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Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by AZGdude on 2011-01-19 11:48:40

Last Updated April 6th

On March 25th, Line 6 released firmware version 1.22 that is supposed to address this bug and a bunch of others. The general consensus to this update is that it improves the sound quality of  many amp models, but many still feel it is not completely fixed. On April 5th Line 6 announced firmware 1.3 that adds a few new amp models and a bunch of amp controls that may possibly make this problem a thing of the past. This update is supposed to be released by the end of April. So we should know soon.

I have changed the status of this tread to "Answered", even though it is currently not, because this thread has grown extremely long and unwieldy making it impossible  to track all the different discussions. Please start new threads that  address more specific issues so they can be more easily digested. Thanks  to everyone who participated in this epic thread! AZGDude.

I thought I would try to summarize this thread since it has become MONSTER sized with over 50 pages and gone off track many times making it difficult to to find useful information in it.

Here is the original post that stared it all.

AZGdude wrote:

I have now had a HD500 for about a month now and I am pretty happy with it overall. But some of the amp models have a very harsh and fizzy top end when strumming chords hard. It is most noticeable to me with the AC30, Blackface Double and Hiway 100, but I also hear it with a few other models. I spent a couple of hours last night trying to get a nice sounding Vox AC30, but was not able to create a sound nearly as good as one of the AC30 presets in Amplitube 3 or from what I remember from playing a real AC30. All the HD AC30 presets I have tried or created always sounded to harsh and fizzy and if I dialed out the harshness I also lost the AC30 chime.

Are others finding similar problems? I am wondering if it is a problem with the HD500 or something with my setup. I have an ESP LP copy with Seymour Duncans (JB bridge, 59 neck) and run directly from the HD 1/4 outs to KRK Rokit 6's. I have tried changing "Guitar In" from normal to PAD, but it does not seem to change much. All the same equipment sounds great when playing AC30 presets in Amplitube 3 (except I am using a Alesis i02 Express as the interface between guitar and monitors). Anyone having similar problems or know a solution?

The Problem:

The HD500 (and possibly the HD400 and HD300) produces a distinct digital clipping noise or fizzy higher frequency hash/white/beehive noise when strumming chords hard. It only seems to happen on full amp models that include the preamp and poweramp and is most audible in cleaner amps like the Fender Twin Reverb and Hiwatt. From my experience the HD500 exhibits the fizzy hash/white/beehive noise when it is nearing its dynamic range ceiling, and the digital clipping sound when it surpasses the ceiling.

Everyone does NOT seem to have this problem, and those that do don't have a problem plugged into any other amp or modeler. Different guitars react very differently when plugged into the HD. Since originally posting this question I have given into GAS and bought a new Fender American Deluxe Strat with N3 pickups and S1 switching. I have quickly realized there is a world of difference in the sound quality of the two guitars plugged into the HD500. The Strat sounds incredible with an airy and large dynamic range  and large tonal variances depending on touch, selected pickups, volume and tone  control settings, plus there is little or no sign of digital clipping or hash/white noise. The Strat also seems to work substantially better with overdrives, compressors and other effects on the HD. Conversely, my ESP with Seymour Duncan 59/JB HB pickups sounds very compressed and hashy, like the amp models are pushed to the absolute edge of what they can handle. I am guessing this is how Nigel Tufnel's amps sound at eleven  Not at all the way it sounds plugged into other amps and equipment. Plugged into other amps and equipment the ESP has a warmer sound with stronger bass content which may be part of the problem (see comments below about frequency).

Out of curiosity I crudely checked the voltage output  of both guitars using a cheap voltage meter (as suggest long ago by  Crusty). With the Strat I maxed out at ~16mV with single coils and  ~300mV with the three single coils in series. With the HB guitar I maxed out at ~900mV with the JB in the bridge position. The 59 maxed out at 300mV - 400mV. My understanding is that anything under 1000mV is considered normal for a guitar, but it makes me wonder if  voltage plays any part in this problem?

There are two lines of thought as to the source of the problem. The leading theory is it's a software issue that is brought out by certain guitars or pickups. The problem does not seem to be based strictly on how hot pickups are, because some people with low output Strats have the problem, but more related to specific frequencies. Recently a forum member did some testing and found that the clipping and fizz is more audible in lower frequencies. His full post can be found here. This theory is supported by multiple people exchanging their malfunctioning HD500 for a new unit only to find they still have the exact same problem. Two, there is a bad batch of HD500s that have a hardware issue. This theory is supported by how random the problem is and how difficult it is for others to duplicate. The problem has been thoroughly discussed and documented on this forum and over at the TPG. Here are a few links to the highlights in this tread.

Description and Samples originally posed on TGP

More info from Joe

Workarounds:

Volume Pedal:

Meambobbo first suggested a workaround on page 26 using a studio EQ that then morphed into this volume pedal workaround which seems to work relatively well for the digital clipping issue, a little less so for the fizzy white noise issue.

  1. Insert volume pedal at beginning of signal chain.
  2. Push toe down so the volume pedal is at 100% max.
  3. Reduce  the max volume % till clipping and any unwanted fizz/beehive/white  noise fades away. With my equipment I usually find the max volume %  needs to be set somewhere between 65% and 90%.
  4. Create patch,  adjust the volume pedal % max up or down as working on patch till where  the amp sounds its best without clipping or noise, but the max volume %  is as high as possible.
  5. Save preset and go jam.

The  good thing about this workaround is you still have a working volume  pedal. It just scales between 0% and whatever max % you set. The down  sides are that it may make your sound more compressed, does not seem to work as well at taming the beehive with medium gain amps like the AC30 as it does with low gain amps, you lose 1 of your efx slots, it may have other impacts on signal/sound quality and may not work on the HD300 and HD400.

Input and Mixer Setup:

There is another workaround that might help reduce this problem and hiss and other general noise problem in the HD500. Setting the input selection to Input 1: Guitar, Input 2: Variax and centering the mixer pan controls. Full details on this issue can be found in this thread.

Reporting a Bug to Line 6:

If you want Line 6 to really pay attention to this problem here are a few things you can do.

  1. Go to the product feedback page and log a bug report.
  2. Reply to this forum thread saying you are also having a problem.
  3. Call Line 6 about your problem at (818) 575-3600 (North America) or +44 (0) 1327 302 700 (Europe).

I will try to update this first post if there are updates on this topic. Please let me know if you think I should add anything else to this post to clarify the issue.

Message was edited by: AZGdude



Re: Harsh/Fizzy Sound on Some Amp Models
by variableresults on 2011-01-19 11:52:59

Have you updated to firmware 1.20?  I believe if you look in the master Bug thread that this issue may have been addressed (I say may because I'm not sure what you're mentioning is the issue that is logged as "fixed")?



Re: Harsh/Fizzy Sound on Some Amp Models
by AZGdude on 2011-01-19 11:59:09

Thanks for the quick response. Yes, I have firmware 1.2 installed. I will have to look at the bug list again and see if I see something similar listed.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy Sound on Some Amp Models
by jeff5x0 on 2011-01-19 12:57:14

Just a heads up AZ, I too am having the same problem with those amps mentioned, espescially the Vox 30. I cannot get it to sound like a Vox at all. I just thought it was user error. I have downloaded stilwell's patches as the guy is magic in getting that U2 tone, but its very distorted and harsh on my strat. Its a shame because I love the clean chime of this amp. I hope it gets fixed, but just wanted you to know you are not the only one struggling with those amps.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy Sound on Some Amp Models
by phil_m on 2011-01-19 13:11:55

What kind of pickups do you have in your Strat?  Do you have the pad on guitar input?  I don't notice anything weird on the AC30 model with either of my Strats.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy Sound on Some Amp Models
by AZGdude on 2011-01-19 13:39:29

jeff5x0 wrote:

Just a heads up AZ, I too am having the same problem with those amps mentioned, espescially the Vox 30. I cannot get it to sound like a Vox at all. I just thought it was user error. I have downloaded stilwell's patches as the guy is magic in getting that U2 tone, but its very distorted and harsh on my strat. Its a shame because I love the clean chime of this amp. I hope it gets fixed, but just wanted you to know you are not the only one struggling with those amps.

I guess it is good to know that I am not alone

It seems to be most noticeable to me on the lower gain amps when pushed to the edge of breakup and beyond. I think the Hiway 100 does it more than any other model for me. So much so that I really don't like using it. The AC30 is a close second followed by the Blackface double, Super O and Tweed B-Man. It might be there in all the amp models, but less noticeable because of the higher gain levels?



Re: Harsh/Fizzy Sound on Some Amp Models
by spaceatl on 2011-01-19 14:15:58

And you are in studio mode using KRKs?...I assume that you probably are...But FIZZ on that many models makes me wonder...

I tweak with nearfields also...AC30 is fine for me...I am on 1.20 on the HD400...



Re: Harsh/Fizzy Sound on Some Amp Models
by AZGdude on 2011-01-19 14:36:20

spaceatl wrote:

And you are in studio mode using KRKs?...I assume that you probably are...But claiming FIZZ on that many models makes me wonder...

I tweak with nearfields also...AC30 is fine for me...I am on 1.20 on the HD400...

I am running "Studio Direct" mode with FW 1.20. Tried turning PAD on and off with little effect.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy Sound on Some Amp Models
by spaceatl on 2011-01-19 14:41:53

I hear that KRKs can be fairly analytical...I don't have any and maybe this is a reach (No DeathKlock Intended)...

I have a pair of Sony CDR3000 cans that are very analytical...They are very good for hearing everything...They aren't so great for easier listening if that makes any sense...I only mention it because you are bringing up the "Harsh" description...I find my CDR3000s to be harsh too...They are made to hear everything flat...They are less enjoyable to listen too...just a thought is all...have you tried other means of monitoring?



Re: Harsh/Fizzy Sound on Some Amp Models
by jeff5x0 on 2011-01-19 15:14:19

I get the shrill ness/peaking going studio direct and going into the power amp of my sv in combo output. It doesnt change at all with the pad selected. Maybe Im doing something wrong, but that was the whole reason I downloaded stilwells real thing patch. Any digging in with the pick or even medium strumming and it distorts out and real nasty sounding. Ive tried pre, no cab (which doesnt put out much volume), full with cab, pre with cab. I just cant get it to sound right. Im not at all saying none of you can. Ive seen videos on youtube of it sounding great. I just cant get it there. (must be me)



Re: Harsh/Fizzy Sound on Some Amp Models
by AZGdude on 2011-01-19 16:12:20

Turns out there is a REAL long tread over at the Gear Page that seems to be discussing this exact problem. I think they concluded that the problem is power amp clipping caused by certain types of pickups. Nevertheless it sounds real bad when strumming hard and the PAD switch does not help. Not sure what to next? Return it or hope it can be fixed in a firmware update?

http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?t=795538



Re: Harsh/Fizzy Sound on Some Amp Models
by AZGdude on 2011-01-19 16:31:24

Also looks like it has been discussed on this forum.

http://line6.com/community/thread/47447?start=0&tstart=0



Re: Harsh/Fizzy Sound on Some Amp Models
by catalano on 2011-01-19 16:31:55

Just wanted to chime in that I had the same initial experience when I first got my unit.  I think I may have become oblivious to it since, though....

But I thought it was interesting because I'm using a Gibson LP with the same pups (JB and a 59).  And when I first noticed it I had the 1/4" outs plugged into powered monitors as well.  Mine were Behringer B2030's.  I have not updated to 1.2 yet because of some of the comments here and a lack of clarity about what was actually fixed.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy Sound on Some Amp Models
by AZGdude on 2011-01-19 18:13:42

catalano wrote:

Just wanted to chime in that I had the same initial experience when I first got my unit.  I think I may have become oblivious to it since, though....

But I thought it was interesting because I'm using a Gibson LP with the same pups (JB and a 59).

Interesting that you have become oblivious to it. I am definitely going in the opposite direction. The more I play it the more I hear it. It really ruins some great amp models. I have not tried it myself yet, but apparently using the preamp models does not cause this digital clipping noise so the problem must be in the poweramp models?



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by AZGdude on 2011-01-20 07:52:21

I did a little testing last night and came to the following conclusions.

  1. If I select a new empty tone (or go into tuner mode) I can play chords from very soft to very hard with no or little digital clipping/fizz noise.
  2. Once I add any full amp model (nothing else added) I start getting digital clipping/fizzyness when I play chords hard to very hard. It is very unpleasant and unnatural sound and does not happen with real tube amps.
  3. Selecting a preamp model exibites little or no digital clipping/fizz.
  4. Turning PAD on/off does not remove the digital clipping/fizz noise. It only lowers the volume a little.

I do not have another guitar to test this with, but apparently it does not happen with all guitars. But it seems that certain pickups are more likely to cause it, like a Seymour Duncan JB.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by AZGdude on 2011-01-20 09:10:10

One more thing that I forgot to mention.

I can get Amplitube 3 to sound similarly harsh/fizzy by turning the  guitar input up on my computer interface (Alesis iO2 Express) to where  the input signal is too hot.

This situation is really bumming me out since I really love the HD500 except for this problem. Wish I knew if this is going to get fixed via a firmware update or not?



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by catalano on 2011-01-20 09:18:32

I read through that entire gearpage thread and I think the problem has been identified.  It seems to be the power amp model on these clean amps (and possibly all amps) that is causing the problems with humbuckers.  On page 11 or so of that thread someone posted a series of audio clips.  What they did was start with an empty patch, put the fender twin in it and strum some chords.  You can hear the digital fuzziness.  Then he disabled the cab on that patch and the problem was even more noticable.  Then he swapped out the amp for the pre model and the problem was gone.  So it seems that there could be a problem with the modeling of the power amp sections of these amps and that's what Line6 should take a look at.  Again the problem seems to be more prevalent with humbuckers for whatever reason.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by AZGdude on 2011-01-20 09:37:43

I went back and listened to those clips again (found them on page 12) now that I have my laptop connect to my studio monitors and found they pretty much sounds exactly like the problem I am hearing. I wish someone from Line 6 would acknowledge this is a bug and is being worked on.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by jeff5x0 on 2011-01-20 15:27:02

Well the problem is, its just not specifically to humbuckers. Its doing it on my start with stock single coils. The pad doesnt help. Ive seen videos on youtube with guys playing hiwatt model, tweed model, vox model and there is no clipping. They sound fantastic. But with mine, there is clipping going on. I have a Fender Start (stock pickups) and a Gibson Les Paul with EMGs. Its there on both of them. I dont know if this is a bug specific to just a few units, or if I am doing something wrong. But theres no question its there. It stinks because the Vox is the one I need alot of in the church setting. I can get around with the Blackface Dbl turning the gain really low and pumping up the mixer to match levels for now, but I am curious if Line 6 has looked into this or had other complaints about it.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by spaceatl on 2011-01-20 15:42:24

pickups too close to the strings maybe? here is how you can isolate some things if there is real clipping...record a clip of the HD500 doing this clipping...if your DAW. can do it, split the guitar output and record the guitar straight at the same time. open the file in a wav editor and find the clipping...check the dry track...if there is clipping in the source, then the 500 is less likely the culprit...just a thought...



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by jeff5x0 on 2011-01-20 15:56:11

Hey Space thanks for replying! Its funny, because my pickups were to high.........last week when I took my guitar in to get set up lol. I have had the same guy set up my guitar for years and when I changed the pickguard on my strat a few weeks ago, I did raise the pickups to high. But like I said I just had it set up last Friday. Im not at all saying that still cant be the issue. But its unlikely that both of my guitars and AZ's and all of the people who are bringing up this problem over at gear page have their pickups too high. Your suggestion on finding out though is indeed a great one. I have reaper (though I just downloaded it 3 days ago), but I do not know yet if I have that capability.

Im not trying to complain or cause a stink here, Im just trying to find out if me, az, and others are doing something wrong, or if indeed we have issues with our units. Like I said, I have heard what the sims are suppose to sound like on youtbe.....mine clips unlike those on youtube. Let me see if I can do what you suggest. And thanks a ton for the suggestion. I got mad respect for you dating back to  the SV forum.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by spaceatl on 2011-01-20 16:09:22

Thanks for that...just trying figure this out...pickups can clip for a LOT of different reasons...



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by jeff5x0 on 2011-01-20 18:21:35

I just listened to those clips as well AZ. That is exactly what the Pod is doing in my situation. Very frustrating. Im finding its doing it in the studio direct mode and combo power amp mode.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by jeff5x0 on 2011-01-20 18:25:30

Heres a link to one of the sound clips if anyone else is interested. http://www.soundclick.com/bands/page_songInfo.cfm?bandID=1116708&songID=9818106



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by AZGdude on 2011-01-20 19:47:02

I double checked my pickup heights and they are at the recommended heights according to Seymour Duncan. I tried lowering a little and it did not help, plus I did not like the sound as well.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by AZGdude on 2011-01-20 19:54:49

Hey Jeff,

I agree that those sound clips are really spot on for demonstrating the problem. Now if someone at Line 6 would listen to them and report a bug it would be helpful.

In the meantime I would suggest everyone with this problem make there own bug report to the Line 6 product feedback page.

http://line6.com/company/contact/productfeedback/



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by dbarabe on 2011-01-20 20:04:39

Hi guys,    

I'm getting the same issue than you with both of my guitars, one Gibson SG with original humbucker pickups, and with my ESP LTD with active EMG's pickups.  I'm using the latest firmware 1.2, Studio direct, using the Pad switch and get the clipping on headsets and/or on the PA.  I tried to decrease the volume from my guitar but this changed the dynamics but did'nt resolve the clipping.  It looks like I can't get a good clean sound.  Me too I can't wait for the next firmware update and hoping that this issue will be fixed.  My pickups are not that high to strings.

Does anybody had this issue with humbuckers, and was able to fix it?

Dan



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by spaceatl on 2011-01-20 20:21:18

I am going to check this out on the 400 as soon as I can...just have not had the time to sit down with it in the studio...this weekend sometime...



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by mrasmodeus on 2011-01-21 10:10:36

I'm waiting to get home so I can listen to these clips. I've been having a minor noise problem and this sounds like it from its description.

When I stop playing, there's almost like a 'sigh' sound that also sounds low rez digitized, right? Some have it more like a quickish jangly buzz. I htink the buzz was more on the marshall or uber model. Not playing a lot of tube amps in the past, I took it as extraneous noises from the modelled poweramp section.

Backing down teh amp gain helped, backing down the presence helped, but not a lot. It's either loud enough or far enough up in something else that a noise gate at the very end won't kill it, or at the least, I stopped when the gate was basically killing almost any sustained note.

I just figured that's how some of this old analog junk sounded when cranked up, pushed, abused, etc.. I'll confirm as well on speakers, those recordings when i get home.The Vetta IIRC had one or two models like that, but they were supposed to do that.

For reference, I've used it on the following guitars with the same result:

Epiphone Les Paul w EMGs

Monson Custom Wizard 7 w Duncan JB 7's


HD500

Going into a single Mackie Th-15 active PA wedge.

New XLR cable, new guitar cable.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by jeff5x0 on 2011-01-21 11:39:36

What youre talking about mrasmodeus, if I am hearing you right is a slight artifact after the note has been played. Now that could be attributed to the "amp characteristic". What we are talking about is digital clipping. Where the clean sound distorts when you strum hard. Now I have notice some "ghost notes" on certain models, and I can deal with that because it is a characteristic of some amps. The digital clipping is not. Take a listen to some of the samples and see if your amp is doing the same. Its primarily on the cleaner amp models for me. Let us know!



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by mrasmodeus on 2011-01-21 16:53:48

Finally found a working sample (the ones in the gear page threads were dead) and yeah, that's not the noises I'm getting at all. I have gotten that kind of sound in the samples here from some solid state amps when i had distortion going into a distortion channel. This isn't the same case, but the principle might be the same, but how it is escapes me right now, but something is nagging me about what it is.  I don't know the intimate internals of the HD, but I'm assuming it goes through an AD converter and then back at some point, could the converter be shoddy?

Ah well, I'll debug my 'sigh' elsewhere so this thread doesn't get hijacked. I'm hearing it on all amps so far.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by jeff5x0 on 2011-01-22 09:10:52

Bump



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by AZGdude on 2011-01-23 08:40:58

Any update spaceatl? I was trying to explain this problem to a friend the other day and I came up with the following analogy that I think explains it pretty well. As strumming harder and harder the sound keeps gets louder and more broken up, as it should, until suddenly the HD hits a ceiling and the sound suddenly explodes into a fizzy/digital clipping noise. Very unpleasant and unnatural sounding.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by JB1973 on 2011-01-23 11:42:29

I have the hd500 and using the dt50 2x12

I have to agree in part to the digital/fizziness on some models but a few of the models sound really really good no matter the volume or strum hardness I put in to them. Some of the low gain models though require maxing out to come close to the volume level of the other amps which make it near impossible to use them together in a set list or for parts of a song. Now If I attempt to use the podhd outside of the dt50 I find my sound is much more digital sounding if being routed to a PA or small amp and due to this I have not even attempted at recording new songs (which is what I do allot in my spare time) using the line outs on the podhd. L6 promised 16 fantastic models is much better than a 100 so so models. I agree with this statement...although I think L6 has some tweeking to do fo fullfill that promise, or at least to out and out (which they never do) say which models are designed to work with certain guitars/pickups and what settings are suggested. But the volume differences between patches, podlooper when used with dt50, strange volume wackiness random on dt50. I say tweeking definitely will be L6's forte for a bit (at least it better be).



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by jeff5x0 on 2011-01-23 13:12:20

I agree wholeheartedly with everything you said JD.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by spaceatl on 2011-01-24 08:37:38

I don't have much yet...No chance to get in the studio so I can do some analysis...I did go through the Uber on 1.2 on the HD400 a little bit for that other thread just trying to get under how it is now as I have not used that model much...Still a ways to go on that one as I have to do a rollback and there jsut has not been much time...

With the HD400 alone I am not getting anything like harsh clipping on the models I use...I wondering if this is something later in the chain or the playback system for people that get this...Not sure...



AC30 Top Boost model
by Brion_Kean on 2011-01-24 10:31:32

Just so I am on the same page with everyone, this is the "top boost" AC30 model? It features, instead of "mid" control, a dial called "cut", which when turned coutner-clockwise actually removes treble from the signal.

My "go-to" patch building default these days, for a quickie 'standard' to dial in pretty much any of the amp models is this:

guitar in > [noise gate > wah > tube-comp > tube-drive > [amp model] > boost comp > volume pedal > stereo delay > reverb spring '67]

Here is that patch, for the AC30 TB, with each of the 8 mic-models. (1-5 first post, 6-8 next post, then sound clips)

-Brion



Re: AC30 Top Boost model
by Brion_Kean on 2011-01-24 10:32:14

patches



Re: AC30 Top Boost model
by Brion_Kean on 2011-01-24 11:30:21

Tweaked those a little; same layout, slightly diff settings on noise gate and "master" compression effect (which acts as a sort of master volume for recording levels - driving the amp vol harder just compresses the signal more)

Recordings are just done as simple-as-possible for this, namely, USB to computer, to Adobe Audition. Recorded at 24/48, saved-as to MP3 with AA, to 256kbps/48k mp3. Something vaguery not uber-lossy

Will do a quick clip thing runnign thru each "mic" of the 8..  For these clips, it's the 4038 ribbon mic. (stock cab)



Re: AC30 Top Boost model
by Brion_Kean on 2011-01-24 12:34:52

clips, no reverb, no wah, no delay (except for one quick bit). on/off with compressor and drive, pickup selection, etc.

tried to play sim. themes in each clip, open E chord thing, little Petty "Free Fallin" with the chimey F-C-Am-G progression



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by AZGdude on 2011-01-25 07:49:37

Brion, thanks for all the effort to put your posts together. It gives me something more to play around with to try and find a AC30 sound I really like. Unfortunately, I am still finding the same harsh/fizzy/digital clipping issue with these patches. I believe along with others that there is something wrong with the power amp simulation or guitar input on the HD's that causes some guitars/pickups to have this problem. Hopefully a future firmware update can address this issue.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by Mrwonka on 2011-01-25 09:27:01

I think Brion_Kean covered it.

Class A-30 TB is the only amp I've found possible so get a non clipping clean sound out of using a les paul.  Its a humbucker thing indeed and line6 needs to figure out how to fix for the other amps.

the whole trick to getting the tone you want is lower the drive to around 20, but crank up ch. vol all the way.  THe only way to remove the clipping distortion bullshit is do this.  so your gonna need a booster as well.  so for FX, u need a noise gate, then vetta comp.  the veta comp will help boost the signal a bit.  I only use it on lvl 25.

In the mixer section...crank those main mix on both side to max.  only way to get a loud enough signal.  I know its goofy, but only way to do it.

add some delay chorus and you'll have yourself a beauty.

It as the only clean amp that worked.  all the other ones are garbage if your playing through a les paul or if your humbuckers are maybe to hot.  not sure...but that's the story.

great thread.  hopefully line6 can address this issue.  its basically why everyone who is playing with humbucks can't use the U2 patchers.  they clip like crazy and sound so fake and processed.  I'm willing to bet they sound fine on a strat though.  but who knows.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by Mrwonka on 2011-01-25 13:29:39

actually If I crank the volume on my speakers loud enough, I do get clipping.  but I've got it pretty close.  Its usually on the bridge as well , obviously.  whatever, go fix it line6!



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by jeff5x0 on 2011-01-25 13:37:13

But its NOT just a humbucker thing. Thats what I dont get. It does it on my STRAT with stock single coils and my Les Paul.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by FrozenOzone on 2011-01-25 15:37:59

I was reading/glancing at this post and I had the same problem with clipping on my unit when I got it back in October 2010. Now digital clipping to me is when the signal gets actually cut and not fizzy. IMO.  I was using the 1/4" left out and had everything panned center in all my patches.  Come to find out I was setting up my patches wrong.  I had most if not all my patches amp channel volumes up at 70% or greater.  I have now turned up my Master volume to about 70% and my amp volumes below 50% and I haven't had it clip since.

I was looking at  "Real Thing" from customtone and the amp volume is at 100%.  In the real amp world if you had your  amp volume set to 100% you would get major clipping and you probably would blow your cabinet speakers out.

I didn't see any comments on the amp channel volume but I did with the amps drive.  That's why I wanted to post this and see if this might help.

I am not saying that there isn't a problem but I can't recreate it.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by jeff5x0 on 2011-01-25 15:43:35

Thanks for sharing FrozenOzone. I posted a clip in a different discussion with the hi watt model everything set at 50% including preset volume, and it still clips. http://www.soundclick.com/player/single_player.cfm?q=hi&songID=10193197



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by FrozenOzone on 2011-01-25 16:40:56

No problem Jeff5x0. I was hoping that it was something like a volume thing but you never know. I will take listen to the new clip and keep trying to reproduce the issue on my rig.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by Bluestone on 2011-01-25 19:01:46

Interesting thread.. I have DG 20's EMG's on my guitar....and I've been having the clipping/cracked sound...

I haven't had time yet to fully play with it...but..I think FrozenOzone dude is on the right track.. I am going to lower the amps' vol...and raise the Master...


I'm pretty sure I have the amps vol way too high... it's a throw back to the early days of the POD... when we were told to put the channel/amp volume full on..


That won't fly with the HD...


OM



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by Crusty_Old_Rocker on 2011-01-25 19:35:40

jeff5x0 wrote:

Thanks for sharing FrozenOzone. I posted a clip in a different discussion with the hi watt model everything set at 50% including preset volume, and it still clips. http://www.soundclick.com/player/single_player.cfm?q=hi&songID=10193197

Ijust double checked mine and it has none of that clipping that you have recorded.

Something isn't right and it may be hardware related because if it was the firmware then everyone would be getting the same sound.

Cheers,

Crusty



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by Crusty_Old_Rocker on 2011-01-25 20:48:35

This is the Hiwatt with all controls centred, no effects and no post processing at all. (Pls excuse the cr@ppy playing)

Cheers,

Crusty



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by Mrwonka on 2011-01-26 07:21:58

so your saying a lot of us have faulty units?  I find that to be a bit of a stretch.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by Crusty_Old_Rocker on 2011-01-26 13:05:47

Logic and deductive reasoning tells us that firmware is the least likely problem.  The reason is because it is the one thing that is held constant among all of us.  We all run the EXACT same firmware, therefore we should all experience the exact same firmware problems.  What isn't held constant are things like the hardware itself, the cables or wireless used, the guitar used, user errors, etc, etc.

So, if the condition is isolated to only a couple of units and cannot be reproduced, the chance of it being a firmware problem is very, very slim.

There was a guy a few years ago who continually complained about the Vetta II firmware having a harsh and fizzy distortion characteristic.  He refused any help and continued to complain.  When I finaly got him to listen to some logic he let me work with him on the problem.  The whole time he had been using a faulty wireless system.  Had he not been so stubborn and continued to insist it was the firmware, he would never have discovered his wireless system was broken.

Cheers,

Crusty



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by Bluestone on 2011-01-26 13:42:31

I just finished the past hour working with the HD 500...

Like some of the others I've been having serious issues with most of the amps sounding pretty harsh and "clipped".

I've tried all the suggestions...Pad...Volume adjustments... cords...guitars...headphones...amps...etc..


I just finished rolling back to 110 on Monkey..but that didn't help the matter...so I reflashed to 120...the newest...and sadly, I'm still getting the clipping harshness...


I realize that anything going into the HD can be suspect....so I plugged into my X3 just to see if my ears are playing tricks on me...


The X3 sounds fine...in fact..and I hate to say this..for fear of the flames...but,,it sounds better (at this point) than my new HD 500....

There must be something we've all missed here...you think?


I wonder if some units may have shipped with this issue .....I've only had mine for a few weeks...

I guess I'll phone L6..but just to be fair to the guys who are also having this problem...I can confirm that there IS something wrong..we are not all hard of hearing...

The software update has not helped.. Perhaps there IS a difference in firmware?

OM



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by Mrwonka on 2011-01-26 14:04:09

I got mine back in October, and I have the same issues.  So its probably not the units.

Listen....I'm sure there is some way around all of this by tweaking...appearently no one has truely figured it out.  I wish line6 in there next update could install something that would allow you to click a button, or tweak a knob which would clean up the clipping.  It would be an option for users who have to problem.  maybe the button does something with the signal....I don't know.  I don't know how these things exactly work.  but for those who's HDs work fine with they're guitars, you don't use it.  But there needs to be some sort of pedel/knob built only for this problem.  I'm sure one of the engineers could figure it out.  It needs to allow more threshold or something, hard to explain....when the notes come through and get processed.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by AZGdude on 2011-01-26 14:15:05

I have to agree with Bluestone and all the others on this site and the gearpage (see links earlier in this thread) that there is something not right about the HD with some guitars/pickups. Others have done a lot of testing and believe they have isolated the problem to the power amp simulation in the HD (see referenced gearpage thread). I have tested every piece of my gear plugged into other amps and Amplitube 3 (using an Alesis iO2 Express as computer interface) and it all works great until I put the HD500 in the chain. My HD sounds fantastic up until I strum the strings really hard, then the sound falls apart. My chain looks like this;

ESP guitar with Seymour Duncans (JB/59) --> Monster Rock Cable (tried several) --> HD500 (or Alesis iO2) 1/4 stereo outs --> KRK Rokit G2 6's

Again, if I remove the HD from the chain all is good.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by Bluestone on 2011-01-26 14:47:29

Hi AZ

I think I have some good news for us...

Line 6 Dave..bless his heart..gave me some good info...the main thing being...

Be sure to have the correct OUTPUT setting on the HD... I'm getting that harsh clipping in my headphones...and my output was changed to COMBO FRONT last weekend....I didn't notice any problems then..I stayed in a very clean setting..

BUT

Using the headphones now..it sounds pretty bad ... BUT...changing the OUTPUT to STUDIO DIRECT...seems to have fixed it...

I say that with bated breath....but I'm hoping this will be the case with you and the others who are going though this.....

So...be sure to change the OUTPUT setting to what you are using....it makes a huge difference!!!!

I had decided to change the output on the HD while I was on hold with L6...so haven't gone though any settings but one...

and so far so good....

Hope this works!!

Funny..I think the second post in this long thread..the guy suggested checking the output...I should have tried it...

OM



RE: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by ricksox on 2011-01-26 14:49:07

We just got off of the phone with Blustone and he had his output setting set wrong so unless he comes back on this thread and claims to still have these problems we can't account for what his posts claim.

@AZGDude, can you please post a patch to this thread I can use to try to reproduce this here with our PODs? Let me set it up and see if I can reproduce here in house before we conclude anything here. Thanks.

Line6Miller



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by ricksox on 2011-01-26 14:52:13

Also, on this sound clip, are you switching amp models on the POD or are you switching your pickups on your guitar? Also, have you tried adjusting the MIXER levels on the amp models that exhibit this problem?

Line6Miller



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by jeff5x0 on 2011-01-26 14:54:03

Hey Blue, let us know what Line 6 says when you call them. Crusty, I really appreciate your thoughts and looking into this matter. I too have traced it all back trying all sorts of different options. No matter what I do it clips. I cant say its firmware related. I just dont know. But some of us clearly have this problem, while others dont. I think we just want to know if the units we have are defective. I have 5 days left on my GC 30 day return policy, so Im really anxious to know if I have a faulty unit. But at the same time, I dont want to return it if this is a firmware issue. So Im kinda stuck.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by jeff5x0 on 2011-01-26 14:57:45

Hey Miller, thanks for responding. My output is set to studio direct when I record, but combo power amp when I use it live through my Spider Valve Sv 1. It distorts in both instances, and no I was not changing the pickup or amp models in the recording. I have NOT tried adjusting the mixer volume on the patch. But the volume is at 50% on the hiwatt soundclip and 50% going through my amp just isnt loud enough. So if I adjusted the mixer in anyway, it would have to be upwards.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by Bluestone on 2011-01-26 15:00:00

OK guys...

I can confirm that changing the OUTPUT mode on the HD 500...was the problem with my unit...


I just went though it..with the OUTPUT on STUDIO/DIRECT...through my phones..and it is slammin....


Thanks to L6 Miller and L6 Dave....

I didn't realize that I needed to change the output for each different application...perhaps this is the same case for you guys too...


Hope so....


OM



Re: RE: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by Bluestone on 2011-01-26 15:07:03

Thanks Sir Miller...

So far..the output setting was the problem for me.....

btw your box is full....

OM



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by AZGdude on 2011-01-26 15:11:10

Hi Line6Miller,

Glad to see someone from Line 6 getting involved. See the post by Jeff5x0 at the top of page 4 of this thread for a hiway 100 example and settings. I would say pretty much any low to mid gain amp will do it very audibly when set to 50% across the board and with the mixer set to 0. I am also using studio direct.

Being that my HD 500 was a Christmas present bought around Thanksgiving, I am way after the return period so I am really hoping this can be fixed with a firmware update.



RE: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by ricksox on 2011-01-26 15:41:16

I absolutely hear what you guys are talking about but what I'm looking for is a patch I can load up here on my HD500 to see if I can replicate it.

Also, did you see my last post about the Mixer settings in your POD? What are those set to when you hear this?

@Bluestone, glad we could help you out! My PM box is full yes but until we catch up on questions here in the public spaces I need to keep it that way.

Line6Miller



Re: RE: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by Bluestone on 2011-01-26 15:48:28

@ Miller I totaly understand about the box thing...

Thanks for you help...I was hoping it would be helpfull for the other guys too...I hope I didn't appear to make a blanket statement about this fix...I didn't mean to imply that would work for everyone...be nice if it did...but...soon we hope...

Special shout to Line 6 Dave!!!

OM



Re: RE: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by AZGdude on 2011-01-26 15:57:44

Line6Miller,

I do not have my HD500 handy right now so I can not create a patch. But if I did I would just go into an empty patch, add a Hiway 100 (or most of the other lower gain amps), set everything to 50% on the amp, set the mixer to the default 0dB, and call it done. It does it at pretty much any amp settings, but I figure 50% across the board should not cause any problems.

AZGDude



Re: RE: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by jeff5x0 on 2011-01-26 16:00:22

Hey Miller that patch I recorded wasnt even a real patch. I just turned the amp model to hiwatt model, set all controls (except presence and e.r settings, left these where they were at) to 50%. I used the cab and mic that it automattically assigns. The only controls I changed were the tone knobs, set at 50% and the volume knob set at 50%. If you want me to load up a patch that way I can, but thats all I did. There are no effects or anything on it. Thanks for taking your time to look into this, I know you are busy.    Jeff



Re: RE: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by jeff5x0 on 2011-01-26 16:02:06

Mixer set at default 0db.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by Crusty_Old_Rocker on 2011-01-26 16:54:06

Please build a patch that is doing this and post it as an attachment.  That way we can try to replicate the problem.

Without providing that, we could be bouncing back and forth forever without discovering anything.

Cheers,

Crusty



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by amgamg on 2011-01-26 17:33:18

First two are at 15% gain...the second one I pushed up the sliders a little cause I was hearing some clipping in the headphones..Sony Pros that wasnt coming through the recording on the first one on the computer. This led to the third one that I did at 50% to see what would happen. Its The HiWatt Model...just the amp model...into a Korg D1200. I think they sound clear....no????



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by jeff5x0 on 2011-01-26 19:12:12

Heres a patch



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by amgamg on 2011-01-26 19:21:29

Thats what my third one looks like... my tone knobs were at 1 o'clock.... other than that I made level adjustments on the recorder.



Re: RE: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by blk18t on 2011-01-27 02:03:28

IMHO, claiming that "he had his output setting set wrong" is a terrible oversimplification of the issue.  Why on earth would someone want the harsh/fizzy/digital clipping sound in the non studio/direct modes ?  I am quite convinced that this is a real bug, however, more easily observed in certain output modes.



Re: RE: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by amgamg on 2011-01-27 02:55:49

So the clips I posted are clipping? If not..wheres my bug? How did Crusty get a good recording?



Re: RE: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by jeff5x0 on 2011-01-27 05:32:52

I dont get what you are driving at amgamg. If you have read through this entire thread, you would see that obviously some of us have this problem, while others dont. Ive stated a number of times, that I have seen these amp models demo'd on youtube and they sound great. Guys like AZ and myself, aolng with quite a few others are just wondering if we have faulty units or if we are doing something wrong. If you listened to my sound clip, its clearly clipping on single coil pups when strumming hard. Im thrilled that you dont have this issue. But that doesnt mean that we dont.



Re: RE: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by AZGdude on 2011-01-27 06:08:55

Amgamg, glad you don't have the problem. But it does not change the fact that others do. As it has been stated many times before, everyone does not seem to have this problem. It seems that certain guitars/pickups trigger the problem. Whether it is a hardware or software issue with the HD is unknown, but it is an issue for some of us.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by amgamg on 2011-01-27 08:48:12

I'm not claiming you or anyone else has no problem..but if your thinking "bug" that doesn't seem correct. While I don't claim to be a source of all knowledge regarding this issue...it seems to me if some have it and some don't...than its not a bug. I'd go pick Crusty's brains if I were you guys. He made a similar point earlier. If I were less patient as soon as I heard clipping in my head phones I would have just thought I had the same thing. In my case its the headphones..or the headphone output or maybe even the jack. Now what if I was running a more complicated system. That would multiply the possible variables. If I were you guys I'd be thinking about the hardware or maybe even something simpler like connections or grounds..But what do I know. 



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by JerryWawak on 2011-01-27 08:48:50

I am having the exact same issue.  And it's causing major grief between me and the soundman.  I run mine direct into the PA and monitor it via in ear monitors.  At home with my Sony Headphones plugged it, it doesn't sound as bad, but with my SHURE Ear buds and through the house PA anything close to overdriving is harsh.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by Mrwonka on 2011-01-27 10:19:14

ya, its not a bug.  bugs are like glitches within the software.  like pushing the volume button, but it actually increases the flange or something...

its the engineering for sure.  poor design.  Don't know sure if they can fix it or not.



Re: RE: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by ricksox on 2011-01-27 11:17:26

blk18t wrote:

IMHO, claiming that "he had his output setting set wrong" is a terrible oversimplification of the issue.  Why on earth would someone want the harsh/fizzy/digital clipping sound in the non studio/direct modes ?  I am quite convinced that this is a real bug, however, more easily observed in certain output modes.

No, I am saying that his "problem" was completely different. He was monitoring through headphones I believe. So if you have your output mode set to Combo Power amp in that case, it will sound fizzy and harsh.

The issue here is not FIZZ, it sounds more like clipping.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by ricksox on 2011-01-27 11:18:35

Really? Based on what kind of facts exactly? Jumping the gun and saying this is a poor design issue when you have absolutely nothing to back that up is a little premature don't you think?



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by jeff5x0 on 2011-01-27 11:23:17

Im not sure we were thinking bug. Could it be? I dunno. Probably unlikely, but we have, or at least I have verified, it is not my cables, does it with all different guitars, and  does it in any output mode. I dont use headphones. I have two ways I use the Pod. Recording direct, in which I set output mode to studio direct and use the usb, or Guitar>Pod input>1/4" otuput> Poweramp input of my spider valve 1 with Pod set to combo power amp output. It clips in both cases on most of the lower gain models. With no processing in the preset.  I could see if just one person had the issue, but there are several of us that have this issue. I just want to know if I have a faulty unit, or am I personally doing something wrong in the way I have the Pod set up. I love everything else about my Pod. Im getting awesome sounds out of the dirtier channels. The only clean I can use is the Blackface Double. The others are useless to me live and direct. So again I dont know if it is a bug, if I have something set up wrong, or if I have a faulty unit.  It could be user error and I dont rule that out. But my cables and guitar all sound perfect going through the SV by itself. I just want it fixed so I can enjoy the rest of my Pod. Thats all.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by jeff5x0 on 2011-01-27 11:26:41

I dont think its poor design at all. But theres a chance, as with everything thats mass produced, that faulty units get through the line. And Im not even saying that is the case here. It could be user error. I think the Pod is designed very well. For the price what more could you ask for? Guess Ill be labeled as a cheerleader now huh?



Re: Studio Direct vs Combo Poweramp
by Brion_Kean on 2011-01-27 11:28:31

The REAL issue here has NOTHING to do with clipping or fizz. The PROBLEM is that with the HD500 they made a big error in judgement, by not allowing us to run tandem output modes, as the X3L did.

we NEED to be able to run Combo/Poweramp to the AMPS on stage, and STUDIO DIRECT to the PA, soundguy, monitors, headphones, and everything else.

Let's be CLEAR. This is an error, it's not a "feature", it's NOT on purpose. It's most likely due to DSP limits. OOPS.

Yes, I have submitted feature request. Yes, I will do another. Will do one a day, until this gets resolved.

Miller - I volunteer right now, for L6 to send me ANY experimental firmware updates you may or may not be working on, that allow the HD500 to send 1/4" combo poweramp and the XLR's send studio direct.

PLEASE!!!!! We are BEGGING you, to correct this, and I would LOVE to help in anyway I can.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by ricksox on 2011-01-27 11:29:59

OK. I downloaded your patch and recorded a clip. The only thing I changed on the patch was the volume. I dimed out the Channel and Master volumes.

I'm playing an Ibanez with dual EMG active pickups. I use all 3 pickup positions in this clip. I don't hear any clipping or harshness but please tell me if you do. Thanks.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by spaceatl on 2011-01-27 11:31:21

I did not go and look, but have you posted one of your clean patches?

I don't have an HD500 yet, but I can check HD400 patches...One thing I noticed in this thread was someone saying they were hitting a the Tube Comp->TubeDriver->AC-30....Seems like that could get into limit city pretty easily...that Tube Comp can get really squashed out...but then that it what it is meant to do...

I just mention it because too much comp or limiting can be very unpleasant...not FIZZ...maybe FISS is a better workd for that...



Re: Studio Direct vs Combo Poweramp
by Brion_Kean on 2011-01-27 11:34:52

quoting previous post : "my cables and guitar all sound perfect going through the SV by itself"

YES, In combo-poweramp mode, which sounds like an angry BEES NEST when sending to the PA or headphones or any other "direct" full-range rig.

AND, setting the stage rig to take the "studio direct" signal *works* *ok*, but it's not ideal, it's the sound of your amp with a mic on it, rather than just the amp.

This PROBLEM can be solved by a firmware update which allows the HD500 to send combo poweramp or stack poweramp or combo/stack front to the AMP on stage. And then, it also needs to be

able to send XLR Studio Direct.

Please. Help. Us. Fix. This. Problem.

NOTE: the ELEVEN RACK makes specific mention of this in their marketing, about how their device can send amp signal to amp, and studio/direct signal to PA, elsewhere. The ELEVEN Rack also allows full 24/96 8 track recording, so it must be substantially beefier than the HD500 in DSP girth and endowment.

but, I don't want an Eleven Rack, I want my HD500 to send Combo Pwramp to the 1/4" outs and Studio Direct to the XLR's. PLEASE.



Re: Studio Direct vs Combo Poweramp
by jeff5x0 on 2011-01-27 11:35:08

Well, while I would love that feature, its not my specific problem I do not believe anyways. It clips in output to combo/poweramp, and studio direct mode. Even if I could route different outputs to multiple things, how would that stop the clipping? Im just asking because I simply dont know. Would that make a difference? Most others arent having this clipping issue with their set up. It seems only a select few of us are.

At the current time, I just mic the sv at church with the pod set to combo power amp, and when I record I use usb in studio direct mode.



Re: Studio Direct vs Combo Poweramp
by ricksox on 2011-01-27 11:35:13

Brion_Kean wrote:

The REAL issue here has NOTHING to do with clipping or fizz. The PROBLEM is that with the HD500 they made a big error in judgement, by not allowing us to run tandem output modes, as the X3L did.

Brian, this is still a feature request. You can speculate all day on whether or not you think this was an error in judgement but the reality is that submitting your feedback to the proper link is the best way to get visibility to our developers.

Line6Miller



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by Brion_Kean on 2011-01-27 11:37:06

L Miller:

Studio Direct or Combo Poweramp mode?

100% there is NO WAY you get good direct recording tones with Combo Poweramp with any amount of drive, esp not dimed. NO WAY. ANGRY BEES NEST.

Must be on Studio Direct. Which is the whole problem. Needs to be Studio Direct to recording / PA / XLR out, and then Combo Poweramp to 1/4"

Thank You.



Re: Studio Direct vs Combo Poweramp
by Brion_Kean on 2011-01-27 11:39:16

Brion, Irish spelling of Brian.

Mr.Miller, I LOVE my HD500, don't get me wrong! But not being able to send 1/4" and XLR with different output modes, It's not intentional, it's obviously a problem and error.

If it was intentional, fire whomever made that call, because they are making L6 look bad.

But, would LOVE to have that problem corrected!!!!

Thanks

-Brion-



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by jeff5x0 on 2011-01-27 11:43:05

I listened to the clip Miller and yes, like amgamg, I hear you arent having any clipping. So where does that leave the few of us that do? I still have it. You can clearly hear it on my clip. So do I have a defective unit? Or do I need to change something in my set up?



Re: Studio Direct vs Combo Poweramp
by Brion_Kean on 2011-01-27 11:50:59

Sending the Correct Signal

"Eleven Rack lets you choose the point in the signal path that feeds each Output To Amp jack"

>HD500 CANNOT DO THIS (YET?)

"In some cases, having an amplifier onstage can be handy for monitoring or tone reasons. Eleven Rack makes it easy to feed your signal to both a PA mixer and an amp."
>HD500 CANNOT DO THIS (YET?)

I really, really would LOVE for the HD500 to be able to do this. I realize there are a million reasons why it was changed from being able to do this with the X3L, but not the HD500. Whatever those reasons are, they are WRONG. BAD Line6, BAD!!!!

So, now that we have that out of the way, can we do anything about this problem>????? Is it even possible with the DSP amount available to the HD500. I *really* hope so.



Re: Studio Direct vs Combo Poweramp
by Brion_Kean on 2011-01-27 11:53:36

Question for Karl and Nick, and anyone else who got an early HD:

was this ever addressed during your testing stages? The concept of eliminating a clearly EXCELLENT industry accepted standard from the HD500 which existed in the X3L is misguided at best, and a horrendous error at worst.

I realize you can't actually answer that question due to the non-disclosure issue, but if you could grunt non-comittaly in the direction of the answer, that may help



Re: Studio Direct vs Combo Poweramp
by AZGdude on 2011-01-27 12:01:18

Brion, I hope they can address your issue. But this thread is about a harsh digital clipping problem completely different from what you are requesting. Please keep this thread on the original topic. I would suggest starting a new thread for your issue.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by amgamg on 2011-01-27 12:15:50

If your sure you checked it all...maybe you could get your hands on another unit to check it out...maybe give Line 6 a call and see if they would let you send your unit in and check it out. BTW...of course I get it...you just want your HD to work..dont blame you.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by AZGdude on 2011-01-27 12:24:42

Line6Miller,

Your clip sounds fine to me through the speakers on my MacBook. I get the digital clipping sound just like Jeff demoed in an earlier post or the sample clips posted in the referenced gearpage thread. One other thing to note. If memory serves me correctly, most if not all the people having problems are using passive pickups. I believe the Seymour Duncan JB has been mentioned by multiple people. They are definitely not the highest output pickups available, but they have a stronger midrange then most. Maybe it is more frequency related than output related?



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by dftpunk on 2011-01-27 13:00:32

Could anybody tell me what's the fizzes and noises in my soundclip? I've recorded it via USB In Studio/Direct Mode. I can clearly hear the same through PA or Headphones using the Studio/Direct Mode. By the way I dont have such noises using JSX PwrApm and Stack PWRAMP mode. First I thought it was something like an "overdrive" on chords but it's not.   Any ideas?



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by Bluestone on 2011-01-27 14:38:10

HIya  dft


What your sounds clip suggests...is what this whole thread is about...


Some folks are having the same issue.    I was too...but when I cahnged the out put to Studio Direct...it has helped clean up my POD's sound on all the settings...


I'm using EMG's DG 20's....they are pretty hot pups....and at first I was suspect that might be my problem...could be a battery going down...


But like I said....changing the output has helped me....


The sound I hear in your clip is what I was having on my OD's.....


So...hang in there...wise and calm heads are working on this as we speak...


OM



Re: Studio Direct vs Combo Poweramp
by Bluestone on 2011-01-27 14:46:32

Dude...

you are in the wrong thread...

You need to post your concerns to the proper place..

This is still a feature request.  Submitting your feedback to the proper link is the best way to  get visibility to the L6 developers.

OM



Re: Studio Direct vs Combo Poweramp
by JerryWawak on 2011-01-27 15:07:55

By The Way.  in my case it does seem to be worse with certain guitars.  So I think the clipping is on the input side.



Re: Studio Direct vs Combo Poweramp
by ricksox on 2011-01-27 15:55:33

Brion (sorry about that),

I know this is a feature that you and others really miss and I'm certainly not discounting that so please keep submitting those requests and I'll do what I can here to make it heard.

Line6Miller



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by ricksox on 2011-01-27 15:57:17

Let me try with some passives as well. I'll use the same patch and see if I can reproduce and will get back to you guys. All of the information you guys have provided is excellent so I'll continue to do whatever I can to see what the heck is going on here.

Line6Miller



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by ricksox on 2011-01-27 15:59:56

Let me do a few more tests to see if I can reproduce before we determine anything. I'll get back to you guys early tomorrow morning PST time and let you know if I discover anything.

Line6Miller



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by jeff5x0 on 2011-01-27 17:09:26

Hey Miller thanks for putting the time in on this.



Re: Studio Direct vs Combo Poweramp
by Brion_Kean on 2011-01-27 18:46:27

No problem! Thanks!

Have a semi-related question, to keep it positive.

It the event G.A.S. wins again....Is this basic concept achievable with the DT50 using L6 link? IE, can the HD500 be set to send a "studio direct" version of the tone thru the XLR's, and be sending a non-mic'd model version of that to the Dt50?



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by dftpunk on 2011-01-27 23:40:51

but when I cahnged the out put to Studio Direct...it has helped clean up my POD's sound on all the settings...

It's obvious that there're fizzes when you're in STACK PWRAMP or so on modes. But I have these noises in studio direct mode. I have EMG 81 pickups and input switch is in Normal position but I have the same when switching to the PAD mode. This is not concerning the volume by the way. Every patch is about 50% volume and my master is at 100% as it is written in manual.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by Metaldude on 2011-01-28 07:46:26

I've been experiencing similar problems, at least that's what I think.

I've added a clip to check out.

Does every HD have this sound at the amp models?

I recorded this clip with a EMG equipped guitar and the blackface model.

It doesn't really sound the same to the other clips, or is it?

It does not sound like a hardware malfunction.

It sounds as if this is the way those amp models were designed.

And yeah I used all the normal settings, studio direct. normal levels into soundcard etc etc.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by AZGdude on 2011-01-28 08:21:33

I can kind of hear what you are talking about in the clip, but I am listening to it through my Macbook speakers which are not the most detailed. I am not sure the white noise issue you are describing is the same as the clipping issue talked about in this thread. The clipping issue only really happens when playing chords hard and seems to only happen with certain guitars/pickup setups.

However, I did start this thread because I was getting a weird "noise" with the AC30 and other lower gain amps that I found particularly noticeable at the edge of breakup with harder playing. Maybe calling it white noise is a better description than calling it harsh/fizzy/digital clipping? Maybe these issues are one and the same, related in some way, or have nothing to do with each other. I honestly don't know.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by Crusty_Old_Rocker on 2011-01-28 13:24:28

There appears to be some degree of user error that's contributing to this issue.

See:  http://line6.com/community/message/235341#235341

Whatis everyone playing through and have you set the output mode correctly for your gear?

Cheers,

Crusty



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by Crusty_Old_Rocker on 2011-01-28 13:27:04

Real AC30s have a distortion characteristic from the EL84 valves that occurs when you start to drive the amp.  The tone can sound quite clean but there is an added distortion that starts to come in when you play hard.

Please provide a recording of what you're describing.

Cheers,

Crusty



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by Crusty_Old_Rocker on 2011-01-28 13:30:48

Metaldude wrote:

I've been experiencing similar problems, at least that's what I think.

I've added a clip to check out.

Does every HD have this sound at the amp models?

I recorded this clip with a EMG equipped guitar and the blackface model.

It doesn't really sound the same to the other clips, or is it?

It does not sound like a hardware malfunction.

It sounds as if this is the way those amp models were designed.

And yeah I used all the normal settings, studio direct. normal levels into soundcard etc etc.

The way an amp hisses and hums contributes to the character of the amp, it's tone and response.  You will hear the hiss and hum coming from the amp models that is consistent with the real amps.

For those of us on 50Hz power (USA is on 60Hz) we can change the hum cycle in the models to 50Hz - But I am sure you have all read that in the manual.

Cheers,

Crusty



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by Crusty_Old_Rocker on 2011-01-28 13:33:48

dftpunk wrote:


It's obvious that there're fizzes when you're in STACK PWRAMP or so on modes. But I have these noises in studio direct mode. I have EMG 81 pickups and input switch is in Normal position but I have the same when switching to the PAD mode. This is not concerning the volume by the way. Every patch is about 50% volume and my master is at 100% as it is written in manual.

So, tell us what happens when you roll the volume down on the guitar.  Does the clipping stop?  If so, then the output levels of the pickups are way too hot especially if the pad switch isn't taking it out.

Tell us also what happens when you use a different guitar, is the problem still there?  If no, then it confirms that the issue is with the guitar.

BTW, it is best to use the pad with active pickups.

Cheers,

Crusty



Re: Studio Direct vs Combo Poweramp
by Crusty_Old_Rocker on 2011-01-28 13:39:51

Brion_Kean wrote:

It the event G.A.S. wins again....Is this basic concept achievable with the DT50 using L6 link? IE, can the HD500 be set to send a "studio direct" version of the tone thru the XLR's, and be sending a non-mic'd model version of that to the Dt50?

Hi Brion,

The short answer is no.  All outputs on the HD500 use the same mode.  When using the POD HD500 with the DT50 this way you need to use the combo or stack power amp output setting this will affect all outputs.

Now the correct way to deal with sending tone to both the DT50 and FOH is to use the direct out output on the DT50.  It applies the correct cab emulation to the signal going to the FOH.  The sound coming from the direct outs on the DT50 are great.  It also saves running lots of cables out of the HD500.

Cheers,

Crusty



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by jeff5x0 on 2011-01-28 13:47:23

This is not the solution for my clipping. As I have stated over and over, It does it in both output modes in the two different ways I hook up my pod for live and recording(combo power amp output mode sv power amp in for live, studio direct for recording). I rolled the volume down on my strat and still clips (no hums or hisses, actual digital clipping). I have band practice tonight and Im going to try two other completely different guitars through it. This will bring the total to 6 different guitars played through it. All different pickups. So far the 4 I have played through it have all clipped. My set up is pretty simple. I am not saying that this isnt a user error situation. I have repeated that it could very well be in my situation, but I know my cords are good and that my two guitars sound fine playing into the clean models on the spider valve by itself. No clipping. I have 3 days left before GC 30 day period expires (yes I bought the Pod on New Years day lol) so Im hoping Miller can come up with something, or maybe someone else can figure it out.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by Crusty_Old_Rocker on 2011-01-28 13:49:26

My post didn't specify ALL users.

I suspect that there may be a hardware issue for some.

Cheers,

Crusty



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by jeff5x0 on 2011-01-28 13:51:59

Yea I know Crusty, I was just specifying my situation. Hope you have a great weekend!!!!



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by Crusty_Old_Rocker on 2011-01-28 13:52:40

Is there any way you can try out another HD?

If you can try another HD and find that the situation doesn't occur in a different HD then that will isolate the problem down to the hardware.

Cheers,

Crusty



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by Crusty_Old_Rocker on 2011-01-28 13:56:49

Yeah, yours is a real mystery.  It would be really interesting to see if it occurs on a different HD.  I can only speak from an amplifier perspective but the modellers use the same concept on the ins and outs, but I wonder if there is a dud input resistor in your HD.

Anyway, I hope you have a fantastic weekend too.  I really hope you can get this sorted out soon.

Cheers,

Crusty



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by vcuomo on 2011-01-28 19:32:36

FWIW, this post

      http://line6.com/community/thread/54907?tstart=60

seemsto indicate that the problem might have started with the v1.20 firmware update.



Re: Studio Direct vs Combo Poweramp
by Brion_Kean on 2011-01-28 23:14:52

That's what I was thinking; so at least you get the studio emulation from the DT50, and you get the sweetest possible rig sound... I have been jonesing for the DT50 BIG time.

OK, so when using the POD to control the DT50, I realize there are various options, and I have read up on a bunch - but without the amp in hand, it's a little theoretical for me still.

So, basically, the L6 link becomes the DT50 output, which then in turns becomes the PA send. Controlling the DT50 on a per-patch basis, means that you let the HD tell the DT50 what to do as an "amp", then the DT50 has it's own settings which emulate the cabinet being sent by the HD500? And what about mic emulation, is this a "fixed" DT50 setting, or controlled in anyway by the HD?

Thanks!



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by MickSlick on 2011-01-28 23:22:11

This didn't start with the 1.2 update, it has always been there, I started a couple threads on this long ago, I eventually sold my unit due to the harshness / artifacting thing.  Based on a  bunch of time and research and tweaking over and over, and other user input, it became clear that the HD500 has a serious flaw with in the cab / power amp chain.  This is consistently a problem with those using the unit as a direct solution, it's just messed up.  The 500 is clearly "awesome" for many, when used in front of a power amp set up, but has major issues with many, many users going direct and relying on the modeled power amp and cabs.   I continue to revisit the forum hoping that line 6 gets a hold of this not so minor issue and fixes it so I can acually rebuy the thing, but I don't have much hope at this point. 

Thanks for listening, I do hope they fix it.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by Crusty_Old_Rocker on 2011-01-28 23:30:58

It is actually totally awesome in direct mode for recording too.  There is absolutely no problems at all with my HD500 and that is the case for many users of the gear.

If the were a problem with the firmware then LOGICALLY every unit would experience the problem because that is the one and only constant across all units.  Things that are not constant include the device itself, the input device, the output device and the user.  Simple logic and deductive reasoning (the foundations of troubleshooting) tell us that the problem cannot be isolated to the firmware otherwise everyone using the same firmware version would have to experience the same phenomenon.

MickSlick wrote:

From my original threads to this one, their main response is to fault the user, which can be the case, but with this many examples and user after user experiencing the same thing, it would be more helpful to admit the problem and use their status with the engineers to help fix the problem and quit ignoring the obvious.

How many units do you believe would have been sold and only a few are experiencing a problem and the "problem" is not consistent across those users.  This hardly fits with the signs of a firmware related issue.

If I found replicatable evidence of a problem, I would have something to report.  Alas, I have none.

Cheers,

Crusty



Re: Studio Direct vs Combo Poweramp
by Crusty_Old_Rocker on 2011-01-28 23:37:52

Hi Brion,

The L6LINK sends audio (only one way) and control data (two way) to the DT50 from the POD HD.

The DT50 has a Direct Out which ads it's own cab emulation to make sure that the sound going to the FOH is consistent with what comes out of the DT50 speaker.  This saves mic'ing the amp when sending to the FOH.

Cheers,

Crusty



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by MickSlick on 2011-01-28 23:46:10

Just edited my post to take out the little jab at the "expert users" felt a little bad, then saw your response, thanks for responding.

To follow up though, I actually had two units and returned them both, hoping that the first one was a hardware issue, it wasn't.  I am a long time line 6 tweaker so was thoroughly schooled on input modes, output selection issues, master volume, mixer set up etc.. etc.. tricks and tweaks to try to address the problem.  I am absolutly convinced that there is something off in the power amp modeling.  There are way too many users experiencing it, and I expereinced it in both a near field monitor direct mode and two different direct PA situations.  Wheather a substantial number of units have a hardware issue, or the modeling just missed it in the power amp section, something is definatly not right, there are way too many users across the web popping up with the issue over and over to write this off as an abberation.



Re: Studio Direct vs Combo Poweramp
by Brion_Kean on 2011-01-28 23:54:12

To be specific, though - cab/mic emulation is being defined by the HD and sent by the DT, or is it all DT generated cab/mic modelling?

I am a little unclear, as I know with certain rigging, you would be sending all of that to the DT50, and letting it sort out what to do, vs. sending the DT50 the "pre" models, or the "full" models with no cab.

This is all they really mention in the DT50 blurb:

"transformer-tapped direct output with cabinet simulation"



Re: Studio Direct vs Combo Poweramp
by Nick_Mattocks on 2011-01-29 03:59:15

Hi Brion

If you're using a DT50 combo for instance the L6 Link connection detects this and automatically selects the output mode in the HD500 as Combo Pwr Amp (you can over-ride this if you wish, and for the DT50 head it selects Stack Pwr Amp), so the output mode is still in play and you do hear the differences through the DT50 if you switch the HD's output modes.  The DT50's DI output is taken from a tap on the Output Transformer and so includes any valve interaction (unlike the Spider Valve MkI) and as Crusty explained it uses speaker emulation to give you an equivalent sound to the one you're getting through the DT50 itself (as near equivalent as possible that is - I can't tell any real difference in the quality of the tone at least)

Nick



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by Crusty_Old_Rocker on 2011-01-29 04:09:05

MickSlick wrote:

To follow up though, I actually had two units and returned them both, hoping that the first one was a hardware issue, it wasn't.  I am a long time line 6 tweaker so was thoroughly schooled on input modes, output selection issues, master volume, mixer set up etc.. etc.. tricks and tweaks to try to address the problem.  I am absolutly convinced that there is something off in the power amp modeling.  There are way too many users experiencing it, and I expereinced it in both a near field monitor direct mode and two different direct PA situations.  Wheather a substantial number of units have a hardware issue, or the modeling just missed it in the power amp section, something is definatly not right, there are way too many users across the web popping up with the issue over and over to write this off as an abberation.

Could you specify which models and post the patches you are using.  I'd like to try your patches on my unit to see if I can get the same to happen.

Do you have a recording of the phenomenon too?

Cheers,

Crusty



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by dftpunk on 2011-01-29 04:51:34

Guys! I've did a little experiments today in studio with JSX amp. I've connected to its Power Amp in STACK PWRAMP mode.

Here's a results:  You can clearly hear the clippings with full amp models. However there's no clippings with PRE versions of amps even with NORMAL mode and active pickups.

So the problem is in Full amps.

I just need to identify now how my guitar with active pickups influences to the problem.

Cheers



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by Crusty_Old_Rocker on 2011-01-29 05:27:54

Have you engaged the pad?  Active pickups send a much hotter (higher voltage) signal into the device and this can cause overdrive and clipping.  The pad switch lowers the signal to a level that is less likely to clip or overdrive.  But if the pickup is ridiculously hot, then you'll need to roll off the volume as well.  The amp modelling is done to mimic the real amps.  If you put a super hot pickup into those amps they will clip, overdrive and distort too.  The only solution would be if Line 6 changed the amp models to suit super hot guitars, but if they did that then the amp models would be useless for the majority of users who don't have super hot pickups on their guitars.

I listened to you recording of the Blackface Deluxe, could you also post the settings so I can replicate and record?  Were you running nothing but the amp model?

Cheers,

Crusty



Need some evidence to work with
by Crusty_Old_Rocker on 2011-01-29 05:33:36

I really would like to help get to the bottom of this but to do so I will need patches (or the amp settings you're using) and a recording that shows off the phenomenon.  I would really like to be able to replicate what you're experiencing.

Cheers,

Crusty



Re: Need some evidence to work with
by dftpunk on 2011-01-29 07:30:49

Crusty, thanks for the answers. I'm leaving town for 2 days and when I back I'll post my patch, settings and so on... But the mistery is still exists: WHY THIS WON"T HAPPENES WITH PRE AMP MODELS? Power Amp Modeling should only amplify the signal. So if there's no clipping in PRE section there shouldn't be clipping in PWRAMP section. I have no clipping in NORAMAL  mode with PRE versions of the amps with my active EMG81 pickups and guitar volume 100%.

So in 2 days I'll do some experiments you've advised me and post a feedback.



Re: Need some evidence to work with
by amgamg on 2011-01-29 07:46:13

In real amps power sections absolutly clip based on input signal. As a matter of fact preamp distortion came after in the form of cascading gain stages so you could distort when you couldnt play loud enough to get power amp clipping. So if there's no clipping possible in the power section...than the modeling wouldnt be accurate. If the modeling is to be like the amps modeled..especially vintage...straight preamp type amplifiers...than power amp clipping is more than possible..its expected. So why would you expect no power amp clipping?



Re: Studio Direct vs Combo Poweramp
by Brion_Kean on 2011-01-29 08:03:45

Ok, that's cool - seemingly a nice step toward realistic vs digital. So, the DT50 is sending a PA / Mixer / "full range" worthy (mono?) signal. Cool. I would imagine that is the portion of the literature where they make not of the amp somehow balancing it's tube and modeller amounts at higher volumes? I am guessing you mean, that when letting the DT50 and POD do what they are designed to do, it's the best possible function of the two parts... You turn up louder, it decides how to create that tone - does that affect the DI Out from the DT50?



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by joehelias on 2011-01-29 08:18:12

I'm the original poster from the Gear Page. The clips I made and the  pictures i posted answered every single "did you try this" question  regarding this issue. I had a blank patch set for studio direct (the pad was engaged) and  inserted an amp with reasonable volume and gain settings. I recorded the  full amp , full amp no cab, and preamp only. I also  switched pickup  positions and varied my strumming attack and the volume knob setting on  the guitar. I was thorough IMO

Sooo...the bottom line is that this clipping is NOT  related to ANY output or volume setting or cables or monitors (all of which were swapped). It is independant of the pad, mixer, amp  or channel volume. It does it on pretty much every full amp with BRIDGE  humbuckers or single coils.

Now this last fact is  interesting because there seem to be MANY players having this issue who  have JB bridge pickups, including myself. There are a smaller number who  report the issue with single coils (so obviously pickup output can be  eliminated). My guess is that its only happening on BRIDGE single coils.  So as unlikely as it sounds I am leaning towards some kind of frequency  specific overload of the power amp sims on the full amps.I can say its definitely the power amp sims (as opposed to input distortion) because the preamp models do not digitally clip at all on any setting no matter how hard I strum - only the full amps.

Original thread

http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?t=795538&highlight=humbucker

Mypost with screenshots and links to audio clips

http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showpost.php?p=9348221&postcount=175



Re: Need some evidence to work with
by joehelias on 2011-01-29 08:34:05

In real amps power sections absolutly clip based on input signal. As a matter of fact preamp distortion came after in the form of cascading gain stages so  you could distort when you couldnt play loud enough to get power amp  clipping. So if there's no clipping possible in the power section...than  the modeling wouldnt be accurate. If the modeling is to be like the  amps modeled..especially vintage...straight preamp type  amplifiers...than power amp clipping is more than possible..its  expected. So why would you expect no power amp clipping?

BECAUSE in a REAL amp when you have you preamp volume @ 9:00 the power amp is definitely in the linear range (no distortion). Power amps only distort when they run out of headroom so there is typically a fairly wide range of volume settings that keep the power amp running squeaky clean. Secondly the clipping we are experiencing is NOT simulated tube power amp distortion its HARSH digital clipping.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by jeff5x0 on 2011-01-29 08:37:00

Joe is exactly right. I am experiencing the exact same thing. I have posted 3 different amp clips, as well as the patches I used to record them. This is studio direct using usb into Reaper. Ive backed as much gain as I could off of these patches to clear them up but yet keep them somewhat audible.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by jeff5x0 on 2011-01-29 08:37:30

Here is the last patch



Re: Need some evidence to work with
by amgamg on 2011-01-29 08:43:16

So..I'm not having this issue because???????

There may be an issue of some sort but I doubt its what your saying or we'd all have it. I own many many guitars. I dont get it with weak Strat pickups..I dont get it with PAF style humbuckers...I dont get it with obnoxiously powerful and bright IBN/Dimarzio pickups either.

You guys think what ya need to..it'll be interesting to see what it ends up.

BTW in a real amp 9 o'clock means nothing...play a real plexi at 9 o'clock in some amps thats already most of its useful power range..not all some.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by jeff5x0 on 2011-01-29 08:50:51

So Im running out of time here. My 30 day return policy is approaching fast. I know Line 6 will honor there warranty so Im not super worried about that IF this is a faulty unit. But thats the million dollar question now isnt it. Let me state again that I am loving the the tones I am getting for distorted tones. Ive even been able the use the blackface with some success for cleans. But I dont want to waste my hard earned money for 4 useable amp sims when Im suppose to have 16. Everyone does not have this issue.....clearly. But a select few of us do and it does not pertain to guitar, pickups, cords, effect chains, ect. Its clearly coming from the Pod. So what do I do? I have thought about returning this Pod today and exchanging it for a new one. But then I see posts of guys who have done that with no different result, Then I think to myself, what are the chances of getting a second Pod with the exact same problem. Not likely, but thats what these guys are posting. So if that is the case......then it takes me back to is it a hardware issue like Crusty has mentioned. I find it hard to believe that getting a second Pod with the exact same condition would be normal. That sends my train of thought to ....there has to be something that IM doing wrong. I just dont know what to think here. So Im stuck. I dont want to get rid of it. I really really like it. I just hate the clean amps, which is a big part of what I use in worship service. Any suggestions??? Today is the only day I will have time to return the Pod. Very confused here.



Re: Need some evidence to work with
by jeff5x0 on 2011-01-29 08:57:53

amgamg, I feel like when you post stuff like that, you make it seem like we are making this stuff up. I have an issue with clean sounds on my Pod. I never said it couldnt be a user error issue. But I have tried everything with no good results. Im not alone here. Im thrilled that you are not having any issues, truly I am, but that doesnt mean that we are not experiencing these issues. There is clearly "something" wrong here. Ive tried new cords, 6 different guitars all with different pups, all with no luck. My clean sounds are digital clipping in full amp sims.

Most users have not reported this problem. Which is great in my opinion. Theres vids all over youtube of gorgeous clean sounds coming out of the Pod. I dont doubt Im in the select few that have this problem.....but it is a problem. Im looking for solutions, thats all. Im willing to try whatever. I just want it to work correctly.



Re: Studio Direct vs Combo Poweramp
by Nick_Mattocks on 2011-01-29 09:31:27

Brion_Kean wrote:

Ok, that's cool - seemingly a nice step toward realistic vs digital. So, the DT50 is sending a PA / Mixer / "full range" worthy (mono?) signal. Cool. I would imagine that is the portion of the literature where they make not of the amp somehow balancing it's tube and modeller amounts at higher volumes? I am guessing you mean, that when letting the DT50 and POD do what they are designed to do, it's the best possible function of the two parts... You turn up louder, it decides how to create that tone - does that affect the DI Out from the DT50?

Hi Brion

Anything that affects how the output to the speakers in the DT50 sounds is also going to affect how the DI output sounds in the same way because both speaker output and DI output are drived from the same Output Transformer.

I think you are getting slightly confused with how the HDx00 interacts to your best advantage with the DT50 from the literature.  That's a whole other topic

The DT50 responds best to the HDx00 and is most realistic when you use the PRE models in the HDx00 and are using the DT50 at full power settings - i.e. with the Master Volume pushed in.  With the Master Volume pulled out the DT50 makes best use of the HDx00 FULL models but for manageable low level playing say if you live in an apartment this is ideal.

I think you'd better go and get a DT50 so you can erm... 'experiment' - not that I think you need too much encouragement LOL

Nick



Re: Need some evidence to work with
by amgamg on 2011-01-29 10:25:43

OK..please dont misunderstand. Go back and read through my post. I never said there was no problem. I just dont believe its what some of you think it is. BTW...you've been one of the most reasonable as your trying to think it through. My point has always been ..."YES" its "SOMETHING" but...it must be something other than firmware...power amp sims or other things that I am subject to using just like you. I'm not gloating I have no problem...but if my HD isnt doing this...than you should be able to get one like mine. Hey I'm on your side really...honestly!

Some advice..this would be the easiest thing for you to try. Return the HD you have and try another. See what happens. I'd take it a step further...if GC wont give you another 30 days on exchange...get the refund from them and than buy another from MF or Amazon. Thats what I'd do.



Re: Need some evidence to work with
by jeff5x0 on 2011-01-29 10:34:11

Thats not a bad idea. And no, I dont think youre gloating at all. Im just a little frustrated. I wasnt lashing out at you, and I hope you dont think that. I just need some useful information. I just dont understand at all why some of us have this issue and most dont. Logic would lead to user error or hardware issue. I think for now I will take back the Pod as much as I do not want to. I really love everything about it, except the cleans clipping on me. Maybe I will buy another from MF. I dunno. Like I said, Im pretty frustrated and a little confused at the moment. Thanks amgamg.



Re: Need some evidence to work with
by amgamg on 2011-01-29 10:38:06

I'm not offended by you at all...if you really like the HD than get another...to me that makes sense. If its not you....in one fell swoop ..problem solved. if it still happens..than you go from there.



Re: Need some evidence to work with
by MickSlick on 2011-01-29 11:44:09

Hey, I wold love to give you some patches and samples, but I returned the second unit some time ago, and subsequently deleted the software and patches.  I actually did post a couple of mp3 samples on this forum back in Oct. / Nov. when originally trying to work it out.



Re: Need some evidence to work with
by amgamg on 2011-01-29 11:50:34

What do ya think..Jeff's stuff...theres gaps between them...Tweed..O..than Z



Re: Need some evidence to work with
by jeff5x0 on 2011-01-29 11:52:48

Ok, just an update. I just got back from GC. They were gracious enough to swap out the unit and give me another 30 days. So Im gonna register, and update this new Pod and see what happens. Now if it clips the same, then logically speaking it can only be the way I set it up, or the way I play (admittedly a heavy picker), or just something Im doing wrong. I think the odds of me getting 2 bad Pods are astronomical. So Ill post back in a few. Wish me luck!



Re: Need some evidence to work with
by jeff5x0 on 2011-01-29 11:56:07

The first part of the clip sounds fantastic, nothing like mine, however I am still hearing some clipping in the other 2 parts of the clips.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by MickSlick on 2011-01-29 11:59:18

Good job of providing a very simple straight forward description, exactly my experience.  I only want to add, that it occured with all of my guitars, so I don't think it is just a JB or something that specific.  The pad switch simply made the harsh lower in volume but did nothing to take it away.  It was much less noticeable with single coils, but still there, especially in high gain scenarios.  And - to reiterate, I am hoping that this thread finally gets the needed attention to the issue, because I would love nothing more than to plop down $500 for the third and final time to get the truly wonderful upgrade to my XTlive that I was hoping this would be.



Re: Need some evidence to work with
by amgamg on 2011-01-29 12:11:34

I tried the Z again



Re: Need some evidence to work with
by jeff5x0 on 2011-01-29 12:50:44

Crap. Well, I dont get it. Same thing on this new Pod. I went through some further testing on my strat. I used the "fluttery" stock patch. On my bridge pickup, total nasty clipping. Switch to neck pick up its fine. On my Les Paul with EMGs, both positions sound bad. I tried just using bare pathes as well, just amp no effects. Same result. I would kinda expect it with the EMGs, they are super hot. But not at all with the strat. I can not conclude in anyway now that my original Pod was defective. Only conclusion is I am doing something wrong, or my guitars do not handle the Pod well. Unfortunately its a no go for me. I cant use it this way. Im really bummed about it. Anyways, thanks to all who participated in this thread. Im not sure anything was really defined here other than my original Pod was not at all defective.



Re: Need some evidence to work with
by amgamg on 2011-01-29 14:03:29

I think my second try at the Z sounds good. Could probably clean up the second one if I tried. Just playing with the levels on my recorder.

I'm thinking its something in your system...I was using an RG550...lead pickup....pretty strong pickups V-series.

Sorry the new unit wasnt the cure.



Re: Need some evidence to work with
by jeff5x0 on 2011-01-29 15:19:30

Yea Im not hearing any clipping in your second mp3



Re: Need some evidence to work with
by meambobbo on 2011-01-29 19:15:46

ok i did some tests.  i definitely get clipping with my ebmm petrucci model.  not sure what pickups but they are pretty hot.  my other guitars have blackouts which are way hotter.  i assume they'd clip too.

it clips more with the looper in front of the patch than at the back.

it clips on no amp and blackface pre, even more on blackface full.

however, using the pad seemed to eliminate it.  i'm not sure if it would on the blackouts.  but it seemed that the input volume was the culprit.

also, i found strumming directly over the bridge pickup hard is what it had the most trouble with.  strumming over the nuck while the bridge is active noticeably reduced clipping.

jeff, have you tried running a volume pedal in front of the pod and lessened it a bit, or turned down the guitar's volume knob?



Re: Need some evidence to work with
by timowens on 2011-01-29 19:58:22

jeff5x0 wrote:

Crap. Well, I dont get it. Same thing on this new Pod...

If there was a bad batch of POD's there is a good chance that you simply got another POD from the same batch because you got your second unit from the same store. As a lot of people have suggested, it does seem unlikely that it would be a hardware issue or more people would be having the problem, but if there was a bad batch then it doesn't seem too odd that the store would have given you another unit that came in the same shipment. It might be interesting to know how far apart the serial numbers are. Just a thought...



Re: Need some evidence to work with
by jeff5x0 on 2011-01-29 20:21:49

I usually strum right over the bridge pickup, but Ive done that since I picked up the guitar 25 yrs ago. I doubt Id be able to break that habit lol. (Im a hard stummer as well which Im sure doesnt help) I have tried the volume pedal in pre position. I have tried volume knob down as well. Both make the tone sound not "as good", but the clipping isnt lessened much. I think the looper is set in back as default isnt it? I never change the looper postion from default, but I will look into that.

As far as a bad batch, I dunno if thats possible. My GC by my house was out of stock on Jan 1st when I bought it. I had to go to the GC down south to get it (bout 40 miles away). I returned the unit I had today to the GC by my house and they had new stock in. Is it possible? I guess so. I just think the likelyhood of me getting two defective Pods is not very realistic. But Im not discounting anything. After church tomorrow Im gonna bring my amp back home and mess with it some more. I had practice on Friday noght and left my amp there and feel naked at the moment. All of the testing I have done today was studio direct into computer with my studio monitors.



Getting the evidence to look at
by Crusty_Old_Rocker on 2011-01-29 23:17:56

joehelias wrote:

I'm the original poster from the Gear Page.

Original thread

http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?t=795538&highlight=humbucker

Mypost with screenshots and links to audio clips

http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showpost.php?p=9348221&postcount=175

Sorry,I'm not a member of the gear page and don't have time to go through 10 pages on another website.

This site is the support site for Line 6 gear, so it would have been better to post the details here instead of there.

The other guys have posted settings and recordings, so I'll work with those.

Cheers,

Crusty



Re: Need some evidence to work with
by Crusty_Old_Rocker on 2011-01-29 23:20:22

Just a few questions.   This is for all posters not just Jeff5x0.


Are you hearing the clipping when connected to the Edit software?


What about when you're not connected to the Edit software?

Cheers,

Crusty



Re: Need some evidence to work with
by amgamg on 2011-01-30 03:02:35

It may help to know..I hope...the only adjustment I'm making is the level on the recorder. The only clipping I noticed right off the bat was the Z. The O was much lower... I raised it a lot..maybe a tad to much. Here's the part that might help. My meters would show some clipping mainly in the peaks. The levels looked good but if I played harder I noticed it even more. So I'd not only be looking at an average where the meter is but I'm paying close attention to the momentary peaks I'm getting. Once I've made that adjustment to the peaking....it didn't matter how hard I played. It didn't seem to lower the fidelity of the sound. You probably know what I'm talking about...just the same the adjustment I need to make in this way does vary from guitar to guitar and what and how intense I'm playing. BTW...when I put the HD into the return of my Blue Angel and played loudly those patches sounded very good and clean.Anyway..just trying to be helpful..sometimes its the small things...sometimes not. Also....I don't work on the editor...I do everything direct on my HD...straight into input 1 of the recorder..so there's no addition effects or anything. Not using any pads on either machine. I'm listening only through Sony Pro headphones..which I switched to another pair since I noticed them distorting last time I recorded before this. So I feel I'm hearing accurately now...what I hear in the end through my computers speakers.



Re: Need some evidence to work with
by Crusty_Old_Rocker on 2011-01-30 03:49:06

Meters clipping?  What meters were clipping?  The clipping sound would be coming from the device with the meters rather than from the POD.

Cheers,

Crusty



Re: Getting the evidence to look at
by Crusty_Old_Rocker on 2011-01-30 03:52:46

I also found that Joehelius said the clipping he heard disappeared when lowered his guitar (with hot pickups) volume down to 7.

Does everyone with this problem run active pickups or have their humbuckers raised too close to their strings?

Cheers,

Crusty



Re: Getting the evidence to look at
by Nick_Mattocks on 2011-01-30 04:23:25

... and for those with active pickups, are the batteries in a reasonable state?  I have noticed one or two users in general (not specifically POD HDx00 users) who have had problems with getting a signal to their amp or modeller and who have assumed it must be the amp's fault when in fact it later turned out to be a battery problem with their active pickups.

Nick



Re: Need some evidence to work with
by amgamg on 2011-01-30 05:14:48
Meters clipping?  What meters were clipping?  The clipping sound would be coming from the device with the meters rather than from the POD.

The meters on the recorder. That's what I'm thinking....the clipping would be my equipment and how its handling the POD. This would explain why I can clean up the sound. If there was clipping inherent in the POD..it would clip at any level. The active pickup explanation also makes sense but others claim the problem exist with all the guitars they try to some degree or another.



Re: Getting the evidence to look at
by silverhead on 2011-01-30 09:31:31

Crusty_Old_Rocker wrote:

I also found that Joehelius said the clipping he heard disappeared when lowered his guitar (with hot pickups) volume down to 7.

Does everyone with this problem run active pickups or have their humbuckers raised too close to their strings?

Cheers,

Crusty

I've been watching this thread with interest, but didn't really have anything to add to the discussion until now.......

I too have been experiencing the fizz/clip symptoms that this thread is  all about, especially on the stated amp models and expecially in the  Full models, but also quite noticeable in the Preamp models. I have a Pod HD400 and a Variax 300 electric with Graphtech pickups replacing the Line 6-installed lr baggs. The Graphtechs are known to be hotter.

It took surprisingly long for this thought to occur to me, but suddenly today I thought: "Hey - why not try turning down the pickup/string volumes in Workbench?". So I did that.... and I can make the problem disappear. Of course, lowering the pickup levels too much causes other problems (e.g. signal-to-noise ratios, reduced sensitivity of amp Drive to guitar Volume, etc...) so I am going to spend a lot more time tweaking to find the best balance between pickup levels, SNR, and the fizz/clip effect across all amp models.

But I thought I would report this now. To me, it supports the theories that the problem is related to hot pickups, and that not everyone will experience it. It also confirms, I think, that the issue is found across all HD models - not just the 500 - so it seems to be inherent in the modeling itself. I don't know whether this says anything about whether a firmware update can (or should) resolve it. Maybe it could resolve it, but perhaps at the cost of an overall degradation in the device's SNR quality. But that's way out of my league - I'll let the Line 6 engineers worry about that.

This does open up a possible test: those with Variax guitars (especially those who have replaced the factory pickups) can fiddle with string volume levels in Workbench to try to reduce/remove the problem if they have it, or try to create the problem for test/reporting purposes here if they don't have it.

For me, I'm probably looking at an hour or so of tweaking to get my Variax pickup levels properly tuned for the HD400. Then I'd like to just play as usual for a few days and see if this has actually resolved things for me. I'll report back here then. (If I forget - somebody remind me please.)



Re: Getting the evidence to look at
by jeff5x0 on 2011-01-30 11:35:06

Ok well Im glad to see Im not totally crazy. However in my case it is not related to "hot" pickups. Its doing it on my Fender with stock singke coils and they are not hot by any means. As far as the recording goes, if you notice on the clips I posted, the output is pretty low......because I recorded them low. I didnt want any chance of clipping coming from Reaper. So the input levels were left low in Reaper. I should state that I tried volume roll off and pedal at front of chain with the first unit.....I have NOT tried with this unit yet, so Ill give that a go later today. Unfortunately I do not have a Variax, although I have been looking at the new version. I also want to state that I am not new to modelling or Line 6 gear. I go way back with Line 6. I have used Pod 2.0, Flextone II, Flextone III, XT Live, Pod X3 Live (only for a few days, wasnt my cup o tea), and Spider Valve MKI with Strymon mod. So I am familiar with how their products work and I am not a complete bozo lol.

I did use the  Pod with my amp at church today. Dirty channel was gorgeous, the clean channel was horrific. I had to strum as lightly as I could for it not to clip. I am also going to take my strat back into the shop just to double check the pickups are set to the correct hieght. The clipping is far more pronounce on my G and A string, to my ears anyways. I have no reason to doubt that the pups are in the right spot, because this guy has been doing my set up for years, and every guitar that I have tried through the Pod clips, but I want to leave no stone unturned. I look forward to your findings Silverhead.



Re: Getting the evidence to look at
by cGil on 2011-01-30 14:35:10

I hated to have to do it, after all, there's a lot of good to be said about the HD models and the potential these boxes should have; but last night I gave GC back my HD500.  Next time I'll wait (and wait and wait) to see what sorta bugs shake out before I dive into the pool. I count myself as one of those who've heard distortions/ghost notes/digital clipping hash problems since day one back in October, and the threads seem to just keep going round after round.  Firmware update 1.2 seemed to offer hope, but it was apparently only an intermittent resolution for the rash of hash.

Now whether it turns out to be digital clipping between the models, or within the models, or from such warts in the live amp's tone including hum, poor filtering ghost notes, or just harsh fresh caps in the amps that were modeled, I care not.    There are certain issues that I doubt can be resolved, such as all outputs being tied together the way they seem to be.  Other errors and bugs such as those Line6 pulls out the "warts" excuse to explain away simply don't leave me with much hope they'll ever be properly addressed and corrected.  After all, the ones we have to convince of a problem are the programmer divas who may simply not have the ears to required to hear such fine elusive details in guitar tones, and therefore could consider any criticism of their efforts as an insult.   Too soapy for me.   I just need good tone, without all the excuses and complications.   I can't take it anymore.  IMHO, this thing's simply not ready for prime  time, and I've wasted enough of mine "beta testing" after the sale thank  you very much.   So; I'm back to my tried and true analog pedals and tube amps, with a couple of new stomp pedals on the way.

l'll be watching for the debut of the POD HD Pro, since that's most likely to be the model that may resolve the dual amp+FX DSP overloads and the multi-output options the HD500 seemed to promise but couldn't quite deliver on.   And of course, I'm still gonna wait and wait and wait for the reports of the inevitable tone-killing (like the hash) bugs being resolved before I even think about giving it a test run. 

Sorry Line6.  Nice try, but I'm outta here till you get it right.  My product registration is now officially recinded. 

BTW, if anyone's looking for a bargain, there's a slightly used but still immaculately clean HD500 available at the  Guitar Center in Pensacoloa Florida.

Gil...



Re: Getting the evidence to look at
by joehelias on 2011-01-30 14:51:46

@crusty_old_rocker I don't believe you need to be a memer of TGP to browse the forum and I gave you a direct link to my post with screenshots and audio links. C'mon man it not that much to ask

Anyway in the spirit of goodwill and the hope of solving this issue I am pasting the post here:

____________________________________________________________________________________________

OK here ya go folks. CLIPS

I make no apologies for the distinct lack of musicality in these as i  was trying to get the point across quickly and rather bluntly. Also I  the fidelity is not what wanted but i had to work fast because eye  strain is my constant enemy these days. You should easily get the idea. I  may post strat clips later as it also does this to a lesser degree

First here are a couple screen shots of the settings (pad switch is ON - studio direct mode):

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh146/jfh_3/LP1.png

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh146/jfh_3/LPmixer.png

Hereis the first clip. The guitar is a yamaha AES620 Lp clone with a  stock Duncan JB bridge and a Duncan Jazz pickup in the neck. Both pickups are passive and the JB is a bit hotter than a typical PAF. All the  control are maxed but I roll the volume down at times and switch pickups  as well. Clearly the bridge pickup defines the problem. The neck pickup  does not clip but it does have hash underneath if you let a chord ring.  All distortion goes away on all pickups if you roll the volume down to  about 7.
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/page...songID=9818098

This next clip is exactly the same settings but with the cab defeated.  With out the cab filtering the output, the clipping and hash are even  more apparent.
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/page...songID=9818106

This last clip is using the bridge pickup exclusively at max volume thru  the preamp only version of the twin also with no cab. I have jacked the  channel volume to 100% to make up for the volume difference. As you can  hear its squeaky clean and I am BASHING the strings. This can only mean  that its the power amp that is causing the noise on the other 2 clips.
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/page...songID=9818107

Discuss...

______________________________________________________________________________________



Re: Getting the evidence to look at
by joehelias on 2011-01-30 15:08:08

I would like to point out that there is absolutely no clipping anywhere else in the reording chain. I've been involved with recording using both analog and digtal mediums for over 15 years.I know how to setup proper gain staging.

All of the endless advice about swapping your cables, hot and/or active pickups, overloaded mic pres, output mode etc.  has all been addressed by either myself or some of the many other posters having this issue. We aren't stupid and we aren't deaf. These circular arguments are counter producticve.

Now that's not to say that those of us having this issue haven't missed something. but please read through the thread before posting something obvious like "check your output mode" or "maybe your mic pres are clipping". These have already been ruled out.



Re: Getting the evidence to look at
by jeff5x0 on 2011-01-30 16:22:08

I know those of us that have this issue are a little frustrated right now. We want our device to work properly. After all we just plopped down 500 bucks for it. But I think we need to keep a level head here as well. In my case, its highly unlikely that I got 2 defective Pods. I guess its possible, but I am looking at it logically, and its highly unlikely. As Joe has mentioned, we have run through all of the hardware checks and software checks. I have played 6 different guitars through my first Pod, but only the two that I own through this Pod. All with the same results. Clipping on all of the clean amp sims, and even a little on the broken up amp sims. Most users have complained about it with HB pups. As far as I know, I am the ONLY one who has complained about it with single coils. Which is odd. The pad switch has been ineffective for most of us that has this situation. Does anyone know the -db on the pad switch? When I engage it, it knocks the volume down, but I dont know how much. Even so, I still get clipping.



Re: Getting the evidence to look at
by MickSlick on 2011-01-30 16:24:34

At this point there is overwhelming evidence that the HD500 has a design flaw, either in the firmware or the hardware.  There is no reason why folks should be expected to tweak 72 different settings and setups to try to get rid of a systemic problem that is now incontrovertable.  The quicker Line 6 acknowledges that there is indeed a problem and resolves to fix it, the better it's reputation will be, the longer they wait, the more it will erode.



Re: Getting the evidence to look at
by jeff5x0 on 2011-01-30 16:37:10

I would think if it was an actual design flaw, we would all have it.....but I could certainly be completely wrong here. And yes I completely agree that we shouldnt "have to tweak 72 different setting and setups to try to get rid of a systematic problem." To me, putting a volume pedal pre or rolling off my volume to solve digital clipping isnt an  acceptable way to cure the problem. But it can be a useful way to diagnose part of the problem, so I am all for trying anything at this point.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by Texxxxx on 2011-01-30 16:56:54

I will chime in at this point.  I was chasing other dragons before, but I will sign on to the fact that yes, indeed, there is clipping...most notably on the clean amps, but probably on the high gain also...just harder to hear in those.  In my experience it happens with both both single coil and humbuckers.

The clips that joehelias posted from 'The Gear Page' are representative of what I hear also, although I don't hear them to quite that extent.  They are there, however.

I believe it is a problem with the HD's.  It is managable for me at the moment, because I only use mine live and with 'Pre's'.

Some people have posted clips that try to show it is not there.  Those clips have a definite lack of treble...as if the volume on the guitar is rolled off, or the treble and presence on the amp have been rolled off, or some post EQ.

It sounds possibly related to the 'Ringing Tone Bug' and the 'Dual Amp Bug', both of which Line 6 is working on fixing in in future firmware releases.

It is real and I believe it is inherent to all the production units, and at this point I believe it will be fixed.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by jeff5x0 on 2011-01-30 17:21:30

Im glad you responded Tex. Im happy to hear you are having the issue with single coils......well not happy youre having the problem, but happy Im not the only one reporting the single coils. That gives me hope this could be a Pod issue. I just dont get why only some of us are having this.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by amgamg on 2011-01-30 17:23:00
Some people have posted clips that try to show it is not there.  Those clips have a definite lack of treble...as if the volume on the guitar is rolled off, or the treble and presence on the amp have been rolled off, or some post EQ.


So are you saying that "some people" are rigging the game??????

Thats fine....I know as a "matter of fact"..."absolute fact"....the only adjustment I made to the patches I recorded were to the recorder levels..nothing else. The patches were untouched and the guitar was full up in all regards.

I posted what I posted out of curiosity and general interest....than I actually felt some compassion toward those of you with an issue.

As they say...no good deed goes unpunished!



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by Texxxxx on 2011-01-30 18:46:20

amgamg wrote:

Some people have posted clips that try to show it is not there.  Those clips have a definite lack of treble...as if the volume on the guitar is rolled off, or the treble and presence on the amp have been rolled off, or some post EQ.


So are you saying that "some people" are rigging the game??????

Thats fine....I know as a "matter of fact"..."absolute fact"....the only adjustment I made to the patches I recorded were to the recorder levels..nothing else. The patches were untouched and the guitar was full up in all regards.

I posted what I posted out of curiosity and general interest....than I actually felt some compassion toward those of you with an issue.

As they say...no good deed goes unpunished!

No offense intended, amgamg.  I wasn't talking about your patches...in fact I hear the clipping in your patches.

Sorry...maybe it is just my ear, but I definately hear a bit of that high, tinny, clipping 'zzzzzzzz' in your patches.  It's not bad, very loud, or annoying, really, but I believe it is there.  I just went back a page or two an re-listened to them.

I was talking about some of the other patches posted.

I guess it is a pretty subjective thing.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by meambobbo on 2011-01-30 20:23:28

here's my thoughts - where this is happening with a complete bypass, it's the a-d converters or beyond that.  i doubt a firmware upgrade will fix this.

but i believe there is a workaround.  it seems that the clipping occurs when strumming strongly, and is more prevalent when you use bridge pickups and pick directly over them.  even a low output pickup could still get a strong temporary signal to the Pod, I believe.  It seems to clip on the attack, and the 'zzzzt' lasts longer than the guitar's attack, making it more noticeable.  so really you want to limit your attack outside the Pod.  i suggest using some kind of limiter.  You'll only diminish your attack when you strum hard, not overall volume or sustain.  basically that really strong initial sound off your pick will hit a brick wall volume wise.

i think i may actually do this myself, since i have hot pickups, but i generally play around the problem or turn down the guitar volume knob.

Another workaround would be to turn down the guitar volume knob and use some kind of compression in the Pod and set it to not boost the attack but bring up the volume on the sustain.



Re: Getting the evidence to look at
by dftpunk on 2011-01-31 03:24:43

2jeff

putting a volume pedal pre or rolling off my volume to solve digital clipping isnt an  acceptable way to cure the problem

You're absolutely right, it's not a solution is only the way to determine where's the problem.

And to those who told that "It's a real amp simulation": Why I can't hear the fizzes when connect to the REAL AMP without POD... Where's that thing that POD "simulates"?



Re: Getting the evidence to look at
by JerryWawak on 2011-01-31 07:06:37

For what it's worth, in my case at least, the extent of the harshness depends on which guitar I use.  Not sure if it's the output level or the brightness of the pickups, but some of my guitars are really bad.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by ricksox on 2011-01-31 10:54:46

I need to get one of these units back. If anyone is interested please let me know and I can have the RAM set up. Without us having a POD here that reproduces this we wont be able to get to the bottom of it. Please let me know if any of you would like to work with me to get this going. Thanks.

Line6Miller



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by Texxxxx on 2011-01-31 11:18:40

Mine does the clipping, but it is pretty minimal compared to the links that joehelias posted from 'The Gear Page'.  I would be glad to work with you, Line6 Miller on this.  I'm down in Monterey, CA.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by ricksox on 2011-01-31 11:26:55

Texxxxx wrote:

Mine does the clipping, but it is pretty minimal compared to the links that joehelias posted from 'The Gear Page'.  I would be glad to work with you, Line6 Miller on this.  I'm down in Monterey, CA.

I created a support ticket for you so we can resolve this issue. Please respond to the ticket. Thanks.

Q: What is a support ticket?

A: A support ticket allows you to directly correspond with a Line 6 Support Representative. An email will be sent to you from Line 6 containing a link if a Line 6 support representative determines that a ticket is necessary to troubleshoot your issue. Please follow the link in the email to view your open ticket to work one on one with Line 6 Support.

Please note: Sometimes support tickets will be filtered to spam and junk folders. If you did not receive an email from us indicating that a ticket has been created, please make sure to check those folders in your email host.

http://line6.com/account/tickets/view/

Line6Miller



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by Texxxxx on 2011-01-31 12:56:45

I have to apologize to all, as I won't be able to RMA my HD500 to check this out.

As I stated earlier in the thread the clipping is managable for me at this point as I use it live, in studio/direct mode with only preamps.  Mine doesn't do it as bad as the clips from 'The Gear Page'.

Mine sounds more like the clips amgamg posted on pages 10 and 11 of this thread.  I hear clipping in those, and I wouldn't be surprised if all the clipping went away when they solve the 'Ringing Tone Bug' and the 'Dual Amp Bug', all of which I think could be related.

Hey, but what do I know?

Sorry to waste your time Mr. Miller.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by JerryWawak on 2011-01-31 13:07:45

what is this ringtone bug and dual amp bug?  some of my problems were on dual amp tones.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by jeff5x0 on 2011-01-31 13:20:27

Hey Miller. Id love to send mine in, but I have an issue with that. I havent decided if I want to keep the unit yet. I have 27 days left on return policy. I guess if it could be guaranteed that I would get it back before March 1 st I wouldnt have a problem with it. But Im not gonna take a chance and lose out on my 550 bucks if it cant be returned by then. Id need something in writing though that clarified it would be returned before March 1st.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by Mrwonka on 2011-01-31 13:44:48

I mean, this is just crazy now.  Can't we get a statement from line6 regarding this issue?  Maybe they could come out and at least say that don't believe it to be an issue and we can mvoe on?  Or say, we will be addressing it in the next update?!

I don't know abotu you guys, but the U2 presets are unplayable for me on the HD500.  Where as the U2 streets xt patch works great to this day for me.  The clip[ping is to extreme and sound bad.  The only clean amp I can get to work is the ac30-tb.  but on high enough volume it will clip on the bridge pickups.  I'm using a les paul studio btw.  No issues with clipping on the xt, but this unit and the clean sound don't work right for me.  It really sucks and I feel helpless.  I guess I'll write to line6 and see what they say.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by ricksox on 2011-01-31 13:46:39

The statement is that we are investigating it. What else can I possibly say? I'm not going to say either way if this is an issue until I hear it in front of me. I'm in the process of trying to get some units back now.

Line6Miller



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by ricksox on 2011-01-31 13:47:21

Yes, I could make that happen for you. Please let me know if you're good with that and I'll get a ticket going.

Line6Miller



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by jeff5x0 on 2011-01-31 13:49:58

I completely understand where Line 6 is coming from here. All units clearly dont have this issue. I was just talking to Karl about this through pm. They need their hands on one so they can test it and see where the issue lies. I think thats completely fair. I just dont want to take a chance on losing the money I paid out on this thing. Im not positive I want to keep it yet with these issues. Kind of a catch 22 here.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by jeff5x0 on 2011-01-31 13:57:38

Miller let me get back to you in a little while. I hate to say this here on this forum, but I am taking my guitar up to GC to try it on a different brand unit. One that has dual output modes. I want to make sure the problem does not lie within my guitar. The other unit has a Tru Z input so I want to see how my guitar re-acts to that. Ill post back in a few hours and if my heart is still set on the 500, we will make this happen. And Miller, thank you very much for taking your personal time in looking into this matter.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by Bluestone on 2011-01-31 14:12:28

PM me if you need another 500....

for testing

I still have both shipping boxes...

OM



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2011-01-31 14:20:58

jeff5x0 wrote:

I am taking my guitar up to GC to try it on a different brand unit...

The other unit has a Tru Z input ...

Tru Z™.  All patents applied for.   So much for anonymity of that other unit.

I'd urge anyone that is exhibiting this issue to send a unit to Line6 support for diagnosis.  Can anyone remember the X3 USB dropout problem?  Part of the problem there was being able to isolate a unit in the wild that could reproduce the problem, and THEN getting someone who would be willing to send that unit in for testing.  Sounds like we have a couple of people who have the problem, but nobody wants to take the next step?



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by MickSlick on 2011-01-31 14:22:12

My two have already been returned.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by meambobbo on 2011-01-31 14:35:41

Miller,

Are you saying that none of the units you have on hand can get the clipping, even when you strum EXTREMELY hard DIRECTLY over the bridge pickup, and are using high output humbucking pickups, like EMG's or Blackouts?

I really thought this was a universal problem, only some ppl didn't play in a style that would create it or had low output pickups.

If you really think this is only affecting a few units, I'd be happy to SWAP my unit out for another.  Let me post some clips later tonight to make sure I'm on the same page with everyone.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by ricksox on 2011-01-31 14:40:13

Swapping out the POD doesn't guarantee you will get a new that doesn't exhibit this behavior. Again, I'd like to reiterate here that this has not been determined by anyone at Line 6 as a bug or design issue or anything like that. I'm waiting for some responses from product development and sound design.

And no, I cannot get my POD to "clip" like you here in the sound clips provided by various other members responding to this thread. Go back and take a listen to the clip I posted. Do you hear any clipping? That was a patch provided by another user claiming to have this issue. I was banging on the strings very hard.

Line6Miller



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by cGil on 2011-01-31 14:41:18

Oh now you say send 'em in, after I give up and trade mine in and all.  Bummer!        The digital distortion hash was definitely in that HD500; and yet, because there was so much debate and doubt about those reporting it, as well as endless debate over the lack of evidence of it in the reps and volunteer expert's HD units, I figured I wouldn't win the fight claiming mine was defective and took the hit on the trade in value.    Arrrrgh.       Oh well.  Live and learn. 

Not to late for Line 6, though.  Pensacola GC's gotta sit on it for 30 days; so there's still  time to recall that unit from the dealer and check it out. 

Gil...



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by ricksox on 2011-01-31 14:44:07

I'm not hearing Fizz or Hash here. I'm hearing something that sounds like digital clipping on the input of the POD. I really want to make sure we are not confusing all of these things.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by Texxxxx on 2011-01-31 15:01:44

I am hearing only the digital clipping, and that is all I am talking about.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by ricksox on 2011-01-31 15:02:32

Great. Thanks for clarifying. It's really important that we all understand what we are looking for and what we are hearing.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by cGil on 2011-01-31 15:11:08

Okay, fwiw, I could NOT get the HD's guitar input AD converter to clip, no matter what I did.  I use Fender TexMex p'ups in my Strat, Alnico II's in one Lester, and a Pearly Gates and P94 in another.  Nothing overly dramatic, but I wire my Lesters for series/parallel & coil taps, so I KNOW how to use it to overdrive most stuff.  Not the HD500's inputs.  Those wouldn't clip for me with the other model level rolled down.    It's been my impression that the elusive digital clipping noise is somehow within as well as between model blocks, as well as within some of the amp models. 

IIRC, I believe my first logged complaint was regarding the sound of fresh caps in the BF Double model (which was most often interpreted by others as the digital hash).  It very well could've been just that.   With firmware 1.2 that one amp model's "hash" became intermittent, so again I strongly suspected that it's all in the firmware.  And yet, if your firmware is not causing the same hash on your unit, that forces me toward thinking it's likely related to component tolerance variances somewhere between the I/O ADA converters.    That's a lot of circuit ground to cover.  I wish you guys all the luck.

Gil...



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by timowens on 2011-01-31 19:00:25

JerryWawak wrote:

what is this ringtone bug and dual amp bug?  some of my problems were on dual amp tones.

Check out this thread, it has a list of the confirmed bugs and links to the threads that discuss them, it should answer your questions http://line6.com/community/thread/51515



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by jeff5x0 on 2011-01-31 20:18:38

Just to follow up Miller....I took mine back tonight. Im trying something else for the next 30 days. Im curious though, Im assuming all of the units that get brought back to store dont get shipped back to you guys? I dont understand how it works, but I guess they dont. I know you dont actually make the Pods there, but I didnt know how returns worked. I think Blue said he has one he can send, maybe pm him. I sincerely hope you guys get to the bottom of this. I sincerely thank everyone who has put effort into this thread. I still think the Pod has the ability to be an amazing product (it already is for most users!) and I will revisit it again in the future.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by meambobbo on 2011-01-31 21:43:46

so i'm about halfway done testing stuff.  i've found some interesting stuff out. going straight into my audio interface, with the gain turned all the way down, i recorded my guitars with the blackouts.  i had the pickups set pretty close to the strings, and i found they didn't necessarily clip the signal, but there was severe limiting and compressing.  it didn't necessarily sound good, so i lowered the pickups until i could see the attack properly diminish without any clear limiting going on.  now the guitars actually sound a lot better (and more like guitars).  so then i tried to see if i was getting clipping on the Pod, and no, it sounds fine so far - bypass, blackface, ac-30, using default settings.  i'll be sure to try some of the posted patches next.

the petrucci guitar still is clipping, but this actually clips the direct input to my interface as well as the Pod bypass.  i actually think it's less noticeable on the amps.  the clipping on the interface sounds slightly different than the Pod, but I can't say it's any more severe.  i need to lower the pole-pieces on the pickups.  i raised the inner ones on each humbucker to try to get a louder single coil level compared to the humbuckers (the middle position on the 3-way switch is the inner single coils of each humbucker).  i'll be back.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by meambobbo on 2011-01-31 23:16:33

ok, i raised the action on the petrucci and that tamed things down as far as my overall input level.  i've generally got everything clean, except the blackface full model.  attached is my clip of first the pre then the full, using default settings except setting gain to 0.

(the different output levels were a mistake - i was trying to level them post recording.  the full model was actually recorded at a lower volume than the pre.)



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by amgamg on 2011-02-01 04:54:00

Anyone sending theirs in????? I would have thought some of you guys would have jumped at the chance.

No matter....Hats off to Miller and Line6 for doing the right thing...making an attempt greater than just words. Maybe someone will send one in....would be interesting to see what happens.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by cGil on 2011-02-01 06:38:08

I'm actually kinda bummed that I lost faith and gave mine up.  And as it turned out, only a moment too soon!   I would much rather have sent it in so the bugs could be identified and resolved.   Even more important, is that whatever Line6 learns from debugging these can be applied to whipping the HD Pro into shape before it's released.   That's important to me cuz I'm pretty sure I'm gonna have a most severe GAS attack when the HD Pro's do hit the market.

Gil...



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by amgamg on 2011-02-01 06:42:35

What makes ya think theres gonna be a pro?



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by Minski86 on 2011-02-01 06:43:10

Line6Miller,

I bought my HD500 the day they came out and noticed digital clipping about a couple weeks after.  This was before any of these threads opened up discussing the issue.  At that time, I assumed that is was just my guitar clipping the unit.  I really haven't been using it very much and have reverted to using my X3 Live for gigs instead.

I would like to confirm that I can recreate the digital clipping tonight when I get home, but I will gladly send mine in if you don't have one coming from someone else.

PS:  I also have a broken expression pedal bolt that has yet to be replaced...



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by JerryWawak on 2011-02-01 06:53:03

Before I raise my hand and volunteer to send mine in, I want to sit down with it and really go through all the variables.  Try all of the suggestions listed here.  Eliminate all external variables and make sure there is a problem with the unit and not some outside factor or user error.  After I do that, I don't mind sending it in.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by AZGdude on 2011-02-01 07:47:29

Line6Miller wrote:

I need to get one of these units back. If anyone is interested please let me know and I can have the RAM set up. Without us having a POD here that reproduces this we wont be able to get to the bottom of it. Please let me know if any of you would like to work with me to get this going. Thanks.

Line6Miller

Line6Miller,

I would consider sending mine back, but I am no longer sure if I have the clipping issue or the upper register hash/white noise problem or if they are really one and the same, just at different levels of severity. Let me explain. A few days ago I went through and cleaned and completely reset up my guitar while doing a string change (and yes I know how to do a proper setup, been doing it for years, not to mention my current guitar came with a pretty thorough setup manual). A friend of mine convinced me to try a little higher action for a few months saying I will eventually conclude that the easier bending is worth the more difficult chord fretting. As of now I am still preferring the feel of my old lower action setup, but the one benefit I have noticed is that I am no longer getting the obvious digital clipping sound others have documented. My pickup heights are a hair lower with this new setup and I suppose I get slightly less string buzz when really hitting the strings hard due to the higher action, but overall little has changed and string buzz was not really a problem on my old setup.

So to try and get to the point, I can no longer get what sounds like obvious digital clipping, but instead a harsh underlying upper register hash or white noise on some models when strumming chords hard. It is noticeable on several amp models, but I think it might be most obvious to me with the Hiway 100. If I reduce the volume to around a 6 on my JB bridge pickup the noise cleans up mostly. But I do not find this an acceptable solution because it dramatically changes the tone of the pickup and this guitar has never had a problem plugged into any other amp, modeler, or computer interface. So at this point I feel like I have gone full circle and I am back where I started (see first post in this tread). Under certain circumstances, my HD500 does not sound good and I am not sure what to do about it?



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by AZGdude on 2011-02-01 08:00:08

jeff5x0 wrote:

Just to follow up Miller....I took mine back tonight. Im trying something else for the next 30 days.

Jeff, I would love to hear your impressions on your new mystery unit with the Tru Z input   I am down to believing that all of the problems we have been having with the HD's might of been averted with something like the Tru Z input.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by jeff5x0 on 2011-02-01 08:30:50

Well in a nut shell, I plugged in with my guitar AND cord, switched to a clean channel and immediately strummed as hard as I could. No clipping. Out of respect for the Line 6 community I will not go into details here. PM me and Ill let you know what I think thus far. I am still watching this thread though in hopes that this issue can be resolved. I wish I would have had time to ask GC to pull out another Pod while I was there with my guitar, but I had to go to the store that was 50 miles away from me, and we were/are having a massive winter storm here, so I needed to get home.

I hope someone is willing to send in their unit, have you thought about it AZ? I was distressed with the decision last night. I see where Line 6 is coming from, like Karl mentioned they need a unit for testing, but at the same time, being a new user, having had 2 of them, and not sure I could get my specific unit back for return by March 1st (GC goes by serial numbers) I just had to pass on it. Not willing to risk 550.00 and be stuck with something that is not functioning correctly OR at least as I perceive to be not functioning correctly.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by jeff5x0 on 2011-02-01 08:39:34

My action is VERY low on my strat. But I have confirmed the pups are in the right spot. Low action=clipping? Thats odd. The thing that bothers me the most is clipping on stock single coils. These pups are not hot at all. Hopefully this issue gets resolved, whether its user error, poor guitar setup?????, bad batch of Pods, or poor input design. I still stand by my statement that this is a great unit (the dirt channels are just fantastic!) and that I just couldnt get it to work for me personally on the clean side.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by dftpunk on 2011-02-01 08:46:08

Guys It's not about input. I still think the rpoblem is in Full Amps modelling as there's no clipping with Pre models in StackPWRAMP or ComboPWRAMP mode. Does anybody have clipping with PRE models and Stack/Combo PWRAMP modes?



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by meambobbo on 2011-02-01 10:08:26

Can anyone confirm that there is clipping in the clip I last posted in the full model of the blackface?  It sounds pretty dirty to me, but I'm not sure if it's digital clipping or just amp distortion (not sure if there should be amp distortion considering I set the drive to 0%).  The "pre" is ultra clean.

Raising the action on my guitar helped.  Before this it would clip going direct into my interface as well as the Pod.  I bet the initial fret buzz caused by the lower action really spiked the signal.  The pickups really aren't much further away from the strings than they previously were.  Yet, now I can only get clipping on the blackface full (if confirmed as clipping).  Bypass and blackface pre are completely clean.

The Pod's input has to clip at some point - A/D converters simply can't work at all input levels.  I'm not sure I'd consider this a problem, so long as it is rare and difficult to achieve a hot enough signal to make it clip.  I don't expect the Pod to handle signals so hot that they clip my computer interface.  I've adjusted my gear accordingly and the Pod is performing as expected.

The differences between the "pre" and "full" blackface is something different.

I don't really care about this issue, personally; but if you can hear clipping on my unit and want me to send it in, I'll do it to help others.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by joehelias on 2011-02-01 10:10:44

No its not about the input which likely means its not about pickup output or height. This is very easily tested just by going into tuner/bypass mode. The tuner mode WILL NOT clip no matter how hard I hit the strings on any of my guitars. Neither do the preamp only models in studio direct mode. Not sure about the combo out settings as I almost never use them. I'm still looking at the power amp sim as the most likely culprit but who knows?

The other thing to consider that has been repeated many times, is that the pad and none of the available HD volume controls (channel, mstr, mixer) do anything to lessen the clipping. This IS strange becasue rolling the guitar volume down DOES remove the clipping. Is it possible that the pad is on the output (that would be weird) and that all the volume controls are post amp sim? Also 2 other things change when you roll down the guitar volume pot besides the volume. One is impedance and the other is tone (less treble).  Can this be a factor?

Anyway, I'm at the day job now. But when I get home tonight I want to do a little more testing and then I will see about boxing this thing up and sending it to L6. It may have to wait a couple days as most of the country will be digging out from snow and ice.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by jeff5x0 on 2011-02-01 10:14:25

It was a pretty short clip. To me the first part didnt sound like it was clipping but the second did albeit slightly.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by jeff5x0 on 2011-02-01 10:16:19

Thats a great observation Joe. I never thought about the tuner mode. I never had any clipping when I was in tuner mode.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by joehelias on 2011-02-01 10:20:07

meambobbo I can confirm that I hear light clipping on this recording. Unbelievable that it clips @ ZERO gain. My clips were done with the gain at 17% (9:00 or roughly 2 outta 10)) which is SQUEAKY clean on a real twin. To me this proves that it cannot be the preamp.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by MickSlick on 2011-02-01 12:27:30

Just want to reinforce this point, the issue is not pre amp, it's all in the power amp modeling, the units I had were totally pure in pre amp mode, but when I needed to rely on the power amp / cab modeling going direct, this is where the problems were.  I need to have a direct to PA solution, and it was just unuseable.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by meambobbo on 2011-02-01 12:33:29

i'm in full agreement with joehelias about this being something in the power amp.

But I emphasize that I WAS clipping the input in bypass mode before I made adjustments to my guitar.  I have the sound clips to prove it.  After adjustments, my guitar output is much lower, and that clipping is gone.  The blackface full clipping remains.  In fact, it may have gotten worse.

As my clip shows - same strength picking and making sure all volume boosts are far below clipping territory - the pre stays clean, the full clips.

Miller, your thoughts?  Again, I'm willing to swap my unit out.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by joehelias on 2011-02-01 13:58:14

Ok yeah, I'm not saying its impossible to clip the input of the HD with certain setups but in my rig its definitely not happening there. I will also say that I have tried an analog boost pedal in front of my M13 with out any unwanted clipping so L6 obviously can and has built an input section that works with a wide range of input signals. Its certainly important to rule out clipping everywhere else in the chain and I am certain that those of us with this issue have done exactly that.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by maktub2 on 2011-02-02 07:51:09

Hello everyone,

I am very concerned about this issue.

This is my rig: Fender Strat (HSS)>POD Guitar Imput – POD ¼ Left Output>Combo Fender FM Power Amp In.

I had the POD output set up to COMBO PWR AMP (As it should be in my case). With this configuration I could notice some kind of white noise especially with the distortion amp models (J 800 for example), and it was impossible to set up a decent distortion in my patches. I tried using the M kind of effects without any amp model and I could find some nice distortion without the “frying bacon” effect. But I bought this unit for the AMP MODELING, not for the M effects!

I read every post in this forum and tried everything.

I found this: If I set the output configuration to STUDIO/DIRECT, with the same rig above, the white noise/harsh sound disappear. But I am not sure if this is the sound expected for the model.

Anyway this cannot be the ideal solution for this issue. HELP!!!



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by spaceatl on 2011-02-02 08:15:55

Have you checked the 1/4" out AMP/LINE switch?

Which Pod do you have?



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by Rowbi on 2011-02-02 08:26:41

maktub2 wrote:

Hello everyone,

I am very concerned about this issue.

This is my rig: Fender Strat (HSS)>POD Guitar Imput – POD ¼ Left Output>Combo Fender FM Power Amp In.

I had the POD output set up to COMBO PWR AMP (As it should be in my case). With this configuration I could notice some kind of white noise especially with the distortion amp models (J 800 for example), and it was impossible to set up a decent distortion in my patches. I tried using the M kind of effects without any amp model and I could find some nice distortion without the “frying bacon” effect. But I bought this unit for the AMP MODELING, not for the M effects!

I read every post in this forum and tried everything.

I found this: If I set the output configuration to STUDIO/DIRECT, with the same rig above, the white noise/harsh sound disappear. But I am not sure if this is the sound expected for the model.

Anyway this cannot be the ideal solution for this issue. HELP!!!

it doesn't sound like this is the issue people are talking about in this thread.  not saying we wont help, but let's try to keep this thread on target.  if you need help please open your own thread and we can all chip in there... but try what space said... also if you're trying to run high gain amp models (I assume you're trying the pre models) what about enabling the noise gate in the POD?  especially if you're using your single coils.  just a thought.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by maktub2 on 2011-02-02 09:36:43

I've got the POD HD500.Guitar In Switch: Normal. XLR Switch: Ground. 1/4" Out Switch: AMP.

I've tried the Hiway 100 wih output set to COMBO PWR AMP and it clips too. I hear the same kind of problem joehelias posted on page 10 with almost every model. I think it could be the same problem.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by cGil on 2011-02-02 09:42:15

Yeah the white noise thing is a different issue from the hf harshness in the amp models.    Try setting your first input to Guitar only to eliminate the RFI sneaking in through the unused inputs.  Also set the second input to "same".  That should reduce a lot of hum and hiss and make the amps nice and quiet, like they oughta be in real life.  Exceptions being the older amps with the death caps like the Gibson.  Those will hum a bit more than the more modern amps with proper grounding.   

Gil...



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by spaceatl on 2011-02-02 10:55:24

If you are plugging the 1/4 out to the power amp input, I think you might get less noisey results using the LINE position of the 1/4 out switch...The impedance is also slightly different as the AMP setting is for hitting the FRONT Modes generally speaking...



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by catalano on 2011-02-02 11:33:55

Not to mention that there's hardly any volume if you have it set to amp and plug into the power amp in.  The first time I tried it that way I had the master output of the POD at max and plugged into the fx return of a stack and I could barely be heard with the band playing.

If you are plugging the 1/4 out to the power amp input, I think you might get less noisey results using the LINE position of the 1/4 out switch...The impedance is also slightly different as the AMP setting is for hitting the FRONT Modes generally speaking...



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by maktub2 on 2011-02-02 13:34:26

Ok, this is my setup:

Fender Strat (HSS) > POD Guitar IN - POD 1/4" Out > Fender FM PWR Amp IN.

1/4" Out: Line

Imput 1 Source: Guitar

Imput 2 Source: Same

I recorded the SUPER O PRE with the default settings. The first part is recorded with COMBO PWR AMP mode, the second part is recorded with STUDIO/DIRECT mode.

I find the STUDIO/DIRECT mode more "muscular" and less harsh than with the COMBO PWR AMP mode.

Any idea?



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by spaceatl on 2011-02-02 13:41:28

Yes, that is the way it is supposed to work...Only Studio Direct is meant for direct recording...The other modes are using with a guitar amp where the high end is filtered off by the speaker. Not really meant for direct recording unless you plan to put your own cab and mic IR on it...

Perhaps you are looking for Dual Mode...

At this point the HD500 does NOT support Dual Output Modes...The HD400/300 do have Dual Output mode...Recorded Fizz off the Live modes is to be expected...

We have likely digressed this thread enough...Sounds like you are having other issues, please create a new thread and mark it as question folks will jump in to help you...This is a little difficult to manage of page 16...



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by meambobbo on 2011-02-02 13:46:25

your clips to me sound like what they're supposed to sound like in each mode.  the output mode primarily affects how the cab and mic simulations work.  in studio/direct mode, they are true speaker and mic simulations, having a profound effect on the EQ of the tone and can even affect its more fundamental characteristics.  in other modes, they act simply as a mild EQ effect, designed to make whatever speaker you're actually using sound more like the cab model selected on the Pod.

so basically, in studio/direct mode, when using cab/mic simulation on the Pod, and going into a real amp and speakers, you should get a very mid-heavy sound, with the highs especially rolled off.  The sound is often more compressed or "tight".  in other modes, the sound should be looser and harsher.

for the record, I much prefer the first half of your clip than the second.  I don't find the tone harsh at all - there is some high end in there, but it's not over-powering at all.

I find running studio/direct mode with cab/mic simulation into a real amp and speakers makes the sound too honky/punchy/nasally.  it gives me a headache, but it's hard to explain.

finally, keep in mind that it doesn't matter what output mode you use if you set the cab simulation to "no cab".  i generally keep my pod in studio/direct mode, and when I want to use my real amp and cab, I use patches that use "no cab".



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by maktub2 on 2011-02-02 14:24:12

Definitely I would like to continue this discussion in another thread. I am creating it right now: Output modes: which one to choose?



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by meambobbo on 2011-02-03 11:34:00

So I tested a little more.  I believe the problem is both in certain models AND has to do with input level.  the only amp i find it's REALLY noticeable on is the blackface full; however, I haven't tested all the amps.

When I use the middle position on my 3-way switch (coil tap both humbuckers - dual single coils), there's a good output drop, compared to my bridge humbucker.  On these pickups, the blackface FULL stays clean.  With the bridge humbucker, which has higher output, it does not.  The blackface PRE stays clean for both pickup selections.  Bypassing all amps and effects is also crystal clean.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by meambobbo on 2011-02-03 11:35:19

Line6Miller, do you want me to send my unit back?  Please PM me, and we can discuss.



HD300/400 "dual mode" vs. HD500 "no dual mode"
by Brion_Kean on 2011-02-04 07:45:28

How does the "dual output mode" function on the 300 and 400?

It KILLS me that the 500 can't do anything remotely resembling dual output mode, even with the $1,200+ DT50 rig. IE, you still cannot send "studio direct" to the XLR and an approriate no cab/no mic signal to an amp (DT50 or any other)



Re: HD300/400 "dual mode" vs. HD500 "no dual mode"
by AZGdude on 2011-02-04 07:58:26

Brion, can you please stop hijacking this thread. This tread is about digital clipping and noise issues.

Thank you.



Hot pickups too close to strings = aweful tone and clipping
by Crusty_Old_Rocker on 2011-02-04 08:02:03

meambobbo wrote:

it didn't necessarily sound good, so i lowered the pickups until i could see the attack properly diminish without any clear limiting going on.  now the guitars actually sound a lot better (and more like guitars).

Hadn't anyone told you that putting the pickups too close to strings causes "magnetic pull"?  What happens is the magnets in the pickups interferes with the vibration of the string and that will reduce sustain and really mess with the harmonics too.

I wonder how many others who are experiencing problems have decided that it's a good idea to put their pickups too close to the strings?

Also when splitting a humbucker, the single coil won't be as loud as the humbucker and adjusting pole pieces is not going to overcome the difference in the levels.  All you'll do is suck the tone out of the guitar through magnetic pull.

I would strongly recommend you take your guitar to a qualified and experienced luthier to correctly set it up and once it is set up correctly, don't wreck that setup by messing around with it.

Cheers,

Crusty



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by AZGdude on 2011-02-04 08:04:11

Hello...    Anyone at Line 6 still working on this? It has been days since we last heard a peep from Line 6 on the digital clipping / harsh noise issues.



Output modes - which ones to use?
by Crusty_Old_Rocker on 2011-02-04 08:05:10

maktub2 wrote:

Definitely I would like to continue this discussion in another thread. I am creating it right now: Output modes: which one to choose?

Might I suggest to start off with reading the manuals?

Cheers,

Crusty



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2011-02-04 08:06:12

AZGdude wrote:

Hello...    Anyone at Line 6 still working on this? It has been days since we last heard a peep from Line 6 on the digital clipping / harsh noise issues.

Line6Miller is looking for volunteers with units that are exhibiting these systems to send their unit in for diagnosis.  I see one person has offered.  Any more?



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by ricksox on 2011-02-04 08:07:32

Hi guys,

I'm still looking into this. I should have something for you guys today regarding this issue. Hang tight and I'll chime back in soon.

Line6Miller



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by Brion_Kean on 2011-02-04 08:09:21

When using the combo or stack poweramp modes : are you hearing the clipping from your actual rig, your "live" amp? Or just in the direct recording? Or both?

I believe it's there, totally hear it, nasty-ness. BUT, I also hear that mess of sound when I did any direct recording, or monitoring to FR speakers, when using combo or stack poweramp mode.

However, the sound of combo poweramp or stack, to my actual rig is beauty, lovelyness. Mic that up, and you are good to go.

So, I guess, maybe I am mixing up apples and oranges, by mentioning that



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by AZGdude on 2011-02-04 08:17:26

Karl_Houseknecht wrote:

AZGdude wrote:

Hello...    Anyone at Line 6 still working on this? It has been days since we last heard a peep from Line 6 on the digital clipping / harsh noise issues.

Line6Miller is looking for volunteers with units that are exhibiting these systems to send their unit in for diagnosis.  I see one person has offered.  Any more?

I said I would consider it days ago, but never had any response so I assumed they have what they need. That being said, I don't really believe there is anything wrong with mine this is not wrong with all of them. But if they want to swap mine out I guess I am willing to do it.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by AZGdude on 2011-02-04 08:19:54

Line6Miller wrote:

Hi guys,

I'm still looking into this. I should have something for you guys today regarding this issue. Hang tight and I'll chime back in soon.

Line6Miller

Great! We will be looking forward to it.



Clipping is caused by the ouput of the guitar being too high
by Crusty_Old_Rocker on 2011-02-04 08:22:05

meambobbo wrote:


I believe the problem is both in certain models AND has to do with input level.  the only amp i find it's REALLY noticeable on is the blackface full; however, I haven't tested all the amps.

When I use the middle position on my 3-way switch (coil tap both humbuckers - dual single coils), there's a good output drop, compared to my bridge humbucker.  On these pickups, the blackface FULL stays clean.  With the bridge humbucker, which has higher output, it does not.  The blackface PRE stays clean for both pickup selections.  Bypassing all amps and effects is also crystal clean.

Quite a few of us have been stating all along that the output on guitars that are way too hot are the cause of the problem.

What is the output LEVEL (not impedance) of your guitar pickups (in mV)?  Any guitarist who doesn't know how to measure this to ensure they're not exceeding the normal range that a guitar operates in, then they really shouldn't be swapping out or adjusting pickups.

It would be very helpful if everyone experiencing clipping could measure and report the output level of their pickups.

Cheers,

Crusty



Re: HD300/400 "dual mode" vs. HD500 "no dual mode"
by spaceatl on 2011-02-04 08:25:55

That is NOT true Brion. Not calling you out or anything...Just that I think you have some misinformation on the DT50 and how it works with an HD POD...

The DT50 is nothing like a conventional amp when used with the HD POD over the link...If you have a DT-50, it has studio mode built in to it's XLR output...In terms of the HD/DT50 rig, the idea is to get the outputs to the backline...The recomended way to run a DT-50 is to set the POD to combo pwr (stack for the head) and you take the XLR direct of the DT-50...It tracks your cab and mic selections, but they are not being rendered in the POD...the are being rendered by the modeler in the DT-50...The best direct out I have EVER heard from Line 6 is the DT-50 direct out...just my opinion...So, running the recomended way, you can have your cake and eat it too with a DT-50 and an HD500...

Anyway, to answer your question, the HD300/400 has a switch that the HD500 does not have...When the switch is set to Studio Mode, the soft output selections in the HD300/400 have no meaning...When you are in Dual Mode, the Left outs (all of them) is the LIVE output (Your soft menu output selection of combo front, stack etc..) and the right output is Studio direct...This is in the headphones also...This is also explained fairly clearly in the 300/400 Advanced Guides...It works quite nicely for me as I have run my HD400 with one of my SVs before I got the DT50...HD400 is a great live performance board I think...Sure the chain is a bit limited, but it is pretty close to the old XT chain and I can deal with that...I think the physical output mode switch is one of the best ideas Line 6 has come up with...I always hated the headphone auto stuido mode in the XT...

Does this make a little more sense now?



Isolate the problem before reporting it
by Crusty_Old_Rocker on 2011-02-04 08:32:16

JerryWawak wrote:

Before I raise my hand and volunteer to send mine in, I want to sit down with it and really go through all the variables.  Try all of the suggestions listed here.  Eliminate all external variables and make sure there is a problem with the unit and not some outside factor or user error.

It would be cool if everyone had done this before jumping into this thread.  The first step in troubleshooting is to isolate the problem.

Cheers,

Crusty



Re: Clipping is caused by the ouput of the guitar being too high
by AZGdude on 2011-02-04 08:35:53

Crusty_Old_Rocker wrote:


Quite a few of us have been stating all along that the output on guitars that are way too hot are the cause of the problem.

What is the output LEVEL (not impedance) of your guitar pickups (in mV)?  Any guitarist who doesn't know how to measure this to ensure they're not exceeding the normal range that a guitar operates in, then they really shouldn't be swapping out or adjusting pickups.

It would be very helpful if everyone experiencing clipping could measure and report the output level of their pickups.

Cheers,

Crusty


This might be true in some situations, but I believe that mass majority of people with this problem only have it with the POD HD. If they plug into ANY other device there is no problem. I personally don't know what my output levels are in mV or how to actually measure this. I do know that my guitar has never had a problem plugged into any other amp, modeler, or computer interface. Kind of hard to blame my guitar in this situation. Furthermore, outside of not knowing the mV output I know my guitar is perfectly setup and completely within the specifications of both the guitar manufacture and the pickup manufacture.



Re: Clipping is caused by the ouput of the guitar being too high
by spaceatl on 2011-02-04 08:41:49

+1

Did you know that pull-snapping the low E on a guitar with something like a passive PAF pro can poop out a 12 volt transisent? Not matter how hard you tried, an EMG will never do that...why? is has a solid state output buffer...passive pickups are inductors...The output is proportional to input without the brickwall limit of a solid-state buffer...jus sayin...



Re: Clipping is caused by the ouput of the guitar being too high
by Crusty_Old_Rocker on 2011-02-04 08:46:45

Then if you're guitar is 100% stock standard (no replacement pickups) and you haven't put the pickups right next to the strings, then your POD is probably a good candidate to be sent in for testing.

Cheers,

Crusty



Re: Clipping is caused by the ouput of the guitar being too high
by spaceatl on 2011-02-04 08:52:03

+1



Re: Clipping is caused by the ouput of the guitar being too high
by Crusty_Old_Rocker on 2011-02-04 08:56:51

spaceatl wrote:

+1

Did you know that pull-snapping the low E on a guitar with something like a passive PAF pro can poop out a 12 volt transisent? Not matter how hard you tried, an EMG will never do that...why? is has a solid state output buffer...passive pickups are inductors...The output is proportional to input without the brickwall limit of a solid-state buffer...jus sayin...

Exactly!  Normal output is around the 100mV to 1000mV (RMS) range.  Smacking 12 volts peaks into solid state componentry that is desinged to have no where near that is going to clip something, that's for sure.

Add heavy enough strings and you could start your car with it.

Cheers,

Crusty



Re: Clipping is caused by the ouput of the guitar being too high
by spaceatl on 2011-02-04 09:01:06

So are you thinking what I am thinking Crusty? We need to get a Chevy volt, and replace the charging system with a 1/4 inch jack...They all we need to do is sit in the back seat, put on a set of 52s, drop tune to B and jam while our old ladies drive us where we need to go...That would remove my dependence on gasoline...



Re: Clipping is caused by the ouput of the guitar being too high
by Crusty_Old_Rocker on 2011-02-04 09:06:05

Well I was thinking bigger.

Get rid of all this solar panel rubbish and get all the shred kiddies to plug their drop tuned guitars with over baked pickups into the electricity grid and start playing.

But your idea has real merit, wire up a guitarist and bassist in the back seat, the drummer can sit in the passenger seat and tap along on the dashboard while the driver takes care of the vocals.  You could rip out the car stereo because that only uses up power.

Cheers,

Crusty



Re: Clipping is caused by the ouput of the guitar being too high
by jeff5x0 on 2011-02-04 10:06:43

Yup that was my experience as well.



Re: Clipping is caused by the ouput of the guitar being too high
by MickSlick on 2011-02-04 12:00:20

Just so we don't get sidetracked again, the clipping I experienced had nothing to do with "hot" output pickups or pickups adjusted too high.  The problem was substantially more evident with humbucker's, because they have natrually more output, but could also be heard to a lesser extent with single coils.  All of my humbucker set ups had the problem with include Semyour Duncan Sh1 / Sh4's with heights adjusted to manufacturer specification, Carvin hums adjusted to spec., and PRS 57/08's adjusted to spec.  It was also clearly evident with Seymour Duncan P90's (sp90 1-n' sp90 1-b) adusted to spec.  None of these pickup sets are considered "hot".  Again, and again, please don't try to wave this off as user error, someone missed a setting, pickups too hot etc... it is a major problem, and I for one would like to see it resolved without further sidetracking.



Re: Clipping is caused by the ouput of the guitar being too high
by spaceatl on 2011-02-04 12:06:37

Since it seems that you are fairly confident that you have the issue in your unit, have you contacted Mr. Miller regarding his previous post?



Re: Clipping is caused by the ouput of the guitar being too high
by MickSlick on 2011-02-04 12:10:23

Unfortunately I don't have one to return.  I purchased two units spent several weeks with both and returned both due to this issue.  I would love to see a solution or identification that there was indeed a bad batch before I purchase a third and invest another 100+ hours with it trying to make it useable, and spending more unrefunable shipping dollars returning units. I am not a Line 6 hater, i love their products and have been using them for years, thus why I am somewhat desperatley holding out for hope this can be fixed.



Re: Clipping is caused by the ouput of the guitar being too high
by spaceatl on 2011-02-04 12:19:57

Oh sorry Mick, I remember that now...



Re: Clipping is caused by the ouput of the guitar being too high
by meambobbo on 2011-02-04 15:32:28

Crusty, thanks for your feedback.  As much as anyone's supposed to know, you are the first one to name actual specs as for pickup/guitar output levels.  What would I need to measure this?

I have 3 guitars, and had a fourth a while back.  I set them all up, and I did a pretty good job with action, fret buzz, truss, intonation, saddle height, etc.  I've looked into pickup height before, and I never set a passive pickup real close to the strings.  I've used EMG's and set them fairly high, as the instructions say - I believe they user a weaker magnet than high-output passives.

On two of my guitars I've recently installed Blackouts, and recording them and looking at the audio after recording it, you can clearly see a harsh limiting and/or compression when the pickups are placed close to the strings.  This actually persists, but in decreasing amounts until they're set almost ALL the way down (even with the pickguard).  Then you can see the clear attack in the audio.  The peak output level seems similar.  However, recording the guitar direct to the audio interface, or to the Pod with no amp/bypass, it was clear that it'd have a farty kind of sound on harsh strumming, when the Blackouts were set higher.  Now the sound is nearly completely clean.  Anyway, since I set those guitars up and wired the pickups, I used my other guitar for most of my testing.

My other guitar is an Ernie Ball Music Man Petrucci sig.  I've raised and lowered the action, but haven't changed too much about this guitar.  I recently had the action set pretty low.  There was no compression/limiting like on the Blackouts, but the attack would peak out my M Audio Firewire Solo 1/4" input with its gain turned all the way down.

The pickups seem like they're screwed directly into the guitar, on the bottom of the pickup cavity.  So I'm not sure how to adjust them.  I've only raised the action.  (I needed to do this anyway, because my larger bends on the higher frets would fret out due to the fretboard radius at that action).  I tried first dropping the pole-pieces, which made a slight difference, but mainly the action really made the difference.  Now it clearly does not peak out anything, EXCEPT the Blackface Full.  Yet it must have something to do with the input level to the amp model, because this model does not clip on the single coils, which as you know have lower output (and experimenting with the pole pieces was a fail, as you also know).

It's kind of an issue because the analog amps that this digital device attempts to emulate would respond to such high inputs quite differently!



Re: Clipping is caused by the ouput of the guitar being too high
by silverhead on 2011-02-04 15:52:56

meambobbo wrote:

... Now it clearly does not peak out anything, EXCEPT the Blackface Full.  ....

It's kind of an issue because the analog amps that this digital device attempts to emulate would respond to such high inputs quite differently!

I've experienced something quite similar with my Variax 300. The Graphtech pickups I installed are hotter than the original lr baggs, but by using Workbench and lowering the string/pickup volume/output levels I've been able to tame it so that I get virtually no clipping anymore with an HD400. I noticed while doing this that the Blackface Full seemed most susceptible to clipping, especially with the Variax Les Paul Standard model.

Your closing comment has piqued my interest. I've never actually owned a Twin Reverb (which the Blackface models) - or any of the HD-vintage modeled amps. I own a Les Paul Deluxe with mini-humbuckers - not a Les Paul Standard with full humbuckers. And I don't own any of the other Variax electric guitar models. So I have no real knowledge of what these combinations of guitars/amps together 'should' sound like. I guess I figure that all things vintage and worthy of modeling should sound great.

Are you saying that playing a real Les Paul Standard with full humbuckers at full volume through a real Twin Reverb might also give poor performance? If that's true then doesn't it argue that the modeling is quite accurate? Is it true that in the analog rather than virtual world, certain great vintage guitars just don't play well together with certain great vintage amps?



Re: Clipping is caused by the ouput of the guitar being too high
by meambobbo on 2011-02-04 15:59:59

hehe, no, actually what i meant was that a real Fender wouldn't have any digital clipping, because as far as i know, there's no digital circuitry to clip.  if you fed it a guitar output level that is way "too hot", you might hear some kind of unwanted distortion, but I can guarantee it'd be different from the clipping we're hearing on the Pod, which seems to be digital.



Re: Clipping is caused by the ouput of the guitar being too high
by silverhead on 2011-02-04 16:02:18

I know it would not have digital clipping for the reason you mention, but if it has unwanted distortion isn't that just as bad? Doesn't that suggest that certain guitars and certain amps just don't match up well together? How is an accurate digital model supposed to account for unwanted analog distortion?



Re: Clipping is caused by the ouput of the guitar being too high
by cGil on 2011-02-04 16:53:04

Parts is parts, and everything's everything!  translation: bring a backup. Or two.  Of everything.  

At least with fresh-off-the-production-line amps you know the power supply/heater hum, the high frequency cap harshness, and the speaker cone cry will ALL smooth out and disappear after the first 100 hours of actual playing time on 'em.   With the HD amp model's quirks, who knows.  Could be stuck with some of it; including the ghost note phenomenon, which is usually considered evidence of poor and/or failing power supply filter caps (to an amp tech it means it's an amp that still needs fixing).  Yes, one of the modeled amps is reportedly built that way; but in that amp the ghost notes can be dialed out (and a sweet spot located) by turning down the gain just a notch.  And an amp like that is built precisely like that for the sake of getting as much of that exquisite compression & sag from the power supply as is possible with the amp cranked up to the sweet spot where it should be.    Easy enough (but maybe not so intuitive) to turn the amp and/or FX model's gain down on the HD and see if it helps both the harsh digital clipping and the various ghost note weirdness being reported here and there.  And then there's the sweet spots to consider.  Every amp has one.

Gil...



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by ricksox on 2011-02-04 17:02:32

OK guys, I’ve reached out and spoken to our sound designers and our product developers. Here’s the official statement about this.

"This “clipping” as it has been referred to throughout this thread, is not digital clipping. What is being heard could be heard that way but it is in fact behavior that occurs in most of the Class AB amps we modeled in the POD IE: HiWatt, Fender, etc.

In a Class AB amplifier (in the class B-zone) one tube is in cutoff while the other tube is conducting.  The brain interprets the large sweeping signal as a loud, clean signal.  But, those one-sided distortions happening in the background can still be detected, and the sharper the knee; the more high harmonic content is generated.  This sounds roughly like a square wave mixed in low behind the clean signal.  It's more dirt, more fuzz, and really does happen in a genuine class AB tube amplifier.

In a Class A amplifier, the amp is supposed to never allow either tube to go into cutoff.  That'd be great, but all the amps we’ve encountered eventually cause cutoff if the input signal is loud enough.  This is one of the appealing aspects of Class A amplifiers, that background distortion isn't there, and therefore the audio should sound "cleaner"/"clearer"/"more pure" or whatever other hi-fi term you'd like to apply.

The Class A amps on the POD (Supro, Vox AC15, Vox AC30TB, Gibson EH-185) will not create that fuzz or dirt that these A/B amps will."

Choosing to use only Class A amp models will probably not be the ideal solution (for those that it is a problem for) right now but be patient. We’ve got some cool things coming down the pipe that I think you guys will really like.

Line6Miller



Re: Clipping is caused by the ouput of the guitar being too high
by cGil on 2011-02-04 17:03:26

BTW, it's precisely the non-linear unbalanced distortions that are what makes a guitar through a tube amp sound so good.  That's what has caused modeler makers to go to such great lengths at trying to de-throne 'em!   Tubes still rule!

Gil...



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by meambobbo on 2011-02-04 17:08:27

well i am certainly eager to hear someone with one of these amps record a clip of the same distortion.

in any case, this is by no means a make or break for me.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by cGil on 2011-02-04 17:12:22

That's crossover distortion from a cold bias!  Also easy to fix.     Oh, and the Vox really aren't class A amps ya know, they're just cathode biased really warm at about 90% max plate dissipation, which means they're still operating in Class A/B!    Cathode biasing and a slight imbalance is how they get more even harmonics in the power tube's tone, but it can also get crossover distortion if the bias is set too cold.   Not sure about the Supro or the Gibson at the moment (still looking for schematics), but if there is more than one power tube involved, then I don't believe there is a single ended amp model available in the '16'.  Cathode biased? Sure.  But even single ended guitar amps are typically cathode biased below max dissipation or they'll cook the tubes!  Class A?  Nada one!  Sorry.

Gil...



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by Mrwonka on 2011-02-04 17:14:32

hey Miller, thanks for getting some feedback for us.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by ozbadman on 2011-02-04 17:52:41

Hey Line6Miller,

Can I interpret from your statement that there are no hardware issues, including "a bad batch", and the "really cool stuff" you're talking about is firmware stuff only?

Thanks,

David.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by amgamg on 2011-02-04 18:11:04

cool-thumb.jpgCool Stuff Coming..Now your talking!



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by jeff5x0 on 2011-02-04 21:11:01

Do I smell a JCM 120? Im not saying I dont believe what your guys are saying Miller....not at all. But I dont have this problem with other modelers. Now granted, we're not talking bout the hiwatt, but the Fender amps did clip (or fuzz out or whatever you want to call it) on the 500 for me. Anyways, hope you guys get it worked out! Ill keep watching for "the cool things coming" and maybe revisit the Pod in the future. I certainly appreciate the time you personally took to look into this.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by MickSlick on 2011-02-04 23:28:36

Well, crudmonkeys, I'm going to have to move on and look elsewhere for a next step up to my XTLive, the HD 500 just isn't workable direct due to the harsh / clipping.  Thanks for looking into it.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by dftpunk on 2011-02-05 01:05:18

This “clipping” as it has been referred to throughout this thread, is not digital clipping. What is.........BLA BLA BLA THE PROBLEM IS IN YOU BRAINS GUYS

Oh my god!!! What we've expected to hear!? They will never say their product fail.....You know it's that kind of answer when you want to avoid the original question and answer about something else. So that guy who gave his answer to you, Miller, is talking about something ele and not about the issue. I dont belive they modeled their amps to give us clipping on the output.. I AM ASKING AGAIN AND AGAIN: why I cant get such clipping with PRE models in PWRAMP mode? Because I should get it as that man said...

oh... and to interpret the last comment

Choosing to use only Class A amp models will probably not be the ideal solution...We’ve got some cool things coming down the pipe that I think you guys will really like.

Means... Guys. dont use that failed stupid amp we will brought new sh*t to you soon.... Goddamn...how they can tell us NOT TO USE some amps in their device? So they included some "not ideal solutions" in their device? Why? It seems that guy doesn't what he's talking about. Maybe I'm exaggerating something but it sounds that way.

And Miller that post not about you, thank you very much for trying to help us. Thanks.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by Rowbi on 2011-02-05 01:51:05

amgamg wrote:

cool-thumb.jpgCool Stuff Coming..Now your talking!

right on the button.....



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by Rowbi on 2011-02-05 02:03:02

dftpunk wrote:

This “clipping” as it has been referred to throughout this thread, is not digital clipping. What is.........BLA BLA BLA THE PROBLEM IS IN YOU BRAINS GUYS

Oh my god!!! What we've expected to hear!? They will never say their product fail.....You know it's that kind of answer when you want to avoid the original question and answer about something else. So that guy who gave his answer to you, Miller, is talking about something ele and not about the issue. I dont belive they modeled their amps to give us clipping on the output.. I AM ASKING AGAIN AND AGAIN: why I cant get such clipping with PRE models in PWRAMP mode? Because I should get it as that man said...

oh... and to interpret the last comment

Choosing to use only Class A amp models will probably not be the ideal solution...We’ve got some cool things coming down the pipe that I think you guys will really like.

Means... Guys. dont use that failed stupid amp we will brought new sh*t to you soon.... Goddamn...how they can tell us NOT TO USE some amps in their device? So they included some "not ideal solutions" in their device? Why? It seems that guy doesn't what he's talking about. Maybe I'm exaggerating something but it sounds that way.

And Miller that post not about you, thank you very much for trying to help us. Thanks.

I think the point is that if you actually had the real amps, it's the power amp part of the REAL amps that does this too in certain circumstances,.  that's what I read from it.

watch the DT50/POD HD videos and you'll see some of the back room guys... I've spoken to 1 in particular, and the things they can hear, and explain every part of your sound is just not something that us normal people (maybe with the exception od Gil or others like him who get deep into amp design) can hear, or even begin to understand.

If line 6 (who own the real amps they put into the POD) say to me "the same thing would happen in the real amp" then that's enough for me.  If you too have these real amps, then you can of course offer an opinion and disagree with them, but without that, saying that the very people who have studied these real amps for 2 years and put their tones into the POD HD's aren't being honest, is perhaps just frustration.

I do agree that it must be frustrating, but I know of quite a few users who have tested this (me included) and had no issues with some really high output pups.  Also just for you chap, I will do some more testing in the next few days to try and reproduce this on an HD400 and HD500 and see if I can create a recipe of when it happens, and how to avoid it.

Cheers

Rowbi



Re: Crossover type distortion
by Crusty_Old_Rocker on 2011-02-05 02:08:46

cGil wrote:

That's crossover distortion from a cold bias!  Also easy to fix.     Oh, and the Vox really aren't class A amps ya know, they're just cathode biased really warm at about 90% max plate dissipation, which means they're still operating in Class A/B!    Cathode biasing and a slight imbalance is how they get more even harmonics in the power tube's tone, but it can also get crossover distortion if the bias is set too cold.   Not sure about the Supro or the Gibson at the moment (still looking for schematics), but if there is more than one power tube involved, then I don't believe there is a single ended amp model available in the '16'.  Cathode biased? Sure.  But even single ended guitar amps are typically cathode biased below max dissipation or they'll cook the tubes!  Class A?  Nada one!  Sorry.

Gil...

Yeah, we all know that they are cathode biased and not truly open ended.  The term class A is thrown around on those cathode biased amps without proper regard for the true definition of class A.  Despite the lack of technical correctness of the terminology, people have come to (incorrectly) deem the cathode biased EL84 power amps as Class A.

Even the term crossover distortion is not technically precise either to describe the background distortion that occurs with the valved are in A/B cutoff.

Cheers,

Crusty



Re: Crossover type distortion
by Rowbi on 2011-02-05 03:12:17

Crusty_Old_Rocker wrote:

cGil wrote:

That's crossover distortion from a cold bias!  Also easy to fix.     Oh, and the Vox really aren't class A amps ya know, they're just cathode biased really warm at about 90% max plate dissipation, which means they're still operating in Class A/B!    Cathode biasing and a slight imbalance is how they get more even harmonics in the power tube's tone, but it can also get crossover distortion if the bias is set too cold.   Not sure about the Supro or the Gibson at the moment (still looking for schematics), but if there is more than one power tube involved, then I don't believe there is a single ended amp model available in the '16'.  Cathode biased? Sure.  But even single ended guitar amps are typically cathode biased below max dissipation or they'll cook the tubes!  Class A?  Nada one!  Sorry.

Gil...

Yeah, we all know that they are cathode biased and not truly open ended.  The term class A is thrown around on those cathode biased amps without proper regard for the true definition of class A.  Despite the lack of technical correctness of the terminology, people have come to (incorrectly) deem the cathode biased EL84 power amps as Class A.

Even the term crossover distortion is not technically precise either to describe the background distortion that occurs with the valved are in A/B cutoff.

Cheers,

Crusty

good call Crusty.

also it's worth mentioning to Gil and others that the back end guys at Line 6 will already know all this.  there's some really smart chaps who know their valve amps inside out as well as their PODs inside out... I think Millers statement was more along the lines as a broad statement to explain the situation for anyone to understand. Not knocking Gil or anyone else though.... just trying to point out that full statements that go into full technical detail arent always the best thing for most people.  So something more concise and to the point is often chosen for a good reason.



Re: Crossover type distortion
by cGil on 2011-02-05 07:53:49

  Point taken.     I'm mostly upset that the HD500 just didn't work out for me in its current incarnation.  Even so, the potential is there and I've still got my hopes up because I still want 'em to get this right.

Gil...



Re: Crossover type distortion
by timowens on 2011-02-05 07:54:47

A few of things don't seem to make sense (well a lot of things don't make sense but three things stand out). This thread is quite long so correct me if I missed something or have misunderstood something.

1) If lowering the pickups on a guitar helps and if lowering the volume on the guitar helps and lowering the pickup volume when using the variax helps, than why doesn't the input pad make any difference? Has anyone who doesn't have the problem tried to raise their pickups to duplicate the problem? What if you put some kind of stomp box in front of the HD and the stomp box has gain, can the HD handle a stomp box with gain or is it that sensitive to input levels? At any point did someone with the problem try different brand cables (with a different impendence)?

2) Has this phenomenon been observed in the XT or X3 or is it a new feature?

3) Why doesn't everyone have the problem? I know you're thinking because everyone has different ears, guitars, pickups and plays different and that's a good point. But for some reason this reminds of the USB Dropout, remember that, some had it and some didn't and it took a very long time for Line6 to find the problem and announce that there was a problem, before that, anyone who didn't have the problem pretty much believed that it did not exist, that was very frustrating for those of us who did have the problem, months and months of being told that we were doing something wrong or that our computers must have been screwed up.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by desso on 2011-02-05 08:26:34

YAY!!  Cool stuff coming!  I just hope it's not like waiting on new updates/versions to Android.  FOOOOORRRRRREEEEVER ...



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by AZGdude on 2011-02-05 09:30:46

So the official statement from Line 6 on the digital clipping, harsh noise issue is that it is not a bug, but a "feature" exclusive to the POD HD products.

For what its worth. In the past I have owned a Fender Twin Reverb, Vox AC30 and a few other amps not modeled. None of them ever exhibited this "noise feature" when strumming chords hard. Maybe there was something wrong with my tube amps?

Line6Miller wrote:

OK guys, I’ve reached out and spoken to our sound designers and our product developers. Here’s the official statement about this.

"This “clipping” as it has been referred to throughout this thread, is not digital clipping. What is being heard could be heard that way but it is in fact behavior that occurs in most of the Class AB amps we modeled in the POD IE: HiWatt, Fender, etc.

In a Class AB amplifier (in the class B-zone) one tube is in cutoff while the other tube is conducting.  The brain interprets the large sweeping signal as a loud, clean signal.  But, those one-sided distortions happening in the background can still be detected, and the sharper the knee; the more high harmonic content is generated.  This sounds roughly like a square wave mixed in low behind the clean signal.  It's more dirt, more fuzz, and really does happen in a genuine class AB tube amplifier.

In a Class A amplifier, the amp is supposed to never allow either tube to go into cutoff.  That'd be great, but all the amps we’ve encountered eventually cause cutoff if the input signal is loud enough.  This is one of the appealing aspects of Class A amplifiers, that background distortion isn't there, and therefore the audio should sound "cleaner"/"clearer"/"more pure" or whatever other hi-fi term you'd like to apply.

The Class A amps on the POD (Supro, Vox AC15, Vox AC30TB, Gibson EH-185) will not create that fuzz or dirt that these A/B amps will."

Choosing to use only Class A amp models will probably not be the ideal solution (for those that it is a problem for) right now but be patient. We’ve got some cool things coming down the pipe that I think you guys will really like.

Line6Miller



Re: Crossover type distortion
by amgamg on 2011-02-05 09:46:43
But for some reason this reminds of the USB Dropout, remember that, some had it and some didn't and it took a very long time for Line6 to find the problem and announce that there was a problem, before that, anyone who didn't have the problem pretty much believed that it did not exist


Seriously..if the situation is just like the X-3 L thingus....than why haven't all those who are convinced its a defective product ...sent theirs back for inspection as was offered . Frankly that's disappointing cause it would settle things and what more could Line 6 offer?



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by meambobbo on 2011-02-05 09:52:59

< angry rant >

Here's my thoughts - this explanation from Line 6 is something I'd expect from a politicianObviously not one person has thought of this distortion as a good thing, yet they're going to try to explain it away without doing any real legwork to fix the PROBLEM.  Yes, I said PROBLEM. When people ARE RETURNING YOUR PRODUCTS because of it, you should CONSIDER IT A PROBLEM.  This thread has gone on for a long time, and I haven't seen one person say that they liked the clipping they were getting, or were upset because they WEREN'T getting it.

If the distortion is occurring in the power amp sections of these amps, WHY THE HELL ARE YOU MODELING THE POWERAMPS PUSHED TO THE POINT WHERE THIS DISTORTION OCCURS?!?!!?!  You've totally given the user no control over this parameter, then you basically max it out to the point where we hear unwanted crap in the tone.  Then your response is "it's supposed to do that".  NO, YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO DO EXTENSIVE QA TESTING, FIGURE OUT THAT NO ONE WANTS THE CRAP YOU'VE PUT IN THE TONE, THEN RE-DESIGN THE PRODUCT.

But again, we see the bait and switch tactic of a politician - "vote for me and I'll fulfill all my extravagant promises...pay no attention to what i've actually done in office", only for Line 6 it's "Buy our flagship product, and we'll make it even better...and if you're heard it has problems, that's just nonsense...our official experts concluded that what some of the meager, unsophisticated customers (who probably don't know what they're doing) thought were problems were actually bonafide goodness, another testament to our awesomeness"

I don't really care what mystery features are in the pike, UNLESS THEY CAN FIX THIS ISSUE.  IMO, Line 6 should find a way to eliminate this PROBLEM, as this is the longest thread on the board, and everyone who's experiencing it considers it a PROBLEM.  For some, this is a make-or-break issue, and they have returned their units.  This PROBLEM should be priority number ONE.

The amp volume knob is clearly supposed to be for volume only and not affect tone at all, as per the Pilot's Handbook. This means that one cannot adjust the amount of poweramp gain (and eventually distortion) for any "full" amp model.  So you really need either a "Pre" model, a "Full model, and a "Medium" model, "Medium" being power amp emulation without pushing them to the point where they distort in various undesirable ways.  Or you need to allow the user to dial in the amount of power amp emulation they want.  Until one of these solutions is made available, I cannot recommend this product to anyone who would use it for mostly low-gain tones.

I'm going to come out and say it - your sound designers mustn't be the brightest lot.  Between them thinking that they improved the Uber and this...I know, let's not get started on that...they seem like academics, trying to accomplish things that are technically difficult but nobody cares about or even desires.

Finally, I really smell some BS in Line 6's answer.  I think it is digital clipping, because that's exactly what it sounds like - it's the same clipping I hear on the Pod, if I raise my pickups and send it clearly a way too hot signal, with all amps and effects turned off - a complete bypass.  I'm really curious to see if anyone can post a clip of the real Fender exhibiting this behavior.

...

And to anyone who says my or anyone else's guitar is "way too hot", no it's not.  If this problem can occur on a single coil bridge pickup, and if it's not present in the Pod's bypass or the blackface pre, why does it happen in blackface full.  Are you going to say it's something like the transubstantiation - my guitar transforms into a higher output level whenever I select blackface full on the Pod?!?!?!

Ok, i'm going back to using this thing solely for metal.  And I'm quite disappointed.  Line 6 better get on the ball.  The competition is considerably upping their game daily.  There are even free VST's that put some of Line 6's emulations to shame.

< / angry rant>



Re: Crossover type distortion
by Rowbi on 2011-02-05 10:04:42

timowens wrote:

A few of things don't seem to make sense (well a lot of things don't make sense but three things stand out). This thread is quite long so correct me if I missed something or have misunderstood something.

1) If lowering the pickups on a guitar helps and if lowering the volume on the guitar helps and lowering the pickup volume when using the variax helps, than why doesn't the input pad make any difference? Has anyone who doesn't have the problem tried to raise their pickups to duplicate the problem? What if you put some kind of stomp box in front of the HD and the stomp box has gain, can the HD handle a stomp box with gain or is it that sensitive to input levels? At any point did someone with the problem try different brand cables (with a different impendence)?

2) Has this phenomenon been observed in the XT or X3 or is it a new feature?

3) Why doesn't everyone have the problem? I know you're thinking because everyone has different ears, guitars, pickups and plays different and that's a good point. But for some reason this reminds of the USB Dropout, remember that, some had it and some didn't and it took a very long time for Line6 to find the problem and announce that there was a problem, before that, anyone who didn't have the problem pretty much believed that it did not exist, that was very frustrating for those of us who did have the problem, months and months of being told that we were doing something wrong or that our computers must have been screwed up.

I think part of the issue is the lack of firm recipes or assistance from the people with the issues.  Also other people have suggested tests that haven't been carried out.  like the fact that a SC pup outputs less than a humbucker, which in turn outputs less than a P90.  According to Weber's book, "All about vacuum tube guitar amplifiers" in the early days when all amps were clean, guitar companies only tested their amps with their own guitars.  so a fender guitar with a fender amp was gine.  same for gibson+gibson.  but play a gibby through a fender amp, and you got some distortion.  play a fender guitar through a gibson amp, and it sounded weak.... then you get Randall smith throwing in an extra preamp gain stage in a fender amp to create the first mesa boogie, and there you go... the birth of distorted guitar amps..... what's my point you may ask... well, did anyone with the issue, get a multimeter and check the output voltage of their pickups?  if someone said, here's a POD HD400 or HD500 patch, my output settings were studio direct, and line output level, and I was using this particular humbucker, which would output xxxmV with the hardest low E string being plucked, or maybe play a chord that you know displays the clipping in the POD, and then measure that chord as an output voltage... I'd test it.

looking back on the X3 thing, I think Line 6 (and some users including me) have learnt a lesson. But when Miller asked for someone to send one back, most were a little cagey about saying ok.  To be fair, some people had returned units, and I think 1 person wanted to do some more testing to be sure of the repro recipe before sending it in... but it did sort of read at the time like the users with the issue were unwilling to help, fot the most part.

I'm sure if someone has such an issue and they're sure it's a bug, and no one can repro it, then LIne 6 would be willing to take a look at one such unit, to avoid the X3 situation if nothing else.

I think the thing with this is that it's in the models of the amps.  as these are totally new models with 10 times more detail, that it's unlikely that the same would be in the XT or X3... but that's just my guess.

On your last point... I think the back room sound engineers at L6 have probably listened to the posted samples, and said.... hang on, that's caused by X, Y, and Z... after all those guys have been playing with these 16 amps and the POD HD platform for over 2 eyars now... so I'm certain they will know these amps better than most right now.

I'm sure the other experts, and other users, and even Line 6 would be with me (but I wouldn't want to presume 100%... I'm not MerlinML after all) when I say that if someone posts the following info, then I will happily test it out to see if I can reproduce something myself.  now the outcome of such a test, I'm not sure of.  but if it's reproducable, then we can at least say to L6, please can you run this through a test on the real amp, as well as a POD, and compare teh results.  I'm sure for theirs and your piece of mind, this would be possible.. but obviously I couldn't guarantee that.

anyway.  if someone does the following, I'll test it:

on a POD HD400 or 500 (that's what I have to hand) create a patch and post it here.  I hear that it only happens with full models.

Also tell me your output mode, your master volume level, your amp/line switch settings, etc, what physical output you're using and also your monitoring method.  I think studio direct would be best.

post as much info about the pickup as you can.  if it's an after market, or branded pup, then post the specs from SD or Dimarzios site.  I have a lot of guitar all with different high output pups, as well as a few low and medium output pups, so I'm sure I can find something similar. also measure the actual output of your pups.  use a multimeter set to 200mVAC for very low output pups.  I used mine set to 2VAC and when I strummed REALLY hard I got it to show approx 0.400, and I was using an evolution, which the specs state 404.  so I've got it set just right (I did fit it myself though).  note that Dimarzio tell you the output it should give as a mVAC figure.  if you're getting too much, lower the pup, not enough when you strum as hard as you can, then increasw the height.

Cheers

Rowbi



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by variableresults on 2011-02-05 10:13:36

meambobbo wrote:

< angry rant >

Here's my thoughts - this explanation from Line 6 is something I'd expect from a politicianObviously not one person has thought of this distortion as a good thing, yet they're going to try to explain it away without doing any real legwork to fix the PROBLEM.  Yes, I said PROBLEM. When people ARE RETURNING YOUR PRODUCTS because of it, you should CONSIDER IT A PROBLEM.  This thread has gone on for a long time, and I haven't seen one person say that they liked the clipping they were getting, or were upset because they WEREN'T getting it.

If the distortion is occurring in the power amp sections of these amps, WHY THE HELL ARE YOU MODELING THE POWERAMPS PUSHED TO THE POINT WHERE THIS DISTORTION OCCURS?!?!!?!  You've totally given the user no control over this parameter, then you basically max it out to the point where we hear unwanted crap in the tone.  Then your response is "it's supposed to do that".  NO, YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO DO EXTENSIVE QA TESTING, FIGURE OUT THAT NO ONE WANTS THE CRAP YOU'VE PUT IN THE TONE, THEN RE-DESIGN THE PRODUCT.

But again, we see the bait and switch tactic of a politician - "vote for me and I'll fulfill all my extravagant promises...pay no attention to what i've actually done in office", only for Line 6 it's "Buy our flagship product, and we'll make it even better...and if you're heard it has problems, that's just nonsense...our official experts concluded that what some of the meager, unsophisticated customers (who probably don't know what they're doing) thought were problems were actually bonafide goodness, another testament to our awesomeness"

I don't really care what mystery features are in the pike, UNLESS THEY CAN FIX THIS ISSUE.  IMO, Line 6 should find a way to eliminate this PROBLEM, as this is the longest thread on the board, and everyone who's experiencing it considers it a PROBLEM.  For some, this is a make-or-break issue, and they have returned their units.  This PROBLEM should be priority number ONE.

The amp volume knob is clearly supposed to be for volume only and not affect tone at all, as per the Pilot's Handbook. This means that one cannot adjust the amount of poweramp gain (and eventually distortion) for any "full" amp model.  So you really need either a "Pre" model, a "Full model, and a "Medium" model, "Medium" being power amp emulation without pushing them to the point where they distort in various undesirable ways.  Or you need to allow the user to dial in the amount of power amp emulation they want.  Until one of these solutions is made available, I cannot recommend this product to anyone who would use it for mostly low-gain tones.

I'm going to come out and say it - your sound designers mustn't be the brightest lot.  Between them thinking that they improved the Uber and this...I know, let's not get started on that...they seem like academics, trying to accomplish things that are technically difficult but nobody cares about or even desires.

Finally, I really smell some BS in Line 6's answer.  I think it is digital clipping, because that's exactly what it sounds like - it's the same clipping I hear on the Pod, if I raise my pickups and send it clearly a way too hot signal, with all amps and effects turned off - a complete bypass.  I'm really curious to see if anyone can post a clip of the real Fender exhibiting this behavior.

...

And to anyone who says my or anyone else's guitar is "way too hot", no it's not.  If this problem can occur on a single coil bridge pickup, and if it's not present in the Pod's bypass or the blackface pre, why does it happen in blackface full.  Are you going to say it's something like the transubstantiation - my guitar transforms into a higher output level whenever I select blackface full on the Pod?!?!?!

Ok, i'm going back to using this thing solely for metal.  And I'm quite disappointed.  Line 6 better get on the ball.  The competition is considerably upping their game daily.  There are even free VST's that put some of Line 6's emulations to shame.

< / angry rant>

+100000000000

Please, PLEASE Line 6, if you really want to convince us this is true, take any of the actual amplifiers you modeled and record a clip of them making the same digital distortion sound that we're hearing in the full amp models. Because I gotta tell you:  I've played through a Hiwatt DR103 cranked up (never something to be done lightly, or without headphones folks), and I didn't hear a single grain of the crackle I hear if I bang on the strings with the POD HD version of this amp.  I've been playing through tube amps for the past fifteen years, and not once have I heard any of them make a digital clipping noise like I've heard from the POD HD.  I haven't chimed in on this thread because I've been using medium-to-high gain tones on my HD, but after going through the cleaner patches I've made, I feel the need to chime in now.  Heck, even my Guytron GT100, which is a slaved 18watt Class AB EL84 power section dumped into a 100watt EL34 power section doesn't make these sounds when set clean.  And that 18watt power section is cathode biased and running so hot that I have to swap tubes every three to six months.

"Warts and all" is just fine, but have your sound designers considered that maybe some "warts" are going to reduce sales?  I have to agree with meambobbo here; your sound designers need to get their ears checked if they think these "features" are what gigging musicians want.  It's pretty clear that Line6 isn't aiming at the teenage metal-heads who won't hear this stuff based on the amp selection you've given us.

I realize you're just the messenger here, Miller, and I intend no offence, but I think we would all appreciate it if you would show a little spine when your sound designers feed you a plate of BS.  You yourself admitted that you hear what we're talking about; can you really accept that this is what guitar players would want?  Do you think we would still be playing tube amps if they made sounds like the ones in the clips presented here?



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by lowyaw on 2011-02-05 10:14:07

it's been three days since i've got my HD500, and I noticed the quasi-digital distortion from the first seconf I strummed a big open chord through the black face model *Fender. Whatever it is, a glitch, a program error, a real amp behavior, it's bad. I understand, that at some point there are people who don't want the mode l to be THAT true, and at some other point, there will be someone who will blame line 6 for not being precise enough in the modelling process.

But this sound is wrong.

Dear Line 6 guys, we want to use your product. i am just a regular player and I a) can't afford to send gear back and forth (to address amgamg's post) b) have to use it for gigs Just edit this obscenity out in the future and give us joy with the next forseeable firmware update.

Thanks



Re: Crossover type distortion
by timowens on 2011-02-05 10:16:08

amgamg wrote:

But for some reason this reminds of the USB Dropout, remember that, some had it and some didn't and it took a very long time for Line6 to find the problem and announce that there was a problem, before that, anyone who didn't have the problem pretty much believed that it did not exist


Seriously..if the situation is just like the X-3 L thingus....than why haven't all those who are convinced its a defective product ...sent theirs back for inspection as was offered . Frankly that's disappointing cause it would settle things and what more could Line 6 offer?

I guess you'd have to ask all the people who said they had a problem why they didn't send their units in for testing. Let me ask you personally, do you think this is a new feature, do you think it is not an issue at all and all those people were imagining it, what is your point?



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by lowyaw on 2011-02-05 10:29:36

here's the sample

update: it's a bone stock 99 Gibson LP Studio, with pickups somewhat lowered for cleaner sound

monitored through AKG K270 headphones

pad off



Re: Crossover type distortion
by amgamg on 2011-02-05 10:31:17
I guess you'd have to ask all the people who said they had a problem why they didn't send their units in for testing. Let me ask you personally, do you think this is a new feature, do you think it is not an issue at all and all those people were imagining it, what is your point?


I think to some degree or another hearing an amp grind is a feature. Listening to mine..I'm quite satisfied. Here's the thing...you get a year warranty with the unit. So not to take advantage of the  warranty for those who are sure they have an issue is absurd. To make it seem like those people are getting hosed is just wrong. If I were convinced mine was broke I wouldn't make excuses not to get it fixed...I'd get mine fixed. Line 6 said thru Miller..send them back..so....does Miller need to go house to house?



Re: Crossover type distortion
by timowens on 2011-02-05 10:40:53

Rowbi wrote:

I think part of the issue is the lack of firm recipes or assistance from the people with the issues... (the rest deleted to save digital trees)

Cheers

Rowbi

Whenever you ask a common customer to measure the actual output of their guitar you are probably exceeding the technical expertise of the common user. You can't simply put a multimeter on the output of your guitar and get an accurate measurement, what is the impedance of your meter, is it 'True RMS', is it reading the peak voltage at all frequencies, are you placing the meter in a bridged or terminated test environment, etc. How many people have access to an oscilloscope? These are things that the manufacturer should handle, not the customer. Sometimes a customer only knows that there is a problem, you can't expect them to provide a technical report on the issue.



Re: Crossover type distortion
by timowens on 2011-02-05 10:45:45

amgamg wrote:

I guess you'd have to ask all the people who said they had a problem why they didn't send their units in for testing. Let me ask you personally, do you think this is a new feature, do you think it is not an issue at all and all those people were imagining it, what is your point?


I think to some degree or another hearing an amp grind is a feature. Listening to mine..I'm quite satisfied. Here's the thing...you get a year warranty with the unit. So not to take advantage of the  warranty for those who are sure they have an issue is absurd. To make it seem like those people are getting hosed is just wrong. If I were convinced mine was broke I wouldn't make excuses not to get it fixed...I'd get mine fixed. Line 6 said thru Miller..send them back..so....does Miller need to go house to house?

Like I said, you'd have to ask them, I can't answer for them and niether can you. All you can do is imply that they were making it all up, and that's what it sounds like you are doing.



Re: Crossover type distortion
by FrozenOzone on 2011-02-05 10:54:19

I think there is a resolution and both parties will be satisfied.

Line 6 - Have the user bring the unit back to the store they bought it from and have it exchanged.  Have the returned unit tagged and sent back to Line 6.  That way the dealer can send it back to line 6 on their dime not the user.

This way the user isn't out $500 and a HD500 at the same time with no actual time frame to get it back.  At least the user will still have an HD500 from the exchange.

Just a suggestion.



Re: Crossover type distortion
by amgamg on 2011-02-05 10:55:21

That's not what I'm doing at all. Read what I posted. My point is clear...if your HD is broke...let Line 6 fix it. That simple! I cant tell who is or isn't doing what or who's HD isnt a good one....send it in and let the cards fall where they will. Oh and not to disappoint you Tim...yeah if all you do is whine..and don't even try to help yourself...that makes such a person as at fault as the originator of the problem. Make no mistake..thats a nice way of saying..."Put Up Or Shut Up"!



Re: Crossover type distortion
by silverhead on 2011-02-05 11:01:02

amgamg - let's keep it civil. Surely we can disagree without getting personal.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by jeff5x0 on 2011-02-05 11:07:20

While I wouldnt be as quite direct as meambobo, I certainly agree with his post. To my ears it IS clipping. I know what digital clipping sounds like and this was it. Why not send the unit back? To be honest several reasons. After buying 1 unit, returning it and having the same results with the second unit, I would imagine the replacement who have had the same problems and Id be sending units back and forth to Line 6. Secondly I did not want to risk losing the money on it with GC's 30 day policy, espescially if it wasnt going to get repaired anytime soon. Thirdly, I am currently waiting on a different product to be repaired (not Line 6) and its been 3 months. Not saying it would take Line 6 that long, but what if it did. I just plopped down 550 bucks for a new toy that I cant play with. And the biggest factor for me was plugging my guitar into another modeler (different brand) setting it to a Fender amp and not get any clipping. No matter how hard I strummed.

I thought for a long time it was just user error. It cant be. Too many people have this. And it is frustrating when others make you feel like youre making the problem up. The Pod should respond without clipping no matter what guitar is hooked into it. I dont have a lot of time or patience to deal with a product that is not working as it should. I know Blue, meambobo, and one other guy have offered to send in their unit and there was NO response to their offer (that I know of.....could have pm'd maybe). This is a real problem. As stated, I enjoyed the layout and the heavier amp sims on the Pod. If this issue gets resolved, Id be happy to look at the Pod again. But I spoke my disatifaction by returning the unit as others have. This should be top priority for Line 6. And it should be handled very quickly. By the way Miller, can you remove the reigstration for my Pod? Or is there a way I can do it? Thanks!



Re: Crossover type distortion
by amgamg on 2011-02-05 11:07:34
amgamg - let's keep it civil. Surely we can disagree without getting personal.


Sure..but I'm not going to sit back and have someone represent me as having said something I never said. I never said anyone was making anything up about what thier HD was doing.



Re: Crossover type distortion
by jeff5x0 on 2011-02-05 11:10:26

Thats a great idea in theory. Only problem is, in my case I got another faulty unit when I returned the first one. But youre right there should be a way to get one of these returns back to Line 6.



Re: Crossover type distortion
by dftpunk on 2011-02-05 11:10:33

.let Line 6 fix it. That simple!

If that was so simple.. Really I'd like to send my unit to line6 with myself additionally to point them face 2 face where's the problem. But I live in Europe. And waiting my unit back for undefined period is really not cool and then they send it back to me with explanation "it is the feature". Also I need the unit... If they send me another unit to play I will send mine.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by Bluestone on 2011-02-05 11:11:17

Thank you Sir Miller....


OM



Re: Crossover type distortion
by amgamg on 2011-02-05 11:13:23

You dont know what would happen..you didnt do it



Re: Crossover type distortion
by timowens on 2011-02-05 11:15:24

amgamg wrote:

amgamg - let's keep it civil. Surely we can disagree without getting personal.


Sure..but I'm not going to sit back and have someone represent me as having said something I never said. I never said anyone was making anything up about what thier HD was doing.

When you said "Put up or shut up" you pretty much said that they can't back up their claims, how else is this to be taken? You are saying that they made false claims.



Re: Crossover type distortion
by timowens on 2011-02-05 11:20:48

dftpunk wrote:

.let Line 6 fix it. That simple!

If that was so simple.. Really I'd like to send my unit to line6 with myself additionally to point them face 2 face where's the problem. But I live in Europe. And waiting my unit back for undefined period is really not cool and then they send it back to me with explanation "it is the feature". Also I need the unit... If they send me another unit to play I will send mine.

Lets take that a step furthur, Line6 'officially' just said that it is NOT broken, there is no problem. So what is the point in sending it back for repair? You can't fix something that isn't broken, can you?



Re: Crossover type distortion
by amgamg on 2011-02-05 11:21:31

This is what you said.

All you can do is imply that they were making it all up, and that's what it sounds like you are doing.

I never said that anyone has to prove anything...I said that they need to take the responsibility to take the steps to get what may very well be owed them under the terms of the warranty. You want to make more of what I said than that...well..your wrong!



Re: Crossover type distortion
by timowens on 2011-02-05 11:25:07

amgamg wrote:

This is what you said.

All you can do is imply that they were making it all up, and that's what it sounds like you are doing.

I never said that anyone has to prove anything...I said that they need to take the responsibility to take the steps to get what may very well be owed them under the terms of the warranty. You want to make more of what I said than that...well..your wrong!

"Put up or shut up", are those not your words?



Re: Crossover type distortion
by phil_m on 2011-02-05 11:28:30

1.  I would say as far to why the pad might not change the behavior, I think there's a couple things to consider.  The pad switch lowers the overall RMS value of the incoming signal, and I suspect it's in a very linear fashion across the whole frequency spectrum.  Meaning if it's a 6dB decrease at 600Hz, it's a 6dB decrease at 2000 as well.  Lowering the pickups, I suspect, is not nearly as linear.  I don't know what the frequency response curve would like, but it may be that lowering pickups does not decrease the gain at the frequencies that are most problematic enough to remedy the situation.  To me it appears that it's probably an issue of certain mid-range frequencies more than anything.

2.  Well, there were similar things in the XT/X3 line.  The ghost notes and the fizz issue come to mind.  I remember people who had the same sorts of reaction to those issues as to this, i.e., "if Line 6 doesn't fix this they're stupid, and they have no idea what they're doing!"

3.  It very much seems that people with certain guitars, playing styles, etc. are more likely to have the problem than others.  I probably would not have noticed it since I play mostly single coils.  I think the reason Line 6 didn't announce it was a problem is because, as Line6Miller said, they simply don't see it as a problem.  It a feature inherent in the modeled amps, and it is the virtual model of the amp as well.



Re: Crossover type distortion
by amgamg on 2011-02-05 11:38:35
"Put up or shut up", are those not your words?

Yep..and heres those words in context

 That's not what I'm doing at all. Read what I posted. My point is clear...if your HD is broke...let Line 6 fix it. That simple! I cant tell who is or isn't doing what or who's HD isnt a good one....send it in and let the cards fall where they will. Oh and not to disappoint you Tim...yeah if all you do is whine..and don't even try to help yourself...that makes such a person as at fault as the originator of the problem. Make no mistake..thats a nice way of saying..."Put Up Or Shut Up"!


Re: Crossover type distortion
by meambobbo on 2011-02-05 11:41:49

I offered to send my Pod in with no response over several days.  I can't return my Pod to vendor, and even if I could those who had the problem and did return it still had the problem, so I don't think it would make a difference.  The official statement from Line 6 seems to indicate this clipping is a universal "feature", not a manufacturing bug on some units.  The difference in user's experiences likely lies in their guitar's max output level, which can be due to differences in pickups, pickup heights, wiring, style of play, pick hardness, etc.

The thing that rubs me is 3-fold.

1) I doubt a real blackface would demonstrate a similar sounding distortion.  If so, I'd like to hear an audio clip.  I would agree that the real Fender would indeed distort, if you used passive pickups with high output, set them close to the strings, and picked extremely hard, but I'm EXTREMELY skeptical that the Fender's distortion would sound like the Pod's distortion, considering that it sounds similar to when you purposefully distort the Pod's guitar input - ie a digital distortion.  But let me be clear - even after drastically lowering a pickup, so that there's no distortion on setting the Pod with no amps/effects and the blackface pre, it's still there on the blackface full, but not if I turn down the guitar's volume knob.  I suspect their software is trying to drive a component too hard, rather than the software actually purposefully creating the distortion.  THIS CAN BE FIXED.

2) You cannot adjust the amount of power amp gain being used to make the "full" models.  The volume knob is specifically stated to be tone-transparent, not a variable emulation of power amp gain.  THIS CAN BE FIXED.  This is the problem - if the blackface pre doesn't clip, then one should also be able to dial out the power amp distortion, if indeed the distortion is an intentional design feature, not a hardware issue.

3) If everyone thinks they know so much about this issue, including Line 6 support and experts, as well as about how guitars are supposed to be set up, why not post any actual data? IE - if the sound designers actually tested this issue, replicated the clipping, studied it and their software design, as well as actual amp design...why don't they post some clips, and some pickup output levels, and find the precise threshold where the clipping becomes noticeable.  And they could release similar notes about what the maximum level their input converters can handle.  and a good way to measure such levels.  I'd love to get my gear "in spec" (the Pod HD is my main rig) but what are they?  Again, THIS CAN BE FIXED.

So I guess my main issue is all the politician speak going on.  If you aren't getting this distortion, maybe you aren't as qualified as you think on the issue.  Unless someone wants to post specs for "normal" guitar output levels and the specs for the Pod's guitar input.  That'd be great.

I guess it just seems like everyone is avoiding trying to DO ANYTHING HELPFUL.



Re: Crossover type distortion
by Rowbi on 2011-02-05 11:59:17

timowens wrote:

Rowbi wrote:

I think part of the issue is the lack of firm recipes or assistance from the people with the issues... (the rest deleted to save digital trees)

Cheers

Rowbi

Whenever you ask a common customer to measure the actual output of their guitar you are probably exceeding the technical expertise of the common user. You can't simply put a multimeter on the output of your guitar and get an accurate measurement, what is the impedance of your meter, is it 'True RMS', is it reading the peak voltage at all frequencies, are you placing the meter in a bridged or terminated test environment, etc. How many people have access to an oscilloscope? These are things that the manufacturer should handle, not the customer. Sometimes a customer only knows that there is a problem, you can't expect them to provide a technical report on the issue.

you are correct, it's not a perfect way to measure it, but it should be close enough for what we're testing.  lots of people have DMM's, and it's a simple test.  most cheaper DMMs read in RMS, and have a very high impedance so that measurements are often better than 0.5% accuracy.

at the end of the day, I could just moan about it, or I could say, "sorry guys, I don't have the issue, and line 6 say it's not a bug... so like it or lump it" BUT that's not what I'm doing.  I#m trying to help as best I can.  I personally trust what Line 6 says, but I can understand why some people are annoyed at this...

But, just to clarify, are you having this problem with your POD HD Tim??



Re: Crossover type distortion
by timowens on 2011-02-05 11:59:21

Well, since Line6 officially stated that it is not a problem, but rather, it is a feature (and I paraphrase), there isn't much point in trying to take advantage of the warranty now is there. As far as being whiner, you bet I am, I whined about the USB dropout, I endured months and months of people like you telling me that it was my own fault because I couldn't prove it to them, I must be doing something wrong because YOU do not have the problem. Even after Line6 repaired my USB dropout problem under the test program (before they officially announce the fix) I tried to tell the FanBoy's that it was in fact a real problem and they dismissed me as a nut case and a whiner. If you want to get into details I can provide you with the actual dates, but I don't think you want me to embarrass your beloved Line6 with the fact that they knew there was a problem for a very long time before they actually decided to offer to fix all of those defective units. Your turn I



Re: Crossover type distortion
by amgamg on 2011-02-05 12:00:07

Meambobbo...or anyone else for that matter ...call um up. I have in the past called Line 6. If I had a problem that's what I'd do. You may be right...who knows. I just think that if your not getting what you need from the website than calling would make sense. When I read what Miller posted I knew what was coming next. People often say that the squeaky wheel gets the oil. I believe you have to grab at the brass ring if your ever going to get a hold of it. If you or others think your HD's are defective then you have to get a hold of Line 6. Going round and round about what this one said..means what..and flipping it everyway till Sunday isn't productive. In the end..maybe this isn't the best MFX for you. Honestly I've heard some crackling and noise in clips that made me think...WTF! Mostly I hear what might be the best Line6 can do at the moment in as much as amp grind goes. Many clips don't sound that bad IMO. The crackling noisy ones make me take notice...but that could be anything..even that particular HD. Anyway....I'm not gonna be the reason this one gets locked if it does...carry on ...hope you find what you need in your HD.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by MickSlick on 2011-02-05 12:07:02

This is worth yet another bump, thank you Meambobbo for crafting a well thought out and completely accurate take on this situation.   I just can't believe Line 6 is just ignoring this at this point.  Yes they are ignoring it if the response is, "well that's the way it's supposed to be", that's like saying that nasty taste in our premier dish tonight is turning off a bunch of guests and they don't want to eat it, so be it,  it's their problem, oh well. 

Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models

< angry rant >

Here's my thoughts - this explanation from Line 6 is something I'd expect from a politicianObviously not one person has thought of this distortion as a good thing, yet they're going to try to explain it away without doing any real legwork to fix the PROBLEM.  Yes, I said PROBLEM. When people ARE RETURNING YOUR PRODUCTS because of it, you should CONSIDER IT A PROBLEM.  This thread has gone on for a long time, and I haven't seen one person say that they liked the clipping they were getting, or were upset because they WEREN'T getting it.

If the distortion is occurring in the power amp sections of these amps, WHY THE HELL ARE YOU MODELING THE POWERAMPS PUSHED TO THE POINT WHERE THIS DISTORTION OCCURS?!?!!?!  You've totally given the user no control over this parameter, then you basically max it out to the point where we hear unwanted crap in the tone.  Then your response is "it's supposed to do that".  NO, YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO DO EXTENSIVE QA TESTING, FIGURE OUT THAT NO ONE WANTS THE CRAP YOU'VE PUT IN THE TONE, THEN RE-DESIGN THE PRODUCT.

But again, we see the bait and switch tactic of a politician - "vote for me and I'll fulfill all my extravagant promises...pay no attention to what i've actually done in office", only for Line 6 it's "Buy our flagship product, and we'll make it even better...and if you're heard it has problems, that's just nonsense...our official experts concluded that what some of the meager, unsophisticated customers (who probably don't know what they're doing) thought were problems were actually bonafide goodness, another testament to our awesomeness"

I don't really care what mystery features are in the pike, UNLESS THEY CAN FIX THIS ISSUE.  IMO, Line 6 should find a way to eliminate this PROBLEM, as this is the longest thread on the board, and everyone who's experiencing it considers it a PROBLEM.  For some, this is a make-or-break issue, and they have returned their units.  This PROBLEM should be priority number ONE.

The amp volume knob is clearly supposed to be for volume only and not affect tone at all, as per the Pilot's Handbook. This means that one cannot adjust the amount of poweramp gain (and eventually distortion) for any "full" amp model.  So you really need either a "Pre" model, a "Full model, and a "Medium" model, "Medium" being power amp emulation without pushing them to the point where they distort in various undesirable ways.  Or you need to allow the user to dial in the amount of power amp emulation they want.  Until one of these solutions is made available, I cannot recommend this product to anyone who would use it for mostly low-gain tones.

I'm going to come out and say it - your sound designers mustn't be the brightest lot.  Between them thinking that they improved the Uber and this...I know, let's not get started on that...they seem like academics, trying to accomplish things that are technically difficult but nobody cares about or even desires.

Finally, I really smell some BS in Line 6's answer.  I think it is digital clipping, because that's exactly what it sounds like - it's the same clipping I hear on the Pod, if I raise my pickups and send it clearly a way too hot signal, with all amps and effects turned off - a complete bypass.  I'm really curious to see if anyone can post a clip of the real Fender exhibiting this behavior.

...

And to anyone who says my or anyone else's guitar is "way too hot", no it's not.  If this problem can occur on a single coil bridge pickup, and if it's not present in the Pod's bypass or the blackface pre, why does it happen in blackface full.  Are you going to say it's something like the transubstantiation - my guitar transforms into a higher output level whenever I select blackface full on the Pod?!?!?!

Ok, i'm going back to using this thing solely for metal.  And I'm quite disappointed.  Line 6 better get on the ball.  The competition is considerably upping their game daily.  There are even free VST's that put some of Line 6's emulations to shame.

< / angry rant>



Re: Crossover type distortion
by Rowbi on 2011-02-05 12:07:16

meambobbo wrote:

I offered to send my Pod in with no response over several days.  I can't return my Pod to vendor, and even if I could those who had the problem and did return it still had the problem, so I don't think it would make a difference.  The official statement from Line 6 seems to indicate this clipping is a universal "feature", not a manufacturing bug on some units.  The difference in user's experiences likely lies in their guitar's max output level, which can be due to differences in pickups, pickup heights, wiring, style of play, pick hardness, etc.

The thing that rubs me is 3-fold.

1) I doubt a real blackface would demonstrate a similar sounding distortion.  If so, I'd like to hear an audio clip.  I would agree that the real Fender would indeed distort, if you used passive pickups with high output, set them close to the strings, and picked extremely hard, but I'm EXTREMELY skeptical that the Fender's distortion would sound like the Pod's distortion, considering that it sounds similar to when you purposefully distort the Pod's guitar input - ie a digital distortion.  But let me be clear - even after drastically lowering a pickup, so that there's no distortion on setting the Pod with no amps/effects and the blackface pre, it's still there on the blackface full, but not if I turn down the guitar's volume knob.  I suspect their software is trying to drive a component too hard, rather than the software actually purposefully creating the distortion.  THIS CAN BE FIXED.

2) You cannot adjust the amount of power amp gain being used to make the "full" models.  The volume knob is specifically stated to be tone-transparent, not a variable emulation of power amp gain.  THIS CAN BE FIXED.  This is the problem - if the blackface pre doesn't clip, then one should also be able to dial out the power amp distortion, if indeed the distortion is an intentional design feature, not a hardware issue.

3) If everyone thinks they know so much about this issue, including Line 6 support and experts, as well as about how guitars are supposed to be set up, why not post any actual data? IE - if the sound designers actually tested this issue, replicated the clipping, studied it and their software design, as well as actual amp design...why don't they post some clips, and some pickup output levels, and find the precise threshold where the clipping becomes noticeable.  And they could release similar notes about what the maximum level their input converters can handle.  and a good way to measure such levels.  I'd love to get my gear "in spec" (the Pod HD is my main rig) but what are they?  Again, THIS CAN BE FIXED.

So I guess my main issue is all the politician speak going on.  If you aren't getting this distortion, maybe you aren't as qualified as you think on the issue.  Unless someone wants to post specs for "normal" guitar output levels and the specs for the Pod's guitar input.  That'd be great.

I guess it just seems like everyone is avoiding trying to DO ANYTHING HELPFUL.

<sarcasm mode>
maybe all your fixes will come in the cool things Miller hinted about.... maybe the cool things are that the real amps will pop out of the POD HD and into your house.  then you can prove to us all that Line 6 is wrong, and that you were correct to doubt a Blackface would have this distortion....

Or... perhaps we could ask Line 6 if their real BF does this.... oh wait, we did that already

</sarcasm mode>



Re: Crossover type distortion
by timowens on 2011-02-05 12:11:58

Rowbi wrote:

But, just to clarify, are you having this problem with your POD HD Tim??

Nice try, you know I don't own an HD and so does everyone else, I have said that many times on this forum, and I've clearly stated why I have not invested in one. But really, that has nothing to do with the question at hand, now does it? I paid my dues to Line6, I am not a troll, should I post my sales reciept to prove I have the right to post here? Are you saying I have an agenda? Don't beat around the bush, if you have a problem with me just say so.



Re: Crossover type distortion
by amgamg on 2011-02-05 12:13:18

timowens wrote:

Well, since Line6 officially stated that it is not a problem, but rather, it is a feature (and I paraphrase), there isn't much point in trying to take advantage of the warranty now is there. As far as being whiner, you bet I am, I whined about the USB dropout, I endured months and months of people like you telling me that it was my own fault because I couldn't prove it to them, I must be doing something wrong because YOU do not have the problem. Even after Line6 repaired my USB dropout problem under the test program (before they officially announce the fix) I tried to tell the FanBoy's that it was in fact a real problem and they dismissed me as a nut case and a whiner. If you want to get into details I can provide you with the actual dates, but I don't think you want me to embarrass your beloved Line6 with the fact that they knew there was a problem for a very long time before they actually decided to offer to fix all of those defective units. Your turn I

Tim I'm sorry you feel so poorly about all this. Yes I am aware of all the X-3 L stuff and even your situation. I 've been lurking on the boards and posting on occasion for years now. Your anger regarding the X-3L betrays you. My point is your putting meaning in various statements that aren't necessarily true. Line 6 will stand behind their product..I know this to be true. What would really be sad is if people let their warranty run out just spinning their wheels like this..if in fact they are right. I saw no post that said ...don't call Line 6 with your concerns. Look..ya wanna be angry with me..fine. Wanna be friendly...thats fine to. If you take the emotion out of it..I'm sure you can see what I'm talking about. Sorry if I upset you..wasn't what I was after.



Re: Crossover type distortion
by Rowbi on 2011-02-05 12:25:36

timowens wrote:

Rowbi wrote:

But, just to clarify, are you having this problem with your POD HD Tim??

Nice try, you know I don't own an HD and so does everyone else, I have said that many times on this forum, and I've clearly stated why I have not invested in one. But really, that has nothing to do with the question at hand, now does it? I paid my dues to Line6, I am not a troll, should I post my sales reciept to prove I have the right to post here? Are you saying I have an agenda? Don't beat around the bush, if you have a problem with me just say so.

no beating about the bush needed.  I don't think you have an agenda, nor do I have a problem with you.  But I do think actually experiencing (or not as the case may be) this issue is important before drawing an opinion.

Sure anyone can have an opinion on anything they like, but as people keep suggesting that line 6 haven't even bothered to test this, and they're just saying it's a feature to get out of it... yet they have no idea what Line 6 has or hasn't done to test this... not saying you are one of those people, but a credible opinion should be based on fact or experience of something.

I've got no beef with you as a person though or generally on this forum... my remark about your POD HD was simply meant as a little joke, but perhaps it was over the line.

Peace

Rowbi



Re: Crossover type distortion
by Nick_Mattocks on 2011-02-05 12:26:06

OK.  I've been following this thread all the way through.   To me from reading the whole thread, I personally believe there is more than one phenomenon at play here. I don't believe everyone is necessarily experiencing exactly the same issue.  The lack of consistent evidence, consistent testing regimes and undoubted variables at play here makes it impossible in every case to attribute whatever it is individual users are experiencing to the same thing.  I do believe users are hearing something certainly.  I believe that some issues are probably due to certain type of pickups and how the guitars themselves are set up.  I believe that the majority of users are hearing the modelled amps as intended and for the reasons explained in Line6Miller's official statement.  I believe that it is possible that a small number of users may have a fault with their units.  Finally, I believe it is entirely possible that some users are not setting their PODs up optimally.

Line6Miller has already offered to check out units if users are willing to send them back to Line 6 for testingm and whilst some users were indeed willing for this to happen, not many have actually come forward it would seem.  Line 6's in house units don't seem to be exhibiting the issues being talked about in this thread.  Line6Miller has gone to some lengths to determine as best he can that users are experiencing the exact same phenomenon, and from some of the clips submitted in this thread, it is clear that not all the symptoms are due to the exact same cause.

As Tim has highlighted, the majority of users are ordinary guitar players who just want to play guitar through their POD and to get a good sound.  That being the case, it is highly unlikely in my opinion that the testing procedures used are the same in every case.  In order to get a consistent picture, it is important that tests and results are based on the same procedures.

So without being dismissive of anyone's experiences and concerns here in any way, I believe that there are possibly a number of different things going on here and that there is some confusion between what some users are experiencing and what others are experiencing with the end result that some users are possibly attributing the way their POD sounds to something that isn't the actual cause for them, by possibly assuming that they must have the same problem that another user has.

It is therefore important to try and ensure that any testing and comparison is carried out as uniformly as possible and to the same criteria and recipes.  If Line 6's offer to check over any units is still open, then as the designers, manufacturers and marketers of the products they are undoubtedly best placed to check things out in a consistent way - far more than most of us are, and I would recommend that anyone who is still concerned that their unit might be faulty should take up the offer of getting it checked out properly.

I am very happy to test any HD500 patches on the units I have at my disposal to the best of my ability and opinion in as an objective way as possible, exactly as Rowbi has suggested using the criteria he has outlined.  I am personally happy that the units I have access to (my own and a friend's HD500) sound exactly as I would expect them to without unwanted input clipping or unnatural clipping from whatever cause.  I can't say either way whether in my opinion person A's unit is displaying a problem where person B's unit isn't as I don't have direct access to anyone else's units except the two I have available to me, but I can certainly pitch in and try and narrow down the causes of the way your HD500 sounds for some of you as best I can without actually having your physical units here.

Just remember that here are undoubtedly some elements of subjectivity at play here too and that it may be impossible for everyone to agree that what someone regards as a problem is also a problem to someone else..

Finally, please don't forget Line6Miller's final comment in his statement:

Line6Miller wrote:

We’ve got some cool things coming down the pipe that I think you guys will really like.

Line6Miller

Regards

Nick.



Re: Crossover type distortion
by timowens on 2011-02-05 12:26:37

amgamg wrote:

timowens wrote:

Well, since Line6 officially stated that it is not a problem, but rather, it is a feature (and I paraphrase), there isn't much point in trying to take advantage of the warranty now is there. As far as being whiner, you bet I am, I whined about the USB dropout, I endured months and months of people like you telling me that it was my own fault because I couldn't prove it to them, I must be doing something wrong because YOU do not have the problem. Even after Line6 repaired my USB dropout problem under the test program (before they officially announce the fix) I tried to tell the FanBoy's that it was in fact a real problem and they dismissed me as a nut case and a whiner. If you want to get into details I can provide you with the actual dates, but I don't think you want me to embarrass your beloved Line6 with the fact that they knew there was a problem for a very long time before they actually decided to offer to fix all of those defective units. Your turn I

Tim I'm sorry you feel so poorly about all this. Yes I am aware of all the X-3 L stuff and even your situation. I 've been lurking on the boards and posting on occasion for years now. Your anger regarding the X-3L betrays you. My point is your putting meaning in various statements that aren't necessarily true. Line 6 will stand behind their product..I know this to be true. What would really be sad is if people let their warranty run out just spinning their wheels like this..if in fact they are right. I saw no post that said ...don't call Line 6 with your concerns. Look..ya wanna be angry with me..fine. Wanna be friendly...thats fine to. If you take the emotion out of it..I'm sure you can see what I'm talking about. Sorry if I upset you..wasn't what I was after.

LOL, I'm not angry, now you are twisting my words. You take all of this way too seriously, why else would you go out of your way to defend Line6 against someone like me when Line6 doesn't even come to their own defense? As Rowbi so strategically pointed out, I don't even own an HD so I have no vested interest. But, as you said, I once did have a vested interest whenever I was struggling with the bug laden lemon known as the X3L, so I can sympathize with the new HD owners who are in fact going through the same thing I did with the X3L.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by Rowbi on 2011-02-05 12:30:22

lowyaw wrote:

here's the sample

update: it's a bone stock 99 Gibson LP Studio, with pickups somewhat lowered for cleaner sound

monitored through AKG K270 headphones

pad off

could anyone else get that pod hd500 tone file to open correctly?  i could open it, but it contained no amp model??



Re: Crossover type distortion
by timowens on 2011-02-05 12:42:42

Rowbi wrote:

... no beating about the bush needed.  I don't think you have an agenda, nor do I have a problem with you.  But I do think actually experiencing (or not as the case may be) this issue is important before drawing an opinion.

Sure anyone can have an opinion on anything they like, but as people keep suggesting that line 6 haven't even bothered to test this, and they're just saying it's a feature to get out of it... yet they have no idea what Line 6 has or hasn't done to test this... not saying you are one of those people, but a credible opinion should be based on fact or experience of something.

I've got no beef with you as a person though or generally on this forum... my remark about your POD HD was simply meant as a little joke, but perhaps it was over the line.

Peace

Rowbi

Thanks for that Rowbi,

You and I have disagreed at least a couple of times on this forum over the years, but in the end, I respect you and think you are an asset to this community, I certainly have learned a few things from you over the years. Once again, we might disagree on this particular topic but you make a very valid point. I don't have any personal experience with this unit or this problem at hand, but whenever I posed those questions about this problem and the response from Line6 and the community, I was being genuine, I think my questions were very much valid.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by lowyaw on 2011-02-05 12:57:46

that's very strange

i just used the save as feature in the L6 HD edit

may be you'll have more luck with this one?

it's the same guitar



Re: Crossover type distortion
by Rowbi on 2011-02-05 13:01:57

"timowens wrote:

You and I have disagreed at least a couple of times on this forum over the years, but in the end, I respect you and think you are an asset to this community, I certainly have learned a few things from you over the years. Once again, we might disagree on this particular topic but you make a very valid point. I don't have any personal experience with this unit or this problem at hand, but whenever I posed those questions about this problem and the response from Line6 and the community, I was being genuine, I think my questions were very much valid."

I agree, you are always genuine... and the respect is 2 way for sure.

Hang on, did we just agree on something?? 



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by Rowbi on 2011-02-05 13:12:03

lowyaw wrote:

that's very strange

i just used the save as feature in the L6 HD edit

may be you'll have more luck with this one?

it's the same guitar

we have a winner.

i was able to hear it with that patch, although your mp3 from the previous patch showed the issue better...

BUT I got it.  tweaking my guitar vol down or using pad did seem to help a little, but it's a tricky little sausage..... that said, I personally don't know what a real fender of this model and era should actually sound like.... Line 6 tells us it's accurate, and that it's background Class A/B distortion because the class A  tubes are being pushed into saturation and cut off...

I will point my findings out to Rick with an unbiased opinion, and we will see...

Cheers

Rowbi



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by lowyaw on 2011-02-05 13:13:08

some more

i checked the h5e file this time, should work okay



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by lowyaw on 2011-02-05 13:15:26

i'm glad i was of some help to you guys

thanks a lot for your patience, i hope we'll hear some good news soon



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by variableresults on 2011-02-05 13:15:47

Here is a clip of the Supro model with the gain at 0%, all other knobs at 50%, channel volume maxed so we can actually hear it.  I used the PhD cab since the Supro cab tends to muffle the sound a lot.

http://soundcloud.com/variableresults/supro-fizz

SuhrS1 with SSV bridge pickup (9K ohms) -> HD500 -> Cubase SX5 -> MP3.

So if the S6616 is singled ended class A, how can we have crossover distortion on it?



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by lowyaw on 2011-02-05 13:19:40

yep, that is the symptom exactly



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by phil_m on 2011-02-05 13:30:55

To be honest with you, I'm not hearing the same type of clipping in that track as the other clips.  I hear a slight clip, but that could be the result of simply having the channel volume maxed out.  It is still possible to clip at any point along the virtual signal path in the POD.  I guess that doesn't sound that different from what I'd expect from someone strumming pretty hard on a bridge pickup.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by Rowbi on 2011-02-05 13:36:48

variableresults wrote:

Here is a clip of the Supro model with the gain at 0%, all other knobs at 50%, channel volume maxed so we can actually hear it.  I used the PhD cab since the Supro cab tends to muffle the sound a lot.

SuhrS1 with SSV bridge pickup (9K ohms) -> HD500 -> Cubase SX5 -> MP3.

So if the S6616 is singled ended class A, how can we have crossover distortion on it?

I hear it...

can you please post your patch that you used?  the reason I ask is to rule out me not setting up my POD in the same way as you did.  so I can be 100% certain of the same settings.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by variableresults on 2011-02-05 14:07:37

Rowbi wrote:

variableresults wrote:

Here is a clip of the Supro model with the gain at 0%, all other knobs at 50%, channel volume maxed so we can actually hear it.  I used the PhD cab since the Supro cab tends to muffle the sound a lot.

SuhrS1 with SSV bridge pickup (9K ohms) -> HD500 -> Cubase SX5 -> MP3.

So if the S6616 is singled ended class A, how can we have crossover distortion on it?

I hear it...

can you please post your patch that you used?  the reason I ask is to rule out me not setting up my POD in the same way as you did.  so I can be 100% certain of the same settings.

Here it is:

http://line6.com/customtone/tone/210122/



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by variableresults on 2011-02-05 14:09:29

phil_m wrote:

To be honest with you, I'm not hearing the same type of clipping in that track as the other clips.  I hear a slight clip, but that could be the result of simply having the channel volume maxed out.  It is still possible to clip at any point along the virtual signal path in the POD.  I guess that doesn't sound that different from what I'd expect from someone strumming pretty hard on a bridge pickup.

I hear what you're saying, but wouldn't the channel volume being maxed causing clipping also be an issue?  Anyway, if you want I can do a patch without the channel volume maxed.  It was a necessity because with the gain at 0, it's a bit quiet.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by Crusty_Old_Rocker on 2011-02-05 23:51:28

Rowbi wrote:


I personally don't know what a real fender of this model and era should actually sound like....

I went back to checking this again with the Fender Twin model, I used the Variax with default pickup level  settings for the Lester and what I am getting is the background  distortion associated with the crossover stage of the push/pull class A/B mode.

It's  understandable how people might not like it but this is what those amps  actually do.

Here are the most important things to note on this whole topic:

People don't usually hear this distortion characteristic with the real amps for one  simple reason, it only occurs when these amps are so freakin' loud that nobody usually drives them this hard.

The only time they would be driven this hard is back in the good old days when amps weren't mic'd for a live gig and would only occur in a packed dance hall with the rest of the band going nuts over the top of it.

The  Fender Twin doesn't have a drive control.  The drive control on the  HD500 is the volume control on the real amp.  Maxing out the drive control is the same as winding a real Twin to full volume.  In a live  situation with the real amp, the audience isn't going to hear the  distortion because it is in the background of the tone and only those  who have their nose up against the speaker grille are going to hear it,  but only if they don't go completely deaf within a couple of seconds whilst listening for it.

It  isn't a nice distortion at all, there's no doubt about that, but the fact remains that it is true to  the amp and just goes to show how authentic the modelling is.

Cheers,

Crusty



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by Crusty_Old_Rocker on 2011-02-06 00:09:58

cGil wrote:

I don't believe there is a single ended amp model available in the '16'.

Class A?  Nada one!  Sorry.

Gil...

Are you sure?

Supro = open ended with a single 6V6.

http://www.schematicsunlimited.com/download.php?manu=supro&file=supro-s6616-amplifier-schematic.pdf&wc=true

TheGibson isn't though.

Gibson = class A/B - pair of 6L6s and a 6N7 doing the split.

http://www.gibson.com/Files/schematics/EH-185%20Amp.pdf

Cheers,

Crusty



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by blk18t on 2011-02-06 00:42:48

Crusty_Old_Rocker wrote:

It  isn't a nice distortion at all, there's no doubt about that, but the fact remains that it is true to  the amp and just goes to show how authentic the modelling is.

Could you please post a link to the clip of the real amp showing this behavior ?   You claim that the HD500 is true to the amp, and IMHO this late into the thread you'd better have something to back that up with.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by jeff5x0 on 2011-02-06 05:50:07

Thats all fine and dandy. My drive/volume control of the Fender never made it past 30-40% and still was clipping when strumming hard. And what about the other amps that are included that are clipping? And why am I not getting this clipping noise with other modelers? Im not trying to a pest here. I just find it odd that everyone seems to be putting it off on amp characteristics. Im clearly not as smart or well versed in amps such as yourself (not even close), but my ears tell me this is digital clipping. Even at low levels (very low levels) when strumming hard, these amp sims produce a nasty clipping sound. I would like to hear a sample of the real amp doing this as well, set to low to moderate levels, strummed hard.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by phil_m on 2011-02-06 06:08:12

I don't have a Fender Twin, but I do have its smaller brother, the Deluxe Reverb (the re-issue), and I have to say that if you would turn the volume up to 4, it can start exhibiting some unfavorable distortion characteristics with certain pickups.  I have never cranked it all the way, but I suppose if I did, I wouldn't be surprised to hear some crossover distortion.  Regarding the Twin, those amps are so loud in real life that a lot of guys never go past 3 on the volume knob (if you can stand that).  So even turning the drive knob up to 50% probably represents a situation that you would rarely see in real life.  Actually, if you read reviews for these Fender amps, it's not uncommon for people to say stuff like, "this amp is great for single coils, but not the best for Les Pauls" or "plan on buying an EQ pedal if you want to use this amp with humbuckers".



Re: Crossover type distortion
by amgamg on 2011-02-06 06:27:16

Stand down....Just Line6 Testing Twin Reverbs Again

33325526_35ca80e14c.jpg



Re: Crossover type distortion
by amgamg on 2011-02-06 06:31:01

plugging-ears.jpgYep..there it is..told ya..see...told ya!



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by lowyaw on 2011-02-06 07:42:06

even if this distortion is a part of the actual amps' behaviour, then, to me, this specific element of the "tube glory" should have been left behind and omitted, for good. i played the thing (hd500) all day today, and all Fender models where clipping this way, as well as the Hiwatt and AC30. Try putting a cleanish screamer in front of a bassman with amp gain roughly halfway up, and the fizz will be simply overwhelming. that should really, really be eliminated from the software models. in addition, this distrortion starts the moment you hit a chord, and then disappears abruptly, like in some bad distortion pedal. i don't care for that "crackle okay" kind of authenticity. though I believe that could have really been the amp (-s); i used to own an early 2-ch dual recto that would clip on the clean channel in the most "digital" way you can imagine.

uh, i hope it gets sorted out somehow. there's no chance I can replace my HD500 anytime soon



Re: The Engl needs to sound more like a Peavey Rage
by Crusty_Old_Rocker on 2011-02-06 08:36:54

The idea is to MODEL real amps and produce a device that sounds and behaves like the real amp.  If you don't want the tones of these classic amps then the POD is probably not the right device for your needs.  If you want pretend amps that produce amp like tones of amplifiers that never existed then there are plenty of companies that do that sort of thing.

Interestingly, the Bassman, the Deluxe, Twin and Vox amps are my favourites because they are so true to the real amps.  These amps were designed long before many of the people who use Line 6 gear were born.  But that doesn't mean younger guitarists wouldn't use them.  Jack White is amazing and plays through an old Silvertone.  Now there's a REAL guitarist.  Although, his music is probably too sophisticated for most shred kiddies.

Anyone who cannot understand and appreciate the nuances of these classic amps should stick with the modern amp models and leave these classic to those who know how to use them.

Perhaps those of us who know and have played these amps should start a thread to insist that all the modern amp models that Line 6 do are horrible and demand that they should be made to sound like a Peavey Rage because that's what a modern amp sound should sound like.

Man, if you don't like the Fender or Vox amp models, go find one that you do like.  I hate the Engl model, it's completely useless, a complete load of rubbish.  I don't whinge about it, I just accept that it's a cr@p amp and don't use it.  Perhaps some of the posters on this thread should look for one of these:  http://line6.com/hd147/

Man,I'm off to start a FIZZ thread for the Engl model and demand that it be turned into something that sounds like a Peavey Rage.  Yeah, 15 watts of modern solid state goodness into a single 8" speaker.   Let's see if we can get that Engl sounding nothing like it should.

Cheers,

Crusty



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by cGil on 2011-02-06 08:40:31

I stand corrected!  There is a Single Ended amp model!  The Supro!   No crossover distortion even possible here.  However, there is that sweet SE, even-harmonics laden, power tube distortion character; so I'd still argue the Class A part.   That is definitely not a HiFi amp; and when clipping like that, it's operating more into the Class A/B zone than Class A!         http://www.aikenamps.com/SingleEnded.htm

Butthe Gibson is in Push Pull, and while it is also cathode biased, it still isn't operating in Class A.  Rough calculations from the schematic indicate it may be biased a little warm; but Class A? Ain't no way!   Here's why.   http://www.aikenamps.com/VoxAC30classA_2.html

Andhere's a primer on fixed vs cathode bias in general.   http://www.aikenamps.com/WhatIsBiasing.htm

BTW, the Fender Twin has a bias adjustment pot. There's no excuse for crossover distortion, unless engineer type did it to 50% according to HiFi tube data specs (they don't know about guitar tones).  Better to let a guitar playing amp technician take care of guitar amp biasing to 70%, and avoid the nasty crossover distortion alltogether.

Oh, and thanks for the schematics links.  I've been hurting ever since Schematic Heaven went offline and discovered the web archives don't have the complete library.

Gil...



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by Crusty_Old_Rocker on 2011-02-06 08:50:53

I know what you mean, it's pushed right over into that distortion space.

I do know what true open ended is.  Thanks for the primer, but I build cathode biased guitar amps.  I Built my first valve amp when I was 16, over 30 years ago.  I have only just gotten back into over the past few years.  It was fun remembering all that I learned when I was a kid.

Do we really want a true class A design for guitar?  I don't want to plug my guitar into a Hi Fi amp, do you? 

Cheers,

Crusty



Re: The Engl needs to sound more like a Peavey Rage
by lowyaw on 2011-02-06 08:52:29

dude, no need to take it that close nad  personal

i totally appreciate patience and time Line 6 people spend on often pointless remarks from users...

i do totally understand the ambiguous nature of the subject - make it real, or make it nice?

moreover, i used L6 gear before and probably will use it in the future; there's nothing wrong with it, as well as nothing is wrong with the rest of the gear I use.

but with all due respect, it looks like way too many people speak of the same symptom, and even statistically, that's a reason to get somewhat alert. why get so defensive? hell, what if the crackley units simly have bad chips from a bad batch, and yours has a good one? .

peace, love and good happiness stuff ))



Re: The Engl needs to sound more like a Peavey Rage
by meambobbo on 2011-02-06 09:10:47

Crusty,

You're missing the point.  We're only given two options - don't use the power amp emulation at all or use it at full blast (at volumes you just said no one would want to play at).  It's not that people don't want sincere emulations of the real amps.  It's that they want emulations of them using settings on them that make them sound good.  Since there is no parameter to control the power amp gain, Pod HD users cannot alter how large an impact the power amp emulation is making on their tone.

The amp volume knob on the Pod HD (as well as the Master knob and the mixer controls) has nothing to do with emulation.  It is a completely tone-transparent knob, as mentioned in the Pilot's Handbook.  So you can't dial out the clipping like you would with a real Fender.  So one could just as equally argue that the Pod HD's amp models are not authentic, because on a real Fender your master volume knob isn't stuck at 100% (or wherever it's stuck at).  Or you could just as easily say that if Line 6 wanted to be SO authentic, they'd give you a volume knob that controlled both volume and power amp emulation - isn't that how a REAL Fender works?

I'm sorry but I agree with the posters who think that if that's the way you're going to do it (the strict 2 choices of no power amp emulation or fixed-level power amp emulation), then you should purposefully try to avoid getting that sound, either by dialing back the power amp gain, or by making a "pretend amp".  Especially when you only have a couple amps that can go completely clean (because they aren't clean with this issue).

Again, maybe I missed it, but I haven't heard one person think that this "feature" is a good thing.  Several people have actually returned units because of it.  I can't imagine anyone buying a Pod HD because of this authenticity.

So the authenticity isn't the problem.  It's the lack thereof.  IE - on real amps, you can dial back the power amp gain, or adjust the bias.  On the Pod HD, you cannot.



Re: The Engl needs to sound more like a Peavey Rage
by cGil on 2011-02-06 09:12:54

I'm just saying it's one thing to tempt us with 16 legendary amps; but if those models don't deliver on the legendary tone, it's quite another matter!  Consider that the amps that made legends of themselves could not have done so if the the majority of 'em suffered from legendary warts at the time.  If they were so warty, nobody would've been playing 'em in the first place!  In support of this, allow me to remind us all of what happened after CBS started penny pinching (warting up) the Fender product lineup of the late 60's.   CBS tarnished the legends, they did!

Gil...



Re: The Engl needs to sound more like a Peavey Rage
by meambobbo on 2011-02-06 09:21:35

In case I wasn't clear enough, nobody's asking to make an Engl sound like a Peavey Rage.

How would one make the Pod HD's blackface sound like the real thing, except only using 20% volume?  It cannot be done.  You are given whatever master volume (power amp gain) level that is fixed into each full model.  No one's asking for a modern amp.  They just want to be able to dial in a useable tone on the Blackface, something you CAN do with the real Fender, as you just mentioned.

So please stop trying to label us as idiots and idealists.  Our case isn't so crazy.  In actuality, we're the ones begging for authenticity.



Re: The Engl needs to sound more like a Peavey Rage
by amgamg on 2011-02-06 09:33:06

-6201705149743680.jpg

In case I wasn't clear enough, nobody's asking to make an Engl sound like a Peavey Rage.

What'da ya mean nobody??? While were at it here's a very modern model sorely under represented in the HD 500! Just look at all those knobbies!



Re: The Engl needs to sound more like a Peavey Rage
by meambobbo on 2011-02-06 09:42:35

For those who actually care about this issue, I think I've found a decent workaround, but it does require 1 FX block.

Put a Studio EQ right before the amp, and set the gain to -12 db (leave the other controls alone).  Then set the mixer volume to +12 db.  This prevents the Blackface's power amp from distorting, but you still dial back in the volume.

If you're still getting distortion, try using the pad switch, or lowering your pickups away from the strings.



Re: The Engl needs to sound more like a Peavey Rage
by amgamg on 2011-02-06 09:50:45

cGil wrote:

I'm just saying it's one thing to tempt us with 16 legendary amps; but if those models don't deliver on the legendary tone, it's quite another matter!  Consider that the amps that made legends of themselves could not have done so if the the majority of 'em suffered from legendary warts at the time.  If they were so warty, nobody would've been playing 'em in the first place!  In support of this, allow me to remind us all of what happened after CBS started penny pinching (warting up) the Fender product lineup of the late 60's.   CBS tarnished the legends, they did!

Gil...

Good point...maybe this will help...never know

PediFix%20Wart%20STICK%20Reviews.jpg



Re: The Engl needs to sound more like a Peavey Rage
by meambobbo on 2011-02-06 09:52:23

The workaround I just mentioned probably won't work on patches where you use the amp's drive knob, because this will try to boost the volume back to similar levels as if you never used the studio EQ, in the pre-amp stage of the amp - before the power amp section, which is distorting.

Which reveals another lack of authenticity in the Pod HD - you can't put effects between the pre-amp stage and power-amp stage of an amp, like you would be able to on a real amp via an effects loop.  While the Pod HD lets you use an effects loop almost anywhere in your chain, the only place you can't put it is the only place it actually would occur in a real signal chain - between the pre-amp and power-amp.  Irony.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by Rowbi on 2011-02-06 10:18:46

cGil wrote:

BTW, the Fender Twin has a bias adjustment pot. There's no excuse for crossover distortion, unless engineer type did it to 50% according to HiFi tube data specs (they don't know about guitar tones).  Better to let a guitar playing amp technician take care of guitar amp biasing to 70%, and avoid the nasty crossover distortion alltogether.

have you read this page: http://line6.com/hd-modeling/

also,just FYI, just because someone is a DSP engineer, doesn't mean he can't be a guitar player, and just as in the know as you are Gil.  You and a lot of other people around here seem to think that line 6 only has expertise in digital modelling, and that they picked up a bunch of amps of ebay or something... and just went with them... that's as far from the truth as it can be.  I get baffled by talking to one of the DSP engineers at L6, because he hears things from tube amps that I just don't hear, and his knowledge is right up there in what causes every aspect of an amps tone.  he needs to know that to be able to model the amps, and I assume to be able to cook up some of the cool things miller hinted at.

it's true to say the warts and all thing is part of what Line 6 do, but to me it seems like they went a long way to ensure their amps didn't have any warts that would sound bad compared to the legend of the amps.

just my opinion.



Re: The Engl needs to sound more like a Peavey Rage
by variableresults on 2011-02-06 10:25:10

meambobbo wrote:

In case I wasn't clear enough, nobody's asking to make an Engl sound like a Peavey Rage.

How would one make the Pod HD's blackface sound like the real thing, except only using 20% volume?  It cannot be done.  You are given whatever master volume (power amp gain) level that is fixed into each full model.  No one's asking for a modern amp.  They just want to be able to dial in a useable tone on the Blackface, something you CAN do with the real Fender, as you just mentioned.

So please stop trying to label us as idiots and idealists.  Our case isn't so crazy.  In actuality, we're the ones begging for authenticity.

I'm wondering if, given there are preamp models of these amps as well, Line6 didn't model the Drive knob as the Preamp level before it hits the poweramp, with the poweramp cranked as high as it can go?  One would expect the non-MV amps' Drive knob to match up with the real amps' volume knob, but what if that's not the case?  In most cases we shouldn't be hearing crossover distortion until well above 75% on this control, yet we're getting it at 0% in some cases.  Almost like if you plugged your guitar into the FX Return of a cranked poweramp. 

In my opinion, the channel Volume knob is completely unnecessary since we also have the mixer.  I think it would be better matched as the volume control of the actual amp it is modeling.  And if that amp doesn't have a master-volume, then it or the Drive knob should be disabled (the same goes for the Presence knob on amps that don't have it). 

I'm curious to see what Line6 believes will qualify as "cool stuff" in our eyes.  Here's hoping we don't have to wait another three months to see it.



Re: The Engl needs to sound more like a Peavey Rage
by Rowbi on 2011-02-06 10:30:42

variableresults wrote:


One would expect the non-MV amps' Drive knob to match up with the real amps' volume knob, but what if that's not the case? 

correct.

http://www.ampwares.com/amp.asp?id=59

nomention of a master volume.  so I guess the vol knob on the real amp = drive on the pod.  the chan volume is just a volume control that I assume is incraesing the output of the models volume, and doesn't relate to the tube power amp at all, so will only adjust heard volume and nothing more...

so with that in mind... how can L6 have over cooked the master on that amp??



Re: The Engl needs to sound more like a Peavey Rage
by meambobbo on 2011-02-06 10:40:11

Yeah, Line 6 needs better documentation on this.

Either they are making "pretend amps" that have mid/presence/drive knobs that weren't on the original amps, or they need to specify how the controls they provide actually map to the controls on the original amps.

The bottom line is if I wanted distortion out of the blackface, I wouldn't set the drive knob on 0%.



Re: The Engl needs to sound more like a Peavey Rage
by AZGdude on 2011-02-06 10:45:05

meambobbo wrote:

Again, maybe I missed it, but I haven't heard one person think that this "feature" is a good thing.  Several people have actually returned units because of it.  I can't imagine anyone buying a Pod HD because of this authenticity.

So the authenticity isn't the problem.  It's the lack thereof.  IE - on real amps, you can dial back the power amp gain, or adjust the bias.  On the Pod HD, you cannot.

I can say I would have returned my POD HD500 if it where an option (it was a Christmas present bought the end of November) and waited for this to be fixed or moved on to another product. Why? because I do not like this "feature" and it does not represent what I remember of the real amps.

As I have stated before, in the past I owned both a Fender Twin Reverb, Vox AC30 and a few other tube amps not modeled. I do not remember any of them every reacting to heavy strumming the way the HD does. Now it is true the Fender was seldom if ever turned up beyond ~3 because it was so loud. But it always sounded great no matter how hard I played. If I had turned it up to 8, maybe it would have had a clipping distortion. But I would have been so far away from it that I probably would have found it difficult to hear the clipping. The HD Vox AC30 (along with other amp models) also get an unpleasant upper register white noise when strummed hard that I do not remember the real AC30 having. Furthermore, other modelers I have tried do NOT exhibit these "features" and I absolutely prefer them that way. Its a bummer that this one "feature" is ruining what is otherwise a great product in my opinion.

My recommendation to anyone considering buying a HD is make sure you buy it at a place with a good return policy and then thoroughly test it with your guitars and return it if you are not happy. If Line 6 gets enough returns they will eventually have to address this issue.



Re: The Engl needs to sound more like a Peavey Rage
by Rowbi on 2011-02-06 10:46:46

I'm really thinking of not bothering here.

we've got people asking for more control of the amps, others asking for the models to be changed to fix the sound of the real amps, some asking for documentation, some saying line 6 don't know about amps.....

I'm starting to see why Line 6 take their time to respond to things like this, as regardless of what will happen on this, not everyone will end up happy, because it seems a hunt is on, and some people will only be happy if line6 go back 50 years and tell Leo his amps stink, and to change how they sound...

I think it's for sure worth waiting for these cool things that are coming, but it may well be that some people just want their  valve junior (a step up from a peavy rage) and if it sounds different then it must be wrong...

have a little faith



Re: Crossover type distortion
by Mrwonka on 2011-02-06 11:11:05

Do you think Line6 could fly all of you guys to our hosues and we can play for you?  I mean seriously, we send you are units and it wont matter.  Maybe you guys can set up a tutorial on your web site on how to properly set up your pod and properly create patches!  I'm not wasting my F'en time after I busted out 500+ dollars on it.  I'm lazy and I have more imoprtant thing to do than call you guys up or send a unit that is perfectly fine.  I don't need to be sold with some bull doo doo politics about how everyone is having differen't porblems, or were not trying hard enough.  In the end, its a great vision of a product.  I guess it works for some and not for others.  I really don't know.  But I'm just hoping line6 can do something at some point.  If not, fine.  I'm just not buying a product form you guys anymore.  It not going to hurt your sales.  I udnerstand, I'm a business man too.  I made a bad investment I guess.  500 gone, I move on.  I'm not pissed.

Listen, line 6 is business.  They are in the guitar business to make money.  Like every company out there, moeny money money.  I think they're statement was junk, but most companies do this stuff.  Nothing new.

but anyways, I liked some of the posts I've read on here.  some people have really hit the nail on head with this digital clpping.  So very obvious to me.  But we must either be the minority, or everyone else doens't have tthe time to make an account and come post on line6's forum.  I'll take that later   The clean amps are broken, just fix them and make us happy.

peace.



Re: Crossover type distortion
by Mrwonka on 2011-02-06 11:12:05

haha, owned!  more BS poltics.



Re: The Engl needs to sound more like a Peavey Rage
by variableresults on 2011-02-06 11:16:36

Rowbi wrote:

variableresults wrote:


One would expect the non-MV amps' Drive knob to match up with the real amps' volume knob, but what if that's not the case? 

correct.

http://www.ampwares.com/amp.asp?id=59

nomention of a master volume.  so I guess the vol knob on the real amp = drive on the pod.  the chan volume is just a volume control that I assume is incraesing the output of the models volume, and doesn't relate to the tube power amp at all, so will only adjust heard volume and nothing more...

so with that in mind... how can L6 have over cooked the master on that amp??

What I'm saying is that it seems like no matter where the drive knob is, the poweramp is cooked to the point of crossover distortion.  This could be because they keep the poweramp in the full model cranked regardless of where the drive knob is, and treat the drive knob as the preamp output to the poweramp.  What my ears are telling me is that if this sound is indeed crossover distortion, the full amp models are getting into it WAY before they would in real life. Like I said, after standing next to a cranked Hiwatt DR103, I can tell you that it makes none of the fizzy noise that I hear in the HD 500 model.  It's almost like the poweramp sim's distortion is increasing beyond would it would in real life.  Or the amps need to be properly biased.

Simply put, for many of us the "clean" models are absolutely useless because the fizz is so prominent at any drive level.  But really, if any of us are going to buy Line6's line, Line6 is going to have to do some professional clips of the real amp with the same settings as the POD model to prove that this fizz is in fact there.



Re: The Engl needs to sound more like a Peavey Rage
by phil_m on 2011-02-06 12:16:38

Well, I do not expect that they would ever record clips like that.  It's not like people would believe them anyway.  If the same thing showed up in the clip, people would invariably say the amp itself is broken or not right.

In any case, I think people may be surprised at what Line 6 can pull out of its magic hat.  Hang in there.  I don't doubt that the cool stuff will be pretty cool.



Re: The Engl needs to sound more like a Peavey Rage
by meambobbo on 2011-02-06 12:16:40

Rowbi,

I assume that I am one of the people you are mentioning saying that we're all over the place.  Let me be clear.  If Line 6's statement is accurate - that the clipping is being caused by the model's power amp emulation - then a number of solutions could be made available to remedy the problem.  These may appear to be all over the place, but they are all simply a means to eliminating this problem, which is what this thread is about - eliminating unwanted clipping.

I'm not dogging Leo's amp building - I love the sound of the real amp.  But the real amp let the user dial in a good sound without getting the distortion we're getting. It's not that it's there or not - it's that it's there and we don't want it to be, but it's VERY difficult/impossible to dial it out.

Look, I'm not going to pull punches - I have been a little beetchy lately, and I apologize if that's interfered with a constuctive dialetic.  But there are practical, holistic solutions to this problem, and we should all be in favor of them.  Moreover, they are stand-alone improvements, and can be implemented order-independent.

Documentation on how the available controls on the Pod relate to the controls on the amp models - for most amps, this is common sense, but if there are unique ways of dialing nasty sounding tones on the real amps and this is correctly modeled on the Pod, then users could ensure they aren't making such novice mistakes.  The voicing switches and special-named knobs have documentation, on amps such as the blackface, one can only wonder what drive, mids, presence actually mean.  Moreover, if the amount of power amp simulation or power amp gain being used is fixed, as appears to be the case on the blackface, it would be helpful to know at what amp settings these were modeled upon.  All of this information should already be known.

Being able to put effects between the pre-amp and power-amp sections of an amp, known on real amps as the effects loop - without being able to do this, one can't use some effect such as the Studio EQ to dial back the volume of the pre-amp tone, to avoid distorting the power amp section.  On pre-amps that don't use much gain or compression, one could do this before the amp model; but if you use gain, then you're not achieving exactly what you want.

Being able to vary the power amp gain.  This could be mapped to the volume control, and the mixer could be used to adjust levels between patches.  Or it could be an independent parameter.

I guess it just upsets me that the experts are taking an attitude that we're either doing something stupid, or never satisfied, or making things up.  None of these things are true.  Stepping back and taking an honest assessment of the Pod HD, not its customers, reveals that authenticity of amp behavior without the same authenticity of amp control can be a bad thing - in fact, it can cost the company customers.  I mean this is like basically saying you have an authentic Rectifier simulation, but then saying it has two drive settings: 0% and 100%.  It doesn't matter how authentic those sounds are - they're not the ideal tone you'd dial in on a real Rectifier.



Re: The Engl needs to sound more like a Peavey Rage
by amgamg on 2011-02-06 12:20:05

imagesx.jpgWhat was that?



Re: The Engl needs to sound more like a Peavey Rage
by amgamg on 2011-02-06 12:21:12

merry-go-round.jpgOK..Hop right on..give it a go!



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by cGil on 2011-02-06 12:45:31

To Rowbi;

This page? http://line6.com/hd-modeling/

Yep. Read that, and everything else I could find before I bought my HD500.   And after hearing what I immediately thought was power supply hum and the hash of fresh Sozo caps in the BF Twin model and others, it was that page's info on the amp tune ups that led me to consider the possibility that Line 6 simply hadn't taken the time to burn in those freshly re-capped amps before modeling them.   But I'm coming around.   I now suspect that it's just hash/digital distortion/whatever that's still sneaking into the models somehow.  I hope it's not borderline intermittent hardware failure related cuz those are the worst to troubleshoot, but it very well may turn out to be exactly that.    I just can't take the frustration those fresh cap tones cause me right now.  And I missed the sparkle and chime that it seems I can still only get from the real thing.  Sad but true.  

Like I said before, It's one thing to tempt us with legendary brand name amps for the amp models, but it's supposed to be about the legendary tone we should be getting from those amp models that guitar players and music lovers everywhere deserve, just because.  As long as we keep hammering at Line 6 about it and forcing them to  consider the ugly possibility that there really may be a problem with  certain units' hardware, as well as bugs in certain amp models, I'm sure they'll figure it all out and fix those gremlins for the great benefit of the entire world.   And even though I gave mine back, I still really want 'em to fix it cuz I still want one (that works)!   The HD500 is an amazing piece of gear.  Or will be, eventually.  I'm  sure of it. 

I'll be waiting with fingers crossed.

Gil...



Re: The Engl needs to sound more like a Peavey Rage
by Crusty_Old_Rocker on 2011-02-06 17:32:03

Variableresults wrote:

I'm wondering if, given there are preamp models of these amps as well, Line6 didn't model the Drive knob as the Preamp level before it hits the poweramp, with the poweramp cranked as high as it can go?

The 65 Fender twin doesn't have separate controls for the pre amp and power amp.  The class A/B power amp responds to what it receives from the preamp.  There is one volume control for the input you plug into, that's it.  So, on the real amp there is no separate control over the power amp.  The poweramp displays the distortion associated with the cutoff in the power amp valves based on how hard it is hit by the preamp.  The modelled amps uses the drive control as the amp volume control.  If you reduce the drive control, the preamp won't be hitting the power amp so hard and it will sit below the level where the cutoff becomes aparent.

One way to mess with the power amp is to adjust the bias to the point where it is way out of spec.  In the real amp this will alter the tone to the point where it no longer sounds like a 65 Fender Twin (which would render the whole point of modelling the amp redundant) and you would be burning through the valves at a ridiculous rate.

Some posters are contending that NOBODY likes the modelling.  WRONG!  I dig it, I want the Twin to sound and respond like a Twin and that's what it does.  I like it the way it is and prefer authentic amp modelling.  I love the HD modelling of the Twin, Deluxe, Bassman, Hiwatt and Vox models just the way they are because it's just like playing through the real thing.  If I wanted an amp simulation that sounds nothing like the real thing, I'd go buy and old Zoom GFX707.

For those who want a Fender Twin tonestack with a pristine class A power amplification, the PRE models from the POD HD could be fed into a valve Hi Fi amp.  Of course it won't sound much like a real 65 Fender Twin but it won't have that class A/B background distortion.

Choice of guitar is an essential element of getting a desireable tone from an amp.  Back in 1965, how many guitars loaded with overbaked pickups were being plugged into Fender Twins?  Some amps are far better suited to certain guitars.  I know my Strat (and Variax modelling a Strat) sound awesome through the Fender Twin model.  The Les Paul, not so nice, but I logically select the Park 75 and JTM45 for the Les Paul ("You know it makes sense." - The Goodies).  Might it be possible that when Fender engineered the Twin in the early '60s, they tried to make an amp that worked best with Fender guitars?

From what I understand there have been a lot of POD HDs sold around the world and it would appear that of the thousands of HD owners only a handful of people aren't happy with the level of realism in the modelling.  I certainly hope that a noisy minority don't ruin the authenticity of the amp modelling for those of us who appreciate it.

Keep in mind too that in the past, Line 6 have made "pretend" amps for users who don't like the real thing.  All those Line 6 originals in the POD X3 series will more than likely provide the artificial amp tones that people are looking for.

Anyway, I'm getting off this roundabout.  It's been fun.

Cheers,

Crusty



Re: The Engl needs to sound more like a Peavey Rage
by jeff5x0 on 2011-02-06 18:32:54

Yea I have a Fender with stock single coils. It distorts (clips, or whatever you choose to call it) at very low volumes when strumming hard. You're right this is a roundabout conversation. Ive made my choice for now by moving on to another brand. The fact that I cant get a workable clean tone from a Fender Twin sim is ridiculous. I should be able to get this sound or close to it out of the Fender amp sim. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFklegm91RI&feature=related

href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFklegm91RI&feature=related">



Re: The blackface needs to sound more like a blackface
by meambobbo on 2011-02-06 18:38:22

Crusty, I don't own the amp, so I can't say for sure, but I would assume that it doesn't clip when the volume is between 0 and 1, even if you're using a modern high gain humbucker in the bridge position.  I can get the power amp emulation on the Pod HD's blackface model to clip with the drive knob on 0%.  It seems ridiculous to think my pickups could be hotter than some '65 single coil pickups + the amp's pre-amp stage with volume set above 2.



Re: The Engl needs to sound more like a Peavey Rage
by amgamg on 2011-02-06 18:39:10

Yet I get great sounding Fender sims . I was playing with Twin and Bassman...than some Super O patches...sounds great. Go Figure...By the way Jeff...did ya get Pro Tools 8 or 9 with your new toy..how do you like using Pro Tools..comes with your new one doesnt it?



Re: The Engl needs to sound more like a Peavey Rage
by jeff5x0 on 2011-02-06 19:02:09

Hey amg. Yea Pro Tools 8 comes with it. Im new to the whole DAW based recording. Ive had a Roland VS 2000 in my studio for the last 6 years. I tried Reaper a few weeks back and its really cool. I installed Pro Tools last week and its pretty intimidating but Im to the point where I can record a track now lol. Im kinda stuck between which one to go with right now. Ill keep experimenting tho!



Re: The Engl needs to sound more like a Peavey Rage
by amgamg on 2011-02-06 19:05:13

I've been looking into computer based stuff...seems a lot of the stand alone machines are disappearing so its a computer based world..was thinking Pro Tools or maybe Record Reason duo..I dunno



Re: The Engl needs to sound more like a Peavey Rage
by jeff5x0 on 2011-02-06 19:26:49

Yea was a tough decision for me to make. But youre right, all of the stand alones have pretty much gone away. Theres nothing wrong with my Roland, but I figured it was time to learn the technology or watch it pass me by and be stuck with something that cant be updated and isnt in production anymore.



Re: Why I Didn't Send In My Pod When Offered To Do So
by Texxxxx on 2011-02-06 19:30:26

Attn amgamg:

To those of you, especially amgamg, that are wondering why some of us did not take up Mr. Miller's offer of sending in our pods:

Line6Miller wrote:

I'm not hearing Fizz or Hash here. I'm hearing something that sounds like digital clipping on the input of the POD. I really want to make sure we are not confusing all of these things.

I answered:

I am hearing only the digital clipping, and that is all I am talking about.

Mr. Miller responded:

Great. Thanks for clarifying. It's really important that we all understand what we are looking for and what we are hearing.

This is why I decided to not send my pod in.  Mr. Miller was already reproducing what I was hearing, so why bother?

At this point the engineers pointed out, that in their opinion, that this was normal behavior.

I felt no need to send in a unit as Line 6 can obviously already produce what I percieve the problem to be.  Additionally, the offer to send one in was not a situation where you would just RMA your pod and they would send a new one immediately.  The way Mr. Miller explained it to me, was that they would hold on to, and test my pod to see if it was defective.  It they determined it wasn't, they would send mine back, and this process would take about two weeks.

Since they were/are reproducing exactly what I hear/heard, I felt there was no need.



Re: The Engl needs to sound more like a Peavey Rage
by variableresults on 2011-02-06 20:46:39

jeff5x0 wrote:

Yea I have a Fender with stock single coils. It distorts (clips, or whatever you choose to call it) at very low volumes when strumming hard. You're right this is a roundabout conversation. Ive made my choice for now by moving on to another brand. The fact that I cant get a workable clean tone from a Fender Twin sim is ridiculous. I should be able to get this sound or close to it out of the Fender amp sim. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFklegm91RI&feature=related

class="jive-link-external-small" href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFklegm91RI&feature=related">

YES.  That is what a Twin is supposed to sound like.  And what don't we hear in that clip?  Fizz.  Thanks for posting, you just made me want to drop coin on a nice Strat & Twin Reverb now



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by Rowbi on 2011-02-07 00:18:18

cGil wrote:

To Rowbi;

This page? http://line6.com/hd-modeling/

Yep. Read that, and everything else I could find before I bought my HD500.   And after hearing what I immediately thought was power supply hum and the hash of fresh Sozo caps in the BF Twin model and others, it was that page's info on the amp tune ups that led me to consider the possibility that Line 6 simply hadn't taken the time to burn in those freshly re-capped amps before modeling them.   But I'm coming around.   I now suspect that it's just hash/digital distortion/whatever that's still sneaking into the models somehow.  I hope it's not borderline intermittent hardware failure related cuz those are the worst to troubleshoot, but it very well may turn out to be exactly that.    I just can't take the frustration those fresh cap tones cause me right now.  And I missed the sparkle and chime that it seems I can still only get from the real thing.  Sad but true.  

Like I said before, It's one thing to tempt us with legendary brand name amps for the amp models, but it's supposed to be about the legendary tone we should be getting from those amp models that guitar players and music lovers everywhere deserve, just because.  As long as we keep hammering at Line 6 about it and forcing them to  consider the ugly possibility that there really may be a problem with  certain units' hardware, as well as bugs in certain amp models, I'm sure they'll figure it all out and fix those gremlins for the great benefit of the entire world.   And even though I gave mine back, I still really want 'em to fix it cuz I still want one (that works)!   The HD500 is an amazing piece of gear.  Or will be, eventually.  I'm  sure of it. 

I'll be waiting with fingers crossed.

Gil...

Gil

I think you're constantly moving the goalposts.  to start with a few posts back, you said you thought line 6 were setting up the amps incorrectly (the bias to be specific) and that obviously the LIne 6 guys weren't guitarists (that's incorrect for a start).  I posted that link because on that page it clearly says they got a top amp experts in LA to look at the amps.

So then you say, maybe they used parts that dont sound right and you ignore the fact that they did get them serviced correctly, and setup by guys who to my mind are the best people to have set them up.

I think perhaps some people on this forum think I'm defending LIne 6... maybe I am, maybe I'm not.  what my intention is, remains to halp people achieve the sound they want.  I think Crusty and the other experts, and Rick have the same goals... so bashing on us isn't gonna help anyone, and with so many people saying they want so many different outcomes from this means that no one will be happy.  Although not saying you personally are bashing.

for example... if the amp techs had replaced none of the caps in the amps, so it wasn't perhaps working correctly, and biased it as hos as possible (70%) would that have made you happy, or would you have said "that amp sounds dull and lifeless, and needs new caps.... oh and it's biased too hot, I can't get clean tones from it"?  All I see is a group of people with an issue, but all wanting line 6 to wave a magic wand and re-do some of the 2-3 years worth of research they did making the POD HD... masybe L6 will come up trumps with these cool new things Miller talks about.... but it aint gonna happen in a week, and it may not be what everyone is asking for....  DO I think it will be good, and make it easier to achieve the tones people want... you betcha,

Rowbi out..... I'm feeling sick of this roundabout already (good call Crusty)

Message was edited by: Rowbi (typo corrected)



Re: Why I Didn't Send In My Pod When Offered To Do So
by amgamg on 2011-02-07 03:14:58

Texxxxx....First...no one   has to do anything cause of me. Second...for two weeks ..sheesh..I would have missed mine but if I really thought there was a problem I'd have done it.

Here's the thing..I've heard clips people posted that clearly sound like whatever Line6 can do to make an amp sound real...I experience this sound daily and I think not only did they do a good job..I like it. Mine can sound clean..and I can make it sound gradually dirtier...very much like a real amp. Perfect...I dunno...but damned impressive IMO.

On the other hand...I've heard clips with crackling noises and fizzy stuff posted by some that does not sound like mine.So the question isn't about if your a good guy or a bad guy...or anything of the sort. The question isn't about if your smart or stupid. The question is why did some of the clips sound unmusical regarding the distortion qualities. Could be the user..could be the machine..could be firmware..I couldn't tell you...but Line 6 can. So its just a shame some of you didn't take Miller up on his offer to go over your machines. If someone did send theirs in...I'm interested to know about the results. I wouldn't be happy if my HD was doing funny stuff. As I said before..I'd be looking for solutions. I wouldn't waste my time thinking..to bad I'm doomed. None of this is personal or an attack..some of the light hearted stuff is just that...not an insult...take this for what it is..I'm just baffled by what people will say and than not do to maybe get a solution .



Re: The Engl needs to sound more like a Peavey Rage
by amgamg on 2011-02-07 03:19:41

Yeah my Korg 1200 is still in service...but before it goes...its time..."The Dreaded Learning Curve". Just the same I have a case of "Plug In Envy". I wanna play with the new stuff. Digital..sucks to learn..but once you have...opens a lotta doors.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by AZGdude on 2011-02-07 08:37:36

Wow... over 12,000 views and 26 pages of responses, but no solution. Just a statement from Line 6 that this clipping noise issue is a "feature" and not a bug.

Being that I am also tiring of this endless roundabout of a tread I will leave with just one more question. Why does it seem that Line 6 is the only company doing guitar amp modeling that feels it is a good idea to include these noise "features" in their models, or at least does not give the end user a way to dial it out if desired? I think everyone can agree that the AxeFx is the king of guitar modelers that sets the standards that all others are judged. From what I understand, this is not a problem on the AxeFx, nor the other standard barer the Eleven Rack. It is also not a problem with software solutions like Amplitube 3 (which I also have). It might be possible to get Amplitube 3 to make clipping or digital hash noises when strumming hard by turning all the knobs to 10, but at normal settings it does not do it. Which is exactly the way I remember my real Fender Twin Reverb, Vox AC30 and other tube amps reacting to heavy strumming at normal user settings. The YouTube clip someone posted earlier of a Twin Reverb is exactly the sound I remember. Warm, clean, no fizz, no white noise, no clipping. Just beautiful sound.

I guess I will wait for the next firmware with the great new things to see if this issue is addressed. If not, I may eBay my HD500 and wash my hands of this whole experience. Which will be a big dissapointment, because I really love the product otherwise. Best reguards to everyone who participated in this tread. Wishing you many more years of happy guitar playing.

AZGdude



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by eejk98 on 2011-02-07 09:02:38

Hmm... This doesn't sound right at all.  If the fizzy/harsh distortion at low gain settings is indeed how the actual amp would behave, I am pretty sure that e.g. the original blackface twin amp would have not become famous for its beautiful sparkle when playing clean - instead it would have become known as an amp with very low clean headroom and harsh sounding crossover distortion...

I don't buy it. That simply isn't at all how the real amps sound when you dial in a clean tone at moderate volumes.

Fingers crossed that Line 6 will find a firmware fix for this strange clipping (whether it really is crossover distortion or not). It seems that for the moment, for quite a number of users, the Pod HD is pretty much unusable for clean sounds - that is an issue that Line 6 should prioritise.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by meambobbo on 2011-02-07 09:10:41

I can get the power amp clipping with 0% drive.  That's not a normal feature of the real amp, afaik.  That's the issue - that the power amp clipping occurs at settings that it wouldn't occur at on the real amp.  Moreover, it can't be dialed out when using nothing more than the amp's controls.

I did post a workaround - put a studio EQ in front the amp and set the gain down (I set it to -12 db).  Use the mixer volume to bring the volume back up.  With that in place you shouldn't get any clipping, even with modern high gain pickups, even if you turn the drive up a bit.  I use this setup and put the drive on 25% and don't have any clipping.  (Note that many ppl are under the belief that the drive knob is emulating the volume knob on the real amp, which might not be 100% correct.)

There was never an offer to send back Pods having this issue.  Miller was trying to organize an effort to get some, but instead came back and said the sound designers verified it was intentional power amp distortion and should be universal to all units.  I guess people with the issue could bring or ship their Pod to an authorized repair center, but they'd just tell you that there was nothing wrong with it.

My main beef is with ppl saying the Pod HD's modeling is perfectly authentic and that I want a "pretend amp". If the Pod's drive knob is an authentic emulation of the real blackface's volume knob, then achieving power amp distortion at 0% drive/volume is not authentic.  That's all I'm saying, but the experts don't want to hear it and instead make jokes about how we want a Peavey Rage, or we would tell Leo Fender his amps sound like crap, or that our guitars are set up so hot as to supply power to the grid.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by meambobbo on 2011-02-07 09:19:02

eejk98 wrote:

Hmm... This doesn't sound right at all.  If the fizzy/harsh distortion at low gain settings is indeed how the actual amp would behave, I am pretty sure that e.g. the original blackface twin amp would have not become famous for its beautiful sparkle when playing clean - instead it would have become known as an amp with very low clean headroom and harsh sounding crossover distortion...

I don't buy it. That simply isn't at all how the real amps sound when you dial in a clean tone at moderate volumes.

Fingers crossed that Line 6 will find a firmware fix for this strange clipping (whether it really is crossover distortion or not). It seems that for the moment, for quite a number of users, the Pod HD is pretty much unusable for clean sounds - that is an issue that Line 6 should prioritise.

Exactly.

But here's what the experts will say - "the amp was made in 1965, so it was designed for pickups that today we'd consider low gain, specifically the single coils used on Fender guitars then.  You trying to use modern pickups on these amps is like <insert ridiculous hyperbole here>."



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by timowens on 2011-02-07 09:23:09

I hate to say it, but I think you guys need to try again. Start another thread and try to keep it focused, provide and many detailed recipes as you can, collect as much data as you can so everyone is on the same page. I think most people in this tread were sincere in expressing a problem that they are experiencing and others were honestly trying to help, but the thread kind of went off in too many directions and all the useful data got lost in the clutter. Here’s one idea you can try, give us another sound clip that demonstrates the problem and provide the settings in text, I have an X3L and some other modelers and I can plug those settings into them and see if they get anywhere near the same sound. Just a thought.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by eejk98 on 2011-02-07 09:27:44

Exactly.

But here's what the experts will say - "the amp was made in 1965, so it was designed for pickups that today we'd consider low gain, specifically the single coils used on Fender guitars then.  You trying to use modern pickups on these amps is like <insert ridiculous hyperbole here>."

Well, I'm having this clipping issue when plugging in a Gibbo LP goldtop '56 reissue - its soapbar P90s first appeared in 1952 (and basic design from 1946), so any hyperbole about the clipping being caused by modern high gain pickups is not going to cut it either...



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by jeff5x0 on 2011-02-07 09:51:42

So it doesnt seem like I am dogging Line 6, please watch this video. This is how the Pod is SUPPOSE to sound. It sounds AMAZING! This is NOT what the two Pods I had at my house sounded like. Yes I realize this is an add for Tech 21, but again a properly working Pod is a gorgeous thing. No clipping going on in this vid. Nice clean warm tones that sound like the amp they are mimic-ing. This is the sound that I expected out of my Pod. Note the player is using humbuckers. I was using single coils and had unusable clean tones.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ay8jiYWcCg8&feature=player_embedded



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by jeff5x0 on 2011-02-07 10:03:06

Tim thats not a bad idea. But to be honest, Im tired of "feeling" like people think Im making this up, or that I want an "artificial amp". When in reality, I want the Fender to sound like a Fender, not like some clipping mess.I think that Line 6's assessment of the problem (the amp sim is suppose to be like that) is not a fair one. I have seen at least 3 people offer to send in their Pods with no response. Valid points are being brought up with no answers. Lol Im frustrated and I dont even have the Pod anymore! But youre right this thread has gone in alot of different directions and I am partly to blame for that. So hopefully someone else will start a new thread. I wont contribute, but will read it in hopes that Line 6 will make some headway with this issue.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by Mrwonka on 2011-02-07 10:12:47

Hey AZGdude, nice post.  I agree with what you said.  Like I said earlier, all we can do at this point is hope they fix.

I'm going to try meanmoob(wehatever his name is) method out.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by desso on 2011-02-07 10:28:57

I think a lot of it comes down to the age old and hotly debated argument... ANALOG or DIGITAL.

Go ask an audiophile purist.

As for me, I'm pretty happy.  I do know that my old Marantz 4 track cassette had natural compression when I peaked the VU meters and a great "warm" sound.

I'm really antsy about the upcoming "COOL STUFF".  Any word??



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by JerryWawak on 2011-02-07 10:36:16

Thanks for your response.  I was afraid this would be the answer.  The "clipping" was a part of the amp's original sound. I don't know why you would leave that undesirable noise in there. If it is really there I can't believe it is as prominent as I am hearing it in mine.  I wish I had known this while I still had time to return it.  More my setup the X3 Live is a much better fit.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by JerryWawak on 2011-02-07 11:14:56

Additionally, the newest Spider uses the same amp sims yet it does not seem to suffer from the same problem.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by cGil on 2011-02-07 11:18:06

Dude!  Chill!   I can offer reports on what my ears are telling me is wrong; but beyond that, all that any of us can do is to speculate as to the cause.   It's the reports of the nasty noise from others that are exactly what's needed for me to reconsider my own speculations and make new ones.  Hope Line 6 is doing the same.   Only trying to help.

As to cap swaps, I did not mean to infer that anyone used cheesy parts or anything less than an engineer (top of the food chain) for tuning up the amps.  But I also know only too well that every tech and engineer has their own opinion of how things should be done.  Many still follow tube data sheets like they're THE VOICE from above, rather than a good suggestion and starting point for tuning the tone by ear.   And I know you know that fine tuning by ear takes extra bench time that a busy amp shop may not be able to spend on a fixed-rate amp tune up.   And lets not forget that all caps, whether bottom of the barrel or top shelf caps, need to fully "form" before they operate within spec and sound like they oughta.  Many modern caps are pre-formed at the factory, but after a year on the shelf, they will need to reform.  Even my favorite boutique-quality tone caps to build amps with sound particularly harsh till they're burned in.  The ear's the thing.  Gotta follow what my ears tell me.

Gil...



Re: The Engl needs to sound more like a Peavey Rage
by amgamg on 2011-02-07 11:28:12

To anyone who thinks they know...if the Tech 21 guys sounds right..and if mine as well as others sounds right...than how can it be firmware????? What would they fix if its not the firmware?????? Why would it be the models if some peoples sound right?



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by lowyaw on 2011-02-07 11:58:15

i have probably found something. or may be i am just tired.

Today was the first day i ran the hd500 into a tube poweramp amp, no cab emulation, stack power amp output mode, as opposed to yesterday's full chain plus Studio/DI output.

Not exactly a dedicated poweramp, but Marshall TSL100 FX return.

I could not hear the "crackling" sound on the blackface and the other fender model. And they sounded kinda good, I now understand why Crusty was so furious. They do sound nice. But I could not hear the clipping. May be because I was tired as a dog already, but I did listen; anyway, it was kind of gone. It was the "Pre" version of the aforementioned models.

Can the clipping occur at the stage where the signal hits the cab impulse?



Re: The Engl needs to sound more like a Peavey Rage
by amgamg on 2011-02-07 12:09:36

I should also mention I always leave my cabs and mics on. I'm plugged into a Blue Angel in the effects return. It sounds good and doesnt clip with or without the cabs. I like the cabs on cause it offers a tonal difference. Sorta like using an additional EQ curve. Either way..no bad clipping.



Re: The Engl needs to sound more like a Peavey Rage
by lowyaw on 2011-02-07 12:16:39

definitely offtopic, but: when I select NO CAB, i still can see that mic emulation is on; does still "inflict" an EQ curve on the tone or does it go off totally? i kept switching the mics today with th ecab off, but i couldn't understand if that was making any difference



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by meambobbo on 2011-02-07 12:28:35

lowyaw,

There are only two ways for me to hear clipping in the "pre" version of the blackface twin.  one is to set my pickups very close to the strings, thereby overdriving the Pod itself - this will cause ALL patches/amp models to clip.  the other is to set the Pod's output level too high so that I clip my audio interface.  These factors are outside the Pod, and should not be regarded as a bug.

Yet if I ensure these problems are not present when using the "pre" version of the amp, I hear no clipping.  Yet I still get clipping in the "full" model, even with drive at 0%.  The clipping is there no matter whether I route the Pod direct to my computer or if I play through a tube poweramp and cabinet.  Other users have noticed that the clipping is still there, even if you route the Pod direct to a computer and disable the cabinet simulation.  It also exists in all cab and mic models.  So it's probably not the cabinet simulation, but the power amp simulation.

The only clipping I hear that's completely internal to the Pod has to do with the power amps of the models, and it's only on some models.  Moreover, it can be dialed out by lessening the signal level sent to the front of the amp model.  So I run a Studio EQ with the gain parameter set to -12 db before the blackface full, and this eliminates the clipping.  I need to use the mixer tool to boost the volume afterwards, but I can dial in a clean sound.  So this tells me that it is indeed the power amp simulation that originates the clipping.



Re: The Engl needs to sound more like a Peavey Rage
by meambobbo on 2011-02-07 12:32:24

lowyaw,

If you select "no cab", it doesn't matter which mic is selected - you'll get the same output.  I don't think it even matters what output mode you're in.  This is a bit deceptive because when you switch mics, the sound drops out temporarily, leading you to believe that something is changing.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by Nick_Mattocks on 2011-02-07 12:54:06

JerryWawak wrote:

Additionally, the newest Spider uses the same amp sims yet it does not seem to suffer from the same problem.

Jerry

The Spider IV and Spider Valve amp modelling does not use the same HD amp sims.  Some of the amps modelled may be the same amps, but the modelling process is different - in that the Spider Valve MkII and Spider IV are not HD units.  Some users of the Spider Valve MkII and Spider IV will say that they don't like how some of the amp models sound either if you read through the appropriate forums.  Quite a few Spider Valve MkII users prefer the amp modelling in f/w 1.17 and don't like the changes made in f/w 1.50 and f/w 2.0. 

Nick



Re: The Engl needs to sound more like a Peavey Rage
by amgamg on 2011-02-07 13:14:59

Not really sure..I leave mine on and flip around looking for what I think sounds best...I'll have to look at it. Its not that I never turned the cab off just never really got to deep into it. While it sounds different with the cab off I never really thought it sounded muffled to leave the cabs on as some people say. It would depend on the real speaker though and how it mixes..I would guess.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by amgamg on 2011-02-07 13:17:02

Lets say your right ..its your power amp sim.So they change it...what happens to mine. Do I go from a good power amp sim to something thats even better...while yours becomes what mine is now?????



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by meambobbo on 2011-02-07 13:39:41

To anyone interested, I started a thread devoted to dialing out the clipping, for those who are getting it:

http://line6.com/community/thread/56251



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by amgamg on 2011-02-07 13:42:28

Good idea..I think I'll check it out!



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by lowyaw on 2011-02-07 14:36:14

meambobbo,

thank you for the explanation. sounds logical to me.

i will also have to spend some more time listening and comparing the sounds I get direct and through a tube poweramp, both full and pre models. there is a possibility that i could overlook clipping tonight.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by KozMcCharlie on 2011-02-08 10:06:38

Something that I've noticed while reading through this threads is that everyone is talking about running these models at what amounts to a very low volume because they think that's what will get the sound the cleanest. In the real world, if you are running a Twin Reverb at a volume of about 1 (which is what you're doing when you set the drive knob so low) you will get awful, thin, fizzle and crackle. You need to give the tubes some juice to perform. That's why tube amps suck. You can't get that juice without volume and volume is not always appropriate.

The problem that I would bet 99% of you with this clipping are experiencing is a lack of savy with the amps in question. That is exacerbated by Line 6 not completely documenting the controls associated with each model. They assume that you know what you are doing with these amps.

Here's the thing... There are a few posts that are mocking the fact that this is a feature. I get where that's coming from. You want to have a digital device that acts like a digital device. That's not what the HD is. The HD is a modeller. It is accurately modeling the behavior of the gear. So maybe the drive knob set at 0 is fine for a digital device. You want clean so set the drive to 0. On a Twin model, I assume that the drive knob controls preamp volume which when set low sounds like excrement.

Solution? Line 6 needs to more accurately detail the functions of the controls.

HEAR THAT LINE 6??? GIVE US A RESOURCE THAT DESCRIBES THE FUNCTION OF EACH CONTROL SO THAT WE CAN USE THEM PROPERLY...



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by Bluestone on 2011-02-08 10:09:16

http://line6.com/company/contact/productfeedback/  

Be sure to voice your ideas to the proper channel...

OM



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by JerryWawak on 2011-02-08 10:14:29

While I agree that more info would be helpful, belive me I have tried all kinds of gain levels.  And yes a tube amp sounds sterile with the gain low.  However I have heard many tube amps that give you nice, clean, warm headroom.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by amgamg on 2011-02-08 10:44:41

Good points...another thing that may be important. In the end the POD isnt a tube amp. Running the Master ..on the POD to low also doesnt work well. I keep mine at 3/4 up. Lower settings dont help the sound..makes it crummy.I control most of the patch volume through the amp level or mixer.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by variableresults on 2011-02-08 11:49:05

KozMcCharlie wrote:

Something that I've noticed while reading through this threads is that everyone is talking about running these models at what amounts to a very low volume because they think that's what will get the sound the cleanest. In the real world, if you are running a Twin Reverb at a volume of about 1 (which is what you're doing when you set the drive knob so low) you will get awful, thin, fizzle and crackle. You need to give the tubes some juice to perform. That's why tube amps suck. You can't get that juice without volume and volume is not always appropriate.

The problem that I would bet 99% of you with this clipping are experiencing is a lack of savy with the amps in question. That is exacerbated by Line 6 not completely documenting the controls associated with each model. They assume that you know what you are doing with these amps.

Here's the thing... There are a few posts that are mocking the fact that this is a feature. I get where that's coming from. You want to have a digital device that acts like a digital device. That's not what the HD is. The HD is a modeller. It is accurately modeling the behavior of the gear. So maybe the drive knob set at 0 is fine for a digital device. You want clean so set the drive to 0. On a Twin model, I assume that the drive knob controls preamp volume which when set low sounds like excrement.

Solution? Line 6 needs to more accurately detail the functions of the controls.

HEAR THAT LINE 6??? GIVE US A RESOURCE THAT DESCRIBES THE FUNCTION OF EACH CONTROL SO THAT WE CAN USE THEM PROPERLY...

That's just the thing, though.  The majority of the amps on the HD are classic, non-master volume circuits.  So "Drive" is really a dubious control, especially on something like a Twin Reverb.  Most people who play through a Twin do so precisely because of the retarded amount of headroom it offers (the same goes for the Hiwatt, which doesn't distort without causing small explosions).  What I'm ragging on Line6 for is the fact that the traditionally high-headroom amps are distorting too early, and in a manner that is unflattering and unrealistic compared to the real thing.  It really does sound like digital distortion to my ears.  And we've already seen at least one Youtube clip of a Twin with the volume on 3 and humbuckers running through it.  I personally run clear, low-output, PAF style humbuckers in my guitars.  I think it's less a humbucker thing and more a treble thing, because for me I don't hear the digital sizzle on positions other than bridge.  Diagnosing this issue solely on output ignores the fact that your pickups are outputting an entire frequency spectrum, some frequencies of which are stronger than others.  I think that may be why some folks aren't hearing this while others are, and this is also why I'm only hearing it in the bridge position of both my Suhr S1 and my G&L Legacy.

The fact that the controls are not at all accurate in a lot of cases only exacerbates this.  When we see a Channel Volume and a Drive knob for a non-MV amp, it's confusing as hell because it leads one to believe that either there was a faux-master volume added to the model, or that the drive knob is the equivalent of the volume knob on the amp it's modeling.  And on top of this, we have a separate mixer block.  Line6 isn't clear on this (and a great many other things), and they really need to be.  It takes little time to do proper documentation in my experience, and most of the time when it doesn't get done it's because developers seem to have some sort of phobia when it comes to describing how their code operates.  Documentation on how the tone controls interact with the drive on the amp, where they are located in the circuit, etc would be very helpful.  Being able to accurately monitor the input level of your guitar would also really help.

Anyway, those are just my thoughts.  I think Line6 really ought to look through this thread and take note of the people who have sold/returned the HD500 for the competition, as well as the reports of those users who are still kind enough to post here about how their new purchases don't exhibit this problem.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by lowyaw on 2011-02-08 13:06:50

i don't think that's the point.

i am pretty sure that line 6 labeled the controls the way that should be - at least that's how i feel after a week of twiddling them. the channel volume is what makes the internal plug in louder or quiter to fit in with other tones you're using, and drive control is what it says - the amount of dirt.

as to the clipping, to me the main question is where is the narrow point, where crackling begins. if you run the pre versions, you get less dirt, and no clipping. at least, I don't hear it. and if you turn volume up, it sounds nice and round. but if you run gain up to 10 - for example, on the deluxe model - you get clipping. with the full model, you get clipping as soon as the models starts to break up

if that's crossover distortion, then the amps were driven too hard while modeling; but again, why the same clipping shows up on "Pre" versions?

the only logical conclusion, is that if L6 took modeling as deep as tube components were concerned, then this crackling is a result of some kind of software inadequacy within the model of a given schematic.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by kevmomuny on 2011-02-08 16:34:44

Hello all,

There is no doubt about it.  Calling the digital fuzz that is present in a number of low gain models a "feature" is, at best insulting.

Anybody who seriously calls this low level fart noise "crossover distortion" or anything other than a problem has never played a tube amp or listened to recorded music. I can't believe that any of the Line 6 programmers who listened to the .mp3 recordings in this thread say that is part of their design.  If you can't play a clean amp model cleanly without lowering your pickups, jacking around with the e.q. and taping marshmallows to your pick, there is a real issue.

I have owned my HD 500 for almost a month.  I LOVE the tones, the effects and the flexibility of this unit.  However, there are a few real issues with this product.  I wish someone from Line 6 would come in and simply say "we're working on it."  I have owned a number of their products over the years and have always been very satisfied.  They have always come through with massive updates to their products via software to sort out issues and increase functionality enormously. I believe they will fix it.

Please guys, strap on a set and say "we are working on it."



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by jeff5x0 on 2011-02-08 19:18:38

+1



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by edhamgtr on 2011-02-08 21:13:32

+11 and +111



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by lowyaw on 2011-02-09 01:11:49

No,  this can't be an option. Even Rowbi said he could hear the crackle.

Rowbi wrote:

we have a winner.

i was able to hear it with that patch, although your mp3 from the previous patch showed the issue better...

BUT I got it.  tweaking my guitar vol down or using pad did seem to help a little, but it's a tricky little sausage..... that said, I personally don't know what a real fender of this model and era should actually sound like.... Line 6 tells us it's accurate, and that it's background Class A/B distortion because the class A  tubes are being pushed into saturation and cut off...

I will point my findings out to Rick with an unbiased opinion, and we will see...

Please guys, strap on a set and say "we are working on it."



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by edhamgtr on 2011-02-09 15:50:02

Gents,

I bought an HD500 and ran smack into this issue.

After owning an original pod, an XT, and and X3, it was pretty surprising.

A quick search of various forums quickly showed it to be not an uncommon problem so I returned the unit. Just don't have the time to struggle with problems.

I will buy again the minute this issue is addressed and solved but not a minute before.

PR type posts from Line 6 "reframing" the problem as a "feature" is foolish. We all know better.

I'm one of the lucky ones that makes a living playing guitar. Should I try and tell the engineer or producer that the nasty digital clipping they're getting in the booth from my HD is a new Line 6 "feature".  "It's the latest in Digital Clipping!!"  "it's a perfect model of a fender that digitally clips like no fender in history!!"

The fact that guys are debating if your pickups are "too close to your strings" is a smokescreen that just yields frustration.

Reading this thread is infuriating in that line 6 "experts" post 4 times as many posts (often in LARGER FONTS) and just confuse the issue with red hearing "solutions".

We all know the difference between analog and digital distortion or clipping.

Some models clip in a bizarre manner. Its that simple.

acknowledge it, give a time table for its solution, and fix it.

Once fixed, I'm back on board.

More obfuscation and I would likely never buy another line 6 product again.

It's called good business practices. Pure and simple.

The guys in various forums have been pretty gentle so far over this issue. And they've offered you a million dollar piece of advice on how to take the HD series to the next level (user cab IR's).

I had my HD500 sitting next to my Fractal.

Like many other fractal users, I need a lighter weight pedalboard version for gigging.

Other than the cab sims - the HD 500 was right in the pocket and would have made my gigging life simpler.

So please deal with QC issues in the manner required by our new socially connected internet age - Openness with proactive solutions.

Frustrate your user base further and you will likely end up with the top 10 google and top 10 youtube HD 500 searches being lovely demo's of horrible digital clipping on clean tube amp models.

Your choice. So far - not doing so well.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by meambobbo on 2011-02-09 16:49:59

I will say that my pickups WERE too close to my strings - I was distorting my audio interface when connected directly to my guitar, and it's rated up to 1.3 V rms (1 V rms is the upper threshold of what most devices expect).  I was also distorting the Pod, even without using any amps or effects.

That said, even after adjusting the guitar so the pickups clearly weren't distorting anything they shouldn't, they still distorted the Blackface "full" model, with the drive turned all the way down.

This can be dialed out (I made a thread demonstrating one way to do so), but I still think it's a problem (especially for HD300/400 users).  There should be at least SOME headroom no matter how hot your pickups are (assuming they aren't distorting digital devices in general).  Most users will notice the distortion and become frustrated and give up before trying to do any research or experimentation.  Others will do research and learn Line 6 is calling this a feature and figure that the product is simply crappy.  Yet others will not be willing to employ the necessary Pod resources to alleviate the problem.

It's difficult to argue about this since we all have different guitars, with different action/pickups, and different playing styles, pick hardness, etc.  It would be nice to be able to get accurate measurements of how hot one's guitar must be to distort the Pod's blackface, but it might not be so simple, depending upon frequency or combinations of frequencies or other variables.  Also, I'm betting few of us have the actual Fender to use in comparison.  And it might not work exactly the same as the Fender(s) that Line 6 used to base their modeling upon.

I'm not doubting that the real Fender's poweramp will clip, and I'll even go so far as to accept that the clipping on the Pod might sound virtually identical to the clipping on the real Fender.  But I have a lot of trouble swallowing that anyone can get the Fender to clip with the volume set to 1-2, even with hot humbucker pickups.  To be honest, I don't care how accurate the clipping is, because 99% of the time I don't want to hear it at all.

Miller said that there's some cool stuff that we're going to like coming up.  One can only assume that this stuff will resolve or alleviate this issue, or that's one serious bait and switch.  I've been SCREAMING that this should be priority one, as it has the largest chance of hurting the HD's success.  Some have said that this problem is limited to maybe a dozen people out of the thousands who bought one.  I don't think that's true - I expect this thread to go on for a long time.  Just wait until a major review or two highlights this feature/bug.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by Mr_Arkadin on 2011-02-09 16:53:04

edhamgtr wrote:

Reading this thread is infuriating in that line 6 "experts" post 4 times as many posts (often in LARGER FONTS) and just confuse the issue with red hearing "solutions".


I just checked this whole thread: there is not a single post by any Line 6 Expert that uses a larger font, so don't try and start some conspiracy where there is none. At least you can post negative comments on the Line 6 forum, unlike the Axe FX one where you'll find it mysteriously disappears and you're PMed not to post again. Charming.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by amgamg on 2011-02-09 17:15:03

Well..you guys are amusing at this point if nothing else. Looks like maybe a dozen people at best just posting the same old same old over and over.Out of the dozen maybe three or four are really having at it. So in Internet lore..that equals thousands of thousands of sales? I doubt it. Dozens of YouTube vids showing the folly...now I'm peeing my pants. See by that standard Ibanez would be outta business just judging by all the crappy Metal vids featuring RG's. Dont even get me started on the Metal Zone Demos. Ya know its not that there is a complaint that bugs me..its not that some people dont like the HD. What bugs me is the absurd point of view of "SOME" of the posters and what you think you'll get out of this. I wonder how many people aren't having a problem? Doesn't matter....and what ever is going on I doubt it will be fixed cause of this thread. Anyway there's my own redundant contribution the thread. Why?..Cause its there..of course!



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by desso on 2011-02-09 17:22:42
I really don't think guitar players should have to lower their pickups or "dial out" the digital noise.

Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by edhamgtr on 2011-02-09 17:50:28

This is NOT a fractal vs. Line 6 debate.

My entire point is that I've owned and used many line 6 products and think the HD500 to be a great product - if it no longer had this problem.

Acknowledging the issue in a forthright manner and addressing it quickly and publicly garners good will from users.

The various red herring's floated out there just mean users spend more time posting youtube video's clearly demonstrating the problem and making the company look like ..... (insert adjective).

And the endless stream of "we can't duplicate the problem" is absurd.

Go pull a unit off the production line or out of the warehouse.

All I had to do was go to Guitar Center and pull out my credit card to experience the problem.

I think it important for forum members to realize that most of us have good intentions towards Line 6.

The fact that I own a fractal  doesn't put me on their "side" in any pissing contests.

Its just gear. Tools. Tools to make music, to make art, and in my case to also make a living.

The HD500 is the perfect solution for an upcoming long term gig - sans the clipping problem I ran into.

Fix it - and I'm back. The HD500 would be my tool of choice.

If someday they add the ability to load user IR's ....  (would just be a lovely addition).

If Line 6 keeps up the obfuscation I'll buy another fractal. Simple. My dollars go to the company that makes the best tool for the job.

In the end though - I find it difficult to watch a cool company that clearly has worked hard to make a great product at a viable price point begin to undermine their own cause by denying problems until it reaches critical mass.

Their are threads on this issue back in October. Youtube clips clearly demonstrating back in November. Here we are in February and they finally admit "hearing it" and try to pass it off as an authentic "feature. 

Absurd.

and sad.

It starts at the top of the line 6 management structure.

Line6Miller is likely not empowered to openly address the issue and is doing his best to wink at us while holding to the corporate position.

Seriously though, Line 6 is not Pepsi or BP. Your a small company being sustained by musicians. Drop the corporate shield mentality and treat us like the fans and freinds of your products that we in fact are.

It's 2011. There is this thing called the internet. You can't deny product issues anymore.

Your only choice is to either embrace your users or wizz all over them.

Currently it's raining on us ....

Or Line 6 could make a super cool youtube video, showing the problem, identifying what serial numbers its likley affecting , give us some temporary workarounds, and a timetable on a fix.

oh yeah, some accountant or mba will run a spread sheet, fearing massive returns, and decide that SAYING NOTHING is the better move on a spread sheet.

Even better - lets convince users that its THEIR fault, user error, move along, anyone complaining is a fractal mole .......

Mr. MBA is not factoring all of the future dollars I would have spent - and now will likely not. MBA's have a real hard time with that type of stat.

It's also why Venture Capitol funds deduct from a company's valuation for each MBA on the management team.

Short term smart - long term foolish.

I bought an HD500 - because -

My original pod worked great, my xt worked great (still working), my x3 worked great.

I post here because of the goodwill earned in those products.

Question is - does line 6 want more of my dollars?

Keep telling me that a clear product defect is my fault because my "pickups are too hot" (ridiculous), or "too close to my strings" (absurd) and my dollars flow elswhere.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by variableresults on 2011-02-09 17:51:42

amgamg wrote:

Well..you guys are amusing at this point if nothing else. Looks like maybe a dozen people at best just posting the same old same old over and over.Out of the dozen maybe three or four are really having at it. So in Internet lore..that equals thousands of thousands of sales? I doubt it. Dozens of YouTube vids showing the folly...now I'm peeing my pants. See by that standard Ibanez would be outta business just judging by all the crappy Metal vids featuring RG's. Dont even get me started on the Metal Zone Demos. Ya know its not that there is a complaint that bugs me..its not that some people dont like the HD. What bugs me is the absurd point of view of "SOME" of the posters and what you think you'll get out of this. I wonder how many people aren't having a problem? Doesn't matter....and what ever is going on I doubt it will be fixed cause of this thread. Anyway there's my own redundant contribution the thread. Why?..Cause its there..of course!

What you don't seem to realize is that people continue to post in this thread because we think Line6's answer is a load a bollocks, and rightly so.  Line6 basically told us to take a hike because this is the way the HD sounds, and that's that.  A lot of us are past our return periods and would need to sell the HD, arguably at a loss.  Is that acceptable?  No.  Line6 has our money, and I have a product with bugs that need to be worked out.  I can live with that; no product is perfect upon release, especially one that is so reliant on the underlying software. But when a supposed "feature" (a statement that is suspect as evidenced by the personal experience of many posters in this thread, as well as YouTube clips) makes a portion of the product unusable under normal conditions, then that is a problem.  And we're going to continue speaking out about it until Line6 realizes that they are approaching this issue the wrong way, and that they have already lost sales and credibility because of it.  When users go out and purchase comparable products, even at greater expense, and find that the hizz/fizz/digital clipping is gone in similar modeled tones, then that leads me, and others, to believe that Line6 is traveling down the wrong road with their responses.  What is so frustrating is that we seemingly have to bash Line6 over the head to get them to admit anything is programmatically wrong with the way the HD sounds.

"Cool stuff"?  What is that?  Will it fix the issue in this thread?  If not, why even post that?  The official Line6 statement has a lot of placebo and not much real medicine in it.  Heck, we even debunked the whole Class A/B crossover distortion argument; if the single-ended Class A Supro model, which Line6Miller assures us does not have this problem, digitally clips at 0% on the Drive knob the same as the Twin model, then I think we have a problem.  People have been posting clips of this issue since the HD was first released.

Basically, Line6 is telling us that the reason our stew tastes like crap is because it's designed to taste like crap.  Sorry to be harsh, but I'm really getting fed up with the way that Line6 treats people who have legitimate grievances on this forum.  I don't think I'm alone.

Note:  I should point out that when I'm talking about Line6, I do not mean to personally slight Line6Miller.  I realize he's just the messenger, and he's typically been more helpful than any of the other Line6 employees on this forum.  While I do wish he would have raised some flak with the "official statement" before posting it (and who knows, maybe he did?), my overall grievance is with the Line6 party line.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by amgamg on 2011-02-09 18:16:37

Ya gotta do..what ya gotta do...just tell me though..why doesnt mine do it. Why not go to a service center to fix yours?



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by edhamgtr on 2011-02-09 18:23:23

The post above is the best example of the unhelpful posts that fill this thread.

You can't "take it to a service center and fix it" if Line6 won't admit there is a problem.

They continue to deny the well documented issue that affects some users (not you luckily).

Please post in a bigger font as your current one is only twice as large and loud as normal.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by AZGdude on 2011-02-09 19:18:53

edhamgtr wrote:

I'm one of the lucky ones that makes a living playing guitar. Should I try and tell the engineer or producer that the nasty digital clipping they're getting in the booth from my HD is a new Line 6 "feature".  "It's the latest in Digital Clipping!!"  "it's a perfect model of a fender that digitally clips like no fender in history!!"


ROTFLMAO Funniest thing I have read in awhile.

However, to be fair Meambobbo suggested a workaround a few pages back, and started a new tread about it here, that seems to be working pretty well for me. By using the volume pedal workaround I was able to make some fantastic sounding Twin Reverb presents today that do not clip or have a distinct fizz/hash/white noise. Nevertheless I should point out again that ever since doing a re-setup of my guitar I have not been having a clipping problem so much as a fizz/hash/beehive/white noise problem which I believe the HD does just before clipping. Is the volume pedal workaround going to be a workable solution for everyone? Does it degrade signal and sound quality? Does it work with the HD300 and 400? I don't know these answers, but it is helping me get MUCH better sounds out of my HD500 and it will hopefully help Line 6 understand the problem and create a permanent solution.

Please Line 6, Fix the problem permanently!



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by lowyaw on 2011-02-09 23:10:37

I totally agree with everything Edhamgtr posted.

Line 6 should realize, that all the bitching comes from fact that we like their gear a LOT (big font )

It's good that we have people like Meambobbo who try to find some workaround,  but it doesn't work for me, because I want some dirt in the tone, and -12 db method only lets you have clean tone.

L6 must at least officially acknowledge the problem. As soon as they admit it - I don't care how much time (reasonably) it's going to take to fix the firmware; because it will eventually happen, anyway. If they don't, oh well, then the fix will probably come in the next version of POD



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by amgamg on 2011-02-10 03:14:23

It seems Line 6 did acknowledge the situation when Miller asked for HD's to test...but you guys backed away...makes no sense. Maybe some of you guys just don't use the POD properly. Its odd that's never an option in this debate. If you know what's wrong...why not go to a service center...show them the problem and see if it can be fixed? I did that with a ringing noise without any Internet documenting or endless belittling of a company and product line you claim to love so much. Ya know what happened? The service guy fixed my X-3L! As amazing as that sounds....that's what happened ...and my X-3 L is still alive and well! It was just that easy.   



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by desso on 2011-02-10 04:02:51

I want to chime in on a professional level.  I'm an AS9100 (Aerospace version of ISO9001) certified Quality Lead Auditor.  I am a Quality Assurance Rep for the Department of Defense and have 14 defense contractors assigned to me.  I inspect their products and authorize payment/shipment of them.  I am, in most cases their biggest customer. I've been in this capacity for 26 years and have bought everything from screws and washers to underwear to jet engines and complete retrofit/overhauls of C-130 aircraft.  Needless to say, I've been involved in a lot of new product designs, first article testing, quality systems review etc. Products I buy for our young men and women fighting for our freedom, MUST work as designed, there are NO EXCEPTIONS.  When I (the customer) have a complaint with a product, my contractors REACT IMMEDIATELY.  When a "black box" doesn't jam a radar signal completely (allowing certain frequencies through), for example, I don't nod and smile and say, "oh, OK, that's a FEATURE." I understand, we're not dealing with critical defense systems here, but a lot of young musicians are spending some serious coin on these HD Pods and should be treated like valuable customers.

carry on...



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by eejk98 on 2011-02-10 04:29:02

There seem to be a lot of frustration / sniping flying round and the discussion has been somewhat circular and at times going off on a tangent, so might be worthwhile to try to bring the discussion back to some facts:

1) The source of the clipping / fizzyness has been pretty much identified - it is in the power amp / 'full' amp section (pre-amp models do not have it)

2) The clipping does not occur just with modern high output pickups, but on a range including vintage humbuckers, P90s, and Fender single coils.  Seems that output level may not be the only driver - perhaps the frequency content is a factor too, as it appears the clipping is more obvious with bridge pickups (which are typically a lot brighter than neck).  Furthermore, the pad switch reduces the clipping somewhat, but does not fully cure it.

3) Miller and his engineering colleagues at Line 6 have so far stated the clipping observed is intentional modelling of cross-over distortion for class AB power amps (e.g. Hiwatt / Twin / Marshall / Park etc).  As long as Line 6 stands by this statement it might not be worthwhile to send an HD for testing, as currently this clipping is defined as a feature, not a problem.

4) A number of people (me included) who have played with several of the real amps the HD500 is modelling, have clearly stated they do not hear that type of breakup / clipping in the real amps, and certainly not on low drive setting (e.g. drive on 0%, which presumably should resemble a non-master volume amp on a low volume setting).  E.g. both the twin and Hiwatt are in real word able to produce nice warm cleans without clipping, on low or moderate volume settings

5) After the initial declines by the people in the thread to send thir HD units to Line 6 for inspection, the discussion trail did include at least one offer to send the HD500 for inspection, but by that point Miller had already checked with the engineers and it appears they are currently not so interested to investigate further and take people up on the offer to send one in. (Miller has been pretty silent on this thread since the statement on cross-over distortion)

6) The workaround of inserting a fixed volume pedal to reduce gain e.g. by 12dB before the amp appears to work, but takes up one FX slot and does not help the unmusical sounding breakup for those players who would like to control the amp sound from clean to mild breakup using guitar volume controls.  Also, that reduces the output volume range a fair bit, which is not ideal either.

My hypothesis is that many users have not been using HD500 with sparkly clean low drive tones with no FX processing on top, and thus may not have come across the clipping/fizzyness - this could be why some of the responses have been along the lines of 'I don't have this problem'.  Would be interesting to get a feel for how many of us have the issue.  I suggest everyone on the thread try a simple patch with a 'full' Twin / Hiwatt with default cab, at flat eq, without any additional FX, set the drive on very low, with studio/direct output, and see whether any of your guitar pickups make this clipping occur when guitar volume is fully on.  Why don't you post your results outlining at which drive % your amp starts to clip, which guitar/pickups you used, whether pad switch was on/off, and the model/firmware version of your HD? I am keen to kill off the argument for good on whether or not the clipping is an issue only with some units / some pickups.


Finally, arguments such as 'maybe you don't know how to use the HD500' are not useful when a number of people (many of whom by the sounds of things have considerable experience of amps and modellers and may even be professional musicians) have spent a lot of time tweaking their HD500 to try to eliminate the clipping and get a clean sound or the sound of an amp on the verge of breakup (which the clipping observed does not really sound like either).  Also, as Line 6 has so far said that the clipping is an intentional feature, it also makes the 'you don't know how to use it' argument somewhat irrelevant - currently the clipping is supposed to occur even when you 'know how to use it'.


Miller: Would you be able to check with the engineers again on the clipping at 0% drive, as I really do think there is an issue here, and judging by the number of views / comments on this thread, the issue is not going away either.  I'm happy to send my HD500 in for further investigation, but I am in UK - let me know if there is a UK service centre where Line 6 would like to check out what is happening, or if you'd need it in the US.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by amgamg on 2011-02-10 04:42:35

First..regardless of how I mainly use the HD..I have in fact tried to duplicate the situation as acorrding to clips posted by the ones having the problem..and mine doesnt do it.

Nothing posted here or spoken about can possible prove that user error is impossible.

Supposing the Line 6 could care less isnt the same as them caring less. Has anyone tried to get theirs fixed? Why wouldnt a service tech hear what they hear. I say this cause the description of the problem clearly wouldnt be the same as the distortion people would expect to hear. If so many folks are right ...why wouldnt it be fixable ...unless...You believe there is a conspiracy to keep a bad product on the shelf???????



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by spaceatl on 2011-02-10 04:42:38

really..thank you for doing that, I appreciate what you do. ,,Our folks certainly derserve the highest quality...I have personally witnessed Line6 taking care of a few of those folks in regards to thier gear...a pod is hardly a jet engine, but I do know that Line 6 will support folks that need support and gone over the top too..no company will ever please everyone. .I can't speak for those that choose rehash known issues and berate the company as if they are some sort of evil empire run by Darth Miller...certainly it is anyone's right say what the feel they need to say and i fully support that...jus sayin...did Line 6 fart during church or something?



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by amgamg on 2011-02-10 04:47:00

What you do is an important job and I thank you for it. Please tell me....if the little black jammer box doesnt work...do you send the maker a billion redundent emails...take it ..send to get the matter fixed...do you suppose the manufactor wont fix it cause they havent bent over to say..oh yes were a bunch of holes....do you move on and get something that works. Would I be wrong to think you'd take moves to either fix..or use another manufacter..given the above choices? Just asking..Just wondering.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by desso on 2011-02-10 05:13:52

A pilot gets shot down (worst case scenario). Everyday life - the manufacturer fixes the processes that allowed the quality escape. I've seen some manufacturers blame the user, but that never works for them and they end up "taking a s#it in their mess kit" so to speak.  If you dump on your customer, it's never a smart business move.  The first area I would look in this case, is the software.  I hope that's where the problem lies, because it's fixable and easily deployable.  The "COOL" update/whatever that's headed our way may do just that!

I play for fun and relaxation, so I'm able to find sounds that I love.  If I were doing it in front of others/for a living I would be upset.

carry on.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by lowyaw on 2011-02-10 05:50:56

amgamg wrote:

What you do is an important job and I thank you for it. Please tell me....if the little black jammer box doesnt work...do you send the maker a billion redundent emails...take it ..send to get the matter fixed...do you suppose the manufactor wont fix it cause they havent bent over to say..oh yes were a bunch of holes....

i don't want to go and get something else, as my HD500 is exactly what I need it to be.

and it's not that Line 6 guys have to bend over 

listen, i try to show as much respect to Line 6 as a manufacturer, as developers of great products - I still think POD XT was one of the most inspiring guitar purchases I have ever made - and as extremely patient human beings, in general. But I am a professional guitar player, and I have played different rigs; I still own and play a fancy midi-controlled tube Mesa rig, and a simpler Marshall rig.

If some of my amps would produce that very kind of clipping, I'd consider it going haywire, or simply being broken.

And I don't want anyone to tell me that HD500, otherwise a great "jammer box", is supposed to behave like that on purpose.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by amgamg on 2011-02-10 06:29:23

Fine...but I dont see where Line 6 said it was a great product and you were wrong. They said...send um in..you guys said hum-a-da-hum-a-da. I've played gigs when I was younger...equipment doesnt work...ya give it to who ever deals with that for you. Perhaps a soundman...roadie...tech...whatever applies.....and personally..if all they did was write the company..and complain..I'd fire them.

I'm no expert but the answer here is to ID the problem and take action...that means you...although who knows...if it really turns out to be the firmware...the lazy man approach might work for you.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by amgamg on 2011-02-10 06:36:15

The bottom line is though..you take action that resolves your issues. Also..when you play in front of people..you dont live and die by this one box. You have other gear you use or relationships with companies..stores whatever...to help you out so you dont embarrass yourself. I'm sure the government doesnt stop flying cause of one crash..or do they?



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by lowyaw on 2011-02-10 06:40:57

i see your point, my friend, but since when dumping gear to techs / roadies / whoever was a "hard-working man's approach" and trying to figure out stuff, narrow the focus and help the manufacturer improve their product - the lazy man's one? please, i am not blaming anyone. i am on L6 bandwagon.

in this particular case, i see a problem, i can't fix it, i ask for help. Here, if my humble participation can help - i'm in, too. It's 21st century, thanks to all the internet paradigm, manufacturer's get more feedback and statistics in a month that they would get in year 15 years ago. come on, let's use it



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by JerryWawak on 2011-02-10 06:41:23

Why would I send my unit in for testing if Line6 says the problem is part of the modelling?  They have "answered" this problem.  No more need for testing or troubleshooting.

This "answer" does not make me happy.   But until someone at Line6 acknowledges that there may be an actual problem there is no point.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by lowyaw on 2011-02-10 06:43:32

i dunno. may be, you're right and i have to shut up altogether.

it's just hopes that my new toy will luve up to the hype, you know.

okay, i'm outta here. silence is gold LOL 



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by JerryWawak on 2011-02-10 06:47:27

I hope yours works great for you.

I my situation the "clipping" was/is not really noticable in all instances.  When I first got it and was just scrolling through tones I did not notice it.  Even with my headphones on I did not notice it.  It was only after running the unit through the PA and also using AVIOM that I noticed it.  Then when I went back to my headphones, it was there, juts not as noticable.  But here is the kicker.  Once you hear it, you can't "Unhear" it.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by lowyaw on 2011-02-10 06:52:37

yes, it does, and no, it doesn't LOL

in this aspect - it's a cool toy and i just started discovering it. i ran it through marshall tube poweramp / marshall cab, Direct and still to test-drive it through mesa 2:90 and mesa cabs. with the marshall, fender pres and marshall pres sound quite rad. teh Park model was especially nice, and you get a sh*tload of fx and whatnot. really, 8 fx at once is overkill for me, tiwce

and as to clipping, i stumbled upon it on the second day, while trying to record stuff Direct. I really need a DI kind of modeler for recording, but I couldn't dial in a break-up tone on Fender models without hearing the crackle. i posted samples earlier in this thread. and bla-bla.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by AZGdude on 2011-02-10 06:56:23

eejk98 wrote:

6) The workaround of inserting a fixed volume pedal to reduce gain e.g. by 12dB before the amp appears to work, but takes up one FX slot and does not help the unmusical sounding breakup for those players who would like to control the amp sound from clean to mild breakup using guitar volume controls.  Also, that reduces the output volume range a fair bit, which is not ideal either.

Just to clarify, the volume pedal workaround I am using that seems to be working pretty well is to;

  1. Insert volume pedal at beginning of signal chain.
  2. Push toe down so the volume pedal is at 100% max.
  3. Reduce the max volume % till clipping and any unwanted fizz/beehive/white noise fades away. With my equipment I usually find the max volume % needs to be set somewhere between 65% and 90%.
  4. Create patch, adjust the volume pedal % max up or down as working on patch till where the amp sounds its best without clipping or noise, but the max volume % is as high as possible.
  5. Save preset and go jam.

The good thing about this workaround is you still have a working volume pedal. It just scales between 0% and whatever max % you set. The down sides are that it does not seem to work as well at taming the beehive with medium gain amps like the AC30 as it does with low gain amps, you lose 1 of your efx slots, it may impact signal/sound quality and may not work on the HD300 and HD400.

I would be interested to know if this workaround works for everyone and if anyone notices any other negitives of this approach.

I think Line 6 still needs to find a permanent solution, but hopefully this workaround will help everyone to get by until a permanent fix comes along.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by amgamg on 2011-02-10 06:59:27

Oh well like I said..Hum-a-da-hum-a-da! See ya later!



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by eejk98 on 2011-02-10 07:07:03

amgamg,


The point is, I am taking action aimed to resolve the issue.  This is a support forum, and I am posting in it to try to convince Line 6 about there being an issue with the HD modelling that needs their attention.


Line 6 has so far said the clipping is created by the power amp modelling, so therefore sending my HD500 for repair would not do much until Line 6 also believe the clipping 'feature' is not a useful one - their answer so far has been that there is no hardware fault to fix.  The purpose of my posts (and presumably those of the others who are longing for a clip-free low drive tone or musical low breakup) is to get Line 6 listening to the discussion in their support forum, hoping that eventually they will be convinced that enough people do find it impossible to get a good clean at low drive / musical breakup at moderate drive and thus recognise e.g. the 0% drive clipping as a bug.

I don't spend my time posting here to whinge, but to try to influence Line 6's HD firmware fix/enhancement priorities - I'd call that taking action, right?



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by amgamg on 2011-02-10 07:14:16

So..you called Line 6 and this what they told ya to do? I dont recall Line6 saying there wasnt a problem for some of you. Perhaps what your experiencing isnt the same as the designed clipping...how will you know though if you dont take further steps? I mean you can wait for the firmware update...but maybe thats not it. How can you tell from this thread? Arent we as consumers responsible to sometimes investagate further? 



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by Texxxxx on 2011-02-10 07:44:17

amgamg wrote:

Oh well like I said..Hum-a-da-hum-a-da! See ya later!

Why do you continue to mock people that didn't send in their HD's when Miller asked?

I responded to you earlier saying: "Why bother?  Line 6 has said they are able to reproduce the clipping we are complaining about and prefer to call it a feature of the power amps they modeled."

I have a beautiful, pristine, original 1964 Fender Super Reverb that I have owned since 1970...it doesn't sound like that at all.

In the pre models, the clipping isn't bad, and that is what I use, and it doesn't really bother me much, but in the full models it is there.  I believe it is in all the HD units, as Line 6 says that is the way they were made.  The fact that you can't hear it is more a comment on your ears than the unit itself.

You are being counter productive mocking people for not sending in units that Line 6 says are behaving normally...ie, clipping.  There is no reason to send them in.  If you remember correctly, it was after the offer was made that Line 6 said it was a feature, and it was not neccessary to send them in because they hear it, too.

I would get my hearing checked if I were you, amgamg.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by JerryWawak on 2011-02-10 07:45:32

AZGdude,  I agree, the AC30 was my go to amp on the X3 Live.  I would run it on the verge of breakup and the harder I hit my strings the better crunch I got.  The AC30 on the HD as like night and day.  Nothing like the amp I loved on the X3.  Super brittle and harsh.  Breakup is not pleasant.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by JerryWawak on 2011-02-10 07:47:26

Texxxxx wrote:

amgamg wrote:

Oh well like I said..Hum-a-da-hum-a-da! See ya later!

Why do you continue to mock people that didn't send in their HD's when Miller asked?

I responded to you earlier saying: "Why bother?  Line 6 has said they are able to reproduce the clipping we are complaining about and prefer to call it a feature of the power amps they modeled."

I have a beautiful, pristine, original 1964 Fender Super Reverb that I have owned since 1970...it doesn't sound like that at all.

In the pre models, the clipping isn't bad, and that is what I use, and it doesn't really bother me much, but in the full models it is there.  I believe it is in all the HD units, as Line 6 says that is the way they were made.  The fact that you can't hear it is more a comment on your ears than the unit itself.

You are being counter productive mocking people for not sending in units that Line 6 says are behaving normally...ie, clipping.  There is no reason to send them in.  If you remember correctly, it was after the offer was made that Line 6 said it was a feature, and it was not neccessary to send them in because they hear it, too.

I would get my hearing checked if I were you, amgamg.

+1



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by AZGdude on 2011-02-10 07:55:50

Texxxxx wrote:

Why do you continue to mock people that didn't send in their HD's when Miller asked?

I responded to you earlier saying: "Why bother?  Line 6 has said they are able to reproduce the clipping we are complaining about and prefer to call it a feature of the power amps they modeled."

I have a beautiful, pristine, original 1964 Fender Super Reverb that I have owned since 1970...it doesn't sound like that at all.

Furthermore, multiple people have either had more than one HD500 or exchanged their HD500 for a new one only to get the exact same problem. This makes it EXTREMELY likely that all HD500's have this problem but it is more audible with certain guitars/pickups and it is most likely a software issue.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by meambobbo on 2011-02-10 08:00:23

amgamg,

do me a favor.  put a studio EQ as the first block in your effects chain.  set the gain to +12 db.  set your amp to the bf twin "full" with default cab and EQ settings (or set them to noon...it doesn't matter).  set your drive to 20-40%.  set your pickup selector to the bridge pickup.  set your looper in the post position.  hit record on the looper and strum as hard as possible directly over the bridge pickup.  press play on the looper.  you should hear the clipping we're getting.  if you don't, MAYBE this problem is limited to certain units.

yet I doubt it.  Several people have swapped out their units and had the same experience.  So either they have terrible luck, or this isn't a unit-specific issue.

please stop insinuating that Line 6 said they'd like one of us to send in their units and no one took them up on it.  I said that I would, as well as a couple other people - go back and read the thread.  You'll notice that there was no response from Line 6 for a few days, then Miller said he'd give us an update later, then he said that the sound designers said the clipping is a feature, but that there were some cool updates coming.  So in actuality, there wasn't an offer for us to send back units demonstrating the problem.  Once that announcement was made, it was clear Line 6 didn't want or need to receive any units, because officially they're not defective.  If Miller comes back on this thread and says that clipping at 0% drive IS probably a bug, and that he'd like someone to send a unit in, I assure you we will take him up on it.

This is different from using an authorized repair center.  In any case, that solution is not costless, and it is risky.  For one, you lose time with a working unit.  Some people don't live near one and would have to pay shipping.  Some people don't even have one in their country.  Some people may be out of warranty for whatever reason, making such repairs more expensive.  And more than likely, there's nothing to repair.  So after all the time, effort, and money spent to fix the problem, you get nothing out of it.  If Line 6 clarified the nature of the problem, for instance saying that it's designed to distort at 0% drive under certain conditions, or that it's never supposed to distort at 0% drive, then at least people would have some idea if their unit had a defect that could be repaired.

Your hardline stance on this issue is a joke.  Everyone here having the problem clearly knows how to use their Pod.  This is not about output modes, or making patches with lots of effects.  The issue is clear as day.  It only happens with "full" amp models, using ANY cabinet/mic, and REGARDLESS of output mode.  It CAN be dialed out.  This indicates the problem is more than likely a software issue.  There are tons of clips demonstrating the issue.

So you really have no business telling us we're making things up, idiots, or refusing to handle this properly.  You are just being antagonistic.  If you're not going to be helpful and civil, take a hike.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by AZGdude on 2011-02-10 08:04:48

I think Line 6 really needs to get on top this problem quickly and stop ignoring it or trying to sweep it under the carpet. This thread will soon surpass 16,000 views and is continually being mentioned as a problem on other websites like TGP. The cats out of the bag. Enough people are having this problem that it is a real problem. Ignoring it or trying to sweep it under the carpet is only damaging your image at this point. Just my 2 cents.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by meambobbo on 2011-02-10 08:05:27

Also, some people have said the workarounds posted are not viable because if you use -12 db, you can't get clipping.  Well...don't use -12 db then.  Use -9, -6, -3...whatever amount puts you in a good range, so that you feel the breakup occurs on the "correct" of drive.

The best solution was posted above, just slowly move your volume pedal down from 100% until you've defeated the clipping, then set that level as the max.  Then if you want some breakup, just turn up the drive knob a little.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by amgamg on 2011-02-10 08:14:58

You can test my hearing from a website??? Do I owe you a co-pay???? It seems you never heard that joke about the guys asking god to help um from drowning in a row boat...so never mind...maybe a firmware update will help. If that doesnt help...You can go on making accusations that dont .



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by amgamg on 2011-02-10 08:23:23

Tried your fix thing...and not only doent it clip before or after...it didnt clip when I turned off the EQ and was sitting there with a 12db boost at 40% gain. Of course I'm not listening hard enough.

Next....who exactly are you to tell me to take a hike. I've been nothing but reasonable and have done nothing more than not agree with you. I never called you any of the names you claim I did...didnt happen.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by Texxxxx on 2011-02-10 08:27:29

amgamg wrote:

You can test my hearing from a website??? Do I owe you a co-pay???? It seems you never heard that joke about the guys asking god to help um from drowning in a row boat...so never mind...maybe a firmware update will help. If that doesnt help...You can go on making accusations that dont .

I am merely saying that apparently you are the only one that can't hear the digital clipping, as even Line 6 themselves acknowledge that it is there.  They just have a different name for it.

I will stop feeding the amgamg Troll, now.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by amgamg on 2011-02-10 08:29:59

Now I'm a troll...interesting...hey tell me something? If ya break a guitar string..do ya change it or wait for a new one to grow back?



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by Nick_Mattocks on 2011-02-10 08:37:34

Guys - please let's keep things civil    Bickering is not going to resolve whatever the issues are for some and aren't for others.  It's clear that these issues don't affect everyone, but that doesn't mean that those of you that are believe you are experiencing a problem don't have a problem

This thread has 450+ responses including some from Line 6.   It would be hard for anyone who comes to this forum to miss this particular thread, so I am certain that Line 6 are fully aware of what the issues seem to be and I'm equally certain that the developers will be aware of any concerns too.  That being the case, I am certain given their previous track record that they will be looking into the potential issues and potential solutions that will keep everyone as happy as possible. 

Line 6 never or at least rarely discuss their plans publicly for existing or future products, so given Rick Miller's comment about upcoming Cool stuff, I think we all need to exercise a little patience and wait to see what comes down the chute in the next and subsequent firmware releases.  The next firmware release will be ready whenever it's ready.  It's highly unlikely that any kind of ETA on that release will be issued.

Nick



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by meambobbo on 2011-02-10 09:45:38

amgamg wrote:

Tried your fix thing...and not only doent it clip before or after...it didnt clip when I turned off the EQ and was sitting there with a 12db boost at 40% gain. Of course I'm not listening hard enough.

Next....who exactly are you to tell me to take a hike. I've been nothing but reasonable and have done nothing more than not agree with you. I never called you any of the names you claim I did...didnt happen.

I'm trying to figure out from this post if you did what I asked (you should have had ONE studio eq ON BEFORE the amp with the gain set to +12 db).  It sounds like you did, but still didn't get clipping.  Maybe this issue is confined to specific units.  Could you please post what guitar you used, and which pickups it has?  Can you describe your action?  Were you hearing some fret buzz when you were strumming loudly?  Finally, did you listen to a recording of your playing, either via the looper or external software, or did you just listen while you were playing?  If just listening while playing, are you sure your volume was high enough, so that your speakers clearly overpowered the natural sound of your guitar?

I told you to take a hike IF you continued to tell people they're idiots or idealists and not offer any substance to this thread.  There have been some people who tried to make this thread about output modes, etc.  That's not what we are having trouble with.  We're clearly only experiencing problems with a few "full" amp models, and we have provided documented evidence of this.  We are trying to determine if this is a hardware defect specific to certain units, a software bug, or a purposeful product design.  Denying the problem or suggesting we're ignoring obvious solutions is simply incorrect.

Being able to dial it out suggests to us that it's a software issue.  If you (or anyone else who has not experienced the issue) cannot dial it in, maybe it is indeed a hardware issue.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by kevmomuny on 2011-02-10 11:53:16

I think that we all want what is advertised.

according to http://line6.com/podhd/hdmodels.htmlwe should have the following...

"Revolutionary HD modeling.

Colorful clean tones that sparkle and sing with dizzying levels of  detail. Dial back your guitar volume to get sweet-spot breakup from  warm, earthy crunch tones. Line 6 HD amp models feel, behave and sound  like no others. They contain up to 10 times more amplifier DNA than our  previous modeling for a playing experience that can only be described as  HD."

I think most of us believe that Line 6 will provide just that... After a firmware update...

This box, touted as part of their  'flagship' line.  It does a TON of awesome stuff. Most of us would be  fortunate to utilize 20% of its capabilities.  But this problem is a  real issue for most of the people posting in this thread. Although it is  wonderful that one or two folks are not experiencing the issue and that  others have found a semi-suitable work around for it, the rest of us  want a solution that does not involve turning off half the HD modeling.  We want this thing to model a whole amp.  Not just a pre-amp. That is what we paid for.

'Please enjoy your new Ferrari.  As a new 'feature' we have included  poor performance when all 12 cylinders are used.  If you keep the  throttle below about 20%,  you won't really notice it.  The problem goes  away completely when you run only 6 cylinders.  Enjoy.'



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by amgamg on 2011-02-10 11:55:32

Read carefully..cause you seem not to at times....I never called anyone an idiot..or an idealist. I'd also like to know who made you the judge of substance in any topic? Quite frankly..if your only now checking for string buzz...your still poopin' yellow ! IMO of course!



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by meambobbo on 2011-02-10 12:29:33

amgamg,

i say idiot because you've said in one post that anyone experiencing problems probably does not know how to work the Pod.

i say idealist because you've said that anyone expecting line 6 to fix their issue because they post on a support forum is a waste of time.

nobody made me anything, but i have done research and posted what i've learned.  i've tried to be very specific and have shared my method to dial out the clipping.  you can judge me however you like; i'm sure most people here would judge me to be civil (most of the time) and occasionally helpful.

i am the judge of my own subjective opinions.  and i judge your posts to be unclear, antagonizing, repetitive, dismissive, and ignorant.  you could have answered my questions, which would contribute substance IMO, but chose not to.  even the clips you've posted seem to completely miss the main points of this thread, which state that the clipping becomes apparent when you strum loudly.  as far as i can tell, your clips have mild, if any, heavy strumming.  and i don't believe any of your clips feature the "full" blackface twin model, which is the main clean amp that most posters have reported problems with.

"if your only now checking for string buzz...your still poopin' yellow"  see, i don't know what the hell this even means.  it seems like a veiled sneer.  i'm not sure how a single post you've made in this thread could be considered helpful.  i'm not sure what YOU hope to accomplish by continuing to chime in here.  you keep belittling us for keeping this thread going, saying that no good can come of it.  what is YOUR motivation?  my only answer is that you are a troll, who enjoys antagonizing people while they are frustrated and confused.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by kevmomuny on 2011-02-10 12:35:32

Amen brother.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by amgamg on 2011-02-10 13:06:09

Your the judge of you ..until your judging me....so that means your less than honest. I said none of the things you said I said. That is you reading into my words..most likely based on your own insecurity. The pooping yellow comment means..in the end you don't know squat! You want to brand me a troll cause it suits your purpose. I'm gonna laugh as the next update comes out. If you still think your hearing fizz...its gonna be wild to hear your accusations than. If its not hardware and others aren't getting the fizz...you know what that means don't ya...go ahead read into it. See if I care. Who knows..maybe they'll suck the life out of the models so you'll be happy. For all I know ..you dont even own an HD. Maybe your the troll...yeah..I'll do like you do...your the troll..cya troll!



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by arcticman on 2011-02-10 13:10:41

+1

kevmomuny wrote:

Amen brother.

Really,  amgamg...  give it a rest



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by spaceatl on 2011-02-10 13:16:56

"You are part of the rebel alliance and a traitor. Take her away!"

<a target=new href=http://www.byjaimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/Leia-Darth-Vader.jpg"class="jive-image" src="http://www.byjaimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/Leia-Darth-Vader.jpg"/>

kid: “Mommy! That black guy is my evil emeny.”

dad: “Do you know the black guy’s name?”

did: “Um, no.”

dad: “Darth Vader.”

kid: “Vart Vader is my evil emeny.”

dad: “Not Vart Vader, Darth Vader.”

kid: “Dart Laser is my evil emeny.”

dad: “Darth Vader is your evil enemy?”

kid: “Yeah.”

mom: “I thought it was Dark Laser.”



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by cGil on 2011-02-10 13:52:15

Gil...



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by meambobbo on 2011-02-10 13:53:14

If you were actually trying to be helpful, as you suggest, you'd answer my simple questions i asked about how you tested the blackface twin "full" model.

you have consistently said something along the lines of "i'm not getting the clipping, so it must be a few bad units or user error."  all experience suggests otherwise.

it seems like you're not actually even reading other people's posts.  up until a few hours ago, you thought that no one had opted to try to send their unit to Line 6.  after about 5 responses explaining that Miller wasn't seeking such units for testing after getting official word from the sound designers that the clipping was an intentional feature, you stopped bringing this up; but it seems only half the idea sunk in.  You then proceeded to suggest that if people don't want the clipping, all they have to do is bring their unit to a repair center.  yet if this is an intentional feature, as Miller's statement seems to confirm, how can it be repaired?!  if it's unit specific, why are multiple users having issues across multiple units?  moreover, why would Miller withdraw the offer to bring some of the units in for testing.  why the silence from line 6?

i am judging you and have been up front about that - if anything i'm honest.  everyone judges others.  i don't get your point about me judging you.

you didn't even explain your sting buzzing - yellow poop comment.  just said it means i don't know squat - i don't see the correlation.  are you saying i don't know squat because i'm turning my research towards seeing how string buzzing impacts the clipping?  even more to the point, how does yellow poo mean a lack of knowledge?  i really can't follow your logic.  it's like you forget to type every other sentence.

it's not just me calling you troll; it's quite a few people.  yet you're the only person calling me a troll.  let your brain process that for a while.  did it come to the conclusion that maybe you're behaving like a troll?  probably not.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by Mrwonka on 2011-02-10 14:04:55

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz  is the new firmware out yet?

waiting waiting waiting.

line6 mods, tell us when it comes out or else!!!



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by spaceatl on 2011-02-10 14:13:55

I feel like that little kid in the Super Bowl commerical (The best one this year I think)...



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by amgamg on 2011-02-10 14:15:58

Your making your own reality here..save it  for some who cares. There you got your way...I crown you King Of The Cry Babies!



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by cGil on 2011-02-10 14:25:38

No need to search for it or start a new preset from scratch.  I'd suggest simply calling up the basic stripped down BF Double factory patch.  The hash is in there.

Oh, and fwiw, my pickups can't be lowered any more than they already are or they fall off the end of the adjustment screws.  Seriously, I only have a couple screw threads keeping my neck P94 from falling out!   I hate the magnetic tug that pulls 'em out of tune, and I prefer a brighter tone, so I keep 'em lower than Gibson pickup height specs. 

As far as repairs go, it was just tough beans for me.  Line 6 didn't even offer to seriously look into this until the day after I gave up my HD500, so it's just too little too late to check mine out for hardware problems.  They'll have to wait till whoever buys mine to start whining about the hash of digital distortion in the models.  Then maybe they'll get it in for repair.  If my local Guitar Center keeps it on the floor as a demo, it's not gonna help POD sales; that's for sure.

But the end result of 3 months of fussing with the POD HD500 is that trading it in put seriously good new hardware on my ever evolving pedalboard, and the bar (of tone quality) has definitely been raised once again.   Line 6 is gonna have to do some very serious bug stomping and fine tuning to be able to match the quality of tones I've got now.  Especially if they want to give me the GAS necessary to try again and buy another HD500.   I wish 'em luck, cuz my once again 100% anolog signal path to my tube tone has never sounded better!   Thanks Line 6. 

Gil...



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by JerryWawak on 2011-02-10 14:33:22

Don't feed the troll

troll.jpg



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by jeff5x0 on 2011-02-10 15:17:58

Reality is alot of people have this issue with the Pod. Its not just a few anymore. Line 6 says its a feature. Which isnt an acceptable answer for many. This thread is huge. People looking for help from other members, or info from Line 6. People have offered to send in their units. Honest hard working people who have shelled out 550 bucks on a piece of gear that does not work properly for them. You have the nerve to try to make them out to be liars and insult them. I dont understand why you keep posting here? You have had little if any help to offer. When you posted in the X3 threads did people help you or belittle you? You're not helping anyone here, so again why do you keep posting? Do you like the attention?

I come to this thread to see if any new info has been provided and all I see is you taking aim at people. Why?

Meambobbo, I appreciate all the testing and info you have provided. You are certainly a help to this thread and this community.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by kevmomuny on 2011-02-10 15:20:52

Troll.jpg



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by amgamg on 2011-02-10 15:43:24

You just want to believe what you want just like the others...I called no one a liar...nor made fun of anyone. Your slammin me though..cause you figure its feeding time. I guess I hit a nerve pointing out some things that you folks in here want to ignore...one not everyone has a problem...very few seem to at all. When you guys had the chance you were all nothing but a bunch of excuses. You guys refused to do anything except sit here and complain. So now you wanna sit here and complain and pick me apart. Thats something I didnt do to anyone. I guess you just cant have a conversation unless your agreed with . So here..your right..oh your so right...your the rightest of the right...OMG!!!! you are right....feel better now! I'll even make it better for ya ....oh yuck that POD is terrible..oh my..who'd want a POD...lets all sit here and yak about our horrible POD's. Boy oh boy..that Line 6 has a nerve...who would dare to ever even like anything ...oh no we love Line 6...we love to ream um...hows that???? Can ya live now? Now go tell it to someone who gives a damn. Piss off kid!



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by catalano on 2011-02-10 15:48:35

amgamg = ignore



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by spaceatl on 2011-02-10 16:05:11



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by kevmomuny on 2011-02-10 16:10:29

Rodney King for the win!



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by jeff5x0 on 2011-02-10 16:22:33

First off, not a kid. 42 yrs old here. Secondly, I never slammed the Pod. If you look at Gear Page I recommend it to those looking in that price range. I never slammed it here either. Thirdly never said you called anyone in particular a liar. I said you were making people out to be a liar. The offer for the Pod to be sent in was out for two days. I took mine back for reasons I explained earlier. Others came on here and offered to submit theirs. I didnt pick you apart at all. I asked simple questions. I asked why you are still posting here, when you clearly arent helping? Alot of others have asked the same question.....which you refuse to answer, but instead call people cry babies and insult them. It appears youre the one who has a hard time having a conversation with people. I have gotten along fine with everyone here. Even the ones that are not having the problem. I have been very civil about it.

Ill sum up my point by quoting you......"Now go tell it to someone who gives a damn. **** off kid!" You dont care so why are you still posting here? Im just curious.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by spaceatl on 2011-02-10 16:30:23

lol! I wasn't trying to be a smarta$$..I just am...

anyhoo, this passionate debate is a positive thing no matter how negative the emotion might be for some or several getting into a tussle over whatever...It means that we are human and actually give a crap...that's a positive I see in this...



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by amgamg on 2011-02-10 16:32:38

Sure...give me the money he got...I'll even let you beat me up!



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by amgamg on 2011-02-10 16:34:38

Didnt I just make you right..what more could you want. BTW...if a number of the most recent post arent direct slams against me nothing is. Sorry but I stick up for myself...its that simple.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by kevmomuny on 2011-02-10 16:35:07

spaceatl wrote:

lol! I wasn't trying to be a smarta$$..I just am...

Me too.  Anyways, it's way better than being a dumb one.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by kevmomuny on 2011-02-10 16:38:38

lime-cat.jpg



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by spaceatl on 2011-02-10 16:43:54

<a target=new href=http://www.webpulp.org/wp-content/uploads/2007/04/5414660_8716bf615a.jpghttp://www.webpulp.org/wp-content/uploads/2007/04/5414660_8716bf615a.jpg"class="jive-image" src="http://www.webpulp.org/wp-content/uploads/2007/04/5414660_8716bf615a.jpghttp://www.webpulp.org/wp-content/uploads/2007/04/5414660_8716bf615a.jpg"/>alt="http://www.webpulp.org/wp-content/uploads/2007/04/5414660_8716bf615a.jpg"class="jive-image" src="http://www.webpulp.org/wp-content/uploads/2007/04/5414660_8716bf615a.jpg"/>



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by kevmomuny on 2011-02-10 16:52:01

Not pancake bunny!facepalm.jpg



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by spaceatl on 2011-02-10 17:04:59

Spock Smoking.jpg



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by desso on 2011-02-10 17:53:50

<a target=new href=http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx29/dessothumbs/small_violin.jpg"class="jive-image" src="http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx29/dessothumbs/small_violin.jpg"/>don't make me play this thing!



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by timowens on 2011-02-10 17:58:20

desso wrote:

<a target=new href=http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx29/dessothumbs/small_violin.jpg"class="jive-image" src="http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx29/dessothumbs/small_violin.jpg"/>don't make me play this thing!

You know what, I don't care which side of the argument you are on, that right there is funny



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by kevmomuny on 2011-02-10 18:06:00

yes indeed.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by cGil on 2011-02-10 18:09:21

Mouse pushup.gif



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by kevmomuny on 2011-02-10 18:12:32

I never thought I would say this publicly, but....

World's smallest violin.JPG

Mine is smaller...



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by alfaphlex on 2011-02-10 19:17:04

wow... did you guys really have to give in to the troll? Most likely, this long running thread, which I and others find very useful for diagnosing/discussing the problem, will get closed because of all the childish behavior.

Having said that, is there any "ignore" function on these forums? There are a number of users whose post I find absolutely useless and most times just serve as nothing more than flame bait.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by variableresults on 2011-02-10 20:40:57

alfaphlex wrote:

wow... did you guys really have to give in to the troll? Most likely, this long running thread, which I and others find very useful for diagnosing/discussing the problem, will get closed because of all the childish behavior.

Having said that, is there any "ignore" function on these forums? There are a number of users whose post I find absolutely useless and most times just serve as nothing more than flame bait.

There is the "report abuse" button if you think someone is trolling or deliberately stirring the pot.  As much as I enjoy a bit of fun, I agree that it would be much more useful to stay on topic.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by timowens on 2011-02-10 20:41:19

kevmomuny wrote:

I never thought I would say this publicly, but....

World's smallest violin.JPG

Mine is smaller...

You know what, I don't care which side of the argument you are on, that right there is funnier than the last one



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by timowens on 2011-02-10 20:53:34

There is the "report abuse" button if you think someone is trolling or deliberately stirring the pot.  As much as I enjoy a bit of fun, I agree that it would be much more useful to stay on topic.

Look at the bright side, all of those silly post have helped to keep this thread at the top of the 'Popular Discussions' list, where everyone will see that it is the number one topic on this forum.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by kevmomuny on 2011-02-10 23:30:51

This thread stopped being helpful about 100 posts ago.    A lot of heat and not much light.  It was becoming a shouting match with no real info.  A few of us thought it was time for a little levity.  Feel free to return to the ad hominem attacks and recrimination. I myself will retire to the parlor to drink beer and play a little Texas hold'em with pancake bunny.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by lowyaw on 2011-02-11 01:16:04

.cats copy.jpg



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by lowyaw on 2011-02-11 01:17:24

todd_oath.jpg



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by dftpunk on 2011-02-11 01:56:25

Anyone who cannot understand and appreciate the nuances of these classic amps should stick with the modern amp models and leave these classic to those who know how to use them.

Crusty I'm dissapointed in you. You're all going the wrong way. Gimme a real VOX and I will do the same settings there as I do on my POD and you'll see it's not clipping I bet.
We're talking now about lack in PWRAMP modelling as PRE model works just fine and I enjoy every nuance of its classic tone as you said. But please don't say that THIS HORRIBLE CLIPPING is a classic tone nuance I beg you.


2amgamg
Dude please stop flooding in the topic. If you don't have such problem - be glad you don't have it. But posting offtop messages, funny pics and pointless philosophizing doesn't help to resolve the problem.
Sorry but you were out of this theme since 20th page. You're the only troll in this theme. If you dont care (as you said) please leave a topic.

Looks like line6 guys closed their eyes regarding the problem.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by lowyaw on 2011-02-11 02:38:40

dftpunk wrote:

Looks like line6 guys closed their eyes regarding the problem.

I don't think so; while L6 is clearly a business project, operated for profit, I have good faith in them as fellow guitar players and developers of advanced guitar technology. I only hope, that the fix we're looking for does not require some kind of massive re-writing of the modelling algorythm; the cure has to be price-effective for L6 as a business, otherwise they won't do it, and we're screwed 



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by dftpunk on 2011-02-11 02:57:26

ha-ha!)) I hope they fix this issue in the next firmware release but won't mentioned this convincing that the modelling algorithms still the same



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by desso on 2011-02-11 04:08:40

<a target=new href=http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx29/dessothumbs/MJF.jpg"class="jive-image" src="http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx29/dessothumbs/MJF.jpg"/>

Hey, DOC!!! Come here!  I can hear the harsh digital fizzy clipping!!



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by meambobbo on 2011-02-11 08:14:35

Ok, I actually have a real update.

String buzz makes NO impact whatsoever.  I stuck a pen under my 4th fret, guaranteeing the string couldn't hit the frets no matter how hard I played.  I got the same clipping as usual.

I decided yesterday to read through all 16 pages of posts on the Gear Page thread that was linked to earlier.  They didn't seem to get as far as us.  They identified it was the power amp that caused the problems like us, but they never posted any workarounds.

What they did have a lot more of, however, was people chiming in about whether or not they got the clipping and what pickups they used to do so.  And after reading all that, I have come to the conclusion that some Pod HD's are much more sensative to clipping than others.  It's like there are two versions - one is near-clipping at 0% drive, the other requires the drive to be at least up to 40% to get clipping.

Pickup output only masks the problem.  If you have a "dirty" unit, but are using low output single coils, you might not get clipping - if you use different pickups or boost their levels before the amp stage, however, you can get clipping.  But it seems the "clean" units will not demonstrate clipping at any low gain setting, even if you have super hot humbuckers.  In contrast, some users are getting clipping, even with vintage single coils, P90's, and other low output pickups.  If some people can get clipping with low output pickups, while others can't when using super hot pickups, this tells me there's a unit to unit variance.

So I don't think this is a firmware issue, but a hardware issue.  Firmware could help fix it, as ultimately you can defeat the clipping via software; but ultimately, if we want the two variants of the Pod hardware to work exactly the same, Line 6 would have to make 2 versions of each firmware release.  And I am assuming there are two variants, which might not be true.  The sensitivity to clipping might be across a continuum.  But I would assume two variants, because most people are either definitely having the problem or definitely not.

Now, it's difficult for me to come to this conclusion, since people have swapped out Pod's and still had the problem; and as far as I know, the two variants of Pod HD's have never been in the same room together - there have been no A/B comparisons.  On the Gear Page thread, it seemed like 30-50% of the posters had the problem, while 50-70% did not.  So I don't think this is a few defective units.  I think it's a massive fraction of the Pod HD's on the market.  Someone ____ up big time on this one.

I'm going to go to my local Guitar Center soon and see if I can find an HD that does not experience this problem.

For people who are having this issue, I recommend you swap out your Pod with your vendor, as many times as necessary to find a "clean" unit.

Line 6's silence on this issue suggests they have no intention of fixing this, or at least announcing there's a problem.  To do so would invite tons of negative feedback as the product builds critical mass.  It would also invite tons of current customers to attempt to honor their warranty, which I'm guessing Line 6 views as "too costly". I'm curious to know if someone can have this problem repaired under warranty at an authorized repair center.  This would confirm that the above is true.  If someone does so, please let us know; so that we can begin the tsunami of returns/repairs.

I'll need to get two units in the same room, A/B'ed clearly demonstrating there is a difference between units before I'm 100% convinced of my above theory.  But unless a large number of people on the internet are lying just for fun, I have a hard time accepting any other conclusion.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by Mrwonka on 2011-02-11 12:34:22

crazy stuff bro.  This is going to get ugly if what your saying is correct.  we need verification that it is a hardware issue.  I guess I will go to guitar center this weekend if I have time since I have a 2 year warrenty and swap it.


thanks for your awesome input with this topic.  Line6 would be lucky to have a guy like you working for them!



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by jeff5x0 on 2011-02-11 13:24:24

Thanks for the update meambobbo. You have really put alot into this. I dont think Line 6's silence means they are not going to fix it, or check into it though. If you look at their track record, they have been pretty good about fixing things. This being their flagship modeler, leads me to believe their silence indicates maybe they are buying some time to try to find out whats going on. I know most of us werent happy with the message Miller relayed. I dont think this is the end of it. I certainly hope not anyways. I dont have any intention of getting another Pod though until this problem is acknowledged though. So hopefully others out there will have success with getting one that works properly. I hope you can find one too meambobbo. I would love to see a video a/b comparison. Thanks again for all of your work and dedication to this issue.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by meambobbo on 2011-02-11 14:51:41

being primarily a metal player, i didn't really think of this as an issue that truly concerns me.  and with the workaround, it really doesn't...directly at least.

however, the more successful this product is, the more resources will be devoted to making it even better.  i have a good amount of faith in line 6.  hopefully, this is something we can all look back upon and laugh at how worked up we got.  again, most of my frustration is based upon some of the comments here that try to downplay that this is an issue, not line 6's support.  while i wish line 6 had better communication with its customers, i don't think they suck by any means.

if anyone reads through that TheGearPage thread, it should be apparent that user experiences are too varied to be explained simply by pickups and guitar output levels.  on this thread it seems most people having the issue had high output pickups while most people not having the issue are using lower output pickups, with a few notable exceptions.  over there, it's a different story.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by FishTail on 2011-02-11 15:22:07

Thanks for the posts Meambobbo.  This has been driving my crazy as well...both with single coil Lollars and Humbuckers.  I've also swapped for a new unit with the retailer but have the same issue.  You just can't seem to turn the drive up very far without the clipping.  I'm writing this just to log the complaint with hopes that this gets resolved.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by jeff5x0 on 2011-02-11 20:10:30

You are in the same boat as I was in my friend. Good luck. I honestly hope you get a unit that will work for you.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by whiteop on 2011-02-11 20:54:49

seems like they need to make the HD500 in two different versions - a version for "clean" players and another for metal players



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by Texxxxx on 2011-02-11 21:17:43

Nice investigative work, meambobo.  It is hard to discount the information you have sifted through and presented in an organized, intelligent manner.

I am hoping you are wrong about there being two different versions, and the difference being hardware related, but I can certainly understand the points you make, and they make sense to me.

I am on my second HD500, and it is the same as the first.  Full BF starts clipping at about 40% drive and is fizzy by 100% drive.  BF Pre sounds very good.  I can deal with this as I am running into a Mesa 50/50 stereo power amp and don't use the fulls, and I am just using the HD for live.  It sounds awesomely great going into the DT50 4x12 that I modded to stereo for dual amp patches.

Thanks for your great compilation of facts.  I do like the HD500 a lot...getting great metal tones that are all based on the ones you posted.  I still find myself going to the very first batch that you posted....the ones that are really LOUD...lol.

I think in the long run it will all work out; hoping it will end up being firmware related, and have had faith in Line 6 for a long time and continue to do so.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by Mrwonka on 2011-02-11 22:36:30

ya, the more I think about it I believe that most of the units are the same.  Some are faulty, but its stuff like the lcd going out or something like that.  The clipping issue all depends on guitar.

like I said way way ealier.  all line6 needs to do i add a fx box or something that just tweaks the clipping for certain guitars.  most people wont have to use it, but for the peeps who have the issue, they can just add a little device that fixes it.  wouldn't be nothing more but a firmware update that isn't universal, but an option.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by telecaster3 on 2011-02-12 05:30:28

*deleted because double*



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by telecaster3 on 2011-02-13 08:05:22

Hi Y'all,

I'll not mingle in the 'discussion' of few but just affirm my hearings (and those of many)

I play guitar for almost 40 years and started with a VOX AC30. I like clean (chorus, pitch shifted) sounds a lot. I play on a Tele '83 with (Mike Stern) humbuckers '59 en tele hotrail from seymour duncan and a '76 strat with original SC's and a humbucker in bridge position.  A top Helmut Hanika classical guitar with LR Baggs piezo and mic: sounds great with the HD BTW)

Also I am an E-engineer, understanding analogue electronics, tube amps, etc..   I'm Dutch BTW

I regret receiving my HD500 on feb 2,  experienced some issues and just now reading this discussion.

A couple of days ago I started constructing patches, starting with clean amp configuration.

Although I have got fine adjusted guitars and never experience string buzz I first heared something like that but no: It was definatly no string buzz.

With the drive of the AC30 to 0% still this sizzle sound. I'm doing something wrong I thought so I tried to avoid it by not using an amp for clean sound (mmm, odd i thought)

Today I started reading and now..

I join the club: There's something wrong, it's no tube like at all, it's ugly (transistor/digital fault). At repair they would declare me insane I believe so I wait for Line6 to come up with a believable fix. Otherwise I fear my line6 story starts and will end here.

Don't get me wrong: I love the HD concept and I trust Line6 to solve it.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by Mrwonka on 2011-02-13 09:34:50

glad to have you aboard bro.  The more people that can contribute to this thread, the better chance line6 will address the issue.  I think its clear that this is on line6, and they should be professionals and fix it.  get it done guys!



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by estringwalker on 2011-02-13 10:21:11

Just wanted to speak up and say that Ive returned my HD500 a few months ago due to this issue. I was hearing the same harshness that has been described here... I was really bummed.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by AZGdude on 2011-02-13 12:30:05

Hello Everyone,

I updated the first post in this thread to try and summarize this issue. If there is anything that I missed please let me know and I will add it.

AZGdude



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by dftpunk on 2011-02-13 12:42:58

I join the club:

I'm glad to hear this from a reliable person like you. So we're not insane and our guitars is all right!   

By the way guys I don't know what about you but I've already posted a product feedback with a short info and link to this thread to Line6's support.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by jeff5x0 on 2011-02-13 18:20:08

Welcome telecaster 3. Hey AZ thanks for updating the first page. Good work!



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by AZGdude on 2011-02-13 20:03:29

Deleted



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by timowens on 2011-02-13 20:16:15

AZGdude wrote:

AZGdude wrote:

Hello Everyone,

I updated the first post in this thread to try and summarize this issue. If there is anything that I missed please let me know and I will add it.

AZGdude

Unbelievable!!!!

So much for the idea that this is an open forum that is not policed and edited by Line 6. I spent an hour or two trying to summarize the findings of this tread into the first post so it is more easily digested. 8 hours after posting a summary it has been removed and replaced with my original post. Line 6 is clearly trying to cover this up and sweep it under the carpet instead of addressing it. Extremely disappointing. This probably marks my first and LAST Line 6 product!

Actually, I've had that problem several times in my List Of Bugs thread, I don't think Line6 is editing your thread, I think it's a quirk in the forum. I think it has something to do with the feature that saves an edit to a thread if you leave it without saving it. I haven't figured out exactly what causes this to happen, but try your edit again, it should work.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by meambobbo on 2011-02-13 20:18:05

yeah, that's happened to me to on edits.  not intentional censorship but a pain in the ass.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by telecaster3 on 2011-02-13 23:47:52

timowens wrote:

Actually, I've had that problem several times in my List Of Bugs thread, I don't think Line6 is editing your thread, I think it's a quirk in the forum. I think it has something to do with the feature that saves an edit to a thread if you leave it without saving it. I haven't figured out exactly what causes this to happen, but try your edit again, it should work.

I had the same thing with my first post in this thread, so AZGdude: maybe try again

(BTW managing forum software isn't rocketscience anymore is it?)



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by dftpunk on 2011-02-14 00:10:35

AZGdude I think it would be helpful to have a local copy of the post for example in notepad. So you will be able to restore your message again at any time.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by dbarabe on 2011-02-14 06:21:42

Hi AZGdude,

Looks like your update on the first page disappeared again...  I've seen it about 30 minutes ago, and was about to use your link for the product feedback, but it's now gone...

Was well done before it.  Hope you save it somewhere to repost it.

dbarabe



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by AZGdude on 2011-02-14 06:24:15

timowens wrote:

Actually, I've had that problem several times in my List Of Bugs thread, I don't think Line6 is editing your thread, I think it's a quirk in the forum. I think it has something to do with the feature that saves an edit to a thread if you leave it without saving it. I haven't figured out exactly what causes this to happen, but try your edit again, it should work.

Tim, So you are saying that you have had a post revert back to it's original form hours after successfully posting an edit? My updated post was visible for about 8 hours, then it was suddenly gone.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by AZGdude on 2011-02-14 06:51:29

To my amazement, my updated first post just reappeared. I thought I would post a copy of it here before it disappears again.

AZGdude wrote:

I thought I would try to summarize this thread since it has become MONSTER sized with over 35 pages and gone off track several times making it difficult to to find useful information in it.

Here is the original post that stared it all.

AZGdude wrote:

I have now had a HD500 for about a month now and I am pretty happy with it overall. But some of the amp models have a very harsh and fizzy top end when strumming chords hard. It is most noticeable to me with the AC30, Blackface Double and Hiway 100, but I also hear it with a few other models. I spent a couple of hours last night trying to get a nice sounding Vox AC30, but was not able to create a sound nearly as good as one of the AC30 presets in Amplitube 3 or from what I remember from playing a real AC30. All the HD AC30 presets I have tried or created always sounded to harsh and fizzy and if I dialed out the harshness I also lost the AC30 chime.

Are others finding similar problems? I am wondering if it is a problem with the HD500 or something with my setup. I have an ESP LP copy with Seymour Duncans (JB bridge, 59 neck) and run directly from the HD 1/4 outs to KRK Rokit 6's. I have tried changing "Guitar In" from normal to PAD, but it does not seem to change much. All the same equipment sounds great when playing AC30 presets in Amplitube 3 (except I am using a Alesis i02 Express as the interface between guitar and monitors). Anyone having similar problems or know a solution?

The Problem:

The HD500 (and possibly the HD400 and HD300) produces a distinct digital clipping noise or fizzy higher frequency hash/white/beehive noise when strumming chords hard. It only seems to happen on full amp models that include the preamp and poweramp and is most audible in cleaner amps like the Fender Twin Reverb and Hiwatt. From my experience the HD500 exhibits the fizzy hash/white/beehive noise when it is nearing its dynamic range ceiling, and the digital clipping sound when it surpasses the ceiling. Everyone does NOT seem to have this problem, and those that do don't have a problem plugged into any other amp or modeler. There are two lines of thought as to the source of the problem. One, it is a software issue that is brought out by certain guitars or pickups. The problem does not seem to be based on how hot pickups are, but more related to specific frequencies. This theory is supported by multiple people exchanging their malfunctioning HD500 for a new unit only to find they still have the exact same problem. Two, there is a bad batch of HD500s that have a hardware issue. This theory is supported by how random the problem is and how difficult it is for others to duplicate. The problem has been thoroughly discussed and documented on this forum and over at the TPG. Here are a few links to the highlights in this tread.

Description and Samples originally posed on TGP

More info from Joe

Official Response from Line 6:

As of now, Line 6 has given this official response to the problem and has proceeded to ignored this thread ever since. Understandably, labeling this problem as a "feature" of the HD modeling process has been poorly received by those having the problem.

Workarounds:

Meambobbo first suggested a workaround on page 26 using a studio EQ that then morphed into this volume pedal workaround which seems to work well for the digital clipping issue, and a little less so for the fizzy white noise issue.

Volume Pedal Workaround:

  1. Insert volume pedal at beginning of signal chain.
  2. Push toe down so the volume pedal is at 100% max.
  3. Reduce  the max volume % till clipping and any unwanted fizz/beehive/white  noise fades away. With my equipment I usually find the max volume %  needs to be set somewhere between 65% and 90%.
  4. Create patch,  adjust the volume pedal % max up or down as working on patch till where  the amp sounds its best without clipping or noise, but the max volume %  is as high as possible.
  5. Save preset and go jam.

The  good thing about this workaround is you still have a working volume  pedal. It just scales between 0% and whatever max % you set. The down  sides are that it does not seem to work as well at taming the beehive  with medium gain amps like the AC30 as it does with low gain amps, you  lose 1 of your efx slots, it may impact signal/sound quality and may not  work on the HD300 and HD400.

Officially Reporting a Bug to Line 6:

If you want Line 6 to really pay attention to this problem you should go to the product feedback page and log a bug report.

I will try to update this first post if there are updates on this topic. Please let me know if you think I should add anything else to this post to clarify the issue.

Message was edited by: AZGdude



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by Texxxxx on 2011-02-14 07:02:55

Good idea, and great summary, AZGdude.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by Texxxxx on 2011-02-14 07:04:02

ooops...double post...



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by JerryWawak on 2011-02-14 07:30:11

I don't think they want the original post to change.  This is why.  How can anyone answer a question if the question keeps changing?  If someone changes the original posts, then all of the replies no longer make any sense.  A summary reply is the best way to go.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by meambobbo on 2011-02-14 08:09:13

yeah - that happened to me.  the edit worked - i went back later to look at my post and it looked like the edit was no longer there, then later on the edit appeared again.  might be some kind of caching issue with their database.  always save a local copy of a long post, or add the edit as a reply as well, just in case it gets wiped out.  again, i'm PRETTY sure this is not the intentional actions of humans.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by dbarabe on 2011-02-14 08:31:28

Hi guys,

First of all, thank you so much for those of you who have provided positive informations to this forum.  Some of you have made tremendous work collecting information, providing sound clip example, making summary of the whole issue, while others provided solutions (temporary I hope), but that works for the moment.  Very helpfull.

I do try the EQ solution and it works well for me, but as many said, it is taking an FX slot, and trying to add some effects, I reached the DSP limit, by just adding 2 more effects (reverb and Delay).  Removing the EQ, DSP is ok, but I get the clipping...  By the way, with the workaround itself, the sound is fantastic!!  Didn't try the volume pedal at this point, but this seems to have other downsides.  Anyway, I can't wait to see what Line 6 will proposed us.

One of the reason I purchased the HD500, was to get the Custom tones from other users.  I said to myself, hey, if I don't have the HD500, I won't have the same flexibility than others, and would not be able to us their wonderful tones.  So I choose the HD500.  Actually, I just can't use them (especially the ones with the Double Blackface and Hiwatt 100), as not everybody have this issue, the tones are useless, until you're applying the workaround, and with DSP limitations, it becomes harder.  I'm aware that we always need to tweak a bit the tones to be used with our personal setup, but here, we are talking about changing deeply the tones and its dynamic. 

Once the problem would be found, I think that Line 6 must give us a permanent solution (or tool) to tell us if we are out of range within the input (Signal, Frequencies or whaterver information from where the problem is coming) and allow us to reduced or adjust this parameter (e.g., lowering the input volume, adjusting the frequency, etc).  And this would be very nice if based on Tones setting, because if it's in the system setup, what about changing guitar in a live gig?  The unit setup would not work correctly with different guitars...  Don't know if feasable though.  And people without the problem would have nothing to do, and nothing would have changed in their sound.

A question I have, why we don't have a Clipping "status", as it was available on the PODxt?  This at least would tell us that we have clipping that need to be removed.  Honestly, I do know when I hear Digital Clipping but this may be a confirmation that something is wrong, not just my ear .

I plan to make a feature request and product feedback on all of the above, but I'd like to know what you guys, are your thinking about that.  And we may want to use the "force" of several similar requests.  Just don't know if we have bad units or if it is more "Software" related with specific guitar/pickup setup.

Finally, I'm living in Canada, this may be irrelevant, but is it possible that the POD is reacting differently depending on the voltage (120V is the target, but an electrician already told me that the real voltage may be slightly different, e.g. could be 123-125).  I do not have tool to collect this information and see at what rate my house is running, but, it just a thought.

Thanks again,

dbarabe



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by telecaster3 on 2011-02-14 09:01:16

dbarabe wrote:

*cut*

Finally, I'm living in Canada, this may be irrelevant, but is it possible that the POD is reacting differently depending on the voltage (120V is the target, but an electrician already told me that the real voltage may be slightly different, e.g. could be 123-125).  I do not have tool to collect this information and see at what rate my house is running, but, it just a thought.

Thanks again,

dbarabe

Your mains voltage will cause no problem as all modern mains adapters regulate output voltage independent of the input voltage (within reasonable borders laying far beyond common values e.g. between 100 and 240 Vac according to specs regarding temperature, in fact the adapter won't break up between 75 and 400 Vac)

This leaves 'us' with other 'worries'



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by kevmomuny on 2011-02-14 11:43:44

I have sent a feedback note to line 6 requesting a response on this issue.  They have yet to get back to me. Has anyone recieved a direct response from line 6?



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by dbarabe on 2011-02-14 12:15:25

Thanks for the answer.

I was just wondering if the use of a Power Conditioner with Voltage Regulator and noise suppression may have an impact or not on the POD, by eliminating excessive stress on the power supply.  See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_conditionerfor more details.

I'm just trying to figure out why, if not bad Units, some with similar guitar/setup/pickups are getting the clipping while some don't.  If by any chance somebody have a such Conditioner, and could try it at different voltage with no difference, then it would definitively eliminate this variable.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by kevmomuny on 2011-02-14 12:47:06

I think a power conditioner would eliminate a 60 cycle hum that you might hear in sound equipment connected to a poorly grounded or otherwise noisy electrical source.  If that was the issue, I think we would have fewer people commenting and the noise they complained about would always be there.  Regardless of what amp model they used.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by cGil on 2011-02-14 14:20:01

The wall wart is regulated and filtered 9v DC, so it'll easily coast through most power fluctuations and the majority of trash on the AC line is flattened and filtered out in the process of turning it into low voltage/high current DC.    I have various filtered power strips and rack power units around my room, as well as the UPS for my computer, and also a relatively unfiltered power strip in the bedroom.   I've used 'em all with my HD500, and it didn't make a bit of difference where I had it plugged in.  I totally agree with what has been mentioned previously in this thread, in that once your ears learn what to listen for when it comes to hearing the hash in certain models, "you can't unhear" it".    Most aggravating.   Gotta follow your ears, though.  

Gil...



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by AZGdude on 2011-02-15 06:35:21

kevmomuny wrote:

I have sent a feedback note to line 6 requesting a response on this issue.  They have yet to get back to me. Has anyone recieved a direct response from line 6?

I sent feedback through the feedback form 3 or more weeks ago and I have not received any response from Line 6 on this issue except through this forum, and their last response was back on Feb 4th. It is kind of frustrating that they now seem to be ignoring this issue.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by dftpunk on 2011-02-15 08:28:17

Guys I've sent 3 or more product feedbacks concerning different issues and haven't received any response from line6. It seems like it is the way things works there.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by ricksox on 2011-02-15 08:40:16

dftpunk wrote:

Guys I've sent 3 or more product feedbacks concerning different issues and haven't received any response from line6. It seems like it is the way things works there.

You won't get a response from us if you send in Product Feedback. From the feedback page:

Please submit only product feedback in this form as we are not able to personally respond to any items sent through this form. If you have technical questions or problems, technical help is available on our support page.

Line6Miller



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by ricksox on 2011-02-15 08:41:56

Guys, thank you for your continued interest in this issue that seems to be affecting so many of you. We’ve been doing a lot of digging in to this issue and believe we have found the source which is contributing to the lack of clean headroom in some of the amp models.

Here's a response regardign this from our prodcut manager:

"We have found that several models have incorrect Drive knob functionality on the minimum side. This is preventing many of the amp models from reaching their lowest level of gain staging as demonstrated by the original amps and intended for the models.  This is often leading to sonic outcomes which are being described on our forums as “digital clipping” or “fizz”.  This is the same behavior we’ve seen in the actual amps at higher Drive levels, and we can make clips to show what we mean…but before we do that we want to get a firmware update out to you that properly calibrates the Drive knob so that “clean” tones can be achieved as they would be with the real-world counterparts.  It’s important to note that this is not digital clipping (although I can hear the similarities) but real amp behavior – we were just getting that behavior too soon. ☹

It’s also worth mentioning that we won’t be deceptive about what is going on with our products.  There has been lots of discussion regarding this behavior and any explanation offered by any Line 6 employee represents their best understanding of the issue at hand.  Sometimes our understanding is not yet complete but we don’t want to offer “radio silence”.  We’re doing everything we can to stay engaged with our customers, so let’s try to be cool, or at least civil with one another while we discuss issues like this one.  We’re ALL passionate about guitar tone and products which will bring greater happiness while making music.

We are currently working as fast as we can on the fix and hope to have it out to you very soon.  Thanks for your continued patience.  Please continue to provide feedback on our products.  We really want to excite and inspire with our products and getting customer feedback is always a big help in achieving that goal.

BTW – This fix is not the cool stuff to which Line6 Miller alludes.

Line6Elliot – Product Manager POD HD500"

Line6Miller



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by AZGdude on 2011-02-15 08:47:40

dftpunk wrote:

Guys I've sent 3 or more product feedbacks concerning different issues and haven't received any response from line6. It seems like it is the way things works there.

Truthfully, I don't really expect them to respond to bug or feature requests sent through the feedback form unless they want more info. However, I think they should be more responsive in a public forum like this.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by lowyaw on 2011-02-15 08:52:43

those are very, very good news - thanks!

my POD HD500 stays with me! hey hey!



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by AZGdude on 2011-02-15 08:53:14

I guess I spoke a few seconds too soon.

Thanks Line6Miller for the update. I think a lot of people will be happy to know that you are working on the problem.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by Studioratasshole on 2011-02-15 08:54:37



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by lowyaw on 2011-02-15 09:05:25

dude, chill out

NASA occasionally drops a shuttle down, and you get all bent outta shape over a jambox.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by meambobbo on 2011-02-15 09:15:18

Miller,

Thanks for the relay.  That's very helpful, and we can't wait for the firmware update!

Perhaps this means I am wrong that there is a possible hardware variance between units.  I must be if Line 6 is acting as though this is a universal firmware feature.  Sometimes I love being wrong.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by ricksox on 2011-02-15 09:21:43

This is not hardware related at all. This is strictly in the firmware.

Line6Miller



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by dbarabe on 2011-02-15 09:41:53

Thanks Line6Miller for the update!

Can't wait for the new firmware



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by Rowbi on 2011-02-15 10:12:39

Line6Miller wrote:

Guys, thank you for your continued interest in this issue that seems to be affecting so many of you. We’ve been doing a lot of digging in to this issue and believe we have found the source which is contributing to the lack of clean headroom in some of the amp models.

Here's a response regardign this from our prodcut manager:

We are currently working as fast as we can on the fix and hope to have it out to you very soon. 

BTW – This fix is not the cool stuff to which Line6 Miller alludes.

@ the text in red: WOW, double whammy.

Line 6 rule!



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by telecaster3 on 2011-02-15 10:19:27

telecaster3 wrote:

*cut*

Don't get me wrong: I love the HD concept and I trust Line6 to solve it.

Hear hear, thanks  Line6Miller!  I've got a gig coming feb 26th, I hope I can give my HD500 his debute ;-)



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by dftpunk on 2011-02-15 10:22:40

Please submit only product feedback in this form as we are not able to personally respond to any items sent through this form. If you have technical questions or problems, technical help is available on our support page

And where we will appear? Yeah, at this forum. Such an IRONY! I dont want to post a long message about what this forum is because many people already wrote about this and everybody understands - it's a public forum. Thanks but I'd like a place with me on the one side and the support engineers on the other. It's not personal Miller, but it is the way Line6 creates an illusion of support service. I love this forum but I cant call it a CUSTOMER SUPPORT SERVICE.

By the way I like that line6 admit that this issue is not our fantasy. However I'm not optimistic about the fix.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by Texxxxx on 2011-02-15 10:27:20

Thanks for the updates, Line 6's Elliot and Miller.  Very nice to know.

An informed public is a happy public.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by cabir on 2011-02-15 10:33:01

SO WHEN THE NEXT UPDATE COMING OUT BOYS..??? WOOP WOOP



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by ricksox on 2011-02-15 10:34:08

dftpunk wrote:

Please submit only product feedback in this form as we are not able to personally respond to any items sent through this form. If you have technical questions or problems, technical help is available on our support page

Thanks but I'd like a place with me on the one side and the support engineers on the other. It's not personal Miller, but it is the way Line6 creates an illusion of support service. I love this forum but I cant call it a CUSTOMER SUPPORT SERVICE.

By the way I like that line6 admit that this issue is not our fantasy. However I'm not optimistic about the fix.

Well I'm a support engineer and I'm speaking to you directly. I can create a support ticket for you and assign it to myself if you'd like me to. However, if what you're saying is that you'd like to speak directly to one of our SOFTWARE engineers tehn I'm not sure how feasible that is. I don't know how many software companies allow direct communication of their engineers to their customers. I'm sure there are some though. Anyway, thanks for your feedback.

Line6Miller



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by ricksox on 2011-02-15 10:34:44

That's TBD but it's top priority in house right now.

Line6Miller



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by cabir on 2011-02-15 10:49:25

thanks miller. may i ask except the issue discussed in this thread, what other points are gonna be addressed..??? apprently there's a thread with a list of confirmed bugs and stuff.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by ricksox on 2011-02-15 10:55:01

I'm not really sure to be honest. Reprioriting the bug fixes because of this issue may have moved some things around. Sorry that I have to be so vague but I'm afraid to get into too much detail on what other bugs we're working on etc. fo fear of creating an expectaion that we may not be able to deliver on right away.  I know you guys have waited patiently so I appreciate that.

Line6Miller



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by joaokorb on 2011-02-15 10:55:07

Com´on people! Enough already! Let the guys work on the next firmware update, then you can evalute it and have your complains all over again. If you never stop complaining, how can they ever release a new firmware?

Work on L6 mates! Cheers!



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by cGil on 2011-02-15 13:29:40

And apology would've been nice, but I appreciate the news, and the acknowledgement that it wan't us after all.   Thanks Line 6.   Hope ya'll get this figured out soon.

Gil...



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by desso on 2011-02-15 13:33:27

I'd rather have a fix than an apology.

We want a hint even a little one on the "COOL STUFF"!!



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by kevmomuny on 2011-02-15 13:56:18

Gentelmen,

It appears that you have strapped on a set indeed.

Thanks for letting us know that you are working on it.

I absolutly love the HD 500 and all the tones. I bought it because, I knew that a year from now, I would have a piece of gear that does much more than the original did. Line 6 has always come through with spectacular software upgrades on your products.  This is really a complex piece of gear at an excellent price.  I think we can handle the slightly bumpy start and are eagerly looking forward to the future and all the great music we will make with this killer box.

Thanks again.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by telecaster3 on 2011-02-15 15:36:20

Peepz,

The world has definately changed with firmware upgradable gear combined with a forum.

So keep it up y'all

for now I'm enjoying my piëzo (LR Baggs) with the HD500, wow check it out



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by jeff5x0 on 2011-02-15 16:10:07

Hmmm imagine that. I WASNT "making it up". Miller I want to personally thank you for the effort put forth on this. I was pretty upset initially with the first response to this. Im pleased with the current response. I may come back to the Pod as a back up after the fix is resolved. The fact that this is top priority in the Line 6 office just affirms the faith I have in your company. It may have taken awhile, but I just knew you guys would get it fixed, or at least admit to the issue. Thanks again!



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by AZGdude on 2011-02-15 17:45:01

I have to say I am looking forward to seeing how much this new firmware improves the sound quality of the HD500. Although I must admit I have been thrilled by the sound quality of some of the presets I have been creating since I started using the volume pedal work around. Night and day difference IMHO.

I also can't wait to see what the exciting new features are.



Thank You For You Efforts Mr. Miller!
by spaceatl on 2011-02-15 18:19:32

+1



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by variableresults on 2011-02-15 19:21:51

Line6Miller wrote:

I'm not really sure to be honest. Reprioriting the bug fixes because of this issue may have moved some things around. Sorry that I have to be so vague but I'm afraid to get into too much detail on what other bugs we're working on etc. fo fear of creating an expectaion that we may not be able to deliver on right away.  I know you guys have waited patiently so I appreciate that.

Line6Miller

Thanks for the update and making an effort make things right.  I'm looking forward to the upcoming update



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by Bluestone on 2011-02-15 19:26:12

Miller has been and is...THE man.....

Bro...it's all about you...

OM



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by cabir on 2011-02-15 22:02:53

the pod hd world is rejoicing...

tons of bravo going to Miller,

so i ask,

why hasn't anyone been nice enough to offer him a free handjob..?

hahahahahaha..!!!

ps. pun intended, this post does not promote unparlimentary behaviour in any way.

pps. but that depends on what parliment we're using as context. ;D



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by telecaster3 on 2011-02-16 00:20:52

I think he 'gets' it cabir ;-)



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by dftpunk on 2011-02-16 00:50:58

I'd prefer to hav an update first and then saying "thanks" and other thing.

I just DON'T belive line6's engineers (developers) didn't hear such bug before they released the gear. It was just a good maneuver to win the time.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by Rowbi on 2011-02-16 01:45:29

dftpunk wrote:

I'd prefer to hav an update first and then saying "thanks" and other thing.

I just DON'T belive line6's engineers (developers) didn't hear such bug before they released the gear. It was just a good maneuver to win the time.

I think the important thing to understand is that they did hear it. re-read what Elliot said:

We have found that several models have incorrect Drive knob functionality on the minimum side. This is preventing many of the amp models from reaching their lowest level of gain staging as demonstrated by the original amps and intended for the models.  This is often leading to sonic outcomes which are being described on our forums as “digital clipping” or “fizz”.  This is the same behavior we’ve seen in the actual amps at higher Drive levels, and we can make clips to show what we mean…but before we do that we want to get a firmware update out to you that properly calibrates the Drive knob so that “clean” tones can be achieved as they would be with the real-world counterparts.  It’s important to note that this is not digital clipping (although I can hear the similarities) but real amp behavior – we were just getting that behavior too soon. ☹

so they did hear it, and left it there because it's in the real amp.  the part they missed was that you couldn't dial it out when using lower gain settings, and it sounds to me (from the info above) that we're getting the best of both worlds.....

1. we get some clean headroom at lower drive settings which is what this thread is all about

2. we get the amp model that's still true to the original amp (i.e. there was a bug in the drive settings before)

3. the people who like it the way it is also can still get the tones they like, which are true to the original

4. we also get some more cool things in the future.

at the end of the day, you can say you don't believe the Line 6 developers, that's your choice... I do believe them when they say they made an honest mistake, and they're fixing it.... what more can we expect?

If I didn't believe a company, and thought they were trying to pull the wool over my eyes, then I wouldn't buy their gear, and I just don't think that's the way L6 roll.  they've always been honest about things, so I don't know where you get the idea from that they are talking BS... Rome wasn't built in a day, and the same goes for bug finding and fixing!

Rowbi



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by lowyaw on 2011-02-16 02:16:16

screw apologies

we're getting too self-indulgent, that never helped anyone

let Line 6 work things out, and it'll be fine.

come on, show some appreciation - they take a ton of shit from us here and still answer politely, and waht's important they REACT.

doh



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by dftpunk on 2011-02-16 03:12:43

Rowbi I can understand your feelings to Line6 and I had the same when played on my XT live, because I bought it in 2007 when all the possible bugs were fixed and since that time there were no any new firmware for it. So I was a buyer of the final product.

I just wanted to say that we should be customers of the final product but as I can see we just beta-testers!!! And this is frustrating as to be honest HD500 should be at the lab for almost all this time. I suppose that developers are not guilty and I'd like to think that it's all marketing employees who said "Guys we dont care that the product is not done yet but we'll do a great advertisement and sell it well and then you'll complete it on the fly". So we're the buyers of the undone product. And please dont think that all the new firmwares are the cool features to the already done good product - they're just fixes for the existing bugs.

And I love HD500. But as someone said above "it will be a good product in a year when all the bugs will be fixed".

Thanks.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by desso on 2011-02-16 03:43:09

I LOVE being an "early-adopter" of music, computers, toys, gadgets, etc.  I want new gizmos as soon as they're available. I've accepted (and am NOT saying it's right) the fact that being a "trail blazer", "first kid on the block to have ______", "Mr. Trend Setter" I'm going to pay premium price and have to deal with teething issues.  I am involved in the R&D, Design, Engineering, Manufacturing and Deployment of the latest tech the U.S. Dept. of Defense has.  Do you think all possible operating sceneros are known at the early stages of a product's life cycle?  NOT HARDLY.  Look at it this way, when users provide feedback, their concerns and wishes often get adopted as the product matures. 

Rock On Line 6

(I still wanna know what the COOL STUFF is going to be!)



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound when using super hot guitars
by Crusty_Old_Rocker on 2011-02-16 04:00:38

dftpunk wrote:

I'd prefer to hav an update first and then saying "thanks" and other thing.

I just DON'T belive line6's engineers (developers) didn't hear such bug before they released the gear. It was just a good maneuver to win the time.

Well I have tried to get my HD500 to exhibit the behaviour and the only way that I can do it is with the Variax but I have to select a PAF humbucker and boost its output by +6db and then boost the entire guitar by another +6db.  Quite frankly, that would clip the front end of any amp.

So, for me, there is no problem, nor has there ever been this problem.  I certainly cannot get the problem to manifest with any of my normal guitars.  Perhaps the developers were using guitars with standard output levels.

Cheers,

Crusty



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by dftpunk on 2011-02-16 04:03:55

Do you think all possible operating sceneros are known at the early stages of a product's life cycle?  NOT HARDLY.

Of course not. However this is not an early stage. It should be not even a final stage. And it's hardly beliveable that developers\engineers\beta-tester haven't heard the major bug in the product. I can expect such things from a small company somewhere in Germany, but not from a line6 who position themselves as a big company and leader in digital music technologies.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound when using super hot guitars
by dftpunk on 2011-02-16 04:07:54

Perhaps the developers were using guitars with standard output levels.

This is radiculous as they should try a great line of guitars with different output levels because HD500 is a guitar processor and not for example a "Fender Telecaster guitar Processor". I hope you've got me.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by Rowbi on 2011-02-16 04:21:19

dftpunk wrote:

Rowbi I can understand your feelings to Line6 and I had the same when played on my XT live, because I bought it in 2007 when all the possible bugs were fixed and since that time there were no any new firmware for it. So I was a buyer of the final product.

I just wanted to say that we should be customers of the final product but as I can see we just beta-testers!!! And this is frustrating as to be honest HD500 should be at the lab for almost all this time. I suppose that developers are not guilty and I'd like to think that it's all marketing employees who said "Guys we dont care that the product is not done yet but we'll do a great advertisement and sell it well and then you'll complete it on the fly". So we're the buyers of the undone product. And please dont think that all the new firmwares are the cool features to the already done good product - they're just fixes for the existing bugs.

And I love HD500. But as someone said above "it will be a good product in a year when all the bugs will be fixed".

Thanks.

i agree with you to a point..... but I'm happy to be on the bleeding edge.  if you're not then perhaps save yourself some hassle, and don't buy things when they're new.  it happens with all things in technology these days, other software, firmware, cars (needing software updates) even blu-ray players get updates now..!!

the point I'm trying to make, is that L6 is a business.  they test products and if they think there's no bugs (after a lot of testing) they are released.  if users find bugs, line 6 is willing to test them and make fixes.  simple as that.  maybe you could say they should test more or wait longer, but if they have a large test plan already and find no bugs, whe bean counters will say "get it on sale ASAP".

how is that different to microsoft patching their OS once a months sometimes for years and years...  if MS waited until all the bugs are fixed, they would never release anything.  compaed to line 6's small/medium company, MS is huge and even they can't get it right and get bug reports form users.

I hear your argument, but in reality if Line 6 or any other company did what you're suggesting, they'd go bust, or products would cost a lot more (because of much higher testing costs), or they'd be behind the times....  just take it for what it is.  if it works for you, great, if not you know what the options are.  but let's just give line 6 a chance to fix this issue, and see where you stand.  if you've not even got that much faith in them, why are you buying their gear?



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by Rowbi on 2011-02-16 04:25:56

dftpunk wrote:

Do you think all possible operating sceneros are known at the early stages of a product's life cycle?  NOT HARDLY.

Of course not. However this is not an early stage. It should be not even a final stage. And it's hardly beliveable that developers\engineers\beta-tester haven't heard the major bug in the product. I can expect such things from a small company somewhere in Germany, but not from a line6 who position themselves as a big company and leader in digital music technologies.

line 6 aren't that big a company really.

but you miss the point.  this bug (the harsh sound) isn't actually the bug.  that sound IS expected but only on higher drive settings.  as Elliots post (via Miller) said earlier, the drive knob settings lower down are the problem..... so the harsh part of the tone was heard by them, and it's expected.  so using various pickup outputs on a guitar just moves that sound around a bit.  but if you're expecting it some of the time, then that's perhaps why it ws missed.

at least thats what I understood from Elliots statement.

just chill man, you're on a crusade, and you don't need to be.  L6 have heard you guys, and will release a fix... that's it.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound when using super hot guitars
by Nick_Mattocks on 2011-02-16 05:20:42

Crusty_Old_Rocker wrote:

dftpunk wrote:

I'd prefer to hav an update first and then saying "thanks" and other thing.

I just DON'T belive line6's engineers (developers) didn't hear such bug before they released the gear. It was just a good maneuver to win the time.

Well I have tried to get my HD500 to exhibit the behaviour and the only way that I can do it is with the Variax but I have to select a PAF humbucker and boost its output by +6db and then boost the entire guitar by another +6db.  Quite frankly, that would clip the front end of any amp.

So, for me, there is no problem, nor has there ever been this problem.  I certainly cannot get the problem to manifest with any of my normal guitars.  Perhaps the developers were using guitars with standard output levels.

Cheers,

Crusty

Yes +1.  That's exactly the same behaviour I see here too.

Nick



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound when using super hot guitars
by lowyaw on 2011-02-16 05:51:39

Crusty_Old_Rocker wrote:

Well I have tried to get my HD500 to exhibit the behaviour and the only way that I can do it is with the Variax but I have to select a PAF humbucker and boost its output by +6db and then boost the entire guitar by another +6db.  Quite frankly, that would clip the front end of any amp.

So, for me, there is no problem, nor has there ever been this problem.  I certainly cannot get the problem to manifest with any of my normal guitars.  Perhaps the developers were using guitars with standard output levels.

Cheers,

Crusty

i don't think so. I have a bone-stock Les Paul with pickups lowered for cleaner and brighter sound, and I do get the symptom on Fender and Hiwat models.

I can hear similar artifacts on all other models, btw, but they are very, very mild.

But alas, we don't have to argue anymore, because Miller confirms there really is a problem.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by phil_m on 2011-02-16 06:56:50

I wouldn't consider myself a beta tester for the 500.  I've been using mine live for several months now, and I haven't had any issues.  The fact is that software-based platforms will always lend themselves to constant change, so the good news is that if there is an issue that shows up somewhere along the road, it can be fixed.  The crossover distortion that happens in some models is something that beta testers observed (I wasn't in on the beta testing for the HD series, I'm just saying this from what I've read here), and it was believed to be the behavior of the modeled amps.  So now it simply appears that the behavior appears too early along the drive knob.  One thing that will be interesting to see is that when the fix is made to the models is if people will actually like the fixed models.  I still get the idea from reading this thread that people have the idea that these Fender and Vox amps are cleaner than they actually are.  Yes, if you have at a low volume they do have some amount of clean headroom, but it doesn't mean it's impossible to get some nasty distortion with hot enough pickups.  I'll be interested to hear the fixed models.

Btw, I have a somewhat funny story kind fo related to this.  A guy who goes to my church and who I'm sort of friends with makes a  living giving online blues lessons.  He went to NAMM, and while he was  there he managed to convince the people at Avid to send him an 11 Rack  for free.  I guess they're hoping he'll use it and plug it for them.   Anyway, I was talking to him yesterday, and I asked him how he liked it,  and one of the first things out of his mouth was, "someone should tell  them that Fender Twin will overdrive.  It doesn't stay perfectly clean  when you play it hard."  I have to admit, it just made me smile a bit...



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by dftpunk on 2011-02-16 07:04:28

if you've not even got that much faith in them, why are you buying their gear?

I said that I got much of faith, because I was totally happy with old XT live. And then they've released HD500 saying "Revolutionary modelling" and etc etc etc. And they've advertised the product well so I've decided to buy it because I was a line6 "fan". But I didn't expected such bugs. You know, I dont want to say bad words about line6's QA dept but not to find the "DOT BUG"(if you're know what I'm saying) before release is the apogee of their "professional skills".

but I'm happy to be on the bleeding edge

For some people it's happiness...You've seen that post from desso above... But you should understand that most of people bought HD500 to actively start playing on stage, in band in other words use this device the way it was created for. And some bugs prevent us to do this. We don't have a time for waiting... And please don't tell me "Why did you bought it?" because the answer is "Because it was announced as a Revolutionary HD device and there were no any words about bugs". I'd like to remind that I don't say I don't love the tone of new POD or M-class effects - I love 'em and that's why I'm still on board with Line6. But this issue is a great lesson for me now, the same lesson timowens had with his X3.

That's all I'd like to say regarding the issue. I'm glad that line6 admit its existence. And I hope that the new firmware will fix this bug. And guys thanks for keeping this thread alive. And thanks to Miller who is the key point between us and Line6's developers.

Waiting for the fix.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound when using super hot guitars
by AZGdude on 2011-02-16 07:07:40

Crusty_Old_Rocker wrote:

Well I have tried to get my HD500 to exhibit the behaviour and the only way that I can do it is with the Variax but I have to select a PAF humbucker and boost its output by +6db and then boost the entire guitar by another +6db.  Quite frankly, that would clip the front end of any amp.

So, for me, there is no problem, nor has there ever been this problem.  I certainly cannot get the problem to manifest with any of my normal guitars.  Perhaps the developers were using guitars with standard output levels.

Cheers,

Crusty

Sorry Crusty, but I have to disagree with you on this. Too many people, including myself, have standard run of the mill guitars that ONLY have a clipping / fizz problem when plugged into the HD500. I can only remove the clipping or fizz on many amp models by using the volume pedal workaround and backing the max volume down to as low as 60%. I have never had to do anything like this with any other amp, modeler or computer interface. This clearly tells me that the problem is the HD, not my guitar.

AZ



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound when using super hot guitars
by dftpunk on 2011-02-16 07:34:23

+100500



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by Rowbi on 2011-02-16 07:46:03

dftpunk wrote:

when played on my XT live, because I bought it in 2007 when all the possible bugs were fixed and since that time there were no any new firmware for it. So I was a buyer of the final product.

dftpunk wrote:

And please don't tell me "Why did you bought it?" because the answer is "Because it was announced as a Revolutionary HD device and there were no any words about bugs".

Are you saying that the XTL was advertised that it had bugs when it was released and so you waited for those bugs to be fixed? I would be surprised if Line 6 would advertise that in a new product, especially when the bugs at the point of release hadn't been discovered.

Maybe the advertising should have read:

"Revolutionary HD device, which we've tested lots, and fixed any bugs we discovered, but that's not to say there's not a small chance there's still bugs... so just let us know if you have a problem".......

Obviously with a statement like that, I'm sure LIne 6 would still be in business in 12 months... defo!

Maybe the same could be applied to Toyota with their dodgy breaks... I guess they didn't bother to test them before releasing the car... I mean they've only got a whole city worth of employees to test... so they mustn't have bothered: http://uk.cars.yahoo.com/03022010/36/prius-brakes-recall-possible-0.html

Only a mere 8 million cars to recall....

you're probably thinking right now "OMG this Rowbi guy is a right pain in the a$$, he just doesn't get my point".  well I am an a$$ sometimes, as my wife will certainly swear to...

But I do get your point... it just doesn't bother me because in this day and age, with digital and updatable everything, there's hardly a product that gets released which is perfect first time, there just isnt.  if you can think of something  that's a complex digital device that is released, and similar items from different manufacturers never needs an update, then please let me know... I just can't think of anything.. heck even the flash unit on my wifes DSLR camera has firmware updates... and that's just a flash...!!!

Peace

Rowbi

P.S.... remember, L6 are gonna fix it



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound when using super hot guitars
by lowsco on 2011-02-16 08:04:11

AZGdude wrote:

Crusty_Old_Rocker wrote:

Well I have tried to get my HD500 to exhibit the behaviour and the only way that I can do it is with the Variax but I have to select a PAF humbucker and boost its output by +6db and then boost the entire guitar by another +6db.  Quite frankly, that would clip the front end of any amp.

So, for me, there is no problem, nor has there ever been this problem.  I certainly cannot get the problem to manifest with any of my normal guitars.  Perhaps the developers were using guitars with standard output levels.

Sorry Crusty, but I have to disagree with you on this. Too many people, including myself, have standard run of the mill guitars that ONLY have a clipping / fizz problem when plugged into the HD500. I can only remove the clipping or fizz on many amp models by using the volume pedal workaround and backing the max volume down to as low as 60%. I have never had to do anything like this with any other amp, modeler or computer interface. This clearly tells me that the problem is the HD, not my guitar.

AZ

+1 from me AZ, I've got several guitars, old Telecasters, old Gibson Jazzers, Strats, PRS and a couple more modern Ibanez with higher output pickups. The problem exists, no matter what guitar I use. I'm glad that Line 6 has acknowledged this issue and I'm looking forward to the fix.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by dftpunk on 2011-02-16 10:27:00

Are you saying that the XTL was advertised that it had bugs when it was released and so you waited for those bugs to be fixed?

Fortunately I've learnt about XTlive and Line6 in 2007 and XTL was the lates processor that time and it was already in production for year or so I suppose.

"Revolutionary HD device, which we've tested lots, and fixed any bugs we discovered, but that's not to say there's not a small chance there's still bugs... so just let us know if you have a problem".......

Nooo) It's a bad marketing... But I still belive they should put one-two monthes more in testing. Maybe I've just expected too much from line6

you're probably thinking right now "OMG this Rowbi guy is a right pain in the a$$, he just doesn't get my point".

ha-ha)) No, you're not a pain in the a$$ man And it's not a goal for me to force you stay my point of view. We're just discussing. We're just looking to the same problem from the different angles: you're an optimist here and I'm a pessimist

P.S.... remember, L6 are gonna fix it

oh man, I hope. This bug prevents me from doing demo records at home   Fortunately my live shows goes fine as I use Pre models there.

Peace!)



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by spaceatl on 2011-02-16 12:14:04

dftpunk wrote:

Are you saying that the XTL was advertised that it had bugs when it was released and so you waited for those bugs to be fixed?

Fortunately I've learnt about XTlive and Line6 in 2007 and XTL was the lates processor that time and it was already in production for year or so I suppose.

"Revolutionary HD device, which we've tested lots, and fixed any bugs we discovered, but that's not to say there's not a small chance there's still bugs... so just let us know if you have a problem".......

Nooo) It's a bad marketing... But I still belive they should put one-two monthes more in testing. Maybe I've just expected too much from line6

you're probably thinking right now "OMG this Rowbi guy is a right pain in the a$$, he just doesn't get my point".

ha-ha)) No, you're not a pain in the a$$ man And it's not a goal for me to force you stay my point of view. We're just discussing. We're just looking to the same problem from the different angles: you're an optimist here and I'm a pessimist

P.S.... remember, L6 are gonna fix it

oh man, I hope. This bug prevents me from doing demo records at home   Fortunately my live shows goes fine as I use Pre models there.

Peace!)

So you learned about the XTL three years after it was released...Makes sense you like it at that point...

Did you know that the XTL did NOT have a working Editor and you could not update the firmware using USB...You had to use midi for that first update or two...

I would say Line has improved quite a bit and early adoption has actually improved over the years...

Line 6 XT Live Version 1.10 Released 8/27/04



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by MickSlick on 2011-02-16 12:14:08
As an "early adopter" of this bug, and one of the original posters, a month before this thread, trying to deal with it, thought I would weigh in with my 2 cents - This is not a minor bug, it is a MAJOR bug, one that caused me to buy and return two units and spend dozens of hours trying to deal with it.  So, I am happy that Line 6 1) finally acknowledged it and 2) are going to hopefully fix it - but - I am still a bit dumbfounded as to how this thing made it out the door with such a glaring issue and why it took a company of the stature of Line 6 so long to admit to it and deal with it.  Hopefully there were some lessons learned here.

Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by cGil on 2011-02-16 13:13:40

Ditto.  It ultimately is, and until further notice remains, a "Major bug"; and I think that argument is supported by the glaring number of folks who've battled with it and given up, myself included, although hopefully only temporarily.   The amp model hash I found intolerable; but I had hoped to use my HD500 mostly as an fx unit while waiting and wondering for the rest to be fixed.  But really.   My Java Boost and RC Booster and even my homebrew ZenDrive/TubeScreamer variant blew away anything the HD had to offer, and it was difficult at best to dial up anything remotely near the quality of instantly attainable tones in my MXR Stereo Chorus and Carbon Copy pedals, for example.  Tone shootouts is shootouts.   I absolutely loved the 'verbs, though.   Especially the cavern.  And the RMC-Wah model was interesting.  But using that monster just for a wah and verbs was too little bang for the buck, as well as bang per pedalboard space, much less the added weight to the gig bag.   It was also a bit embarrasing, cuz I didn't like having to suddenly start having to make excuses for my gear, or my tone.   It may eventually be a contender, but right not it's just not ready for prime time!

Gil...



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by kevmomuny on 2011-02-16 20:33:54

Mr. Miller,

Thanks again for giving us the update.  I do have one request though...

Since there is no projected release date for the firmware fix and the natives are still pretty restless, could you commit to touching base in this thread regularly untill the fix is released?

I don't know...maybe every other day?  If that indeed sounds like a reasonable interval to you.  We all seem to calm down quite a bit at just the sound of your voice...on the other hand, without info, everybody gets pretty cranky.

If we see a light at the end of the tunnel, however dim, we will have hope.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by cGil on 2011-02-16 20:58:25

That'd sure be nice, huh!  Hey, I'm on the edge of my seat.  What can I say?  GAS never sleeps, I guess.   Daily updates would be even better.  It's either that, or I'm sure we're gonna keep giving 'em the "Are we there yet?" treatment.   

Gil...



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by dftpunk on 2011-02-16 23:44:19

So you learned about the XTL three years after it was released...Makes sense you like it at that point...

Yeah I was a lucky one



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by cabir on 2011-02-18 04:26:06

all i wanna know is if the 'Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound' is also "High Definition". i hope it is, coz that's what i paid for... (evil laughter follows)



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by dftpunk on 2011-02-18 05:00:12

Ha-ha, cabir

Be shure after the fix this clipping sound will be in HighDefinition



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by kevmomuny on 2011-02-19 22:29:14

so, really...

we would like somebody to touch base...

just say, 

'still working'....

the potential for bitchiness will be greatly reduced...



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by cGil on 2011-02-20 00:50:08

Well, they just dropped the Mac driver bomb, and it is the weekend.  Somebody probably unchained 'em from their workstations again, so it may take a while to herd 'em back inside.

Meanwhile, I'm kinda curious to hear the verdict on the Mac driver, and wondering if it cured the thin and wimpy USB recording volume syndrome.  

Gil...



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by ricksox on 2011-02-22 09:04:13

We are still working on this. There really isn't anything new to report. We've identified the issue, made it top priority to fix, and will be getting it out in the next firmware release. I'm not really sure what else I can say here.

Line6Miller



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by greghall on 2011-02-22 09:15:18

Gil,

The verdict on the new Mac driver is "don't use it - it's broken" - this thread refers ....

http://uk.line6.com/community/thread/57207?tstart=0

Hopefullyit will get fixed soon



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by cGil on 2011-02-22 10:26:37

-heavy sigh-  

Gil...



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by ricksox on 2011-02-22 10:33:15

Actually, I just downlaoded and installed the new Mac driver on my Macbook Pro here on Leopard and Snow Leopard without a hitch.

There are 6 total users so far on that thread that have had issues and by glancing at a couple of them I can tell you that they are not due to driver issues. We've had exactly 2,236 Mac 5.70 driver downloads since we released on Thursday.

The Mac driver is NOT broken. Other software on your system can be creating conflicts etc. We jsut need to figure out what's causing it.

Line6Miller



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by ricksox on 2011-02-22 11:47:33

The verdict on the new Mac driver is "don't use it - it's broken" - this thread refers ....

http://uk.line6.com/community/thread/57207?tstart=0

You'rebasing a verdict on 6 unique users of the 2200 that have downloaded this driver since last Thursday.

I just successfully downloaded and installed the new Mac drvier on my Macbook Pro running both 10.5 and 10.6 with absolutely no problems.

There are so many software variables involved from system to system that don't you think that at the very least it's possible that this could be the issue for these users?

Identifying the root cause is the hard part. Our QA department was actually quite surprised about how clean this driver was and pushed back the release a week so they could perform further testing just to be sure.

Line6Miller



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by telecaster3 on 2011-02-22 13:11:17

sorry, but this is IMHO not a mac thread, nor is it about drivers. Keep it clean not fizzy ;-) please.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by Rowbi on 2011-02-22 13:36:55

telecaster3 wrote:

sorry, but this is IMHO not a mac thread, nor is it about drivers. Keep it clean not fizzy ;-) please.

true, but it's not Miller (who you replied to) who started turning it into one.  I think he's said what was needed, and anyone with MAC driver issues, or issues not relating to the initial theme of this discussion should start a new thread... that's always how it should work IMHO.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by telecaster3 on 2011-02-22 13:57:24

Rowbi wrote:

.... it's not Miller (who you replied to) who started turning it into one.

True, but Miller is moderating here isn't he? This thread is heavy enough as it is.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by Rowbi on 2011-02-22 14:12:32

Right.. So should he have deleted it because it was in the wrong place? That would have gone down like a lead balloon.  Or maybe ignoring the post would have been better.  I am sure neither of those would have caused a riot at all...  Miller is theod, so he can post here if he feels it is necessary and is in the best interests of all. This fizz thread has already been told the fix is on the way.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by ricksox on 2011-02-22 14:19:10

telecaster3 wrote:

sorry, but this is IMHO not a mac thread, nor is it about drivers. Keep it clean not fizzy ;-) please.

You're right it's not a Mac thread. I was trying to quell another potential riotous scare based on an issue that doesn't carry much weight yet in regards to the number of users it's affecting. The drivers install fine for me and almost 2500 other people so now we all know.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by greghall on 2011-02-23 01:42:37

I was not trying to create a "scare" - some people clearly have had issues. However, thank you for bringing some perspective to the driver issue.

I think it would be very helpful to post your response to that Mac Driver thread too.

Kind Regards



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by ricksox on 2011-02-23 09:33:47

I'm sorry Greg. I didn't mean to come across like that and I certainly didn't mean to insiuate that that was what you were trying to do. i just wanted to offer up some perspective. I will certainly chime into the thread today to help out.

Line6Miller



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by kevmomuny on 2011-02-23 11:59:58

Line6Miller wrote:

We are still working on this. There really isn't anything new to report. We've identified the issue, made it top priority to fix, and will be getting it out in the next firmware release. I'm not really sure what else I can say here.

Line6Miller

Thanks for popping in with that update.  I'm sure it seems pointless but, I think surfacing on a regular basis, even to say there is nothing new to report, will go a long way to keep rank and file mellow and calm.

It's is like we are in a busy restaurant and our order went in behind a huge table of 25.  Yes, we are waiting.  Yes, we know why. (Because the waiter came by and told us...) The food is good here so yes, we are willing to wait. But, if the waiter dosn't keep coming by every few minutes to check if we need more water or another beer, we will think we are forgotten.

We know we aren't forgotten, but it is just human nature.

Don't get too exasperated with us...



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by ricksox on 2011-02-23 13:40:38

Roger that...I completely understand. I'll try to pop in more from time to time.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by markbrid on 2011-02-23 14:01:21

Finally got the fizzies in my clean tones using any humbucker guitar, but am very thankful that the issue is software related and not hardware (you can use preamp models for clean tones, meaning the hardware is OK), also it is an acknowledged bug.  I am 100% convinced that it will be fixed.

However, is there any indication when the updated software will become available?  Months?  Weeks?  Just so I can stop checking by so much and having my hopes dashed.  BTW, to Line 6, I am checking out a major firmware upgrade at my main job, so I feel your pain.  Sometimes these things defy schedules.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by AZGdude on 2011-03-01 10:24:03

I have been starting to wonder if there is more to this than already  discussed. Last week I gave into GAS and bought a new American Deluxe  Strat with N3 pickups and S1 switching. I have quickly realized there is  a world of difference in the sound quality of the two guitars plugged  into the HD500. The Strat sounds INCREDIBLE with an airy and huge dynamic range and large tone variances depending on selected pickups,  volume and tone control settings, plus there is no sign of clipping or  hash. My ESP with Seymour Duncan 59/JB HB pickups sounds incredibly  compressed and hashy, like the amp models are pushed to the absolute edge of what they can handle. Not at all the way it sounds plugged into other  amps and equipment.

Just out of curiosity I checked the voltage output of both guitars using  a cheap voltage meter (as suggest long ago by Crusty). With the Strat I maxed out at ~16mV with single  coils and ~300mV with the three single coils in series. With the HB  guitar I maxed out at ~900mV with the JB in the bridge position. The 59  maxed out at 300mV - 400mV. My understanding is that anything under  1000mV is considered normal for a guitar, but it makes me really wonder  if voltage is playing into this problem? Will the firmware update really fix the problem I am having?



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by JerryWawak on 2011-03-01 10:38:13

I know that my newest guitar, my LTD EC-256 is the one I really hear the worst clipping with.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by AZGdude on 2011-03-01 18:21:53

I wonder what the  output voltage is from your guitar? From my experience, once a guitar hits 400mV or so the sound quality of the HD goes down hill quickly. I would love to hear from Line 6 if this has been thoroughly checked.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by laforce58 on 2011-03-02 15:35:20

Miller and Elliot:

Thank you for your attention to this problem.  Your forthright response to the community has salvaged at least one HD500 sale, and likely, quite a few more.  I recently purchased one and instantly became aware of this problem.  This is because I was most interested in the clean and break-up tones available in the HD500 where the trouble is most evident.

I started my electric guitarslinging 40 years ago on a 50s-vintage Fender Princeton.  A HiWatt Custom 100 was the one constant in my performing and recording "career" between 1975 and 1985, and I was an "early adopter" of MESA Boogie with their Mark I.  Amongst all the amps that came and went were other Fenders (including the Twin), MusicMan, LAB Series, Peavey, Marshall and Orange, to name a few.  I've also been riding the digital wave since it's inception with innumerable processors and modelers, including everything in the BOSS GT-series, much of the Digitech line, the Vox ToneLab SE, and even a few ZOOM units.

I am not an expert on these things, but after an extravagant number of hours spent immersed in all this stuff, you develop an ear for what does and does not sound right.  I came to this forum specifically to find out what the deal was with the HD500.  Spaceatl was kind enough to point me to this thread and I eagerly read all 41 pages of posts on this subject looking for information on the origin and a fix for the problem.  At the point where some at Line 6 were declaring this a "feature", I was determined to box up the new HD500 and return it for a refund.  Because of the acknowledgement that something was, indeed, awry and that a firmware update is in the works, I am now willing to keep the HD500 and trust that all will be well.  Again, thank you for coming to our assistance.

BTW- I'm hardly new to Line 6.  I purchased the original Spyder when it came to market and still own a Flextone II head, Flextone IIIXL, POD XT Live and a Pocket POD.  Over the years, I have been a defender of Line 6 and have prevailed against a battalion of "tube snobs" who argue that there's nothing meritorius about your products and that it's all designed for tone-deaf beginners who don't know any better.  I will continue to be a customer for as long as Line 6 takes care of its community.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by laforce58 on 2011-03-02 19:27:06

Deleted.  Double posted.

Message was edited by: laforce58



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by AZGdude on 2011-03-03 09:16:23

Line6Miller,

I was wondering if you could address my question in this tread about how differently the HD500 reacts to different guitars. Will this firmware update fix this issue?

AZGdude.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by telecaster3 on 2011-03-04 01:21:40

@Line6Miller,

As you are poppin' in from time to time: Are we closer to one month or 6 months of the new firmware release?



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by silverhead on 2011-03-04 06:59:03

AZGdude, I just want to thank and compliment you on your diligence in keeping this thread up to date. I notice you updated the intial post once again yesterday to reflect current status. This is an important issue for many HD users, myself included, and I believe this thread has been instrumental in ensuring that the elusive nature of this problem has been tracked down by Line 6 and that a fix is in the offing.

Good work, not only in tracking the status of this issue but also for being a calming and reasonable influence at times when the discussion understandably got emotional and perhaps counter-productive.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by AZGdude on 2011-03-04 08:46:36

Silverhead, thanks for complements. Being that I have worked in the tech field for years I know it can be hard to track down bugs, especially ones like this one where there is a huge amount of information, but it is scattered all over the map. Maintaining the first post in this thread is my attempt at making this thread a little more digestible and trying to help Line 6 fix a problem on what is otherwise a great product.

I personally have become a little concerned about the upcoming firmware fix since buying the Strat. I was really rather amazed at how differently my two guitars react to the HD, which makes me wonder if they are on the right track based on their official statement. Hopefully they are, but it would be nice to hear from Line 6 if these dramatic differences are being addressed in the update?



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by silverhead on 2011-03-04 09:03:09

I also think that HarryN's contribution and insight here is something that is being overlooked by many people experiencing the fizz/clip symptoms:
http://line6.com/community/thread/58114?tstart=30

Ifyour inputs are using the default Input 1 = Guitar; Input 2 = Same then there is an efective doubling of the input guitar signal. Since we already know the input level is part of what causes the trouble, I believe many people could reduce the symptoms by changing Input 2 to Aux. This would nullify Input 2 and ensure that the guitar input is being fed into the HD only once. For dual path tones you may need to retain Input 2.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by Rowbi on 2011-03-04 09:28:19

silverhead wrote:

(or Mic on the HD300/400 and lower the Mic trim to zero).

there's no mic input on the HD300/400, i think it's 500 only with multiple inputs.  I've experienced thin on my HD400, so although it's a good idea, I'm not sure this will help.

on the previous thought about AZG's strat... I've got several tube amp repair and theory books here, and there's a great chapter in a book called "All about tube guitar amplifiers" by gerald weber, ISBN: 978-0-9641060-3-1 which talks about back in the early days of tube amps, fender amps were made to work with fender single coils and stay clean (this was when distortion was considered bad)... and gibson amps were designed to stay clean with the hotter humbuckers.  put a gibby into a fender amp from those days and you got nasty breakup (aparently)... a fender into a gibson amp and t sounded really weak.  then along came Randall Smith and put more gain in a fender preamp and you got mesa boogies.

what's my point.... well some of the amps in the POD are vintage, and are modelled just as the real amps are (bugs notwithstanding) and back in the day all amps weren't designed to work with all guitars, some combinations just sounded bad.

now I'm not saying that's the case here, nor am I trying to start another discussion about this.... but the differences between a strat and a les paul into the same amp, are why people like different amps.  it's horses for courses...

anyway... just throwing that out there... not trying to prove any points, just saying every possible combination of gear (including different amps in a POD) wont give you a dream rig.... only some will... and it's all about personal preference.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by silverhead on 2011-03-04 09:32:46

Rowbi wrote:

silverhead wrote:

(or Mic on the HD300/400 and lower the Mic trim to zero).

there's no mic input on the HD300/400, i think it's 500 only with multiple inputs.  I've experienced thin on my HD400, so although it's a good idea, I'm not sure this will help.

Yeah - I had remembered that and already edited my post to correct it. Thanks for clarifying for those who have already read the inital post. My mistake.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by AZGdude on 2011-03-04 10:02:45

Rowbi wrote:

on the previous thought about AZG's strat... I've got several tube amp repair and theory books here, and there's a great chapter in a book called "All about tube guitar amplifiers" by gerald weber, ISBN: 978-0-9641060-3-1 which talks about back in the early days of tube amps, fender amps were made to work with fender single coils and stay clean (this was when distortion was considered bad)... and gibson amps were designed to stay clean with the hotter humbuckers.  put a gibby into a fender amp from those days and you got nasty breakup (aparently)... a fender into a gibson amp and t sounded really weak.  then along came Randall Smith and put more gain in a fender preamp and you got mesa boogies.

what's my point.... well some of the amps in the POD are vintage, and are modelled just as the real amps are (bugs notwithstanding) and back in the day all amps weren't designed to work with all guitars, some combinations just sounded bad.

now I'm not saying that's the case here, nor am I trying to start another discussion about this.... but the differences between a strat and a les paul into the same amp, are why people like different amps.  it's horses for courses...

anyway... just throwing that out there... not trying to prove any points, just saying every possible combination of gear (including different amps in a POD) wont give you a dream rig.... only some will... and it's all about personal preference.

I would agree that all guitar/amp combinations may not be ideal. But in my case it seems the Strat sounds better with pretty much every amp in the HD500. With the Strat I always feels like there is some headroom left making for better touch response and dynamics. With the HB guitar I always feel like everything is turned up to 11.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by AZGdude on 2011-03-04 10:14:51

silverhead wrote:

I also think that HarryN's contribution and insight here is something that is being overlooked by many people experiencing the fizz/clip symptoms:
http://line6.com/community/thread/58114?tstart=30

Ifyour inputs are using the default Input 1 = Guitar; Input 2 = Same then there is an efective doubling of the input guitar signal. Since we already know the input level is part of what causes the trouble, I believe many people could reduce the symptoms by changing Input 2 to Aux. This would nullify Input 2 and ensure that the guitar input is being fed into the HD only once. For dual path tones you may need to retain Input 2.

Thanks for the info. I will have to give it a try.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by Rowbi on 2011-03-04 10:22:10

@silverhead: no worries mate.   Before I had a 500 too I kept telling people to use the switch on the back to select studio/dual/live when that setting is only on the 300/400. Lol



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by MickSlick on 2011-03-05 19:20:51

I bit the bullet and purchased another HD 500 given the pending firmware update and not wanting to give up.  I have been tweaking a bunch and have made some major progress on getting "expected" tones out of the box and dealing with the clipping issue with my humbuckers.  Though there is still some clip, I have now reached a point where it is very usable and best of all, pleasing to listen to.  Here are my major breakthroughs

1)  The Master Volume setting is key.  Anything less than the dial at max or slightly less than max messes up the quality of the amp models in a big way, and also creates and contributes to artifacting and fizz when driving models with the Master turned down.  IMO the Master dial is essentially the same as the old output dial on the back of the XTLive.  Like the XTLive, if outuput is reduced too much the tones lose life and sonic quality.  Given that the "HD 500 Edit" software does not have a master volume control (like Gearbox does), since I was direct into my studio monitors I was relying on the Master dial to dial back volume, well this screwed allot of things up.  A primary example was the AC30 TB sounded like a lifeless fizzy mess if the drive was much above 25. Leaving the Master on full dramatically changed the tone and now it is sounding and responding as expected.  To solve the volume issue for editing I am now going through a sound card out to the monitors, which gives me volume control through the sound card, which is much more like a true master volume control.

The "Master" dial, should really be labeled output and probably shouldn't be placed so accessibly, it should be much like the XTLive where it is a less accessible permanent setting type knob.  If it acted like a true master volume, that is, it would reduce volume with out losing tonality on the amp. models, then it would be fine as is.  Also, not including a "master volume" control in the edit software further exasperates this issue.  Bottom line, I think this is where the design fell a bit short.  Ideally there would still be a "output" setting control on the back of the unit, and a true "Master Volume" dial where the current "Master" dial is.

2) The mixer volume level also affects tone if changed too much off of the flat 0.0 level, especially when going down in volume.  Very similar to what the Master dial does.  Again, relying on either the mixer or the master to adjust volume to "listening" levels monkeys with the amp sims in a significant way. Similar to the "Master" dial, the mixer volume isn't acting like a true master volume control, it's impacting tone too much.

3) Based on ideas from the "hiss" thread, changing Input source 1 to "guitar" and Input source 2 to anything but guitar i.e. mic, aux etc.... makes a significant positive impact to the humbucker overload issue.

There is still some artifacting with Humbuckers, but not nearly as bad, making progress

Cheers



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by eejk98 on 2011-03-06 06:13:29

I've been doing further testing on my HD500 to dig deeper into the clipping issue.  I've think the fizz issue is frequency dependent, rather than just input level dependent:

Using a patch with nothing but a BF Double with 0% gain, mixer at 0dB, (and output as studio/direct, and input 1 as guitar / input 2 as aux), I can hear a little bit of the clipping when strumming even moderately lightly, when my guitar tone pot is on full (no surprises so far - this is what the thread is all about).  However, if I then roll tone fully off on my guitar ('56 reissue LP with P90s), the strange fizzy distortion becomes very obvious.

It would seem as if the higher frequencies come through the modelling pretty much clean, but the lower frequencies are the primary cause of fizz / clipping.  This is the case regardless whether I use headphone output / into an amp using jack output / record on computer using USB cable.

My next step was to return my guitar's tone pot back to full, and insert a graphic eq in front of the BF Double, with the lowest band (80Hz) rolled off -12dB, to test what happens if I remove the lowest frequencies.  This improved the situation, with a considerable reduction in the fizz.  Rolling some of the next band (220Hz) off too reduced fizz even further, but by then the guitar tone started to sound a bit too thin and brittle to be usable.

To me this frequency dependent fizz / clipping does not seem to fit the explanations of the issue given so far, because:

a) If the clipping was caused by realistic modelling of cross-over distortion, as suggested by Line 6, I don't understand why the lower frequencies would be impacted so heavily, while the higher frequencies come through nearly ok

b) if the issue was the actual gain being higher than shown at 0% setting (as also suggested by Line 6), I would have expected both low and high frequencies to be clipping, whereas the clipping actually appears to be a real problem only for bass frequencies, rather than an overall signal level issue.

I could replicate the fizz becoming more obvious using rolled-off guitar tone pot on a number of the HD500 amps at 0% gain (e.g. J45, Hiway, Super O, Gibtone), so it doesn'ty seem to be specific to the BF Double model.

Just speculating here, but could the issue actually be a problem with modelling of crossover distortion for lower frequencies, or some other component of modelling for low frequencies?

I'd be surprised if what I've discovered here will be fixed by a new firmware changing what level of gain the '0%' display refers to...

Looking forward to the firmware fix to find out.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by Jose7822 on 2011-03-06 10:32:22

MickSlick,

A few days ago, I called Line6 to ask about gain staging and I was told that the Master Volume needs to be at a level where you obtain unity gain when the POD HD is bypassed (whatever that ends up being for your particular setup), which makes sense to me.  On the other hand, you're saying that you lose tone when the Master Volume is anything but full level.  Now the question is, did you compare all of this using the same level of loudness?  Otherwise you're not making a fair comparison since we tend to hear louder as "better".  As an amateur audio engineer, I am very cautious about things like this when other people state them and that's why I ask.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by AZGdude on 2011-03-06 10:48:10

eejk98 wrote:

I've been doing further testing on my HD500 to dig deeper into the clipping issue.  I've think the fizz issue is frequency dependent, rather than just input level dependent:

Using a patch with nothing but a BF Double with 0% gain, mixer at 0dB, (and output as studio/direct, and input 1 as guitar / input 2 as aux), I can hear a little bit of the clipping when strumming even moderately lightly, when my guitar tone pot is on full (no surprises so far - this is what the thread is all about).  However, if I then roll tone fully off on my guitar ('56 reissue LP with P90s), the strange fizzy distortion becomes very obvious.

It would seem as if the higher frequencies come through the modelling pretty much clean, but the lower frequencies are the primary cause of fizz / clipping.  This is the case regardless whether I use headphone output / into an amp using jack output / record on computer using USB cable.

Interesting findings eejk98. I guess this kind of takes us full circle, because it has been long thought this problem might be frequency dependent. However, I don't think anyone ever came up with a theory as which frequencies.

Your theory makes some sense to me because one of the other differences between my Strat and ESP with HBs is that the Strat as standard 9-42s on it while the ESP has hybrid 9-46s. I tend to prefer the stronger thump of 10s, but the ease of bending 9s so I compromised on hybrid 9-46s. I have been planning on trying hybrid 9-46s on the Strat and hybrid 10-52's on the ESP, but this makes me have second thoughts.

For those that have this clipping/fizz problme. What size strings are you using?



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by Jose7822 on 2011-03-06 10:52:19

Eejk98,

Keep in mind that lower frequencies distort more easily than higher ones, so rolling off the lows will clean up the sound as you've discovered.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by MickSlick on 2011-03-06 13:22:49
Regarding "loudness" - to my ears, patches at all levels of volume hold the tone as intended when the Master is dialed full, or close to full.   In fact what clued me in to trying this was realizing that on my old XT, if I didn't have the output close to max I started to lose dynamics and tone.  In the XT's case I kept the output at the same level regardless of what I was doing, at home the Gear box software had the "monitor volume" control, which essentially acted as a master volume, thus I was able to work the patches through my studio monitors and maintain tone.  When I would go through a PA, the sound man would just adjust the levels to match what my POD was giving him and all was o.k.  So, once I moved the Master dial to max on the HD500, and adjusted overall volume through either a independent mixer or through tweaking the amplifier volume level, I started to get the sounds I was expecting, full and rich with dynamics.  And, as stated in my previous comments, having the master lowered was contributing to the crappy fizzy/ artifacting sounding stuff.  Loudness, hasn't been a significant factor, the tones are holding much better at all levels of volume now.

Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by eejk98 on 2011-03-07 07:31:13

AZGdude wrote:

For those that have this clipping/fizz problme. What size strings are you using?

I'm using 10-52's, and as described in my previous messages, I get a lot of fizz / clipping with tone rolled off when using the BF Double.

However, I am doubting that the fizz would be so much more obvious for bass than treble due to some natural tendency for bass frequencies to distort first - never heard anything similar to this fizz when I've played through real class A/B valve amps (including a number of Fenders).  I'm not writing off my hypothesis of some issues in modelling impacting the lower frequencies just yet...



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by MickSlick on 2011-03-07 15:14:17
Update - Though I have made substantial progress in getting quality tones out of the HD500, the hash / fizz is still present, just not as overwhelming now.  Just waiting on the fix in the firmware, once they deal with this issue it will be good to go.

Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by AZGdude on 2011-03-10 07:48:08

Updated first post to reflect the current status of the issue.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by ricksox on 2011-03-11 10:20:27

Hi guys, just wanted to jump in and give you guys an update. I apologize for not being able to update you guys sooner.

A couple of small bugs have been found in the next POD firmware update and our test department is waiting on a new build from engineering that resolves these issues. We have addressed the "harshness" issue and I think you guys will be satisfied with it. No ETA on a release but we are very close.

Line6Miller



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by frankencat on 2011-03-11 10:39:49

Thanks for the update. I have decided to keep my HD500 in hopes that you will get these issues sorted out. Thanks.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by MarekRos on 2011-03-11 10:49:47

Just out of curiosity, what do you mean by new build from engineering... Are you redesigning the hardware as well as the software?



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by ricksox on 2011-03-11 10:51:16

MarekRos wrote:

Just out of curiosity, what do you mean by new build from engineering... Are you redesigning the hardware as well as the software?

No. We refer to internal software and firmware releases as "builds" because they are literally being programmed or "built" by engineering.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by MarekRos on 2011-03-11 10:52:12

I felt like it was a stupid question after I asked... Thanks



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by telecaster3 on 2011-03-11 11:03:14

@MarekRos  :  The only stupid question is the unasked one ;-)

Thanks, Line6Miller for the update



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by ricksox on 2011-03-11 11:08:09

telecaster3 wrote:

@MarekRos  :  The only stupid question is the unasked one ;-)

Thanks, Line6Miller for the update

Agreed.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by AZGdude on 2011-03-11 11:56:10

Thanks for the update Line6Miller. I think a lot of people, including myself, are really looking forward to this firmware update.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by cGil on 2011-03-11 11:58:38

Whoooopeeee! 

Thanks for the update on the pending update.     Sounds like very good news to me.

Gil...



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by AZGdude on 2011-03-11 12:05:33

Line6Miller wrote:

No ETA on a release but we are very close.

I feel like the proverbial kid on the endless summer car trip with mom and dad.

Line6Miller... are we there yet?



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by Bluestone on 2011-03-11 13:19:56

Very cool...thanks ! Great update...


OM



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by meambobbo on 2011-03-11 14:00:59

BUT WE WANT IT NOW!  hehe.  thanks for the update.

as long as we are divulging such info before release time, is this update simply dealing with this issue, or are there other changes as well?



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by ricksox on 2011-03-11 14:04:15

meambobbo wrote:

BUT WE WANT IT NOW!  hehe.  thanks for the update.

as long as we are divulging such info before release time, is this update simply dealing with this issue, or are there other changes as well?

Pretty sure there will be some other fixes but I don't have too much in the way of details just yet.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by chimp_spanner on 2011-03-11 15:22:34

I think as long as there is a changelog this time - a proper, detailed one, we can start to make some progress here. I've been very critical of the HD, but I want it to work as much as the next person. I think we all do. But seeing how we're all effectively helping in the development of the final product people buy in a year or two's time, it'd be nice to be clued in on what's being changed. It'll make comparisons between firmware versions a lot easier and hopefully get us all to where we want to be, quicker!



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by Texxxxx on 2011-03-11 15:23:18

Line6Miller wrote:

meambobbo wrote:

BUT WE WANT IT NOW!  hehe.  thanks for the update.

as long as we are divulging such info before release time, is this update simply dealing with this issue, or are there other changes as well?

Pretty sure there will be some other fixes but I don't have too much in the way of details just yet.

That answer is a far cry from:

We’ve got some cool things coming down the pipe that I think you guys will really like.

Line6Miller

Are the cool things gone...did I miss them?  Say it ain't so, Joe...



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by silverhead on 2011-03-11 15:27:54

Think of the pipe as containing more than one update.................



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by variableresults on 2011-03-11 18:03:57

Line6Miller wrote:

meambobbo wrote:

BUT WE WANT IT NOW!  hehe.  thanks for the update.

as long as we are divulging such info before release time, is this update simply dealing with this issue, or are there other changes as well?

Pretty sure there will be some other fixes but I don't have too much in the way of details just yet.

Do you know if we will get a proper changelog this time around?  I know a lot of people would be much happier not having to actually test to see if unreported things are fixed (see the main bug thread).  I think there are a lot of folks who are claiming that tones changed on certain models that weren't reported in the official changelog for 1.20 (the Recto, for example).

Edit:  Just saw Chimp's post before me; I'm glad I'm not the only one who wants to see all the changes documented



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by timowens on 2011-03-11 19:04:43

variableresults wrote:

Line6Miller wrote:

meambobbo wrote:

BUT WE WANT IT NOW!  hehe.  thanks for the update.

as long as we are divulging such info before release time, is this update simply dealing with this issue, or are there other changes as well?

Pretty sure there will be some other fixes but I don't have too much in the way of details just yet.

Do you know if we will get a proper changelog this time around?  I know a lot of people would be much happier not having to actually test to see if unreported things are fixed (see the main bug thread).  I think there are a lot of folks who are claiming that tones changed on certain models that weren't reported in the official changelog for 1.20 (the Recto, for example).

Edit:  Just saw Chimp's post before me; I'm glad I'm not the only one who wants to see all the changes documented

I agree, a lot of people spent an awful lot of their own personal time trying to decipher the last firmware update, a complete and detailed change log is really not too much to ask. Why on earth would Line6 let their customers try to figure it out for themselves, that just doesn't make any sense.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by Texxxxx on 2011-03-11 20:53:39

silverhead wrote:

Think of the pipe as containing more than one update.................

I would like to think of the pipe as popping out a complete and finished product.

It would be nice to have a product that I could feel I could commit to.  As it stands, yes, it sounds very good; however I always feel like I'm just playing around with it, waiting for the final tools to arrive so I can finish setting up my HD.

I mean, we're musicians...I really don't want to spend all my time dicking around with this product that Line 6 wasn't really finished developing (but released anyway), and then dicking around with it, again, when they get it to where they wanted it to be in the first place.

It's not 'The HD Game'  that the developers add a few maps or weapons to in order to keep you interested...'ooooh, they released a new level today'.  It's not Quake, it's an instrument.  I would like to have all the tools that the HD can offer at my disposal, set them up as I like them, and then forget about them and get down to playing music.

I feel like I am just waiting for it to be finished, so I can start in earnest, and in the meantime playing Devil's Advocate to pass the time.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by arcticman on 2011-03-11 21:04:09

Agreed... it has become a waiting game...



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by silverhead on 2011-03-12 07:10:12

Texxxxx wrote:

silverhead wrote:

Think of the pipe as containing more than one update.................

I would like to think of the pipe as popping out a complete and finished product.

It would be nice to have a product that I could feel I could commit to.  As it stands, yes, it sounds very good; however I always feel like I'm just playing around with it, waiting for the final tools to arrive so I can finish setting up my HD.

I mean, we're musicians...I really don't want to spend all my time dicking around with this product that Line 6 wasn't really finished developing (but released anyway), and then dicking around with it, again, when they get it to where they wanted it to be in the first place.

It's not 'The HD Game'  that the developers add a few maps or weapons to in order to keep you interested...'ooooh, they released a new level today'.  It's not Quake, it's an instrument.  I would like to have all the tools that the HD can offer at my disposal, set them up as I like them, and then forget about them and get down to playing music.

I feel like I am just waiting for it to be finished, so I can start in earnest, and in the meantime playing Devil's Advocate to pass the time.

Nobody needs to be an early adopter if they don't want to be. You're free to just ignore the product until it reaches the level of stability and maturity that you're comfortable with. Sounds like you feel the HD500 is not there yet - so ignore it. Maybe now would be a good time to buy the X3 generation - it's very stable - a complete and finished product. You may need to go to the used market to get the X3 Live if that's the version you want, but they're available for a good price now.

Meanwhile, I like having access to the new generation before it's 'complete and finished' - that's what firmware updates are for. I expect that in a year or so it will be more mature, but it's plenty good and very useful now for my purposes.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by Texxxxx on 2011-03-12 07:31:06

silverhead wrote:

Texxxxx wrote:

silverhead wrote:

Think of the pipe as containing more than one update.................

As it stands, yes, it sounds very good.

I expect that in a year or so it will be more mature, but it's plenty good and very useful now for my purposes.

Can't argue that...



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by markbrid on 2011-03-12 07:50:36

silverhead wrote:

Texxxxx wrote:

silverhead wrote:

Think of the pipe as containing more than one update.................

I would like to think of the pipe as popping out a complete and finished product.

It would be nice to have a product that I could feel I could commit to.  As it stands, yes, it sounds very good; however I always feel like I'm just playing around with it, waiting for the final tools to arrive so I can finish setting up my HD.

I mean, we're musicians...I really don't want to spend all my time dicking around with this product that Line 6 wasn't really finished developing (but released anyway), and then dicking around with it, again, when they get it to where they wanted it to be in the first place.

It's not 'The HD Game'  that the developers add a few maps or weapons to in order to keep you interested...'ooooh, they released a new level today'.  It's not Quake, it's an instrument.  I would like to have all the tools that the HD can offer at my disposal, set them up as I like them, and then forget about them and get down to playing music.

I feel like I am just waiting for it to be finished, so I can start in earnest, and in the meantime playing Devil's Advocate to pass the time.

Nobody needs to be an early adopter if they don't want to be. You're free to just ignore the product until it reaches the level of stability and maturity that you're comfortable with. Sounds like you feel the HD500 is not there yet - so ignore it. Maybe now would be a good time to buy the X3 generation - it's very stable - a complete and finished product. You may need to go to the used market to get the X3 Live if that's the version you want, but they're available for a good price now.

Meanwhile, I like having access to the new generation before it's 'complete and finished' - that's what firmware updates are for. I expect that in a year or so it will be more mature, but it's plenty good and very useful now for my purposes.

I became an early adopter of the HD500 as it was a gift.  I was planning to buy one in a year however, after the bugs are ironed out, as most any new software based platform will have such issues.  Some companies are unusually good at getting things right the first time, such as Roland, but what is happening now with the HD is normal IMHO.

The XT and X3 technology is good, and the HD isn't quite 100% yet, but it is obvious even now that the HD platform is light years ahead of the XT and X3 in its potential.  Enough of the currently available HD tones exist to show its clear superiority.  I would suggest that a user, if they need a Line 6 product now, buy one of the XT Live's or X3's at a price where they can get their money back in a year or so.  Even better, if the user can handle the HD's issues now, go with that and be patient waiting for the updates.  I still have my XT Live, but am going forward with the HD as it can get FAR better results, and in my case its shortcomings can be dealt with now.  I am 100% confident that Line 6 will make the HD their best standalone modeler yet, given enough time.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by kevmomuny on 2011-03-12 09:52:34

thanks so much for the update.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by chimp_spanner on 2011-03-13 03:50:07

This has been the lesson here for me - I saw something newer than what I had, and made a huge mistake in selling what I *know* works for me in order to buy its successor.

Of course, the reality has been that the HD is NOT a successor to the X3 as it appears to have been designed with different aims in mind (I'm seeing an overwhelming majority of happy live players vs studio dwellers).

I can understand L6's need to get the most business they can, but I think if it was more clearly stated that it's a new tool for live musicians, I might've held on to my X3. I may also have been naive in thinking that after release we'd be treated to new packs, new models, etc. rather than a slow stream of fixes and updates to the core functionality of the unit.

Recently I got hold of an X3 Pro, so my HD rage has subsided, and I'm looking at this with a cooler head, not least because I can actually get on with some work again! I'm holding on to my HD500 to see what the firmware updates bring. There's the possibility that even once it's "fixed", it just might not be right for me. But I'll at least give it a chance.

Like I said though it's been a tough (and expensive) lesson for me. Although in my defense, I did kind of assume that the development history of the X3 (and the advances in the modeller market) would've given L6 a good starting point, and they would know things to watch out for. Surely they remember the XT fizz threads too Bad, bad times!!



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2011-03-13 04:43:08

chimp_spanner wrote:

I did kind of assume that the development history of the X3 (and the advances in the modeller market) would've given L6 a good starting point, and they would know things to watch out for. Surely they remember the XT fizz threads too Bad, bad times!!

The difference between the fizz threads of old (Oh, the horror!) and this current thing, is that what's happening now is a bug that's about to be fixed.  Thank goodness!  Although I can't say this bug has affected me at all.

I also wouldn't go comparing this to the X3.  I'd say it's more like the PODxt at its release version.  Still a work in progress.  They not only had to completely rewrite the modeling algorithms, but also their entire suite of capture tools used to gather that data.  It's a gigantic effort.  Although, it's even different from the XT in that the XT took advantage of Vetta technology.  In the case of the HD, there was no amp predecessor.  The whole effort was entirely from scratch.

I still think there's a lot more right with this unit than there is wrong, for both live playing and recording.  It's the first POD that I've been truly happy with for both things and it's only going to get better from here on out.  All I can say is thank God this thing wasn't the X3 Live at release.  Does nobody remember the nightmare of the plastic back, the flaking gold paint, shorting contact points, bad USB hardware, flaky pedal photo sensors, numerous show stopping software glitches?  All lessons learned from the X3, which is now a mature product after a bunch of updates.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by chimp_spanner on 2011-03-13 06:28:57

Yeah again, getting the X3 Pro (an, as you said, 'mature product') has kind of calmed me down...a bit I joined the X3 party long after many of these issues had been ironed out, so I appreciate that maybe I'm viewing it in a more favorable light! I guess what I meant was that one would hope with each successive release, the maturation period becomes shorter as they learn from user feedback, and they know the problem areas to avoid so these things are as little of an issue as possible. Some of the problems here were entirely avoidable. I spotted a bug myself that I feel should've been apparent had anyone bothered to use it in the way many of us are likely to.

That said, I think you're right in saying there is more right (overall) than wrong, although maybe some of the things that are wrong for me are a bigger deal than for others. I think as long as L6 can strike a good balance between confidence in their product and transparency with their users over known issues and changes (we all know it's not a perfect product...yet), then we can all move forward with it.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by lowyaw on 2011-03-14 01:40:01

Karl_Houseknecht wrote:

it's only going to get better from here on out. 

i couldn't agree more

Line6Miller, thanks for keeping us posted.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by mput on 2011-03-14 03:58:23

Please answer about the changelog please.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2011-03-14 06:22:59

chimp_spanner wrote:

one would hope with each successive release, the maturation period becomes shorter as they learn from user feedback

I hope the same thing, and I think it's happening.  As far as I'm aware, this is the first POD release to have end users in the beta.  That said...

Some of the problems here were entirely avoidable. I spotted a bug myself that I feel should've been apparent had anyone bothered to use it in the way many of us are likely to.

That does bother me that anything slipped through.  Which bug were you referring to?  I'm confident that those things will get fixed in a timely manner.

I took my HD500 to its first post-beta performance yesterday and just fell in the love with the thing all over again.  Sure, took a small amount of tweaking in with the full band during rehearsal, but for the most part, my patches from tweaking it at home the day before were nothing short of great.  I played the preamp models into the return of my Mesa combo, so it was all the 500 for the tone.  The only tone shaping options I used were the tone controls on the preamp models.  You could NEVER do that with the X3 or XT, or at least I couldn't.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by chimp_spanner on 2011-03-14 09:08:08

The bug in question relates to the parametric and shift EQ's which, when used post amp, produce some very unusual pseudo stereo effects. Miller confirmed, and it has been passed up to the programming team.

But that kind of thing seems silly to me - like, if you're tweaking a tone for recording, it's going to want some post amp EQ. The effect would've been very noticeable had anyone tried it. *shrugs* just found it weird, BUT at least I know it's been brought to someones attention and will hopefully be in the changelog next time around.

There's also a weird parameter jump with the controls around 12-o-clock, so you'll be tweaking the presence or treble, you hit 12 and it suddenly jumps up.

I have had more success through a poweramp and cab, though. I was running through some crummy Marshall in a practice studio and I'm sure anyone outside would've thought I was playing an Engl. Still found it hard to get the attack I was after, but it's hard to tweak atm without a full rig of my own. For now it's all kit sharing, but I'll work towards my own rig. Would I be asking for trouble if I went DT50? I'm a sucker for using things that are supposed to be used together!



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2011-03-14 09:58:17

chimp_spanner wrote:

The bug in question relates to the parametric and shift EQ's which, when used post amp, produce some very unusual pseudo stereo effects. Miller confirmed, and it has been passed up to the programming team.

But that kind of thing seems silly to me - like, if you're tweaking a tone for recording, it's going to want some post amp EQ.

Yeah, that makes sense.  You'd want to do that.  I guess it depends on how you go about it.  My mode of operation is to capture some of the stuff you don't want along with the stuff you do and then do the post EQ at mixdown, owing to how you never really know what you want until it's in the full mix.  I'm not a big fan of the para EQ in the HD.  Or any of the EQ options for that matter.  I hope they improve.

Would I be asking for trouble if I went DT50? I'm a sucker for using things that are supposed to be used together!

Probably.  Trouble would come from your wife.   I'm a sucker for the same thing you are to the point where I'm getting a DT50 112 combo to go with my 500 for use at smaller venues.  My Mesa combo is fine, but I know how well the 500 works with the DT.  As before when I said the HD500 was the first POD I was truly happy with from a live use perspective, the DT50 is the first amp from Line6 that I'm really happy with from a "real amp" perspective.  Spider Valve MKI was great for very many reasons, but this DT50 takes it to a whole new level with a real guitar tube power section.  I can be happy with the DT50 all by itself with two channels that can be whatever I want them to be.  Plus, its simple.  And I like simple.

Not to get too OT from this thread, but there's a reason why all the live users of the HD/DT are so happy.  They're not experiencing these strange fizzy/clipping things.  (Of course, I'm not experiencing them either when going direct, but that's probably in how I use it.)  They're experiencing really good live tone with their PODs.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by Mr_Arkadin on 2011-03-14 11:24:00

chimp_spanner wrote:

The bug in question relates to the parametric and shift EQ's which, when used post amp, produce some very unusual pseudo stereo effects. Miller confirmed, and it has been passed up to the programming team.

But that kind of thing seems silly to me - like, if you're tweaking a tone for recording, it's going to want some post amp EQ. The effect would've been very noticeable had anyone tried it. *shrugs* just found it weird,

First off I noticed Karl's post took us to 666 replies. Not a good omen so I'm replying quickly .

Whilst I was personally testing the 300 not the 500 in beta, something like this might very well not get noticed. I know the way I work is to get the basic sound down onto tape (well disc as it is now) and use my computer's EQs as they are going to be more flexible than the Pod's and of a higher quality. In that scenario you can see that I never even tried the EQ - I didn't have time to test every effect in there so I'm going to concentrate on the ones I would use in the way that I would use them. You just hope that other people work differently to you and will come across a scenario you would never use and find other bugs.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by MickSlick on 2011-03-17 11:49:32

Someone has to ask this and give the thread a bump - A week ago we were "very close" to having the firmware update done that addresses this issue.  Just checking in and still patiently waiting for the firmware update.  It wouldn't be as much of a issue typically regarding the wait, however for me as well as other numerous documented users, our HD500's are essentially sidelined until this gets some resolution.  I would love to dive into using my $500 investment in lieu of just admiring it's stunning looks.

Happy St Patric's Day Everyone!



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by FrugalGuitarist on 2011-03-18 08:11:59

MickSlick wrote:

Someone has to ask this and give the thread a bump - A week ago we were "very close" to having the firmware update done that addresses this issue.  Just checking in and still patiently waiting for the firmware update.  It wouldn't be as much of a issue typically regarding the wait, however for me as well as other numerous documented users, our HD500's are essentially sidelined until this gets some resolution.  I would love to dive into using my $500 investment in lieu of just admiring it's stunning looks.

Happy St Patric's Day Everyone!

While I too am anxiously awaiting the update, let me save you some heart ache. The idea that Line 6 is providing a magic bullet update which will transform the unit from an expensive paperweight to God's greatest gift is a bit far fetched. They've reportedly been working on their new amp modeling for years and your expecting a tonal 180 within a couple months? If you dig the HD500's tones as it is, the update will likely address a key tonal iregularity which IMHO is fairly subtle in nature especially if you've tried any of the workarounds (pre only models, changing the input routing to eliminate the doubled signal, etc) and potentially make it better, but only incrementally. Sure they may add some additional features as well, but I won't be holding my breath.  I would expect a massive firmware update with new amps/effects to be much further down the line if at all. While I wait for whatever's coming down the pike, I'm fully enjoying the unit for both practice and performance. Realistically, I would suggest you try to learn to love it as it is or look to another product which might more fully suite your needs...



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by gtrman100 on 2011-03-18 08:43:59

Wise words indeed...



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by spaceatl on 2011-03-18 10:47:37

I really do understand your frustration in terms of a feature that is key to your usage is broken and made the HD500 a paperweight for your desk...I really do get that...I do not get your generalization that this is true for everyone, because it is NOT the case for a lot of folks I know that are performing with HD500s now on the same firmware you have...We all use this stuff different ways and if the HD500 not usable for you, then I cannot imagine why you bought one in the first place...

I don't intend any disrespect towards you and I understand you wanting to convey your situation that HD500 is NOT usable for YOU. Your critiques are valuable and thank you for making them...

I just want to convey to you that I don't like being lumped into a generalization that isn't true for me...jus' sayin'...

Have a great weekend!



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by KozMcCharlie on 2011-03-18 11:10:57

I agree... I get the harsh fizzles that have been discussed extensively here and other places, and I'm not just staring at the POD... It's very usable for gigs and rehearsals. I'm also pretty much the only one hearing it in the context of the mix and, even then, only sporadically. For me, it's just a matter of making patches that downplay the issue. It is possible to do that and have a totally satisfying experience with the HD. I'm also looking forward to the fix, but I think that there's no call for getting all melodramatic about it and certainly no reason to say that we've all relegated the POD to paperweight status. That only serves as fodder for misinformation and erroneous dismissal of a great sounding tool for those who are researching a purchase.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by MickSlick on 2011-03-18 11:30:33

I should clarify a bit, I'm not giving up on the HD500, however, trying to work around the artifacting is just too much work right now, and that's kind of the point, it shouldn't be that much "work" it should just work.  Frugal's recent post kind of reinforces this  sic(work out the double input, do the volume pedal fix etc... etc...) I really don't want to use my time resources jumping through hoops to get "close" to a good basic tone that should be there in the first place.

Here's the deal, I can hear fantastic tones in my HD500, they are there and they excite me.  In my case I use my POD's as direct solutions only - Direct for recording, and most importantly direct into a house PA for live use.  To my ears, and I know this has been discussed multiple times, the only thing messing up the whole tonal nirvana that is in the 500 is that darned artifacting unpleasantness coming through the power amp modeling.  This is why I'm waiting and hoping that they will be able to nail it out.  For me it is a so close yet so far thing, it's like having a drop dead gorgeous wife or girl friend but she has this constant habit of burping up nasty garlic laced odor, if we can work out the garlic thing, all would be good.

In the mean time my XTLive is working like I hope the 500 will some day, that is, dial in some moderate drive on the AC30, throw some effects in, and have it singing in seconds, then go from there.  I am no where close to be able to doing that right now on the 500 because of the issue.  I hope this makes sense.

And

Happy Friday



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by cGil on 2011-03-18 13:14:36

Yep, it's the curse of the zircon encrusted gold plated eardrum syndrome, all over again.  I know that pain.  Turns the idea of building the perfect rig into a lifelong obsession.  And it makes catching a movie at most big theaters unbearable.    But I find the table-clearing garlic burps are second only to the dreaded room evacuating pickled egg farts!  At the Cliff House restauarant in SF, those combined gassious emminations are a dead giveaway that somebody on the staff's been snackin' on pot stickers at the Yet Wah again. 

Gil...



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by Deny777 on 2011-03-18 13:43:29

MickSlick wrote:

I should clarify a bit, I'm not giving up on the HD500, however, trying to work around the artifacting is just too much work right now, and that's kind of the point, it shouldn't be that much "work" it should just work.  Frugal's recent post kind of reinforces this  sic(work out the double input, do the volume pedal fix etc... etc...) I really don't want to use my time resources jumping through hoops to get "close" to a good basic tone that should be there in the first place.

Here's the deal, I can hear fantastic tones in my HD500, they are there and they excite me.  In my case I use my POD's as direct solutions only - Direct for recording, and most importantly direct into a house PA for live use.  To my ears, and I know this has been discussed multiple times, the only thing messing up the whole tonal nirvana that is in the 500 is that darned artifacting unpleasantness coming through the power amp modeling.  This is why I'm waiting and hoping that they will be able to nail it out.  For me it is a so close yet so far thing, it's like having a drop dead gorgeous wife or girl friend but she has this constant habit of burping up nasty garlic laced odor, if we can work out the garlic thing, all would be good.

In the mean time my XTLive is working like I hope the 500 will some day, that is, dial in some moderate drive on the AC30, throw some effects in, and have it singing in seconds, then go from there.  I am no where close to be able to doing that right now on the 500 because of the issue.  I hope this makes sense.

And

Happy Friday

LOL my feelings exactly, great analogy

I'm sincerely hoping Line 6 have all these sorted out soon so we can spend more time playing guitar and less time tweaking the POD



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by JerryWawak on 2011-03-18 13:51:19

I agree 100%.  I hear great tones, but that fizzy/harshness/digital clipping is kind of ruining the whole experience for me.   It's like saying the only thing wrong with my new Camaro is you have to jump start it every morning and tightne the lug nuts every 20 miles.   I just want to plug it in and play.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by teabagger on 2011-03-18 14:53:29

Just wanted to agree with this, there are great tones inside the hd500, but i spend more time tweaking, trying to get rid of the nasty than i do playing, will probably sell and move on if 1.3 does not address some of these issues.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by laforce58 on 2011-03-18 15:23:45

For everyone bugged by the noise, could be we have kind of a "Clan of the Cave Bear" situation here.  While there's no doubt a lot of people are using the HD in a way that excludes the offending setups, it seems just as possible to me that you're hearing things that others just can't hear.  I had a music theory instructor in college who had Absolute Pitch.  Not Relative and not Perfect.  Absolute.  Every day, he would come into class singing a note, then walk up to the piano and play that note.  Dead on every time.  He was a spooky dude.  He could tell you the pitch of the squeaking hinge on the door to the room.  I once played him a particularly insane passage from a Gentle Giant tune.  He turned around and started transcribing it on the blackboard's staff lines . . . on the fly.

His "gift" was a mixed blessing, though.  It totally ruined orchestral music for him because he could tell when the third violin was 8 cents flat, and that's all he could hear.  While his abilities bordered on the freakish, it would have been pretty ridiculous for us to mock him because his hearing and pitch-sense was superior to ours.

I hear it, too, and it's pretty frustrating to be so close to nailing the tones you're after, only to have the noise make that handful of models unusable.  But thankfully, for me, that's not the case for everything in the HD500.  Where everything else is concerned, I've been nothing short of astonished by the accomplishments of our L6 friends.  I've heard a lot of crowing from them about incorporating some genuine "feel" into the HD-series, and for my money, they did.  I'm using it primarily as a direct recording solution, and that newly incorporated touch-sensitivity is exactly what I always wanted from this kind of gear, but could never get.  After avoiding the offending amps, building some custom patches and downloading a bunch of flat-out awesome ones from the Custom Tones library, I can't stop playing this thing.  And for me, personally, that makes the HD500 a gigantic leap forward compared to everything else I own from L6.  



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by spaceatl on 2011-03-18 15:32:41

Thanks for the pragmatic explaination...I get it and do hope that the fixes are what folks are looking for when they appear...



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by markbrid on 2011-03-18 15:45:51

Good points here.  In every modeler I have used except for the HD500, including the XT Live, all have a particular nasty tonality to them that cannot be removed with any EQ.  The strange thing is for a long time I never heard this tonality, and was happy with the units.  But once I heard that sound, I had to stop using the unit immediately.  I never heard that sound with the XT Live until comparing it directly to the HD500; then it popped out in technicolor. I haven't heard this tonality at all with the HD500, it is very natural sounding.  The clipping is another issue entirely and can be dealt with.

The only way to describe the "modeler illness" is a coloration or emphasis in the mids/upper mids.  The point is if you do not hear a big sonic flaw in your modeler, do NOT go looking for it, just dig it as it is.  That way you won't get sick of it.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by spaceatl on 2011-03-18 16:26:02

I never met an AP...I know some Perfect Pitch dudes and I agree some folks can hear things others do not...But at the sametime I wonder. I have helped quite a few folks around Altanta with thier guitar rigs...The complaint are often very similar...I getting this fizz, fuzz, blops, squeals or whatever the problem might be...Something isn't right, and they are having trouble isolating the problem or working around it...

These have been one on one situations where we are in the same room where I can listen to thier gear, get a really good description of the problem and we can talk about where they want to go and I try to help...Most of the time, it's intonation...probably a good 60% of the time that makes a dramatic improvement that just blows their minds...No way to get good tone out of anything when intonation is whacked...doesn't matter if it's a $20K MaCarty either...bad intonation sounds like A$$ on anything...

Most of the time in my experience of doing this it has turned out to be in the guitar someplace...pickups too close...height and pole peices not adjusted to equalize the volume across the strings...relative height not set where the pickups sum evenly...Good buddy of mine had a stock Gibson LPC (1998 I think) that the pups were wired out of phase relative to each other and the center switch position was pretty much useless...I have found broken coils, bad potting...the list is long...

IMO it is an art to setup a passive guitar for high gain...It isn't difficult...jsut tedious...If anything is rattling in the guitar, it comes right out the speakers with that much gain...I don't use pickup rings because I have had them resonate feedback...springs too...I direct mount because I like high gain too...No stock guitar I have ever bought has been high gain ready...Not at the volumes I play at...but then I don't tend to buy $5000 guitars...

anyway, I don't intend to offend anyone with my little rant, just sharing some things that I have seen for myself...I hear the problem too here and there...To me it is sorta like some of the amp models were captured a little too pushed...But it isn't in all of them...and I do think that they will make things better...I am waiting for the update also...can't wait to hear it...

I am right with you on the feel in the HD...I can feel it cans too...That just blows my mind...It is such a huge leap and so amazing to me that they are able to do that at very reasonable price point...



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by cGil on 2011-03-18 21:42:11

   Yep.  Nothing beats a good tuner.  Except maybe a new tuner!   One of the things I've gotten since trading in my HD500 was a Peterson Classic Stomp; and woah, is it ever accurate!  Runs circles around my old Peterson VS-1.   I gotta reintonate my guitars all over again now!  They're all just a hair off.  Go figure.

And a total ditto on the everything is everything, uh, thing.      It all starts at the guitar.  Definitely gotta lock that hardware down if you want to hear the real tones hiding in your plank. Parts from guys like TonePros and Callaham's are good for helping get some of that tone out of a guitar; but there are a zillion other necessary setup details required to complete the picture, as it were.  Hooray for Dan Erlewine's books is all I gotta say about that.  What happens to the signal after it leaves the guitar is a whole 'nother strange addiction.   Don't EVEN get me started on the value of Zaolla silver wire in the signal path and pedalboard.  Around here, it'd probably just cause a riot anyway.      

Gil...



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by cGil on 2011-03-18 22:10:30

I suppose I should add (in a blatant attempt to get back on topic), that the HD500 is in fact, far too good for its own good.  I could hear everything!   And that was the problem!  The digital hash simply became intolerable for me.   Those who have it and can't hear it, or find it at worst marginally tolerable should consider themselves blessed.  I'm not kidding.  Dog ears carry their own evil curse.

And on a personal note, I'm still not unconvinced some fresh (harsh) caps on the freshy tuned up amps that were prepped for model-capturing might've been involved, but hey, that's just me.  I have to listen to fresh caps break in all the time and that's what they sound like to me.    Actually, I don't, I just listen to momentary samples of 'em during the amp's initial burn-in period, which mostly takes place in blessed silence. There's a suspiciously similar harshness in the upper register of some tone caps until they fully form.   I couldn't take the prospect of an HD500 that had that annoying harshness that wouldn't smooth out in 100 hours playing time like those caps.  Gave it over two months and took the hit on the trade in, so you can't say I didn't give it a fair shot.       

Anyway, time will tell.  I hope Line 6 gets this issue ironed out.  And soon.  Dragging a 40 pound pedalboard around is a real pain.

Gil...



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by FrugalGuitarist on 2011-03-19 08:25:32

Most you guys have completely missed my point.

This isn't some type of golden ear issue. this is some funky stuff going on which is most apperant in a few models. Whether you call it hash, digital cliping, modeled cross over distortion, aliasing, artifacts, whatever. Its there, I'm not argueing that.

What I'm saying is if it bugs you to the point of the unit being unusable when there are several workaround to eliminate it in some cases or greatly reduce it in others, then I would simply move on. If it made it past the years of development Line 6 has spent to date on this product then I have little faith that it would be fixed in a couple months time. Folks complained endlessly about the "fizz" of previous generations and Line 6 never addressed it. This is likely this product generation's fizz. If its unbearable, check out Digitech RP line. They'll not perfect either but they definitely don't model the undesired quirks of amps (ac hum, cross over distortion, ghost notes, etc) going for more idealized tones, and IMHO the effects are better. The biggest reason I'm staying with the HD is I love all the synth/filter effects and the signal chain flexibility and maybe 3 amp models that I find hit my tonal needs.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by teabagger on 2011-03-19 08:40:50

Today out of curiosity i went down to the music store and plugged in my guitar, and found that my playing area is un ideal conditions due to EmI and bad power.... so without trying my hd  in a known good amp friendly enviroment i cant tell what is emi and what is digital aliasing fizz. only clued into this because i put a noise gate infront pod, and noticed that it was still noisy even when  muted with a 6 inch cable from Ns2 to pod input, i still had to use a internal NG to get it quiet. I believe this is a part of my problem.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by Rowbi on 2011-03-20 04:36:54

FrugalGuitarist wrote:

they definitely don't model the undesired quirks of amps (ac hum, cross over distortion, ghost notes, etc) going for more idealized tones, and IMHO the effects are better.

you've basically just described the reason for some people preferring solid state distortion over tube amp distortion.

AC Hum... yeah when it hums too much that's distracting... BUT the side effect of AC hum can create a tonal depth.  why else would some people go to the lengths they do to use the same voltage on their tube amps???  and why would L6 bother to put in a switch for 50 and 60Hz mains if it didn't actually make a difference?

crossover distortion is in all Class A/B and Class B amps, but the extent of it does differ.  remember that all preamp tubes are class A, so you get (what is more easily described as) less fizz when using lower power amp distortion in a class A/B poweramp and crank the preamp drive.  in a cranked class A/B amp (like a marshall JCM800 for example) you would end up lowering the preamp gain because your poweramp tubes start to distort.... maybe you're more of a fan of class A distortion??

Just clarifying that's all...

Peace

Rowbi



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by Rowbi on 2011-03-20 04:51:57

teabagger wrote:

Today out of curiosity i went down to the music store and plugged in my guitar, and found that my playing area is un ideal conditions due to EmI and bad power.... so without trying my hd  in a known good amp friendly enviroment i cant tell what is emi and what is digital aliasing fizz. only clued into this because i put a noise gate infront pod, and noticed that it was still noisy even when  muted with a 6 inch cable from Ns2 to pod input, i still had to use a internal NG to get it quiet. I believe this is a part of my problem.

I'm not 100% sure you're understanding what this whole thread is about.  hums, buzzes, and static noise in the background all the time isn't what this is all about.

I think the title of harsh/fizzy/Digital Clipping is misleading if you don't know what it's about.

the noise is part of the guitar amp sound, and only when you're playing on the verge of the amp starting to distort.  there's a kind of crackle in the background of your guitar tone, which is then made worse if you play harder and really dig in with your pick.  but it is still a direct part of the guitar tone that the full amp models (in some cases) create.

I'm not here to start a new debate, as it's gone full circle many times already, but I'm just trying to point out that if you've got other issues, the fix that's being worked on isn't going to fix them if they're caused by interference from your house or your particular power (if it's dirty).

Cheers

Rowbi



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by guitar4himjic on 2011-03-20 19:46:50

Hey,

So my main 2 amps are the Deluxe Reverb and the Park 75... when I play either one (especially noticeable with the Deluxe), there is a nasty, flubbery, frothy, fizzy distortion on the E, A, and D (sorta on the D) strings.  No matter how lightly I strum, it's there.  The notes are not defined or clear WHATSOEVER. With my Park 75 patches the same thing happens but it's not as bad but you can definitely tell. The notes aren't defined in either case... all I hear is a fuzz pedal type of effect, really creamy and noticeable - completely ruins the sound/useablility.

I think the best way to describe it is to use the image of pouring a can of pop into a glass quickly, and the nasty, disturbing foam on top is the E, A, and D srings, while the G, B, and E strings are the goodness that you'd expect. If i could hear the foam in the same sense that I taste it (frothy, foamy haha) that's what the amps are producing.

My Park 75 patches are all above 85% Drive and my Deluxe Reverb patches are all at about 50-65% drive I think (they are not distorting, Just turned as high as they can go with the volume on 90% to get a normal volume clean tone [which still wasn't loud enough so I had to turn the mixer up]).

Does this relate to what people hear?  It's definitely not a characteristic of the amps!!!! It's stealing all of my joy!!!! I really hope it can be fixed, or I may sell the HD500.

Ian

PS-I don't have any clue or any means of recording a clip which really stinks.  I wish I had an expert user or someone well-versed in this whole area who lived nearby and could physically mess with my board to help me out with this issue... :-/



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by FrugalGuitarist on 2011-03-21 06:27:31

Rowbi wrote:

FrugalGuitarist wrote:

they definitely don't model the undesired quirks of amps (ac hum, cross over distortion, ghost notes, etc) going for more idealized tones, and IMHO the effects are better.

you've basically just described the reason for some people preferring solid state distortion over tube amp distortion.

AC Hum... yeah when it hums too much that's distracting... BUT the side effect of AC hum can create a tonal depth.  why else would some people go to the lengths they do to use the same voltage on their tube amps???  and why would L6 bother to put in a switch for 50 and 60Hz mains if it didn't actually make a difference?

crossover distortion is in all Class A/B and Class B amps, but the extent of it does differ.  remember that all preamp tubes are class A, so you get (what is more easily described as) less fizz when using lower power amp distortion in a class A/B poweramp and crank the preamp drive.  in a cranked class A/B amp (like a marshall JCM800 for example) you would end up lowering the preamp gain because your poweramp tubes start to distort.... maybe you're more of a fan of class A distortion??

Just clarifying that's all...

Peace

Rowbi

AC hum creating tonal depth? No, not buying it. The humbucker was invented to kill AC hum from the guitar and better shielding and grounding has eliminated it in modern amps. The designers of those vintage amps didn't want the AC hum there, they didn't know how to get rid of it. Line 6 put it in for those who get off on the nostalgia of vintage gear and a fetish for accurate modeling of a sepcific sample, it has zero to do with tone. Many of the pros of years past using these amps would have them modded to reduce the noise and tailored tonally.

And there are several methods to control crossover distortion aside from going Class A. I understand that it should realisitaclly be there. But I feel in reality it would be much more subtle. Point of reference, when using the full amp models in the POD into a effects return of a combo the speaker masks much of it. But when monitoring via headphones or FRFR its much more obvious. Perhaps that is more a comentary on the speaker modeling...

guitar4himjic wrote:

Hey,

So my main 2 amps are the Deluxe Reverb and the Park 75... when I play either one (especially noticeable with the Deluxe), there is a nasty, flubbery, frothy, fizzy distortion on the E, A, and D (sorta on the D) strings.  No matter how lightly I strum, it's there.  The notes are not defined or clear WHATSOEVER. With my Park 75 patches the same thing happens but it's not as bad but you can definitely tell. The notes aren't defined in either case... all I hear is a fuzz pedal type of effect, really creamy and noticeable - completely ruins the sound/useablility.

I think the best way to describe it is to use the image of pouring a can of pop into a glass quickly, and the nasty, disturbing foam on top is the E, A, and D srings, while the G, B, and E strings are the goodness that you'd expect. If i could hear the foam in the same sense that I taste it (frothy, foamy haha) that's what the amps are producing.

My Park 75 patches are all above 85% Drive and my Deluxe Reverb patches are all at about 50-65% drive I think (they are not distorting, Just turned as high as they can go with the volume on 90% to get a normal volume clean tone [which still wasn't loud enough so I had to turn the mixer up]).

Does this relate to what people hear?  It's definitely not a characteristic of the amps!!!! It's stealing all of my joy!!!! I really hope it can be fixed, or I may sell the HD500.

Ian

PS-I don't have any clue or any means of recording a clip which really stinks.  I wish I had an expert user or someone well-versed in this whole area who lived nearby and could physically mess with my board to help me out with this issue... :-/

The Deluxe model has an extremely prominently modeled ghost note in the lower registers when the gain is cranked. I believe it to be more prominent in the model than you would experience in real life, but can't speak for the amp they specifically modeled. I've never played a vintage Deluxe.  Not sure what issue your having with the Park, I haven't noticed a problem with it but most my guitars are on the brighter side of the tonal spectrum.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by Rowbi on 2011-03-21 07:32:27

FrugalGuitarist wrote:

Rowbi wrote:

FrugalGuitarist wrote:

they definitely don't model the undesired quirks of amps (ac hum, cross over distortion, ghost notes, etc) going for more idealized tones, and IMHO the effects are better.

you've basically just described the reason for some people preferring solid state distortion over tube amp distortion.

AC Hum... yeah when it hums too much that's distracting... BUT the side effect of AC hum can create a tonal depth.  why else would some people go to the lengths they do to use the same voltage on their tube amps???  and why would L6 bother to put in a switch for 50 and 60Hz mains if it didn't actually make a difference?

crossover distortion is in all Class A/B and Class B amps, but the extent of it does differ.  remember that all preamp tubes are class A, so you get (what is more easily described as) less fizz when using lower power amp distortion in a class A/B poweramp and crank the preamp drive.  in a cranked class A/B amp (like a marshall JCM800 for example) you would end up lowering the preamp gain because your poweramp tubes start to distort.... maybe you're more of a fan of class A distortion??

Just clarifying that's all...

Peace

Rowbi

AC hum creating tonal depth? No, not buying it. The humbucker was invented to kill AC hum from the guitar and better shielding and grounding has eliminated it in modern amps. The designers of those vintage amps didn't want the AC hum there, they didn't know how to get rid of it. Line 6 put it in for those who get off on the nostalgia of vintage gear and a fetish for accurate modeling of a sepcific sample, it has zero to do with tone. Many of the pros of years past using these amps would have them modded to reduce the noise and tailored tonally.

And there are several methods to control crossover distortion aside from going Class A. I understand that it should realisitaclly be there. But I feel in reality it would be much more subtle. Point of reference, when using the full amp models in the POD into a effects return of a combo the speaker masks much of it. But when monitoring via headphones or FRFR its much more obvious. Perhaps that is more a comentary on the speaker modeling...

I'm not talking about interference in a guitar pickup.  I'm talking about AC plate ripple in a tube amp power supply.  50Hz mains gives you a 100Hz AC hum, and 60Hz mains gives you a 120Hz hum.  I think the design of the tube amp power supply and filter caps affects the plate ripple and also the sag.... if you filter with larger caps I think that lowers the hum, but it fixes the power amp sag.  obviously sag is something that's desirable to a lot of people so removing the hum in a real tube amp would remove the ammount of sag which can ruin vintage tone.

At least that's how I understand it from memory of reading several tube amp theory books.... But I could be a little off the point or incorrect.  so if anyone who knows more than I do (maybe Crusty or cGil) please jump in, as I know you are both well skilled in tube amp building.

anyway, all this is pointless.  L6 will fix it as they see fit, but I think if you're hoping for a total reworking of all the amps, I doubt you'll get it.  L6 have already explained what the issue is and that they'll fix that issue.... any other hope will be for more goodies when the 'cool things' come along.  I'm hoping the cool things update coming later will include a 'guitar hero' mode, so I can play better without rehearsing at all



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by FrugalGuitarist on 2011-03-21 07:47:37

Rowbi wrote:

...anyway, all this is pointless.  L6 will fix it as they see fit, but I think if you're hoping for a total reworking of all the amps, I doubt you'll get it.  L6 have already explained what the issue is and that they'll fix that issue.... any other hope will be for more goodies when the 'cool things' come along.  I'm hoping the cool things update coming later will include a 'guitar hero' mode, so I can play better without rehearsing at all

And that was my original post in this thread. If one likes the core tones the POD offers, then the forthcoming update will likely provide a subtle improvement which makes it that much better. If one doesn't like the core tones and/or feels the unit is currently unusable than waiting for the update is going to result in a bunch of dissapointment. I'm not looking for a complete reworking. I really only use 3, maybe 4, amp models and am happy.  The only additional thing I'd like to see is some type of completely clean jazz amp, but I'm not expecting a bunch of new features in the next firmware.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by desso on 2011-03-21 09:33:16
"...thing I'd like to see is some type of completely clean jazz amp..."

Line 6 guys/gals:

He meant to say, Roland Jazz Chorus.

Nudge, Nudge, , Say No More.

The first band I ever played in (many many years ago), the other guitarist had a Jazz Chorus and man he could get some sweet sounds from it.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by Jose7822 on 2011-03-21 10:39:14

The key phrase was "completely clean jazz amp", in my mind that is closer to a Polytone than a Jazz Chorus.

Just saying :-)



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by scotchtape800 on 2011-03-21 12:03:46

Just wanted to say yes I DEFINITELY hear this noise.

Using Bridge pickup on Fender Lonestar (Humbucker) I can definitely hear this.


Using AC30 model, gain between 30% and 45%, the breakup just sounds terrible.

The distortion characteristic sounds very harsh.

Adding any Distortion pedals only serves to make it worse.

I also tried many other models and the distortion characteristics didn't sit that well with me.

Of course using direct out to headphones / keyboard amp, Roland KC-350, as well as FOH and onstage wedges.

Maybe it's just me but when I tried to dial it out, it would lose all life in the tone and sound muddy but less harsh.

Which wasn't really an improvement.

Probably spent about 15 hours on the unit tweaking it so far, and prior to that about 10 hours tweaking my friend's X3 Live over the last week.

I REALLY REALLY hope the update fixes this because I really rely on that AC30 tone.

I compared it to my VOX Tonelab SE and that weird harshness just isn't there, and the gain is higher too.

Seriously, I used to be an L6 "hater" (not really but... just didn't dig the tones I heard).

I was drawn in by the flexibility and M series effects, love that octoverb and particle verb.

The tone paths are serious draws but the harshness is killing me.

Looking forward to it, PLEASE WORK!

Don't make me spend $2K on axe-fx with no particle verb!



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by MickSlick on 2011-03-21 13:34:42
Another good basic description of the "issue" -  Any gain above about 30 on the AC30 going direct is not typical musical gain normally heard through real AC30's (I have one) or in most other AC30 modelers including past Line 6 products.  It is essentially unusable on any setting past 30.  Unfortunately this is my main tone, so it is especially problematic for me.  I am still somewhat surprised that this was found to be normal or even musically pleasing during the modeling process.  Still waiting for an update regarding the firmware.

Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by JerryWawak on 2011-03-21 14:05:31

agree about the AC30.  On the X3 it was my main (90% of the time) tone.    I was very disapointed in the HD AC30.  I hope it is fixed soon.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by MarekRos on 2011-03-21 20:47:46

I agree... I've been using my HD 500 into my Egnater Renegade and found some passable cleans and an all right heavy distortion. I keep feeling that if I tweak it more I can get it closer but I've done about what I can do as far as amp settings... Well, Wednesday is the last day I can return the unit for a full refund (30 day..) Here is the thing... I've used it in my heavy rock band and yes, the modeled Mesa fits better for playing Tool and STP and all that. I can still hear the harshness though.. Today I rehearsed with my cover band for a gig friday and this other band does blues, rock, country and r'n'b... After fiddling with my HD forever I ended up just going straight through my egnater as I could not get a setting with that warm natural clean overdrive (that also SWALLOWS the pick attack as opposed to make it go PLINK) from the HD, in comparison to my amp... Also for medium gain my Egnater is way more marshally, crisp and defined then my HD... So a delimma... I need to make my choice by Wednesday... I do not know when or to what extent firmware will upgrade this... But man, all those in between tones needed for country and blues.... Well, I doubt SRV would play a modeler were he alive today................ It helped with my heavy heavy band, but on this other gig, I am really seeing where it falls short... The break up is harsh (you can almost hear holes in it) versus smooth overdrive pillows..... So.. I'll tweak and tweak... But Wednesday is coming fast.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by lowyaw on 2011-03-22 00:55:56

i have a deep suspicion, that all the problems that arise now with HD modellers were overlooked due to the fact, that Line 6 crew was working / testing the HD floorboard / DT amp combination, as opposed to running things direct. Those who run similar setups, don't complain about unnatural clipping or whatever.

I understand L6's desire to sell things together (HD + DT), and that's probably a neat idea, but it also makes me wonder, if current floorboards are some kind of "live" solution, and will there be a dedicated "studio" gizmo?



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by gtrman100 on 2011-03-22 07:58:19

Do you really believe that in the years of development that went into the Pod, a device that was originally designed as a direct recording device, they never tested it directly into a mixer? Maybe you don't like how it sounds, but I think that your idea is a bit unrealistic.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by JerryWawak on 2011-03-22 08:04:23

I love the way it sounds run into the power amp section of my tube amp.   It's direct to the PA where my problem lies.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by lowyaw on 2011-03-22 08:05:22

well, man, i bought my hd500 first and foremost to be used as a DI recording device. but i refuse to understand how that crackle thing could go unnoticed. hence the idea.

but it DOES sound good plugged into a poweramp / cab. and that's great, but i needed one to be used directly to board. i have other amps to lug around.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by AZGdude on 2011-03-22 09:55:55

lowyaw wrote:

i have a deep suspicion, that all the problems that arise now with HD modellers were overlooked due to the fact, that Line 6 crew was working / testing the HD floorboard / DT amp combination, as opposed to running things direct. Those who run similar setups, don't complain about unnatural clipping or whatever.

I understand L6's desire to sell things together (HD + DT), and that's probably a neat idea, but it also makes me wonder, if current floorboards are some kind of "live" solution, and will there be a dedicated "studio" gizmo?

I have wondered the same thing many times. While I think the DT and Variax stuff is interesting, I don't see myself ever owning either of them. If I want to lug around a big heavy tube amp, there are lots of other options that are better IMHO. I thought about one of the new Variax guitars for a short while because I wanted to add a Strat to my collection. But for less than the price of a Asian made Variax I got an American Deluxe Strat. IMHO you can't beat the real thing for classic sound quality and playability.

What I want from Line 6 and the HD is an all in one amp, cabinet, microphone and effects modeler that uses standard guitars as the source and runs direct to FRFR, PA and studio monitors and sounds great. While there are some great sounds in the HD, I do think all these extraneous devices are making the HD much less than it should/could be. Hopefully Line 6 will soon fix this through firmware updates, but I guess only time will tell.

Speaking of firmware updates. Where is it?



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by lowyaw on 2011-03-22 11:13:24

AZGdude wrote:

lowyaw wrote:

i have a deep suspicion, that all the problems that arise now with HD modellers were overlooked due to the fact, that Line 6 crew was working / testing the HD floorboard / DT amp combination, as opposed to running things direct. Those who run similar setups, don't complain about unnatural clipping or whatever.

I understand L6's desire to sell things together (HD + DT), and that's probably a neat idea, but it also makes me wonder, if current floorboards are some kind of "live" solution, and will there be a dedicated "studio" gizmo?

I have wondered the same thing many times. While I think the DT and Variax stuff is interesting, I don't see myself ever owning either of them. If I want to lug around a big heavy tube amp, there are lots of other options that are better IMHO. I thought about one of the new Variax guitars for a short while because I wanted to add a Strat to my collection. But for less than the price of a Asian made Variax I got an American Deluxe Strat. IMHO you can't beat the real thing for classic sound quality and playability.

What I want from Line 6 and the HD is an all in one amp, cabinet, microphone and effects modeler that uses standard guitars as the source and runs direct to FRFR, PA and studio monitors and sounds great. While there are some great sounds in the HD, I do think all these extraneous devices are making the HD much less than it should/could be. Hopefully Line 6 will soon fix this through firmware updates, but I guess only time will tell.

Speaking of firmware updates. Where is it?

hell yeah. dude, we're EXACTLY in the same boat; and that's why we see the problem so clearly - or hear, for that matter.

i don't mind having a floorboard that would sound great through a tube poweramp and a good 412 cab; but, to me, it's kind of an easier goal to achieve, after all, you have a poweramp and cab doing their business. but in this case, it doesn't really matter if the preamp section is pod hd500 or mesa triaxis + tc gmajor.

what i need is a DI unit

and PODs are exactly  that

for a POD, failing to sound good direct is kinda killing the product, in my more than humble opinion



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by MickSlick on 2011-03-22 14:49:45

Double Post - Sorry



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by MickSlick on 2011-03-22 17:05:52

These last few posts are honing in on the issue at hand, IMHO.  From the beginning, the groundbreaking technology that the POD concept brought forth was to offer a modeling solution that could conceivably replace amps, cabs, Mic's etc... and to get tones rivaling traditional setups going direct through a PA, into a mixing console or just through your home stereo if that's the flat speaker response system you had available at the time.   Line6 evolved it in a quite wonderful way, subsequent releases of POD modeling (XT / X3) got better and closer to real amplifier sound, and offered more and more options for recording and going direct.  Now, I understand that many also used their POD's into power amps, and combo units, which was great they had that option, but in the past there was clearly a commitment to progressing down the "ultimate" goal of being able to fore go a heavy tube / power amp front end and use just the POD.  After all, why would the technology want to do anything less than eventually get so good you can do away with relying on going through amplifier front ends.  They are still heavy, hot, somewhat unreliable, expensive and a pain in the butt to haul around and set up every time you want to live gig.

Fast forward, and again IMHO, whether it was intentional or not, I think the glaring issue with the POD HD family is that we have taken a step backward with regards to the POD Direct to mixer / studio / PA concept.  I do appreciate that their focus was on fewer amps but to make them much more "real" and that in doing so, they had to make a resource cost / benefit decision to fore go many of the bells and whistles the X3 had - but - In doing so, it seems that the focus was more on relying on using external power amp. and cab modeling (i.e. the DT family or running into combo amps) vs. also making sure that the original POD dream of outstanding tone direct was not compromised.  I am afraid that the direct tone was clearly shortchanged and can now even be argued that regardless of the great underlying quality of the pre amp models it has taken the direct solution a step back wards.  There are many who purchased the HD expecting that the "tone" would be improved direct, but, alas it has become a struggle for many users, the feedback is incontrovertible.

I obviously don't know the ins and outs of everything going on, however, it appears the product Line needs to decide if it going to be a one unit fits all or they need to break it into two different paths.  With all the functionality and direct tone quality that has been left off since the X3, it may have made sense to have two separate product lines for the POD family.  One that focuses on utilizing external power amps and cabs and another that focuses on a total modeling process that focuses on studio and direct to PA solutions.  Based on previous responses and posts, I will likely be accused of being a drama queen or overly analytical, however, I have a pair of ears, and I can read clear trends in feedback on boards, and this is clearly a fork in the road for the current HD family.  Does the direct tone become what it should be through some significant firmware fix, or do us direct aficionados need to park our Line 6 focus right now, go back to used X3 Live's and / or look for the next evolution elsewhere?  Of course I am hoping we simply work out the direct quality of tone through the HD and move on, we shall see.

Happy Friday BTW



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by teabagger on 2011-03-22 17:25:53

could not say it better myself.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by Deny777 on 2011-03-22 18:20:52

Like someone at the gear page said, once you hear the fizz it becomes more and more annoying. Just wanted to share a piece of information with you guys, I've finally taken the time to find out what the offending frequency is, ready? It's... exactly 3000 Hz. Try recording a few chords (let each chord ring for a few seconds), then play it back with a parametric EQ set to the aforementioned frequency, Q = 10 and gain -16 dB or less. Turn the EQ on and off during playback and see for yourself.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by scotchtape800 on 2011-03-23 08:00:27

Haha I said something similar there.

I can't wait to try that - I tried using the studio EQ (I think) in a similar manner but I think I stopped at 4Khz and gave up, or maybe I still heard it who knows.

I can confirm the signal doubling if input 2 is set to SAME.

Not sure what it's there for in terms of a single guitar setup.

When set to variax or aux or whatever it helps immensely as stated in other posts, for obvious reasons... gain stages reached later, etc.

However still clipping

Firmware! Firmware!  Haha.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by AZGdude on 2011-03-23 09:41:06

MickSlick wrote:

These last few posts are honing in on the issue at hand, IMHO.  From the beginning, the groundbreaking technology that the POD concept brought forth was to offer a modeling solution that could conceivably replace amps, cabs, Mic's etc... and to get tones rivaling traditional setups going direct through a PA, into a mixing console or just through your home stereo if that's the flat speaker response system you had available at the time.   Line6 evolved it in a quite wonderful way, subsequent releases of POD modeling (XT / X3) got better and closer to real amplifier sound, and offered more and more options for recording and going direct.  Now, I understand that many also used their POD's into power amps, and combo units, which was great they had that option, but in the past there was clearly a commitment to progressing down the "ultimate" goal of being able to fore go a heavy tube / power amp front end and use just the POD.  After all, why would the technology want to do anything less than eventually get so good you can do away with relying on going through amplifier front ends.  They are still heavy, hot, somewhat unreliable, expensive and a pain in the butt to haul around and set up every time you want to live gig.

I for one really hope Line 6 returns to this as their ultimate goal. I am willing to bet that 90%+ of the HDs sold will never be used with a DT amp because it is a step backwards for most users. It is nothing more than a slightly "improved" version of the tube amp and effects pedal board solution that everyone has been using for decades. IMHO there are much better sounding solutions if you want to go the big heavy tube amp and pedal board route. Therefore, I think Line 6 needs to return to focusing on perfecting the HD as an all on one direct solution that also works well with the DT and other tube amps if wanted. If I need to buy a DT to get the best sound out of the HD, I will eventually jump ship to someone who is focused on the all in one direct solution. Avid definitely seems to be heading in the right direction. Yesterday, they released the Eleven Rack expansion pack that greatly improves the Eleven Rack by adding a bunch of new amps, effects and other improvements. Hopefully Line 6 will follow in fast pursuit.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by mput on 2011-03-23 13:32:48

The idea that line6 came out with the pod line to ultimately replace the amp I think is misguided unless back when they came out with the first pod and they said this. If they did they were really stupid. Line6 sells amps. They make a boat load of money off of their amps. Why would they make a product to sink that boat? They wouldn't. Seems to me they saw another market and they wanted their piece of the pie. Companies like Avid doesn’t sell amps (at least not that I’m aware of) so they are trying to make the 11 rack do just that. Just like Fractal Audio. IMO I think these other companies will be the ones to make the greatest improvements in modeling. Nothing to lose and everything to gain



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by Rowbi on 2011-03-23 13:38:40

mput wrote:

The idea that line6 came out with the pod line to ultimately replace the amp I think is misguided unless back when they came out with the first pod and they said this. If they did they were really stupid. Line6 sells amps. They make a boat load of money off of their amps. Why would they make a product to sink that boat? They wouldn't. Seems to me they saw another market and they wanted their piece of the pie. Companies like Avid doesn’t sell amps (at least not that I’m aware of) so they are trying to make the 11 rack do just that. Just like Fractal Audio. IMO I think these other companies will be the ones to make the greatest improvements in modeling. Nothing to lose and everything to gain

hmmm, can you actually name an amp Line 6 make (or has made) that doesn't use modelling technology to some degree?...

If you can I'll eat my hat.... well I would if I had a hat to eat. lol



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by mput on 2011-03-23 13:50:57

i was just replying to the idea the L6 wanted to "replace" amps with the pod... thats all.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by FrugalGuitarist on 2011-03-23 14:24:36

mput wrote:

The idea that line6 came out with the pod line to ultimately replace the amp I think is misguided unless back when they came out with the first pod and they said this. If they did they were really stupid. Line6 sells amps. They make a boat load of money off of their amps. Why would they make a product to sink that boat? They wouldn't. Seems to me they saw another market and they wanted their piece of the pie. Companies like Avid doesn’t sell amps (at least not that I’m aware of) so they are trying to make the 11 rack do just that. Just like Fractal Audio. IMO I think these other companies will be the ones to make the greatest improvements in modeling. Nothing to lose and everything to gain

Line 6 came out with the POD intended primarily for direct recording usage in place of an amp and view 2 different market for their products: studio and stage. Go read the Line 6 company history about the "problems" of recording amps, here's a snippet:

With POD, Line 6 eliminated the need for complicated recording setups with its proprietary technique for simulating the complex interaction of microphones, speaker cabinets and room acoustics

IMHO, there's no question the POD, in there view, was meant to be a replacement for an amp. Also note in their company history no mention of the Flextone, Duotone, HD147, nor Spider amp lines...



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by Rowbi on 2011-03-23 14:37:02

that's right on the money.  the original POD was meant to replace amps.

also, most L6 amps are just PODs with a clean poweramp on the back of them.  with the amp models tweaked a little to sound their best with the included power amp.  e.g. Spider III and SV are XT technology.  spider IV and SV MKII are X3 technology.  the vetta is also XT models, or rather it expended on the initial XT models, and added a few extra twists.  flextone and HD147 I think were POD 2 technology (I may be wrong on the 147 though, that might be XT, and I can't be bothered to double check).

the DT50 is the only amp that's actually using part of a real amp.  it's a real tube power amp that adds a lot of the tone to the overall sound.  it uses POD HD preamp models.. so the fact that the first amp L6 have made that doesn't totally model the whole amp is the DT50.  And that still uses the most advanced modelling L6 has ever done for the preamp voicings... so it doesn't sound like L6 are gonna scrap PODs anytime soon....

but to agree with mput's statement about L6 selling amps... well they're the number 1 amp manufacturer in the world according to some stats.  and they've sold a million spider amps to date.  now in my mind, spider amps have been around a few years, but not really that long.  and there's 1 million out there.  that's a good revenue stream, and to be fair, anything that keeps L6 making money and designing more gear is good in my books.  I don't care

if they start selling waders and rods to fishing dudes, as long as they also keep making me sound so awesome!

Peace

Rowbi



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by scotchtape800 on 2011-03-24 08:37:44

Did you mean an external parametric EQ?

Unfortunately I don't have one

I tried adding an EQ in the last FX slot and I selected the one where you can pick 3KHz... It just dulled the sound down.

Can't really adjust Q on it

Also, the set input 2: variax approach cleans up quite a lot of the problem BUT, the gain staging is still messed up.

I wish there was a master volume in addition to the mixer and amp volume. It's stupid if we can't control the poweramp gain settings except through channel volume with no master volume.  Mixer volume probably won't go high enough... all your patches would end up a lot quieter

Lower gain patches are now sounding a lot better, but I still had HARSH distortion on what I would consider a mid-gain patch.

I had something like:

Noise gate > EQ > Screamer (3oclock gain, 2oclock output) > Tube Compressor (50% threshold, 0% output) > AC30 (30 gain) > delay > reverb

(can't remember exactly, could be less)

Distortion sounded terrible.  Actually most of the distortion stomps I'm not too impressed with.

But I like the reverb, haha.  CAVE FTW!



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by AZGdude on 2011-03-25 10:21:21

Line6Miller,

Any further update on this soon to be released firmware update? It has been nearly 6 weeks since this became an official bug and the natives are definitely getting restless waiting. I have noticed a number of followers of this forum have announced over at TGP they are switching to the Eleven Rack or considering switching now that Avid has released the 11R expansion pack. I little news would be appreciated.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by ricksox on 2011-03-25 13:28:38

AZGdude wrote:

Line6Miller,

Any further update on this soon to be released firmware update? It has been nearly 6 weeks since this became an official bug and the natives are definitely getting restless waiting. I have noticed a number of followers of this forum have announced over at TGP they are switching to the Eleven Rack or considering switching now that Avid has released the 11R expansion pack. I little news would be appreciated.

Yes in fact. Just out today: POD HD500 Fimrware 1.22 Now available for download!

Download it here:

http://line6.com/software/index.html?submit_form=set&hardware=POD+HD500&name=Flash+Memory

Pleasedownload and install Line 6 Monkey software version 1.35 or later*   and use it to update your POD HD500 to this latest version of Flash   Memory. Once you’ve connected your POD HD500 to your computer via USB   port (hubs are not supported) Monkey will recognize your unit and take   you through the update process. The Line 6 Monkey application may be   downloaded here.

POD HD500 v1.22 is a FREE firmware update that contains  several bug fixes and improvements. It  is highly recommended that all  POD HD500 users perform this update.   While these bug fixes will be  welcome by all users, it is important to  note these are not the exciting  new features coming to POD HD500 which  have been cryptically alluded to  by Line6Miller on the Line 6  forums…make sure you stay tuned!

POD HD500 Flash Memory Version 1.22 RELEASE NOTES

What’s new in firmware version 1.22?

  • Greatly reduced audio burst when switching between presets with onboard EXP pedals at minimum

  • Greatly improved preset switching time

  • Amp model Drive knob parameter not accessing its minimum value - FIXED**

  • Incorrect knob positions displayed when saving preset from amp model edit page - FIXED

  • Mixer Pan parameter displayed inaccurately - FIXED

  • 4 Band Shift EQ and Parametric EQ frequency mismatch between left and right channels - FIXED

  • Output signal may become muted upon repeatedly adding and removing FX Loop Block - FIXED

  • Cursor jumps to saved position upon exiting tuner - FIXED

  • Errant DSP over causes noise on some presets which include BF ‘Lux or BF Double - FIXED

  • Minimum MIDI CC value for EXP1/EXP2 not saved with preset - FIXED

  • Selecting Amp Disabled on hardware bypasses amp model in editor – FIXED




* If retaining the POD HD500 presets, it is vital to download and  use  the latest version of Monkey in order for presets to sound as they  did  prior to the update.  Please note this only affects presets with the   Drive knob at lower gain settings.

** The amp model  Drive parameter was discovered to be limited as it  was not reaching its  minimum setting, causing many users to experience  distorted audio with  relatively high output guitar pickups. It is  important to note that  while the Drive is indeed being reduced, there  may not be a significant  decrease to the apparent volume due to some  intelligent, automatic  gain make-up.  This is intentional and by design,  making it possible to  get a clean tone without losing overall volume.   While guitarists with  relatively low output pickups may not notice a  significant difference  within the lower part of the Drive knob,  guitarists using humbuckers or  relatively high output pickups should be  able to back out of  distortion much more easily



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by JerryWawak on 2011-03-25 13:32:05

Thanks!  Can't wait to try it.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by alfaphlex on 2011-03-25 14:05:16

AZGdude wrote:

Line6Miller,

Any further update on this soon to be released firmware update? It has been nearly 6 weeks since this became an official bug and the natives are definitely getting restless waiting. I have noticed a number of followers of this forum have announced over at TGP they are switching to the Eleven Rack or considering switching now that Avid has released the 11R expansion pack. I little news would be appreciated.

Though I've never posted about the 11R at tgp, I am one of those users making the switch. I just ordered one yesterday after having tried one out a couple of times at my local Sam Ash a couple of times. It's a really nice sounding piece of equipment. I'm not getting rid of my HD500, but will be using it in conjunction with the 11R (especially for the fx and midi control).

Reason?

Silence. As a user, I do not appreciate Line6's 1way street of information. Sure, I don't expect any company to divulge inside information, but at least talk to us about the stuff we like/want/dislike/etc. and not just keep redirecting us to a bug/feature report page.

Look at this cool page Avid provides it's users . Users can not only make feature requests, but they are public for EVERYONE to see as well as vote+comment on and guess what? It works! The majority of features in their new expansion pack were all requested using feature page. Not only that, but the patch was announced way ahead of time (back at NAMM). With Line6, it's "you get it when you get it".

The closest thing to that page us users have is the "List of confirmed bugs" thread started by timowens (who doesn't even own a pod hd), which is now on page 9 btw.

Also, users aren't limited to that feature request page. 11R developers aren't afraid to discuss the things users want. This one post alone says more to me about the 11R development than anything Line6 has ever told us about future Pod developments. Personally, cab impulse responses is something I wanted for the pods for a while and I love using them in my gsp1101. I even requested it in Line6's request page, but again, their request page is a 1way street. It's one of the most requested features for the 11R so it's very likely to come in a future expansion pack and I'll gladly pay for it. I would've paid for that one feature alone as an expansion pack for the HD500.

I've just grown really tired of Line6's secrecy thing. Cliff on the Axe forums as well as the Avid guys on the 11R forum participate so much more with their communities in ways beyond just 'tech support'. That type of company/consumer interaction is worth a lot to me and shouldn't be left up to advanced users or "experts".

edit: I just saw we have a new patch which was only hinted at for weeks while we were left guessing on a release date. Had I known yesterday, about a patch release today, perhaps I would've waited to try it out first before pulling the trigger on the 11R, especially considering that it was the cleans clipping and popping between patches that made me play my HD500 less often. Now we're just left waiting for the "cool" stuff Line6 has in store for us, of which we know absolutely nothing about.

Btw, I have no bias towards Avid. I actually despise their extreme proprietary way of doing business, but the 11R and their support for it really impressed me.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by cGil on 2011-03-25 16:30:13

Okay guys, so what's the verdict?  Did they fix it?

And on a side tangent,does anybody know if the serial numbers reflect the mfg date, and if so, what part of it?  If I decide to ante up for another HD500, I'd like to try to get one with the latest version motherboard inside and avoid the hardware related glitches that seem to be plaguing a few of the earliest HD's off the production line.

Gil...



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by Texxxxx on 2011-03-25 16:46:26

cGil wrote:

Okay guys, so what's the verdict?  Did they fix it?

IMO, yes...

The amp that I was hearing it in was the BF Double, and that amp sounds great, now.  It's pre is much quieter, but the full sounds wonderful.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by chimp_spanner on 2011-03-25 16:51:07

I think I misunderstood the nature of this 'bug'. My problem was with the high gain amps. I'll go back and check out some of the others. TBH I was never sure what was part of the modelling of these older/classic amps or not, as I'd never owned or played them, so I thought all the crunch was intentional



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by Mr_Arkadin on 2011-03-25 16:59:01

alfaphlex wrote:

edit: I just saw we have a new patch which was only hinted at for weeks while we were left guessing on a release date. Had I known yesterday, about a patch release today, perhaps I would've waited to try it out first before pulling the trigger on the 11R, especially considering that it was the cleans clipping and popping between patches that made me play my HD500 less often. Now we're just left waiting for the "cool" stuff Line6 has in store for us, of which we know absolutely nothing about.

The converse of this is a company announcing such-and-such an update on a date and then missing that date. Do you really think people wouldn't moan every time Line 6 missed the release deadline. I see it happen for all sorts of companies: GForce's impOSCar2 is becoming legendary in the VSTi world for being announced at NAMM... NAMM 2009! With this sort of scenario I can perfectly understand Line 6's (and others') stance on this.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by alfaphlex on 2011-03-25 18:05:14

I can understand them not wanting to give themselves deadlines they can't meet, but that's still no excuse why they can't talk about development with us. Like the example I gave before, the Avid developer had no qualms in confirming that the 11R is capable of supporting IRs, that they are currently working on it, and that it will very likely be part of a future update.

Like the recent "coming soon", "pretty soon" comments from Line6. If things are that close to release, why can't they discuss some of the stuff that's already done. No deadline required. Just something like "we've been working on such-and-such and will be released as part of the next major update". Again, Avid went into detail about their expansion 3 months in advanced.

Many times something like dual output (no cab line-out, cab xlr) or IRs have been mentioned. Why can't they simply say "the pod hd is very capable of supporting such feature and we've been looking into it". Anything is better than nothing.

If Avid can do it and Fractal, why can't Line6? It's not like they're beating anybody to the punch with some features. Reamping and dual output? Others modellers do it already (including older pods I believe). Cab IRs? Axe-fx, GSP1101, and soon the 11R. These type of things shouldn't be kept hush-hush as they're already being done elsewhere.

Couple of weeks ago, Miller said fixes and goodies "coming very soon". At that point, the harsh/clipping was becoming quite a nuisance for me as I practice many times with headphones on and it's quite a distraction. I decided to just put the pod aside till that's fixed and just do my late night practice with my GSP1101. During the following  couple of weeks, my local Sam Ash got a 11R demo unit and BAM! I found the tube-like cleans I get from my HD500 only when I use it's preamps to my amps return.

A few more random visits to Sam Ash and I was getting more familiar with the 11R. I get home and no Line6 update and my HD500 is gathering dust so I tell myself "screw it, it's been a couple of weeks. If I wait till Line6 fixes the cleans, I might be stuck waiting for who-knows-how-long to start recording again". I pull the trigger on the 11R and ONE DAY LATER, Line6 releases the patch.

If they interacted more often with us, perhaps I wouldn't have allowed myself to become frustrated enough to find another tool to do the job I bought the HD500 to do. Likewise for other pod hd owners on other forums recently purchasing the Axe or 11R.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by Mr_Arkadin on 2011-03-25 18:22:28

alfaphlex wrote:

I pull the trigger on the 11R and ONE DAY LATER, Line6 releases the patch.

I don't disagree that some of what you discuss would be nice, like a suggestions area or whatever (btw I work in TV and there are many things that me and my fellow workers have been banging on at Avid to fix in their Symphonies FOR YEARS and they still don't fix them, or often even acknowledge them).

If you change one word in you wrote above you will see the fault in your logic:

I pull the trigger on the 11R and ONE DAY LATER, Line6 announces the patch.

Line 6 did say they were doing a fix but you couldn't wait for them. If I buy an Apple Mac and the next day a new model is announced sure I'll be annoyed but it doesn't matter if it's the announcement of the product or the product itself that arrives one day later if you can't wait.

But yeah, I certainly wouldn't mind if we had vague ideas of direction, as long as everyone understood that nothing was set in stone.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by ggoss3 on 2011-03-25 18:36:08

The Blackface Double definately sounds much much cleaner, especially in the full configuration.  I was able to even give the amp a bit of gain for warmth while retaining a nice clean sound, especially with the wah or envelope filters.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by alfaphlex on 2011-03-25 19:01:22

Mr_Arkadin wrote:

alfaphlex wrote:

I pull the trigger on the 11R and ONE DAY LATER, Line6 releases the patch.

If you change one word in you wrote above you will see the fault in your logic:

I pull the trigger on the 11R and ONE DAY LATER, Line6 announces the patch.


Line 6 did say they were doing a fix but you couldn't wait for them. If I buy an Apple Mac and the next day a new model is announced sure I'll be annoyed but it doesn't matter if it's the announcement of the product or the product itself that arrives one day later if you can't wait.


Well, you changed one word in my quote to support your point, and I don't disagree with it (especially the Mac example), but they've announced that a patch was coming soon weeks ago. Had they never said then they had a fix coming, I probably would've just looked for another product back then, but the "patch coming soon" comment convinced me to wait a bit, yet one can only wait for so long. That is why I feel communication is important.

I don't regret purchasing the 11R at all. I enjoyed playing it at Sam-Ash and the fact that it can re-amp (which the HD cant) makes it great for recording so I'll be using it during the next few weeks and evaluating it. However, if I wasn't lucky enough to have the money for the 11R, I'd have sold the HD500 to fund it. Anyway, whether I bought it or not doesn't change how I feel about Line6 keeping us in the dark so much.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by evilbert420 on 2011-03-25 19:29:54

You shouldn't regret buying the 11R... the 11R is my primary modeler. I love it; it's very organic and natural while full of features. It's sidelined my HD500 which has been waiting for an update to get the models sounding better (I particularly dislike the HD's AC and JCM800 models.. ick). I also don't like that the tap tempo button on the HD500 is so close to the pedal.

The 11R expansion pack just launched this week, 15 new amp models, 17 new cabs, new effects.... $98. The 11R is a great piece of kit but it does cost more than the HD500. I was hoping the HD would give the 11R a run for the money in terms of modeling but that hasn't been the case. Maybe Line6's future updates will bring the potential of the HD's DSPs to bear with better quality models that sound less digital.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by jholmgren on 2011-03-25 19:52:26

This is 100% my opinion, and my intent is NOT to make this a "my modeler is better than your modeler", thread hijack.

I own both the Eleven Rack, and the HD500. I bought the 11R first, thought it sounded pretty good, liked the ProTools integration, and love the features, but here's the deal...

No matter what I do with the 11R, it seems to take a lot of work to make it sound 1/2 good as the HD500, while the HD500 is very easy to make sound good. The HD500 amps are VERY easy to dial in, and with the new update it sounds SO much better on my clean amps.

I have several tube amps and the argument for me has always been that if I can instantly get a good sound out of a tube setup, why should I buy a modeler. I've never been one to think that because a modeler has 500 presets, reamping, great routing options, and 400 effects, it makes up for severely lacking in the basic amp tones. Until the HD500 the only thing I've seen that comes close in the basic amps is an Axe-FX. I purchased the 11R before the HD500, and while I still think the 11R is an excellent unit, I can't make it sound as good as the HD500. When I compare YouTube uploads, the 11R samples have about 90% that definitely sound like a modeler, while the HD series seems to have about 50% that sound convincingly NOT like a modeler.

I really don't care about the "Line6 keeping us in the dark" argument, because I don't think they do. I just think that companies like Avid don't even give a clue about any new cool updates until it is completely developed. Remember Avid announced the expansion pack around NAMM, with demonstrations, and gave a release date of (I think) March 22nd. The product was probably completely developed by December 2010. I think the fact that Line6 announced on the forums that there were new features coming, even though development wasn't complete, shows that they actually are more committed to a transparent relationship with their customers. Yes, they could've said the update was coming May 15th, and delivered exactly on that date, but I would rather have them say they're working on it in February and then get it on 18 April after it passes through their testing process.

As a point of reference I plan on keeping the 11R, and will probably buy the expansion pack, because I believe that they are headed in the right direction, and am excited to see what comes next. It's still a very cool product. I just think that they fill a different niche in the market (a fantastic rack-mount recording interface that happens to have pretty good modeling built in, vs. Line6 all-in-one solution for live performance with GREAT amp models and recording in a floor board unit).



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by AZGdude on 2011-03-25 22:57:37

I had a chance to spend a little time with the update this evening. Because I did not get past the AC30 and I was playing a strat I can not verify this bug is fixed. But I can say the AC30 model sounds MUCH better to me. So good that I got stuck on it for more than an hour  I am not sure exactly what has changed (wished I had 2 HD500s to A/B the difference), but so far I like the new firmware. Hopefully I will be as pleasantly surprised by the rest of the amp models with the update.

Please post to this thread if you think this bug is fixed or still needs more work.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by MickSlick on 2011-03-26 01:35:16
Spent a couple hours this evening with the firmware update.  It is a substantial improvement, the nasty artifacting crap has cleaned up in all amp models.  Still not wild about the AC30 model used, but now it is a matter just not being enamored with the "silver bells" and the particular AC30 used, vs., it being overshadowed by clipping problems.  The Deluxe Reverb is sounding fantastic as an alternative though :)  The heavy distortion and lead tones are sounding like they should and have become usable.  Thanks for listening and fixing, hopefully it won't have to be as painful the next time if we run into something like this, there was a lot of denial and jabbing going back and forth there for a while.

Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by HarryN on 2011-03-26 01:48:43

A really great improvement. Really like the AC30 now - which I hadn't even wanted to use much before.

Love the Gibtone, didn't like it before, but in 1.22 it becomes lots of fun. Set just on the point of breakup through one of the bigger cabs it sounds fabulous.

Great update Line6, though really this is how it should have shipped. I find it hard to believe no one realised these problems existed before release. Either the company hoped to sneak a sub-standard product to consumers or the testing programme is really weak and needs some serious looking at. This happens all the time in the idnustry I'm involved in - videogames - but there's a huge difference between a £40 game and a £400 modelling unit. Either way Line6 doesn't look great over the handling of these issues.

Anyway...we're on our way now and I'm really looking forward to finding out what the "really cool stuff" is.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by jeff5x0 on 2011-03-26 08:50:00

Just goes to show you we all have different taste, ears, styles, whatever. I couldnt disagree with you more. For me personally the Elevenrack has been a dream come true. Super easy to dial in. Great tones. I have had both each for a 2 month period so Im pretty familiar with both as well. I have the exact opposite experience you are having. I will say this though, we dont need to argue over modelers, and clearly that wasnt your intention from the first line of your post.  Whatever makes your tone, playing, and enjoyment of guitar work out best, then that is what you should use. No matter what anyone else says. I get tired of the debates over at TGP about which is the best modeler out there. The Pod HD is a great unit. So is the GSP1101, the ElevenRack, and the Axe Fx. Ive tried most of them. The Elevenrack works for ME. I get hours of enjoyment out of it. It inspires me to play more. Is it the best modeler out there? For ME it is. Will it be for you, probably not. We all have different needs, wants, expectations for modelers. So how can one be THE BEST? Ive been a Line 6 fanboy dating all the way back to the Flextone II (Flextone II, DL-4, Pod 2.0, Pod XL, Pod 3XL, SpiderValve, M13,and Pod HD 500). The Pod HD didnt work out for ME. That in NO WAY means its not a great unit. Lol who am I anyway? I still recommend it to people in that price range. Its worth trying. Now with the update, Im sure its awesome. But Im thrilled with what I have in the Elevenrack. And thats really what its about anyways right?



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by timowens on 2011-03-26 09:10:54

I've only been using dirty, crunch and overdrive tones based on the DrZ, J-45 and P-75 and to me the difference is really-really subtle if at all. I recorded some clips before and after the upgrade and have been listening to them through ATH-M50 headphones, I've listened to them several times and it's really hard to pick out any difference. I'd really be curious if one of you who posted a clip of the Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound could do such an A/B comparison recording. I suspect it has a lot to do with which amp model you use and how you have it dialed in.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by laforce58 on 2011-03-26 09:16:48

Line6Miller:

You boys killed it with this one.  BF Double and Deluxe-- nothing but sweet, fat, warm tone with no fizz.  I'm a dyed-in-the-wool LP guy with only one single-coil guitar (G&L Legacy) in the woodpile, so I was pretty disheartened by the squeaky clean amps pre-Firmware 1.22.  Post 1.22, I couldn't be happier.  Thank you, thank you, thank you.

I'm sure there are plenty of other mountains to climb, but for now, you guys need to fill those snifters with Louis Trey, light up the Cohibas, and spend an hour or two patting each other on the back.

Bravo.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by AZGdude on 2011-03-26 11:31:12

Obviously we are still in the very early stages with this new firmware, but my initial reaction to the models I have played with (AC30, Deluxe and Baseman) is that it sounds fantastic. Totally resets the bar.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by mdme_sadie on 2011-03-26 14:10:45

To be honest I can still hear digital clipping with nearly all the amps, especially at points near to where there should be breakup.

I think it's something to do with the distortion model they're using  which is assuming a linear distortion for volume of waveform ratio  (distortion after all is mostly just tubes clipping too, but in the nice  way that tubes do it), it's assuming the same behavior for a tube  that's driven to when only a few peaks are hitting, that makes you get  this weird what I'd describe as "sandy" sounding buzz.  With a real amp  unless it's very cheap you don't tend to get that, in fact there's often  almost a form of muffling/smoothing/low pass style effect that goes on  just before the breakup occurs which helps make it that little bit more  sparkly as it brings back the higher frequencies without sounding too  even and buzzsaw like.

Right now that clipping distortion sounds like there's a single note being played constantly it's just one frequency range being hit, not the very dynamic harmonic distortion of tubes.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by scotchtape800 on 2011-03-26 18:07:20

mdme_sadie wrote:

To be honest I can still hear digital clipping with nearly all the amps, especially at points near to where there should be breakup.

+1 I agree.

However I will say that I don't know if it's just me or psycho acoustics but the amps do sound MUCH better.

I've really only played with the AC30.  Maybe I'm just learning to tweak this better I don't know, but the gain makeup seems to be a LOT better.

Twin now seems much much BETTER!

The distortion pedals still sometimes have that super high frequency like digital clippiness but not like before.

Seriously, TONS better, but still some digitalness on the high frequencies.

Also, anyone here with the "ghost" note issue.

I think it's when the harmonics of a different note come through very clearly.

I.e. play this xxxxx 12 14

You will hear another note, the octave lower of the B.

On a real amp you can still hear this note, it just sounds about 2x more pronounced through headphones on the HD500, especially with lots of gain.

If you plug into an amp with your HD500 you probably won't notice it more than normal, but you definitely will through headphones.

This is "normal" - but acutely pronounced without amp sized speakers.


Anyways, good job on the improvement L6, much appreciated!

Line6Miller I hope dealing with this board doesn't cause pre-mature aging, tough crowd sometimes jeez...


Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by dftpunk on 2011-03-27 01:43:10

Hey guys!

I think I can still hear fizzes but not as much as before and PAD control almost helps me. By the way amps now sounds better. I hope Line6 didn't "re-dialed"  PRE amps as they was sounding good in pre firmware and there was no case with clipping and fizzies.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by Crusty_Old_Rocker on 2011-03-27 22:52:14

PREs are designed specifically for use with the DT50.  Yeah, you can use them any way you like, but keep in mind that an criticism of the PREs has to be based on how they perform with the DT50.

Cheers,

Crusty



Modelled Xover distortion?
by Crusty_Old_Rocker on 2011-03-27 22:55:53

mdme_sadie wrote:

To be honest I can still hear digital clipping with nearly all the amps, especially at points near to where there should be breakup.


Can you define "digital clipping" as opposed to modelled distortion characteristics (e.g. X-over, grid bias excursion, and the like)?

Cheers,

Crusty



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by lowyaw on 2011-03-28 05:31:11

timowens wrote:

I've only been using dirty, crunch and overdrive tones based on the DrZ, J-45 and P-75 and to me the difference is really-really subtle if at all. I recorded some clips before and after the upgrade and have been listening to them through ATH-M50 headphones, I've listened to them several times and it's really hard to pick out any difference. I'd really be curious if one of you who posted a clip of the Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound could do such an A/B comparison recording. I suspect it has a lot to do with which amp model you use and how you have it dialed in.

i am with you on this

it's all true, xpt for the fact that you can dial in even less gain for a cleaner tone. the terrible clipping sound is still tehre.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by Deny777 on 2011-03-28 05:53:40

mdme_sadie wrote:

To be honest I can still hear digital clipping with nearly all the amps, especially at points near to where there should be breakup.

I think it's something to do with the distortion model they're using  which is assuming a linear distortion for volume of waveform ratio  (distortion after all is mostly just tubes clipping too, but in the nice  way that tubes do it), it's assuming the same behavior for a tube  that's driven to when only a few peaks are hitting, that makes you get  this weird what I'd describe as "sandy" sounding buzz.  With a real amp  unless it's very cheap you don't tend to get that, in fact there's often  almost a form of muffling/smoothing/low pass style effect that goes on  just before the breakup occurs which helps make it that little bit more  sparkly as it brings back the higher frequencies without sounding too  even and buzzsaw like.

Right now that clipping distortion sounds like there's a single note being played constantly it's just one frequency range being hit, not the very dynamic harmonic distortion of tubes.

This is exactly what I hear. Great insight on the linear distortion response curve, I think you're right on the money - and that's why dynamic responsiveness in the HD500 is still far from perfect, and also why some users have reported lack of sustain in the amp models. Besides the distortion response curve I think there's something wrong with the way the HD500 handles clipping over a certain level, which is probably where the root of the fizz problem is.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by JerryWawak on 2011-03-28 07:17:11

My experience so far with this update has been positive.   The AC 30 is actually usable now for me.  before it was too brittle and harsh.  there was no warm crunch.   Now there is.  I have more clean headroom on more amps.   It sounds much better through the PA.

I do still hear a tiny remnant of that digita clipping on the Blackface, but it's not as prominent and noticable.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by MarekRos on 2011-03-28 07:17:26

       I think modelers have helped me in a most unexpected way. While I think the HD500 has some useable sounds, running through my Egnater Renegade I always found it took a lot of work to get those sounds and then I was always lost in the mix during any loud sections of songs in my band.. My bass player has a 1200 watt amp with massive cabs... Of course, he runs his master at 1 and a half so it wasn't a volume thing... I noticed with most of these modelers, though I've been a fender guy for my cleans and blues, for lead and crunch I would always gravitate toward the Marshalls... I considered getting a good fender again but they are not versatile enough to do all the sounds I need from country and blues (which they do fine,) to hard rock and Tool (which they don't..) So I hoped modelers were the answer and my love hate relationship with them has lasted many years, on and off, since 1996 when I had a Roland GX-700 (I think..) So, every time at rehearsal with my POD the guys said, it's starting to get there sound wise (but not there yet,), finally I unplugged my POD and went straight through the Egnater.. Everyone agreed it was much smoother, but I found that it still lacked a certain definition when cranked, testicular fortitude if you will..

         So I decided I needed something that models and sounds like Marshall more so then I was getting, as I always used there models on modelers for crunch and lead and even the Egnater is a bit of a Marshall clone with less bite, but better price.. The day before the firmware upgrade I got a full refund on my HD500 (I stiill own the M13,) traded in my Egnater, broke the bank, and walked out with a Marshall JVM410 head... I couldn't be happier... There is some truth to the old adage, if you are looking for a Marshall sound (or Fender or Vox,) get a Marshall, instead of trying to make everything else sound like it.. It has decent cleans, (not Fender Vibrolux standard but then again, it does so much more,) great lead and crunch channels... Best part is that there are many DIY "Firmware" upgrades that can be done at any time, from rebiasing the tubes hotter, to changing caps and the transformer to make it sound just how you want.. The community has posted many mods that can make it more like a plexi or what not... I do think the HD500 had nice features, but it never sounded quite like the real thing... I took the JVM410 to practice, everyone was in love with the sound, my bass player said that now he is going to have to reset his presets since now HE is getting lost in the mix.. The Marshall cuts like no other... At the same volume.. All these years with modelers and I realized I really wanted a Marshall.. Couldn't be happier....



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by meambobbo on 2011-03-28 08:28:25

I upgraded firmware yesterday and gave the unit a good run-through.  as far as the clipping goes, the upgrade helped, but I wouldn't say it fixed it.  I'm now running the studio EQ at -9db gain instead of -12db.  I have the drive up to about 20%.  This is on the blackface double.  I suspect the amp model is still clipping way too early, but whatever.  I've got my workaround.

I do find this helped the AC30, however, as now you can get some warm breakup before you hit the clipping.

I think a real tube amp provides some compression and low-end rolloff before clipping, whereas that doesn't happen on the Pod; as someone just mentioned.  That seems to be what's missing.



Re: Modelled Xover distortion?
by FrugalGuitarist on 2011-03-28 10:34:49

Crusty_Old_Rocker wrote:

mdme_sadie wrote:

To be honest I can still hear digital clipping with nearly all the amps, especially at points near to where there should be breakup.

Can you define "digital clipping" as opposed to modelled distortion characteristics (e.g. X-over, grid bias excursion, and the like)?

Cheers,

Crusty

Its exactly as I expected, the update was subtle addressing a very specifically identified bug. The folks who do not like the core tones of the HDwill still hear the same unpleasantries and describe it as digital clipping/hash/fizz/etc. I would agree to some extent that the HD500 in some cases does not sag/compress exactly like the real thing. But perfection is an elusive goal. So, those who were getting tones they dug before are probably getting tones they dig now while the others will either sell off or continue to voice their discontent. As such, can we move on at this point? I for one am definitely unsubscribing from this mega thread...



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by MickSlick on 2011-03-28 13:25:26

"I think a real tube amp provides some compression and low-end rolloff before clipping, whereas that doesn't happen on the Pod; as someone just mentioned.  That seems to be what's missing."

I agree with the above quote and similar postings.  I spent more hours than I would like to admit this weekend with the new frimware update.  First off, the update is greatly appreciated, it made the 500 go from essentially unusable to the base product it should be.  Now that the over inputing,  nasty, harshy thing has been addressed, a true assessment of the underlying direct tone of the HD500 can be made.

For me, there is lots of good tone, clean amp sounds are clear and responsive all as claimed by the new modeling contained Therine.  The issue that still remains is the break up / overdrive / distortion.  For lack of a better description, I find myself spending hours trying to dial in "soul" and "life" to my overdrive and distortion sounds.  It seems to be an either / or thing, either indistinct mud or too much high end, non smooth clip and breakup, and am always left a bit hollow. Also, the "sustain" thing on big drive patchs is seems anemic.

I really want to fall in love with the 500, and the 1.22 update has made it go from a 2 or 3 to a 6 - 7, for me with respects to direct tone, if there is some way over time to work on giving the drive in this unit the big, soul sustaining tone we hear from our amps and in our heads, than we are getting closer to the dream.

Thanks for listening



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by scotchtape800 on 2011-03-28 14:16:53

I've started listening to a bunch youtube clips on amps...

Actually a lot of them on't sound as good as I thought they would, even played by pros.

I think post processing has a lot to do with the sound on records, which we then get in our heads.

I'm starting to think that even with unlimited gear, I wouldn't end up sounding that much better...



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by whiteop on 2011-03-28 15:49:24

I too, have noticed that the Fender Twin and Fender Bassman sound quite a bit better. I think the Park model also sounds better to my ears but it's hard to tell for sure. It sounds like they changed the Delux model a little because it doesn't sound quite as good as before. Again this is a subjective observation and my opinion could change in a different listening environment.  I guess they'll just have to watch the forums to know which changes to keep or not unless they give us more control in changing the amp parameters so we can do it ourselves...;)



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by whiteop on 2011-03-28 15:51:24

a good studio engineer with the right amplifiers and sound processors can make anyone with half a shred of talent sound great but that all goes to waste if it's reformatted and put on Youtube. All the clarity and punch gets lost in the translation. Youtube will give you an idea of what a modeler sounds like but it won't sound the same live right in front of you. Take it from a guy that's probably bought over a hundred pedals, 5 amps, and 7 guitars. Tone-chasing is a disease. If you have real talent you can make a Silvertone guitar sound good.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by johnnyayyy on 2011-03-28 18:08:09

whiteop wrote:

a good studio engineer with the right amplifiers and sound processors can make anyone with half a shred of talent sound great but that all goes to waste if it's reformatted and put on Youtube. All the clarity and punch gets lost in the translation.

I bought my HD500 because of this youtube vid  - I have not been disappointed.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by laforce58 on 2011-03-28 18:28:12

I hate to be one of these wanks who overstate the obvious, but I guess I will anyway.  The only thing that sounds and acts exactly like a Fender/Marshall/Mesa/Bogner/blah-blah-woof-woof is a Fender/Marshall/Mesa/Bogner/blah-blah-woof-woof.  For as good as any of this modeling stuff is, it's got light years to go before it's going to actually replace whatever it's emulating.  I think for the forseeable future, the best we can hope for is Fenderish/Marshallesque/Mesa-like/etc.

Where modelers are concerned, that's enough for me.  IMHO, the bottomline should be, does the modeler in question deliver usable tones that inspire you to play, not, does it sound and feel exactly like a [INSERT AMP MAKE/MODEL HERE].  Maybe I'm just a pessimist, but as a practical matter, I don't think we're ever going to get to EXACTLY.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by Mr_Arkadin on 2011-03-28 18:45:25

laforce58 wrote:

Where modelers are concerned, that's enough for me.  IMHO, the bottomline should be, does the modeler in question deliver usable tones that inspire you to play, not, does it sound and feel exactly like a [INSERT AMP MAKE/MODEL HERE].  Maybe I'm just a pessimist, but as a practical matter, I don't think we're ever going to get to EXACTLY.

I partially agree with you there. I think it is quite possible that one day they will be exactly the same - I mean 20 years ago who would have though you could model guitars onto DSP chips and play them with a guitar (Variax). It's all just matter of time I think. However, having only owned Marshalls I can say that I have no idea how good the other models are, but I love that Gibtone amp regardless of how accurate it is. As you say it's about good tones and I think we have that in abundance, plus the flexibilty of not having just one guitar amp.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by MarekRos on 2011-03-28 19:12:04

          With youtube videos, so much comes into play... So many cats are simply recording through a subpar computer mic (and even more cats are listening on subpar computer speakers,) that few vids do the amps justice... I guess it depends where you come from... If you are a beginner speedily learning all you can about music your point of reference might be recordings... Cats that have been at it a long time (and by time I mean playing time... someone playing 8 hours a day and doing gigs for 1 year is prob more experienced then a weekend warrior playing 2 hours a week in between other obligations for 8 years..) will usually have more of the amps as a point of reference.. Even if you don't have one, another cat might have one, or maybe at some local jams someone will bring one out.. For instance, that is how I know what a Vibro-King sounds and feels like, from a jam session.. So I think the older players are comparing to how the actual amps move air and respond in a room.

          One thing that a good amp will do, especially a loose one like Fender/Old Marshall, that a modeler will never do (at least this year and under $1,000 (just playing safe)), is SURPRISE you.... A modeler gets the actual tone you program.. What give those same real life amps depth is they will do unexpected things, like feedback in a very individual manner from amp to amp, certain harmonics, or no matter how much bass you have set, bend a note in a certain way and all of the sudden this cutting treble appears just for that note.. This is what I think older players mean by feel that modelers lack... I can get close to a sound with a modeler, but it never surprises me, never does some unexpected mojo magic that just drops my jaw that leaves me wondering if I could ever replicate it (like good tube amps do).. With modelers.. Everything is upfront... If you pick this much harder you will always get this sound.. Not so with a good tube amp..

Plus the real deall are Thicker...... But that Mojo man...

Irreplaceable..

I love my new Marshall JVM...



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by laforce58 on 2011-03-29 11:08:12

". . . but I love that Gibtone amp regardless of how accurate it is."

My point, exactly.  Over the years, I've owned amps by Fender, Musicman, Marshall, Orange, HiWatt, and Mesa/Boogie - Mesa Engineering, but I don't know that I've ever been in the same zip code as a Gibson EH-185.  Doesn't matter, though.  I agree with you.  It sounds good and it's fun to play, and that's what matters here.

"One thing that a good amp will do, especially a loose one like Fender/Old Marshall, that a modeler will never do, is SURPRISE you.... A modeler gets the actual tone you program.. What give those same real life amos depth is they will do unexpected things, like feedback in a very individual manner from amp to amp, certain harmonics, or no matter how much bass you have set, bend a note in a certain way and all of the sudden this cutting treble appears just for that note.. This is what I think older players mean by feel that modelers lack... I can get close to a sound with a modeler, but it never surprises me, does some unexpected mojo magic that just drops my jaw that leaves me wondering if I could ever replicate it.. With modelers.. Everything is upfront... If you pick this much harder you will always get this sound.. Not so with a good tube amp."

I agree with you, too.  My days of playing live, high-dB Hard Rock and Old-School Metal are well behind me now, but if I was still at it, there's no question it would be with a Marshall, Orange or Mesa.  At least in the old days, at volume, it was equal parts playing and a wrestling match with some kind of living, fire-breathing "entity" for dominance.  And therein lay the magic and the mojo.  It's difficult for me to imagine that anyone will ever manage to fully capture that glorious "unpredicatability" on a microchip, but maybe they will.

It's pretty much down to direct recording for me these days, but when I do get the chance for some moderate-volume "live play", I have to say I'm pretty happy with the HD500.  It's kind of freaky to hear something that sounds conspicuously like a Fender Twin coming out of a Marshall 1960AV.  It makes me wonder how close it might get going through an open-back 2x12 loaded with Jensens.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by JerryWawak on 2011-03-29 11:48:28

I didn't think I was in the same zipcode as the Gibson EH-185 either......until I played it with a band.    Alone it sounded "fun" but I never saw it as a usable tone for praise and worship music.  It seemed too distorted and boxy.  But once I heard it while playing along to a CD track of a song we were learning, I realized it was a good fit.  So I tweaked it a bit and saved the patch just for that song.  When I got to practice it turned out that this sound worked great for 90% of that setlist.  I was pleasantly surprised.  If you are looking for a warm crunch, here it is.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by laforce58 on 2011-03-31 12:19:44

Considering the sheer number of posts to this thread, I'm surprised there aren't more "Post-Firmware 1.22" comments.

So what are all the fellow PODsters thinking about the latest fix?



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by meambobbo on 2011-03-31 14:29:12

In reference to this particular issue, I think it's a poor update.  You can still get clipping at very low gain levels with hot pickups.  I don't have a twin reverb, but I doubt the actual amp breaks up this easy.  It's amazing we had to wait over a month for something that I think I could do in 5 minutes.  And if the Line 6 devs want to laugh at that statement, open up your development kit to me.  I'd be happy to give your customers what you won't.

As far as the other bug fixes, I never really noticed them before, but I assume they're fixed and that's great.

Overall I'm very disappointed - if it takes this long to set a new gain minimum, I can only assume that the updates I'd like won't be released during my lifetime.



sRe: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by MickSlick on 2011-03-31 15:26:12

There were several posts after 1.22 if you read back, but, for me 1.22 was underwhelming to say the least.  Initially I was excited because I could actually use the 500 post 1.22, however, after the honeymoon, I am concerned.  Anything with gain, dirt, distortion etc... is not that musically pleasing, and the opposite of what I would call "organic" "tube like" sound.  It's all kind of brash and brittle, no smooth blooms and natural compression to be found.  The overdrive / distortion pedals kind of have that Boss DS1 going through a solid state amplifier vibe.  Frankly I am really confused at this point, and I have tweaked this thing to death just trying to get close to a smooth but articulate overdrive tone that my XTLive does.  The direct tone has some great cleans, but the second I start to drive the unit with anything, including the amps natural drive, it doesn't sound like the what the "next generation" direct tone should be.

I have definitely noticed an either or thing with many of posted experiences and tones.  Almost everyone using the 500 in front of a DT50 or other external power amplifier and cabs, are having great results.  Many, and I mean many, trying to use this direct, especially in a non studio direct app. like a P.A. or through flat response systems are struggling a bunch.

You know what, lots of folks equipment sounds good sitting in front of vintage marshal set ups, 70lb quality combo amps, or even new state of the art full fledged tube set ups like the DT50, but I still maintain a POD should not have to rely on these to get the great sounds we expect, and I don't hear them yet going direct.  I suspect the boards are a bit quiet, because some are just waiting to see if they can evolve this into what was expected regarding quality, organic direct tone in future updates.

Sorry if I sound a bit harsh, but I have dedicated lots of time and resources to this, and I really want it to be what I think the next generation of the POD concept should be with respects to "direct" sound using power amp and cab simulation.



Re: sRe: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by scotchtape800 on 2011-03-31 15:51:12

Still trying to get some good sounds out of it.

I've listened to clips on youtube... there's certainly some OK sounds out there, but not sure if they're the sounds I want.

Have put many many hours into this, 20+ probably.

Although to be honest I don't have a really good way of amplifying the unit.

Had a KC-350, looking for other options.

Clean sounds are actually pretty ok.

Distortion is hard to control.

But what do I know, I've only used mfx pedals and not the real thing...

Well except for a Fender Twin.



Re: sRe: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by meambobbo on 2011-03-31 18:55:27

MickSlick, I agree and disagree.

First off, I feel like the XT/X3's cab/mic simulation was pretty much garbage.  Comparitively, I've been able to A/B the HD using direct vs. using a power amp and real speakes and can get them very close.  I didn't bother wasting my time doing that with the X3/XT.  I've since tried to use the X3 direct to dial in some good tones, just to compare to the HD.  I now completely understand why people said the Pod's tone was too fizzy - lots of tone-sucking high-end noise.  I can't say it's completely gone in the HD, but it's still night and day.

As far as the distortion on the HD goes, I felt your pain at first.  The distortion is grittier for sure.  I started off trying to avoid it by using the "pre" versions of the amps, which definitely seem a little smoother, which is to be expected - rather than mixing pre-amp and power amp (and speaker) distortion, you're just getting the pre-amp distortion.  Yet I always felt something was lacking with them - just not enough oomph.

The full amps deliver more oomph, but also more grit.  And while the bass is there, it seems that it gets broken up and sounds a little farty.  So here's what I did to workaround...

First, I find turning up the treble knob smooths out some of the grit.  Seems counter-intuitive, but it makes a little sense.  Some of the grit likely is coming from the power amp and speaker distortion.  Sending a brighter tone to these components doesn't allow them to distort the lows and low mids, which often give a gritty distortion, compared to upper mids and highs.

Second, I like to put a studio EQ or Tube Screamer in front of the amp.  The studio EQ I set the low frequency to 75 or 120 HZ and cut it a bit (-1 to -5 db).  I set the high frequency to 800 HZ and boost (between 3 and 9 db).  I prefer this route over the tube screamer.  The screamer does virtually the same thing, only it cuts too much bass and gives the tone too much "honk".  The EQ is more versatile - you can cut the bass just enough to not fart out but still keep it in the mix.  If I do use a screamer I keep the tone knob between 35 and 85% - I'll basically turn the tone knob down until the higher end of the distortion starts to get a little gritty, otherwise, it's a little overwhelming.

I use the screamer pretty much only on the Park 75 (but I don't use it for my AC/DC tone).  For the JCM-800 and Uberschall, I use the studio EQ - I'm not thrilled about how either of these amps sound without it.  I don't use anything on the Recto or Fireball, although the Recto needs some post-amp EQ to cut out the boominess (I use a parametric EQ w/ frequency set to 15% and set the gain to like 35-40%).  I always use full amps now.  The last one to make that jump was the Fireball.  I said F it and just decided to deal with the extra grit in it, but I found after boosting the treble, and using some dual amp setups with the same cab but different mics, I found the distortion actually pretty smooth.

Also, I almost never use the XXL cab, except for a few niche tones with the Fireball.  It's kind of a one-trick pony - too industrial/filtered sounding.  Plus, the bass is near impossible to dial out.  I use all the other 4x12's, mostly the uber, blackback, and T75, and seldom the greenback.

I still miss the Mississippi Criminal/Peavey 5150 from the XT/X3, however.

Finally, keep in mind that all these tones will sound smoother double tracked, which you'd want to do on any rhythm distortion tone.  I'm almost done tweaking all my tones, and I'll be sure to post them all when I'm done.  And don't totally hate on the grit - you learn to love it - it's what cuts through a mix.  It's tempting to want that hardcore djent on your palm mutes, but you don't need as much saturation as you might think.  I find it's more important to boost the presence.  I usually prefer to do this with a parametric EQ with freq set to 85% and boosting, rather than using the presence knob on the amp.  In fact, the presence knob can destroy the tone on some amps, particularly the Park 75.

Anyway, hope that helps.  And I don't care if I hijacked this thread.  There's really nothing left to say.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by johnnyayyy on 2011-03-31 19:52:11

meambobbo wrote:You can still get clipping at very low gain levels with hot pickups.  I don't have a twin reverb, but I doubt the actual amp breaks up this easy.

I haven't had a Twin for many years, I do remember my Twins sounded like poop when I played my "metal" guitars through them, as I recall they went "Splat! Splat! Splat! Splat!"... also remember picking up my Gretsch at the shop after having new Filtertrons installed, plugged it into a vintage Twin in the shop and it went "Splat! Splat! Splat! Splat!..."

Doesn't anyone here have a vintage Twin they could plug a pointy shredder guitar into to tell us if it sounds great, maybe post some soundclips so we will know if this is a winning combination? Super Distortion pickup into Super Clean amp? Does anyone really do this in the real (non-modeling) world?



Re: sRe: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by jbauer3 on 2011-03-31 20:23:14

Great post, I am looking forward to trying your uploads.   What output setting are you using?  Studio Direct, Combo Power Amp, or Combo Front? thanks.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by mdme_sadie on 2011-03-31 20:32:19

The Fender Twin was never a high gain amp, in fact it's full on pushed to the max distorted sound is downright horrible.  Where it shines is in clean sounds and just the tiniest bit of breakup.  It breaks up differently than the HD though, the HD seems to add in square wave cutoff distortion, i.e. clipping somewhere in there, not the overall sound, but it's there and noticeable, while the fender breakup is much more organic sounding.  On the HD it's like a blend between distorted noise and clean noise, on the real amp that crunch area is a totally different tone again.

The Twin is best twinned (ahaha ha... ha.....          hmm) with a strat and single coils.  It helps bring out the best of that guitar, it wont work well with most shred guitars and they tend to have very flat and frankly boring output.  The Twin will accentuate characteristics of most guitar pickups, to you want to use pickups and a guitar that has real character with it and is compatible.  Humbuckers are likely to sound pretty dull through the amp.  It's a pretty compressed sound too with a very slow attach and delay leading to a nice bloom effect, especially in combo with the spring verb.

It sometimes seems like most guitar amps are based on Fender circuits.  Mesa on Fender Princeton, Marshall on the Bassman, VOX etc.  But Fender has stuck to their particular range of tones from these circuits and let the others do all the metal and high gain stuff, so there's not much point looking for a good pairing of metal + fender when it comes to amps.



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by johnnyayyy on 2011-03-31 21:12:49

mdme_sadie wrote:

The Fender Twin was never a high gain amp, in fact it's full on pushed to the max distorted sound is downright horrible.  Where it shines is in clean sounds and just the tiniest bit of breakup.

The Twin is best twinned (ahaha ha... ha.....          hmm) with a strat and single coils.  It helps bring out the best of that guitar, it wont work well with most shred guitars and they tend to have very flat and frankly boring output.  The Twin will accentuate characteristics of most guitar pickups, to you want to use pickups and a guitar that has real character with it and is compatible.  Humbuckers are likely to sound pretty dull through the amp.  It's a pretty compressed sound too with a very slow attach and delay leading to a nice bloom effect, especially in combo with the spring verb.

It sometimes seems like most guitar amps are based on Fender circuits.  Mesa on Fender Princeton, Marshall on the Bassman, VOX etc.  But Fender has stuck to their particular range of tones from these circuits and let the others do all the metal and high gain stuff, so there's not much point looking for a good pairing of metal + fender when it comes to amps.

Yeah, I agree with all of that. What I have noticed in this thread is people with shred  guitars saying the clean amps in the HD sound bad with their guitar - in the real world not many people would ever use say an Ibanez RG with a Fender Twin as it is a really bad match, and  I am not surprised it is not working out well in the virtual world.

mdme_sadie wrote: It breaks up differently than the HD though, the HD seems to add in square wave cutoff distortion, i.e. clipping somewhere in there, not the overall sound, but it's there and noticeable, while the fender breakup is much more organic sounding.  On the HD it's like a blend between distorted noise and clean noise, on the real amp that crunch area is a totally different tone again.

So you do have a real vintage Twin to A/B the same guitar in comparison to the HD? Could you post some soundclips?

That "Splat!" sound I heard in the past coming out of those real Twins did indeed sound like clipping - in one case I believe the pickup output was too high for the amp and in the other I believe the pickups were too close to the strings, it sounded awful through the Twin but great through a JCM800,

I could see how with the wrong guitar the Twin model in the HD would sound really poopy ...



Re: sRe: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by meambobbo on 2011-03-31 22:16:51

jbauer3, I always use studio/direct output mode.  when i run live into a power amp and cab, I always use the "no cab" option for my cabinet.  When you have "no cab" on a patch, it sounds identical in all output modes.  The output mode only changes what the cab simulation does.  In studio/direct, it's a true cab simulation.  In other modes, it's more of an EQ effect to attempt to make whatever real speakers you're using sound more similar to the speaker simulation selected.

I'll try to post my patches this weekend sometime.  I'll make a new thread for that.  I think I'll open them up to criticism before posting them individually on customtone in case some other users can find some good tweaks to them.  I don't want to confuse people by having like 3+ versions of all my tones on customtone.



Re: sRe: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by Nick_Mattocks on 2011-04-01 00:56:56

meambobbo wrote:

jbauer3, I always use studio/direct output mode.  when i run live into a power amp and cab, I always use the "no cab" option for my cabinet.  When you have "no cab" on a patch, it sounds identical in all output modes.  The output mode only changes what the cab simulation does.  In studio/direct, it's a true cab simulation.  In other modes, it's more of an EQ effect to attempt to make whatever real speakers you're using sound more similar to the speaker simulation selected.

Meambobbo

Whilst I don't want to detract from the essence of your last reply, but for the benefit of all reading this thread, and because it is often a point of confusion, I just felt it was worth pointing out that when you have "no cab" selected as part of a patch it is not quite accurate to say it sounds identical in ALL output modes, because it doesn't sound identical in all output modes.  There is a clear audible difference in the EQ being applied when flicking between the five output modes in the HD500, with Combo Front and Stack Front really showing this.

Whilst Combo Pwr Amp and Stack Pwr Amp do seem to be identical to Studio/Direct it is difficult to A/B unless you kill the sound completely when switching between Studio/Direct and say Stack Pwr Amp to compare for yourself because in the five positions Combo Front and Stack Front are interleaved between Sudio/Direct, Combo Pwr Amp and Stack Pwr Amp, I would still advise users to match the output mode correctly to the amplification system they are using. This would mean if feeding the power amp section of a tube amp head + 4x12 users should ideall set the output mode to Stack Pwr Amp, and this guarantees they would have the 'correct' output mode setting - even if Studio/Direct sounds apparently the same.

It's a minor point, but I believe less confusing to simply advise the use the correct output mode for the amp that's connected every time, and that way we can be sure users aren't accidentally getting any fizz or other odd or unexpected audio quality simply because the output mode they're using is less than what would be generally considered ideal for the way they're connecting to their amplifier.

Nick



Re: sRe: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by MickSlick on 2011-04-01 01:31:15

Meambobbo - Thanks for taking the time to outline your approach with the heavy's.  I re hit the 500 and used your suggestions, and they helped significantly.  With new inspiration, I also rethought some of my clean stuff and those were improved as well.

Being sure to increase treble enough to smooth the grit and using your EQ approach were right on.  I am getting closer and closer to making this thing sound like a new and improved modeler.  I still contend that there is too much hoop jumping and finding the right "secret settings" to get a good basic tone.  When you load up one these amps., do a little EQing, they should sound similar to how the real things sound, then tweak from there.  I also agree that though 1.22 helped, it seems they could refine it further, though the issues that were present pre 1.22 were greatly diminished, I don't think they are entirely gone.

Thanks again - I'm not giving up dammit!



Re: sRe: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by Texxxxx on 2011-04-01 07:47:19

Meambobo- Thanks for taking the time to share your insights and how you are approaching the HD 500.  I really appreciate it, and look forward to trying your ideas.

I am especially excited about you being willing to share your patches!

I'll be looking for that new thread...v e r y   s l o w l y, as it is taking forever on this site these days...lol!



Re: sRe: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by JerryWawak on 2011-04-01 07:58:14

I play at church in the worship team.  So I have only had a couple opportunities to try the new patch live in the PA.  I do notice a great improvement in the AC-30.  That was the one I was most disappointed with pre patch.  Yes I am sure it could be better.

One thing that really hasn't been addressed is why is Line6 trying to grok the vintage amps bad points as well as their good points?  With the technology available I would think they would want to take the best attributes of these vintage amps and use the processing power to make them better.

I know truely clean amps can be boring, but in a practical world I need a clean amp for some songs.  Why not put a super clean amp in here?   Why not put an acoustic sim in here?  I mean they have synths and other crazy effects, why limit this product to vintage stuff?



Re: sRe: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by Rowbi on 2011-04-01 08:07:38

JerryWawak wrote:

One thing that really hasn't been addressed is why is Line6 trying to grok the vintage amps bad points as well as their good points?  With the technology available I would think they would want to take the best attributes of these vintage amps and use the processing power to make them better.

who decides what features are wanted and unwanted.

it's a stalemate situation.  you get rid of what some people call issues, and then the people who liked them get mad.  that's happened with the Bogner.  it was broke, and L6 fixed it, and some people who preferred the broken amp model roared up.  that's fine, but what are line 6 trying to do here: they're modelling the real amps accurately (bugs notwithstanding) so if people don't want that, and they want utopian sounding generic amp models, like clean, blues, crunch, gain, metal and insane, there's other products that can do this already, form L6 and elsewhere.  the POD HD does what it does, and who knows, maybe in the future it'll do more, but that's not a fault, it is what it is.  if it doesn't fit your needs then it doesn't.



Re: sRe: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by silverhead on 2011-04-01 08:20:44

JerryWawak wrote:

..

One thing that really hasn't been addressed is why is Line6 trying to grok the vintage amps bad points as well as their good points?  With the technology available I would think they would want to take the best attributes of these vintage amps and use the processing power to make them better....

Aaaah  - now there's the real nub of the issue, isn't it? It would be a very interesting debate, and I'm not sure this thread is the place for it. But this is the heart of it.

The problem is, once you stop trying to replicate something exactly as it is, and you start trying to make it 'better', thereby intentionally and knowingly creating something that doesn't really exist...... who, exactly, decides what it 'better'. What exactly are the 'good' and 'bad' points of the vintage amps? What are their 'best' attributes, and what will make them 'better'?

It would be interesting to see what sort of general agreement exists about these things. And if you drop the concept of an original 'target' amp that is being modelled, are you still modelling anything? Do you continue to call your product an amp modeler? Or are you just producing your organization's concept of what some ideal non-existent amp 'should' sound like?

But no doubt - that's the heart of the issue.

EDIT:  just an afterthought to put the philosophical discussion above into the context of this thread:

Up to this point Line 6, as a company, has made every effort to model the orignal amps accurately, warts and all. That results in the models of older, vintage amps (which were originally manufactured before today's 'hot' pickups were invented) responding exactly as they really do to these hot pickups - an unpleasant sounding distortion. Even after a problem with some of the intial models was fixed (v1.22) this symptoim remains although it is less noticeable.

So, in my opinion, those who are still experiencing this symptom and find it intolerable should consider that perhaps they don't really want an accurate amp modeler. Perhaps they want something that doesn't exist in any real amp, and isn't going to be produced by Line 6 - a Fender Twin-like something that sorta sounds like it might (according to someone's idea/opinion) if it were originally designed to handle pickups that didn't exist at the time it was manufactured.

For me, I'm happy with the authenticity and I will rely on Line 6 to keep producing authentic models. Others can dabble in sonic speculation.



Re: sRe: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by johnnyayyy on 2011-04-01 08:56:36

MickSlick wrote:

I still contend that there is too much hoop jumping and finding the right "secret settings" to get a good basic tone.  When you load up one these amps., do a little EQing, they should sound similar to how the real things sound, then tweak from there. 

This was my experience with previous L6 products Pod 1.0, XT, X3, Vetta... but with the HD?

I downloaded all of the four and five star rated tones on Customtone.com and BLAM! TONS of GREAT basic tones to choose from, and many of them sound polished and perfect and record ready as found and need no tweaking at all.

I think if anyone is having difficulty finding a "good basic tone" with the HD the problem is likely not the HD itself - the more likely issues are the wrong guitar, the wrong delivery system (wrong choice of amp, monitors,headphones, whatever you are listening through), severe human error, or... taste. For someone who prefers the sound of the good ol' X3 it would certainly take tons of tweaking to make the HD sound similar - wouldn't it make more sense to just use an X3?



Re: sRe: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by meambobbo on 2011-04-01 08:59:50

Nick, I'm definitely not going to argue with you - I'll take your word on the differences.  I apologize if I misled anyone.  But I will say that using "no cab" in Studio/Direct mode, you can feed the signal to a real power amp and cabinet, and it doesn't sound ALL JACKED UP, like when you select a cab and get speaker simulation + real speaker.

See I tried to A/B the cab simulation going direct against the "no cab" setting feeding a real power amp and 4x12, and I found the easiest way to do this was to set the Pod HD in studio/direct mode, use a dual amp patch, and turn one amp off, and set one footswitch to toggle both amps on and off, so only one would be on at a time.  One amp used no cab and panned hard left, with the left output connected to my real power amp/cab.  The other amp used a cab simulation and was panned hard right, with the right output connected direct to my DAW.  Thus, I just had hit one footswitch to toggle between a "live" and "direct" sound.  Both outputs sound very similar - like real rigs should.  I was quite impressed with this test.  I rarely run my live rig at all anymore.

When using no cab and going direct, the sound is all jacked up (at least on a distorted patch), so I wouldn't be able to tell if there are EQ differences.  But I advise everyone to listen to Nick.  There's at least 30 hours in his day.  That's the only explanation I can give as to how he knows so much.



Re: sRe: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by johnnyayyy on 2011-04-01 09:01:57

silverhead wrote:


That results in the models of older, vintage amps (which were originally manufactured before today's 'hot' pickups were invented) responding exactly as they really do to these hot pickups - an unpleasant sounding distortion.

Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner!



Re: sRe: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by Nick_Mattocks on 2011-04-01 09:19:56

Meambobbo

No worries.  Obviously you're not trying to mislead anyone.   It wasn't my intention at all to suggest that - you put a LOT of effort into helping other users - and I look to your posts as well as others and learn stuff the same as everyone else does.

As I said it was just a minor point about not all the output modes sounding the same, and really just saying it's probably better to set the output mode dependent on what the HD500 is attached to - even though there are other options that may sound the same - just less confusing.

Most of all - the ONLY rule that anyone has to obey here is the rule that your own ears know best.

Keep up the excellent work

Regards

Nick

And yes - the forums do seem to be running very slowly for some reason



Re: sRe: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by MickSlick on 2011-04-01 12:20:25

Interesting discussion, hope folks can appreciate sharing opinions without getting too stressed  - And now for my 2 cents, and thats about what it's worth :)

I appreciate modeling really cool old crap, but, it would also be nice just to have a great replication of new quality stuff.  The AC30 (my old standby) is a good case in point.  This thing they found loaded with those wonderful (facetiousness intended) Silverbells isn't the AC30 tone I lust for.  Based on feedback throughout the forums, I'm not the only one left hollow by how this model turned out.  Not the warm tones and AC drive I had in mind.  In the end, I would much prefer they just went out and picked up a good current hand wired AC30 loaded with Alnico Blues and model that, plus they would have saved some $ to boot.

My point is, I guess, is that IMHO a lot of this "boutique" "historic" etc... tone is often highly overrated and sometimes not even as good as what current good quality models offer.  I really don't care that some beat up twin was found in an attic and restored with fizzy non broken in caps and then modeled, I just want to plug in my 500 and get great tone direct from the models.  So for me anyway, I think I would be more satisfied if they just went out and modeled high end current production models of a Twin, Lux, AC30, Bogner, Marshall, Mesa etc...  If this happened we probably would have been able to avoid the -  "these oldy moldy amps weren't made for current pickups, so they sometimes kind of suck when you try to use a newfangled modern type pickup with them"

Happy Friday



Re: sRe: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by tim1953 on 2011-04-01 12:35:33

I'm on the fence with this one.

I own an original 1965 AC 30 top boost with Silver Bell speakers that sounds fantastic. I also have owned several of the newer reissues that just couldn't touch it.

On the other hand I own a 1998 AC 15 with a Blue Bell speaker that sounds much better to me than the vintage AC 15 that Line 6 modelled for the HD 500.

So I guess this is just a case of what amps that are available to Line 6 for modelling.

I have a feeling that we are going to see a lot more amps being modelled for the HD 500 over the next few years.

There are so many good sounding amps out there these days.

Take Mesa Boogie for example - I would have rather seen the Mark II or the Triaxis modelled - the tread plate is okay but the 2 I mentioned are so much more versatile.

I think in the future Line 6 will get around to it.



Re: sRe: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by scotchtape800 on 2011-04-01 12:40:10

Yeah, I figure they should have gotten a bunch of audio engineers in there as consultants to figure out what sounds "good".

I know it's subjective, but I'm sure some big time mixers/producers have a certain sound they put out on professional releases, some EQ-ing and tone shaping, plus making sure there is no crazy digital-y distortion character to the sound.

When people plug in, they kind of expect to be able to get the sound they hear on records.

That sound is heavily processed and tweaked to perfection, and it sounds "GOOD"

Well... why not just add in that step as well?  That way you're at least able to get a "good" sound that you can then tweak.

I'm sure the majority, myself included, of people that buy modeling units have no idea wtf the real thing sounds like, and to be honest, really don't care about it sounding 100% like the "real" thing.  The real thing can SUCK too, spend any time in a guitar store hearing people wailing on tube amps with crappy settings and you'll know.  If it sounds GOOD, there will be a few that complain it doesn't sound like the real thing, but the $$$$$ will tell you most people just want something that sounds good.  We are not AE experts and we don't know how to jig everything perfectly.  Who even "knows" how to mic an amp professionally?  I mean besides "I read about it on the internet".  That's the thing - this rig is supposed to replicate a mic'ed amp.  Ok - but how about getting a "nice" mic'ed amp sound that's been professionally tweaked.  YES I KNOW there's a hundred different variables including the guitar you plug into your unit, the sound the user wants etc, but it would be nice to at least have a baseline that a lot of people could agree sounds "good" or "professional"

Top complaints for me:

- No good EQs

- Distortion charcter is... just wack.

- Mics - is it just me or are they either really muddy or too metallicy?  Did they just model the wrong mic placements?

If "in real life" they sound like that why you mic them on axis... Why model that, why not model a better position?!

Anyways, still an advancement in modeling technology, eventually we'll get there...



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by frankencat on 2011-04-01 12:40:44

"To be honest I can still hear  digital clipping with nearly all the amps, especially at points near to  where there should be breakup.

I think it's something to do  with the distortion model they're using  which is assuming a linear  distortion for volume of waveform ratio  (distortion after all is mostly  just tubes clipping too, but in the nice  way that tubes do it), it's  assuming the same behavior for a tube  that's driven to when only a few  peaks are hitting, that makes you get  this weird what I'd describe as  "sandy" sounding buzz.  With a real amp  unless it's very cheap you  don't tend to get that, in fact there's often  almost a form of  muffling/smoothing/low pass style effect that goes on  just before the  breakup occurs which helps make it that little bit more  sparkly as it  brings back the higher frequencies without sounding too  even and  buzzsaw like.


Right  now that clipping distortion sounds like there's a single note being  played constantly it's just one frequency range being hit, not the very  dynamic harmonic distortion of tubes."

At first I loved the update but now after playing with it for a little bit I have to agree with this. There is something like a mid-high-pitched "whoosh" that happens right where the note would break up. It's always the same frequency and it goes away if I either crank down the gain or the treble/mid either on the amp model or with an EQ. It makes the patches sound "digital" and now I am starting to think I like the way it sounded before the update.



Re: sRe: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by silverhead on 2011-04-01 12:42:49

MickSlick wrote:

....

My point is, I guess, is that IMHO a lot of this "boutique" "historic" etc... tone is often highly overrated and sometimes not even as good as what current good quality models offer. ..

That's a good point, MickSlick. I haven't actually owned any of the boutique or historic amps that Line 6 chose to model, nor their modern counterparts, so I have no opinion on whether or not they are overrated, but I think your more general point is that any amp model that is able to exactly replicate the sound of an original target amp is going to appeal the most to those who love the sound of the original. So I can appreciate that if you prefer the more modern sound then you are going to wish that Line 6 had chosen to model one of these instead.

And, yes, in that case we would not be having this discussion. Instead I can imagine we'd be having a different but silmilar discussion based on "Doesn't Line 6 know that a Fender Twin will begin to crack up badly when you play a Les Paul through it at full volume? This modeled one just isn't giving me the breakup I want and expect. Fix the model."

Just another case of you-can't-please-everybody I guess. I presume that Line 6 gives a lot of thought to choosing their target amp models. Like any manufacturer, they must base their decisions on knowing their target market. And, like any manufacturer in any industry, if they guess wrong they lose (or don't attract) customers.

And yes, it's easy to appreciate sharing opinions without getting stressed (dare I say nasty?). I hope we all keep it that way.



Re: sRe: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by johnnyayyy on 2011-04-01 12:57:42

MickSlick wrote:

I think I would be more satisfied if they just went out and modeled high end current production models of a Twin, Lux, AC30, Bogner, Marshall, Mesa etc...

This is not what L6 has been known for in the past but maybe they or some company will pursue this eventually. Not sure how well it would sell...

MickSlick wrote:


If this happened we probably would have been able to avoid the -  "these oldy moldy amps weren't made for current pickups, so they sometimes kind of suck when you try to use a newfangled modern type pickup with them"

Interesting... so does a brand new Fender Twin get a better sound with a high output "metal" pickup than a vintage Twin? I know a vintage Deluxe sounds terrible with a modern shredder guitar, would a brand new one be an improvement? I have only played through a vintage AC30 once, I do remember it sounded great with my Tele and not great with with my RG550... are the modern AC30s better suited that the vintage versions for use with guitars with high output pickups?



Re: sRe: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by frankencat on 2011-04-01 12:58:25

I have owned many of the amps modeled and a lot that are not. My current main amp setup is a Tophat Emplexador through a Bogner OS 2x12 with V30's. I know what sounds good and I am not one of those guys looking for models to "sound exactly like the real thing". That is a futile exercise IMHO. What I do want is for the models to sound really good. I am willing to give up a % of what I love about a nice tube amp for the convenience and flexibility of a modeler. Especially at my church gig where stage volume need to be kept low and everything goes direct to FOH. I work in recording studios all the time with lots of cool amps/mics/cabs and I tweak at home through my home studio setup and my ears are well tuned. I have it to the point now where the tones I create on the HD500 translate very well to the P.A. system at our church which is a pretty nice system. The point is that me and a bunch of others see the incredible potential of this unit and with a little help hopefully we will get there. In the meantime, there is still work to do. We still have the fizzies, although maybe not as bad. And I think the feel factor went down a bit on this last update. Also stuff like having a global EQ for the Studio/Direct mode would be amazingly helpful. This one item alone would probably take us most of the way there with regard to this issue. Anyway, carry one and thanks for the hard work.

Case in point - I am a huge fan of V30's and the modeled V30 sounds sound nothing like any of my V30 cabs and they just sound plain bad IMHO. If they sounded good I wouldn't really care if they sounded exactly like my V30 cabs.



Re: sRe: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by ricksox on 2011-04-01 13:00:23
I'm sure the majority, myself included, of people that buy modeling units have no idea wtf the real thing sounds like, and to be honest, really don't care about it sounding 100% like the "real" thing.  

This would suggest that we did absolutley no research into what the majority of our customers wanted in our modeled sounds. Not the case at all. based on feedback from surveys, focus groups, artists and audio engnieers (yes audio engineers) this was quite the contrary. The feedback was overwhelming for more authentic amp model sounds. Just adding a different perspective here.

Rick



Re: sRe: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by johnnyayyy on 2011-04-01 13:01:12

silverhead wrote:

I can imagine we'd be having a different but silmilar discussion based on "Doesn't Line 6 know that a Fender Twin will begin to crack up badly when you play a Les Paul through it at full volume? This modeled one just isn't giving me the breakup I want and expect. Fix the model."



Re: sRe: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by tim1953 on 2011-04-01 13:36:31

I think Line 6 did a pretty good job of selecting amps.

I know a lot of guys oriented towards high gain sounds won't appreciate  some of the low gain amps.

Voxs & Fenders are a different animal altogether.

To get a great sound out of those amps one needs to explore the guitars with lower output pickups to really hear what those models can do.

Some of the pickups by people like TV Jones sounds great through these models. Fender Tellys sound great as well -

It's a whole other world when using those types of pickups.

That's the world where sounds like AC/DC, The Beatles & Zeppelin, Tom Petty etc. came from.

For me the Pod HD series is the first modelling pedal that sounds like a real amp.

Some of the earlier stuff sounded pretty good for the over the top hi gain stuff but all of the cleaner sounds & mid crunch stuff always suffered.



Re: sRe: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by silverhead on 2011-04-01 13:41:37

frankencat wrote:

.....I know what sounds good ...What I do want is for the models to sound really good. ..

We all know what sounds good .... to ourselves. And we all want the models to sound really good ... to ourselves. And you're right - getting around the subjectivity and expecting everyone to like the same thing is futile.



Re: sRe: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by meambobbo on 2011-04-01 13:43:42

Don't count on getting a good Mesa Mark II or III simulation.  The one on the X3/XT was crap IMO.  But I don't think Line 6 simply did a bad job with it - it's simply that these amps have way too many possible configurations and tones.  They'll clean up, but you can also make them turn to mush, even completely inside the lead channel.  They have bass, mid, treble, volume, gain, and master controls, in addition to a 5 band graphic EQ.  Most of the knobs can be push/pulled for varied tones (bright boost, deeper bass, mid shift, etc).  The bass/mid/treble knobs affect the tone before the gain stage, allowing you to get a wide variety of distortions, from a loose fuzzy tone to a tight metal tone or even a Boston-type tone.  Look at the people who used these amps - I believe Santana used one as well as Metallica!

Check out how many different ways this thing can be configured:

http://www.mesaboogie.com/manuals/Quad%20Preamp.pdf

Sologistically, I'm not sure how Line 6 would model this.  Would the bass/mid/treble knobs on the Pod correspond to the knobs on the amp, or would they be post-gain EQ, and if so, how would they compare to the 5-band graphic EQ on the actual amp?  Which knobs should be pulled and which shouldn't?  It seems like Line 6 would have to "hardwire" many of these choices into the amp model, outside the control of the user.  Thus, which tone will Line 6 try to dial in?  A smooth Santana lead, or a nasty Metallica thrash rhythm?  They could make multiple amp models based on different configurations of the real amp, but considering they've actively sought to limit the sheer number of amp models in the HD series, I don't think they'd go for this approach.

It is true that they could use a middle-of-the-road set of settings where the user wouldn't have control, and let the user put EQ effects either before or after the amp to act as the parts they couldn't incorporate; but then you'd have to take up effects blocks in what would otherwise be inside the amp.

My frame of reference is a Quad preamp (Mark II/Mark III pre-amps - both clean and lead channels) into a Mesa Simul 2:95.  So I assure you I know what I'm talking about here (not always the case ;-) ).



Re: sRe: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by tim1953 on 2011-04-01 14:01:34

Yeah The Triaxis would be a tuff one to do - I imagine the Mark II would be easier.

They did a pretty good job on the AC 30 & Deluxe but there are some things missing that I can get with different guitars on my real '65 AC 30.

Modelling is never gonna be an exact science but it's a great option to have and I think it is very usable in many situations.

Overall I am pretty excited about the HD 500 - all the effects, amps, etc. available in one foot pedal is a pretty  incredible value.

I bought mine for use on smaller jobs so I didn't have to drag out amps, racks & vintage pedals but after playing it along side of my real amps it's become obvious to me that I'm going to be able to use it in the studio as well.

I think as Line 6 works on the software side the HD 500 is only gonna get better as time goes on.



Re: sRe: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by scotchtape800 on 2011-04-01 14:14:55

What people say and what people really want sometimes aren't the same.

I didn't mean not like a real amp, I meant not 100% like a particular amp.

Of course everyone wants a more "authentic" "tone" in "feel" and sound etc, but they don't want the negatives...

Unless they do want the negatives.

Present someone with their favourite amp and their favourite amp without "hum" or any of the "negatives" of their amp and guess which one they'll choose...



Re: sRe: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by meambobbo on 2011-04-01 14:20:17

silverhead wrote:

frankencat wrote:

.....I know what sounds good ...What I do want is for the models to sound really good. ..

We all know what sounds good .... to ourselves. And we all want the models to sound really good ... to ourselves. And you're right - getting around the subjectivity and expecting everyone to like the same thing is futile.

This is why I think Line 6 should open up its dev tools to the public and let its user base try to cater their Pod to their own specific needs.  I'd certainly dump 2 or 3 of the models on there for ones I'd actually use.  And it'd be interesting to see if some people could come up with amp models that model modded amps, similar to what you can do in ReValver.

As a high gain guy, I still think Line 6 made good amp choices (I dabble in vintage tones too, but I can't see myself ever buying an actual vintage amp).  My main gripe is that there's no 5150.  I can live without a Soldano, but it's next on that list.  My plan is to perhaps buy a real 5150 and use the 4CM.  (Or I could 4CM my X3 set to a 5150 patch).  I guess in some ways I'm lucky considering the one metal amp not in the Pod that I want happens to be cheaper than all the amps they modelled in the unit!!!

Of course, I have no gripes about the overall quality of the high gain models.  Many have said they prefer the X3/XT, and I don't see it.  In fact, the first thing I did when I got mine was used the Fireball pre model into my live rig, and my jaw dropped at how much better response and articulation I was getting.  And the Fireball pre has since seen vast improvements.  This was before I discovered how much better the cab/mic simulation is.  I know the distortion has a bit more grit to it, but I could never picture myself going back to the X? lines.

Edit - I just realized I would 4CM unless I'm using a real amp and cab.  So if I wanted to use the 5150 sim on the X3, I wouldn't be using the 4CM, just run the Pod X3 in the effects loop.



Re: sRe: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by JerryWawak on 2011-04-01 14:25:05

If Line6 offered a Pod that was completely accruate and true to the vintage amps AND sold it side by side with a Pod that had the positives from those amps without the noise, clipping, etc.  I would bet the more modern version would win hands down.   People regularly perform mods on vintage amps for a reason.  Take the wintage amps and improve upon them by cleaning them up.  Don't mess with the tone, just clean up the signal.

I think they are trying too hard to pass some sort of blind fold A and B listening comparison test instead of trying to provide an awesome sounding unit.

The next gen Pod should have a flourecent light setting or a bad grounding in the seedy club wiring setting to add that special vibe.



Re: sRe: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by silverhead on 2011-04-01 14:33:28

scotchtape800 wrote:

...

Present someone with their favourite amp and their favourite amp without "hum" or any of the "negatives" of their amp and guess which one they'll choose...

I know which one you would choose, since you seem to lump "hum" in with an otherwise unspecified group of "negatives".  But I know others who would love to have controllable hum as a value-added enhancement to amp models and have submitted a feature request hoping to see it happen. Apparently the presence of some hum improves certain tones and creates additional desired authenticity. Who knew?

The point is - we don't all agree on what the "negatives" are. Line 6 has done their homework, knows their customers, and has produced a set of amp models that they believe will best satisfy the majority. Individually, we may or may not be satisfied and we are certainly free to express our opinions (as we are doing) and make our feature requests. I encourage you to make yours if you haven't already. Who knows - it might get implemented.

Hey - AZGdude (the originator of this thread) - you may be right. It will NEVER die!!



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by evilbert420 on 2011-04-01 14:50:37

I agree with you frankencat, my HD500 is still relegated to a MIDI controller for my 11Rack.

My take is that it's clear to me that the HD series is Line6's "Windows Vista" release. Good intentions, definitely some good technology, but in some ways a step backwards and really in need of an extra year or two in development to deliver on the promise. A buggy initial release, lack of warmth despite the increased modelling data, weird default settings that need to be discovered and tweaked before performance is acceptable, and to top it off a lack of transparency from the vendor after making big claims and setting expectations sky-high. It's almost as though Line6 hired a bunch of PMs from Microsoft that got fired after Vista and had them lead the HD efforts.

I'm hoping Line6 gets it figured out soon, because I had hoped that the HD500 could replace the 11R and I'd have less to carry, but so far it's been unable to come close to replacing the other modeler.



Re: sRe: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by meambobbo on 2011-04-01 14:51:00

Maybe it's just me, but I don't know of a single product that purposefully and specifically adds hum into your signal (while not being an unintentional byproduct of some primary function).  I know a few that reduce the hum.  I'm sure any survey taken would go in favor of hum reduction in amp models.

I think that Line 6 survey that Rick mentioned had some loaded questions, or was too abstract.  If I had to choose between authenticity and giving Line 6 free license to strip out tonal features they labelled as "negative", I'd choose authenticity, out of fear that they'd strip out something I found positive.  At least you know what you're getting.  But when you get to specific issues, like noise and hum, or crackles, etc.  I think most people would ask to have these things eliminated from the amp models, as most everyone finds them negative.

I think the twin reverb's x-over distortion would be an area where users favored alteration over authenticity.  I think 99% of the people hear agree it sounds like crud.  I don't understand why anyone would want it even though they admit they don't like the way it sounds.  It's hard to imagine some moment of embarassment where some amp novice hears your tone and says, "well, that's a great twin reverb tone you've got there, BUT WHERE'S THE NASTY CROSSOVER DISTORTION!?!?!"



Re: sRe: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by MarekRos on 2011-04-01 16:17:04

I am going to risk sounding a bit abrasive to comment on how I see things relative.. Line 6 has two idealized extreme bases of customers which the real world falls into.. Beginners and Pros.. In order to maintain credibility they have to appease Pros, in order to maintain sales they have to appease beginners... I'm on the record saying that the HD is a huge improvement. So..

None of the Pros expect that feasibly a $500 pedal will give you $50,000 studio mic'd guitar tones... Record companies love to pinch pennies.. When was the last time you heard of the next superstar group going to record with one guitar into a pod into a home computer... never.. If it could be done, trust me, the business of music would be all over it (of course that does not mean that individuals and pros can't make good tracks in small studios.. but no acoustic sim sounds real, completely.. If you need an acoustic sound you have to buy an acoustic... or a Motif keyboard as you can get away with a synth in R'N'B and Hip Hop.. Not rock though (as a general rule)) If 1000's of studios stock some fenders, marshalls. a dual rec... chances are those amps get THE SOUND needed for these records... If you don't like the models in the HD (which not one of these amps are in the same price range of..) It's the model not the amp. So beginners are getting turned of on great amps that all their favorite producers love because they do not understand that the tech isn't here yet to replace these amps in reality... So these amps do not have negatives, they have personalities... that make them perfect for some thing and not others... So yes EMG's into a twin. not the hottest idea, but would you fault a Bogner or Mesa Dula Rec for sounding like s$$# with a plug in acoustic... No? That's right... Because what makes that Mesa Dirt Channel Rock hard with EMG's makes it sound terrible with an acoustic, and what makes a twin twang it's ass of on recordings make it not work with a metal guitar... Seriously, I do not know how much marketing is to blame... but it used to be people understood that you need specific gear for specific sounds... Nowadaze some you cats think that you should have all that is needed to build a house in a pocket knife.... Need a strat sound? Get a strat.... I blame this all in one marketing for teaching youngsters that you can get $50,000 studios with one piece of kit and a free download....



Re: sRe: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by laforce58 on 2011-04-01 18:03:09

"Why not put an acoustic sim in here?"

Jerry:

I don't know if they'll work for you, but I found some of the acoustic patches on customtone to be pretty impressive for going direct.  I have a Godin LGX-SA with piezos and the "acoustic" sounds I've gotten going direct are better than I got with my last Taylor.  As is, they don't sound like a miked acoustic, but to my ears, they reproduce that "piezo" sound pretty authentically.

Again, I don't know if they're your cup of tea, but it appears that someone put some effort into those patches.



Re: sRe: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by johnnyayyy on 2011-04-01 19:03:13

MarekRos wrote:

So yes EMG's into a twin. not the hottest idea, but would you fault a Bogner or Mesa Dula Rec for sounding like s$$# with a plug in acoustic... No? That's right... Because what makes that Mesa Dirt Channel Rock hard with EMG's makes it sound terrible with an acoustic, and what makes a twin twang it's *** of on recordings make it not work with a metal guitar... Seriously, I do not know how much marketing is to blame... but it used to be people understood that you need specific gear for specific sounds... Nowadaze some you cats think that you should have all that is needed to build a house in a pocket knife.... Need a strat sound? Get a strat....

If only someone could make a guitar with high output humbuckers that sounded great for metal, but then with a flick of a switch could sound exactly like a Strat or Tele and make beautiful sounds when played through a Twin... even better if my HD500  could control which sounds the guitar is making... and if it could also sound like an acoustic and a Gretsch and a Rickenbacker and a...

<a target=new href=http://lh4.googleusercontent.com/public/2nHswSbKfUHNnmfqn7C56Y4Eo7v4XM39rcPweoohxD4OlH4x_-mQGnWJlR2oVMrV3HJEvfblSR3Vr51wAwfZ7_q5ZTWvesbyA3o6mLKkoQaAJbTvh0zyR-_KroKH-shrKnCzdv8GhfBnRq6k0NRk4t74RY9_XPGJ4m-B3MgB"class="jive-image" src="http://lh4.googleusercontent.com/public/2nHswSbKfUHNnmfqn7C56Y4Eo7v4XM39rcPweoohxD4OlH4x_-mQGnWJlR2oVMrV3HJEvfblSR3Vr51wAwfZ7_q5ZTWvesbyA3o6mLKkoQaAJbTvh0zyR-_KroKH-shrKnCzdv8GhfBnRq6k0NRk4t74RY9_XPGJ4m-B3MgB"/><a target=new href=http://lh3.googleusercontent.com/public/hMnZTrqC6Q888Kaz82-nJzkVMpm6wbDAEr5aSUUgLOxHuccbWNfsgGwmNADFqXuWoYBkseMo9ZpwCNxkG5Mv4wXXme8D7lvrxThHhRQVLYmBC896O5F4UvPtKD07rRf-nFcN126WsZ1wEwWSNxmZ_-6oV5AD_yyIdPp86qUN"class="jive-image" src="http://lh3.googleusercontent.com/public/hMnZTrqC6Q888Kaz82-nJzkVMpm6wbDAEr5aSUUgLOxHuccbWNfsgGwmNADFqXuWoYBkseMo9ZpwCNxkG5Mv4wXXme8D7lvrxThHhRQVLYmBC896O5F4UvPtKD07rRf-nFcN126WsZ1wEwWSNxmZ_-6oV5AD_yyIdPp86qUN"/><a target=new href=http://lh3.googleusercontent.com/public/kkYYw6abD7_6ULgAzMBg62zlpcqeA9zDpkPnGIK8QqSsxoT3T5Biuv4-0IXTMpq2Q3lh6wskhhK8_Oiof9c0G-RI-a4luYS9jMf8geHirQTSfQkZuOatr_HiumC8aEF2JBwmDxYfQvOouAVrPOa-e4aRb6dxox7CDFCW7kDx"class="jive-image" src="http://lh3.googleusercontent.com/public/kkYYw6abD7_6ULgAzMBg62zlpcqeA9zDpkPnGIK8QqSsxoT3T5Biuv4-0IXTMpq2Q3lh6wskhhK8_Oiof9c0G-RI-a4luYS9jMf8geHirQTSfQkZuOatr_HiumC8aEF2JBwmDxYfQvOouAVrPOa-e4aRb6dxox7CDFCW7kDx"/>



Re: sRe: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by silverhead on 2011-04-01 20:39:07

Yes - and you can bet there are already people ripping out the factory installed mag pups and replacing them with.... well, you know.



Re: sRe: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by MarekRos on 2011-04-01 20:49:10

LOL... I'm torn on how to respond... Either by saying, "Hey, who the f*** put a Line 6 ad as a reply to my post? Ha ha.. didn't you read what I said? Advertising is ruining these kids heads by making them think that every sound possible will be offered by one unit, only to be disappointed after all the hype that an acoustic will still sound better as an avoustic, what's more the option of a real Taylor or Martin versus one genereic acoustic with eq, so many pickup configurations of not just placement, but actual different pickups from Dimarzio to homemade..  Have you ever played a D'aquisto? They are $40,000 dollar jazz guitars.... There is a reason why jazz players still buy those expensive hollow boxes versus a digital emulation... Don't you get it? My super fast computer maxes out after a few IR cabs and the POD can't even handle one!!! The POD would have to be octocore intel 7 40gig RAM to even start to emulate all these things realistically enough,,,, Eventually yes this could happen... But right now the POD does NOT have the processing power to emulate ALL of these products... So go sell and brainwash your venom to the next batch of beggining guitarists making sure they never learn any proper music theory or how to bias an amp.... Make them believe it's all right and never let them know the particular feel of a les paul in an old JTM-45... The smokey dull licks on a hollow body strung with Thomastic Infeld Strings... The ring of a tele in a Vibro-King.... Make sure they never question how the actual physical motion of the body and the wood reacts physically with there body while they dance with a guitar, and why you carress a Les Paul, and why you strangle a strat... Make them believe that your one product will encapture every sing pickup wood body type configuration in 70 plus years of amplification....or maybe let them learn that products hype and real world are two different things.... That acoustics still sound better when real, but maybe the Variax can model pickups allright, but still they might find that one guitar that is a one trick pony that does it better... I have a JVM Marshall ... Love the versatility.. If my sound was the Plexi, by God I know I would be better off with a Plexi and just dial that one sound.. Like so many players get that ONE sound... Jack of all, master of none.. I'm not dissing the product, I'm dissing the idealized hype that is ruining KIDS by not letting them understand that while a swiss army knife might have a spoon, SIT DOWN TO DINNER you might still enjoy  the FEEL of a single spoon....."

or I could respond.. "How patronizing.... I've been trying this sh** since 1996 when the first ads for all in one solutions came out... And BS like yours was out then to, pulling cats like me in thinking that everything was modeled perfect... I'll be honest.. I didn't know enough then, other than my rhythgm guitar player joked that he had an easier time getting a good sound out his JC-120 then I did with my COSM into a tube power amp into a Marshall half stack... We were young kids listening and eating up all the BS kittens like you spew...... But the older cats woke me up... IT"S NOT A BAD PRODUCT BUT QUIT PROMISING THAT IT CAN DO MORE THAN IT CAN DO.... IT CAN NOT REPLACE ALL THOSE GUITARS... PASSABLE.. BUT NOT ALL THE WAY ESPECIALLY FOR SOMEONE WHO IDENTIFIES STRONGLY WITH ONE! Example... If I saw your mom for a minute next to you, a year later if I saw you and a woman that looked like her I couldn't tell the difference... This woman models your mom perfectly hype type... But you would be like, how the f*** can you not tell the difference.. That is how it is with modeling, on different scales depending on the amp guitar... Sure a strat player may think it sounds kind of like a Les Paul and a Marshall.. But Slash won't think so... Any way.... We can discuss .. But don't reply with a condescending fanboy Line 6 ad next time.. Peace



Re: sRe: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by johnnyayyy on 2011-04-01 21:16:10

silverhead wrote:

Yes - and you can bet there are already people ripping out the factory installed mag pups and replacing them with.... well, you know.

This is my plan for my JTV as well as the mags will only be used for metal - will probably install a D-Activator in the bridge position and leave the neck pickup stock.

And you can be sure I will be here complaining when the D-activators sound poopy through the HDs Twin model



Re: sRe: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by meambobbo on 2011-04-01 22:29:31

honestly the only reason i'd buy a variax is so i could change the tuning at will to play along with various harder rock artists, who tune 1/2 step down, whole step, 1 1/2 step, 2 steps, etc.

...but at the price of the variax, i could get a at least 4 fender bullets and put good pickups in them.  i'd bet the bullets sound better.

if the digital pickups in the variax were so good, why they'd put the magnetics in the new version?  i do agree it LOOKS better with pickups, but you could fake that rather than using real ones.  i'm betting the sound isn't there yet.

for a live sound, there's a better way to get the tonal variety you want.  get some humbuckers that you can coil tap to work as a single coil.

generally i'm not a tone purist, although the way i spend my time, people might disagree.  anyway, sometimes you just gotta say close enough.



Re: sRe: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by Crusty_Old_Rocker on 2011-04-01 22:48:55

meambobbo wrote:

Maybe it's just me, but I don't know of a single product that purposefully and specifically adds hum into your signal (while not being an unintentional byproduct of some primary function).  I know a few that reduce the hum.  I'm sure any survey taken would go in favor of hum reduction in amp models.

I think that Line 6 survey that Rick mentioned had some loaded questions, or was too abstract.  If I had to choose between authenticity and giving Line 6 free license to strip out tonal features they labelled as "negative", I'd choose authenticity, out of fear that they'd strip out something I found positive.  At least you know what you're getting.  But when you get to specific issues, like noise and hum, or crackles, etc.  I think most people would ask to have these things eliminated from the amp models, as most everyone finds them negative.

I think the twin reverb's x-over distortion would be an area where users favored alteration over authenticity.  I think 99% of the people hear agree it sounds like crud.  I don't understand why anyone would want it even though they admit they don't like the way it sounds.  It's hard to imagine some moment of embarassment where some amp novice hears your tone and says, "well, that's a great twin reverb tone you've got there, BUT WHERE'S THE NASTY CROSSOVER DISTORTION!?!?!"

Speak for yourself.

The vintage amp aficianados like me need to have the hum in there to get the modelled sound to replicate that of the original amp.  Same goes for the poweramp distortion characteristics of the Fender Twin and other models.

If you want sanitised caricatures of the amps rather than authentic amp modelling then you can get that anywhere.  Also Line 6 have "pretend" amp models that might be more to your liking in the POD X3 products.

The Hum actually contributes to the final tone of the amp and for those of use using 50Hz power instead of America's 60Hz power, having the ability to switch is a real plus for us becasue it does alter the sound of the amp model.

Cheers,

Crusty



Re: sRe: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by Crusty_Old_Rocker on 2011-04-01 22:55:34

meambobbo wrote:

why they'd put the magnetics in the new version?

User demand!

It's that simple.  Users wanted magnetic pickups in their Variaxes.  Many Variax owners were transplanting Variax electronics into other electric guitars to give them the option of magnetic or modelled or both.  With the JTV you can mix a twelve string acoustic tone with an electric guitar tone by combining the modelling with the magnetics.

Let's hear you get an electric sitar, banjo and dobro sound out of those Fender Bullets or by adding some different pickups to your guitar.

If the whole modelling is such a bad idea, why have both Gibson and Fender attempted it too?  Unfortunately for Gibson and Fender their attempts fall well short of what Line 6 have achieved, even with the original Variax 500.

Cheers,

Crusty



Re: sRe: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by Crusty_Old_Rocker on 2011-04-01 23:02:48

johnnyayyy wrote:


This is my plan for my JTV as well as the mags will only be used for metal - will probably install a D-Activator in the bridge position and leave the neck pickup stock.

And you can be sure I will be here complaining when the D-activators sound poopy through the HDs Twin model

Have you taken a moment to consider that the electronics within the JTV have been matched to the output of the stock pickups?

The signal from the magnetic pickups gets digitised to go through the second channel of the AES digital audio when using the VDI.  If the pickups are too hot for the circuit and the A/D converters, then the signal coming from the magnetic pickups is going to clip the A/D converters or other componentry in the signal path.  There would also be considerable mismatching of levels when moving from modelling to magnetic.

Personally, I would be making sure that the output on any replacement magnetic pickups wouldn't exceed that of the stock pickups because common sense and an elementary understanding of audio electronics tells me that higher output pickups are going to cause clipping within the JTV circuitry.

Cheers,

Crusty



Re: sRe: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by Crusty_Old_Rocker on 2011-04-01 23:23:13

meambobbo wrote:

I think that Line 6 survey that Rick mentioned had some loaded questions, or was too abstract.

I really can't agree.

I currently work as the Research Manager for a large organisation and was Global Research Director for a worldwide travel company, I have 15 years experience in academic research, taught research related subjects at university for more than 12 years (I continue to guest lecture) and am peer review published as well as the co-author of a short book based on research into the use of animal imagery in advertising.  In the area of applied consumer research, I have conducted over a thousand focus groups across 6 countries and have designed and administered several thousand quantitative studies.  I am well versed in qualitative data analysis tequniques including ethographic methods and I have extensive hands on experience in complex multivariate data analysis techniques from simple ANOVA to Structural Equation Modelling and Confirmatory Factor Analysis using LISREL.

I too receive the surveys that Line 6 send out and based on my knowledge and experience in consumer research I can assure you there's nothing wrong with their survey questionnaires.  There was one little hiccup that I found in one survey that asked about the use of iPhones and iPads but didn't ask about using an iPod Touch which probably should have been included.

So, from what background do you base your critique of the survey questions?

Cheers,

Crusty



Re: sRe: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by johnnyayyy on 2011-04-02 00:02:16

MarekRos wrote:

didn't you read what I said? Advertising is ruining these kids heads by making them think that every sound possible will be offered by one unit, only to be disappointed after all the hype that an acoustic will still sound better as an avoustic, what's more the option of a real Taylor or Martin versus one genereic acoustic with eq,

I do not remember any advertising that would lead anyone to believe "every sound possible will be offered by one unit"... in the case of the JTV it is I believe 25 or so guitars, with the HD 16 amps and 100+ effects. Not every sound possible but cedrtainly lots and lotes of sounds possible with these two devices.

I agree the right engineer in the right studio with the right mic/pre will be likely able to get a better acoustic sound than any of the 5 or so acoustics currently modeled in the JTV, but the wrong engineer in the wrong studio with the wrong mic/pre  (the most commonly encountered scenario in my experience) is going to yield an acoustic sound far inferior to what I am able to produce easily and instantly at home with my current Variax, and I have heard the soundclips of the JTV and the huge improvements over the Variax Mk. I so I am really looking forward to receiving my new JTV.

For someone with millions of dollars to spend recording it might be worth it to pay someone tons of money to record those bits, for those of us who primarily play electric and occasionally need a great sounding acoustic the Variax is in my opinion great alternative.

Honestly, who has a recording budget these days? Britney Spears... Lady Gaga... Who else?

MarekRos wrote:

so many pickup configurations of not just placement, but actual different pickups from Dimarzio to homemade..

You do realize the JTV has real magnetic pickups that can be replaced with Dimarzios `or homemade pickups or whatever you like, right?

MarekRos wrote:


Have you ever played a D'aquisto? They are $40,000 dollar jazz guitars....

Nope.

MarekRos wrote:


Don't you get it? My super fast computer maxes out after a few IR cabs and the POD can't even handle one!!! The POD would have to be octocore intel 7 40gig RAM to even start to emulate all these things realistically enough,,,,
Eventually yes this could happen... But right now the POD does NOT have the processing power to emulate ALL of these products...

I think what you are saying is what I am currently doing with my HD500 on a daily basis is not possible. Not sure what you mean by "realistically enough?"... realistically enough for what/whom?

MarekRos wrote:

So go sell and brainwash your venom to the next batch of beggining guitarists making sure they never learn any proper music theory or how to bias an amp.... Make them believe it's all right and never let them know the particular feel of a les paul in an old JTM-45... The smokey dull licks on a hollow body strung with Thomastic Infeld Strings... The ring of a tele in a Vibro-King.... Make sure they never question how the actual physical motion of the body and the wood reacts physically with there body while they dance with a guitar, and why you carress a Les Paul, and why you strangle a strat... Make them believe that your one product will encapture every sing pickup wood body type configuration in 70 plus years of amplification....or maybe let them learn that products hype and real world are two different things....

Erm not sure where all that is coming from but I could give a crap what these kids you speak of learn or don't learn or experience, if they can come up with $10,000 for a vintage JTM or $40,000 for a Jazz guitar or $300,000 for a vintage Les Paul then that is great for them, but IMO at this point it is not necessary to spend that much money to get really great sounds. If anyone with a JTV and an HD500 can't get a good sound out of those two pieces of gear I do not believe the problem lies with the gear...

MarekRos wrote:

Make them believe it's all right .... Make sure they never question how the actual physical motion of the body and the wood reacts physically with there body while they dance with a guitar, and why you carress a Les Paul, and why you strangle a strat... Make them believe that your one product will encapture every sing pickup wood body type configuration in 70 plus years of amplification....

Interesting... are the kids really crazy for Variax? Hadn't heard of this trend... doubt most kids have any idea what a JTV is or would want one if their guitar heroes didn't use one. Who are the guitar hereoes these days? Zacky Vengence?

I bought a Variax after reading a little about them and trying one out at Guitar Center, liked it so much that later I bought 2 more for transplants. No hype involved, and I am way too old to be a kid.

MarekRos wrote:


"How patronizing.... I've been trying this sh** since 1996 when the first ads for all in one solutions came out... And BS like yours was out then to, pulling cats like me in thinking that everything was modeled perfect... I'll be honest.. I didn't know enough then, other than my rhythgm guitar player joked that he had an easier time getting a good sound out his JC-120 then I did with my COSM into a tube power amp into a Marshall half stack... We were young kids listening and eating up all the BS kittens like you spew....

Hmmmmm, mentioning what seemed to be the obvious solution to what seems to be at the root of this thread (the problem of getting a single guitar to play nice with 16  different amps) in a humorous manner was not meant to be patronizing... my experience is similar to yours, I heard about POD 1 in the late 90s and bought one thinking it would be everything I had always dreamed of, it was not though it was good for certain things. Then came the Pod Xt, oooh, this one has pedals too! Surely it would be the ultimate... but no. Then I bought a Vetta thinking with all those possibilities there would surely be something in there that would sound great... sadly after years of trying I never found the good tones in my Vetta and I am not so sure they are in there.

I was considering buying an Axe/FX rig when I saw the AXe/HD shootout vid on youtube, checked out a ton of soundclips and I was sold. No hype, just recorded examples. So far my HD500 has exceeded my expectations. No hype, just my experience.

MarekRos wrote:


We were young kids listening and eating up all the BS kittens like you spew...... But the older cats woke me up...

Dang, not sure which part you are calling BS... "my HD500 sounds great"? "My HD500 can switch a JTV from whichever mag pickups I choose to install to a model of a Strat that sounds better to my ear than any Strat I have ever played ( probably because it was modeled on a $35,000 vintage strat)"?

Psssst.. doubt those older cats are older than me...

MarekRos wrote: Sure a strat player may think it sounds kind of like a Les Paul and a Marshall.. But Slash won't think so...

I have Strats and Les Pauls and have owned many Marshalls. IMO the Variax Strats are awesome, the Les Paul model is good but I prefer my main LP at the moment, and the JCM800 model in my HD500 RULES! It sounds so much like a JCM800 that if you have a JCM800 and it doesn't sound like the HD500 model there is something wrong with your JCM800  Okay that sounded like hype and was meant to be funny, but it is extra funny to me because it is true. And if you think Slash could tell a recording was made with a JTV and an HD500 instead of a Les Paul and a Marshall... well, I would love to see that kind of Pepsi Challenge. Rich Renkin has said on these forums that this gear fooled the pros in blind A/B tests, it would be really cool to see that kind of testing with some famous players or producers but I doubt we are ever going to see this kind of A/B testing even at an amateur level.

MarekRos wrote: But don't reply with a condescending fanboy Line 6 ad next time..

Condescending? No.

Fanboy... hmmmm, like I said, XT/Vetta bad, HD/Variax good, oh yeah, did I mention the old Variax doesn't work well for metal palm muting? This is fixed on the JTV with the addition of the mag pickups... so... fanboy...? Well, I do think the HD is a great solution to many of my problems, and as far as I know the JTV is currently the ONLY solution to the problem at the root of this thread  "My guitar only sounds good with half the amps in the HD500 so there must be something wrong with my Pod!" but if you know of a better  solution I would love to hear about it.



Re: sRe: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by johnnyayyy on 2011-04-02 00:15:36

Crusty_Old_Rocker wrote:

johnnyayyy wrote:


This is my plan for my JTV as well as the mags will only be used for metal - will probably install a D-Activator in the bridge position and leave the neck pickup stock.

And you can be sure I will be here complaining when the D-activators sound poopy through the HDs Twin model

Have you taken a moment to consider that the electronics within the JTV have been matched to the output of the stock pickups?

The signal from the magnetic pickups gets digitised to go through the second channel of the AES digital audio when using the VDI.  If the pickups are too hot for the circuit and the A/D converters, then the signal coming from the magnetic pickups is going to clip the A/D converters or other componentry in the signal path.  There would also be considerable mismatching of levels when moving from modelling to magnetic.

Personally, I would be making sure that the output on any replacement magnetic pickups wouldn't exceed that of the stock pickups because common sense and an elementary understanding of audio electronics tells me that higher output pickups are going to cause clipping within the JTV circuitry.

Cheers,

Crusty

Yeah, I am betting Line 6 had the foresight to build in enough headroom to accomodate high output aftermarket pickups, but... if the new pickups sound bad I will try something else, if I have to I will put the stock pickups back in as they seem to sound really good as shipped.

The level mismatching will not be a problem for me as all switching will be done by the HD and levels will be preset within the patches that use the mags.

How is your JTV experience going so far?



Good reasons not to swap out components
by Crusty_Old_Rocker on 2011-04-02 01:41:21

johnnyayyy wrote:


Yeah, I am betting Line 6 had the foresight to build in enough headroom to accomodate high output aftermarket pickups, but... if the new pickups sound bad I will try something else, if I have to I will put the stock pickups back in as they seem to sound really good as shipped.

The level mismatching will not be a problem for me as all switching will be done by the HD and levels will be preset within the patches that use the mags.

How is your JTV experience going so far?

I wouldn't bet too strongly on the headroom assumption.  Putting headroom like that into the gear would affect the signal to noise ratio due to the signal being closer to the noise floor.  Ideally, you would want to have things set so that the signal is hitting the upper limits of what is achievable and just a tad below the clipping level to get a good signal to noise ratio.  Putting the signal down low close to the noise floor wouldn't be the best way to set things up from an audio tech perspective.

So, I would bet that any pickup with a hotter signal will most likely clip if the engineers were aiming for a good signal to noise ratio.

Yeah, the balance between the two is not really a big deal, it would only be if both were going through the same signal path within a patch, which some people might want to do.

I'm realy digging the JTV.  What's funny is having the two single coil pickups because my Strats have been American Deluxes with the noisless pickups, so it's weird for me hearing the noise from the pickups after not having normal single coils for more than 10 years, but I really am digging it.  I want to build a couple of dual channel patches for the HD500 this weekend, hopefully I'll get around to that and post them to custom tone.  The first one I'd like to do is a 12 string acoustic plus the humbucker to do a bit of a "Stairway to Heaven" thing.  Another I'd like to experiment with is an acoustic 12 string model up 1 octave to simulate a mandolin type sound sitting behind the magnetic pickup output.  It should be interesting.

I find myself playing the modelling more than the mags.  I get the feeling a lot of players will use the JTV as a standard electric and complement that with the modelling, but for me it's the other way around.  I'll predominantly use the modelling and complement that with the magnetics.

Anyway, it will be interesting to see how things work out with the hotter pickups.  I just really wouldn't be surprised to hear it clipping when sending the magnetic signal through the VDI.

Cheers,

Crusty



Re: sRe: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by mput on 2011-04-02 13:06:04

MarekRos,

LOL get a grip.  All these vintage rigs and axes you keep talking about cost thousands of dollars. Does The pods sound exactly like the amps?... no. But they sound really good.  Does the Variaxe sound exactly like a strat or an LP? ...no. But they sound really good. At a mere fraction of a fraction of the cost of the originals.

"So go sell and brainwash your venom to the next batch of beggining guitarists making sure they never learn any proper music theory or how to bias an amp...."

LOL what does a modeler have to do with music theory?  This is known as hyperbole

Make them believe it's all right and never let them know the particular feel of a les paul in an old JTM-45... The smokey dull licks on a hollow body strung with Thomastic Infeld Strings... The ring of a tele in a Vibro-King....

I know...sell them yours for $500 and then they will know.

IT"S NOT A BAD PRODUCT BUT QUIT PROMISING THAT IT CAN DO MORE THAN IT CAN DO.... IT CAN NOT REPLACE ALL THOSE GUITARS... PASSABLE.. BUT NOT ALL THE WAY ESPECIALLY FOR SOMEONE WHO IDENTIFIES STRONGLY WITH ONE!

The MarekRos advertising strategy.  "Buy our stuff because it sounds really ...ok.   Not great..  but ok. I guess"

hmm  sound kinda like FB3



Re: sRe: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by meambobbo on 2011-04-02 14:34:12

So, from what background do you base your critique of the survey questions?

Cheers,

Crusty

I like to rock.



Re: sRe: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by AZGdude on 2011-04-02 16:41:34

silverhead wrote:

Hey - AZGdude (the originator of this thread) - you may be right. It will NEVER die!!

Dang, I tune out for a little while and this thing just keeps a rolling on with out me   I guess I am a little happier with the update than some and also preoccupied with a super sweet Carvin CT3 I picked up used.



Yeah, enough said.
by Crusty_Old_Rocker on 2011-04-02 20:42:46

Okay, so you have no valid foundation to criticise the survey questions.  Thanks for clearing that up.

Cheers,

Crusty



Re: sRe: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by johnnyayyy on 2011-04-02 22:08:22

meambobbo wrote:

So, from what background do you base your critique of the survey questions?

Cheers,

Crusty

I like to rock.

<a target=new href=http://posterous.com/getfile/files.posterous.com/handpecked/cdRte3LwJIcPcKRyBMie1HRX7DfKBrXUnOmfnnBGXO5Z0sUpnpBvMkwIY6Z1/image001.jpg"class="jive-image" src="http://posterous.com/getfile/files.posterous.com/handpecked/cdRte3LwJIcPcKRyBMie1HRX7DfKBrXUnOmfnnBGXO5Z0sUpnpBvMkwIY6Z1/image001.jpg"/>



Re: Yeah, enough said.
by meambobbo on 2011-04-03 09:51:56

i have as much right to criticize as anyone else who decided to buy the thing.  I also have purchased an X3 live, an XT live, and a GuitarPort, so I'm a loyal Line 6 customer.  I've been playing guitar for over 15 years, and have owned a variety of amps and been around lots of good amps and good tone.

I'm not a professional, but I do make recordings, and I do use my Pod everyday.

I never saw any of the survey questions, but I should - I'm a primary customer for Line 6 - I fit their target market perfectly - someone who wants good tone but isn't willing to shell out thousands of dollars to get it.  I play a live setup and record direct as well.  If they want to appeal to the mass market hobbyists and more niche market professionals at the same time, I'm exactly the person you'd want to ask how to design your product.

And I'm not saying Line 6 should be making hybrid amp models - definitely go for authenticity.  I'm just saying that more people try to eliminate hum than enjoy it - virtually no one tries to add it.  Same goes for noise, etc.  If Line 6 could give optional controls over whether the amps had reduced hum, noise, or artifacts, that'd make everyone happy.

My point about the survey was that one can get certain results just based on the questions' wording. I'm thinking it was more about whether Line 6 should attempt to model more real amps or include some Line 6 custom creations, like the Line 6 amps in the previous Line 6 products.  Until we see the survey used, we are unable to determine exactly what features and authenticity were advocated or even up for debate.



Re: sRe: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by Mr_Arkadin on 2011-04-03 10:00:37

meambobbo wrote:

I think that Line 6 survey that Rick mentioned had some loaded questions, or was too abstract.

meambobbo wrote:

I never saw any of the survey questions

...er?



Re: sRe: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by meambobbo on 2011-04-03 12:40:10

yeah, i can only ASSUME what the questions were based upon what Rick said earlier, which was sparse.  That's why I said "I think".  I never claimed to know the questions.

He said the response was overwhelmingly in favor of authenticity.  Well, comparing the quality of the amp tones from the XT to the real amps, I would definitely want more authenticity too.  And Line 6 provided that in the HD.  And I'm also glad the totally invented Line 6 amps are gone (with the exception of the Clean one maybe).

I'm just saying I can't see many people commenting on the "legendary" amps that made the cut - "I really loved the obnoxious hum and near-unusable distortion of that amp.  It would be a dealbreaker for me if the twin reverb didn't break up in a bad way when using humbuckers."

That being said, if Line 6 could get the rich authentic tone when using single coils, near the quality of the real amp, then could mod it so it wouldn't break up when using humbuckers, so it would be usable to more users, I think that's a holistic solution; and this thread wouldn't be such a thorn in everyone's side.

At least they could have provided one amp that can produce a completely clean sound when putting a high gain humbucker into it.



Re: sRe: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by KozMcCharlie on 2011-04-03 17:24:22

I have a guitar with a super distortion and another with EMG 89 s in it and I have no issue whatsoever getting a clean sound. To qualify that, it's a clean sound like the one I would expect to get from a tube amp as opposed to a clean JC120 or whatever. If what you are looking for is a completely clean sound, try using no amp model and a compressor and EQ and stop acting like slamming a tube amp with a super hot signal would do anything different than the pod. You're being silly...



Re: sRe: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by meambobbo on 2011-04-03 20:30:13

i get good cleans as well, i just have to cut the gain before it hits the amp.  some people find this unacceptable, and others may never realize it.

i prefer the way the Fenders sound - all of them, as opposed to a solid state super clean amp, personally.  And they do sound best with single coils.  But I'm sure there are some tones out there that would be difficult to acheive without one.

I agree with your solution - I have recommended it as well.  Hopefully people try it.



Wise Words and Common Sense
by Crusty_Old_Rocker on 2011-04-03 21:57:34

KozMcCharlie wrote:


If what you are looking for is a completely clean sound, try using no amp model and a compressor and EQ and stop acting like slamming a tube amp with a super hot signal would do anything different than the pod. You're being silly...

Great to see some wise, common sense in this thread.  Thanks for posting, but you may want to don some flame retardant clothing because there appears to be a few who frequent this thead who believe that valve amps should stay pristine clean when slammed with a super hot signal.

Cheers,

Crusty



Re: Harsh/Fizzy/Digital Clipping Sound on Some Amp Models
by cabir on 2011-04-04 00:07:36

hullo,

i've come in very late in this discussion, and it's too long to read the whole thing (i did however read the first consolidated post)..

i have a suggestion... why can't the HD have a volume meter. i come from an ampsim background (guitar rig etc) and all the hardware/software lets you see what levels you're touching, and in case there's clipping, which module is causing it, so you can reduce the volume in that unit or the incoming volume from the module behind it in the rig. even the guitar input level can be set on the interface as well as in the software. i guess since we can't see the meter, we're in the dark about where in the chain is this happening.. it could be in the modelling, or it could just be in the AD/DA of the HD...

i've noticed a one off clip here and there in my HD500, even outside the problem being discussed here. if what's be discussed here is just generic audio clipping, it's can be solved if we had a meter to look at... unless ofcourse there's something waaay screwed up with the code...

what say..

kabir.



Re: Wise Words and Common Sense
by Rowbi on 2011-04-04 00:49:43

Crusty_Old_Rocker wrote:

KozMcCharlie wrote:


If what you are looking for is a completely clean sound, try using no amp model and a compressor and EQ and stop acting like slamming a tube amp with a super hot signal would do anything different than the pod. You're being silly...

Great to see some wise, common sense in this thread.  Thanks for posting, but you may want to don some flame retardant clothing because there appears to be a few who frequent this thead who believe that valve amps should stay pristine clean when slammed with a super hot signal.

Cheers,

Crusty

yep, that's my understanding too.  I've flicked back through some tume amp theory books I have. One of them discusses the early days of Fender and Gibson, and how Fender's preamps were designed to boost the lower signal of a single coil pickup to make it loud enough.  but using a fender amp: if you plugged in a Gibson with its stock humbuckers you got distortion... and not nice distortion.  so then take it a step further and add into the mix a dimed fender amp with its power tubes adding sizzle and also a super hot humbucker, and there you have it, fizz, and harsh sounding distortion.... technically clipping the tubes, but not clipping in the digital sense which a lot of people seem to be so used to these days, that I'm guessing that's why some people think there's clipping inside the POD, in part of the digital signal path.

if anyone is interested reply back to me and I'll post the ISBN and details of the book so anyone who is genuinely interested in understanding how tube amps work can have a read.... but honestly, some of it should be understood by every guitarist, as if we don't understand how to get the best tone from a real tube amp, then we're surely missing a piece of the puzzle, even when using a POD.  It is after all meant to behave in just the same way that a real tube amp does, so the same theory must apply to all of us wanting to get the best tones out of the POD.....

Cheers

Rowbi



Re: Wise Words and Common Sense
by chimp_spanner on 2011-04-04 03:26:31

I'll break character for a second and say I have actually gotten some really nice clean tones using the bypass amp method described above. I'm willing to be a lot of the sparkling clean tones you hear on a lot of recordings are DI'd, so to expect that level of clarity from a tube amp (modelled or otherwise) is maybe a bit unrealistic.

One of my favourite clean models on the X3 is the Jazz Clean. Even that has a bit of breakup at high drive (or high input levels). Most of the clean sounds on the HD aren't much different.



Re: Wise Words and Common Sense
by Crusty_Old_Rocker on 2011-04-04 04:10:01

You're so right Rowbi, many of the people on the forum have only experienced modelling of vintage amps and have never touched the real thing.

From very early in this whole debate I made the point that you mention, but due to the lack of first hand experience with vintage amps (particularly the Fender Twin), many of the users are completely unaware that what they were experiencing is what they would get out of the real deal.

Then there's all the rubbish about removing the authenticity from the amp sounds and the ridiculous claims that no guitarist would ever record such a sound.

If these young whipper snappers want to hear some proof that the sound does exist in real Fender amps and that some might consider it a desirable attribute and that it would be recorded by an accomplished guitarist then they should listen carefully to:


The introduction of The Rolling Stones "Brown Sugar"

Keith Richards is playing a Gibson SG (PAFs) into a Feder Twin.  Inexperienced valve amp users should be able to hear that "digital clipping" (LMAO) on that recording.

Reference: The "Brown Sugar" Sessions: Jimmy Johnson on Recording the Stones By Bruce Borgerson

So, you youngens, have a listen to that recording of a Fender Twin being hit with humbuckers and you'll hear your "digital clipping" from a time (recorded in 1969, released in 1971) when digital audio didn't exist!

I really don't know what else can be done to convince people that what they're hearing is a true characteristic of the Fender Twin.

Cheers,

Crusty

Message was edited by: Crusty_Old_Rocker to make it more politically "correct"



Re: Wise Words and Common Sense
by mput on 2011-04-04 04:23:17

"If these kids"

What a condescending attitude!



Re: Wise Words and Common Sense
by Crusty_Old_Rocker on 2011-04-04 04:47:42

Not condescending at all.  It's just that they are obviously too young to have played a real vintage Fender Twin or hear what the real thing sounds like when slammed.  Mature guitarists would know what they are hearing and have a clearer understanding of how valve amps work.

I'll reword if you like.

Cheers,

Crusty (as in Crusty OLD Rocker)



Re: Wise Words and Common Sense
by amgamg on 2011-04-04 05:50:11

chimp spanner wrote....

I'll break character for a second and say I have actually gotten some really nice clean tones using the bypass amp method described above. I'm willing to be a lot of the sparkling clean tones you hear on a lot of recordings are DI'd, so to expect that level of clarity from a tube amp (modelled or otherwise) is maybe a bit unrealistic.

So I'm reading this and I just had to ask...breaking of character???? Is that meant to mean there is some group of you determined to change the direction of the HD, by weighting the conversation in a certain direction regardless of how you may really feel?



Re: Wise Words and Common Sense
by Rowbi on 2011-04-04 05:55:28

mput wrote:

"If these kids"

What a condescending attitude!

I don't think he was being condescending, and I fit into the 'kids' he's talking about.  being only 29 and having never played a vintage fender amp in my life.  I mean lets face it, they were becoming vintage when I was still wearing nappys!  But that doesn't mean it's beyond us to learn... we just have to want to learn that stuff, as it's not around us all day like it was back in the day... as there wasn't much choice in amps like today.

Regards

Rowbi

aka, one of the Djent kids... and proud of it too



Re: Wise Words and Common Sense
by amgamg on 2011-04-04 05:57:32

Crusty_Old_Rocker wrote:

Not condescending at all.  It's just that they are obviously too young to have played a real vintage Fender Twin or hear what the real thing sounds like when slammed.  Mature guitarists would know what they are hearing and have a clearer understanding of how valve amps work.

I'll reword if you like.

Cheers,

Crusty (as in Crusty OLD Rocker)

Crusty I think you've got it. There is a rift in the way younger players believe what amps should sound like. I knew this day would come..I just never thought things would go backwards. So at some point the perfect sound will be a sound that never was. It'll be disappointing since I believe modeling has finally nearly become what I thought many people had hoped it would. I guess rock has died and the sound of it right along with it...or at least it may be on its way! I dunno..depressing in a way.



Re: Wise Words and Common Sense
by JerryWawak on 2011-04-04 06:04:52

I can't speak for anyone else, but my longing for acoustic sims and cleaner amps comes from the X3, not some fantasy world where I pretend that vintage amps are sterile.  It just seems like the HD concentrates so much on realism that they took away some of the things I liked about some amp models from the X3.



Re: Wise Words and Common Sense
by Rowbi on 2011-04-04 06:10:44

amgamg wrote:

Crusty_Old_Rocker wrote:

Not condescending at all.  It's just that they are obviously too young to have played a real vintage Fender Twin or hear what the real thing sounds like when slammed.  Mature guitarists would know what they are hearing and have a clearer understanding of how valve amps work.

I'll reword if you like.

Cheers,

Crusty (as in Crusty OLD Rocker)

Crusty I think you've got it. There is a rift in the way younger players believe what amps should sound like. I knew this day would come..I just never thought things would go backwards. So at some point the perfect sound will be a sound that never was. It'll be disappointing since I believe modeling has finally nearly become what I thought many people had hoped it would. I guess rock has died and the sound of it right along with it...or at least it may be on its way! I dunno..depressing in a way.

While I agree with your main idea, I think there's room for both the vintage authentic crowd, and the 'it must sound it's best at the cost of the authenticity' crowd....

Miller hinted that the cool things a while back... Well maybe there's a chance those cool things may help us.  obviously it's just guessing for now, but who knows.



Re: Wise Words and Common Sense
by