by L6EXPERT on 2010-11-10 08:04:56

Sorry Mike. Nothing personal. I woke up in a bad mood this morning.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2010-11-10 08:07:03

joaokorb wrote:

I thought L6EXPERT tags means that those guys are here to help other L6 users instead of promoting their products.

It does mean they're here to help.  And again, go and look at my post history.  You'll see plenty of posts where I promote products from Fractal, Boss, Marshall, Mesa, Fryette, and others.  Probably more posts promoting non-Line6 products than theirs.

We ARE allowed to like Line6 products, though.  Is that illegal?  I sure like my HD500.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by L6EXPERT on 2010-11-10 08:36:34

Glad to know you´re here to help mate!

Cheers!



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by remixthewar on 2010-11-10 09:33:21

Hey Karl,

How do some of the more esoteric effects in the pod hd compare to that of the axe?  For example...the vocoder effect?  I am a nut for vocoders...I own the roland v synth xt and it has an emulation of the original vc330 which is to die for...I control it using my axon midi guitar system which is a major trip but sometimes my hands are bit faster than the tracking.  I have been looking into gettng an axe, I already own the gsp1101 among a number of tube amps and it sounds good but is limited in the spacey effects and that is pretty much what I am all about...now the pod hd is out and it has me rethinking about my sound and my wallet...only thing its missing is user downloadable/uploadable IR's and better control over the outputs...an easy firmware update if LINE 6 is listening.  Anyway, any feedback on some of the pods crazier synth type of effects would be much appreciated!!

on a side note, zvex mastotron + pog2 + tube amp = heaven.  does the pod harmonizer/octave effect track well or am i gonna have to add an eventide to get into the axe territory ( I just sold my pog2 becuase I thought the axe would do but now there is the pod hd and well, eventide is eventide (pitchfactor)

peace,

-andrew



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2010-11-10 10:03:45

remixthewar wrote:


How do some of the more esoteric effects in the pod hd compare to that of the axe?  For example...the vocoder effect?

Not something I've used in either unit, nor any of the other "esoteric" effects.  I was into the Axe for the amp models, so that was my primary basis for comparison.  Although I really do think the M-series delays and mods are real competition for the Axe.  I'm sure the Fractal people will pounce on that, but it's true.

only thing its missing is user downloadable/uploadable IR's and better control over the outputs...an easy firmware update if LINE 6 is listening.

Probably the very first feature I asked for on the HD as part of my initial review was the user IR feature.  I agree, it's a huge selling point on the Axe.  And it's probably the most tonal bang for the buck they could implement on the HD.  I have a bunch of nice RedWirez Big Box IR's that I could put to use with that feature.

I'm not sure what happened on not separating the live and direct output modes.  I'd expect that to get some love.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Mr_Clean on 2010-11-14 00:49:38

Well its made me sell my 11 Rack & Ground Control. This is a seriously a big step up from the old POD's.....Some of the basic amps sound amazing, very touch sensitive and chimey. I am using this with 2 Eventide Eclipses (i plan to put one in the FX loop and the other post the unit). The only negative.......(for me anyway) the dam looper is MONO ! For a stereo unit I cant understand why they did that. I would sacrifice looper delay time for stereo. Who needs 40+ seconds anyway ! So Line 6 if you are listening how about making this an option ?????? It will save me carrrying my 2880 Looper around ! cheers



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Dime13 on 2010-11-14 18:50:07

Ok so I picked up an HD 500 and will decide within 15 days if I will keep it.  While the unit is an improvement over previous PODs,  there is still something missing.  That warm analog waveform like in the real thing is simply missing.  And also the super high presence range of the Axe FX that everyone in the Axe FX foum assures me of.

Either way, I am buying an Axe.  And possibly Keeping this HD as a backup, but so far it is not as HD as the label HD.  Maybe semi- HD - I will give it that.

And the parametric EQ is the same crappy one.  And there is no true Low Pass Filter option... even in the Q-filter, the low pass mode is not a  moog-style true low pass filter. The frequency range does not go to the full range of human hearing.

And I am not too happy with the cabs.  And the amps start farting when you increase the bass.

Karl, Line 6 must be paying you some good money to make these recent assertions, and I have no reason to believe you sold your Axe FX.  No reason whatsoever, and if you did, what were you thinking?

Here is an example of the missing brilliance range in the HD500 vs. the absolutely superb Axe-FX.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmcHJq5hqHA



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by phil_m on 2010-11-14 19:11:29

I've never played through an Axe-FX, but the tones on that video certainly didn't convince me about it.  I pretty much hated all those tones - from the POD and the Axe-FX.  I might just be too old, but I wouldn't even know how anyone could say one of those tones is better than the other.  With such a saturated tone, how does one hear any type of nuance?  Actually, through my speakers, the Axe tones in those clips sounded a bit muddier, but again, I hated them all.

All I know about the HD500 is that when I play through it, it actually feels to me very much like it reacts like a real amp - especially the Fender and Vox models.  Could the Axe be better?  Probably.  More than $1000 better?  I doubt it.

I'd also add, regarding the EQ, there's five different EQ models available, and they're not all parametric.  There is a graphic model included, so you should be able to do just about anything you'd want EQ wise.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2010-11-14 20:35:17

FarBeyond3 wrote:

Karl, Line 6 must be paying you some good money to make these recent assertions

Okay, let's get this out in the open and put it to rest here once and for all so we can continue this conversation about the actual unit and the tone it delivers, because I'm sick of the fanboy/paid staff accusations.

Line6 did "pay" me with a free HD500.  As did they all of the beta testers who tested that unit.  The unit was payment for a lot of hours of testing and reporting back.  Actually, a less than fair trade if you think about it because if I spent 10 hours per week (very conservative estimate) testing the thing over a three month period, that's roughly $5/hour, rounding up of course.  Five measly dollars per hour to be a tester.  A bargain for Line6, don't you think?  I can assure you that my going rate in my day job, that's probably about $60/hr shy of what I make (another conservative estimate). So, dude, $500 is hardly a payoff I'd even blink at.

And here's what I plan to do with that unit: sell it.  And then I will donate the proceeds, and turn around and buy one with my own money.  I know you have no reason to believe me on that front, but let me tell you how it went down in the past with Line6.  They gave me a Spider Valve amp to test out when they were first released.  I sold that one too.  I took the proceeds and some of my own cash and bought 3 X3 Lives and donated them to my church.  Then went and bought an HD100 and another SV combo with my own cash and I gigged them for a good long while.  Why would I sell something they gave me for free and then buy one with my own cash?  To avoid the charges you level at me now.

I have no reason to believe you sold your Axe FX.  No reason whatsoever, and if you did, what were you thinking?

Well, let me give you a reason to believe then.  I sold my Axe in a private transaction between me and a Fractal forum member.  But luckily, I was able to look up a copy of my PayPal invoice (buyer info redacted for their privacy):

axeinvoice.JPG

So, is there anything else you'd like to know?  Because I'm being completely up front and honest here: something I believe I'm known for on this forum and others.    When I'm done with the 500, I'll send you a copy of my sales receipt so you can verify that I'm keeping my word.  You realize, they had me participate as a tester because they knew how fervently in love with the Axe-Fx I was.  I talked that unit up on this very forum and defended it every chance I got.  It's still a good unit, no doubt.  But I'd rather spend $500 and have a compact, portable, easy to use unit than spend about $5000 on the Axe and accessories and have a rig that I needed a hand truck and a couple of helpers to load up.

I encourage you to buy an Axe-Fx anyway.  Like I said, great unit.  And when you've gigged it for a year in various venues then you'll have earned the right to compare it to the 500 honestly and fairly, as I have.

Best regards, FarBeyond.  I don't know what in the hell got into you with that, but you're frankly pissing me off.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2010-11-14 20:58:36

FarBeyond3 wrote:

Here is an example of the missing brilliance range in the HD500 vs. the absolutely superb Axe-FX.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmcHJq5hqHA

"As it says in the title. Note that I didn't try to make the patches  sound like eachother. I just started from scratch on every amp model and  dialed in a sound. So the difference between the clips can be quite big".

We're all familiar with that video, and his others.  And if he changed the video so that the unit names were displayed at the wrong times, there'd still be some tones in there of the 500 that you'd probably prefer.  But you are biased.  And you are defending a unit that you don't even own.  Have you even played one?  I did.  For almost a years worth of club gigs and church services.  Come report back when you've done the same.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by beteasta351 on 2010-11-14 21:29:26

GUYS GUYS GUYS, stop arguing! They are both great units...

The Axe Fx is great for those who can afford it, and the POD HDxxx is just a great pedal in general because it sounds very good and its easier on the wallet.

Now, it doesn't matter what the Axe can do (ive used one as well) as compared to the POD HD, there is no denying that it will be better, marginally better- not exactly, but in its own "expensive niche" way, yes it is better. But, the POD HD series can get pretty much almost the same sounds and even if the quality compared to the AXE isnt completely up-to-par, it is definitely worth the quarter-of-a-price-tag price that is holds. They are both great units, the AXE possibly being a little better for those who can afford it, HOWEVER, i could definitely see five star, top of the line, epic albums being recorded from the POD HD.

I just dont like how those snobby Axe Fx guys at the metal forums and the 7 string forums completely put down the POD HD as if it were a piece of junk. Just to those guys, im sure i know a lot of people who play so much better than they do and have another "low end modeler" instead of an AXE. Really, it all boils down to having fun/being good at guitar (no competition though) and playing to your heart's content. If its required that you buy a 2000$ machine to do so, then you have a lot more issues than the ones you allegedly have with the POD HD. Of course if you bought the AXE solely for the purpose of professional recording, then thats a different story. But really some of those guys are such snobs. (I think those guys are in denial that other modelers are catching up)



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2010-11-15 04:38:51

beteasta351 wrote:

GUYS GUYS GUYS, stop arguing! They are both great units...

Exactly the point I've been making the entire time.  I keep saying the Axe is a great unit too.

What I DON'T like is when someone calls me a liar and accuses me of working for Line6, as FarBeyond has done.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Brion_Kean on 2010-11-15 05:16:15

I also don't like the BS from "farbeyond". Karl is the real deal, and a way nicer person that I am. FUCK off if you don't like the POD HD, it's no skin off our backs. Seriously. Have fun with whatever you want to have fun with, just drop the negative energy, animosity, and personal attacks. There is no conspiracy theory going on, get over yourself, and play music.

This is why good band hire accountants. When you let musicians worry too much about money it messes their heads up. Karl, you rock, and you handled all that with supreme aplomb, kudos dude.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2010-11-15 05:27:13

Brion_Kean wrote:

you handled all that with supreme aplomb, kudos dude.

Mega kudos to you for using the word "aplomb" in a sentence.    Now I need to look it up.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by phil_m on 2010-11-15 05:29:37

I have nothing against the Axe.  I just wish those that some people who own it didn't need constant reaffirmation about their decision to own it.  Like you said,it's all about having fun and making great music.  Right now, there's a lot of great tools available to the average guitarist that don't cost an arm and a leg.  There's no need to make everything a competition (although, I suppose, that is the American way).  In the words of the prophet Rodney King, "why can't we all just get along?" 



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Dime13 on 2010-11-15 06:17:17

Karl, I was not calling you a liar.  You didnt get the lighthearted nature of my poking?  I said I dont believe you out of shock, and I even added "and if you did, what got into you?". So there is no reason to react like that.


And btw, I heard the Axe FX in person as someone has one locally, please do not say i am commenting on a unit i do not own when it is 100% valid to make comments on a demo A/B session with someone else's unit.


And you also say But I'd rather spend $500 and have a compact, portable, easy to use unit  than spend about $5000 on the Axe and accessories and have a rig that I  needed a hand truck and a couple of helpers to load up.


Its only a rack and a midi controller. Very easy to carry.   We're only talking about a 3 grand investment, not a 5 grand one.  A very light case if I may add.   And there is no need for a high end conditioner either as the Axe was designed to work perfectly fine with any powersupply.


I have no idea what got into you when you sold it.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Dime13 on 2010-11-15 06:22:30

Brion Kean says:  There is no conspiracy theory going on, get over yourself, and play music.


The type of music i play is so noisy to begin with that absolutely perfect sound definition is the only option.  This is the reason why so many metal bands sound like their demo was recorded in a public bathroom.


Betaesta31 says: If its required that you buy a 2000$ machine to do so, then you have a  lot more issues than the ones you allegedly have with the POD HD. Of  course if you bought the AXE solely for the purpose of professional  recording, then thats a different story.

The standards for demos in this day and age require units like the Axe. Even basement demos.  Again, I am highly concerned about any lack of definition from the HD - definition and clarity which is vitally essential for such a busy sounding type of music like metal, and I am concerned about  making the demo possibly sound too iritating with EQ-ing.


The reason for all this is because the advertising from Line 6 is false.  I am not sure what the HD is supposed to stand for but i can tell you it is absolute fact that it does not stand for "High Definition".  So this false advertising is the reason for my serious and valid chalenge here.  And I remain bewildered at Karl's decision to sell the Axe.

The HD slogan is also false because the new L6 unit lacks the modeling capability of the warm analog sound, and again, the presence range is strangely missing.  Line 6 did not put enough effort into this.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2010-11-15 06:39:44

FarBeyond3 wrote:

Karl, I was not calling you a liar.  You didnt get the lighthearted nature of my poking?  I said I dont believe you out of shock

Well, you said, and I quote:

I have no reason to believe you sold your Axe FX.  No reason whatsoever

To me, that's calling me a liar because I gave my word to you that I sold it, and if that isn't reason enough for you, I'm sorry.  Sorry if that isn't the way you meant it to come across.  But I tried to find another way to interpret your intent, and couldn't.

And you also say But I'd rather spend $500 and have a compact, portable, easy to use unit  than spend about $5000 on the Axe and accessories and have a rig that I  needed a hand truck and a couple of helpers to load up.

Its only a rack and a midi controller. Very easy to carry.   We're only talking about a 3 grand investment, not a 5 grand one.  A very light case if I may add.   And there is no need for a high end conditioner either as the Axe was designed to work perfectly fine with any powersupply.

6 space Road Runner ATA effects rack weighs a good 15lbs empty.  Add a power conditioner, rack tuner, Axe, and stereo poweramp and you've got something weighing in at close to 70 lbs or so.  Ground control pro, 2 expression pedals, and ATA flight case pedalboard for it came in at about 20lbs.  So a 90 lb modeling rig?  Not light at all.  Then you need to add in the 15" floor wedges I bought for monitoring.  Those weren't light either.

As far as investment, your mileage may vary, but I was quoting what I spent on my Axe rig.  Axe plus all those things I mentioned above came in at around $5000.  I had a medium duty power conditioner there because I play at places where power isn't always great, and I wanted to protect my $2000 effects unit (read: computer) in the same way I protect my $2000+ tube amps against surges, spikes, bad grounds, undervoltages, overvoltages, etc.  I spent $200 on the power conditioner.  That's about average for a decent one that can take a hit and doesn't need to be sent back for reconditioning or get junked at the first surge.

I have no idea what got into you when you sold it. I'm buying an Axe FX.

I did because I couldn't justify keeping it, and I could use that money to invest in other things that will hold their value long after the next version of the Axe-Fx comes out.  Good tube amps rock, brother.  Nothing wrong with that.  I also read the writing on the wall.  With the introduction of the HD line, the Axe can't hold the premium place in the market that even I said it did beforehand.  I predict lower resale value on the used market soon.  So I'm betting on the used gear market, which is no different than what I do with any of my gear because it is investment.

And no problem, I encourage you to buy an Axe-Fx.  It really is a great unit, and you'll be happy with it, probably.  But it isn't the ONLY great unit out there.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by TheRealZap on 2010-11-15 06:39:56

dude... it's your money... buy what you like... no reason for anyone to pick a fight over it...

i'm personally pretty happy with my HD stuff, and would buy many other things besides an AXE-FX if i had 3-5k in the budget for gear right now... but if you have the budget for it... and you believe that it will work for you... go for it.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by phil_m on 2010-11-15 06:43:19

The reason for all this is 
because the advertising from Line 6 is false.  I am not sure what the HD
is supposed to stand for but i can tell you it is absolute fact that it
does not stand for "High Definition".  So this false advertising is the
reason for my serious and valid chalenge here.  And I remain bewildered
at Karl's decision to sell the Axe.

You are, in course, entitled to your opinion of any given product, but the charge of false advertising is simply wrong.  I am not looking for the perfect metal tone by any means, but there certainly is a lot more in the way of dynamic range and touch sensitivity in the HD line than previous PODs or other modelers I've played through.  The fact that your experiece seems to be so negative makes me wonder if perhaps there is something not set up correctly in your HD500.

As far as the sounds used in an actual demo recording, I'm still of the opinion that the purpose of a demo is demonstrate a band's overall talent, tightness, and songwriting ability.  I really have a hard time imagining that a person looking to make a decision about whether or not a band deserves a contract or not is going to be too worried about the nuances of the guitar tone.

Anyway, none of us here are your enemies.  If you don't like the HD500, that's fine - it's no skin off my back.  But you have to understand when you make blanket statements about certain products not sounding good or whatever, you're bound to be seen as offensive to people who actually do like the product you're slamming.  My advice is to be a little more civil.  We're simply discussing opinions here.  There's very little in the way of absolutes when it comes to guitar tones.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2010-11-15 07:42:06

FarBeyond3 wrote:

the presence range is strangely missing.

I had to see what you were talking about here so I fired up the 500 through a set of full range, powered 12" PA speakers to see if any of the amps are lacking presence.  Set the HD for gig volume.  This means that items in my studio were shaking.

In most all cases, especially on the "metal" amps, I had to dial back the presence and/or treble and even mid knobs (the mids on some of the models affect upper mids, above 3K even) or risk my ears bleeding from the high end it was putting out.  Far more high end presence than you would ever need in a live application.

The Axe is indeed known for its high end character.  And in a live situation, you need copious amounts of EQ to tame the highs and lows it gives you.  High and low pass at a minimum.  Indeed, the low end can be thunderous and the high end ear-splitting.  The cool thing about the 500 is that you can dial in the sound using just the amp tone stack knobs and get a perfectly acceptable tone that sits in a live mix.  No EQ block necessary.

See, you're judging the Axe-Fx by clips on the Internet and on your experience of hearing someone else play one live.  You haven't played it for yourself.  And you've had your 500 for what?  A couple of days?  I had the Axe for a couple of MONTHS before I fully understood it.  And the same goes for the 500.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Dime13 on 2010-11-16 06:14:56

I am not talking about EQ-ing LOL!!!   Boosting or cutting frequencies has nothing to do with it.  (and btw, you cannot boost what is not there to begin with. Basic Audio 101).

Obviously I was referring to the overall huge difference in fidelity of the signal which is a light years difference to my ears, but a clear difference at the very least to all ears.

The HD lacks that airy sound, the higher order harmonics, the brilliance overtones. Its like comparing a Rossetta to the converters of a first generation M-Audio soundcard.

And quite frankly Karl, you are the one who has become the irritant, once again making assumptions that I have not tried the Axe FX. Please refrain from such comments.  But YO - buddy!  I went to school for audio, I can tell instantly whats a toy and whats a serious piece of machinery. There is no comparision here. Perhaps the HD is worth the 500 dollars as I think its great tool for getting down ideas!   But the Axe is worth like $60,000 at the least considering what it can do!

And please do not downplay my capacity for being able to bring out a valid potential to compare in the HD 500 within a couple of hours to represent itself in an A-B test.   And such was the actual case with regards to my conclusions after much more than a couple of hours but I actually gave it a few days.

It doesn't take a professional months as you have shown that it takes you - to be able to make valid judgments on the fidelity and level of premium quality (or not) of a set of units. Please trust my level of expertise on this matter.   I am not an amateur.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by phil_m on 2010-11-16 06:22:17
And quite frankly Karl, you are the one who has become the irritant, not
again making assumptions that I have not tried the axe FX.   Dude!  I
went to school for audio, I can tell instantly whats a toy and whats a
serious piece of machinery.

I don't really know what going to school for audio has to do with anything here.  I have a masters degree in engineering and I'm a registered engineer.  I've designed electrical systems for multi-million dollar building.  The equipment I deal with on a regular basis dwarfs pretty much all types of audio equipment in its complexity.  It just seems to me that you doth protest too much.  If you want some sort of validation for your opinion, go hang out at the Axe-FX forums.  I'm sure there's plenty of guys there who will stroke your ego.  Frankly, I don't care what you like, what you own, or what your credentials are.  Your actions here are anything but professional.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Dime13 on 2010-11-16 06:25:12

"I don't really know what going to school for audio has to do with anything here."

The HD is an audio unit.  And hence the ability of my ear to discern the level of sound fidelity of a unit falsely claimed to have the High definition of the Axe FX.

And excuse me but what does electrical systems in a building have to do with the fidelity of audio systems?  lol

And I am making a response to the challenges presented in this thread that the HD competes with the Axe when it clearly does not.

"The equipment I deal with on a regular basis dwarfs pretty much all types of audio equipment in its complexity."

HUH?  Ok then perhaps you can tell us how the equipment you deal with dwarfs the programming in the Axe FX.  Care to compare any programming and algorithm-related info in the equipment you deal with that would be superior?  In what respect



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by phil_m on 2010-11-16 06:38:56
What does electrical systems in a building have to do with the fidelity of audio systems?  lol

Plenty, actually.  The point is I spend a great deal of time evaluating  the claims of all sorts of manufacturers about all sorts of products.   Stuff that costs many times more than the things we're talking about  here.  It doesn't take any type of special audio training to know what  sounds good and what doesn't, although, I've also designed sound systems  at the professional level as well.  To me, the fact you're claiming to  hear or not hear something in the HD500 that others don't based on your  education is just a bit laughable. I'm not saying, nor have I ever said,  the Axe isn't a better unit than the HD500.  I do doubt that it's worth  more than three times the price, though.





And I am making a response to the challenges presented in this thread
that the HD competes with the Axe when it clearly does not.


Again, I think the HD500 will actually make a dent in the Axe market  simply because it offers very good amp modeling and effects at a  fraction of the cost.  The difference at the margins of these simply  won't be worth it for the average working guitarist to spend the extra  thousands of dollars for an Axe-FX rig.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2010-11-16 06:56:16

FarBeyond3 wrote:


But YO - buddy!  I went to school for audio, I can tell instantly whats a toy and whats a serious piece of machinery. There is no comparision here. Perhaps the HD is worth the 500 dollars as I think its great tool for getting down ideas!   But the Axe is worth like $60,000 at the least considering what it can do!

See, now you're just embarassing yourself.  I've also gone to school in the same subject for the last 25 years, except mine wasn't an accredited institution.  It was the school of rock.  And I can also tell quality gear when I play it.  Again, you don't own an Axe-Fx and you haven't gigged one, as you said so yourself.  You've swallowed the notion that no other piece of gear can compare to it and that's simply not true.  It's a trap a lot of Axe-Fx fans fall into.  Then after a while, some of those same folks quietly sell off their units and don't tell anyone about it because they don't want to admit they fell so hard for it.

The Axe is a damn fine piece of modeling gear.  So are the Eleven Rack and the HD series.  There isn't one that is THE ANSWER.  And none of them are toys.  I just get a huge kick out of the fact that you are so invested in and enamored over a piece of gear you don't own.  Wanting is always better than having.  Just remember that.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by ozbadman on 2010-11-16 09:25:43

FarBeyond3 wrote:


Please trust my level of expertise on this matter.   I am not an amateur.

Never include this is an argument. It's weak. Never 'trust' anybody about anything. It's lazy. If you can't convince people with facts, you don't win the argument. Take the time out to investigate it yourself, and agree with them based on your own conclusions. BTW, I own an AXE-FX, and an HD500, and so far, none of your arguments have convinced me of the vast superiority of the AXE-FX. Karl also has owned both, so maybe we need to turn this back into a discussion and high-horses need to take a ride.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2010-11-16 09:53:49

Thank you, Oz.  School learning, unfortunately, means absolute zip.  I have two degrees in Chemistry which I didn't use outside of graduate school, but neither of them makes me a professional chemist (U.S. version).  I have absolutely no schooling in software development other than many years of experience, and I work as a software architect for one of the largest financial institutions in the U.S.  So I'd be a pro at that.  I have met plenty of people with CS or AE degrees that don't work in their field.

DingFriesAreDone.jpg

Ultimately, it's all personal taste anyway.  A good piece of gear to me might be crap to you.  Whatever.  Let's not get emotionally attached to any of it.  And let's return to the spirit of the thread which was:  I think the 500 is a cool piece of gear.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by waytooslow on 2010-11-16 14:14:44

But But - my dogs better than your dog....

IMHO the axe is richer in tonality and has a thicker sound palette... that being said - I probably will get a HD500 just for costs. Better value for "most" players....



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by ozbadman on 2010-11-16 14:19:32

For me, HD500 WAYYYY easier to edit, and CustomTone is way easier to use. HD500 Setlists is brilliant for organising. the Axe-FX continuous 300+ patches is really difficult to navigate. The AXE-FX Distorted tones seem better, and there's more of them than the HD500, but so far, I'm preferring the clean tones on the HD500.

So for me, if you're a metal/shredder guy, you're gonna love the AXE-FX, but if you're a blues/medium rock guy, and you want to play rather than program your device, the HD500 may be for you.

My 2c.

David.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Dime13 on 2010-11-17 18:49:20

Ozbadman wrote: If you can't convince people with facts, you don't win the argument.  Take the time out to investigate it yourself, and agree with them based  on your own conclusions.

You are being unfair since Line 6 does not give out proprietary programming-related and algorithm-related information to customers.

BTW, I own an AXE-FX, and an HD500, and so far,  none of your arguments have convinced me of the vast superiority of the  AXE-FX.

So you do not notice a difference in fidelity?  You either  notice a clear difference or you do not.  You cannot have this both  ways.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Dime13 on 2010-11-17 18:57:17

Karl wrote: Ultimately, it's all personal taste anyway.  A good piece of gear to me  might be crap to you.  Whatever.  Let's not get emotionally attached to  any of it.  And let's return to the spirit of the thread which was:  I  think the 500 is a cool piece of gear.


And I am not being uncivil in anyway by challenging that notion.


In addition, I have shown how it should be called the POD 500 and not the POD HD 500.  - (interesting how you have ironically left out the HD letters too in that last post. LOL!)


And the fidelity of a product is not a matter of taste, it is absolute  fact which is higher fidelity.  But you have to pick one as higher quality recardless of what die of the discussion to are on....  either the HD is higher fidelity or the Axe is - one of them has to be, regardless of anyone's opinion.   That quality assesment is not a matter of taste, its a matter of programming,  DSP capabilities, and hardware components.


And btw, I have now had a chance to get a side by side A - B going with an Axe.  I have also compared the HD to the guitar tracks only of a major studio recording.  Both  the major studio recording and the Axe FX are what really sound HD as in "high definition", but I am not sure what Line 6 meant by using the letters HD.


I am not wasting my time anymore with this fact.  Do the comparision and investigations yourself. 



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2010-11-17 19:04:31

FarBeyond3 wrote:

You are being unfair since Line 6 does not give out proprietary programming-related and algorithm-related information to customers.

Please help me understand this, seriously.  Why would knowing how the algorithms were constructed help you judge what you're hearing?  Fractal doesn't give that information out either, by the way.

So you do not notice a difference in fidelity?  You either  notice a clear difference or you do not.  You cannot have this both  ways.

There are clear differences for sure.  About 1500 of them.   There isn't enough of a difference in fidelity, as you describe it, to make $1500 difference to me.  Sure the Axe does some things better, but the 500 does some things so well for me as to not make enough of a difference.

The really funny part here is that you have two people who have owned, played, and gigged both units telling you the same thing and you're still not believing they're sincere about it.  It's okay, you can like whatever unit you want.  Believe me, the Axe is one damn fine piece of gear.  And when they make a compact floor unit like the HD500 at a lower price point, I'll be a Fractal customer again because they make good stuff.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Dime13 on 2010-11-17 19:07:14

I dont know, ask the person who told me to provide the actual evidence in post 113.  How can I if its not available?  So I originally told you I trust my ears.

Fine, there is two on here who had both telling m the difference is not great, but why are the fractal members who also have both - why are they telling me the difference is light years?

Ok I would not say light years after hearing both but i can assure you I hear a noticeable difference.  Whether that difference is $1500, I am not sure about.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2010-11-18 05:07:15

FarBeyond3 wrote:


why are the fractal members who also have both - why are they telling me the difference is light years?

Some people are going to try and justify that their $2000 toy is still the best toy on the block and that the newer toy couldn't possibly be anywhere near as good.  Many of those folks are just trying to justify the ownership of the Axe.  It certainly isn't light years different, and anyone on that forum that says it is...well...I'll leave you to decide their motivation.  Keep in mind, I'm also a member on the Fractal forum and also voiced my opinion there.  And it isn't the universal opinion of everyone there that the Axe is light years better.

Ok I would not say light years after hearing both but i can assure you I hear a noticeable difference.  Whether that difference is $1500, I am not sure about.

There you go.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by bbenham on 2010-11-18 07:49:22

FarBeyond3 wrote:

Whether that difference is $1500, I am not sure about.

Don't forget to add the cost of a MIDI foot pedal.  How much better sound do you expect per dollar?  How about for two grand more?  To me the HD's sound great.  Are they Axe's?  Nope.  Am I happy?  Yep.  Do I still have the $2000 in my pocket?  Yep.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by wardick on 2010-11-18 13:30:04

I think this thread will eventually die.  In 3 years when the POD HDII comes out a thread of similar nature will ensue.  History will continue to repeat itself.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Dime13 on 2010-11-22 09:12:30

Ok so I gave the HD500 a more fair chance and thorough assessment and review.  Here is my verdict as a user who is a tone freak when it comes to metal tone:


Ok, my bad for being exaggeratedly harsh on a unit you guys like - this unit is actually not too bad - but this is just for rough tracking, pre production, and a back-up for live use.  In case my real amps or any other gear connected to the real amps fail.  And will serve as a backup to the Axe-FX


Nevertheless, I have decided to keep my HD500 until the HD pro comes out. I changed my mind about  returning it because I needed something for rought tracking.   But there is really no further in depth editing other than the basic edits for boneheads. (Come one guys this thing is just a toy! LOL)  And there is barely any surface level tweaking of modulation effects, etc.  

But after hours and hours of trying to go through the  impulses which are nothing special i got something half-decent... (and BTW, why in gods name can you not load your own impulses? .. jeeezzz - the HD Pro coming out better have user imported IR capability because alot of these IRs are weak).

So after hours of fiddling with amps - after all this struggling until the late hours - i was finally able to get something acceptable and decent out of the HD (but all the EQs are just not too great.  These are just the same EQs as the previous Pod. Except - where the hell is the API model with the mid and low mid knobs from Pod Farm 2????)


And why is the JCM 800 amp broken?  LOL.  To get that edgy 5150-type tone similar to an 800 on 75 speakers or a 5150, I had to pull up the second angel amp because the JCM 800 is broken and barely has any distortion.  LOL.  Is there an update fix to this?   Or this could be a different 800 that was modeled than the previous POD and Pod farm - maybe this one is like an ACDC style 800 or something - but it still sounds broken.    So I was luckily able to get something closer to my sound with the Second angel amp.


I had to insert 4 EQs after the amp, but these EQs are not very refined at all.  And extremely limited bandwidth flexibility... but does anyone know where that Studio EQ that modeled the API in Pod Farm 2 went?  Why is this not in there? The studio EQ in this only has 2 bands Lo and Hi!   LOL!


Anyways, after hours and hours or tweaking - and then more hours and hours of re-tweaking because it so easy to lose your patches by accident with accidental knob slips, i got something that I could consider decent for merely just laying down ideas in pro tools - but likely not to be used on a release due to missing harmonic content.  (And NO, eq-ing does not bring those harmonics in LOL. you must be careful with all the EQs in the POD because if you try to insert highs which are not there to begin with, you get some very shrill ear bleed) -


So then In pro tools, tons of artificial processing had to be done to lay down something decent.   This was to add in missing harmonic content (with harmonic exciters, and Waves plug-ins, [even some semi-mastering in real time to the tone as it was being routed through to the tracks had to be done with routing through 4-5 auxes,  multiple Parametric -EQ layering, parrallel EQing, paraller compression, etc...],


So after tons and tons of processing -  I was able to get something about 85% close to the real deal to lay down as opposed to below 60% with previous PODS.  Therefore I have decided to keep the HD500 for preproduction ideas.  But the verdict is only "Semi-HD". But I will give it that.


Karl, the only way I can comprehend your idea of selling that Axe is assuming that you are not working on any serious a recording projects at the moment and that you have decided to give up your quest as a serious recording musician.  This is the only rational explanation for your decision to sell the Axe FX.   The HD500 is ok, fun to play around with, but I remain perplexed - especially after what I heard the Axe can do with barely any tweaking - everything sounds good on it, on the HD500, it takes forever to dial in something decent.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by silverhead on 2010-11-22 09:26:31

FarBeyond3 wrote:

.......

Karl, the only way I can comprehend your idea of selling that Axe is assuming that you are not working on any serious a recording projects at the moment and that you have decided to give up your quest as a serious recording musician.  This is the only rational explanation for your decision to sell the Axe FX.   The HD500 is ok, fun to play around with, but I remain perplexed - especially after what I heard the Axe can do with barely any tweaking - everything sounds good on it, on the HD500, it takes forever to dial in something decent.

You know, you almost had me there, thinking you might be a decent human being after all, until you blew it with that final absolutely insulting, arrogant, unncessary and indefensible comment. Who the H%** are you to presume anything about Karl's intentions or reasons for selling (he's stated them several times, by the way), much less his 'quest' as you call it? Just go away, finally, for once and for all. Find someone who cares about your self-described professionalism and God-given ears.

In my nearly two years on this forum you are the most insufferable participant I have encountered. Congratulations.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2010-11-22 09:35:09

FarBeyond3 wrote:

And why is the JCM 800 amp broken? LOL.  This is a different 800 that was modeled in the previous POD and Pod farm - with barely any distortion - its like an ACDC style 800 or something.  

Well, it isn't broken.  It is, as you surmised, a different JCM800.  This is the original JCM800, unmodded, that so many people BEGGED to be modeled again afer the PODxt 2.x update replaced it with a Bogner modded one that most people thought had FAR too much gain.  AC/DC style 800...lol

Karl, the only way I can comprehend your idea of selling that Axe is assuming that you are not working on any serious a recording projects at the moment

You are correct, sir!  I'm a gigging guitarist, not a recording one.  As stated previously, I sold my Axe to invest in some good all-tube amps to use for that purpose.  And I play those out 3-4 nights a week.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by sheguitarplayer2 on 2010-11-22 10:10:15

One of the things not being mentioned here is the total price of an axefx and its dedicated controller. I say this because there have been so many posts on the axefx forum from users unable to get other controllers to 'communicate fully with the axefx, and who (including me) had come to the conclusion that the dedicated foot controller was the best answer. It was while waiting for one of these that I accidentally came accross the HD500 as I have explained earlier in this thread.

The total cost of the axefx ultra and its dedicated foot controller in the UK is approx. £2700. This is the only way to my knowledge to give the same level of communication between the axefx and foot controller as the pod HD500 pedals have with the rest of the unit. Granted the axefx setup can do a lot more as well, but even after spending £2700 you still need to buy a foot controller.

When I discovered the price of the foot controller (after 2 years with the axefx) I baulked. I had just bought the hd500 for £409, and for live use coupled with a tube power amp there was very little difference between the pod and the axefx.

I have to say I sold the axefx very quickly after that.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by phil_m on 2010-11-22 10:19:12
Karl, the only way I can comprehend your idea of selling that Axe is 
assuming that you are not working on any serious a recording projects at
the moment

Yeah, Karl, where are your Youtube videos showing off your mad skillz?  Everyone knows any guitarist worth anything is constantly recording himself in his (or perhaps his mom's) basement, trying to come up with the perfect tone.

It is kind of a paradox of living the digital recording era.  We all have at our fingertips more technology than most studios dreamt of having 30 or 40 years ago (heck, maybe even 10 years ago), but we're recording that most likely will never get heard by that big of an audience.  I'm almost at the point in my now where I'd say there's an inverse relationship between the amount someone talks about gear and the perfect tone and their actual playing ability.  I say almost, because I think good players will instinctively still be drawn to good-sounding equipment.  But what I don't hear is good player constantly obsessing over tonal minutae.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Dime13 on 2010-11-22 10:24:53

Silverhead writes:

"You know, you almost had me there, thinking you might be a decent  human being after all, until you blew it with that final absolutely  insulting, arrogant, unncessary and indefensible comment. Who the H%**  are you to presume anything about Karl's intentions or reasons for  selling (he's stated them several times, by the way), much less his  'quest' as you call it? Just go away, finally, for once and for all.  Find someone who cares about your self-described professionalism and  God-given ears.

In my nearly two years on this forum you are the most insufferable participant I have encountered. Congratulations."


Wow... lol...   take it easy man... you are seriosuly miinterpreting!  Actually, I would like to clarify my stance because it is possible that Karl is a very serious recording musician, even if he does not own an axe fx anymore.  Perhaps, just like a pre-production video i have been referring to, [EDIT: perhaps maybe he does not need an Axe FX at home... i can understand this],   and then perhapds he prefers the real thing with real amps and real cabs recorded in a premium studio as he has stated his preference for real tube amps above in response to me.     Calm down man!  I was just multi-tasking during the writing of that message with short-term-memory lapses and thewn came across a cool pre-production video which had a world class musician using a bean at home! 


All I was trying to clarify was that there is professional release-quality stuff possible at home and pro home studios - to which I now believe that axe-FX is an indispensable tool for industry standard pro home recording studios....  - and differentiating that between "pre-production home studios.  That is quite a difference!


I never meant to insult anyone... its just the way i explain myself is sometimes misinterpreted on here.  I know Karl knows his stuff.  I am not downplaying Karl's espertise.


And I am just clarifying to the others who think i am assuming  anything about the level of their professionalism - that came out wrong  - no assumptions as to what Karl is musically pursuing will be made  again.... I just forgot to also grant that it is possible that serious  recordings start off with rough home-quality stuff and then people take care of the minute details of the quality later.   But please do not take what i responded with as so mis-interpreted. 



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Dime13 on 2010-11-22 10:57:47

If the gigs are small to medium and you are using your cabs or amps as the monitors 9something that alot of bands make arrangements for these days) - then I can understand that - but the purpose of having an axe FX is also one that entails a perfect live sound, because often one runs into crappy audio people at gigs who cannot get the mic on the cab to sound good through the monitors.   So your sell of the Axe unit even considering live gigging, and even considering that investment in the floor board and case and power conditioning for it - still amazes me.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2010-11-22 11:11:17

FarBeyond3 wrote:


the purpose of having an axe FX is also one that entails a perfect live sound, because often one runs into crappy audio people at gigs who cannot get the mic on the cab to sound good through the monitors.   So your sell of the Axe unit even considering live gigging, and even considering that investment in the floor board and case and power conditioning for it - still amazes me.

We typically don't run into crappy audio people because we hire them.  If they were crappy, they wouldn't get hired.  Most live sound guys understand how to put a mic in front of a guitar cab and get good results.  VERY FEW of them understood the Axe-Fx.  I had to constantly explain, even to the best of them, how to go about setting it up.  And they still fought me on it.  The idea, to them, that I had the sound coming to their board already optimized was a total mystery to most of them.  Because they are used to a few time-proven cab mic'ing formulas for live work and dealing with a really good direct signal isn't usually in their bag of tricks.  As far as I know, I was the only Axe-Fx user on our circuit.  No sound guy had ever seen one before, and most guitarists didn't know what it was either.

I still don't understand the amazement.  Tube amps sound great.  And no matter how good the Axe-Fx is, the real deal sounds better and any honest user of the Axe-Fx will tell you that.  Tube amp and pedals: a time-tested, road-approved rig.  It just works, man.  I like simple.  Three tones on my amp, controlled by a few knobs, and supplemented by some simple pedal effects is about what I can reasonably handle when responding to live playing situations.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by phil_m on 2010-11-22 11:20:17

After years of having to play direct, I can tell you my preference is always to hear myself through my own amp if possible.  And that was after playing through a high-priced FOH system with a separate, dedicated monitor system both with wedges and in-ears.  It's just not the same type of experience, even if it can sound really good out of the FOH speakers.  I don't doubt that Axe or HD500 can both sound excellent in a live situation, but I just think it's hard being totally dependent on a sound guy just to hear yourself.  I also think it's somewhat to mess up something like putting an SM57 or Sennheiser E609 in front of an amp - heck even if you just drape the E609 over the front of a combo with the front side pressed against the speaker grille, it can sound good.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2010-11-22 13:16:02

phil_m wrote:

After years of having to play direct, I can tell you my preference is always to hear myself through my own amp if possible.  And that was after playing through a high-priced FOH system with a separate, dedicated monitor system both with wedges and in-ears.  It's just not the same type of experience,

Exactly my experience. I even bought my own monitoring system so I'd hear it the way I wanted to hear it.  But it still sounded a lot like a mic'd amp and not the real thing.

I also think it's somewhat (hard) to mess up something like putting an SM57 or Sennheiser E609 in front of an amp - heck even if you just drape the E609 over the front of a combo with the front side pressed against the speaker grille, it can sound good.

Exactly what I do with my Mesa combo in church.  Hang a 609 and run with it.  Easy.  For the big stuff at clubs and the like, I let the sound guy run whatever he wants.  Usually a 609 or a 57.  Although I had one guy use a kick drum mic that sounded AMAZING.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Dime13 on 2010-11-22 20:24:53

Karl writes:

Karl_Houseknecht wrote:

We typically don't run into crappy audio people because we hire them.  If they were crappy, they wouldn't get hired.  Most live sound guys understand how to put a mic in front of a guitar cab and get good results.  VERY FEW of them understood the Axe-Fx.  I had to constantly explain, even to the best of them, how to go about setting it up.  And they still fought me on it.


And you call these "good" audio people?  Those who cannot immediately connect the dots on something meant for DI to their board? Jeez, people have been doing it for ages with Pods and GT 8s, and GT6, etc... ZOom, Vox, Korg boards... etc, so whoever your audio people were who reacted like that should have been fired for being total goofs.

May I ask if you have had any feedback as to your live sound from the crowd when your amp was miked??  Is your music noisy high gain music?

There is no possibly chance that a live miced cab could have sounded as good as your axe coming through the soundboard.   Everyone notes how much better Messugah sounds than every band they play with who uses live miked cabs - everyones notices that the difference in sound Messugah has live kills everyone else... because it is very difficult to get it right live.  In the studio there is careful matching of mics to the way a pseaker moves at a certain level - the grill is often removed, or a flash light is used to determine the movement of the cone.  This is why the axe sounds so much better live than a sound guy miking up a cab - especially for high gain stuff - because it is hard to get it right live - there is no time to tweak all night like they do in studios... the Axe is already tweaked and its as if you are playing someting mastered live.

The idea, to them, that I had the sound coming to their board already optimized was a total mystery to most of them.  Because they are used to a few time-proven cab mic'ing formulas for live work and dealing with a really good direct signal isn't usually in their bag of tricks.  


And you see thats just it - it is unlikely that a live sound person no matter how skilled could ever match the sound of the axe FX because as I have noted above - thats like bringing something studio quality high fidelity to a show.

  As far as I know, I was the only Axe-Fx user on our circuit.  No sound guy had ever seen one before, and most guitarists didn't know what it was either.

And most still don't.  I am $800 away.

I still don't understand the amazement.  Tube amps sound great.  And no matter how good the Axe-Fx is, the real deal sounds better and any honest user of the Axe-Fx will tell you that.  Tube amp and pedals: a time-tested, road-approved rig.  It just works, man.  I like simple.  Three tones on my amp, controlled by a few knobs, and supplemented by some simple pedal effects is about what I can reasonably handle when responding to live playing situations.

Excuse me sir, sure a tube amp sounds better but you are not being fair in this comparision which is miked cabs for live sound which is a whole different ball game as I have demonstrated.  I have noticed a pattern in tons of testimony from those at shows even who do not notice audio difference s and the theme is how much better a band using axe FXs sound than the bands with miked cabs.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Dime13 on 2010-11-22 20:43:16

phil_m wrote:

After years of having to play direct, I can tell you my preference is always to hear myself through my own amp if possible.  And that was after playing through a high-priced FOH system with a separate, dedicated monitor system both with wedges and in-ears.  It's just not the same type of experience, even if it can sound really good out of the FOH speakers.  I don't doubt that Axe or HD500 can both sound excellent in a live situation, but I just think it's hard being totally dependent on a sound guy just to hear yourself.  I also think it's somewhat to mess up something like putting an SM57 or Sennheiser E609 in front of an amp - heck even if you just drape the E609 over the front of a combo with the front side pressed against the speaker grille, it can sound good.


An ideal setup would be to use raised cabs as monitors like slayer sometimes does with those massive mode 4 cabinets placed up high like 10 up high left and 10 up high right in the shape of 2 massive upside down crosses  - with all cabs on blasted acting as the monitors - not even miked.  Then this would be better than an axe fx - or other bands in smaller to medium sized venues who sometimes make arrangements to have a cab or two raised to act as the actual monitors!    I agree this would be better than an Axe FX due to the real feeling of pushed tube amps into straight up cabs - no need for mic if the venue is small enough... several cabs are ideal though for angling them slightly - but it is very rare when bands can make arrangements for such safe fixture risers and supports for the cabs - or hanging cab setups up on wire. .


But for bands without the manpower or hooksups for that, the next best thing is plugging the guitar into a splitter where one signal goes to their whole amp setup amp on stage behind them for the pushed air feel they like from a real cab to have that experience on stage while playing   - and the other signal going to the axe FX to be played through the monitors for the crowd to experience studio quality sound at a live venue - because even if the sound guy gets the best mic position, with the best level of the amp moving the pseaker in just the right way - chances are its going into crappy dbx pres,  crappy low end dbx rack compressors and crappy low end dbx EQs eqs.  And some venues more medium grade equipment or a mix....  But generally,   this is not the equipment I would want my rig to go through.... (i even use my own mic preamp for my vocalist and for myself live and my own mics.  

But the axe is like feeding a world class studio processed signal direct to the mixing board.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2010-11-22 20:44:26

FarBeyond3 wrote:

And you call these "good" audio people?  sound than the bands with miked cabs.

Yes.  There are plenty of great AE's in the recording industry that don't understand modelers either.  They know how to mic a guitar cab, and that's what they like.

May I ask if you have had any feedback as to your live sound from the crowd when your amp was miked??

I'll give you one better than that, even.  Guitarist friend of mine that also runs sound for one of the companies we hire on a regular basis played my Axe rig.  He really liked it.  Commented on how great it sounded, how great it felt.  He was suitably impressed, and one of the sound guys that did understand it.

But one rehearsal, for fun, I brought a TSL100 and a 412 along with my GT-10 for effects.  After the first song he told me that in no uncertain terms was I ever to bring the Axe again, that the real amp sounded better.  There was agreement from the band too on that matter.  So that's when I decided to stop fighting the Axe and go with what I know and, apparently, what works well for me.  Sold the Axe and bought a Sig:X, which is like that TSL on steroids.  Keep the TSL for backup and for a change every now and then.

The crowd?  They're a bunch of people that like to dance and get drunk.  They know very little about guitar tone.  And I'm sure they don't go around to every other band in town and tell them that miked amps suck.  Because every other band in town mikes their amps.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Dime13 on 2010-11-22 20:45:43

Karl_Houseknecht wrote:


I even bought my own monitoring system so I'd hear it the way I wanted to hear it.  But it still sounded a lot like a mic'd amp and not the real thing.

I suggest the splitter to a stage amp idea.

Exactly what I do with my Mesa combo in church.  Hang a 609 and run with it.  Easy.  For the big stuff at clubs and the like, I let the sound guy run whatever he wants.  Usually a 609 or a 57.  Although I had one guy use a kick drum mic that sounded AMAZING.

I tend to first investigate in the larger clubs what they are running as rack processing gear since some stuff might not be to my liking and other stuff on their rack could be just too thin.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2010-11-22 20:47:10

FarBeyond3 wrote:

An ideal setup would be to use raised cabs as monitors like slayer sometimes does with those massive mode 4 cabinets placed up high like 10 up high left and 10 up high right in the shape of 2 massive upside down crosses  - with all cabs on blasted acting as the monitors - not even miked. 

And without speakers in them.  You do realize those are dummy cabs, right?  And that their FOH guitar tone is coming from a 112 in an iso box underneath the stage?



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Dime13 on 2010-11-22 20:50:14

Karl_Houseknecht wrote:


I'll give you one better than that, even.  Guitarist friend of mine that also runs sound for one of the companies we hire on a regular basis played my Axe rig.  He really liked it.  Commented on how great it sounded, how great it felt.  He was suitably impressed, and one of the sound guys that did understand it.

But one rehearsal, for fun, I brought a TSL100 and a 412 along with my GT-10 for effects.  After the first song he told me that in no uncertain terms was I ever to bring the Axe again, that the real amp sounded better.  There was agreement from the band too on that matter.

Well then perhaps these audio people had some very high end processing gear on their racks that made it sound big.  I am not saying you are not gettin better sound with real equipment - and if you are sounding better than an AXE through to the monitors, then I would have to hear that to believe it.

But i guess metal bands do not get to play in alot of high end clubs -  mostly run down hell holes, and mostly run into crappy entry level DBX processing equipment at FOH.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2010-11-22 20:55:20

Well, I'm not exactly in a metal band.  And while I play my share of holes in the wall, which we do hire good sound for, we also play our share of 1000+ person shows in nice clubs, also with pro sound that we hire.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Dime13 on 2010-11-22 20:59:51

Karl_Houseknecht wrote:

And without speakers in them.  You do realize those are dummy cabs, right?  And that their FOH guitar tone is coming from a 112 in an iso box underneath the stage?

For many shows, every single one of those cabs is loaded and on acting as monitors, and every single cab has speakers in them - and i might add heavy GK 100s too.

And that their FOH guitar tone is coming from a 112 in an iso box underneath the stage?

Where are you getting your information? Nothing could be further from the truth.  Anytime Slayer decides to mic their cabs, this is the way they do it - they put a Heil PR30 on one cab and they put a Heil PR40 on another cab. In this case they perhaps might not load all the cabs but I cannot conirm that.    But they do NOT use iso boxes. They do not need to.  Here is a picture to prove my assertions.  (And btw - those Heils are the best dynamic microphones in the world.   I tried them - and they kill all other dynamics I have recorded cabs with - pricy too  at  $300 and $500 bucks a pop)

MarshallStack_Slayer.jpg

But I know for a fact aside from this exact miking method at times, that they are also known on the other hand to use their cabs as monitors as well with every  single one of them on when they use the multiple active cab method.  Yeah ok then that would be better than an axe.   The house monitors in those situations are used only for the drums, vocals, and bass, plus subs in some situations.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by amgamg on 2010-11-23 03:51:13

So....a guy tries a product that Line6 makes and likes it. Likes it better than another product. That spawns all this??????

I always figure if ya dont like some companies wares...you just go ahead and use anothers. I just cant understand any of this! Did Line 6 shoot your dog? Did Line 6 poke your women? Did Line 6 pat ya down at the airport? All this just brings everything down. Is that on purpose just to prop yourself up? Perhaps you needed a couple of more games of catch with your dad and now your taking it out on the world.Its a shame you need to make a fool of yourself till you get $800 bucks and buy your Axe. Dude..you were funny at first...now your looking pathetic. Sorry to tell ya that but its true. Sometimes I just gotta say whats on "MY" mind! I feel better now! Cya!



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2010-11-23 04:45:31

FarBeyond3 wrote:

Where are you getting your information? Nothing could be further from the truth.  Anytime Slayer decides to mic their cabs, this is the way they do it - they put a Heil PR30 on one cab and they put a Heil PR40 on another cab. In this case they perhaps might not load all the cabs but I cannot conirm that.    But they do NOT use iso boxes. They do not need to.  Here is a picture to prove my assertions.  (picture of wall of fake Marshall cabs deleted)

LOL...Okay amgamg is right.  Now you're just making a fool of yourself.  Sorry, you were kinda making sense earlier a little bit, but I can't believe I fell for the whole act.  I should have known better, and I'll end this now.  But not without a quick shot of how another famous band mikes up their cabs:

<a target=new href=http://jimmydoane.com/images/Rush/Geddy_Lee_Chickens.jpg" class="jive-image" src="http://jimmydoane.com/images/Rush/Geddy_Lee_Chickens.jpg"/>

Abstaineth-Ye-from-nourishment-of-the-kobolds.jpg



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by amgamg on 2010-11-23 05:19:38

So I google Kobolda780_1.jpg



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2010-11-23 05:35:28

I was going for an archaic word for "troll".  Kobold was suggested in the thesaurus.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by amgamg on 2010-11-23 06:04:08

Theres an interesting history to it. Describes a mence over disagreement about who was served over  mining ...I dont know everything about it by a long shot...like many things from way back...the pic just tries to make a  vivid point.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Dime13 on 2010-11-23 19:27:44

amgamg wrote:

So....a guy tries a product that Line6 makes and likes it. Likes it better than another product. That spawns all this??????

I always figure if ya dont like some companies wares...you just go ahead and use anothers. I just cant understand any of this! Did Line 6 shoot your dog? Did Line 6 poke your women? Did Line 6 pat ya down at the airport? All this just brings everything down. Is that on purpose just to prop yourself up? Perhaps you needed a couple of more games of catch with your dad and now your taking it out on the world.Its a shame you need to make a fool of yourself till you get $800 bucks and buy your Axe. Dude..you were funny at first...now your looking pathetic. Sorry to tell ya that but its true. Sometimes I just gotta say whats on "MY" mind! I feel better now! Cya!

Wow i think you are the one looking quite a bit more pathetic if you are going to be that big of an over sensitive p%ssy to this.

And no nothing to prop myself up, actually the matter is irrelevant to my self esteem - i just speak the truth according to facts and the programming and algorithm related  info about the axe-fx to prove it.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Dime13 on 2010-11-23 19:31:04

amgamg wrote:

Theres an interesting history to it. Describes a mence over disagreement about who was served over  mining ...I dont know everything about it by a long shot...like many things from way back...the pic just tries to make a  vivid point.

Perhaps, but an invalid one at best, as per my previous entry.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by amgamg on 2010-11-23 20:00:16

th_headass.jpgHey look..a pic of FarBeyond3 trying to tell if the AXE really is better!



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by beteasta351 on 2010-11-23 20:37:21

Hate to butt-in but i was reading this thread for fun. You guys are taking it too seriously, tone down a bit. Both units are good. The Axe is going to be better, ok, more time and detail was put into it, but heck look at this, the Axe is 4 times the price (at least the ultra) and the POD HD sounds freaking great, i love mine to death. Who cares whats better, im not dissing anyone, no reason to get angry, none of us know each other personally (the majority of us dont) and theres really no point in fighting, you guys just sound like idiots complaining about this whole thing and going nuts on your computer. What society has come to really starts to scare me.
Now, if we can reasonably call off this war so we can talk about more useful things? =)



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by arcticman on 2010-11-23 20:43:22

+1

well said



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by timowens on 2010-11-23 21:03:47

FarBeyond3 wrote:

Ok i would like to see you come say that to my face.  Lets see you try, in person...

Wow, I think you’ve just impressed about zero people with that 5th grade comment. Get a grip dude, no one is going to take you seriously now.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by amgamg on 2010-11-24 03:29:04

Honestly I agree with you. BTW there is no war. This whole thing has been going on for a very long time. I know there's a lot of equipment that is wonderful and fine and suits "Some" of the people "All" of the time. Normally I simply stay out of the controversy and only post to ask questions or get answers about the Line6 gear I use. Quite frankly I've had enough of these guys that want to surface constantly and do their best to try to make others feel like less because they of course are more. People like FarBeyond 3 go far beyond simple debate regarding what they like better. This guy isnt happy till he's belittled ..insulted...and defamed a product he doesn't have to purchase and goes as far to do the same to the users of the products he cant stand.   Sorry if I went over the top a bit...but I've had it. What ever happened to live and let live???????



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Dime13 on 2010-11-24 08:39:16

Karl_Houseknecht wrote:

I was going for an archaic word for "troll".  Kobold was suggested in the thesaurus.

Anyone can call other people names when hiding behind the security of their computer monitor many miles away. LOL. 


And yes - unwarranted name calling by you it certainly IS - as my posts were incorrectly framed as such by you....  so Im sorry to burst your bubble Mr. guitar modeling expert,  but a person is not considered a troll for merely just honestly responding to invalid comparisions of two units you and some others have made.  Please look up standard forum etiquette... but nice try either way!


And in addition, i would not rely on incomparable setups as you have shown in the rush picture to try to compare with  how I know Slayer does their set.


I know the sound of Heil mics on those exact cabs, ive known their the live setup well for over ten years and I also know from direct first hand knowledge of their setup in recent years - so nice try once again!


But actually please do keep trying your hilarious attempts - they are just funny to listen to at this point.


Because the exact reverese is true of your statement that i was acting pathetic as I have now shown that it is you who is acting very funny and clueless right now.


Good luck!



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Dime13 on 2010-11-24 08:46:07

timowens wrote:


Wow, I think you’ve just impressed about zero people with that 5th grade comment. Get a grip dude, no one is going to take you seriously now.

And how much more fifth grader can if be for another person starting the insults with such invalid labeling of me as troll?   And especially not to my face direct.

Wow my sense of smell of something coming from such long distance is really easy to sense - the fact that the smell air is chicken sh%@.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Dime13 on 2010-11-24 08:49:36

amgamg wrote:

th_headass.jpgHey look..a pic of FarBeyond3 trying to tell if the AXE really is better!

Wow.  Another insult.  Is the forum admins observing this?

Where did I even take a stab like that at anyone?

So is this what this society is about?   Someone starts being honest and they are criticized for making an honest assesement?   So then I assume you would would place more value falsehoods I guess??

oh wait,  thats right,  I forgot,  this was america.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by bbenham on 2010-11-24 09:07:14

From Wikipedia:

In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into a desired emotional response[1] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.

Sounds like he just called it as he sees it to me.

Karl originally did this thread to say why he switched and to post a few sound clips of what he was able to do.  He did this for a community of users here in the Line 6 boards.  This isn't a gated community, we welcome all.  You are entitled to you're opinions and feel free to voice them.  But please don't try to hide behind forum etiquette BS.  You've gone well beyond off topic of why he chose to switch and gone full on to harassing him for switching.  Proper etiquette would be for you to get your own thread and see if you have anyone that responds, not hijack an existing thread for you're own purpose.  This makes you a troll.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by phil_m on 2010-11-24 09:14:43

The funny thing is I don't believe anyone actually disagrees with him that the Axe-FX is better, at least on some level, than the HD500.  What people disagreed with him on was his assertion that the HD500 is a toy or not capable of "professional" recordings (whatever the he** that means...).  I don't care what people like, but I do get tired of people trying to inflate their sense of self-worth by trying to cajole everyone into affirming how they spend their money.  I have nothing against the Axe-FX, but man, I get tired of people telling me I sound like crap without it.  Somehow, rock managed to survive for decades without this glorious device, and I think we'll be OK if we choose not to use it now.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by silverhead on 2010-11-24 09:18:36

bbenham wrote:

....This makes you a troll.

+1 ....... and I repeat myself - insufferable.

Now he's gone on to insult the entire USofA. I'm Canadian but I imagine I'm also tarnished by the wide brush due to geographic proximity.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by bbenham on 2010-11-24 09:30:31

silverhead wrote:

I'm Canadian but I imagine I'm also tarnished by the wide brush due to geographic proximity.

Junior American!  I kid!  No, really, that was total /sarcasm

I live in Detroit so that proximity is a real blur zone here.  Ya'll make great neighbors.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by silverhead on 2010-11-24 09:54:30

Ah yes - Detroit - our Windsor suburb!

Happy Thanksgiving! We had ours several weeks ago (shorter growing season, earlier harvest - the tradition is the same but the timing is different).



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by tubealot on 2010-11-24 10:00:17

Third-party-facepalm.jpg



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by amgamg on 2010-11-24 10:11:33

Your reading my mind. My age will show some with this next statement. But.... I really remember all to well when an MXR Distortion plus in front of your amp was all you could hope for so not to get thrown out of a club for being to loud. There are so many ways right now to sound good I'm at a loss to honestly say what is really the best. It doesn't matter. I really do believe the Axe/FX is top notch.  I wouldnt rule out owning one. I've been playing guitar since I was 7. I was in my first band at 14. I thought I might be a big star into my twenties. I'm in my fifties now and I play every single day. I know a good sound when I hear one. There is" No ONE GOOD Sound"! There are many...maybe even to many. In all honestly...to all who buy an AXE..Best Wishes ...to all who think I'm not savoy for not owning one or wish to infer that...Drop it already your wasting your breath.  I like the HD 500 and need no excuse for liking it. Noone else needs an excuse either.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Dbourget on 2010-11-24 10:24:12

This was an interesting post at first but I got to tell you its now totally out of control. These forums are for Line 6 discussions so I thought and not to bash each other. If you love your Axe XF then why are you here telling us how great it is? You should be at the Axe XF forums where you have so much in common with the AXE guys/girls.

I think its time for the mods to close this post down and lets get back to helping line 6 people with problems and talking about the great tones that are being made.

Just my 2 cents!

Dan

O by the way, HAPPY THANKSGIVING to you all..........



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by timowens on 2010-11-24 16:48:57

beteasta351 wrote:

Hate to butt-in ...

LOL, look at the picture in the thread you are replying to and look at your opening words, that is too funny



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by beteasta351 on 2010-11-24 17:56:37

DUDE LMAO. That is so hysterical, you freak'n owe me a new set of strings not even joking. I read that, was drinking water, and realized what you meant, dude the water got all over my strings (obviously fretboard) and now they're gonna rust. =) YOU MEANIE. Lol, anyways that is just hilarious i just realized what you meant oh god.

HAHAHAHA

~Matt



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by bbenham on 2010-11-24 18:38:40

Glad they didn't lock the thread.  That made the whole thread worthwhile. 



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by toneman2121 on 2010-11-24 21:21:12

yo far, you seem to know what you think your talking about, you think. most of these guys are voicing there opinions with years of experience behind them. it would do you good to listen and not be so hardwired into your own. i don't know what your trying to convey but it sounds like you got some kinda bug up your butt for the hd. you don't like it, fine. you think it's junk, fine. the axe is better, fine. your not gonna convince me to buy an axe when for 329 usd i can get close to the axe in the 300...and yes i left off the hd. i've been playing for a long time and i'm not too shabby. i will say i need to be more consistent in my playing. i can't read music. i don't know as much as i would like. my chord knowledge is slight. most of the things i learn i stumble upon. i don't play in a band. i don't gig. i don't know anything about recording. i don't have a desire to be a rock star. i don't like to play other artist music. i like to make my own and improvise.  but i do know what i like. and i know what sounds good. my old trusty xt does. and if these guys are saying the hd series tops the xt and x3 i'm gonna take there word for it and get one as soon as i can afford it.  so anyway with all of your skill and knowledge, why don't you post a clip and shut these guys up. i'll be the first to evaluate it. by the way, when you first started posting you were making some sense in what you were saying. but when people were showing disagreement, you took it to heart and became defensive and harsh and some of your thoughts became convoluted and rambling, and your attitude became threatening. sorry to be so honest. you gotta tone it down a bit.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2010-11-25 05:53:56

toneman2121 wrote:

sounds like you got some kinda bug up your butt for the hd. you don't like it, fine. you think it's junk, fine. the axe is better, fine.

so anyway with all of your skill and knowledge, why don't you post a clip and shut these guys up.

To be fair, he can't post a clip because he doesn't own an Axe-Fx yet.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by toneman2121 on 2010-11-25 10:58:54

the man must have something to lay down some tracks. i would just like to hear him play. maybe his playing isn't worth the axe fx



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Dime13 on 2010-11-25 17:15:15

bbenham wrote:

From Wikipedia:

In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into a desired emotional response[1] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.

Sounds like he just called it as he sees it to me.

Oh really?  Care to demonstrate your claim of any of that occuring?  You fail to show where i posted anything inflammatory.  And care to prove that such was my intent?  I din't think so.  I was just defending against unjustified claims.

You also fail to show where I posted anything extraneous, all I did was reply to reasoning that was sub-par with regards to the stated quality of a setup - especially with regards to the objective fidelity of a signal....   And then buddy there starts is the first to start making extraenous and wholly untrue claims as to certain live setups.

Nor did you show where I had any intent, never mind primary intent, of any desired incitation to an emotional emotional resoponse.

Therefore your troll claims are unfounded.

(yawn)... more unsupported claims.


Karl originally did this thread to say why he switched and to post a few sound clips of what he was able to do.  He did this for a community of users here in the Line 6 boards.

And I'm telling you the reason for switching was either invalid, or an error in judgment.  I showed reasoning why, and in a very civil way, and then we have people responding like a bunch of wild animals and then calling me a troll and hurling insults.. WTF is that all about?

You are entitled to you're opinions and feel free to voice them.  But please don't try to hide behind forum etiquette BS.  You've gone well beyond off topic of why he chose to switch and gone full on to harassing him for switching.  Proper etiquette would be for you to get your own thread and see if you have anyone that responds, not hijack an existing thread for you're own purpose.  This makes you a troll.


Nothing I have said is irrelevant so you are wrong again.   And he switched so please do not lie about what happened here... others including Karl switched it up and I responded with reasoning to where they have led me astray for no good reason - and now you mis represent me by saying I am the one who sent it off topic... nice going buddy!

But I would sincerely advise you to not distort my position with this nasty dirty tactic of yours and be advised that you are not to behave like this again or you will be reported to the admins.

Therefore others can be considered trolls here with a capital T including yourself... actually something even worse.... because as you see, there are others who have agreed with me that this Pod HD is misleading  - and I have shown why the title of it is also misleading.  And sorry to burst your bubble chief - but my main point that the unit does not sound HD and that the HD in the description is genuinely flase.

"HD500 made me sell my Axe FX.".. hm... i don't know...  That sounds like a person saying "Dodge Neon" made me sell my Space Shuttle.

This is a total waste of time.  Enjoy your HD.  Mine is going straight into the dumpster.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2010-11-25 17:35:42

FarBeyond3 wrote:


And I'm telling you the reason for switching was either invalid, or an error in judgment.  I showed reasoning why, and in a very civil way, and then we have people responding like a bunch of wild animals and then calling me a troll and hurling insults.. WTF is that all about?

To know WTF that is all about, you need look no further than the first sentence above.  You're saying I switched from an Axe-Fx to all-tube rigs was an invalid choice or an error in judgement?  Again, you don't even own an Axe-Fx.  I did.  I made the choice that was best for ME and MY needs.  And you can be the judge of what's best for my situation...how?

There are plenty of pros out there that use the Axe-Fx.  Most of the big names on the web site use it as an effects rig (Petrucci) or probably don't use it at all (Vai).  Some of the smaller players use it as a direct rig.  MOST pros don't use the Axe and actually use (gasp!) REAL AMPS.  Go tell those folks that they made errors in judgement and see how far you get with them.

You are one of those people that give Fractal people the reputation of being overzealous.  The majority of the folks on that board are very even keeled and understand where their modeler of choice fits in the grand scheme of things.  We had a guy on this board from Texas a while back that STILL doesn't own an Axe-Fx after all these years, but for the longest time trashed everything about Line6 and extolled the virtues of the Axe.  You remind me of him.  Even the guys on the Fractal forum thought he was nuts.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by spaceatl on 2010-11-25 17:39:43

reminder to self...turn email off on this thread...it's far beyond annoying now. :-(



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by bbenham on 2010-11-25 18:44:35

FarBeyond3 wrote:

But I would sincerely advise you to not distort my position with this nasty dirty tactic of yours and be advised that you are not to behave like this again or you will be reported to the admins.

I'd be willing to let the Admins make the decision on that if you feel you need to make the call.  If we get lucky they just lock the thread and you can start one of your own which will probably receive no responses.

Btw...   many people would consider the following inflammatory.  I get the fact you don't.  But I'm puzzled you think troll is worse.

FarBeyond3 wrote:

Wow i think you are the one looking quite a bit more pathetic if you are going to be that big of an over sensitive p%ssy to this.

FarBeyond3 wrote:

Ok i would like to see you come say that to my face.  Lets see you try, in person...

This falls under provoking an emotional response in the definition I quoted.  Since you wanted examples.  If you need more I'll just scroll up.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by spaceatl on 2010-11-25 19:04:14

so much for the joke...I liked the thread...but this a$$hole reminds of the reason that I never listened to Rush or Floyd early on...my first exposure to Rush and Floyd were zealots that thought there was nothing better and any alternative was sacrilege. far beyond, it's a$$holes like you that take the fun out of this biz...and these threads...thanks for being far beyond an a$$hole... toodles.. :-)



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by wardick on 2010-11-25 20:05:14

Karl_Houseknecht wrote:

We had a guy on this board from Texas a while back that STILL doesn't own an Axe-Fx after all these years, but for the longest time trashed everything about Line6 and extolled the virtues of the Axe. 

Well it tiz the season to be jolly!



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2010-11-25 20:07:27

wardick wrote:

Well it tiz the season to be jolly!

Yes, it tiz.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by silverhead on 2010-11-25 20:18:38

FarBeyond3...... buddy......... are you still here? Why?

Go Away! Scat! Shoo!!! Begone!

Let me say it out loud in case you aren't hearing....... NOBODY CARES WHAT YOU THINK!!! (except you of course - so go start your own thread and post all the inanities to yourself that you want......)



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Dime13 on 2010-11-25 21:06:17

Karl_Houseknecht wrote:



To know WTF that is all about, you need look no further than the first sentence above.  You're saying I switched from an Axe-Fx to all-tube rigs was an invalid choice or an error in judgement?  Again, you don't even own an Axe-Fx.  I did.  I made the choice that was best for ME and MY needs.  And you can be the judge of what's best for my situation...how?



Incorrect.  That was not the original purpose of your post and all your responses on the first page of this. 


On page one you posted clips and your thread title could have clearly been something different if those clips were all you were trying to post as a sample of the HD.


But then later on in your responses, before you mentioned anything about tube amps, you wrote:


"Well, the truth is that I'm finally getting to know this unit well enough that I'm getting tones that are every bit as good as what I was getting on the Axe."


And I decided to challenge those assertions which I have all the reason to believe were false and absolutely impossible claims now that I have tried both units.  You have not refuted this challenge.


You're saying I switched from an Axe-Fx to all-tube rigs was an invalid choice or an error in judgement?  Again, you don't even own an Axe-Fx.  I did.  I made the choice that was best for ME and MY needs.  And you can be the judge of what's best for my situation...how?


It does not take a test driver of a lamborghini revelon to own the actual machine to know that the machine is that much better than the chevy camaro.  As far as the axe, the unit is underpriced and industry standards dictate that the machine is worth far more - at least 8 grand, but that this actual value is a profit  that the owner of Fractal chooses not to make off his customers.


And I would not comment on what is best for your situation, for all i know you might be most happy with a Boss GT8.  But i have shown how it is impossible that the HD "gives the Axe a run for its money" as you have also stated.   This is nothing but a marketing statement for L6.


There are plenty of pros out there that use the Axe-Fx.  Most of the big names on the web site use it as an effects rig (Petrucci) or probably don't use it at all (Vai). 

Actually it is well known that Steve Vai uses it for live shows now.  So does Messugah - as the both players know that no engineer in a live venue can make miked up cabs sound as good as the basically pre-mastered sound coming as basic straight out from the axe.


 MOST pros don't use the Axe and actually use (gasp!) REAL AMPS.  Go tell those folks that they made errors in judgement and see how far you get with them.


I how can i tell them they made an error in judgment if they never had an axe that they sold in the first place?   And if they did, I would no need to tell them, as there would already be other people who know what they are doing in audio notifying such individuals or anyone who sold it in favor of an HD500 to lay off the crack - individuals who are likely more just pure musicians and not true audio people when it comes down to it.  



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Dime13 on 2010-11-25 21:10:41

Btw...   many people would consider the following inflammatory.  I get the fact you don't.  But I'm puzzled you think troll is worse.

FarBeyond3 wrote:

Wow i think you are the one looking quite a bit more pathetic if you are going to be that big of an over sensitive p%ssy to this.

FarBeyond3 wrote:

Ok i would like to see you come say that to my face.  Lets see you try, in person...

This falls under provoking an emotional response in the definition I quoted.  Since you wanted examples.  If you need more I'll just scroll up.

No it doesn't, those were responses to people already initially making the emotional challenges to me. Nice try again!

And there is no reason why a serious challenge to any notion that the HD gives the Axe a run for its money - as being a claim that is totally unsupported -  should in any way be responded to emotionally, since I supported the challenge with good reasons.  So therefore you have still been unable to provide any support whatsoever for any of your accusations of me trolling.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by bbenham on 2010-11-25 21:41:37

You are correct about one thing.  You aren't a troll.  You are a troll living in denial.

Now if you feel the need to notify the admins please feel free and let them sort it out.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Dime13 on 2010-11-25 21:51:52

bbenham wrote:

You are correct about one thing.  You aren't a troll.  You are a troll living in denial.


Anyone can make empty claims without providing evidence to support them.  As you still haven't shown how this is the case once again.  LOL.  Well, I guess now your pattern speaks for itself.


Now if you feel the need to notify the admins please feel free and let them sort it out.

I think they can figure things out for themselves.  It seems you are eager to get them involved in this, so I would suggest contacting them yourself since you have lots of time on your hands - time which would suit you well to pursue such things.  As for me, sorry, but I dont have the time.   But please do tell me how that goes.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by bbenham on 2010-11-25 21:54:15

FarBeyond3 wrote:

I think they can figure things out for themselves.  It seems you are eager to get them involved in this, so I would suggest contacting them yourself since you have lots of time on your hands - time which would suit you well to pursue such things.  As for me, sorry, but I dont have the time.   But please do tell me how that goes.

I believe you were the original one to bring them up.  But ok, you don't have time so I'll save you the trouble.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Dime13 on 2010-11-25 21:56:27

sure - and let me know how it goes!

and ya i just mentioned that they would eventually notice the foul play.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Dime13 on 2010-11-25 21:57:24

And btw, I have returned the unit already and have told  the people at the front counter at the store to immediately return it to  Line 6 for false HD advertising.  They said sorry and they did not even  charge me a restocking fee.  And they agreed that this was a letdown.

I told them if they can't  get it back to the distributor then they can throw it in the sewer and  try to write it off somehow - since in North America - scams are the  bread and butter of the continent.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by beteasta351 on 2010-11-25 23:16:41

Hate to do this, but man you suck, farbeyond. OK you AXE FX fanboy, you know what you remind me of? You remind me of one of those little kids who stands by their word at all costs even if theyre wrong. You could tell them that airplanes fly because of their wings, theyd be like no, they fly because of magic, and youd keep trying to enlighten them but they get more and more unresponsive. "BLAH BLAH BLAH, ITS MAGIC." It doesnt matter how great the Axe Fx is, your making a totally unfair opinion about the POD HD, it wasnt worthy of being sent back to the company or thrown down a sewer or w/e.

You crossed the line, this calls for a shootout. I consider myself (under no arrogant grounds) to be pretty good at the new POD HD series. Gimme your best AXE tone (however it has to use one of the POD HD amps) and ill match it. Sounds fair? You want a shootout, ill give you one. Its on, and you can get your little AXE FX fanboys on it too, your gonna need it cause you probably dont know how to even use 10th of its full potential.

Anyways, dont mean to hate on the AXE, its great, its just obnoxious guys like you.

THE CHALLENGE IS ON?

"I told them if they can't  get it back to the distributor then they can throw it in the sewer and  try to write it off somehow - since in North America - scams are the  bread and butter of the continent." That part got to me, btw, ugh.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Nick_Mattocks on 2010-11-26 02:10:56

Seriously fellas, I can't believe this thread has gone so far and so badly off the original topic started by Karl who was simply saying he'd sold HIS Axe FX because HE was able to get what HE wanted out of the HD500.  HE was simply reporting HIS experiences anecdotally and HE has maintained all the way through this thread that HE thinks the Axe FX is still a great piece of kit.  Quite how we have ended up with a situation where we have descended into petty name calling and 'my dad's bigger than yours and he can kick his a**' type jibes is beyond reasonable comprehension.  I have kept out of this one for a while because to me this thread is going nowhere and has passed it's useful 'sell-by date' by a good margin.

Farbeyond: you are entitled to your opinions and you seem to have provoked plenty of reaction to them, but for me I understood your points loud and clear from several pages ago, so in common with most people who have watched and participated in this thread, I think we get that you don't like the HD500.  You've made your decision to return your HD500 because it didn't deliver what you wanted from it,  Fair enough. You've done exactly what I would have done if I wasn't satisfied with it - except perhaps I wouldn't have wasted so much time on this forum after the event.  Like most people I would have gone and bought something else - Axe FX or whatever, been happy with my decisions and moved on.  Life's too short.  That's all you need to do too IMO.

Flame wars are just plain stupid in my humble opinion and do nothing to promote good music, which, is presumably why we all bother to buy decent equipment in the first place.  Quite what most of the stuff I've seen in this thread lately has to do with music I haven't got a clue and all I can see happening here is that this thread which was started in good spirit, will get closed by the moderators.

I have never owned an Axe FX - primarily because of the cost, so I only have the word of those that have had an Axe FX to go on and in Karl's case in particular because he does have a very good ear for tone, I trust what he says, and he says it's a good piece of kit.  I was surprised that he sold it as I said in the very first reply to this thread back on page 1, but that decision on his part supported what I already knew in that the HD500 is a more than decent sounding piece of equipment and that there is always room for decent equipment in anyone's arsenal.

In my opinion, the best course of action here is not to rise to any further baiting or to respond to any further inflamatory posts and just move on with whatever makes each of us happy.  when I see threads like this one which were started with great intent and integrity descend into what this one has become I have to say that I find it very disappointing.

I'll shut up now

Nick

EDIT:

PS - I am not pointing this reply specifically at the person I responded to - that was just the last post in the thread and it was easier to just click Reply.  It was intended as a response to the thread in general.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by timothybaugh on 2010-11-26 02:56:48

This is like two bald men fighting over a comb. I really can't see the point of it. To quote the late, great Frank Zappa Shut up 'n play yer guitar ....



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Zaserty on 2010-11-26 04:21:24

I dont own the unit yet, I was just checking the forums for some insight...beyond anything else I find sad that someone would need to make a point so much so that they need to still post over and over again in the forum of a manufacturer even after returning the product..pretty pathetic.

I wish I had that much time...dude, you made your point, move on, go see a movie or something



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2010-11-26 06:19:17

FarBeyond3 wrote:

On page one you posted clips and your thread title could have clearly been something different if those clips were all you were trying to post as a sample of the HD.

Oh for the love of pete...

You DO understand that the title of this post is a joke referring to the monsterous thread

Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3

Even John_Blistertip got the joke just a couple of posts down.  I thought it would be obvious.

In post #4, I state my reason for selling the Axe-Fx:

I've gone back to tube half stacks for the band.  Axe was complete
overkill in that regard.  Sounded great, but real tube amps sound
better.

And as far as the quote about "giving the axe a run for its money" goes, you took it out of context.

The AC30 on the HD is awesome.  Give the Axe a run for its money...at 1/4 of the price.

See?  That comment was about the AC30 model.  I certainly acknowledge that Axe does many things really, really well.  I'm just saying THIS unit does some good things too.

What in the heck is going on with the text formatting???  LOL!



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by phil_m on 2010-11-26 06:53:47

...and then they laughed when you left the store.  Trust me, I've worked in retail before.  They may have pretended to believe you simply because you're a customer, and they were hoping to sell you something else.  But, seriously, you need to get over your little big-headed self.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Dime13 on 2010-11-26 08:01:37

beteasta351 wrote:

Hate to do this, but man you suck, farbeyond. OK you AXE FX fanboy, you know what you remind me of? You remind me of one of those little kids who stands by their word at all costs even if theyre wrong. You could tell them that airplanes fly because of their wings, theyd be like no, they fly because of magic, and youd keep trying to enlighten them but they get more and more unresponsive. "BLAH BLAH BLAH, ITS MAGIC."

No more like an F-16 is higher performance in the air than a commercial passenger jet.   And so I guess in your case you refuse to give up your vote for the passenger plane as more high performance.  Thats what I call a belief in magic and in fairy tales.

 this calls for a shootout. I consider myself (under no arrogant grounds) to be pretty good at the new POD HD series. Gimme your best AXE tone (however it has to use one of the POD HD amps) and ill match it. Sounds fair? You want a shootout, ill give you one. Its on, and you can get your little AXE FX fanboys on it too, your gonna need it cause you probably dont know how to even use 10th of its full potential.

Do not assume what I know or don't know about audio or prgorramming for audio.   BUDDY, I know how to program an Evnetide H8000 so I would hang it up right there.  

And btw, I do not own an axe FX, i only tried it.  And knew right there the difference was light years.  And even if I did own one, I would never even consider participating in any of your challenges.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by amgamg on 2010-11-26 08:03:13

th_Sigmund_Freud.jpgFar Beyond...please...come in off the ledge...theres no need for all this!



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by amgamg on 2010-11-26 08:04:33

angry-mob2.jpgJUMP...JUMP...JUMP!!!!



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Dime13 on 2010-11-26 08:05:44

timothybaugh wrote:

This is like two bald men fighting over a comb. I really can't see the point of it.


I do not understand how that description portrays anything similar to this.  Care to explain what you mean and how it is like 2 bald men fighting over a comb?  How do you know its not a bald man fighting a man with a full head of hair over the comb?  So i simply fail to grasp your point.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by timothybaugh on 2010-11-26 08:26:44

Two men fighting over a comb refers to a pointless argument over nothing that gets out of hand - that's what you're instigating here. I don't have time for this as I have a date with a beautiful woman and a cold beer ....



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by L6EXPERT on 2010-11-26 08:36:43

Experts should concentrate on helping others else then making jokes with topics and confusing other customers.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by amgamg on 2010-11-26 08:40:35

reinforcements.jpgOh No..Reinforcements



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by joaokorb on 2010-11-26 10:41:27

Someone should close or even delete this topic. The whole thing is just utter nonsene. It shouldn have been opened in 1st place in my opinion.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by amgamg on 2010-11-26 10:49:51

redoubtable.jpgCalvary....Explodes on to the scene!



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by L6EXPERT on 2010-11-26 10:50:58

AND WHAT DO YA KNOW ABOUT STUFF DIRT BAG ?

MORON !!!!!!!



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by amgamg on 2010-11-26 10:56:38

th_PeeWeeHerman-1.jpgI know what I am...but what are you?????



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Bersaghi on 2010-11-26 11:07:18

BluesBrazil wrote:

Someone should close or even delete this topic. The whole thing is just utter nonsene. It shouldn have been opened in 1st place in my opinion.

Two things, in my opinion. First, a single guy messed up this thread ... and then, many played his game. ... but, I agree, result was not really useful. Second, everybody should open any thread they think appropriated. But I would agree, we should keep high level discussion and not hurt people because they have a different opinion.

Cheers.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by joaokorb on 2010-11-26 11:08:43

+1 Emerson, bom ver os colegas compatriotas por aqui! Abraço do Brasil!



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Dbourget on 2010-11-26 13:38:27

If you guys would just stop feeding these fish, I'm sure they'll go back to where they came from.

I guess it's time for Merry Christmas to all now!

Dan



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by ozbadman on 2010-11-26 13:42:06

Slightly back on topic:

Has anyone tried using their HD500 as a footcontroller for the AXE? I have both, but my AXE is in a different country at the moment but it seems like the HD500 would also make an OK footcontroller for the AXE (I'm not going to cough up a gazillion $ for the MFC101). Has anyone tried this and how successful was the result?

Thanks,

David.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2010-11-27 06:08:51

BluesBrazil wrote:

Someone should close or even delete this topic. The whole thing is just utter nonsene. It shouldn have been opened in 1st place in my opinion.

It started off as a very good natured joke and sharing a nice audio clip.  Explain why it shouldn't have been started in the first place?



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Dime13 on 2010-11-27 08:38:05

Karl_Houseknecht wrote:

It started off as a very good natured joke and sharing a nice audio clip.  Explain why it shouldn't have been started in the first place?


Actually, L6expert already did explain this to you when he clearly stated the following just above


" Experts should concentrate on helping others else then making jokes with topics and confusing other customers."


Does he appear to be a happy customer with your post? I didn't think so.  And possibly even more unhappy if it previously lead him to buy the HD.   I'm sorry to have had to be the one to bring him the bitter and hideous truth.  Please be advised that you need to take a strong look at the ethics of your misleading posts from now on.


And by the way, the HD series is NOT HD by any sense of whatever those two letters could possibly exemplify.  This was the point of my challenges - which remain unchallenged.  Because this new HD thing is false advertising and even my buddy at the music store grants this.  And I can even hear it was no more HD nor more Hi-Fi, or whatever you guys want to call it - no more of that characteristic than my Pod Farm 2 Plug-in in my DAW.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by fester2000 on 2010-11-27 09:33:56

FarBeyond3 wrote:

Karl_Houseknecht wrote:

It started off as a very good natured joke and sharing a nice audio clip.  Explain why it shouldn't have been started in the first place?


Actually, L6expert already did explain this to you when he clearly stated the following just above


" Experts should concentrate on helping others else then making jokes with topics and confusing other customers."


Does he appear to be a happy customer with your post? I didn't think so.  And possibly even more unhappy if it previously lead him to buy the HD.   I'm sorry to have had to be the one to bring him the bitter and hideous truth.  Please be advised that you need to take a strong look at the ethics of your misleading posts from now on.


And by the way, the HD series is NOT HD by any sense of whatever those two letters could possibly exemplify.  This was the point of my challenges - which remain unchallenged.  Because this new HD thing is false advertising and even my buddy at the music store grants this.  And I can even hear it was no more HD nor more Hi-Fi, or whatever you guys want to call it - no more of that characteristic than my Pod Farm 2 Plug-in in my DAW.

Congrats, you win.  Feel better?

Fester2k



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by wardick on 2010-11-27 09:39:23

This thread made me give up music and sell all my gear.     Just kidding.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by timowens on 2010-11-27 10:37:28

LOL, that's a good one



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by amgamg on 2010-11-27 11:21:14

a-crying-baby.jpg"The Truth"



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Nick_Mattocks on 2010-11-27 11:21:24

FarBeyond3 wrote:

Karl_Houseknecht wrote:

It started off as a very good natured joke and sharing a nice audio clip.  Explain why it shouldn't have been started in the first place?


Actually, L6expert already did explain this to you when he clearly stated the following just above


" Experts should concentrate on helping others else then making jokes with topics and confusing other customers."


Does he appear to be a happy customer with your post? I didn't think so.  And possibly even more unhappy if it previously lead him to buy the HD.   I'm sorry to have had to be the one to bring him the bitter and hideous truth.  Please be advised that you need to take a strong look at the ethics of your misleading posts from now on.


And by the way, the HD series is NOT HD by any sense of whatever those two letters could possibly exemplify.  This was the point of my challenges - which remain unchallenged.  Because this new HD thing is false advertising and even my buddy at the music store grants this.  And I can even hear it was no more HD nor more Hi-Fi, or whatever you guys want to call it - no more of that characteristic than my Pod Farm 2 Plug-in in my DAW.

To be clear L6 Experts are actually normal Line 6 customers who don't work for Line 6, don't get paid by Line and actually participate here completely of their own free will.  L6 Experts were awarded the L6 Expert tag by Line 6 for our efforts in trying to help users of Line 6 equipment in general for quite a few years through this and previous forums.  L6 Experts are entitled to, and do, hold their own views and opinions on matters pertaining to Line 6 or anything else, and just like anyone else we can express those views and opinions on these forums.

Whether you or the person currently calling himself L6 Expert think that as L6 Experts we should all have a sense of humour bypass operation or not, it ain't gonna happen. A sense of humour is what oils the wheels of debate in many a contentious issue.  i suggest you try and lighten up a little and be a bit more tolerant of other people's views, opinions and efforts.  This is after all a community forum and it is open to anyone and everyone with very little censorship ever being necessary.

Any prospective purchase of any manufacturer's products is the ultimate decision maker as they hold the budget.  If considering a new piece of equipment to buy and to get a balanced impression of whether that piece of equipment is actually suiatble for my needs, it is my responsibility to fully research the product, customer feedback and reviews etc... and in that process I am inevitably going to come across a wide range of opinion and debate.  On that and perhaps getting some hands-on time with the prospective purchase, I would make my decision.

The bitter and hideous truth in reality is that the responsibility for making a purchase is fairly and squarely that of the person making the purchase.   As far as I can see no one - official L6 Expert or anyone else has made any misleading posts about any Line 6 products.  What has always been expressed about these products is an opinion and an unbiased one at that based on personal experience and impressions.

No-one here is your enemy and no-one here has any wish to be your enemy.

You are free to judge just like anyone else, whether or not you agree with someone's opinion or not.  It's clear that in many instances you have your own strong opinions which we have heard repeatedly.

I have had an HD500 for some time now.  I also own a POD XT Live, a POD X3 Live and a POD 2.0 all of which I still like for various reasons, but to me the POD HD500 is definitely capable of much higher definition sounds than any of those previous PODs by a significant margin, so my opinion is that in lots of ways the HD range does most definitely represent a far higher definition approach.  I know you hold a different view point and that is your prerogative, but the fact is that I and many others don't agree with you on this - but I won't try and sway you from your view point because only you can make your mind up, and you are free to go elsewhere and buy something better for your needs if you wish or not if you don't.

Nick



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by timowens on 2010-11-27 13:07:18

nickmattocks wrote:

To be clear L6 Experts are actually normal Line 6 customers who don't work for Line 6, don't get paid by Line and actually participate here completely of their own free will.

Well, that can be interpreted a different way. If Line 6 sends you free stuff (POD HD, DT50, etc.) then they are in fact paying you to spend time on this forum providing technical support. I realized that if you count the number of hours you have invested and divide it by the cost of the equipment that they sent you then you probably only make about 33 cents an hour but that is beside the point. Also, if you signed an NDA or any other document in order to get this free stuff then you are bound by that document and in a way, you simply cannot be unbiased in what you say here on this forum or anywhere publicly for that matter. I don't subscribe to what 'LINE6EXPERT' is saying, in fact, I think most of the Experts are cool, but lets not cloud the truth either, technically speaking, you do work for Line 6, maybe more in the sense of a subcontractor but nonetheless, you do work for them. BTW, I'm not talking to or about you personally, you just provided a statement that I felt needed to be responded to.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by phil_m on 2010-11-27 13:22:14

Well, not all the people who have the "L6 Expert" tags have gotten stuff for beta testing yet.  I actually was not asked to participate until after the release of HD500, and I have not gotten any free gear.  I believe there are others who haven't yet either.  I also would say that participating in a beta test for a company is not the same as working for a company.  Companies giving samples of products out for reviews and testing is simply standard practice in the industry, and it's not just Line 6 that does it.

Line 6 may be sort of unique in the sense that they've tied it into their forums, but I think it's kind of cool.  It offers more accountability and I think it helps to get the customer more involved in the whole process.  Also, no one has ever given me any sort of quota or anything for answering questions or spending a certain amount of time on the forums.  Actually, if that were the case, I wouldn't do it.  I basically just do it because I enjoy it, and I genuinely want to help people out.

Also, I don't believe signing a NDA forbids anyone from being critical of a company.  It basically just forbids from releasing information prior to the release of a product or talking about stuff that could benefit a company's competition.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by ozbadman on 2010-11-27 13:41:25

Hi Tim,

Are you sure they get to keep the stuff that is sent to them for test? Are you sure they don't have to pay for it?

As far as I can tell, Line 6 doesn't give them anything at all for nothing. They get to test the stuff before we do, which is cool in it's own right, but I think it's pretty unfair to call them employees/subcontractors of Line 6 on any level. They have often expressed views here not supporting certain things about Line 6 products which as employees/subcontractors they wouldn't be able to do. I think it takes away from the essentially altruistic nature of what they are contributing to all of us and I believe the major benefit they derive from it is being part of the community, learning from each other, and the pleasuer of helping out others.

I know you weren't being negative about them, but credit where credit's due, I don't believe Line 6 gives them anything for nothing and even if they do/did, good luck to them.

My 2c, and thanks to Line 6 Experts, as well as everybody else in this community who helps out here on their own time.

David.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by timowens on 2010-11-27 13:48:25

Right on, but if someone did sign a contract with Line 6 before they would send them this free stuff, wouldn't you agree that they couldn't be 100% unbiased? And wouldn't you agree that at least some of the experts have invested all those hours on this forum providing Line 6 tech support while at least hoping that one day Line 6 would send them free stuff. Hey, I don't fault anyone, Line 6 has a good thing going, just look at how many tech support questions are answered by common users like yourself, can you imagine how much money they save on tech support? Also, I don't fault the guys who did get the free stuff, maybe you spent all that time providing tech support simply out of the goodness of your heart but I seriously doubt that is the case for most people here including myself and that in itself should show you that there is a motivation to speak only good things about Line 6 here on this forum, think about it. Whether I'm right or wrong, the stigma remains.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by phil_m on 2010-11-27 13:57:36

It's impossible for anyone to be unbiased about anything, so I don't even see why that matters.  We all like what we like, and dislike what we dislike.  Even the most dispassionate reviewer has biases.

I honestly never expected to be given anything free when I started.  I just enjoyed being able to talk about stuff I like with other people who like it.  You don't have to believe me, but that's the truth.  As far as speaking only good things, I just it's just my personality to be optimistic rather than pessimistic, and even if there are things I don't like, I simply don't dwell on them.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by timowens on 2010-11-27 13:58:40

Well, my comments are based on certain eye witness accounts. But you have to understand, I'm not slamming anyone, I just think that certain people take a certain position with regards to Line 6 equipment, whether out of contractual obligation or because they want to get in on the free gear plan. Either way, you need to decide for yourself if someone's claims or position can be considered 100% unbiased.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by timowens on 2010-11-27 14:04:23

It's not that I don't believe you, it's that you would be the minority with that attitude. I do beleive you, I have no reason not to. I didn't mean to open a big can of worms with my comments, I just think that there are in fact certain individuals who are motivated by a desire to aquire some free gear, and then there are some who are obligated by contract to watch what they say, so certainly there are some Experts who simply cannot be unbiased.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by amgamg on 2010-11-27 14:05:29

People can be free to think what they want. Still...somebody lays down hard earned bucks and cant get thier rig going. A Line6 Expert jumps in and saves the day. Even if they did side with Line6...whats the difference if they also side with the Line6 user in need. I remember several years back when I updated and added model packs to my XT...I wanted to shoot myself...It was the people ...some of who are now the "experts" that helped. It shouldnt matter even if they were biased...after all...in the end each of us has to really be the one who decides whats best to use to make our music. 



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by mr_slugworth on 2010-11-27 14:09:57

To me it sounds like you think that Line 6 is looking for shills and fanboys to be their beta testers.  If so, that could not be further from the truth.  I'm a beta tester, and I'm pretty damn critical.  In fact, my criticisms seemed to have a lot to do with why I became a beta tester.  If they were looking for shills and fanboys, they wouldn't have asked me.  Bottom line.  And that goes for a lot of (if not all) of the other beta testers.

Nobody from Line 6 ever bribed anyone or even dangled any carrots to get people to help others on this message board.  However, there are enough people who love their products and enjoy doing it to make it happen, and Line 6 has set up an online environment that is mostly conducive to that.  It happened organically, and it's a pretty cool thing.  If I recommend a Line 6 product to someone, one of the big selling points is that with the right approach, you'll have other users literally falling over themselves to help you out.

For the people with criticism about a Line 6 product, discuss it here constructively and submit well thought out feature requests,  History repeats itself, so there's a good chance a well-formed idea could become a feature addition or fix in an update.  It has happened many times before, and it will happen again and again.  That's the kind of company Line 6 is.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by silverhead on 2010-11-27 14:11:55

timowens wrote:

.......... Whether I'm right or wrong, the stigma remains.

And that's the hardest part for me, personally. I know you're wrong - I don't give so much of my time, and never have, in order to get some potential future consideration from Line 6. I was doing this for a long time before I was invited to participate in a beta test. Yes - I did sign an NDA. As was mentioned earlier that simply restricted my ability to communicate certain knowledge publicly. It was in no way tied to anything else - not comments or opinions I might hold/express, not time spent in support forums, not any expectation that I might keep the equipment - not anything except my willingness to help Line 6 test their products pre-release so that the full release would be an improved product. And it was. This is common industry practice.

I still have the beta HD400 - and I expect I will be asked to participate in testing future software updates for this unit before they are released publicly. I will do so happily, and the resulting public release will be less buggy because of our combined efforts (not bug free - nothing is). And I will return the device to Line 6 whenever they ask for it - that too is in the NDA I signed.

So, while cynics may believe I have ulterior motives - I don't. I do this because I enjoy it, despite the occasional darts and barbs. And yet..... the stigma remains.

And feel free to dissect anything I've said here to throw more darts............



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2010-11-27 14:38:13

L6EXPERT wrote:

Experts should concentrate on helping others else then making jokes with topics and confusing other customers.

I started off this thread by making a dual tone patch, provided the patch file as an example, and made a sample clip.  Pretty helpful, eh?  The thread title was a humorous approach to getting attention.  Boy, that worked well, didn't it?

You're absolutely right.  When we become L6Experts, we should abstain from humor, sex, playing guitar, and anything else that makes us human.  In addition we should bend over and take the rogering given to us by forum trolls whenever they ask us to, sans lube.

I'm really not sure what it is that you want.  To tell you you're right about everything?  I can do that.  To tell you how intellectually superior you are?  I can do that too, pretty honestly.  To tell you to buy someone else's gear?  I can and have done that too.  Dude, if you're jealous of the Expert tag, as you seem to be, you can have mine.  I'm pretty freakin fed up with it.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by ozbadman on 2010-11-27 16:18:17

timowens wrote:

Well, my comments are based on certain eye witness accounts. But you have to understand, I'm not slamming anyone, I just think that certain people take a certain position with regards to Line 6 equipment, whether out of contractual obligation or because they want to get in on the free gear plan. Either way, you need to decide for yourself if someone's claims or position can be considered 100% unbiased.

I realise you're not slamming anyone, but I do think you're making this into an issue and people will take that as an opportunity to grind their personal axes (no, not guitars ). For me, I wouldn't care if the L6 experts, or anybody else on this forum got paid or not. They are available 24/7 for soltuions to problems, and mostly they do it just out of interest and to help out. Sure, you can focus on the "Oh, but maybe they're only doing it in the hope they may get frree stuff eventually", but  I think by far the most important thing is whether or not that's true, it's a minor point. The major point is they do it, and it's helped me and others out a lot, and that's what we should be focused on.

Peace and again, thanks to all contributors,

David.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by ozbadman on 2010-11-27 16:20:48

You're absolutely right.  When we become L6Experts, we should abstain from humor, sex, playing guitar, and anything else that makes us human.  In addition we should bend over and take the rogering given to us by forum trolls whenever they ask us to, sans lube.


Oh come on. A bit of humanity. They should at least give you lube man!!!!



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by timowens on 2010-11-27 16:20:49

mr_slugworth wrote:

To me it sounds like you think that Line 6 is looking for shills and fanboys to be their beta testers.  If so, that could not be further from the truth.  I'm a beta tester, and I'm pretty damn critical.  In fact, my criticisms seemed to have a lot to do with why I became a beta tester.  If they were looking for shills and fanboys, they wouldn't have asked me.  Bottom line.  And that goes for a lot of (if not all) of the other beta testers.

Nobody from Line 6 ever bribed anyone or even dangled any carrots to get people to help others on this message board.  However, there are enough people who love their products and enjoy doing it to make it happen, and Line 6 has set up an online environment that is mostly conducive to that.  It happened organically, and it's a pretty cool thing.  If I recommend a Line 6 product to someone, one of the big selling points is that with the right approach, you'll have other users literally falling over themselves to help you out.

For the people with criticism about a Line 6 product, discuss it here constructively and submit well thought out feature requests,  History repeats itself, so there's a good chance a well-formed idea could become a feature addition or fix in an update.  It has happened many times before, and it will happen again and again.  That's the kind of company Line 6 is.

Let me repeat myself, "I think most of the Experts are cool". But the point I'm trying to make is that there is a reason for all the fanboy remarks and all the attacks against Experts, right or wrong, there is a reason for this and that is what I am pointing out. Can you honestly say that there aren't at least a few point mongers here that will reply to any technical question to try and earn some points, has there been some bad advice given because of this? What if I said that there are way too many bugs with the HD already (at least 10 confirmed), would you take offence because you should have caught the bugs before the product was released because you are a beta tester? I hope not because I don’t blame you, but can’t you see the problem here?



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by ozbadman on 2010-11-27 16:26:10

timowens wrote:

Let me repeat myself, "I think most of the Experts are cool". But the point I'm trying to make is that there is a reason for all the fanboy remarks and all the attacks against Experts, right or wrong, there is a reason for this and that is what I am pointing out.

Actually, what I've mostly seen is a minority of people being upset and wanting to start fights rather than resolve issues. People, including Line 6 experts have been defending themselves. I bought a Boss GT-8. Didn't like it. Sold it. Bought a Line 6 XT. I didn't then go on the Boss forum and slam GT-8 lovers. It just wasn't the product for me. I sold it, and moved on. People have been taking out their frustrations here, rather than taking it back and moving on with their lives. I happen to like the HD500. It's problems have minimal impact on me. If I didn't, I'd get my money back and buy something else.

And for the record, I think you're being entirely reasonable in your comments, I just don't agree with all of them.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by timowens on 2010-11-27 18:58:51

phil_m wrote:

It's impossible for anyone to be unbiased about anything, so I don't even see why that matters...

Here is why it matters, if you go to the Fractal forum or the Digitech forum or whatever forum and you see someone being a bit over defensive of that particular brand you might not think too much of it, hey that guy is just another nut, whatever. But here, there is always that lingering thought whenever someone gets overly defensive about Line 6, they must be on the payroll, or they must be trying to earn their 'Expert' title. I think most of the Experts understand this, at least the ones that have been here a few years and have been dealing with it all along. The only thing new is the Expert label, this situation has existed since before I ever joined the old forum back when the X3 was released. I'm certainly not defending the two knuckleheads that caused all the arguments in this thread, I'm just saying why these things are to be expected, that's all. Again, I have absolutely nothing against you so I’m not talking to you or about you, I’m just sharing my point of view, as bizarre as it may sound



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Brion_Kean on 2010-11-27 19:02:31

"Talking about Music is like Dancing about Architecture" Being an unemployed architect as I am...

For my (limited) contribution to this trainwreck of a thread I'd like to say "sorry" for being harsh!

And to reiterate the word "aplomb" for no apparent reason.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by timowens on 2010-11-27 19:06:44

ozbadman wrote:


I realise you're not slamming anyone, but I do think you're making this into an issue and people will take that as an opportunity to grind their personal axes (no, not guitars )....

LOL, I love a good pun!



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by timowens on 2010-11-27 19:11:43

See, all is not lost, aside from all the entertaining post in this thread I've learned a new word "aplomb".

Thank you, a little humor like that can turn any thread around



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2010-11-27 19:48:17

timowens wrote:

What if I said that there are way too many bugs with the HD already (at least 10 confirmed), would you take offence because you should have caught the bugs before the product was released because you are a beta tester? I hope not because I don’t blame you, but can’t you see the problem here?

Well, good.  Because you should have seen all the ones we DID catch.   I'm curious, though.  Out of those 10, are there any show stoppers?  I really haven't been keeping track.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by timowens on 2010-11-27 19:55:53

Karl_Houseknecht wrote:

timowens wrote:

What if I said that there are way too many bugs with the HD already (at least 10 confirmed), would you take offence because you should have caught the bugs before the product was released because you are a beta tester? I hope not because I don’t blame you, but can’t you see the problem here?

Well, good.  Because you should have seen all the ones we DID catch.   I'm curious, though.  Out of those 10, are there any show stoppers?  I really haven't been keeping track.

Well that's a matter of interpretation I guess. One is definitely a show stopper, maybe another is a show stopper to some, but all in all no, most are not. I have been keeping track, I could list them, but only if you list the ones you guys did find and fix before the unit was released



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by wardick on 2010-11-27 20:23:41

The only thing missing from this thread in order to finalize it is a post from Heavy Chevy. 



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by timowens on 2010-11-27 20:33:51

I don't know why that is so funny but it is. If this thread was a technical question, you sir should get all the points:



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Nick_Mattocks on 2010-11-28 03:44:30

Tim

By what I'm about to say, I mean no disrespect to you, but there is some need for clarification here I think to dispel any myths of 'free' equipment being given out and so that there's no clouding of the truth as you put it.

Line 6 sent me a DT50 and an HD500 as part of the testing program.  They don't belong to me as far as I'm aware.  They are still the property of the company as far as I'm aware.  I've never been advised differently on that.  To be able to take part in the testing programmes, any tester has to be sent the equipment to test.   They could ask me to return the equipment at any time as far as I'm aware.   Of course I have to use the equipment in order to test it.  Testing is a very intensive process and speaking for myself, since the end of June this year, I have spent between 20 and 25 hours per week doing just that.  If in time the equipment I have been sent to test does become mine, be in no doubt that I earned it.  I personally have never received anything free from Line 6.

That is my specific situation and the exact truth of the matter, and until I'm told differently by Line 6 or not that I can keep the equipment, sell it or do whatever I want with it, it isn't actually mine,  so let's lay the 'free equipment' thing to rest right there please.

I can't speak for the other testers, but I believe their situation is exactly the same as mine.  Believe me no-one is getting any kind of free ride.  Being asked to be tester was an honour for me and it has been very hard work but it was an enjoyable experience and one I would go through again if asked.

Technically or otherwise I don't work for Line 6 or have any contract of employment with them.  My participation in test programmes or on the forums as an ordinary user who happens to have been given a Line 6 Expert tag is voluntary and nothing else.  There is nothing hidden, nor any ambiguity here.  I actually work for myself as a self-employed IT Management Consultant for small and medium sized businesses here in the north west UK and that's how I earn my living.  Before that I was a lecturer and head of department for Computing and Maths at a local tertiary college here in the UK.

To me the Line 6 Expert idea put forward by Line 6 was and remains a very good idea.  Its primary purpose is to try and offer pretty consistent and reliable user to user help and support based on real-life experiences and for the greater part both we L6 Experts and a good few other users do this purely out of good will and perhaps a sense of 'paying it forward'.  Most of the time I believe we get it right too.  Had I had the sort of help that's available here when I first started out playing guitar in the early 1970's I would have been totally stoked, but back then all we had to fall back on was our local guitar playing pals for support and learning.  I am still learning and I'm not too proud to say that either; I think we all are

I think it's inevitable that people will be distrustful of any large company, their motives and anyone that's associated with them, because unfortunately it seems to be human nature to be distrustful.  I can't do anything about that, except to be as open and honest as I can about my personal circumstances.  Please understand that I don't actually have to justify myself here either to anyone - none of us do, so my comments here are intended and offered voluntarily based on my specific circumstances and experiences in an effort to put an end to the 'mystery and myth' that seems to be being built up around both L6 Expert and Beta Tester status.

I won't be commenting further on this as there's nothing more to say.

Regards

Nick



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by jdalf59 on 2010-11-28 04:16:57

Hey Karl, hope you had a fine Thanksgiving weekend.

I got the humor in your original post, I was hoping someone would start a thread with that title since we had that massive opposite one running in the Lounge. I figured someone would have a hissy

Wise Solomon said: Don't answer a fool according to his folly lest you become like him.

Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he become wise in his own eyes

Enjoy your music in your Services today with great thanksgiving!



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by amgamg on 2010-11-28 05:00:24

Keeping up with this is interesting to say the least. So....Anyone who likes the HD500 is suspect of kissing LIne6 butt? Line 6 Experts are even more suspect for answering questions after gaining better knowledge from using on thier own gear over the years and having tested the product for free? Posters from other websites are free to ream Line6...Line 6 Experts..and Line 6 enthusiast cause Line 6 used people from everyday life to Beta Test the gear? Getting back to the Experts...Am I to believe that for points that share no monetary value...and  a title that points out who might help you with Line 6 questions...and some gear that might have to be returned anyway...there's a conspiracy going on? Perhaps its dangerous to purchase and use a HD 500? Most of all...Does any of this really matter to anyone when considering the purchase of the HD500? If it does why? I'd also like to advise to those who may be interested. I was once paid 2 dollars at the mall to taste test fruit flavored Halls Drops. Bareware...I may be in the tank for Halls!



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by timowens on 2010-11-28 06:54:35

Nick, no worries, I don’t think you are being disrespectful at all. But in closing, you only verify my statements, how other people interpret these facts is up to them. Personally, I have no problem with it, I was just trying to point out that some people do and maybe that is why they act the way they do.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Nick_Mattocks on 2010-11-28 07:49:24

Tim

I realise you were playing 'Devil's Advocate' with a lot of what you've said, so I don't take anything you were trying to point out about other people's misguided or otherwise, imagined or otherwise perceptions personally.  There will always be people out there who won't believe the truth.  That's their problem I'm afraid.

I think the only thing I verified is the plain and honest truth TBH, but you are right, some people will still choose to interpret anything any of us say in the way they want to intrpret it, and yes you are right that these same people will act and respond in a certain way regardless of the truth

The points thing you mentioned earlier - yes, I can see why certain people might view active users as being just interested in points - and as an active member on these forums people might mistakenly think that's my motivation I guess.  Points are a user's way of expressing appreciation or thanks and it's nice to know that what you've said when trying to help someone is appreciated, but getting a big points score is definitely not my motivation for participation, and I'm pretty sure that's the same for most other people.   I think if you poll the number of points that some L6 Experts have at the moment, and if you could see them, the number of points that some of the HD and DT50 beta testers have against their names (which you can't unfortunately) anyone would realise that the number of points you have bears little relation to the reasons any of us were asked to be one, the other or both.   I think Line6Miller pointed out the reasons he selected us to be L6 Experts elsewhere in another thread.   I never expected or asked for L6 Expert status, or to be considered as a beta tester or anything else for that matter.  I was quite surprised to be asked by Line 6 about both things to the point of semi-disbelief about the beta testing thing, and I was pleased to help out with no promises of anything for me being made or having to be made.  I bet that if you asked any of the other L6 Experts or testers, they'd truthfully tell you the exact same story.

People can take me at my word as they find me or they can believe I'm lying if that's what they feel they want to do.  I really don't care.  I try to take everyone as I find them and assume that everyone is genuine until I perhaps find out that they are not.  There are always people out there willing to believe the worst in others for whatever reason, but mostly I find it's because fiction is often more interesting than the truth as well as in some cases people applying their own standards to others.

There is this thing called integrity.  I have integrity as anyone who knows me personally will tell you and I could tell you about hundreds of instances in my life where I could have benefitted personally from certain situations had I wanted to, but which I have walked away from because of that same integrity.  When I don't believe something is morally right, legal and proper, I don't get involved.  Simple.  Perhaps the world would be a better place if a few more people examined their own integrity eh? For what it's worth I have never actually met any of my co L6 Experts in person or my co-beta testers for that matter, but from what I do know of all of them they are all solid and well meaning individuals with a large skill set between them that they are willing to share.  These guys, to the absolute best of my knowledge also have great integrity too as well as being knowledgeable, intuitive, calm and extremely helpful.

Anyhow - nothing personal when I may have mentioned 'you' above.  It's a figurative 'you' rather than being specifically aimed at you personally as I know you'll understand - but it needs to be said for all the reasons we're having this conversation in the first place.   You've been around here and over on the Boss GT Central forums as well as elsewhere for a long time and you've always talked a lot of sense and I respect that.

Now I really don't want to thrash this deceased horse any more.  It's getting tiring as well as going nowhere, so I'm just going to go about my normal stuff now.

Best regards

Nick



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by silverhead on 2010-11-28 08:13:32

You're right about that, TIm. As I said in a previous post that's the part that I find the hardest. If people want to mistrust us and believe that we're doing this for personal gain, they're certainly free to do so. And if they do, then they will equally mistrust statements like the one Nick just made, and the one I'm about to make. And it may simply give them more fuel for their belief, in the 'methinks thou dost protest too much' vein. Nothing we can do about that, but I do think it's fair for us to declare our motivations truthfully, whether or not it's perceived that way.

In that vein I think there's just one more thing that deserves mention. It relates to the 'free' equipment which I think is perceived by some as the gain/benefit for us.

I can confirm what Nick says, as least under the terms of my NDA. Line 6 owns the HD400 which I currently have in my possesion. I am obligated to return it whenever they ask for it back. So why do I still have it?

Well, I guess the cynical answer is that it's my payoff from Line 6. That's why I have spent so much time in this user forum from the beginning, that's why I'm such a points-hound, and Line 6 requires me through some hidden contractual arrangement to be a fanboy. I know none of this to be true but of course I can't prove it. Anyone is free to think this and hence mistrust anything I say. And if they're inclined that way then they will certainly mistrust my preceding statement that none of this is true. I can't do anything about that........ except perhaps offer a reasonable alternative interpretation.

I still have the equipment becasue Line 6 hasn't asked for it back (yet). Why? Well let's look at the history of Line 6 product development. Typically a product receives numerous software udpates through its lifecycle. So it seems reasonable to think that Line 6 anticipates releasing  software updates for the HD products. And, since we all now know that the HD series used a beta-test methodolgy, it seems reasonable to think that they might want to apply the same beta-test methodology to those updates. Now, my NDA prevents me from saying anything about whether or not that has happened, is happening, or will happen. But I don't think it's a stretch for an outside observer to imagine it (nor is it a violation of my NDA to point this out). And I think it's a much less cynical conclusion for an outside observer to reach. Perhaps the reason that I still have my equipment is that, in fact, the beta-test is ongoing. From my perspective it must be ongoing - Line 6 hasn't yet asked for me to return the HD400.

Hopefully this beta-test methodology results in an improved product when it hits the market for public consumption. I know it certainly improved the initial public release. If Line 6 asks me to participate in testing update releases I will happily do so. I already have the equipment and hopefully can help bring an improved product more quickly to the market, so that end-users who prefer not to be early adopters can have a more mature product sooner.

But of course everyone can make up their own mind. For me - I'll just continue answering questions and helping where I can (believe it or not).

Over and out...........



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by timowens on 2010-11-28 11:23:56

Nickmattocks and silverhead, very well said. I agree, that darn horse is dead already, so over and out

Oh, just one more thing, sorry for hijacking your thread Karl, but you must be used to it be now



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by timowens on 2010-11-28 11:26:58

amgamg wrote:

Keeping up with this is interesting to say the least. So....Anyone who likes the HD500 is suspect of kissing LIne6 butt? Line 6 Experts are even more suspect for answering questions after gaining better knowledge from using on thier own gear over the years and having tested the product for free? Posters from other websites are free to ream Line6...Line 6 Experts..and Line 6 enthusiast cause Line 6 used people from everyday life to Beta Test the gear? Getting back to the Experts...Am I to believe that for points that share no monetary value...and  a title that points out who might help you with Line 6 questions...and some gear that might have to be returned anyway...there's a conspiracy going on? Perhaps its dangerous to purchase and use a HD 500? Most of all...Does any of this really matter to anyone when considering the purchase of the HD500? If it does why? I'd also like to advise to those who may be interested. I was once paid 2 dollars at the mall to taste test fruit flavored Halls Drops. Bareware...I may be in the tank for Halls!

I must have missed something, who said all that?



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by amgamg on 2010-11-28 11:46:39

Simple... If you or anyone meant to say  or imply these things I found it very hard not to wonder about  the questions I pose.

I guess I just don't get it. To me its very simple. Points are for fun and sport....Beta testers and the gear they test are for the best possible result for the consumer....Line 6 Experts are there to help us....Anything negative that can be contrived about any of it doesn't add up for me. The reason IMO that people come here to take a wiz on Line 6 and its supporters is they are simply insane. That's the best I can come up with. Far be it from me to be  judge and jury...these are just  my impressions. Modern consumers are apparently nuts...Some not all..perhaps not you.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by timowens on 2010-11-28 11:57:25

amgamg wrote:

Simple... If you or anyone meant to say  or imply these things I found it very hard not to wonder about  the questions I pose.

I guess I just don't get it. To me its very simple. Points are for fun and sport....Beta testers and the gear they test are for the best possible result for the consumer....Line 6 Experts are there to help us....Anything negative that can be contrived about any of it doesn't add up for me. The reason IMO that people come here to take a wiz on Line 6 and its supporters is they are simply insane. That's the best I can come up with. Far be it from me to be  judge and jury...these are just  my impressions. Modern consumers are apparently nuts...Some not all..perhaps not you.

Right on, I just didn't want to be misunderstood.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by amgamg on 2010-11-28 12:08:35

KeepOnTruckin[1].jpgNo Fuss..No Muss



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by boynigel on 2010-11-28 16:27:08

being a new HD500 owner, the title of this thread caught my eye.  then i saw the number of replies and immediately knew it must have gotten ugly.  sure enough.  just my two cents-  i don't care as much about how it stands up to the axe fx as i do about how it stands up to the real amps.  so far i'm VERY pleased, and even excited.  understand that i'm somebody who has generally snubbed line 6, accusing them of being "toy makers".  and to an extent, they HAVE been.  in fairness, they've been NICE toys, but toys nonetheless.  but now i have to say i'm officially a line 6 convert.  i believe the HD series is a game changer.  it will be interesting to see what the competition comes up with in the HD's price catagory.  anyway, back to how the HD stands up to the real deal.  i a/b'd it with my '97 Mesa Tremoverb 212 combo.  i was able to get clean sounds that were more pleasing to my ears out of the HD than the Mesa.  you may think that's no big deal, but ask somebody who has one of the original tremoverbs and you'll hear them gush about the surprisingly killer cleans that this amp has.  i've slayed many a Fender clean with my tremoverb.

then it was on to the distortion.  this wasn't as easy, and i started to get disappointed because the results weren't as easy to come by as they were with the cleans.  i'd say i was able to get about 70% of the tremoverbs sound with the HD.  bummer.  BUT-  then i started playing around with the cabinet models.  when i pulled up the model of the 212 ported Dr.Z cab-  there it was.  BAM.  i easily had 95% of my tremoverb's sound coming out of a borrowed cheapo carvin full range acoustic amp (AG100).  and i'm talking a STRONG 95%.  mind you this is after about 10 minutes worth of tweaking.  can you ever get 100%?  maybe.  i liked what i heard so much, that i moved on to other things.  i bought a flextone 3 that i liked the cleans on but was never happy with the distorted sounds.  the HD is just SO much better.  i can actually feel the sag in some of the models.  great sounds across the board.  keeper.  period.

regarding HD500 vs. axe fx-  that's really not that important to me.  before i found out about the HD line, i was shopping the axe fx.  if i remember correctly, they're around $1800, then you still need to drop another $200 or more for a floor controller?!  two grand, or more in all.  all i'll say is this-  aside from online demos and an adrian belew concert, i have never heard the axe fx in person.  but i'd be very willing to bet that the axe fx, if it DOES sound better, doesn't sound $1500 better!



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by wardick on 2010-11-28 17:06:32

i have never heard the axe fx in person.  but i'd be very willing to bet that the axe fx, if it DOES sound better, doesn't sound $1500 better!


That statement cracks me up everytime I read it.      If I had a dollar for every time I read it I would probably have $1500.     I guess anyone that owned a $200 POD and went XT thought that it was $400 better, from XT to X3 was another $500 better and from X3 to HD was yet another $500 better.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Dime13 on 2010-11-28 18:55:58

boynigel wrote:

but i'd be very willing to bet that the axe fx, if it DOES sound better, doesn't sound $1500 better!



The difference between the HD and the Axe is far greater than $1500, its actually more along the lines of a difference of light years, its like comparing an outdated Atari 2600 console to a Playstation 3. 

2 Grand for an axe FX is actually a very shockingly under-priced proposition.  Its like owning an eventide H8000 with guitar amps!  

Its a super discounted price considering you are getting everything in a $6000 dollar Eventide FX unit (and even more FX blocks and more modulation capabilities than the H8000 such as the re-assignable arpegiattor as a step sequencer to any parameter in the unit instead of pitch if you wish... and not to mention the exact same super high end converters as used on the eventide H8000) - but with the addition of amps that sound like they are being recorded in a million dollar studio.  I remain surprised its only 2 grand.  This unit can easily have a monetary value of  8 to 10 grand.  But worth far more in my opinion.

And you might want to do a search on some of the Pepsi style blindfolded taste challenges that were conducted with the Axe FX in million dollar studios - given to the worlds most top end recording engineers. 



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by johnnypig on 2010-11-28 19:43:02

Inflated values of objects based on imaginary criteria steeped in emotionally skewed perspectives are a cruel strain on the minds of your readers.

Since you're making the statement, please go further and find that Fractal is actually losing $6000 - $8000 per sale, as Line 6 is losing a mere $1000 - $1500 per.

But really I'm just playing. Pleez doesn't mad!

We're just talking hardware here. Fractal's hardware would cost much, much less if they had Line 6's manufacturing partners, distribution and retailer presales, which are likely astronomical. Since it's economies of scale and all that.

What they're worth in IP... I'd license either for $30k - $60k a pop. Subjective opinions of quality aside, both are really freaking awesome tech.

My opinion is biased with owning an hd500 and being too poor for an axe-fx... Were I less financially restricted I'd have both of em and an Eventide DSP9trillion plus a room full of amps and guitars and mics and a goon of an assistant to move the mics so my ears don't bleed.

Thanks Line 6 for delivering it in a box with stomp switches and a controller pedal.

Happy day!

-robo

p.s. gimme the amp master volume!

p.p.s. you all know who the real winner in all this stupidity is? Analog Devices that's who. They get to sell a Tiger-Sharc or a Sharc either way.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by ozbadman on 2010-11-28 21:16:18

FarBeyond3 wrote:

boynigel wrote:

but i'd be very willing to bet that the axe fx, if it DOES sound better, doesn't sound $1500 better!



The difference between the HD and the Axe is far greater than $1500, its actually more along the lines of a difference of light years, its like comparing an outdated Atari 2600 console to a Playstation 3. 

2 Grand for an axe FX is actually a very shockingly under-priced proposition.  Its like owning an eventide H8000 with guitar amps!  

 

Well, I have both, and I'm glad I didn't pay more than $2000 for the AXE. But, if you want to buy it from me for $6000, it's all yours. I'll even throw in a discount and get it to you for $5000.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by boynigel on 2010-11-28 21:22:45

wardick wrote:

i have never heard the axe fx in person.  but i'd be very willing to bet that the axe fx, if it DOES sound better, doesn't sound $1500 better!

th


That statement cracks me up everytime I read it.      If I had a dollar for every time I read it I would probably have $1500.     I guess anyone that owned a $200 POD and went XT thought that it was $400 better, from XT to X3 was another $500 better and from X3 to HD was yet another $500 better.

sounds like some people, maybe out of embarassment, are getting a bit defensive and trying to justify the fact that they may have paid too much for a certain product.  what better way to validate their choice of purchase than to bash some other product.  if you had a dollar every time you heard that, then there just might be something to it.  especially given that the HD has only been around for a little while as of this writing.  but we're all rookies and couldn't possibly know what YOU know, right?  adrian belew is my favorite guitarist, but i can tell you one thing- i didn't walk out his show lusting for the tones he was getting out of his axe fx (nor did i think they were i bad).  in terms of tone, i think these are in the same league given what i've heard.   i will NOT dispute that the axe fx has deeper editing though.  you can sit there and tweak for hours, chasing the dragon.  i'll be playing.  i'll leave you with one more that you can say you've heard a million times- tone is in your hands!



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by johnnypig on 2010-11-28 21:27:13

I honestly don't believe that Axe could be cheaper. It does have an awesome DSP and ad/da, plus tons of I/O and some awesome programming.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by geriatric on 2010-11-29 00:48:13

I consider myself extremely blessed to live in a country where I can earn a living that allows me to buy and have the privilege of using gear such as the HD500 or an Axe-Fx.  I don't take it for granted.  Those of us who can do this can get precious over the  differences in tone between these two great products. But be grateful you've got one or the other (maybe both in some cases).  I can only afford the 500 but I can make satisfying music with it. If those of us who love playing music make our preferences a cause for flaming one another, pity help the world with its greater problems.  There are people on the streets of our cities tonight who are homeless and desperate in the midst of the misery of there lives (whatever has caused that) and we're flaming one another over tone?  I'm in my 60's and have gotten tremendous help from these forums over the years and I'm deeply appreciative of all the guys who give their knowledge and help freely.  Thanks guys.  Sometimes my tone sucks, not because the device is the problem ... I'm the problem ... but I'm learning.  This thread has probably seen its useby date expired and maybe we're flogging a dead horse.  I think this thread has probably gone far beyond what Karl intended and any value in repeating the arguments ad nauseum has disappeared.

Pete



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by amgamg on 2010-11-29 03:38:45

custom_1247691401380_trumphair.jpgIf I had one penny for every time some Axe fan came to Line 6 to yelp about anything worthless I'd own Boss..Zoom...Digitech...Korg...and Fractle...Sheesh!



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by amgamg on 2010-11-29 03:41:22

untitled1.bmpBilly ..theres a rabid Axe/FX fan over at the Line 6 website..need ya to get over there right away!



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by amgamg on 2010-11-29 03:43:34

1119255093_8359969001_AandE-The-Exterminators-Billys-Favorite-Injury-SF.jpgThat vermin has got to be the worst to get rid of....once it starts it never stops...I'll get him..I'm on my way!



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by leesguitar on 2010-11-29 03:45:26

+1n on that.

I bought an HD500 and took it back! Two reasons. Some of the amps (especially the higher gain ones) Sound muffled, like there is a blanket over the speakers and the eq on the unit is nowhere near good enough to sort them out. The amp mpdel eq's are the same as the ones on the origional amps. Lets face it they were pretty useless! The parametric on the HD isnt good enough to make up for it. This meant that they lacked some of the "bite" i like to cut through a mix in a live situation. How about being able to replace the tone stack on the amps with a custom one that works?

I could have lived with that and just used a a couple of models however. the thing that killed it for me was the insane amount of poweramp sag that has been moddled. You dont always turn a tube amp up all the way. You would blow the windows out in most venues with a 100watt head! So some way of controlling that sag would have saved the day for me.

If these two issues are sorted out I will be straight to the guitar shop to buy another HD!



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2010-11-29 05:52:59

leesguitar wrote:

The amp mpdel eq's are the same as the ones on the origional amps. Lets face it they were pretty useless! The parametric on the HD isnt good enough to make up for it. This meant that they lacked some of the "bite" i like to cut through a mix in a live situation. How about being able to replace the tone stack on the amps with a custom one that works?

Respectfully, I disagree here.  The tone stacks on the HD are not the same as the original amps, nor are they the same as they were in the X series.  Far more tone sculpting ability than they've ever had, and that was done on purpose so that you'd be able to dial in the tone using nothing more than just the amp model.  Something I can say was not possible for me on the X series, but that I can achieve easily on the HD.

You talked about having a "blanket" over the cab and needing to cut through...not sure how loud you're playing but at gig volume I still have to dial back the high end or it can get piercing.  It all has to do with cab and mic choice.

I agree about needing a more robust EQ option.  I don't like many of the offerings, but there are some very useful ones like the 4 band shift EQ.  You just need to really experiment with it and listen because without a visualization graph, it's not obvious what that or any of the other EQ models are doing.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Dime13 on 2010-11-29 15:58:23

amgamg wrote:

1119255093_8359969001_AandE-The-Exterminators-Billys-Favorite-Injury-SF.jpgThat vermin has got to be the worst to get rid of....once it starts it never stops...I'll get him..I'm on my way!


Many supposed responses augmented with visuals, but they in essence are not really responses at all so the visuals cannot augment something that is not there in the first place.  


A real response has something to back it up and support it with at least some evidence. None of the above 3 visuals shows such things, and the responses therefore remain empty challenges to the facts.


And another piece of supporting evidence to my original challenge is that I dont see any pro engineers saying they thought the Pod HD can be mistaken for a real studio recording.


So unlike the Pod HD series which had a misleading HD set of letters, something that is not misleading is the following accutate description which actually accurately describes the Axe FX from the Axe WikI:


"Unique to the processing in the Axe-Fx is our proprietary natural processing algorithms. Many of the algorithms in the Axe-Fx replicate patterns that occur in nature (this is where our company name was derived from). The reverb algorithm replicates the sound of a real room, the chorus and flanger use special variable delay algorithms that are more natural and smooth that any pedal (analog or digital) could ever achieve and the amp simulations use unique, dynamic, non-linearity generators that produce smooth, even-ordered harmonics giving a depth to the sound that other processors lack"


Along with our superior algorithms the Axe-Fx uses the finest quality components available. The op-amps, A/D and D/A converters and passive components are all of the highest quality. The converters are the same converters used in high-end studio equipment costing many thousands of dollars. A single op-amp in the Axe- Fx costs more than all the op-amps combined in many “budget” processors.


Additionally our unique analog topology eliminates any electrolytic capacitors from the signal path. Only high-quality film capacitors and precision metal-film resistors are used in the signal path assuring low-noise and low-distortion performance. These features also allow the Axe-Fx to excel as an general purpose outboard processor for studio and live use."


Thankfully, this was the truth when I actually heard the unit.  And you definetly get what you pay for.  There is years and years worth of code programmed into the unit.   The DSP in the unit does over 2 billion floating point operations a second, it uses 32 bit floating point numbers.


(Who is for once actually giong to respond with facts supporting the HD by the way?)

Anyone here who has attempted to compare a mere toy to this is nothing but a complete bozo.  This was my last post because its no use talking to a wall.   But to those in here who were actually open-minded, thank you for your consideration.  You deserve better than the totally mis-informed and ill-willed treatment that was counter-productive in here.  You will not be dissappointed with your new Axe.  It has a very 3D quality to it, but not too harsh on the highs - still retaining a warm soft analog quality., while still retaining the large "in your face" sound if you so wish. 

P.S. Sweeping through the low pass filter in the HD with an expression pedal is a total joke along with many of the other blocks, distortions, effects, etc.  

And finally, to some of the mis-informed individuals in  here - including the original poster of this  thread, I am also informing you that circus is now accepting job  applications, so get those spots while they last.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by boynigel on 2010-11-29 16:05:20

Karl_Houseknecht wrote:

leesguitar wrote:

The amp mpdel eq's are the same as the ones on the origional amps. Lets face it they were pretty useless! The parametric on the HD isnt good enough to make up for it. This meant that they lacked some of the "bite" i like to cut through a mix in a live situation. How about being able to replace the tone stack on the amps with a custom one that works?

Respectfully, I disagree here.  The tone stacks on the HD are not the same as the original amps, nor are they the same as they were in the X series.  Far more tone sculpting ability than they've ever had, and that was done on purpose so that you'd be able to dial in the tone using nothing more than just the amp model.  Something I can say was not possible for me on the X series, but that I can achieve easily on the HD.

You talked about having a "blanket" over the cab and needing to cut through...not sure how loud you're playing but at gig volume I still have to dial back the high end or it can get piercing.  It all has to do with cab and mic choice.

I agree about needing a more robust EQ option.  I don't like many of the offerings, but there are some very useful ones like the 4 band shift EQ.  You just need to really experiment with it and listen because without a visualization graph, it's not obvious what that or any of the other EQ models are doing.

i've got to agree with Karl here.  i've been playing guitar and buying gear for over 25 years now.   i own, or have owned amps like Mesa Tremoverbs, Mesa Lonestars, Mesa Ace, Fender Prosonic, Fender Supersonic, Budda Superdrive 18, Carr Mercury, Carr Rambler, Tech21, Carvins, and so on.  i'm not mentioning this to brag, but rather hit home the point that my HD can hang with any of these.  in some ways the amps are better, in other ways the HD is.  but they really are on par now.  like Karl said- you've got to experiment with the cab and mic models.  personally i can't fathom how anyone would need bags of eq editing on the HD.  i've already duplicated the tones of a few of the aforementioned amps with my HD and the only eq i needed was the amp knobs, mic, and cabinet models.  if you can't do it with those 3 things, well, i'm not going to say it.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by ozbadman on 2010-11-29 17:57:02

So sell your HD500 and buy an AXE-FX and people who like their HD500's can keep them, and everyone's happy. Seems pretty simple to solve to me.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by amgamg on 2010-11-29 18:15:11

Absolutely in the cabs and mics. That's becomes my second adjustment once I've got some basic tone down than I'll go back and re adjust the tone knobs. I'm putting the HD in front of  a Blue Angel....which is perfect cause of its full range of tone with a tight low end. Point is  the HD500 extends the useful range of the amp into realms it cant go other wise and sounds realistic once its there. I'm pretty impressed with it. I've always liked the sound of a fairly clean type of amp...the HD 500 gives me some nasty tones that actually sound better through the Angel as its basis than just using a dirty amp. I'm not sure that makes sense...but it sounds real. The cabs and mics are an EQ. I've done this with other modlers but this is even more true of the HD.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by amgamg on 2010-11-29 18:33:58

untitled2.bmp



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by litesnsirens on 2010-11-29 19:25:12

Hey Karl, good sounding clips. Were you using the Lambourghini and space shuttle effects? Because I thought those effects were only available on the ax fx.  But you still nailed them pretty well. Seriously though the last time I heard a my dad's car is better than your dad's car argument, I think I was in grade school.  I know it sounds condescending and I apologize for that but seriously it's a ridiculous argument.  Trying to sound intellectual about how much horsepower your dad's car has which is supposed to make it "better".  How can someone make an argument that Line 6 can't use the letters HD.  They have worked on this unit and rebuilt their models and they can call it whatever they want.  Truth be told I was not a fan of the original pod stuff, and kind of stayed away from Line 6 for a long time.  But I sold my TC electronics Nova System to get the M13 and just traded that in today to get the HD500.  And that's even after reading this thread last night. No I was not swayed against it.  You see Rembrandt had brushes and oil paint, and yet I'll take his paintings over Photoshop renderings any day, despite the fact that the brushes he used had way less ram.  I'll echo what others have said, in the right hands the tools become more effective.  If you can't get good tone from the HD50, and I mean real useable tone for studio or live applications, then Maybe you do need more horsepower. A lot of us can do it with less.  You get to a point where you've used so much gear, 35 years worth, that you start looking at convenience. Of course we are all in the quest for tone and it's front and foremost, but we are of course looking for convenience and versatility as well.   That is going to look different for each player on this forum.   So while "I can't get MY tone from this piece of gear" is a good argument, "therefore no one else can" is NOT. It's really that simple.  Back to the HD thing, in case there are people who haven't noticed, each company is brands their own gear.  I drive a Ford Freestar van (someone in the band has to be able to lug the gear), but it's not really a "star" and it wasn't "free", and it's not a "star" in comparison to other vehicles, but despite all that, I don't honestly think I have a case for false advertising.  In reality compared to the earlier pod offerings I think these new models are higher definition, and Line 6 has every right to compare against themselves.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by silverhead on 2010-11-29 19:43:10

.... just to echo your opening observation.....

Seriously though the last time I heard a my Rembrandt is better than your Photoshop argument, I think I was in grade school.......

(just kidding, of course...)



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by wardick on 2010-11-29 20:11:13

This thread and any like it:

http://www.jeremyglover.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/logmein-control-your-pc-from-your-pc.jpg



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Dime13 on 2010-11-29 20:50:08

phil_m wrote:

Troll_fail.jpg

oh really?  Care to show how?  nice try but its invalid if you make an assertion about someone, and then fail to show how they are what you are describing them as, then it makes our attempt futile.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2010-11-30 05:13:00

Hey guys, I know flame-baiting is fun and all, but can we keep it on the civil side here?



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by amgamg on 2010-11-30 06:29:37

Well......maybe that ones borderline. Just the same..the guy keeps begging for it. I woulda quit a couple of pages ago..really!



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by silverhead on 2010-11-30 06:38:34

He said he was going away a couple of pages ago. The only reason he's still here is that people keep baiting him. Please, let's let the flame die out.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by amgamg on 2010-11-30 06:47:02

A_Fire_Extinguisher_Putting_Out_A_Fire_Royalty_Free_Clipart_Picture_091019-124952-520042.jpgOK...but I think this guys a self starter!



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by ricksox on 2010-11-30 08:16:53

OK enough please. Civil debate and discussion is one thing but baiting someone who has a different opinion is unacceptable. Thank you for understanding.

Line6Miller



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Dime13 on 2010-11-30 08:21:23

Im not offended at all from the artwork.  No reason to be, the attempts are futile.

Go enjoy your HD.  As well as your chevy cavalier.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2010-11-30 08:25:06

FarBeyond3 wrote:


Go enjoy your HD.  As well as your chevy cavalier.

I actually have both.  My 2001 Cavalier has 195,000 miles on it, is paid for, and gets me reliably back and forth from work and gigs.  So did the two of those I owned previously.  Great piece of gear.  LOL!

And what's even better is that it thinks it's a truck.  I can haul a 412 cab in the trunk, and in the fold-down back seat, I haul two amp heads in ATA cases, two guitars, a pedal board, a wireless rig case, two guitar stands, and two gig bags.  And still room for a passenger up front.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by phil_m on 2010-11-30 08:30:50

Hehe... you hate Chevy as well?  You probably hate apple pie, too!



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by amgamg on 2010-11-30 09:33:14

Ya know ya laughed...I do understand!



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Crusty_Old_Rocker on 2010-12-01 02:48:31

leesguitar wrote:

+1n on that.

Some of the amps (especially the higher gain ones) Sound muffled, like there is a blanket over the speakers and the eq on the unit is nowhere near good enough to sort them out.

Hi leesguitar,

What did you have the HD500 plugged into?  Getting the best out of the gear does depend on how it's amplified.

What you have described is lightyears away from the tone and feel of what I have experienced playing either direct to active PA speakers using studio direct or through the DT50 via the L6 LINK.  I definitely get the impression that what you were using to amplify the HD500 might have spoiled things for you.

Cheers,

Crusty



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by egelmett on 2010-12-31 08:17:58

After reading this ENTIRE thread (most of it was good, early morning - sip the coffee, debate), and replying to nobody in particular...

I think I can agree with those that say the Axe-FX is higher in fidelity than the HD series. In the Metal Shootout YouTube video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmcHJq5hqHA), this being my only exposure to the Axe-FX sound, the only tone I prefer of the HD is the Recto. I must say I do not play music with this high of gain, so I'm a bit indifferent as to what tone one would use in metal context.

However, it is known in audio Mastering, that the louder tones are often "perceived" as being better. I would suggest that in this YouTube video this effect takes place: the tone with the higher frequency range is perceived as better.

One aspect that hasn't been discussed regarding which device is "better" is when is it "better"? On stage? Rehearsals? Recording? Incessant comparisons over the internet?

Alone in the video, I can acknowledge the fidelity of all the Axe-FX amps are greater. There's simply more high-end in the tone. But, that's not all there is to good tone.

When I think about the bandwidth of a guitar's tone, I don't think of electric, distorted guitar as a full range instrument. I don't want the the tone of a distorted guitar to mask the definition of a bass guitar, the articulation of the vocals, and the splash and brilliance of the cymbals. It would be too much!

So, while the Axe-FX is technically higher fidelity, I'd say that's probably not a good thing, in context of the arrangement of a song.

Sure, if your aspirations of your musical career consists of making tedious technical comparisons of guitar tone products, perhaps the Axe-FX is the best.

But, if you're like most of us, the context of the tone is key. And, I can't say that I've ever heard any song and said "if only they used X product" for their guitar tone, it would be a much better song....



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2010-12-31 12:21:21

egelmett wrote:

I can't say that I've ever heard any song and said "if only they used X product" for their guitar tone, it would be a much better song....

That is so true!

We're all nitpicking about which one is better heard on a compressed YouTube video or mp3.  Honestly, when you start having to really listen hard to hear the differences, and everyone is picking out good and bad from either product, that ought to tell you something right there.  BOTH are good.  This coming from the guy that has owned and played both, not just heard them on YouTube.

I was struck the other day while listening to some song from the earlier 80's through my studio cans at just how AWFUL the guitar tone was.  I mean, BAD.  Sounded like he plugged an overdrive pedal into the mixer.   Easily acheivable tone through even the most modest of modelers on the market today.  And yet, the song was incredibly successful and has stood the test of time.  So maybe we're just being cork sniffers here?  I recorded a partial demo for a friend's song idea the other day and just used Gearbox for a basic plexi tone and they FLIPPED OUT over how great the guitars sounded.

Any of these tools will get you there.  Any of them.  All have good and bad points, but honestly...just how bad are the bad points?



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by boynigel on 2010-12-31 13:21:54

these last two posts really put it into perspective for me.  nothing i didn't know already, but when you hear somebody else say it, it kind of rings more true for some reason or another.  could this be a late xmas miracle, with people starting to converge here?  i have an HD500, a '97 Mesa Tremoverb, and a Fender Supersonic.  none can do what the others can, and NONE are going anywhere.  they're all keepers!



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by litesnsirens on 2010-12-31 20:07:59

All I know is I'm falling deeper in love with the HD500 with each passing day.  It sounds great through my amp, and it sounds great through my pa.  Actually talking about nitpicking, I'm going the other way, I'm mean I could make separate set lists, one for my amp and one for my pa but I have decided to tweak my patches so they sound good through both.  If that means a little bit of compromise then so be it.  For one thing, if I decide to just bring the HD500 and my pa to rehearsal, I'll have a fairly good representation of my sound and I won't have to change any settings.  And I won't forget to change settings back before a gig to go through my amp.   Most importantly, if I want to run left mono out to my amp and right mono out to the pa I'll have fairly consistent tone in both places. To put all this back into the perpsective of the thread and the recent flavour it's taking.  I play in a cover band, I've been playing in bands for about 35 years, but there is a lazy side to me, so I try to create some bread and butter tones that will work across multiple songs. I'm not the kind of guy who is going to try to nail every tone from every song to a "T" and make 45 + patches for a night. I have a few specialty patches, but I get through most of the night with 4 patches ( which of course have some variations on the footswitches).  And my guitar tone sounds great for every song.  So, just as we realize that we don't listen to songs and say that could have used a better guitar tone, or perhaps notice that there is a terrible guitar tone in a song that has been really popular, the truth is if we play those songs live, we can use a tone that we think sounds fine for the song. Heck in the early days I did all my covers with a single channel amp and a few stomp pedals.  Now that I have the HD500 I have so many choices but choose to keep it simple.  Don't get me wrong good tone is as important to me as it is to anyone, but I can get everything I need from the HD500 and I can't ever imagine wanting or needing the axe fx.  When I watch the YouTube comparisons, I don't think either one sounds better, I think it's sounds different.   The fact is they are both modelers, its true you will get fairly consistent tone from two different rectifiers, or twins or vox's, especially if they are fairly close in era.   But there may be some differences especially if you are talking about vintage pieces.  So, taking that into consideration, and the fact that those amps were modeled by different people in different labs using different items, and yet look how close they sound.  It could very well come down to the fact that if you choose the same amp model on the axe fx and the HD500 and set all the settings the same, they sound a little different.  That doesn't mean you couldn't tweak the tone a little closer.   Personally, I could give a crap if any of the models sound exactly like the amp being modeled.  The model names are just reference points that help me figure out where to start.  Ultimately it's the final tone I achieve that matters, not what's inside the box or how much I paid for it.  After all the years I have been playing, I'm so inspired by the tones I get from the HD500 that I'm playing my guitar 2 to 3 hours a day.   My fingers are raw!   Now I have just ordered, a JTV59 to go with it, I'm really excited about the combination.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by amgamg on 2011-01-01 07:58:11

Any of these tools will get you there.  Any of them.  All have good and bad points, but honestly...just how bad are the bad points?

Depends on who's pointing things out!

The greatest thing about these forums on the Internet is the immediate feedback a reader can get. The biggest problem is that in terms of expressing ourselves....we all have varying motives and ability to write our thoughts out well enough. So in the end it still comes down to trying stuff out and making a decision. I think many want to like what others like...seeking approval on the net...which has nothing to do with music or sound...at all!



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Jasonbrianmerrill on 2011-01-06 06:13:10

those patch files don't seem to work properly here...



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2011-01-06 08:32:03

Jasonbrianmerrill wrote:

those patch files don't seem to work properly here...

In what way?  Are you getting an error or something?  What are you seeing?



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by papersoul on 2011-01-10 20:47:27

I will take this argument one step farther. I think if you use a tube power amp.....the differences in terms od real amp realism gets even closer. I can use my POD X3 through a tube power amp and get amazing tones! It is hard for me to want an HD500 after getting such great X3 tones through a tube amp.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by papersoul on 2011-01-12 07:01:04

So Karl.........have you found it best to gig out with tube amps as compared to the Pod HD?

You mentioned at a show a sound guy mentioned the real tube amp sounding way better. On the flip side a friend of mine gigged with a Line 6 HD head years ago and was told by the sound guy that the HD sounded better at the gig than his Diezel VH4.....for small clubs, etc.

Had you compared to the Eleven Rack - there is a youtube clip comparing the Eleven to a Mesa Roadster and the 11 sounded every bit as good.

I aks because I am on the fence. I have a 20th Anniversary EL34 Bogner Shiva and soon a Mesa Boogie Electradyne after I sell my VHT ST/50.

For my current cover band/original band I was considering a modelling rig. I was thinking of the DT-50 and HD500 for a great solution but it looks like the HD is unable to change channels on the DT so it might make more sense for me to use an HD-500 into a tube power amp...

I wish the DT and HD were a little better integrated...

My goal is to have a small modelling rig consisting of the HD500 and Mesa Boogie 50/50 tube power amp and Mesa Rectifier 212 cabinet with Classic lead 80 and Vintage 30.

If you have found good old tube amps to be best...I might stick to my tube heads and pedals. I just hate all the pedal dancing! Wish I could find a way to avoid the pedal dance.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by JB1973 on 2011-01-13 19:10:43

Hey thanks for the clips they sounded really good, on the web

They lost a bit of the effect coming out of my dt50 2x12 due to the mono amp though. Will

try them tomorrow through the PA. I noticed the clips were or were close to being maxed out volume wise.

Can someone share mixing tips for going to an amp like or for the dt50. I am having a hard

time with should the volume be up way high and master low or which, I can't have both high

that would blow the roof off my two story house. And obviously maxing out volume on each

patch would give you completely unleveled patches for live playing.

Or are we saying max out volume on the patch for recording only. I have seen people subscribing

to both philosophies.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Lance on 2011-02-22 01:02:09

I'm late to this thread, very late.

Excellent tones, Karl.

You're indeed a brave man to take on the Axe-FX FBI investigating special forces detective team that controls the internet.

Well done.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2011-02-22 05:53:23

Lance wrote:

You're indeed a brave man to take on the Axe-FX FBI investigating special forces detective team that controls the internet.

LOL!  Fractal's black helicopters are most assuredly hovering over my location as we speak.

I must say this one more time for the record, the title of this thread was meant as a joke.  The joke being a reference to a thread over in the Lounge entitled "Fractal Audio Axe-Fx Made Me Sell My X3".  The point of the thread was just to post some cool (at the time) patches from the 500 with a provacative title that was sure to draw attention.  I think I went a little too far in that regard.

The HD500 didn't, by itself, make me sell my Axe-Fx.  Truth be told the major influence came from a Marshall TSL100 and a Boss GT-10.  A guitar buddy of mine, after hearing both the Axe and Marshall rigs, told me that under no circumstances was I to bring the Axe rig back to the band, that the real amp and cab sounded far better than the Axe and FRFR solution.  Then I got a Fryette Sig:X which took that to a whole other level.

Still, the HD500 is an amazing piece of gear for the money, and when I saw and heard where it was going, it became an important factor in the sale of the Axe.  If I could fulfill my modeling needs with the 500, lighten my rig by a hundred pounds or more, and put about $4500 back in my music budget, it seemed a wise decision.  I don't miss the Axe at all, and I have to be honest that I'm far happier with my tone on all fronts.  The HD is going to start playing a more central role in my rigs in the near future.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Lance on 2011-02-22 09:11:43

Hey Karl

We tested a bunch of Marshalls in a store the other day...we were testing different Tokai LP models and used the Marshalls because this store are the Marshall distributors and had them all on display in the amp room.

The JVMs were awesome (but very noisy), the 1923 85th Anniversary was great, but nothing was better than the TSL100 clean channel, it's exceptionally/surprisingly good.

I know what your band mates are talking about, they've got good ears, no HD500 or Axe-FX through a dozen QSC K12s will sound the same...maybe good, but not the same. 



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2011-02-22 12:03:43

Lance wrote:

nothing was better than the TSL100 clean channel, it's exceptionally/surprisingly good.

I tell you, that's the most underrated clean channel on any amp.  I never hear anyone talking about it, but it is just awesome.  Takes pedals so well.  I won't sell it.  I like the crunch channel on that amp too.  Very, very good.  The lead channel takes some tweaking, but it can handle okay.

But I'm just really, really impressed with my Sig:X on EVERY channel, though.  And that's even after the honeymoon period.  It's the best sounding overall tube amp that I've played.  With the boost feature it's like having a 6 channel amp.  No pedals needed.  Well, except for maybe some noise reduction on very high gain.  But that's expected.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by beanbag on 2011-02-22 12:26:33

Would I not be correct in pointing out that a fair comparison between the HD500 and a live amp in a room, would be listening to a MICed amp in a room. I compare it to the visual world when I pursue my other hobby (photography) and how you have to visualize how the world of 3D will translate to film (or sensor) as you take a picture.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2011-02-22 12:42:39

beanbag wrote:

Would I not be correct in pointing out that a fair comparison between the HD500 and a live amp in a room, would be listening to a MICed amp in a room.

Yes, that is correct.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by spaceatl on 2011-02-22 14:12:33

"As soon as I got home I started cooking. I had a few hours until Lois' flight. I told my brother to keep an eye on the stove. All day long the poor guy's been watching helicopters and tomato sauce. You see I had to drive over to Sandy's place, mix the stuff once and then get back to the gravy."



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2011-02-22 15:28:15

Goodfellas.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by litesnsirens on 2011-02-22 15:36:34

I think EL34 clean tones don't get enough credit.  Everyone seems to just jump on the Fender 6L6 spanky clean tone as being the measuring stick.  On the Boogie forums, guys like me that swap out the 6L's for 34's in their Mark V's are told we are taking a hit on the clean channel.  I say "what hit" I love the clean sound of 34's.  Maybe I prefer a smoother clean and don't want that exaggerated top end.  I loved the clean on my old Hi-watt 50 head, the marshall JCM combo, I love the clean on the mesa stiletto's and I love the clean on my EL34 loaded Mark 5.  So I could definitely see where you would love the clean on the TSL100.  Here's to giving EL 34 clean tones their dues.  I don't mind EL84 cleans for that matter either.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by beanbag on 2011-02-22 19:20:12

Karl_Houseknecht wrote:

beanbag wrote:

Would I not be correct in pointing out that a fair comparison between the HD500 and a live amp in a room, would be listening to a MICed amp in a room.

Yes, that is correct.

Thanks Karl.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by beanbag on 2011-02-23 09:15:05

Apologies...Double post..looks like the previous one was delayed...thanks



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Dime13 on 2011-02-23 13:00:14

I just got an Eventide H8000 as i use this as my converters too on the way in and on the way out.  Because the Evendite's converters sound big reminiscent of an Apogee Symphony.

I just rented the HD500 to compare the Axe FX to it and then I am using Audio Technica  M40 FS flat frequency response monitoring headphones to monitor through this extremely accurate signal path.

I suggest everyone does a similar experiment to compare the two units.  Although I must admit the Eventide is quite an enhancer -   regardless there is quite a difference in the two signals.

Anyways with that aside, the main problem with the pod stuff is that you can't modify the internals of the amps.  This is why if you are looking for a particular type of distortion waveform - customizable basically - then Axe FX made me sell Pod thread is still valid.  And the stock cabinet IRs in the Pods - HD or not - are a bit cheesy.

But why cant you import your own impulses like Redwirez IRs into Pod stuff?  Makes no sense!!  I have no use whatsoever for the stock cabs.   Even in the Axe Forum they are admitting the HD stuff is an improvement, but definetly not in the cabinet department.  And this is a common opinion not just over there.   People still have to bypass the POD cabs and either use cab IRs in a DAW or otherwise.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by papersoul on 2011-02-23 14:18:32

With the Treadplate and J800, was that using the dual tone feature or did you record the JC800 separately?

I have been debating on if I should just get the HD300 because I don't need as many effects as the 500 and I don't think I need the dual tone feature for recording. 



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by papersoul on 2011-05-10 04:44:43

As much as I want to believe I find it hard to believe the HD500 with lower end components and slower processing could keep up with the core tones of an Axe FX.  I do know people with both and they tend to use the HD500 as a back up to the Axe FX. Most of these guys I know don;t even get into the deep editing, they just dial up an amp and tweak the basic controls and never touch the deep editing available in the Axe because you don't have to, the stock tone sare good enough. The deep, insane editing is there if you need it.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Nick_Mattocks on 2011-05-10 06:22:19

papersoul wrote:

As much as I want to believe I find it hard to believe the HD500 with lower end components and slower processing could keep up with the core tones of an Axe FX.  I do know people with both and they tend to use the HD500 as a back up to the Axe FX. Most of these guys I know don;t even get into the deep editing, they just dial up an amp and tweak the basic controls and never touch the deep editing available in the Axe because you don't have to, the stock tone sare good enough. The deep, insane editing is there if you need it.

I think Karl's initial point in this long thread was: a) presented in a jokey kind of way with the title of the thread being a parody on another very old thread in the X3 forum which was along the lines of 'Axe FX made me sell my X3', which was kind of missed by some respondents to this thread, and b) that he found he was able to do what he needed to do with the then modelling and features of the HD500.

At no point as I recall did Karl state anything other than the fact that the Axe FX was a good piece of kit, although the thread did get a bit out of hand as it progressed.  It's not my intention to revive that at all.

In my mind, whilst the Axe FX units are undeniably good at what they do, the HD500 is also a very good piece of kit at a much lower price point that satisfies a lot of users' needs admirably with good and accurate real amp modelling, a good degree of flexibility and a good and solid range of FX modelling.  It isn't an Axe FX, but it does do a lot of the things an Axe FX does well.  It's horses for courses: ie - if you are someone who needs all the features of the Axe FX to get a sound you can be 100% happy with and you have the money to spend on an Axe FX system, then that's the system you should probably opt for, but if like a lot of people, your optimum price point on a modelling floor based system is around £400 - £450 GBP and you want something that can deliver excellent tone , good quality FX and a level of deep editing for your moneybut maybe without some of the other features that the Axe FX might offer, then the HD500 will probably suit your needs and your pocket.

Like most other people, ninety nine times out of every hundred, I simply dial up my amp tones with the normal basic controls on my HD500, add a few FX, tweak those FX in terms of delay times or whatever and I'm done with no need to resort to anything deeper than that.  Personally, I feel the stock tones that are available in the HDx00 series are very very good and very authentic sounding.  I'm sure that's true of the Axe FX systems too.

It's a moot point and incredibly subjective in many ways about the level of components that are used respectively in the HD500 and the Axe FX and there will always be users in both camps that will claim that the HDx00 or the Axe FX sound better because of various loyalties that they might have; and then there will be users who can hear for themselves what each unit sounds like when modelling a Fender Twin or a JCM800 or whatever and who will be able to make their own assessment of which unit sounds closer to the original - or probably and more likely which unit actually sounds better to their ears (NB: not necessarily which sounds the most accurate).

What it sounds like, ease of configuration and what it 'feels' like to end users are probably the most important factors for most potential users I'd guess

It's all highly subjective of course, but the bottom line has to be whether at the end of the day, the potential user has the money to spend on an Axe FX and whether the fact that the cost of the basic Axe FX unit without controllers being roughly four times more expensive than the HD500 means it's four times 'better' than the HD500; and whether any aspects that are considered 'better' are what might be considered 'key' aspects.  The 'word 'better' is of course the subjective part.

I am inclined to think, for what it's worth, and based on the usual laws of diminishing returns (ie something that costs four times as much as something else, may be slightly better in some ways but not usually four times as much - maybe twice as much if you're lucky - and not always that much); that the Axe FX may theoretically be potentially a more capable unit where it matters (ie 'key' aspects) because of the faster processing power etc.that it has at its disposal, that it rather more depends on what the product developers, sound designers and programmers have been able to do with that power.

Each unit will almost certainly have been developed based on an 'allowed' budget, which is usually derived from and worked backwards from what the end user is likely to be prepared to pay.  In that respect I don't think the Axe FX and HD500 are necessarily in the same ball park in terms of who exactly each unit is aimed at.

In the respect of whether the HD500 can deliver great tones with its component set or whether the Axe FX can deliver equally great tones with its component set, I don't think there's any doubt that both units perform very well, however for the 'normal' discerning user for want of a better term, with normal budgetary restrictions caused by life in general, I think personally that the HD500 offers a lot of bang for buck and it does manage to punch above its weight very well - so much so that some previous Axe FX owners have indeed decided that whilst their old Axe FX was great and everything, that they didn't actually need all the features of an Axe FX to get them their required sound (Karl's initial point as an ex Axe owner), sold their Axe FX units, bought an HD500 which satisfies their actual requirements.

Whilst I don't believe the HD500 was originally conceived to be in direct competition with the Axe FX, it has found itself in some respects to be in competition because it does what it does as well as it does.

With yesterday's announcement of the forthcoming Axe FX II and its reported component set etc... I will be interested to see or more importantly perhaps, hear, what Fractal have actually been able to do with the resources they have at hand in the new unit.

If you are currently in the market for a capable modelling solution, then you should probably audition the POD HD500, Eleven Rack and Axe FX systems and make your choice based on the amount of money you have to spend, the features you need, quality of output and ease of use so that you get the best solution that is most appropriate for you.

Nick



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by satchfrk on 2011-05-18 17:53:29

I would really like to hear these files.

Could you repost please? Thanks!



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2011-05-18 20:22:29

They are now attached to the original post.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by papersoul on 2011-05-22 14:54:55

I was recenty al set to order an Axe FX II but thought to myself about how technology moves so fast....things become out dated and then move on. For the average home player, hobbyist, and for me even with the occassional jam and gig, i can;t justify $2200 for a digital modelling amp when I think Line 6 is 90% there already. I would be thrilled with a Line 6 HD Pro and VHT power amp and guarantee in a band context, very few could tell which is the Axe and which is the L6. I just don;t like floor units because I hat that I have to run a power cord out to the board.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by boynigel on 2011-05-22 16:36:24

"As much as I want to believe I find it hard to believe the HD500 with lower end components"

this statement always gives me a chuckle.  please define, "lower end components".  do you mean lower end as in, make in china?  at risk of stating the obvious, virtually EVERYTHING is made in china.  that boutique amp that's "made in usa"...chances are very good that the vast majority of its compenents are made in china.  well, except for the Switchcraft jacks.  those are made in MEXICO.  the more honest amp builders will admit to this.  i'd say that less than 3% of the members on this forum, right down to the "experts" are qualified to state just exactly what constitutes a "low end" component.  if it sounds good, it sounds good.  if it takes a beating on a regular basis and keeps coming back for more- which mine does, then tell me when my low end components should start to fail.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by satchfrk on 2011-05-22 23:38:50

The Line 6 amp modeling is pretty good. Sadly the cabinet modeling is still not good enough. So whether this would win over an Axe Fx going straight to PA? The answer is no.

However, if they include the ability to add custom irs that changes the game immensely. I've posted this to another thread but reposting here too.

I've made a clip that you can listen to. It is a comparison of the Treadplate cabinet model in the PodHD500 vs OwnHammer impulses (Mesa Boogie cabinet with V30s). The amp model is a Treadplate amp with the settings constant across each take.

http://soundcloud.com/kliknine/comparison-of-pod-hd500

I barely spent any time dialing both tones in and I tried to get them both to sound as best as I could. For reference to the original track,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2HpBs_ri808



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by litesnsirens on 2011-05-23 09:15:33

The second clip is certainly a different sound, as far as the quality I don't hear a difference.  The first cab is darker the second brighter.  Both sound good, it just depends on the sound you are going for, obviously you are going for the second or there would be no reason for the post. If your point is accuracy, I guess we would have to listen to the actual amp + Cab that Line 6 modelled compared to the HD500 to really say whether they got it or not.  Trying to compare Line 6's rendition of a rectifier series amp against an actual LOG recording in which they are using Mark series amps probably isn't really the best test for accuracy, while it's still apples to apples it's kind of like saying the Macintosh apple doesn't taste like the granny smith. 

If the goal of the post is to convince Line 6 to offer the ability to load custom IR's I certainly don't want to detract from that.  While I am certainly happy with cabinet models that are included, I don't play metal and it seems to me that most of the complaints regarding the HD series is from guys trying to get tones they can use to play metal.  Further, the fact that I don't play metal and can get great sounding tones doesn't mean that I wouldn't appreciate added flexibility.  It's certainly true that in the end, the most amount of time I spend in tweaking a tone is auditioning the cabs/mics.  I don't know that custom IR's would save me time (more choices to audition), but if that's where I am spending my time it would seem that it is a crucial aspect in the process. 

My point is not to be argumentative but in the end I would rebut your initial point that the cabinet models aren't "good enough".  As to whether the HD500 would "win" against the Axe FX going direct to PA I can't comment I don't own an Axe FX and I am seldom in a situation, make that never in a situation where I am trying to win against the Axe FX.  I use my HD500 to gig, and I have never had a situation where some dude shows up with an Axe FX and challenges me to a contest.  I can run this thing directly into my Bose L1 PA and get great sounding tones for a variety of material, so I think the cab models are "good enough". 



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by phil_m on 2011-05-23 09:39:55

"Win" is such an odd term to me when talking about something subjective like tone and playing guitar. In terms of number of units sold, the HD500 has already "won". Line 6 probably sells more HD500s in a day or so than Fractal sells Axe-FXs in a year. The question to me, really, becomes is the extra $1500+ a justifiable premium for what the Axe FX has to offer over and above the HD500. If we're talking about nuances that only corksniffers will hear, than the answer to me is no.  I view modelers sort of like computers. They are technology that serve a purpose over a given lifespan, and they will probably be somewhat obsolete within 3-5 years. That's a bit different than how I see something like a guitar or good tube amp. So right now, if I have $500 to spend on a modeler, what's the best bang for my buck? Looking at the field, I don't see much that offers more than the HD500.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by TheRealZap on 2011-05-23 09:49:08

boynigel wrote:

"As much as I want to believe I find it hard to believe the HD500 with lower end components"

seems to me that in the case of tone... the sum is always greater than the parts...

meaning the sound that comes out is what matters... no matter how many fancy parts are in the box...

<a target=new href=http://rlv.zcache.com/dont_drink_the_kool_aid_sticker_bumper_sticker-p128852040354568622trl0_400.jpg" class="jive-image" src="http://rlv.zcache.com/dont_drink_the_kool_aid_sticker_bumper_sticker-p128852040354568622trl0_400.jpg"/>



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by GonzaloTrejos on 2011-08-15 10:45:54

I agree, but It's the same like, say, Flight Simulators. If you have the money for a Gulfstream Jet and flying lessons, you probably won't like the "Gulfstream Jet Flying Simulation Software" experience, even less if the software costs half the price of the actual jet.

Amp simulators are solutions, ways to achieve certain sonic properties on your instrument, not intended to replace real hardware. Technologies from all studio plug-in manufacturers, Fractal, L6, Roland, etc. are so advanced that you might think of them as the Nasa Space Camp of amp sims, and probably a well over 50% of the music you hear in every style on the radio have guitars processed on some kind of sim.

I would say, get a good guitar, focus on the sound from your fingers, practice a lot to achieve clean and articulate tone from them... in time you'll sound great on whatever piece of equipment you choose.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by DarkZenGuitar on 2011-08-15 17:53:33

I would say, get a good guitar, focus on the sound from your fingers, practice a lot to achieve clean and articulate tone from them... in time you'll sound great on whatever piece of equipment you choose.

I think that about says it all.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by toneman2121 on 2011-08-15 18:12:15

i think i'm gonna tend to, quite possibly, and without further ado, from an amateurs perspective, agree



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by toasterdude on 2011-08-15 19:09:24

That may be true but the Axe is indeed made in the US. It also uses much better DSP, ADs etc etc etc. That is no slight on Line6 as the Axe better use much better components if it costs quadruple the price.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by boynigel on 2011-08-15 19:29:41

"the Axe is indeed made in the US"...from a bunch of import components.  i don't really care, just saying is all.




Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by toasterdude on 2011-08-15 19:38:41

boynigel wrote:

"the Axe is indeed made in the US"...from a bunch of import components.  i don't really care, just saying is all.


Compare pricing on the DSP in Axe and HD. Compare the DA converters. Compare the quality of the on/off switch. . . .oh wait. . .lol.

I don't think the issue is if the parts are imported or not. I think the issue is the quality of the parts and maybe the QC. The boards and stuffing for Axe are all done in the US as well and the units are built by hand by a small team. Seems weird to say "boutique" modeler but it sort of is. . .and you pay accordingly.

Heck the headphone outs on my 2 X3Pros were completely useless. One of the XLr ins on one of them died after very little use. I have a VDI cable "stuck" in one X3l and that same X3l has a FS that stopped working.

Ya get what ya pay for.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Lance on 2011-08-15 22:38:49

You're 100% certain everything in the Axe-FX11 is made in the USA?

Go do some reasearch my friend, you'll be disappointed to find out you're wrong....be sure to put on a helmet and some armour when you do the reaearch because you're gonna get attacked for asking the question.

In any event the Axe-FX is old news, yesterdays news, the Kemper profiling amp now rules the world.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by toasterdude on 2011-08-16 04:16:58

Lance wrote:

You're 100% certain everything in the Axe-FX11 is made in the USA?

Go do some reasearch my friend, you'll be disappointed to find out you're wrong....be sure to put on a helmet and some armour when you do the reaearch because you're gonna get attacked for asking the question.

In any event the Axe-FX is old news, yesterdays news, the Kemper profiling amp now rules the world.

Never said it was all made in the US. I said they used better components and did assembly by hand and QC in the US. Again. . .they better if they charge quadruple. Not expecting L6 to use the same quality components and manufacturing and still cost 500 bucks. Would dig if they did a more pro level box that had better components, features and quality but I think that is of very little interest to Line 6. They are all about large volume mass market. Nothing wrong with that. Profit is good!!

I don't think anything is old news. I have an Ultra and a II and still use PODs. I am very interested in seeing or buying a kemper as well. The princeton clips I saw on youtube were killer.  They are all different beasts and just tools. More tools is better. I may wait till they make a rack version of the kemper though as their form factor does nothing for me but the concept and some of the sounds I have heard have me VERY interested.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by gregr on 2011-08-16 08:43:05

You're going to be hard-pressed demonstrating any real audible differences between the AD and DA converters used by Line 6 and Fractal Audio.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by phil_m on 2011-08-16 09:05:25

More tools is better.

You would think this is the case, but I don't think I'd necessarily agree anymore. I don't think simply having more options available to us in the way of effects and amp and cab models is making any qualitative difference in our skills as guitarists or songwriters. Sure, it makes our lives easier in different scenarios, but it also makes our lives more complicated.

You say you own the Axe FX Ultra and the II as well as a POD HD500, correct? Personally, I simply cannot fathom having all those options available and being able to actually use them in a way justifies me owning them. I'm not saying you can't, but does having all those options available to you actually make your life easier? If it does, great.

There's actually socialogical research that suggests that when people have more choices available to them, they actually find themselves less happy and satisfied in the end. One thing is that when you have to make a choice, say out of three options, you can be pretty certain that you didn't like the two you didn't choose. When you make a choice out of 100 options, though, you always have this nagging feeling that you didn't investigate the other 99 possibilities completely. You could have made the wrong choice. You have more regrets.

I know this is a tangent, but I find it a fascinating topic. I guess the thing is that it's amazing to think that most teenagers with a laptop have way more technology at their fingertips than the Abbey Road studio had when the Beatles were recording. Does is mean that those teenagers are producing better music now? I suppose that's up for debate.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2011-08-16 09:17:06

I suppose it really depends on what you're doing.  If you're a home recordist and you're looking for THAT perfect guitar sound for a particular track, then having a lot of options might make sense.  If you're a bedroom player that loves tweaking and investigating new things, then lots of options is your entire existance.

If you're a gigging guitarist playing in bands, the less options you have is probably for the better.  A good amp and a couple of pedals will probably do just fine.  I'm not saying the Axe, POD or anything that gives you tons of options isn't good.  You can certainly narrow that platform down to a couple of usable tones and stick with them if you have disciplined yourself to do so.  But I prefer fewer options for live use.  It takes me very little time to get the tones I want and leaves me free to worry more about the playing, which is what really matters anyway.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by gregr on 2011-08-16 09:17:47

Speak for yourself regarding the limited number of amp models, Phil.  I can name a few effects I'd like to see in Line 6's arsenal as well, in addition to improvements in some that currently exist.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by phil_m on 2011-08-16 10:58:14

My point isn't that there shouldn't be more amps or effects added. I think there's room for both. If people know what they want, and Line 6 doesn't offer it right now, I completely understand where they're coming from.

What I'm talking about is more about people having all these options in front of them while simply having a rather nebulous goal of "good tone" or whatever. I think people can get bewildered. Honestly, I'm not interested in a piece of gear as complex as the Axe-FX simply because I think I would get lost in the process of tweaking and re-tweaking as opposed to actually recording and playing. That may just be me, though.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by litesnsirens on 2011-08-16 11:41:48

So many viewpoints here and many of the issues are subjective.  First off, Phil it's not just you, I like to keep things somewhat simple.  There are times when I like to sit down and tweak some new tones, but for the most part I rely on my bread and butter patches all in one bank on the HD500. 

I can say that if someone gave me an Axe FX unit for free I might switch over from the HD500. But I would never dole out the money for it.  Its not that I'm cheap, if there was no HD500 I might spend the money but it's not $1500 better than the HD500 tone-wise.  I could give a flying you-know-what about the components used to get the tone.  There is a difference in spending money on a hand wired boutique amp and a spending money on a hand built modeler. 

Now that have had the HD long enough to get familiar with it I can get great tones out of it.  It really does sound great.  As far ad the earlier points about getting great sound just out of your fingers, I can't get any sound out of my fingers unless I'm snapping them.  My fingers manipulate the strings on a guitar. If the components in the guitar work then the signal goes to the amp.  My point is simply this; it's a pretty simplistic view to say practice and you will sound good.  I'm sure many on here a fairly accomplished players.  I think most of us ate at a level where we are discerning about our tone.  It's the reason BB King plays an ES 335 while Jeff Beck plays a strat. Or why blues players in general will choose one amp while metal players choose another.  You can't get an over driven sound out of an unplugged guitar no matter how much you practice.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by gregr on 2011-08-16 12:47:22

phil_m wrote:

What I'm talking about is more about people having all these options in front of them while simply having a rather nebulous goal of "good tone" or whatever. I think people can get bewildered. Honestly, I'm not interested in a piece of gear as complex as the Axe-FX simply because I think I would get lost in the process of tweaking and re-tweaking as opposed to actually recording and playing.

I agree with you completely.

For the most part I am very impressed with the attention to detail that was paid by Line 6 on the amp models.  I also really love that they've included deep editing options (though that can also be bewildering).  My only real gripe is that the gain is all lumped under the drive control, when it could easily be split out between using the channel volume control as a master volume and the drive control left for the preamp gain.  The mixer block can handle level differences when it is in the post postion and I doubt it will take much effort to include a second one in the post position when there is one in the pre position without burning an extra effects block.  Furthermore, it would be great if the mixer block could be adjusted via foot pedal, or have levels toggled via the assignable footswitches.  IMO, this is a far better solution then coloring your signal with the boost comp model (again, without having to use an effects block).  Sorry for going off-topic, it's just that this has been on my mind since I first started really digging into the HD500.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by spaceatl on 2011-08-16 13:33:10

ok maybe I am losing my mind but I thought assigning the pedal to the mixer block was a cool way to open up an FX block? I could of sworn I have seen nick post about this more than several times...I have never tried it...maybe I will try that tonight...



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Nick_Mattocks on 2011-08-16 13:42:43

spaceatl wrote:

ok maybe I am losing my mind but I thought assigning the pedal to the mixer block was a cool way to open up an FX block? I could of sworn I have seen nick post about this more than several times...I have never tried it...maybe I will try that tonight...

The assignment of the Expression Pedal to the mixer block has never been an option as far as I'm aware.  I think you are thinking of the trick to assign the Expression Pedal to an amp model's Channel Volume control.   I have talked about that a fair bit in the past but it wasn't my idea - someone else put me on to that, and I think I was more interested in it when I was looking into the Volume Pedal spike issue



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by spaceatl on 2011-08-16 14:40:25

Ahhh....Thanks Nick...I was trying to remember exactly what the trick was...



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by Nightrain28 on 2011-08-26 10:45:40

Lots of interesting views, opinions, ideas, etc. I am not trying to sway anyone one way or another but this has been my experience....

I LOVED my X3 pod and if it didn't break on me I would still but using it.  But it did, and it took over 3 months for anyone to figure out that it would require a major fix that was worth more than buying a new unit.  Plus I still have my XT and Spidervalve and shortboard. So I am by no means a hater of L6 equipment. 

So why did I buy a Ultra? Because I added up all the modelling gear I've boughten over the last 5 years and it was more than an ultra.  I bought a GT-6 ($675), GT-8 ($675), Pod XT ($400), and Pod X3 ($475).  Thats over $2200 I've spent on modellers, and doesn't even included the $1000 I spent on my SV 212.  After adding this up I asked myself, "do I want to keep spending money every year or 2 getting the next best bargain equipment that I have to relearn or do I want to take the full leap and get something I feel will last for a very very long time and has a solid reputation for customer service?!?"  Seriously I just want a piece of equipment that I have confidence in both the longevity of the unit itself and the service from the company. When I had a question I e-mailed Fractal support and the creator himself e-mailed me back within 5 hours.  5 HOURS!!!  Not days, weeks or months. Thats insane.

At this point I still question spending the big money and wonder if I would have been just as happy (personally, not tonelly) with the new HD Bean, but whenever I plug into the ultra I come up with the same answer..... Probably not, but I would have enough money to buy the strat I've been wanting years for  lol. 

What keeps me going back to the ultra is that it's not just the recorded sound but it really is about a "feel" and how it responds to touch.  I can really tell that I've become a sloppy player and the ultra really brings out the small nuances of how my fingers are moving and touching the fretboard which I've never heard.  I find it also responds like mad to the qualities of different guitars. I hooked up my brother's tele and it was a whole new beast once again. The Dr.Z and fender amps sounded so good even my brother was like, "damn, never sell this thing". I also think the ultra really shines in a mix and stands out better than my Pods/GTs ever did.

I feel I have a piece of equipment that will last a very longtime and that will grow with me as I learn more and more how to use it.  It is as deep as you want it, but on the flip side, all you have to do is pick an amp and cabinet sim and you can easily get a very good tone. I have 4 main patches that I love but as I evolve as a player and personal engineer I am slowly making even those sound better and better. 

All in all, I really do like Line 6 equipment, the people, the community, etc etc. but to say one is better than the other, well thats just marketing BS and people trying to validate their chosen brand. They are as different from one another as a Fender strat, a Jackson Strat, a G&L Strat, etc are different from one another. I say pick the one that works best for you but don't say other equipment is crap. They are all amazing and if you compare them to the stuff that was around even just 10 years ago you'd agree we are indeed luck to have any of them. Bring back any of these units 20 years and everyone would fill their pants!

So in the end, was the $1500 I paid for my Ultra worth it over the $400 for the Pod? Hell yeah, for me. For the extra $1100 I love the touch and how it repsonds to other equipment and feel it is the complete package. If it was only for recorded sounds I would have the Pod as they produce a very nice recorded tone. But its not.

Wow, sorry for the novel.... Peace all.



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by silverhead on 2011-08-26 12:41:19

Nightrain28 wrote:

.....

All in all, I really do like Line 6 equipment, the people, the community, etc etc. but to say one is better than the other, well thats just marketing BS and people trying to validate their chosen brand.

---

Very well said, sir. The entire post is excellent but this phrase in particular captures what I think is the most important point. I'm glad you have found the right equipment for you, and I think everyone can do that without trying to impose their choices/beliefs/biases on others.

Rock on!



Re: HD500 Made me sell my Axe-Fx (clip)
by boynigel on 2011-08-31 19:30:26

the thread that refuses to die!




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