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Relay G50 signal dropout
by jacoby75 on 2010-11-22 18:59:23

Hi all,

I purchased a G50 for my bass guitar a few months ago, and have been really impressed with the tone and features of the unit.  I love no longer having to worry about tripping over my cable, and the sound is great as well.

I am having one problem, though, which upon reviewing the boards I see others have experienced.  I have a random, intermittent signal loss.  At the risk of repeating what others have said, here's the problem:  Througout a 4 hour set, it sounds perfect 99% of the time.  However, anywhere from 1x per night to 1x per set, I have a random signal loss for about half a second or a second.  The bass just cuts out, and then comes right back in.  There seems to be no rhyme or reason to when it happens.  I could be as close as 5-6 feet from the receiver, or 30-50 feet away.  It can be with brand new or older batteries.  I also have two different 1/4" to trs cables that I have used with it (the factory one, and one that came with a Shure system), and it happens with both cables.  It doesn't seem to be worse with one cable over the other.  When it happens, I'm not close enough to my amp to see the lights on the receiver to know if any of the green lights went out, or turned red, but by the time I notice the drop out and get back to the amp, the sound is back and the lights appear normal.  It also happens irregardless of what channel I'm on, having experienced it on at least a couple of channels.  Regarding signal strength, I always have 3 full green bars on the receiver.  I don't think I've ever seen it lower, and I've never seen red lights in signal strength.  The bass just cuts out and then comes right back.  I have wiggled the cables on both ends, and it doesn't seem to have anything to do with the connection from either the bass to the transmitter or the receiver to the amp.  It's just a random signal loss.

Ultimately, maybe it's not that big of a deal for the average person, but being a full-time musician in a touring band, it's a pretty big deal to me.  It makes me look really bad when the bass just quits working multiple times per night.  Reliability is very important to me when I'm on the road, so I want to know if there's anything I can do to help this situation.  Again, there seems to be no rhyme or reason as to when it happens that I can discern, and no warning.  It just cuts out and then comes back.

Reading some of the responses in other posts, I can answer some of the questions you may ask:

1.  Yes, I usually have my cell phone in my pocket while I play.

2.  I have the receiver sitting on top of my amp rack, which is an SKB rack case (molded plastic with metal railings) and of course metal components inside, as close as the top rock space.

-are you saying those 2 factors will affect the reliability of the signal?  I saw that question asked a few times but never saw a definitive answer.  If that is the case, would that mean if I leave the cell phone somewhere else and maybe set my receiver on the floor it would help?

3.  I've never been looking at the signal strength bars when it happens, so I don't know if there's a change, but by the time I get back to the amp to check, it shows 3 solid green bars, always.

4.  I can be anywhere from 5 feet to 50 feet away when it happens.

5.  Happens with both fresh or older batteries

6.  I am using the factory power supply.

Thanks a lot,

Rick



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by dboomer on 2010-11-23 09:22:29

Hi Rick

Cell phones do not cause dropouts nor do they cause audio interference to Relay.  Cell phones may get into your instrument or cable and then since they become part of your signal  they would go throught the Relay, but Relay will not pick it up in the radio.

There is always a chance of overloading a receiver if you get the transmitter too close to a receiver.  Usually 5 feet away is a safe distance.  Have you tried setting the transmitter to low power.  I know it seems intautively wrong to set it to low ... but radios always work better if the tranmitter and the antennas do not have too much power.

The green LEDs will go out on the receiver if the signal mutes, so if the green LEDs stay on and the signal drops it is not the radio having the problem.  Usually in this case it is because the jack into the guitar or into the receiver is a bit loose.

The metal rings on your case are only a problem in the antennas come within about 1 inch of them (or actually touch them).  Do you ever find yourself near big metal when you play?  For example leaning up against something like a refridgerator or a metal garage door would cause the system to mute.

Generally having the antennas up in the air works better than on the floor ... as this helps line of sight issues.  Do you splay the antennas at a 45 degree angle?  This helps with polarization.

Is the beltpack on your strap or in your pocket?  It will perform much better on your strap.  Does your strap have any metal in it?

Without being there in person it is hard to diagnose the problem.  It is possible that you have a hardware issue, but not likely.  It is more likely that you have a line of sight issue when the unit mutes.



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by jacoby75 on 2010-11-23 14:32:38

Hi "dboomer,"  Thanks for writing back.

1)  Regarding the cell phone:  I didn't know if there was any connection there between the dropouts and having my cell phone in my pocket.  I just saw that brought up in previous forums.  I didn't know if maybe the cell phone would interfere with the radio transmissions.  I've never heard the phone picked up through the instrument or through the bass.  Just curious.

2)  Regarding overloading the receiver:  That is possible.  I'm sure there are times on smaller stages where I am closer than 5 feet to the receiver.  That may be part of it.  However, it also happens when I am farther away from the receiver.  So, I'm not sure.  I'll keep that in mind, though, and see if I can notice better how close I am to the receiver when it happens.  I have been using it primarily on low power since I got it, so that's not necessarily it.  However, I did wonder if using it on low power was part of the problem.  I thought that maybe it wasn't getting enough signal.  However, like I said, it can also happen when I'm only a few feet away from the receiver on low power.  And I've gone upwards of 50-60 feet away while in low power without having any dropouts.  So I didn't necessarily think it was a problem of the receiver not getting enough signal.

3)  Regarding the green receiver LED's:  Again, I haven't been in a position to see the LED's when it happens, but I'll try to do something about that.  Maybe I'll try to prop the receiver up on an angle so that as soon as I hear it happen I can look back and see the LED's.  But to this point, I haven't noticed any change in the LED's.  I'll keep an eye on that.  I doubt that it's the jack in the bass or the amp, though, because I used the same bass/amp setup for 6-7 months before getting a wireless without ever having this problem.  Also, I think if it was the jack, the dropout would last longer, or maybe there would be some static or crackling instead of just a straight 1 second long periodic drop, but there hasn't been.

4)  The metal rings on my amp:  I do set the receiver on top of my amp towards the front, so it would be close to within 1" of the metal ring around the top.  I'll try setting it farther back so that it's just on the ABS plastic part and not as close to the metal.  As far as being near "big metal," I never lean on metal.  I am sometimes on stages that have metal components (like portable stages that are made up of 8x8 sections with metal frames around each section or something, for example.  But I would assume my shoes isolate me from any ground issues there), or in clubs that have corrugated metal sheeting around the room, but never touching me or my amp, and never that close to the wireless.

5)  Yes, I always have the antennas spread at a 45 degree angle.

6)  The transmitter is always on my strap, and there is no metal on the strap.

I understand it's hard to know exactly what's going on without being there, but thanks for the advice.  I'll look into the above stuff, and if it happens again, I'll let you know.

Thanks

Rick



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by dboomer on 2010-11-23 15:01:17

WRT #4 (and for anybody listening in)

Large metal objects cause reflections of radio waves and distortion of the information in them.  This is a physics issue and affects all radios (not just ours).  I'm guessing someone would have great difficulty playing with any wireless in the boy's locker room.  It's like echo to a sound system.  they just don't mix well.  You don't have to actually touch anything.  If you get close enough to a big enough steel girder you will likely have problems.



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by bob4us on 2010-11-27 03:52:26

Does the two antenna should perform a "diversity" reception just to avoid reflections effects?

I used for 10 years a Nady UHF diversity analog system without any dropout,

Now with G90 I'm entusiast of the sound but I'm experiencing a similar problem on stage, rare but very upsetting: one or two drop outs per session with full battery charge, 3 meter distance.

I'm a little warried because if it's a firmware bug there's no way to upgrade it from an external port.

Bob



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by jacoby75 on 2010-12-10 12:49:34

Just an update.  I did not use the Relay at a couple of gigs on small stages where I would be less than 3-5 feet away most of the time.  However, I have used at 3 or 4 gigs since my last comment, where I had larger stages so I could be further away from the receiver.  I moved the receiver towards the center of the top of my rack case so that it was more than a few inches away from the metal rings on the front and back.  Since doing that, and being farther away, I have not experienced any dropouts.  I'm hoping that might fix the issue.  If it happens again, I'll repost.  Thanks for the help.



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by dboomer on 2010-12-10 14:15:08

Glad it's working.  You can switch to Low Power on the G50 or G90 if you need to be close.  I just read info from one of our competitor's website and they recommend a 10 foot minimum distance.

Working with radios is a bit like working with speakers.  They may sound great at 5 or 10 feet, but not so pleasant if you stick your ear right up to one.



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by jacoby75 on 2011-02-01 14:34:22

Hi D Boomer, or to whom it may concern, if you are not the one to get this. : ) I continue to have issues with my relay wireless.  Same problem.  I had a gig or two where it didn't drop out and I got cocky.  However, it is happening again, and the last gig was the worst.  I had to have dropped at least 2-3 times in the same gig.  I was at least 10 feet away from the receiver, and everything else was the same.  This has become really frustrating.  The wireless system should just work.  I feel that this device is completely unreliable.  I shouldn't have to worry about things like is there metal in the room, or are people using laptops, or amy I overloading the receiver.  With the professional level that I'm playing at, I cannot afford to have my signal keep cutting out.  It makes me look like I'm making mistakes or like I stop playing for a second.  I use it on low power all of the time, and only use it on gigs now where I can be at least 8-10 feet away from my amp.  However, it continues to drop out.  Is there anything you can do for it if I send it in?  I seem to not be the only person having this issue, so there must be something going on here.  In all of the time I've had it (I use it at least 1x/weekend for the past 8-10 months, I could count on one hand the number of shows in which it hasn't dropped a signal.  And there is no rhyme or reason to it.  It might drop when I'm closer to the amp, when I'm 20 feet away or 50 feet away . . . indoors or outdoors . . . passive or active basses.  It just keeps failing on me.  What can we do about this?  The good tone is not worth it if I'm constantly cutting out. Thanks Rick



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by dboomer on 2011-02-02 08:35:42

You should call our service department and get the hardware checked out ... 818.575.3600



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by jacoby75 on 2011-02-02 09:08:16

Will do.  Thanks for getting back with me.



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by cyberwally2000 on 2011-02-05 11:50:51

Hi my name is Walt, and  I just purchased a Relay G50 unit.  I must say that at first I was quite impressed with the sound but alas I'm also experiencing random signal drop out.  I've used it with different guitars and amps and it happens when you least expect it.   In the manual  line 6 talks about putting power on High and checking that the unit is in the lock mode, did this but still have random dropouts less then before I must admit.  Any ideas? Take care.



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by jacoby75 on 2011-02-05 12:13:55

Hey Walt,

Seems to be a common problem.  I see no rhyme or reason to when, how, or why the dropouts happen.  I called customer service a couple of days ago and got an RMA # to send it in to be checked out.  Hopefully they'll be able to figure out what's going on.

Rick



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by cyberwally2000 on 2011-02-05 14:16:41

Hey Rick , thanks for your quick reply.  Please let me know if there is any info on their part to solve this problem.  By the way did you try locking your system, this is what I read on the troubleshooting section of the manual.  Yet still this doesn't convince me, let's see what Line 6 comes up.  Thanks again ,  Walt



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by jacoby75 on 2011-02-05 14:27:13

No prob.  I'll keep you posted.  I never tried locking the transmitter.  I'm not entirely sure how that would help.  Looks like that just makes it so you can't make any changes to the transmitter while in use, like changing the channel or power setting accidentally or something.



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by rsto10 on 2011-02-05 18:51:12

I also have a G50 with signal dropout.  Have tried everything you have listed above and nothing makes it better.  Originally, I was blaming it on my Line6 amp, but after playing a few gigs with a cable (and feeling like a dog on a leash) I had no dropouts.  Please keep us posted on what you find out.  I think I'll be sending mine in soon as well.



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by cyberwally2000 on 2011-02-06 05:24:29

As I see it it seems that this product was not actually designed the way it should have been.  I also have normal analog wireless and had no problem whatsoever.  The question is , will Line6 provide a sufficient accurate answer to resolve this problem, will they need the unit to go back to the factory or are we going to get our money back....mind you guys that I bought this unit in Italy so if there is a problem it's world wide,,,,,keep in touch.  Walt



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by adamdegraff on 2011-02-07 08:20:35

Hey, I was about to post a problem/question when I saw your post. I am using the G50 in a professional situation. Actually, we own six of them. Recently bought 4 new units. A whopping 50% of them (2 units) have a serious problem that "appears" to be signal drop out. However, it is NOT a problem with the signal. It is, in fact, a problem with the main "out" port. I sent my first unit back to Amazon where I bought it. They sent me a second unit. Worked at first, but SAME problem cropped up. Since I have 6 of these units, I was able to do some extensive testing. Here is what I found. Sound starts to chatter and become intermittent. If you take your output 1/4 inch plug and move it to the aux/tuner out, I bet it will work perfectly. This has been the case for me both times. I had the luxury of many units to test with. At first I was sure it was a signal issue. But that problem was easy to eliminate. As a last ditch attempt, I switched the output and it just worked. Now, this is a HUGE problem for me. Can I trust this gear in a pro setting where I am being pad considerable amounts of money to perform? I'm not sure. I'd love for Line 6 to get in touch with me and let me know if this gear is trustworthy or not.

Let me know if your unit is the same as mine. I, of course, will just continue returning the unit to Amazon until I get one that works. Sounds like you don't have that luxury.

Good luck.



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by jacoby75 on 2011-02-07 08:47:47

Hey Adam,

Wow.  Thanks for the post.  I wonder if that is the same issue I was having.  Hopefully when the techs get my unit they'll check the post history and see this and follow up.  I never tried the tuner out because I assumed it might be more of a full range output and have a different tone or signal strength than the main out.  Just an assumption on my part, based on nothing in reality, so I'm sure I was wrong about that.  I think that I was thinking that because of a preamp I had that had a tuner out but said not to use it for a main out becuase it had a different kind of buffer or something and wouldn't sound the same.  Hopefully this is something they can fix.  I never would have thought to try the tuner out, so I'm glad you posted this.  Thanks.  I'll be sure to follow up on the forum with what they tell me.

Thanks



Performance issues - Self Check
by dboomer on 2011-02-07 09:59:05

For anyone reading ...

We have 10's of thousands of Relay units operating all over the world with relatively few issues.  That said there will always be a few per thousand that do have issues.  Every single units is performance tested before it leaves the factory but things can sometimes happen unexpectedly.

When you have a dropout issues there are two possible problems.  One is you could have a hardware failure ... in which case you will need to return the unit (all pieces) and get it checked out.  If you think this is your problem you should call our service dept (US customers) 818.575.3600.  If you bought the unit outside you will need to follow the warranty instructions packed with the units.

More often a dropout will be caused by local conditions.  We need to know an awful lot of details to be able to make suggestions here.  But to avoid unnecessarily sending the unit in for repair your best bet would be to try the system in another location (your home for instance) with nothing else connected to see if the problem persists.  Use just your guitar into the Relay and then into your amp with no other effects.  Also make sure that you are using the factory supplied power supply.  If under these conditions you continue to get dropouts then it is much more likely to be a hardware issue and needing repair.



Re: Performance issues - Self Check
by adamdegraff on 2011-02-07 10:06:09

Just so we are clear, I WAS able to make it work. All it took was me switching the output from the main to the aux. Fixed it every time. And, on both units. Seems like a crazy coincidence.

Is the G90 a more reliable unit? (The rack mount one?)

Thanks,

Adam



Re: Performance issues - Self Check
by dboomer on 2011-02-07 11:26:28

Hi Adam

So the difference between the tuner output and the main output is that the main output is muted by the "mute" switch on the transmitters.  In your case it sounds like maybe that could be your problem.  Did you use a single transmitter to test out all the receivers or did you use all 4 transmitters.  I guess I'm asking if it is possible that one of the transmitters has an issue with the mute switch ... or if somehow maybe the rubber button might be sticking?  Did the main outs ever come back to working normally ... or ... are they always messed up?

In your case it looks like the radio section is not an issue ... which I'm not sure about with some other users on this thread.

The G90 is no more or less reliable and is not much different than the G50 with the exception of the obvious functional differences (antenna options, A/B switching, extra cable models)



Re: Performance issues - Self Check
by cyberwally2000 on 2011-02-07 12:40:48

First of all I wish to thanks all of you people for your ideas in solving this issue and of course dboomer of Line 6 in particular.  Well the idea of the cable is interesting, the possability of getting  a loose fit on the jack in the unit could be a potential cause nevertheless a faulty soldered cable as well, Using the tuner output sounds pretty good I guess the only way to find out is to test it.  But what I really can't understad is how is it possible that this unit has a common problem with so many individuals?  I mean if they were all tested before leaving the factory they should be all working 100%.  How really is important RF relfections, maybe the unit is very sensible to this kind of situation, I mean since here we are dealing with digital signals could this be a main issue with the G50?   Well guys maybe if we all think together we'll get an answer to this puzze,  Walt



Re: Performance issues - Self Check
by adamdegraff on 2011-02-07 13:36:37

Hey Dboomer,

you said:

So the difference between the tuner output and the main output is that the main output is muted by the "mute" switch on the transmitters.  In your case it sounds like maybe that could be your problem.  Did you use a single transmitter to test out all the receivers or did you use all 4 transmitters.  I guess I'm asking if it is possible that one of the transmitters has an issue with the mute switch ... or if somehow maybe the rubber button might be sticking?  Did the main outs ever come back to working normally ... or ... are they always messed up?

In your case it looks like the radio section is not an issue ... which I'm not sure about with some other users on this thread.

The G90 is no more or less reliable and is not much different than the G50 with the exception of the obvious functional differences (antenna options, A/B switching, extra cable model

Ok, so, I have tired the base unit with multiple transmitters. Same issue. Mute on or off. I've tried every single permutation possible. So here is what I'm getting, just to be clear. No matter which transmitter I use (we have 6).

Going directly from the the receiver to the mixer, if I output from the main, I get either NO sound, or garbled sound. If I switch the output to the tuner/aux it works. Same is true with any and ALL transmitters. I also have been trying different channels. No difference. I have tried pairing with other receivers and, when paired with a functioning receiver, it works fine from the main output.

I have owned 6 of these. 2 have been defective. I suppose I just got unlucky twice, but that withstanding, 33% of my receivers are defective. If you want to call me, send me a private email to adam@TheDuelingFiddlers.com and we can set up a time.  Kind of alarming.

Please get in touch with me ASAP so we can figure this out. I can just return it all to Amazon, but I'd like to keep using the G50 if we can figure this stuff out. I'm sure there is a possibility that I'm doing something wrong... though I doubt it at this point.

Thanks,

Adam



Re: Performance issues - Self Check
by ricksox on 2011-02-07 14:38:32

@adamdegraff,

I created a support ticket for you so we can resolve this issue. Please respond to the ticket. Thanks.

Q: What is a support ticket?

A: A support ticket allows you to directly correspond with a Line 6 Support Representative. An email will be sent to you from Line 6 containing a link if a Line 6 support representative determines that a ticket is necessary to troubleshoot your issue. Please follow the link in the email to view your open ticket to work one on one with Line 6 Support.

Please note: Sometimes support tickets will be filtered to spam and junk folders. If you did not receive an email from us indicating that a ticket has been created, please make sure to check those folders in your email host.

http://line6.com/account/tickets/view/

Line6Miller



Re: Performance issues - Self Check
by cyberwally2000 on 2011-02-07 14:53:28

Hi Miller, can you create a support ticket for me.  I've purchased a Line 6 Relay G50 in Italy where I live and I'm getting randomly a signal dropout but it may occurr ounce or twice in an hr without any notice, it sounds as if there is a very short interruption in the signal.  Could it be RF reflections or hardware any ideas how to figure it out? Thanks

Walt



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by rsto10 on 2011-02-08 14:40:49

I just heard from my local Line 6 dealer that contacted Line 6 on my behalf. They said there was a bad manufacturing run of G50's and they require a firmware update. This is something that Line 6 has to do, so effected units must be sent in for service or exchanged (if your store will allow) for a newer unit with updated firmware. If this is the case, I hope this info saves you all some headaches.



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by dboomer on 2011-02-09 10:14:51

I just noticed that I did not ask in this thread of everyone having any problems if they are using the factory supplied power supply or are they using some other pedalboard type supply.  You must be able to supply a full 300ma or better to a Relay G50 to operate properly.

With analog devices if you supplied a little less than full power your device would likely work but maybe at a slightly diminished capacity. So in the case of an alalog wireless your sound would get "ratty" before it dropped out and you would know to check it.  The thing about digital products is they go from 100% working to zero in one step with no warning.  If the Relay units do not receive  the proper power they need they will work fine fo awhile but will begin to lose the ability to fight off outside interference problems and eventually shut off/dropout.



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by hoss192 on 2011-02-17 03:25:48

Having the same problem as everyone else here, just simply disappointed with this product. I play professionally, and I cannot rely on a wireless that cuts out 2-3 times per show, just really embarrassing when it happens during a solo. I will agree the tone is perfect, just like having a cable, but the intermittent signal loss is something a professional band just cannot have. Would Brad Paisley go on with this? Dont think so. I've tried everything to make this stop, and it seems too many people are having this problem, it is time to look elsewhere for something more reliable



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by rsto10 on 2011-02-17 05:24:48

Repost: I just heard from my local Line 6 dealer that contacted Line 6 on my  behalf. They said there was a bad manufacturing run of G50's and they  require a firmware update. This is something that Line 6 has to do, so  effected units must be sent in for service or exchanged (if your store  will allow) for a newer unit with updated firmware. If this is the case,  I hope this info saves you all some headaches.

Update:  I exchanged my defective unit for one that was newer (with the updated firmware) and have had zero problems since.  The new one sounds awesome and there's no dropouts.  If you're having the brief, random dropouts, it indeed seems to be a firmware issue related to a particular manufacturing run.  Send it in or exchange and you should be good to go.



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by bobwander on 2011-03-04 14:39:39

Hello, Yesterday I bought a Relay 30 and I am experiencing exactly the same problems as mentioned here. New hardware, new batteries and drop outs that occurs at really bad moments (during a solo) They last for about 5 - 10 seconds, which is unacceptable. I am a professional guitar player and cannot afford these kind of drop outs! What can I do? The shop I bought it is 200 km from my place, so it is not easy to go there and have it looked after. It's really a pity because the sound is good. The next gigs I will have to play with my good old wireless system though, because that one is really reliable!



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by gcdef on 2011-03-14 06:33:52

Add me to the list of people getting dropouts from this thing.  I "upgraded" from the XDS-95 because it would drop out all the time too.  While the G50 isn't as bad in that the dropouts only last for a second or so, it still does it every few minutes.  This is completely unacceptable in a $400 product designed for stage use.  The fact that both Line 6 wireless products I've used are incapable of sustaining a signal for more than a few minutes makes me think they're not ready for prime time yet. 



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by dboomer on 2011-03-14 12:20:56

There are multiple 10's of thousands of these radios working with great results out in the world.  Any radio will dropout if the right conditions happen.

Please take a look at the new troubleshooting FAQ in our documents section ...  http://line6.com/community/docs/DOC-2217 for ideas to remedy your situation.



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by jacoby75 on 2011-03-14 12:26:07

For what it's worth, I sent the unit in for repair.  They were unable to replicate the dropouts, so they just replaced the receiver.  I tried it at a gig last Friday with no drop outs at all.  Hopefully it will stay that way.  But I know no wireless unit is problem-free.  If it persists, I'll repost to let you know.  If nothing else, I was quite pleased with how quickly they got to the unit and sent it back to me.  Great customer service.  Thanks.



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by gcdef on 2011-03-14 12:28:13

I'll try as much of that as applies.  Your support guy suggested I try different channels too, but it's hard to experiment on stage.  I'm glad you have lots of them working, but of all the wireless devices I've been around, I've never seen any that drop like the XDS and G50.  Gear designed for live use shouldn't be tempremental.



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by dboomer on 2011-03-14 13:00:01

You need to determine whether you have a hardware issue or a local condition issue.  If it turns out to be hardware you won't be able to solve it yourself.  Can you possible try another unit?

Interesting thing with Relay ... because it is digital it gives no warning audible when it mutes.  Analog systems would have gotten noisy, distorted or both before they drop out.  It makes Relay feel more severe ... but in reality it's actually holding on much longer than an analog system.  So comparatively, analog is much more temperamental.



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by gcdef on 2011-03-14 13:18:46

I don't have another unit I can try. I bought it from a dealer in another state, so an exchange isn't really practical.  Since it's happened of 4 or 5 places now, I doubt it's a location issue.



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by dboomer on 2011-03-14 13:29:48

Then it sounds like you could have a hardware issue.  Please call our service department ... 818.575.3600



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by gcdef on 2011-03-14 13:35:16

I did.  Talked to Hugh I think he said his name was.  As far as I got with him was try another channel.



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by dboomer on 2011-03-14 15:28:36

Just request warranty repair.



Re: Performance issues - Self Check
by geoffreyirvin on 2011-04-29 21:51:26

Going directly from the the receiver to the mixer, if I output from the main, I get either NO sound, or garbled sound. If I switch the output to the tuner/aux it works. Same is true with any and ALL transmitters. I also have been trying different channels. No difference. I have tried pairing with other receivers and, when paired with a functioning receiver, it works fine from the main output.

Hi Adam,

              just wondering about the simple things... is the phantom power switched on on any of the mixer inputs?

Dboomer, I am a big fan of the G50, but do get the odd drop out now and then due to line of sight issues, walking/running through the crowd and stuff. Are the antenna's available for the G90 etc adaptable to the G50?

If not, will Line 6 think about something for it? A lot of us aren't running racks and just want to elevate the antenna's while powering the receiver from the pedal board.

Cheers for the forum.



Re: Performance issues - Self Check
by dboomer on 2011-04-30 08:49:58

Hello Geoffery

1) Sounds like you have a receiver that has a failed output.  Please call our service department and get it taken care of.  818.575.3600

2) I don't think pahntom is an issue because you generally can't get phantom power up into a 1/4" jack (it has to be balanced)

3)  You could use a pair of the rubber duckie antennas that come with the G90/V70.  These are 1/2 wave type which means that they will work when not connected to the chassis, and they have a little more gain.  You could probably use 6-10 feet of RG58 antenna cable (BNC/BNC) and get one or both antennas up a bit.  If you try to use longer cable than this there will be too much loss and it will require an antenna amp so the shorter the better.



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by dbun on 2011-07-21 18:30:11

rsto10 wrote:

I just heard from my local Line 6 dealer that contacted Line 6 on my behalf. They said there was a bad manufacturing run of G50's and they require a firmware update. This is something that Line 6 has to do, so effected units must be sent in for service or exchanged (if your store will allow) for a newer unit with updated firmware. If this is the case, I hope this info saves you all some headaches.

I know this is an old thread, however:

How do you know what firmware your G50 is running??

The reason I ask is because I have a G30 that plays up at a certain venue. The only real difference between this venue and the other venues I play at is the high level of wireless activity from IEM packs, mics etc.

I just purchased a G50 in the hopes that it will work better (in case the G30 had a hardware fault) but I was wanting to upgrade anyway for the added range and metal construction. It would be handy to compare them side by side in determining whether or not it is a hardware fault or just a situation where the Relay units can't cope.

I'm guessing that since it is a new purchase that it should be from the latest batch with the most up to date firmware, however, I would just like to be sure.



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by jothhunt on 2011-08-01 22:18:21

i have gone through 3 G50 Relay systems.

the first 2 i bought in USA, had minor dropouts, i put up with it.

12 months later i bought another here in Australia. SAME THING!

I notice the drop outs most when i am in a bigger venue, with more lighting (wireless)..

I do keep my eye on the signal meter and i see all 3 green bars turn off, then back on..

is it likely that by chance i have ended up with 3 faulty units?



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by dbun on 2011-08-01 22:39:33

It would seem unlikely that you could end up with 3 faulty units. Surely the failure rate couldn't be that bad.

Are you powering the receiver with the supplied power supplies? If not, is the power supply you are using capable of delivering enough juice to the receiver?

What else do you have running at the same time? You mentioned lighting; what about IEM packs, wireless mics etc?

Does the G50 Relay work perfectly anywhere, or does it drop out all the time, just to varying degrees?

Where is the G50 receiver placed? Is it sitting on top of anything metal? Metal reflects the RF in strange ways that can cause issues.

How far away are you from the receiver? If you are close to the receiver, try changing the transmitter to 'low power' mode. You should still be able to cover the whole stage in terms of range.

My G30 is perfectly fine everywhere except the main auditorium at church, where we run lots of wireless mics and IEM packs. There is a fair bit of lighting too, but the lighting is not controlled wirelessly, so I don't think would cause any issues. It seems we are experiencing similar issues in a similar environment.



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by dboomer on 2011-08-02 18:38:27

Yep ... first big question is are you using the factory power supply?



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by swilmot on 2011-11-09 12:52:31

I have been having this issue as well, but with one extra symptom. Every few minutes I will get a very loud click. I tried changing bands and setup, but the click persists. Just one pop every 5 minutes or so, sometimes even less than that.



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by dboomer on 2011-11-10 07:21:20

Guys ... it takes a lot of input to diagnose problems when you cannot see the situation first hand.  There are about a dozen questions in the "troubleshooting guide" in the documents section.  I need the answwers to ALL of those questions to provide much help.



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by erictham on 2011-12-11 01:03:05

Hi guys at Line6,

I use to live in the US but I'm now in a small country in South East Asia called Malaysia. Love line 6 products, effects, amps, recording equipments, etc.

I received in the mail a couple of days ago a unit of the G50 that I bought from an authorized dealer here. I have to say that the build quaity is amazing, but as soon as I integrated it with the rest of the pedals on my board & started playing, I noticed signal dropouts!! So frequent (every 30 seconds or so) that it becomes so unbearable!! I tried changing the output from the main to the aux, it seemed to improve the signal dropout... but it still occurs.

I also tried it in a small rehearsal studio, about 18' x 18', signal seems to be more consistent, but still drops out. 

I actually purchased this unit as my band was going to play at a big arena (audience of 15,000). I brought the G50 along for the sound-check session a day before the gig and found that signal drop-out became much much worse... My signal drops every 3 seconds or so! I tried 24 combinations (every channel with low and high power) and I still cannot improve the situation. So, I sadly went back to the leash (but still rocked it!)

This is NOT what I paid US$400 for!! I'm going back to the store tomorrow either to get it fixed, get a replacement unit, or get my money back.

I have read the Signal Dropout FAQ at http://line6.com/support/docs/DOC-2217">http://line6.com/support/docs/DOC-2217">http://line6.com/support/docs/DOC-2217 & I am pretty sure that I have taken every reasonable step to make the transmitter and receiver work at their best.

PLEASE HELP ME! This is the first time I am not satisfied with my Line 6 product purchase!



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by dboomer on 2011-12-11 08:23:25

When it drops out, do the RF LEDs on the receiver go to off? red?  Are you using the factory power supply?

Switching the output from main to aux has no bearing on RF dropouts as there is only one radio ... it just has two buffered outputs.



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by erictham on 2011-12-11 16:18:08

Yes, when it drops out, the RF LEDs first turn RED, then off, then back to green (all 3 LEDs).

I am using the factory power supply that came with the set (DC-1G). 

FYI - I mounted the receiver on my pedal train pro (large board, metal frame, 16" x 32" if I don't rmbr wrongly).

---------

Let me also answer the other questions that you may have for me:

Have you tried a set of fresh batteries?

I have tried 2 different sets of NEW batteries, the drop out persists.

Are your antennas connected firmly and splayed at 90 degrees (G50, G90)?

Yes they are connected firmly at 90 degrees.

Does this happen in all venues or just one/some?

It has happened at 4 venues (big and small) that I tried using the G50 (and it is really unacceptable...)

Have you tried it with more than one instrument?  More than one amplifier?

I tried it with 4 different amps and 2 guitars. The droup out persists.

Do you have clear line of sight?

Yes!! (I tried from 3 feet away to about 50 feet away) Doesn't seem to help improve the drop out.

Are other XD-Vs or Relays operating on the same channel

Although I'm not exactly sure, I don't think so. But in the most extreme condition that I tested the unit at (a stadium), the engineers confirmed that none of the wireless mics operate at 2.4GHz.

Do you have the receiver’s antennas near any intentional transmitters such as In-Ear Monitors, etc?

No. I don't have any other wireless receivers near me (and I don't sing, so there are no wireless mics around me either).

Is the transmitter in your pocket?

It was on my strap, quite near the knob.

Is the mute function engaged?

Obviously not. And I also used the LOCK function to ensure that I don't accidently hit the mute button.

---------

Please do let me know if you have any other questions. I REALLY REALLY NEED HELP HERE!

Thanks!!



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by dboomer on 2011-12-11 20:19:37

Thanks ... having all the answwers to the questions really helps.  Unfortunately everything looks to be correct on your part and my best suggestion would be to send us the systems to bench check.  Please use the "contact us" link at the bottom of the page so we can get on them.



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by erictham on 2011-12-11 21:40:13

Just came back from the official Line6 distributor's outlet here in Malaysia. They actually tested the unit but could not replicate the signal dropout in their store... strange. They actually wanted to replace the whole set, but didn't have any stock at that moment. However, they did have a few new transmitters around & decided to replace that first & have me test it out to see if it would solve the problem. I'll check it out tonite when I get home.Will report back here again. 

BTW, the official youtube video on the G50 says that it is almost impossible for anything to interfere with the digitaly encoded signal; does this still hold true when the G50 is operating on a stage in a stadium that can accomodate 60,000 people? (plus, with at least 8 - 10 wireless mics around, wifi, radio, etc) The sound engineers told me that it is likely that inteference is causing the signal dropout...  

I know for a fact that no wireless units are problem-free, but if my replacement transmitter unit still gives me signal dropouts in the conditions i meantioned earlier, can I conclude that the replacement unit is also faulty?

Thanks a lot for the earlier quick response! :-) 



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by dboomer on 2011-12-12 06:34:18

Just to clarify about interference from our XD-V FAQ...  This applys to XD-V and Relay systems

Since the XD-V wireless system is digital, it is able to “intelligently” ignore all signals that are not specifically intended for it. As a result, no audible interference can be generated due to other RF signals occurring simultaneously with the XD-V RF signals. Additionally, the XD-V system utilizes a frequency diversity system in which four different RF frequencies are transmitted for each single audio channel. Only if there are errors or loss of signal on all four RF frequencies within a single transmission packet will an XD-V system mute. Loss of RF signal can be the result of trying to function at too great a distance, having unintentional transmitters too close to a receiver (near/far), or a significant amount of close-by RF signals within the same 2.4GHz range (Wi-Fi, microwave ovens, etc.).  In all cases, the symptoms will be the same: reduction of RF LEDs on the front panel that indicate usable RF signal strength, followed by the audio signal muting.  Once good enough RF signal is received again, the signal will unmute.

Put simply, all forms of potential interference for the XD-V system will have the net effect of reducing the total usable distance for the system. If your application does not require maximum range, then typically little concern about other radio signals is required. If you intend to use your system at a distance, it is recommended that you “walk test” your system in advance of an event to verify that sufficient RF signal is available to avoid mutes from occurring over the entire desired range.



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by erictham on 2011-12-12 16:00:26

I tested out the replacement transmitter at home, seems ok, not getting anymore dropouts. I almost flatted a new set of batteries and the signal is still going strong and steady (even when there is no line-of-sight). Good sign!

  

Going to test it in a larger hall this weekend, hopefully there will be no more signal dropouts.



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by jtinnel on 2012-02-25 22:01:49

This seems like beating on a dead horse, but, recently a very large church that I play guitar at bought 3 of these units and all 3 of us are experiencing this issue.  Obviously, I noticed it myself first and was annoyed, but when I talked with the other 2 using the G50, we were all experiencing the same thing.  The signal will randomly drop out, and come back before we can think too much.  There is a LOT of wireless going on in the room, including wifi.  I feel like there is no way around dealing with the issue because we play for around 50K plus every weekend.  Has anyone found a solution?  I'm going to try the aux out tomorrow, but if that doesn't work, I'll have to move on.



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by dboomer on 2012-02-26 09:31:40

Can you please send me the answers to the questions I posed above so I can make suggestions.  Other wireless in the room is usually not the cause of dropouts unless it is very near to the receiver's antennas as compared to the distance you are away with the transmitters.

The aux out will make no difference if the problem is that you are experiencing RF dropouts.



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by jtinnel on 2012-02-26 10:34:21

Sure.  I'm sorry I didn't answer them in my last post.

 

Have you tried a set of fresh batteries?

Yes.  We use fresh batteries pretty much every time we play

 

Are your antennas connected firmly and splayed at 90 degrees (G50, G90)?

Yes.  We consistently check connections to make sure we're not messing it up.

 

Does this happen in all venues or just one/some?

I've only tried it in this building, but I'll plan on taking it home to try it there.

 

Have you tried it with more than one instrument?  More than one amplifier?

Yes.  We use it for 2 guitars and a bass and personally, I've used multiple guitars and 2 different amps.

 

Do you have clear line of sight?

Yes.  I have it next to my pedalboard right in front of me and our bass player has it on a drum riser about 15-20 feet behind him.

 

Are other XD-Vs or Relays operating on the same channel?

No, we've all picked different channels so that we don't overlap.

Do you have the receiver’s antennas near any intentional transmitters such as In-Ear Monitors, etc?

I do use in-ear monitors, but I try to keep the transmitters as far apart as I can on me.  The ears are in my back left pocket and the relay is on my guitar strap on the right side of me.  They're about 1 foot apart.

 

Is the transmitter in your pocket?

No, it's kept on my guitar strap.

 

Is the mute function engaged?

No, we all lock the packs to make sure we don't accidentally hit mute.



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by dboomer on 2012-02-27 08:32:00

My concern is where your in-ear transmitter physically is in relationship to the antennas on your Relay. 

For a quick check see if the problem goes away if the in-ear transmitter is turned off.  Transmitting and receiving antennas usually need to be about 6 feet apart ... even further if you are using paddles on either.



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by GD2012 on 2012-03-20 00:11:15

Hi,

I'm the FOH engineer for a Celtic band and the fiddle player has been using the g50 for the last year or so and the issue we've been having with it isn't really a drop out one. We are experiencing a low pass sweeping through kind of effect every so often where for a few seconds at the time, we lose all top end on the instrument. The occurrence varies from venue to venue. Sometimes as much as 5 or 6 times per song. We play mainly soft seater venues so the listeners are more alert to sound issues such as this. This is the only wireless unit being used on the show. The only interference that i can see being a problem is wi-fi. What can be done to fix this problem? We have tried everything posted in this forum with no positive results. I have to say that even though we were really impressed with the tone quality of the unit, this problem renders this product useless and pretty much unusable for us. Thank you in advance for any help!



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by dboomer on 2012-03-20 07:44:22

Interference never causes a change to audio quality.  If a Relay fails it just mutes to silence.

If the problem you are describing is from the Relay then there must be a hardware issue.  You should send it in for service.



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by DLR4VH on 2012-03-22 20:20:07

My G50 also has drop outs. I was on stage just last week and I was probably 10 feet away from the receiver, which is in my pedal board, and I had about a second of drop out twice. Have no clue why it occured. Come on Line 6 let's get this corrected as it's very apparent there's a real issue here. (BTW, I also have issues with the transmitter breaking where the chord seeds into the unit, which I've started another thread in hopes to get this fixed). Thank you!

-Derek

www.fanhalen.net



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by GD2012 on 2012-03-23 18:04:29

Can you pls let me know where I could send an audio file of our issue so you can hear it. We have recorded 3 different instruments coming right out of the g50 receiver straight into the computer and all 3 have done the same thing. You actually hear a quick cutting off at the tail end of that tone change on a few of them.

Thank you.



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by dboomer on 2012-03-24 09:30:47

You can send it to me ... dboomer@line6.com

In order to be helpful I need to get uncompressed wav files.  I need to get BOTH the signal theough the Relay as well as the signal run direct so I can compare.  Use a Y cord out of your instrument and run one channel direct and one through the relay.  You must be very careful not to experience any clipping of the inputs and the recorded signal (fron both sources) must no have any EQ or effects applied.



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by markstarnes on 2012-04-12 06:07:43

I'm not having RF drop out issues since the LED's stay green and the 1 signal indicator comes on when hitting my guitar strings. What I have a problem with is loosing output guitar signal strength. Very weird and it's intermittant and most certainly is room related since I can't repeat this at home. I play at a church a few times a month and have had no issues for the past 18 months or so until about 2 weeks ago. we all use IEM and have been for years. Seems like if I get there early enough to setup before something else is "turned on" everything is fine. This past Sunday we played a set for the first service and when I went back up for the second service my battery low indicator was on so I changed batteries and screwed up my signal strength and had to use a cable to finish the service.

I set up Wednesday for practice around lunch time (I was going to be late for practice that night) and left with signal strenght perfect and tuned off the transmitter to save battery. When I got there at 7:15 pm and turned on the pack...loss of signal strenth. If I had to guess its probably 70-80 precent signal loss. I switched to a cable for the rest of the night. Took my crap home and no problems there.

Any ideas???

Seems like there is something that is competing for the signal on a first come first served basis. I've tried all 12 channels with no luck. Once it happens, it seems un fixable for the day.

Thanks in advance!

Mark Starnes



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by dboomer on 2012-04-12 10:28:53

"What I have a problem with is loosing output guitar signal strength"

This kind of a problem is not related to RF signal strength.  With a digital signal it's all 1's and 0's and strength, noise and distortion don't have any effect of the audio quality or level.

Loss of output level would be an analog issue that is either cause by a hardware failure or an interface problem (or by some other gear in the audio chain).  If you believe that the Relay is at fault you should use the "contact us" at the bottom of the page for service.



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by dboomer on 2012-04-12 10:32:00

"My G50 also has drop outs. .... Have no clue why it occured."

There are lots of reasons this can happen.  Have you gone through all the trouble shooting sets in the FAQ on the documents page?  That would be a starting point.



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by gcdef on 2012-04-12 10:54:40

At some point Don, are you ever going to say to yourself, "gee maybe there's a problem with these things that we need to be figuring out", or are you just going to keep shuffling the blame off on the users?

I've been playing with wireless for a decade now, and the only units I've ever had dropouts with were the Line 6.  Not once with another brand, every few minutes with yours.  Three of them.  Never seen a dropout from anybody else in my bands either. 



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by brady11 on 2012-05-20 12:33:39

Hi guys, I'm having this problem too, with my G90.

I bought it in the summer of 2010, although it was not used until this year (the nature of being in between bands and then jamming in a small room kept me from busting it out), so my warranty has expired.

I've already spent $400USD replacing transmittor(s) (twice) in hope of fixing the problem.

I am going to try using the input through the tuner jack and see if that helps, thanks for the suggestion @adamdegraff

@DRL4VH I've seen this problem too, its happened to everyone I've seen or talked to regarding the Relay system.

My band runs a very physical set (lots of headbanging, running, jumping up and down), and my signal cuts out for roughly 5 or more seconds almost every time I move. Even if I remain totally still (play sitting) the signal goes out every few notes. So I am down to the conclusion that it is the cable that is fried and simply needs replacement to prevent shorting out.

I am completely choked up that after spending over $1000 on this wireless system, it is so unreliable, with very little help or suggestion as to what is wrong... I mean the signal dropout FAQ is quite obvious, and I am doing everything right according to it.

As an aside, at a gig last night, 3 musicians (besides myself) experienced the signals of their GX0 (various G relay systems) cutting out at various periods. This may be a venue issue, although I have been fighting with this problem at about 8 different locations so far.

I think the part quality of these units needs to be stepped up from the cheap plastic, for the price we musicians are paying. I would also be very happy if I could get some actual support that does not involve simply looking at a blatantly obvious FAQ sheet, or throwing more money at Line6 to have my device sent there and analyzed / repaired / etc. Maybe a mass recall is in order?



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by dboomer on 2012-05-20 13:00:59

The tuner output is identical to the main output except that it is not "mutable" from the switch on the transmitter so if there is any difference here then you have some electrical failure that needs repair.

Sounds like your problems may arise from mechanical shaking and than you may need to find a way to provide additional security at both ends of the input cable.  Pro installers have a little trick that I've found to work well with any cable that is subject to some stress.  Putting a loop in the cable and securing it loosly with a small cable tie will add some additional strain relief.

I would also recommend updating to the newest V2.x firmware as here have been improvements made since 2010 versions.



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by bigdaddysound on 2012-05-27 16:53:38

I am the audio engineer in this venue. The ear pack should not be an issue as it is worn on the opposite side of the body. As long as antennas are a wave length apart of more than there shouldn't be any issues. I run 46 other wireless units in the room at one time that are coordinated by a professional company. We have no issues between any of our wireless other than the Line6 digital units. I can put a shure or sennheiser beltpack in the same place and never have an issue. It leads me to believe that there are issues with these units. I have taken them and just plugged them into the PA system with no other wireless on in the room and with hear the unit drop out making a pretty loud clicking sound. Best as I can describe it. I have also taken them to various buildings on the campus with the same results. All three units are doing it and it is not predictable when. Also when you get about 50 feet or so away from them there is major latecy issues. Any suggestions as what to do with the units. It is past 30 days so I can't return them to the seller (Guitar Center) and I have asked the Pro Audio people there several times for a rep to contact with no success. Thanks for your help.



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by dboomer on 2012-05-29 12:48:08

First the easy one.  The latency of the Relay does not change with distance.  What you are hearing is the delay through air ... which would be the same case for a cable.

IEM receivers shouldn't cause you any problems (as long as they are not actually touching each other).  Are you using paddle antennas on the IEM transmitters?  That could be a problem if those antennas have gain or if they are very close to the Relay receiver's antennas.  When you hear clicks does the green RF LED go off? (or red?)



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by bigdaddysound on 2012-06-04 10:13:58

I don't experience that amount of delay using my other packs. Especially at such a short distance. As far as the antennas on the IEM units. It is probably about 30-60 feet from the performers in monitor world. I use one Sennheiser CP Helical antenna for all of my IEM units. The antenna is passive with an 80 degree beam width. The rest of my transmitters on stage are all Shure UHFR units. As I said above I have no issues with any of my Shure or Sennheiser units. Everything is coordinated professionally and plays very well together. The G50's are all that I am having issues with. As far as the green lights in the unit. They stay green when the clicking noise occurs.



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by dboomer on 2012-06-04 11:02:10

I have no idea what clicking sound you could be hearing if the LEDs are staying green except some kind of sound caused by mechanical issues.  The fact that thay are staying green also rules out interference from other RF sources, so it is not being caused by your IEMs.  Is it possible that you could send me a wav file recording directly off the output of a receiver when this happens?  You could send the units in to have them checked out.  But since this is happening on multiple units it is probably not a hardware failure.  And because of the encrypted digital signal it is not possible for a Relay unit to pick up interference in the radio section.

Does this clicking happen no matter what instrument you have plugged in.  I want to rule out possible problems from active preamps in an instrument.

As far as latency ... it is fixed at just below 4ms.  It doesn't change with distance ... short or long as radio transmission is at the speed of light for both digiatl and analog.  You could improve the latency to 2.9 ms by flashing the G50s with the new V2.0x firmware, but you'll likely not hear any difference even though it will measure as shorter.

What firmware rev are you using?  Hold both buttons in while powering on and it should read in the LCD window of the transmitter.



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by adamdegraff on 2012-06-04 13:07:31

DBoomer,

how exactly does one upgrade to the new firmware? We have  6 G50s, and 2 XDV70, all using belt packs. I heard that one needs the XDV75 in hand to do the firmware upgrade. Is that true? We still, after three years of use, experinece random, 2-3 second drop outs every once in a while. We'd welcome any upgrad that makes the system more stable and lowers latency.

Thanks,

Adam

www.TheDuelingFiddlers.com



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by dboomer on 2012-06-04 13:13:53

Upgrading requires the use of a V75 receiver, as it it the only piece offered that has a USB connection.  From there it is a simple process using Line 6 Monkey updater (free online).

You might also read the tech note paper on Near/Far interference (on the documents page for XD-V) as that may have some impact since you are using multiple units.



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by bigdaddysound on 2012-06-05 11:21:19

It's obviously a hardware of firmware issue  then in the units. It stinks that you guys can't just admit that there may have been a bad run of these units since there are many people experiencing the same issues.  I can switch the units to any instrument on stage and they do the same thing. You seem to have an answer for all of my issues but none of them make the unit work properly. They have been packaged and sent back to Line 6 (hopefully to be replaced with ones that work). When I contacted the service dept and gave them the serial numbers of the units they didn't hesitate to tell me to send them  back right away for servicing. No run around on what to do to try and make them right. That leads me to believe there is a known issue with the units. Thanks for your help. Hopefully they will make these things work for me.



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by dboomer on 2012-06-06 08:47:54

Simply trying to rule out problems you might have fixed yourself and save you the time you'll be without your units if you send them in for service.  

There is no "known issue" with your problem. There have been firmware improvements which may benefit you (or they may not), but you could do it yourself and save the time.  You might have a hardware issue, anything can break.  But its highly unlikely (although possible) that multiple units all failed together.

Please post the explaination you get back when your units are returned. Then we'll all know



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by bigdaddysound on 2012-06-08 14:21:29

I've been without the units since we got them since they haven't worked properly since day 1. As far as updating them I don't have the unit required to do that anyway. We have switched back to our Sennheiser units and they are flawless so when the G50's return they are going up for auction on EBay.



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by Juddin on 2012-07-17 18:09:59

I have had the G50 and it has worked wonderful until the signal started dropping out. It was dropping out in my bedroom, took it to 2 shows and it was terrible. Later I pulled it out with the same pedal set up in my same bedroom and it worked great. WHAT THE HECK??? But today the reciver slipped out of my hand landed on some cement, now every light on the reciver is red, and won't connect to the transmiter. I was about to spend $250 on a new reciver until I read these and found that these systems haven't worked right for anyone. Now I don't know if I dare buy another reciver! I am not confident it will work well. Any suggestions?



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by dboomer on 2012-07-18 08:01:06

What pedal board supply are you using?



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by hansvaneven on 2012-08-19 03:22:50

Same problem here, but it seems to be the small cable or connexion betwen cable and transmitter (G50 set) that causes the issue, dissapointing though for the price ...

Hans



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by Biglermusic on 2012-09-09 16:50:44

I'm having the split second dropout on my g30. I spent some time checking it this last weekend before a show and have pinpointed it to the battery door on the transmitter. It seems that door is slightly loose and if it gets tweaked toward the clip side of the unit it looses contact with the batteries. Not sure if this would be the same issue with other relay transmitters, but it's extremely annoying when in the middle of a solo and the signal drops out. Would like to get that resolved!! The sound quality is great, but I'm not impressed with this flaw in design!! Any help would be appreciated!



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by kisslorand on 2012-09-09 23:09:17

I have G50 system since they made their appearence. It worked flawlessly until this year (2012). What it does is that the it drops out. Each and every time the transmitter status leds are going off than red than green. Lately they go off and will not come back. Sometimes it helps to unplug the power jack and plug it back or other times it helps if I turn off/on the transmitter. The dropouts makes this system absolutelly not usable on stage, I can use it only for rehearsal.

Conditions:

- new battery

- original power source

- antennas at 45 degree

- usually at 1-3 meters from reciever (transmitter in low power mode)

- no other radio device anywhere near our rehearsal room

- transmitter attached to my pants

Anyway I am using the G50 system the same way I used it when it worked 100% trouble-free, but now it's only a toy for show-off, not a usable system for live performance.

Any hints what should I do? Throw it away? Buy another one? Buy from another brand? Use cables?



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by dboomer on 2012-09-10 09:24:04

If it worked fine for two years and now has problems I would expect that there may be some kind of hardware failure and you should have the service dept check it out.

" - no other radio device anywhere near our rehearsal room

- transmitter attached to my pants"

Have you actually measured for RF?  When the green LEDs go out it does mean that you have a dropout ... but when it comes on red first there is at least some RF interference in the area.  You could try turning the transmitter off and then with the receiver turned on scrfoll through the channels.  If you see red LEDs that indicated that there is some other RF going on in that channel so pick the one that has no or little interference.  I want to point out that the G50 will proably work on any channel even if there are red LED ... but it will work with reduced range.

You would get better performance by putting the transmitter on your strap instead of your pants.  You will also probably get much better life from the cable in input jack by doing so.



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by kisslorand on 2012-09-11 18:21:59

   The way I understand the LEDs on the receiver is this: they turn red if there is a RF signal on the selected channel, they turn green if the RF on that channel is coming from the transmitter. As a matter of fact I did some tests with the channels. Whatever channel I use, the problems are the same. When drop-out occurs and I sweep through the receiver's channel I see no red LEDs on any channel except channel 12 (but not always). If I turn off the transmitter the red LEDs are going off. Since I have this G50 system I always used channel 1, never had any problems. With the transmitter turned off, I never seen any red LEDs on the receiver on any channel.

About my pants... The transmitter is doing just fine there, as it did for 2 years as in the rehearsal room, as on stage. I always take great care of my gear and so I do with my G50, I always pay attention not to stress the cable between my guitar and the G50 transmitter. Anyway, I was thinking to change the jack to a Neutrik one but not until I see my G50 system working again as it should.



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by dboomer on 2012-09-11 18:47:50

Well the answer is always the same.  You either have a hardware problem or you have a local conditions problem.  The hardware could have worked for two years and then failed or you conditions have changed.  It's hard to tell without being able to sweep for RF and measure what's happening.

Are you using the factory power supply?

As far as the pants thing ... you are losing RF transmitting strength.  No way to know how much and no way to know if that's just pushing you over the edge.



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by kisslorand on 2012-09-11 19:23:07

"Are you using the factory power supply?"

Yes, I am using the factory power supply.

"You either have a hardware problem or you have a local conditions problem."

If it is a local conditions problem, does that problem disappear by switching off and on the transmitter? I don't think so. By turning off and on several times the transmitter I get my RF signal back.

OK, I guess it is a HW failure, I'm sending it back to Thomann Germany.



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by kisslorand on 2012-10-14 03:34:10

I sent it back to Thomann Germany, they concluded that there's no issue whatsoever with the unit. What's next? What if I buy another one and that one will function as desired under the same exact conditions?



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by hansvaneven on 2012-10-14 09:31:19

Got mine back too, they just replaced the cable, seems to work, but am not 100% sure playing with it now ... so I have always the feeling that I need a reserve transmitter ...

Hans



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by dboomer on 2012-10-14 11:42:27

So did we ever establish that you and not putting the transmitter in your pants AND that you have switched it to high power?  On low power and in a pant pocket you are running at only about 20% of the possible transmit power.

Have you every tried it at some other location?  What was the result?

Do you have any way to check for local wi-fi in use at your location?  Maybe you can take a laptop and see what networks might be available at that location.



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by kisslorand on 2012-10-15 23:22:42

   I have this Relay G50 from 2010. From the first day I was using it attached to my pants. I think I used it more than 1000 hours without any issue at all. I always used low power setting, even on stage (some of them big ones). So if it worked 2 years flawlessly, why is it suddenly a problem using it the way I did 2 years without any problems? The problems appeared gradually. At first small drop-outs followed by a quick resync. Those small drop-outs happened once/twice a month. Than they started to appear more often. These drop-outs occured in different locations. 3 months back the dropout happened without an auto resync. I had to reset both units (transmitter/receiver). Since than dropouts are never followed by an auto resync. I am an engineer in electronics, I am used to behaviours of electronic devices. Also I am way over 30years, I have seen enough guitar gear. From my experience it is a clear sign of a HW failure when the faults happening more often and more severe regardless of the situations. BTW, no WiFi is present at our actual rehearsal room. I remember using my G50 at a rehearsal room for 2 years where right there was a WiFi router, there was naver any problem. I even used my G50 at home (when it worked), where the receiver was 50cm from my WiFi router, never had any problems (Relay on channel 1, router on channel 9).

  I am using my G50 within a range of 1-3 meters in our rehearsal room, I recall that it was mentioned that in very small range it is not adviced to use on high power. Anyway I did try that also, same thing, dropouts without any resync, signal leds off (not even the red led on). I think someone mentioned G50 doesn't like iPhones, on mine the WiFi is always off, it rests far from my G50 system.

   Is it a possibility that Thomann Germany service is not really qualified repairing this unit?



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by dboomer on 2012-10-16 11:41:46

I guess if you are convinced the problem is hardware failure then you should find alternative service station.  Click on contact us link at bottom of page.

Alternatively you could flash the unit with newer firmware.  It does require access to a v75 as the interface.

I'm still not certain that you have ruled out local interference.  I would still like to hear the results of running on high power and at a different venue.  With the transmitter turned off do you see red LEDs on any/all channels?



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by kisslorand on 2012-10-16 20:47:54

I cannot flash it because the one I have is one of the very first units. Thomann Germany is asking me 50EUR (~65USD) for firmware upgrade.

About the LEDs, please check my post from September the 11th. The unit is still at Thomann, I am thinking to buy a new one because the resolving of this issue is going nowhere.

Today I will make a scan of the recievable WiFi networks and I will try to borrow a 2.4GHz WiFi spectrum analyzer.

P.S.: Do you think a V75 would be more suitable for my needs? Is it less prone to dropouts? Or maybe G55...

Later edit: I just checked WiFi activity in our rehearsal room, the highest signal was -82dBm. This was at 12:30 PM, a busy period of the day.



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by dboomer on 2012-10-18 09:48:05

The advantage that a V75/55 or G90 would give you would be the ability to add paddle antennas which would add to reliability. Also their is a small range improvement with them.  Aside from that all units should be nearly identical in performance if they were all operating in similar conditions



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by adamdegraff on 2012-10-18 10:00:18

dboomer,

can you walk us through the firmware update? I have 6 G50s, 2 G90's, and 4XDV-70s that we use in various configurations. We think the line6 digital wireless is great, but we do get regular drop outs. After using them for 3 years now, I can say that they are by far the best option, but they aren't perfect. Maybe this firmware update will smooth out the wrinkles? We don't own any of the xd75s though. How can we go about getting the necessary firmware? Am I to understand that we'd be updating the beltpacks of the 50/90/70 with the receiver of the 75?  Is there any chance that this update will fry our current gear?

Thanks,

Adam



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by kisslorand on 2012-10-18 10:26:40

What about the LEDs beeing off? What about the fee Thomann is asking for FW upgrade, is it legit? What about the -82dBm signal?

Can you please explain if the unit is not broken what can cause the dropout and the need to power them off and on to get the signal back? If that something is causing dropout than why is the unit resyncing after a power off/on cycle?



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by dboomer on 2012-10-18 10:41:57

The basic update method is here ...  http://line6.com/support/docs/DOC-2707">http://line6.com/support/docs/DOC-2707">http://line6.com/support/docs/DOC-2707

You MUST have access to a V75 becasue it has a USB port that is necessary so it can act as an interface.  There have been a number of incremental improvements over the years and they are all wrapped up in the V2.x update.  Hard to say if you will see any improvement to dropouts because they are usually caused by local conditions, but it couldn't hurt.  I have never experienced it "frying" any gear.



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by dboomer on 2012-10-18 10:50:39

I'm sorry ... I was not understanding that what you are experiencing is a power on/off cycle.  If that's the case I would try to rule out a problem with battery size (this happens with rechargables frequently) or that the battery terminals have become damaged or bent.

It is also possible that certain kinds of interference (dropouts) can cause the units to re-sync and if that is the case there are some firmware improvements that could be beneficial in some cases.  As far as an upgrade fee, we also charge for that service in the US as it takes a certain amount of bench repair time and there are shipping fees involved.

Its difficult to guess across the internet without having actual access to the gear.



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by gcdef on 2012-10-18 10:53:05

Don, that's not the case with these units.  All three of mine dropped out in places I play on a regular basis.  Places where other units don't experience any problems at all.  You're in denial here.  There really is a problem with these units and blaming it on local conditions instead of where the blame really belongs, isn't doing your customer base any favors at all.  I'm sure the majority of the units work properly, but you can't just shrug your shoulders and pass the buck to the environment with the ones that don't.  I wish I knew what it would take for you to pull your head out of the sand.

With all the wireless units I've used, and with all the wireless units other people I've played with, I don't recall ever seeing a dropout, let alone dropouts ever few minutes that these products exhibit.



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by kisslorand on 2012-10-18 11:16:03

"If that's the case I would try to rule out a problem with battery size (this happens with rechargables frequently) or that the battery terminals have become damaged or bent."

I have to power cycle the reciever also several times to get the units to sync. Sometimes 1 cycle is OK, sometimes up to ~10 is needed.

Since the first time sync problem appeared I changed more than 40 batteries (never used rechargables). I use the exact same type of batteries from the beginning. 2 years they were the right size?

I read/program PLCC, QFP, TQPF, SOP, PSOP, DIP processors, flash and eeprom memories almost on daily basis. I think I can spot a contact problem. Believe me or not, it's not the case, checked it already. If it was the case I would not see anything on the sender's display, right? Or if it is a very short problem of power supply on the sender, I should see the sender rebooting. Not the case, checked.

I have to ask it again... Do you really think a -82dBm or lower signal can cause interference to the Relay G50? Does the LEDs beeing off telling you anything? They are telling me that no recievable signal is present at the selected channel or the reciever is unable to recieve a signal at that channel... or both. Am I wrong here?

BTW, can I have the flash file so I can update the FW myself? Is the FW stored in MCU or Flash?

OH!!! I forgot to tell you some very important thing!!! After the dropout occurs, all LEDs are going off and then the battery meter comes back showing the status of the batteries from the sender. How is this possible if the sender and receiver is not synced???



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by dboomer on 2012-10-18 11:34:45

No, I expect that a -82dBm level should not be a problem.

As far as re-syncing cycles, there is some timing involved so if you do it too quickly then it is still possible that it could take a number of them.  What time period is this over?

Seeing no activity on the receiver's LEDs could also indicate a problem with the receiver.  Did Thomann check both TX and Rx?

Flashing the update is only possible through Line 6 Monkey.  We do not have any other method avaliable to protect proprietary code.

The unanswered question is why did it appear to work correctly when on the test bench at Thomann?  What is different?  I suspect that when that question is answered then the problem can be corrected.

We would be happy to check the system if you send it to us but short of that I just have to guess as to what is most likely going on.



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by kisslorand on 2012-10-18 12:08:15

I remember one time dropout occured we took a break and went out for a smoke. I left the units on, when we were back they were just as I left them, unsynced. This is the biggest time period I can recall. Of course I had to switch off and on the units.

I still wonder how can you exlpain the reciver shows the battery status but signal strength LEDs ar off?

Thomann has both the receiver and the sender, they told me they sent them to an authorized Line6 repair center. The response from this repair sender was: "As you can see on the forum these kind of problems are conditioned by the environment they are used in. Also on the forum you can see other kind of problems described. The system was tested here for a long period of time under praxis conditions, the problems were not confirmed."

I told Thomann also that it can pass a week without any issue and the next rehearsal dropouts every 15-30 minutes. I doubt Thomann (or whoever else) tested as much as I did. I have 4 rehearsals a week, usually 2 hours/rehearsal. That's 8 hours of playing that can go by without any issue. I have dropout isses for 7 months now, I tested whatever tests I could come up with. Changed 220V connectors, changed power modes, changed channels, I saw dropouts with fresh batteries also, checked the power plug that goes into the reciever. BTW, all of our gear is powered trough a power stabilizer with servo motor. I keep my eyes on the output power, it is solid 220V regardless of the input voltage. I know it should not be an issue, the power source of the Line6 Relay G50 is a switching power supply.

My unit is still under warranty, I am without it for a month now. If I send it to you it would take a very long time to make the roundtrip and get it repaired/replaced/whatever. This forces me to buy another unit even if I already own one, even if it is under warranty. I need the wireless system, that's why I bought it!

I asked Thomann what if I buy another unit and it will work flawlessly "under the same circumstances". Guess what! No answer to that!

You are the maker of the unit, Thoman is only a reseller, I am only an unhappy customer (even if I own several other Line6 products). Who's the only one that looses anything? I guess it's me. Why? Because I am little, law of the jungle.

"The unanswered question is why did it appear to work correctly when on the test bench at Thomann?  What is different?  I suspect that when that question is answered then the problem can be corrected"

The other question is why does it appear to work correctly for a week or so for me and than fails and than working again for a week and so on? Who's the one that has to answer to these questions? Line6, Thomann, me?



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by dboomer on 2012-10-18 19:15:35

The battery indication simply doesnt change because it doesn't update.

The fact that it works sometimes and then some weeks it doesn't would seem to indicate that either the hardware has an intermittent problem or that the local conditions change.  This is also consistant with the fact that it worked well for a long time and then changed.  That would seem to rule out any firmware issues.  The newest firmware may be able to deal better with certain kinds of interference and quicker re-syncing but if we don't know what that is we wouldn't be able to speculate.

Thomann of course can't make any guarantees to performance without being able to guarantee the local conditions.  Your -82 dBm measurement may change over time so you would really need to be making the measurement at the time you get the dropout to know if interference is a factor.

As to why it works for a week or so and then fails again it points back to an intermittent hardware issue or to a change in local conditions.  It could also be a combination of both.  Again we would be happy to test and measure it but we would have to get it back to do that.

I have one other question that could shed some light... are you getting normal battery life (6-8 hours) with new batteries?



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by kisslorand on 2012-10-18 22:28:09

"The battery indication simply doesnt change because it doesn't update." - sounds like a firmware bug. No signal but battery level is indicated... So I cannot trust the battery indicator at shows? Nice!

"The fact that it works sometimes and then some weeks it doesn't would seem to indicate that either the hardware has an intermittent problem or that the local conditions change.  This is also consistant with the fact that it worked well for a long time and then changed.  That would seem to rule out any firmware issues."

Are you telling me that for two years I never encountered bad local conditions wherever I went and for 7 months I encounter ONLY bad local conditions ??? Suddenly everyone has high power devices at 2.4GHz and they only power it on when I use my Relay G50? Can I be more unlucky than that?

During those 7 months I made another test, I used the receiver  near my WiFi router. Right near the router I had signal strength problems (showing only 2 of 3 LEDs) but no dropouts, at 1~2 meters no signal problems, no dropouts. The signal is -22dBm at 50cm from the router and -30dBm at 1 meter. Both units were on channel 1 at the time of the tests. If it was not a bad environment for the Relay G50 than I cannot imagine what is! For me it is just a proof that your system is a good one but only when it works, when no HW failure or whatever else that might be the issue with my unit.

"Again we would be happy to test and measure it but we would have to get it back to do that." Can you arrange that with Thomann or that specific authorized Line6 service they are referring to? Do I have to do that? I am afraid the expences and the time consumed to get to the USA and back not worth it. I have to mention again that my unit is still under warranty. Based on European laws I do not have to pay to send my unit for repair under warranty period.

OK, I will order a new G50, I will have my questionable G50 back, I will make measurements during rehearsal. Should I also record a video of the issue while I play?

How close can two recievers be? I am asking it because I want to record both of them. I am not sure I will be able to record my laptop's screen, the two receivers and still play the guitar. But hey, these days a musician has to be an engineer and a magician also!   Maybe I will learn to write my name on the carpet with my left foot in the same time too... LOL  ...or do the "moonwalk".

I can go through five rehearsals with one set of batteries. This was from the beginning, it didn't change. I use Varta High Energy.



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by dboomer on 2012-10-19 10:17:00

The battery indicator is accurate to 10 minutes and it updates itself (assuming the transmitter is synced) every 800 ms.

Video could help sort out the problem.  Just keep the antennas at least 5" away from each other.  While you are at it ... it could also prove useful to use the new TX with the old RX and visa versa.



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by kisslorand on 2012-10-25 12:09:55

   My G50 is still at Thomann, Line6 repair center still telling them that it is OK. In the meantime I bought an XD-V75. Today I installed it in the rehearsal room and started its "channel scan" function, kept my eyes on it for about 2 hours. I wasn't using it, just left it to display the scan results. Here's a screenshot about my "local conditions":

XD V-75 Channel Scan.jpg



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by dboomer on 2012-10-25 13:10:23

What the V75 scan measures are specific frequencies that match up with RF2 channels.  It is not measuring wi-fi itself nor RF1 channels (which is where your G50 is running).  So it does not give us a complete picture.

It does look like you won't have any trouble in RF2 mode at that location.  You could also try switching the transmitter into RF1 mode and trying some of the channels that gave you problems with the G50.  Unfortunately you cannot scan for RF1 interference though.

Now that you have a V75 you should flash your G50 with the latest firmware and see if that takes care of your problems.

Also just a reminder, you cannot run both RF1 mode and RF2 mode at the same time.  If you do probably neither unit will work reliably.



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by kisslorand on 2012-10-31 03:33:53

I got the G50 back. I wrote it many times that my unit is one of the very first ones, so it's probably with FW 1.02 or less. In the FW upgrade procedure there's not a word that they can not be upgraded with V75 but I found a reply from you to someone that the units with FW less than 1.02 cannot be upgraded with Monkey and V75. Now what, how can I test these 2 systems since I cannot mix RF1 with RF2?

Later edit: I updated the FW in the G50 receiver but I had no luck with the transmitter, I cannot make it to go into "loader mode". You told me several times that I will be able to upgrade it with a v75. OK, I bought a v75. Can you tell me how to do what you promised I would be able to do?

I am just suprised the receiver was made to be upgradable by user and the transmitter not...



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by dboomer on 2012-11-01 10:13:00

First ... I would recommend running all of your systems in RF1 mode until there is a reason to do otherwise.  You switch it on the transmitter.

I would recommend sending your G50 system back to us directly so we can evaluate it.

Unfortunately you can't know the future until you arrive there. When we first released the systems we didn't think that we would be providing a free new system so there was no provision for them to be addressable via RF transmission.  Generally speaking, when changes to wireless systems have occured in the past you had to buy the new model to get the new system.   The receiver on the other hand is flashed by direct connection via wire so nothing else is needed.



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by kisslorand on 2012-11-01 13:31:53

Today during the rehearsal I tested the G50 receiver with the TBP12G and than with the v75 transmitter. XD-v75 transmitter was used in RF2 mode with the updated G50 receiver. I saw something I never saw before, the audio LED on the receiver was going red from time to time. I never had this before. With the TBP12G transmitter in RF1 I had no clipping issue. I had no dropouts today...

The other days I used the XD-v75 system, audio signal got into red a very few times (3~4). No dropouts.

I kept telling you my G50 is one of the first ones and you kept telling me I will be able to update it with v75. Now you're backing off? I saw TBP06 can be upgraded via cable. As I recall, the G30 system came up earlier than G50. So... TBP06 can be upgraded but TBP12 not? Isn't there a way to upgrade TBP12 with cable just like the TBP06. I have TA4F and stereo jack at hand, I can make the cable, just need the connection pinout. I did try however 1->GND, 3->TIP, 2->Ring and  1->GND, 3->TIP, 4->Ring combinations, didn't work.

BTW, if you have told me that I could never update my TBP12G with v75, I would have told Thomann to upgrade it while it was there. Now, if I cannot make that with v75, I have to pay the postage to and back from Thomann. Your misinformation will cost me extra 60EUR (77.69USD) and extra 2-3 weeks. Should I thank you?

Also, I found a problem with the transmitter. I don't know if it was "THE" problem, but it could have been the source of the dropouts. I made some pictures, I will upload it. I just can't believe the "professionals" at the Line6 repair center in Germany missed that! (Do you pay them peanuts?) At the moment I can't tell more about the problem I found, it might void my warranty. I will upload the pictures when I will see my G50 back to the way as it was in the first 2 years, aka PERFECT.



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by dboomer on 2012-11-01 14:11:55

Did you ever state which version you have?   I backed off after your post #92 where you stated that it could not be flashed.

There is a big red text warning that versions below v1.03  need to be returned to the factory.

"TBP12 transmitters must currently be loaded with firmware v1.03 or greater to upgrade via Monkey.  If your TBP12 has an earlier version firmware installed, it will need to be returned to Line 6 for upgrading."    http://line6.com/support/docs/DOC-2650">http://line6.com/support/docs/DOC-2650">http://line6.com/support/docs/DOC-2650

The TA4 connector doesn't operate like the TRS connector in the G30 at all.  The "ring" connection at the input of a G30/35 is an input for digital information.  There is no such input on the TBP12 beltpacks.



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by kisslorand on 2012-11-01 14:17:56

Are you sure it was after post 92? Check post 106... "Now that you have a V75 you should flash your G50 with the latest firmware and see if that takes care of your problems."

BTW, there's no way I can see on my TBP12G transmitter which FW it has. ...or is it a sign it is lower than 1.03? Is it written somewhere?



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by kisslorand on 2012-11-01 14:23:58

I cannot edit my posts...

Anyway, is there a pad on the transmitter's PCB  for "digital input"?

I know it's an Atmel ARM proceesor there, but I doubt you will ever give ma a dump so I can write it through JTAG.



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by RonMarton on 2012-11-01 15:05:23

Hello from Australia...

I am not from Line 6 and have no affilliation with or loyalty to them. I say this to give you some "background" to my opinions.

My first observation is to say that my opinion of the Australian representatives of Line 6's marvellous range of products was so low that I bought all of my Line 6 equipment from Sweetwater Sound of Fort Wayne, Indiana in the USA and then paid myUs.com to ship them.

(I feel that this opinion is supported by the fact of that distributor having, just now, gone out of business.)

My half century of worldwide audio work (click on my pink avatar at left for more background) has made me believe that such huge variations in worldwide service would seem to be inevitable, ...but I also know how easy it is to miss intermittent faults when gear is tested on the bench as opposed to using it in the "real" world.

My second observation is to say that the main "advantage" of upgrading the firmware in a later TBP12 beltpack would be access to the "RF2" scheme of frequencies, which I find to be much less robust than the trusty old "RF1" that you have in all of your Line 6 stuff.

Not only that, but there is no way to make RF1 and RF 2 work together. So your decision to use the G50 "as it was in the first 2 years" will, in my opinion, definitely give you many more years of reliable service alongside any newer gear also operating on RF1.

You can find a fuller discusion of both frequency schemes here:

http://line6.com/support/message/374285#374285

As Don has pretty much said, it is indeed very sad that total "future-proofing" when releasing a new product will only be fully available once Line 6 eventually releases their fully functioning, all-singing, all-dancing crystal ball, their FutureScape CB20d.

(The Beta release has been very disappointing.)

All of that aside, I really do share (and sympathise with) the all too understandable annoyance that you feel, but it is my belief that Line 6 do go a lot further in dealing with such issues than most other manufacturers.



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by kisslorand on 2012-11-01 15:30:48

Thank you very much for the insights. I understand now the benefits of using RF1 instead of RF2. They've been telling me I have dropouts because of the interferences. They also told me the v75 scans only RF2 channels, I have no interference on the V75's display. Now what should I do?  They say I have interference on RF1, I see no interference on RF2 but RF1 is more reliable... It's kind of confusing. Don't use RF2 because it's not that reliable, don't use RF1 because you have interference...

Anyway, it's always nice to have choices. The audience don't give a f**k if I use RF1 or RF2, but they will notice if I have dropouts. Who knows what will Line6 bring to the table in the future with new FW releases? I will not be able to benefit of it, whatever it will be. It's a pitty they (dboomer) assured me I can update my G50 which is "one of the very first releases". Thanks to them/him I will have to spend another 60EUR only for postage.

<Joke mode on> I remember the time when I had a dead XT Live with Metal Pack installed and they told me I have to connect it through Monkey to be able to transfer the Metal Pack to another XT Live. Duh, it's dead! How should I connect it to my PC ??? Interesting (aka ultra-smart) people there at Line6... I am kind of getting used to them... <Joke mode off>



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by RonMarton on 2012-11-01 16:24:01

A hearty "me too" from Down Under as far as your XT Live experience !

I've also been amazed at the way "specialists" often become so "specialized" that they totally ignore the wider and far more basic picture that is the heart of the problem.

(Far be it from me to say that sometimes the best way of locating the least useful person in the room is to find the one with the highest academic qualifications.)

As for RF2, I can honestly say that it does work really well most of the time, but is only really essential if

  1. An extra two channels are required and/or
  2. There's a need for the Line 6 operator to allow WiFi/Bluetooth operators the best functionality possible in a given venue. For me, this has only occasionally happened at teleconferences and multimedia events, for which the V75's front-panel diagnostic display has been really great.

Even with RF1, that diagnostic display has been very handy for revealing the existence of "hidden" 2.4GHz radiation (digital A/V distribution, wireless routers, remote control systems, network hubs, microwave systems etc.) that may affect my operating range.

Nevertheless, given that I don't need the extra channels, I find it hard to imagine that RF2 would ever be required in a normal "audience" situation (such as a concert or in a club) and so I hardly ever use it. 



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by kisslorand on 2012-11-07 05:56:46

1.JPG2.JPG3.JPG4.JPG

Check the ribbon how it is not secured to the connector on the main PCB. This is what happens if chinese kids do the job, this is how it came back from the Line6 repair center. Their professionals thought it is just fine if they leave it that way, they told me unit is in perfect condition. They couldn't find anything wrong with my unit. For those who don't know, that ribbon goes to another PCB, the RF PCB. That PCB is just above the AT91SAM321 ARM processor. The professionals thought that that ribbon not beeing secured to the connector on the main PCB is the way it must be there, they thought it cannot be the cause for the signal dropouts. So dear readers, it might have been my "local condition" causing my dropouts. The funny thing is that I lost my warranty now, because I repaired a fault, that Line6 repair center professionals couldn't spot. The other funny thing is that Line6 repair center professionals charged Thomann for testing this G50 system... It's not possible not to love them, not possible not to trust their professional way of handling problems.

   I don't know if this was "THE" problem of the dropouts, but it surely was a problem that could cause those dropouts. Since I secured back that ribbon, I had no dropouts.



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by RonMarton on 2012-11-07 08:46:11

The bad news: ...YOU got the one in ten thousand or so that wasn't within tolerances when it left the robot who assembled it.

The good news: ...if your luck's so amazingly bad as to now ever actually need another repair, I reckon you're a virtual certainty to win any lottery you might subsequently enter !



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by kisslorand on 2012-11-07 10:29:15

I have a certainty, the bad news is not that I had a broken unit, the bad news is that "professionals" didn't care about the returned unit. They just didn't care. Did I ever complained that the unit is broken? No. I complained how the issue was handled.

I have another certainty, the good news is that I never ever play lottery and I will have a son next week.



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by dboomer on 2012-11-07 11:55:56

Congratulations on your upcoming family addition!  Have you already picked out a guitar for him?  I myself was recently promoted from father to grandpa.  It's amazingly wonderful.

I can't speak as to how an outside repair center handled your problem but if you would please use the "contact us" link.  There is a item called "having problems with my repair center" and make a report it will get reviewed by the LIne 6 service people.



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by RonMarton on 2012-11-08 07:59:50

I never gamble either, but here's a sure bet: nothing beats the joy you have coming.

Heartfelt congratulations and all the very best to you and yours.



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by kisslorand on 2012-11-08 13:17:47

Thank you guys for the kind words, I am so exited. I am used to create music, now I created life too.

BTW, is there a Line6 wireless baby monitoring system?



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by RonMarton on 2012-11-08 13:24:37

There sure is!

Plant any XD-V lavalier beltpack in the room and monitor its receiver via a powered loudspeaker where you are...

...Although I have been told that there may be somewhat cheaper systems available.

(Mind you, none of them will allow Junior to subsequently plug in his Variax to jam with Daddy.)



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by BrunaoLobo on 2012-11-09 08:41:38

SOMEONE HELP ME!

I have an relay G50 and in my FIRST show the motherboard's had burned out! I tested in home it was perfect! I was playing at show and... in 15 minutes using, it started losing signal... in 20 minutes i just had noise! in home i tested again e nothing better happened. Result: motherboard burned!!!!! OMG.... no one believed in it ! up till now i can believe in this! What can i do?!?! i need to do more shows and in need it to much! will i need to pay other?



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by dboomer on 2012-11-09 19:23:36

I'm not sure how you get from "losing signal" to "burnt out motherboard" ... but ...

Click on the "contact us" link at the bottom of the page



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by kisslorand on 2012-11-09 19:39:22

A better description of the symptoms would help for a better diagnose. What are the settings, what indicators are on, what do they indicate and so on...



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by RonMarton on 2012-11-09 19:52:17

IMPORTANT

I do not understand this either, but I know that it is urgent and something horrible has happened.

Try to visit

http://translate.google.com

where you may be able to write a full and clear report in your own language, have it translated into English ...and then paste it for us to understand it better here or via the contact link.

Even if the translated version is not natural or elegant, I feel that we will get a better idea, as you will probably find it far easier than trying to "think in English."



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by BrunaoLobo on 2012-11-11 08:32:42

My Relay G50 dont works!! in my FIRST show, it stoped to work and doesn't worked anymore! I changed batery, tryed everything but it doesn't works! A friend of mine told me it wont works anymore if i dont repair the.... "motherboard" inside relay G50. it's bad operation inside! "electronic components" There's 3 red leds always, anytime, anywhere, anyway. I HAVE A TOUR TO DO AND I CANT PLAY WITHOUT it !

Sorry about my english, its hard to speak about so specific subject!

I use a POD HD 500 and a HD 400 that works so good!



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by RonMarton on 2012-11-11 15:11:35

"A friend of mine told me..."

No disrespect to this "friend", (who is only trying to help) but there is NO way anyone (other than Superman, with his "x-ray vision") can "see" a motherboard fault from the outside.

So I have just three observations to make:

First, it seems to me (now that we have something of a description) that the fault may (only "may") be as simple as an RF input component either having become disconnected from the rest of the circuitry or incorrectly "seated" when originally assembled.

Second, to help all of us, (we are, after all, a community) please update us on how things work out by going here: http://line6.com/support/digital_wireless/xdv-mics  and clicking "Start a discussion" under "Actions" at the top right. This will help others with similar issues find it, provided you put something like "Relay G50: No Signal, All LEDs Red" in the top (title) box and mark it as a question ...and finally...

Third, you should definitely take up Don Boomer's offer of direct help from Line 6 by clicking on "Contact Us" at the bottom of this page.

My feeling is  that you have had the worst bad luck in getting a "one in ten thousand" unit that either shipped with an initial fault or suffered excess shock in transit.

I am not connected with Line 6 in any way, other than these forums. I am just a client like you. Accordingly, I feel your disappointment and pain in having to spend both time and shipping money to get this fixed under warranty.

However, what I can tell you, from personal experience, is that Line 6 equipment is generally among the most reliable and well built that you can get.



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by BrunaoLobo on 2012-11-11 15:54:17

A friend of mine works with this kind of equipament. I sent to autorized line 6 but i had no answer. i'm trying to find an way to repair it cuz is very expensive to buy another Relay G50 here in Brazil. And i agree with "had the worst bad luck in getting a "one in ten thousand" unit"



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by RonMarton on 2012-11-11 16:02:42

Sadly, different agents in different countries DO give vastly different levels of service.

Go to the "Contact Us" link and deal directly with Line 6, but remember that their "Saturday morning" starts about ten hours from now.

As I see it, there is NO WAY you should need to pay for a whole new unit ...and maybe Line 6 will "put a bomb" under your local agent!



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by dboomer on 2012-11-11 20:40:11

Hello BrunaoLobo

It is hard to speculate without seeing your unit.  It could be something very simple or it could be something much more severe but at this point I can only guess.

Have you run through the troubleshooting tips in the document section of this board?  Are you using a pedalboard power supply or are you using the factory supplied unit?



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by kisslorand on 2013-01-26 14:30:55

A little feedback from my long and boring problem...

Since I settled my problem with the dropouts I had many rehearsals in the same conditions. The "problematic" G50 is used by our bassist, I use the V75. We had ZERO dropouts. None, nada, niente, keine, etc

Everything sounds fabulous, live gigs sound outstanding. We'll nevere ever use cables again.

Maybe  some of the Line6 stuff will learn that sometimes it might be a gear problem and not interference and any other blabla I was feeded with. Maybe users will seee that some of the Line6 repair centers are giving false/wrong diagnostics. Maybe Line6 will change their policy how they train their service center employees. Maybe not...

However, it's not always a user error!

Bottom line is that I have to thank Line6 creating such devices, I have to thank to the open minded people working there, I have to thank them sending me a FW upgraded emitter for the G50 for free.

Whoever is reading this, guys, go with Line6 wireless, you will never regret your decision!

P.S.: Having a child beats any Line6 gear So, make music, have sex! Perfect combination.



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by RonMarton on 2013-01-26 16:14:58

(Not necessarily in that order...)

...Regarding your "maybes", here's another:

MAYBE, now that Line 6's supposed "representatives" in Australia have gone broke and ceased trading, (something that I believe was a fitting "reward" for their incompetence) a new representative will be appointed.

One who (in my opinion) won't:

  1. Keep the brand's existence "secret" and
  2. Disregard clients' requirements, both established and prospective.

(TAG, the Technical Audio Group of both Stanmore in Sydney and Coburg in Melbourne spring to mind, as it's my experience that they've long proven to be a superb "end-user-focussed" agency that always "goes the extra mile" in support of their clients and products. ...Once again, as with Line 6, I've neither any association with, nor particular loyalty to TAG. Just many happy years of having been one of their clients.)

http://www.tag.com.au/content/view/1/

Whatever happens, all readers should be assured of the sad fact that Line 6 are far from being alone in having a superb product range "massacred" at the hands of incompetent local representation, ...as many makers of fine motor vehicles will attest.

It's been my experience, however, that Line 6 are VERY much alone in providing an unparalleled standard of immediate worldwide support, such as (and including) this unique forum.



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by ijstijger on 2013-02-03 09:52:57

Mmm. somewhow I fear that your declaration of love to Line6 will be little comforting to the guy who has spend a lot of money on equipment, that he thinks is top quality and reliable, after his gig was ruined due to failing gear.

According to what I hear and read, some complaints seem not to be incidents. For instance, I would like to hear from line6 what they have done, or plan to do, on the issue of the connection between the cable and the transmitter unit, which apparently gives a lot of people headaches.

And, while at it, maybe they can explain the choice for such cable, in stead of using a more standard connection.    

At the moment I myself am considering to replace another digital wireless (Stageclix) that caused a lot of trouble (so I've been there...).

I was thinking about the line6 G90 but am very hesitant at the moment, especially while I'm in Europe so a defect could mean a lot of hassle.



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by RonMarton on 2013-02-03 13:33:53

Far from any sort of "love", ...I'm neither affilliated with, nor do I have any particular loyalty to, Line 6 or any other manufacturer.

(Click on my pink avatar at left for more details of my background.)

It's my ongoing worldwide experience, however, that gives rise to my firm belief that any other manufacturers' wireless beltpack systems of comparable ruggedness and reliability cost between two and five times as much (Aargh !) as Line 6's XD-V and Relay, ...but only very few approach the versatility and sonic excellence of those Line 6 systems.

Hence MY decision to "gamble" by importing my fairly large inventory of Line 6 systems, in spite of the abysmal local support then being offered by Line 6's local represenatives here "at the end of the Earth", "Terra Australis Incognita".

After more than a year on the road, that "gamble" has revealed itself to have been a true "winning ticket".

I don't believe you should have any concerns about the TA4 connections to Line 6 beltpack's as I've yet to suffer an intermittency or failure, even though I regularly depend on a variety of them.

It's nevertheless my policy to always carry spares, but (thankfully) they're not expensive items.    

Here are links to just one of the European firms that supply them:

http://www.thomann.de/gb/shure_wa_304.htm

http://www.thomann.de/gb/shure_wa302.htm



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by gcdef on 2013-02-03 17:09:59

I disagree.  I'm using a digital wireless by another manufacturer that cost the same as the G50 and sounds every bit as good.  It's great that you've had good luck, but most of the people in this thread haven't, and it really doesn't matter what a product costs if it doesn't work.  They could sell G50s for $1.99 and I wouldn't use one based on the performance I got out of them.  In fact, you couldn't pay me to use one.



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by RonMarton on 2013-02-03 17:17:38

I'm always thankful of the opportunity to learn...

Can you provide details of the system that you prefer ?

(I'd love to try it.)



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by ijstijger on 2013-02-05 03:41:10

What do you think Ron, will line6 answer my questions?

quote

I would like to hear from line6 what they have done, or plan to do, on the issue of the connection between the cable and the transmitter unit, which apparently gives a lot of people headaches. 

And, while at it, maybe they can explain the choice for such cable, in stead of using a more standard connection.    

unquote



Re: Relay G50 signal dropout
by RonMarton on 2013-02-05 03:54:00

Excuse the Aussie vernacular, Folks...

But I would bloody well hope so, mate ! 

In common with many manufacturers, they've clearly had a quality-control problem with a run of G50s and sundry problems with some overseas representatives, but I'm very much hoping that their lack of response to your query is just an atypical oversight.

It's certainly out of character with both the very existence of this forum as well as with the generally excellent and innovative nature of their products.




The information above may not be current, and you should direct questions to the current forum or review the manual.