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Tip for Vetta owners: HD500 + DT50(s)
by Crusty_Old_Rocker on 2010-12-24 14:01:34

I just wanted to provide some insight for people who are used to the Vetta II and are looking to transition to the HD500 + DT50.

There are two very different ways that the HD500 and DT50 do their  modelling magic. I'll explaing both ways, but will start with how to get things working like the Vetta II.

This first way is similar to the Vetta II where you use the  full amp models while the DT50(s) just provide the amplification and  speakers (like using an Atomic amp with a POD).  The POD HD500 has DT50 output routing  options that give you amp A and amp B to different DT50s (without post  effects).  This is equivalent to the wide mode on the Vetta II output  settings.  Or you can have the post effects which sum the two amp tones and  apply the effects to produce a stereo output, which is just like the Normal mode on the Vetta II output settings.

I really have to make it clear that to have the HD500 and DT50 working similar to the Vetta, it can only be  done using the full amp models and setting the DT50 purely for clean  amplification (NFL I, class A and use the half power on the master  volume if needed).

The other way the HD500 and DT50(s) work is by  actually becoming the amps being modelled (I don't know a better way to  describe it). This takes a different approach to amp modelling.  The full amp models in the HD500 actually model the interaction between preamp and poweramp of the modelled valve amps.  When using the PRE models, this interaction is REAL rather than modelled.

What you do is use the PRE models in the HD500 and let  the DT50 use the correct poweramp configuration for the PRE models this  is very, very different to the Vetta.  For this to work correctly, you  need to HIT the poweramp in the DT50 at the right level - the HD500 and  DT50 are matched up to do this with the Master and Channel volumes dimed  on the lower gain amps or set to 50% on the high gain amps.  This gets  the signal from the HD500 hitting the EL34s at the level they should for the correct preamp to poweramp interaction (just like in a real valve amp - I won't bore you with the  technicalities on this).

What this does is it makes the Drive on the  amp (HD500) the volume control that you would find on a real valve amp  (the modelled amps that don't have a drive control just use the volume  as the drive).  You can use the Channel volume on the models like a  valve amp master volume but just like a valve amp master volume, it  lowers the level before hitting the poweramp valves, so it sucks away  the tone you get from driving the poweramp valves (just like the master  volume control on a real valve amp).

The result is, when you set it up  correctly, the HD500 and DT50 behave like the amp being modelled.  My  favourites are the Vox AC30 and Fender Bassman, I swear, it's just like  playing the real thing.  The key thing that people need to appreciate when  using this type of modelling is that the levels for each amp are  completely different.  So you have to approach this as switching between  a real Bassman and a real Marshall JCM800 there are going to be huge differences  in levels.  I would use this type of modelling for recordings and for  gigs where I would want to use a single amp setup per set or for the  entire gig.  Sort of like changing between real amps during a show. This is nothing like how the Vetta does its modelling.

For  changing amps on a patch by patch basis, the way to go is to use the  full amp models and set the DT50s up to work as clean amplification for  those full models.

Cheers,

Crusty



Re: Tip for Vetta owners: HD500 + DT50(s)
by Brandon on 2010-12-24 17:04:51

So it sounds like you're saying that unless you can really crank the DT50, the full amp models are the way to go.



Re: Tip for Vetta owners: HD500 + DT50(s)
by Crusty_Old_Rocker on 2010-12-24 17:14:31

Not necessarily, you can lower the channel volume which mimics the master volume of a valve amp.  But you will sacrifice the tone you get from driving the poweramp section.

This is nothing unusual and is characteristic of valve amps.   The way to get a valve amp to really sing is to drive the power amp section.  This is why the little 5 Watt amps are becoming very popular, you can really drive them hard so they sound great without being too loud - great for bedroom players.

But if you want the tonal characteristics of a driven power amp section at low volume, then the full amp models are the way to go.

Cheers,

Crusty



Re: Tip for Vetta owners: HD500 + DT50(s)
by Nick_Mattocks on 2010-12-25 06:35:50

Crusty_Old_Rocker wrote:

I just wanted to provide some insight for people who are used to the Vetta II and are looking to transition to the HD500 + DT50.

There are two very different ways that the HD500 and DT50 do their  modelling magic. I'll explaing both ways, but will start with how to get things working like the Vetta II.

This first way is similar to the Vetta II where you use the  full amp models while the DT50(s) just provide the amplification and  speakers (like using an Atomic amp with a POD).  The POD HD500 has DT50 output routing  options that give you amp A and amp B to different DT50s (without post  effects).  This is equivalent to the wide mode on the Vetta II output  settings.  Or you can have the post effects which sum the two amp tones and  apply the effects to produce a stereo output, which is just like the Normal mode on the Vetta II output settings.

I really have to make it clear that to have the HD500 and DT50 working similar to the Vetta, it can only be  done using the full amp models and setting the DT50 purely for clean  amplification (NFL I, class A and use the half power on the master  volume if needed).

The other way the HD500 and DT50(s) work is by  actually becoming the amps being modelled (I don't know a better way to  describe it). This takes a different approach to amp modelling.  The full amp models in the HD500 actually model the interaction between preamp and poweramp of the modelled valve amps.  When using the PRE models, this interaction is REAL rather than modelled.

What you do is use the PRE models in the HD500 and let  the DT50 use the correct poweramp configuration for the PRE models this  is very, very different to the Vetta.  For this to work correctly, you  need to HIT the poweramp in the DT50 at the right level - the HD500 and  DT50 are matched up to do this with the Master and Channel volumes dimed  on the lower gain amps or set to 50% on the high gain amps.  This gets  the signal from the HD500 hitting the EL34s at the level they should for the correct preamp to poweramp interaction (just like in a real valve amp - I won't bore you with the  technicalities on this).

What this does is it makes the Drive on the  amp (HD500) the volume control that you would find on a real valve amp  (the modelled amps that don't have a drive control just use the volume  as the drive).  You can use the Channel volume on the models like a  valve amp master volume but just like a valve amp master volume, it  lowers the level before hitting the poweramp valves, so it sucks away  the tone you get from driving the poweramp valves (just like the master  volume control on a real valve amp).

The result is, when you set it up  correctly, the HD500 and DT50 behave like the amp being modelled.  My  favourites are the Vox AC30 and Fender Bassman, I swear, it's just like  playing the real thing.  The key thing that people need to appreciate when  using this type of modelling is that the levels for each amp are  completely different.  So you have to approach this as switching between  a real Bassman and a real Marshall JCM800 there are going to be huge differences  in levels.  I would use this type of modelling for recordings and for  gigs where I would want to use a single amp setup per set or for the  entire gig.  Sort of like changing between real amps during a show. This is nothing like how the Vetta does its modelling.

For  changing amps on a patch by patch basis, the way to go is to use the  full amp models and set the DT50s up to work as clean amplification for  those full models.

Cheers,

Crusty

+1 - this is indeed how it works.  Nice outline there Crusty



Re: Tip for Vetta owners: HD500 + DT50(s)
by Crusty_Old_Rocker on 2010-12-26 02:11:34

Thanks Nick.

I really did struggle when I was trying to use the PRE models like the Vetta II.  Then once I learned that there were two completely different approaches to the amp modelling available and that the correct method to use for Vetta style amp modelling was the full amp model approach, it all made much more sense.  Now I am getting the tones I want with the same versatility as the Vetta II.

Cheers,

Crusty



Re: Tip for Vetta owners: HD500 + DT50(s)
by Nick_Mattocks on 2010-12-26 05:29:46

Yeah - it's not like the days where we had just one amp to worry about.  These new fangled toys just give us too darned much choice (nah - not really LOL) and we ARE spoiled rotten with all this modelling technology .  There's so many variations with a DT50 and an HD500/400/300 that it makes my head spin in reality, and a 'lightbulb moment' that causes you to realise that there's more than one approach is always good isn't it.  I don't get many of those these days, but when I do - wow....

I look forward to perhaps seeing some of your HD500/DT50 PRE tones up on Custom Tone.  Have you done any good ones for the current Variax BTW? - those would be good to see

All the best

Nick



Re: Tip for Vetta owners: HD500 + DT50(s)
by francisb on 2010-12-30 18:47:52

Thanks Crusty,

Really useful info, I'm still waiting for my DT50, but I'm doing some test using the Preamp only... and speaking of which have you notice that even when setting the cab to None the Mic do still affect the tone, I was wondering what you were doing with them in your case? Are you using one in particular with your preamp? Do you know if this has been flag to Line 6, it really must be a bug... I can't think of a reason where you would want to use no cab, but still be stuck with mic modeling, no?



Re: Tip for Vetta owners: HD500 + DT50(s)
by Crusty_Old_Rocker on 2010-12-30 21:09:26

When connected to the DT50 your output should be set to Combo PWRAMP or Stack PWRAMP depending on whether you have the DT50 combo or head.  When this output mode is selected the mic modelling should disappear from the tone.

Cheers,

Crusty



Re: Tip for Vetta owners: HD500 + DT50(s)
by francisb on 2010-12-31 06:07:28

Ok good to know, I notice it while in Studio Direct since I was connected to my computer... isn't it a weird behavior nonetheless?

Thanks.



Re: Tip for Vetta owners: HD500 + DT50(s)
by gtrman100 on 2010-12-31 07:51:33

Crusty_Old_Rocker wrote:

When connected to the DT50 your output should be set to Combo PWRAMP or Stack PWRAMP depending on whether you have the DT50 combo or head.  When this output mode is selected the mic modelling should disappear from the tone.

Cheers,

Crusty

Crusty: I don't know if you saw this post from Line 6 Andy in the 'Advanced Manual' thread...

:"Re: Where is the advanced manual for the DT50?

"The correct output mode for the DT50 is "whatever sounds best" to your ear.  As a demostrator for the POD HD series with the DT-50, I put the POD HD in "live" mode" to defeat the cab and mic modeling (which you don't need if you are actually comeing through a cab), then I create my presets with the "preamp" rather than the "full amp models, which allows the power amp of the DT-50 to "work its magic".

So I'm assuming there is no "right" output mode of the HD500 for the DT50 according to official Line 6 doctrine. I feel the way you do, I'm using Combo Power Amp and it sounds great, but I guess I'll do some more experimentation and see what I come up with.

Best,

Gtrman 100



Re: Tip for Vetta owners: HD500 + DT50(s)
by Texxxxx on 2010-12-31 08:11:49

I belive that in the quote you are using from Line 6 Andy, he is actually referring to an HD400.  As far as I know, the 500 doesn't have anything specifically called the 'live' mode, but the 400 does.



Re: Tip for Vetta owners: HD500 + DT50(s)
by gtrman100 on 2010-12-31 11:50:53

He didn't specifically mention the 400 or 500, the 500 Combo and Stack Power amp modes are described in the manual as "live" modes. But I think the most important statement he made was that the "correct output mode is whatever sounds best". That's why I'm thinking that there is no recommended HD output mode for the DT50.



Re: Tip for Vetta owners: HD500 + DT50(s)
by Texxxxx on 2011-01-01 10:02:39

Thanks, I missed that in the 500 manual about the 'live' modes.



Re: Tip for Vetta owners: HD500 + DT50(s)
by Crusty_Old_Rocker on 2011-01-01 20:43:13

gtrman100 wrote:

Crusty_Old_Rocker wrote:

When connected to the DT50 your output should be set to Combo PWRAMP or Stack PWRAMP depending on whether you have the DT50 combo or head.  When this output mode is selected the mic modelling should disappear from the tone.

Cheers,

Crusty

Crusty: I don't know if you saw this post from Line 6 Andy in the 'Advanced Manual' thread...

:"Re: Where is the advanced manual for the DT50?

"The correct output mode for the DT50 is "whatever sounds best" to your ear.  As a demostrator for the POD HD series with the DT-50, I put the POD HD in "live" mode" to defeat the cab and mic modeling (which you don't need if you are actually comeing through a cab), then I create my presets with the "preamp" rather than the "full amp models, which allows the power amp of the DT-50 to "work its magic".

So I'm assuming there is no "right" output mode of the HD500 for the DT50 according to official Line 6 doctrine. I feel the way you do, I'm using Combo Power Amp and it sounds great, but I guess I'll do some more experimentation and see what I come up with.

Best,

Gtrman 100

Yes, the live output modes are the combo and stack settings on the HD500.

I have it on very good authority that the Power Amp settings for combo and stack within the HD series have been voiced specifically for the DT50 amps.  This makes perfect sense because why would Line 6 voice the modelling to suit a Marshall, Fender, Peavey or Mesa Boogie amp when they have designed and built an amp (from the ground up) specifically to work with their own HD series modellers.

That's why I use the "Live Mode" combo poweramp settings for both my DT50 212 combos when connected to the HD500.

So, while it always comes down to whatever sounds best for you and that is the standard recommendation, the HD PODs and DT50 amps have been designed to work together and part of that design is the voicing of the live output modes.  To me, that appears to be the most logical way to get the modelling from the gear sounding right.

Cheers,

Crusty



Re: Tip for Vetta owners: HD500 + DT50(s)
by Crusty_Old_Rocker on 2011-01-01 20:50:32

Texxxxx wrote:

I belive that in the quote you are using from Line 6 Andy, he is actually referring to an HD400.  As far as I know, the 500 doesn't have anything specifically called the 'live' mode, but the 400 does.

You're right Texxxxx, the title of this thread is: Tip for Vetta owners:  HD500 + DT50(s)

The reason I posted the thread was to help Vetta owners migrate to the POD HD500 (which has dual amp modelling) and DT50.

Cheers,

Crusty



Re: Tip for Vetta owners: HD500 + DT50(s) - Addendum
by Crusty_Old_Rocker on 2011-01-12 20:16:50

Just to bring things up to date with the latest firmware within the HD500.

There are now 2 pages of controls for multiple DT50s.  This delivers greater control over the amps and gives greater flexibility to people who want to use the HD500 for effects only and use the native amp tone of the DT50s.

See: http://l6c.scdn.line6.net/data/l/0a06434d35a94d264bada4bea/application/pdf/L6LINK%20Connectivity%20Guide%20for%20POD%20HD%20&%20DT50%20%28Rev%20A%29%20-%20English.pdf

Butremember if you want to use the full amp models and stereo output, build you patches to use the NFL I, Class A mode.

Cheers,

Crusty



Re: Tip for Vetta owners: HD500 + DT50(s) - Addendum
by michellenweiter on 2011-01-20 06:27:01

Is there a way to connect the HD500 to the Vetta, to keep using the Vetta as  Poweramp and Cab.

How would it compare to the HD500/DT50 about sound and flexibility?

cheers

mitch



Re: Tip for Vetta owners: HD500 + DT50(s) - Addendum
by Nick_Mattocks on 2011-01-20 11:46:26

michellenweiter wrote:

Is there a way to connect the HD500 to the Vetta, to keep using the Vetta as  Poweramp and Cab.

How would it compare to the HD500/DT50 about sound and flexibility?

cheers

mitch

Yes of course.

Plug a dummy jack into the Vetta' front guitar input.

Set the output level matching switch on the POD to LINE

Set the output mode in the POD to Combo Pwr Amp

Plug the Left and Right 1/4" outputs from the HD500 into the Vetta;s L/R FX return sockets

Set the Vetta Master Volume to a relatively low level at first

Find your loudest preset in the HD500 and adjust the HD500 Master Volume to a suitable level where there is no evidence of overloading (clipping) the Vetta;s power amp

Turn up the Vetta's Master Volume to a level you want to play at

Match all the HD500 presets you want to use with the Vetta to the first preset you used as above

With minor adjustements, that should do what you want.

Obviously you don't get the ability to switch the valve output stage topology and class like you do with L6 Link and the DT50.  You might want to experiemnet with using FULL amp models in your HD500 patches whereas with the DT50 you'd probably use PRE amp models because that's the way the HD500/DT50 relationship works best generally.

I have an old but nice DuoVerb which I don't think is a million miles away from the Vetta's output stage, and the HD500 does sound very good through it, so I would certainly not expect any worse performance putting the HD500 through a Vetta

Compared to using the HD500 with a DT50, the DT50 has the edge for me over the DuoVerb - but it does have special features that make it work better with the HD500 and other HD's.  The Vetta will effectively be a good stereo power amp where as two DT50's will move with the selection of amp models in the HD

Regards

Nick



Re: Tip for Vetta owners: HD500 + DT50(s) - Addendum
by Trevor_Arthurson on 2011-01-21 01:18:58

You could also try using the S/PDIF out on the HD500 to the S/PDIF in on the Vetta II.




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