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Line6 + Rode HS-1
by bad_ri on 2011-04-01 07:30:34

Hello everyone!

I am a sound tech guy From city puppet theatre Rijeka. Lately we were finding a solution for our wireless headsets, as our old Shure LX88 system is beggining to lack in performance.

We were offered to buy Line6 xd-70l system and to expand them with Rode Hs-1 headsets. We also use some old AKG headsets with existing shure transmitters and receivers. Here is the problem: Lavalier mics from Line6 work great with the original system, but I find headworn mics more suitable for some live shows we do. Audiopro sold us the Rode HS-1 headsets along with MICON3 adapters that can hook-up with Line6 transmitters. But the micon adapters kept buring out, because they were fitted with 4,7KOhm resistors. The gain from HS-1 condenser mic is just to high for Line6 transmitter to hande, and I get a lot of distorted signal. The gain knob on my sounddesk is set to min, and the gain is still to high. When I hook up old AKG mics, I get pretty decent sound and no distortion or clipping. Mr Andrew Taylor from Rode Support was kind enough to make me a modified MICON adapters, fitted with 10K resistors (as original Line6 lavaliers have in their 4pin mini xlr), but I still get too much of "gain" from my transmitters/receivers, even with low SPL from actors voices. Still I have to keep my gain knob on the sound desk as low as possible.

Does anybode have an idea what kind of resitor would make this gain from HS-1 headset acceptable for Line 6 XD transmitter to handle without distortion. I say again, my old AKG mics work perfectly with this new system, and I would love this Rode mics to work as well. Help please.



Re: Line6 + Rode HS-1
by dboomer on 2011-04-01 13:20:05

It's hard to imaging that with the trim control turned all the way down you are getting too strong a signal for your mixer to handle.

The transmitter input can handle 6V p-p.  The Rode spec says it can only output 189 mV.  When you first lit up the top audio LED you still have 20 dB of headroom.

You could try omitting the pull-up resistor altogether as the Rode mics do have about 12 dB more gain than our supplied mic.  Or you could use our headset ... which just started shipping a few days ago.



Re: Line6 + Rode HS-1
by bad_ri on 2011-04-01 22:25:57

I know it's hard to imagine, but the signal from the mic keep getting to "hot". I tried it more than a few combinations: one receiver, antenna terminators connected properly, signal integrity is always excellent, but there is just to much of gain in it. Gain trimmed down, and I get clip from the receiver when Rode is connected. When I connect AKG c477 fitted with 560Ohms resistor, everything wokrs great - I can handle the signal from receiver just as it was a dynamic mic, put the gain knob almost to 12 o'clock position and get no signal distortion at all.

I am confused and a bit angry at our dealers, because we do not have compatible components in our system, and they reccomended it.

I don't think my managers would approve me the money for 10 more headsets, because we have money management planned in advance. So we just have to find a solution for  these HS-1 headsets to work. I'll contact Mr Taylor from Rode support and tell him about the headrom and the signal specs and see if they can come up with an idea. I just hope we don't have to change the whole system all over again, because I really enjoy this kind of wireless distribution, we didn't have a single signal drop-down in two months of usage.



Re: Line6 + Rode HS-1
by dboomer on 2011-04-02 07:07:29

I'm not sure I understand what problem we are trying to fix.  Do you think the mic is overdriving the transmitter or do yu think the receiver is overdriving the input to the mixer?

You mention the trim control at 12 o'clock. do you hear distortion if you turn the trim all the way down?



Re: Line6 + Rode HS-1
by bad_ri on 2011-04-02 08:06:40

I think the microphone is overloading the transmitter, because the sound gets distorted very quickly even when the volume ladder on receiver barely light up the highest led indicator on the receiver. As a result, I get very hot signal coming out of the receiver and I have to set gain all the way to the left (minimum gain). Even with the gain set to min, I hear distortion, so it must be the microphone overloading the transmitter.

When I use AKG headset or Line6 condenser lavalier, I don't get to hot signal and I can use gain knob on my sound desks as if I was using regular dyanamic handled mic (SM58 or similar).



Re: Line6 + Rode HS-1
by dboomer on 2011-04-03 14:25:56

What am I missing?  The Rode mic only puts out 1/30th of the voltage necessary to clip the transmitter according to its spec.

Have you tried eliminating the pullup resistor as I suggested?  What happens then?



Re: Line6 + Rode HS-1
by bad_ri on 2011-04-04 08:38:00

     I understand that specs say one thing, and actual usage of the mics gives me a headache with the distortion.

I will try ommiting the resitor tomorrow as soon as I get to work. I did not quite understand the usage of that resitor, as you call it "pull up". What is the meaning of that term, and what it does to the voltage that is supplied from transmitter to the microphone? When we were converting AKG mics to operate with Shure LX88, we had to solder 560Ohm resistors to minixlr connectors.

     At RODE they thought that we should try them with 10K resistors, as the original 4,7K were blowing-up when used with HS-1 and XD-V. They think that there is too much voltage getting to the mic and that may be the cause of overload. I will also check how voltage change with the Micon adapters equipped with 4,7K and 10K resistors.

     I will also check to see how HS-1 operate with LX88, becase I want to compare it to the AKG c477 that operate perfectly on both LX88 and LINE6 transmitter/receiver system. LX88 has the gain pot on the transmitter, so I will set it as low as possible and compare the signal with the LINE6 output.

Hope we find a solution fast,

Best regards,

          Srdjan



Re: Line6 + Rode HS-1
by bad_ri on 2011-04-04 10:42:08

Here is something that may help us...  I am not an electronics engineer, but looking at the parts made me think...

http://www.beam-wiki.org/wiki/Electret_microphone

A simple schematic of electret mics....

I noticed a resistor and a capacitor in the original Line6 Lavalier 4-pin XLR connector....

I also noticed that there is no such capacitor in Akg and Shure designs...

Maybe they put the capacitors that block DC current component inside the transmitter, and Line 6 puts theirs intro 4-pin XLR connector on a little pcb...

As Micon adapters don't have those capacitors, can it be that we are having DC issues here? Maybe the DC current component messes up with the signal current and makes it distorted and too "hot"?

What capacitor values and what kind of capacitor (block or electrolytic) should we use to achieve effective DC current block not to leak into signal?

The upper text made me think further, and I found these mod's people used to make some akg mics to work with shure transmitters:

http://shure.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/7/~/pin-out-for-shure-bodypack-transmitters---ta4m-%2F-ta4f

http://shure.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/320/~/how-do-i-connect-an-akg-ck77-to-a-shure-bodypack%3F

maybe the same solution applies here in trying to use hs-1 with line6 transmitters? partly I find the answer to my previous question about capacitor model

Message was edited by: bad_ri



Re: Line6 + Rode HS-1
by boswell2007 on 2011-04-04 12:04:04

The capacitor/ resistor on the Mini PCB in the Line6 TAF4 connector are

10K and 10uF

HTH



Re: Line6 + Rode HS-1
by bad_ri on 2011-04-04 22:18:04

Thank you!

I mailed the info to RODE, hope it will help them.

Still I have a concern: if the DC blocking capacitor is inside the xlr, and not in the transmitter itself, how come the AKG microphone works with Line6 transmitter correctly?



Re: Line6 + Rode HS-1
by boswell2007 on 2011-04-05 11:26:44

Maybe the block cap is inside or part of the AKG mic head or the AKG due to its internal config does not require a blocking cap.

I use cheap mics and they don't require a cap just a resistor.



Re: Line6 + Rode HS-1
by bad_ri on 2011-04-05 22:05:20

Ok, I got the basic picture... yesterday I was experimenting on the universal PCB making mods with variable resistors to see how does limiting the bias voltage effects the HS-1 capsule. It works almost the same when fed with 5 volts (no resistor) and with resistor set to 5K or 10K. The voltage drops almost to 0,98V when I set the resistor to 20K, and then I noticed gain reduction a bit. I also tried the blocking capacitor 10uF. It audibly reduces bass boom from the voice, not too much though. Today I will just check the possibility of reducing the signal gain with some kind of signal pad (maybe 10dB) just to see the result. I will try it with the schematic from attached picture.

I am waiting a response from Rode to see if the 0,98v will have any effect on durability of the capsule, and if it will not cause any damage, do you think will it the ok to produce connector with 20K resistor and a blocking capacitor?

Thank you for the info and replies it is very helpful.



Re: Line6 + Rode HS-1
by bad_ri on 2011-04-07 01:13:45

Yesterday I was experimentig with the signal pads, and I found this solutiuon from the attached schematic to work well...

With the pad build like this and with these component values, I don't light up the upper led in the signal ladder on the receiver and I don't get clipped signal to my sound desks (before I was getting clip with channel gain set to min). This solution only gets me distorted sound if the capsule itself if exposed to SPL that it cannot handle. Still I got no clip on the receiver output, as the main signal amplitude is padded.

Will this have any effect oh the battery life in my xd-v70 units? I didn't get the chance to test it fully, as I cannot give connector made like this to my actors because they would destroy it (it's not yet a built in solution).

I ommitted the blockign capacitor, as 10uF cuts to much bass frequencies and adds kind of whining noise to the signal. Maybe 10pF block capacitor would do the job of DC blocking, but I assume there is one in the transmitter.



RE: Line6 + Rode HS-1
by laplayantonio on 2011-04-07 04:13:19

hello

I'm afraid we cannot directly help you, as this needs to be tested directly on this third-party hardware

please contact Rode support, or simply try test using a potentiometer/adjustable resistor to find out the right value

line6antonio



Re: RE: Line6 + Rode HS-1
by bad_ri on 2011-04-07 06:14:37

I'll test it in a few days, and I'll get back with the info...

So far, the signal does not overload my mic inputs on sound desks anymore (I use Soundcraft K3, Soundcraft Spirit 16-4-2 Live and Behringer Mx8000).

But it seems to me that the microphone capsule from HS-1 mics does not handle SPL declared on the specs page, or I was given used or slightly damaged mics from my local dealer.




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