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Another JTV delay...!!
by tmjohn on 2011-04-16 07:12:58

Still now firm news on expected delivery date for the  JTV's. However, Thomann have updated their expected delivery date, moving it back yet again from June to August 2011!

Despite all of the comments regrading the issues/reasons for the production delays...I think Line 6 have screwed up and failed its loyal and faithful customers miserably.

They should never have released the guitar initially with these faults and issues as reported. And, there must be more issues than have been suggested by line 6 to cause such massive delays in delivering the product.

If the only problems were simply items such switches and/or even the bridges, then surely the majority of the guitar production would not be effected, and fitting the "revised" parts would be a relatively quick and simple operation. Do they actually have the solutions to the problems yet? let alone the necessary parts manufactured to implement  the "fixes" .

Its about time we were given comprehensive and honest information regarding all of the issues and "realistic" expected delivery dates for various countries worldwide.

They obviously know how many "back orders" they have to fulfill, where these are, and if the fixes have been decided, how long it will take to finish and ship the guitars out to the thousands of waiting dealers and customers.

I have been waiting for months now and every month, it seems that the date gets pushed back again and again, without any  explanation being offered.

  

Come on Line 6, its about time you gave us the real story, stop stringing us along, and give the waiting customers (many of whom have already paid up front, many months ago) the relevant information to enable us to make a decision on how long we are each willing to wait!

 



Re: Another JTV delay...!!
by gtrman100 on 2011-04-16 07:50:31

Have you read the other thread (Expected Release Date??)? At the end Rich Renken of L6 explains why the delay has occurred. Other than the switches on the 59, I haven't heard of any design faults of any of the guitars. Even though he wasn't specific, Rich seemed to be suggesting that the problems were in production, that it was a difficult product to build, and they want to make sure that the first big run of guitars is as good as possible. He expressed frustration and was apologetic for the delay and the incovenience for all those who ordered the JTVs.



Re: Another JTV delay...!!
by tmjohn on 2011-04-16 09:09:34

Yes, I did read that post.

Despite what he is saying, The build is not that much more complicated than any other guitar to build. The electronics are mostly mounted and installed as a single unit. If there is a difference in the build time it will be relatively tiny compared to the total build time of any conventional electric guitar. Its certainly not the cause of the suggested issue of build quantity and or quality. Regardless, they would have known exactly what the build time and production capabilities were when the signed the contract.

The factory is capable of building many thousands of guitars in a single week even day, the fact that we are told that they are being produced in batches of one hundred! will not be simply that the factory can't build more in a batch. There are obviously other reasons. And, normally any quality issues would be corrected very quickly, usually before release! Fixing the tree way switch issue for example, would not effect the build time. It should have caused a very short production delay, whilst rectifying or sourcing a new supply of switches. Again. this should be possible in a couple of weeks, not 6 months or more to sort out!

Finally, if it was a model specific issue, then why has production of all models been delayed??



Re: Another JTV delay...!!
by gtrman100 on 2011-04-16 10:55:48

Despite what he's saying?? Are you saying you know more than Rich about the inner workings of the World Music factory, about their production schedule for Line 6 and other manufacturers, about parts supply shipments, and build quality control? Are you saying you know more than Rich about the increased difficulty in building these guitars compared to a simple electric guitar? You're making these catagorical statements based on what inside information? BTW, no one I know said anything about the problems being model specific, except for the 59 switches, which Rich himself said that the had to DESIGN A NEW SWITCH and have it built to work with the existing electronics.

I'm not apologising for the problems Line 6 has had with this rollout, I don't work for them, and don't have a dog in this hunt, but Rich has apologised several times, and tried to explain the problems. You have a perfect right to be upset, but making statements that are contrary to the facts won't get you anywhere.



Re: Another JTV delay...!!
by tmjohn on 2011-04-16 12:14:24

What I am saying is....

Anyone with a modicum of intelligence can see that we are not being told the whole story here.

You are equally entitled to your naive interpretation of the statements put out by Line 6's PR man, as I am to holding a more realistic and reasonable  opinion, that: The problems they are reporting, should not alone equate to huge delays in delivering the product.

Adding insult to injury, they have repeatedly failed to deliver on their expected delivery dates, which continue to move further back.

There is nothing special about the production requirements of the guitar, it is after all an electric guitar with some additional (pre manufactured) electronic components fitted. World Music produce many excellent quality guitars, which at least equal some of the supposed high end manufacturers, so their is no reason to assume that the problems relate to their incompetence.

My opinion is that the issues relate to the either bridge and/or electronics. Certainly World Music would rectify any issues in the build/production very quickly (they are experts in building guitars after all) or face financial penalties for late delivery, not to mention damage to their reputation.

Oh, and I do not pretend to know more than "Rich". Rich may well know what all the issues are, but that is not the same as telling us (or being allowed to tell us) the truth. Wake up man!

Finally, I don't believe that I have made any "statements that are contrary to the facts". I have expressed my opinion base on knowledge, experience, and more importantly having realistic and reasonable consumer expectations.

I challenge Line 6 to come clean and tell us exactly:

1, Which models are/or have been delayed

2, Specifically what issues have caused any delays on each of the models (production and/or components)

3, Specifically which part of the production and/or components have failed quality control

3, Why they have failed to rectify the issues within a reasonable time frame.

4, Why they are, as suggested, producing in prototype size production runs on 100 guitars only

5, How long will it take at this rate of production to deliver all the guitars ordered to date

6, How many (of the revised) guitars have actually been delivered, and to where

7, Why are the US made versions suffering similar delays in delivery if the issues are not due to electronics issues???



Re: Another JTV delay...!!
by MartinHines on 2011-04-16 18:01:43

Rich Renken has stated the JTV backlog will be cleared by Late Summer/Early Fall.

I think that is all the information you are going to get from Line 6.   Much of the other information you have requested is not information that manufacturers provide due to competitive concerns.



Re: Another JTV delay...!!
by sparkyERTW on 2011-04-16 18:57:09

tmjohn wrote:

What I am saying is....

Anyone with a modicum of intelligence can see that we are not being told the whole story here.

http://blogs.msdn.com/b/oldnewthing/archive/2011/02/11/10127845.aspx



Re: Another JTV delay...!!
by gtrman100 on 2011-04-16 19:52:41

sparkyERTW wrote:

tmjohn wrote:

What I am saying is....

Anyone with a modicum of intelligence can see that we are not being told the whole story here.

http://blogs.msdn.com/b/oldnewthing/archive/2011/02/11/10127845.aspx

Sorry,I'm not intelligent enough to understand that...



Re: Another JTV delay...!!
by laelamiles on 2011-04-16 20:06:20

sparkyERTW wrote:

tmjohn wrote:

What I am saying is....

Anyone with a modicum of intelligence can see that we are not being told the whole story here.

http://blogs.msdn.com/b/oldnewthing/archive/2011/02/11/10127845.aspx


ARaymond Chen link???  Mind is blown.



Re: Another JTV delay...!!
by thegreatoz on 2011-04-17 14:18:24

sparkyERTW wrote:

http://blogs.msdn.com/b/oldnewthing/archive/2011/02/11/10127845.aspx

LOLI understood it!

+1



Re: Another JTV delay...!!
by sparkyERTW on 2011-04-17 15:23:48

laelamiles wrote:

sparkyERTW wrote:

tmjohn wrote:

What I am saying is....

Anyone with a modicum of intelligence can see that we are not being told the whole story here.

http://blogs.msdn.com/b/oldnewthing/archive/2011/02/11/10127845.aspx


ARaymond Chen link???  Mind is blown.

Hey, someone who recognizes Raymond Chen... do we have another code monkey in our midst?



Re: Another JTV delay...!!
by edstar1960 on 2011-04-18 02:42:34

You are not going to get that info from Line6 - Rich has already told us as much as he can and more than any other company would.

To summarise: We are not getting our JTVs quickly enough simply  because there are not enough of them to go round.  This is because the  factory has not yet ramped up to full production levels because Line6  are carefully controlling and monitoring quality at this point.  Once  full production levels are reached the back log will be fulfilled - Line6 expects this to be by September 2011.

There really is nothing more than that.

Knowing they have only produced hundreds but that they have thousands of back orders means we can work out why there is such a monumental delay.  Just do the math.  Knowing that people have ordered all over the world and via different dealers and that there is such a shortage in supply explains why it seems so hit and miss whether people get their order fulfilled within months or for some almost a year.

We also know from reading between the lines that Line6 have not built the same quantity for each of the 8 JTV models made in Korea (ie: Rich has stated that they had most pre-orders for the JTV89 and hence that is what they made most of and latest update to my dealer from Line6 stated that the next expected shipment of a couple of hundred JTVs to UK will not have any JTV59s in it).  We also can guess that at least approx 800 JTVs have been produced so far, based on shipments delivered and comments from Rich - so even if they produced the same quantity of each (which we know they haven't) then that would mean there has only been about 100 of each model shipped globally.   Given they have thousands of back orders - then they have a way to go to fulfill demand - and no wonder some of us on here are still waiting (me included).   Given that they also have thousands of dealers and maybe only a 100 or so of each model then its no surprise that some dealers have not seen any yet or have only seen a couple of some of the models.

I really wish it wasn't so but thats the way it is.  I don't believe there is any conspiracy or anything being withheld - it is simply supply versus demand coupled with lack of hard factual information (frustrating but understandable given the sales/competitive nature of the info required) which has led to this situation.



Re: Another JTV delay...!!
by cwallmeier on 2011-04-18 04:04:05

hi everyone!

I've following the "other" thread since there were like 10 posts on it, trying to decide if I should order the guitar, so I'm "informed" and I wanted to give my two cents.

I ordered a JTV 69 Black on december and I´ve been cool about all the delays and what not. Even as the guitars started shipping in January and I knew we in Europe won´t be seeing any of them, I was cool.

I ordered mine from Music Store in Germany, why? you asked, if I followed the thread... Well everytime there was a delay Rich came around and said something that I thought meant the guitars were shipping soon, now he says the same but summer or autumn is not that soon, isn´t it? I mean I don´t really "need" the guitar, is not like I´m recording something and I need it, for me guitar playing is just a hobby. Now am getting really anxious. Everytime Music Store gets a shipment they only get 89s and they have them a couple of weeks on stock, if the were preorders they wouldn´t be on stock, wouldn´t they? I´ve tried to talk to them but they just say they got nothing to do with it and they are also waiting. I mean here in Germany customer service is really bad and I mean really bad, so everytime the push the deadline I have to wait at least 2 weeks to hear something about it (and only if I call them). I don´t really care why aren´t the guitars shipping, I just want my guitar, if they are having problems with the production they should inform the dealers and thay should take the guitar off their websites.

I work also in a bussines where I have to meet deadlines, my customers don´t care why or which problems I have to meet the dead line, they want their product. If they don`t get it I have to make something special or just go down on the price. I stop giving information why I´m missing the deadline and just give information what they are getting extra because I missed the dead line (dropped the ball? )

It would be interesting to know why are the 89s (and I know, I know, they were preorders ) all over the place but the 69s are so rare, the 59 had a switch problem and I can understand the delay.

I just wish they would ship the thing already, I`m a very patient man, but c´mon! enough is enough!

And all the guy giving arguments why L6 have done everything they can, I admire you, I wish I had as much patience as you do and I wish I would believe in the good in men, but I work in advertisement and you know what? After 2 weeks on this bussines you would´t either

hey! it took me only 5 months to write about it, I have to check again if I really am a patient man

Have a good one, still wating and hoping...



Re: Another JTV delay...!!
by RichRenken on 2011-04-19 13:10:51

First, thank you guys for jumping to my defense. I appreciate it. But also, I have no problem answering tmjohn.

tmjohn wrote:

There is nothing special about the production requirements of the guitar, it is after all an electric guitar with some additional (pre manufactured) electronic components fitted. World Music produce many excellent quality guitars, which at least equal some of the supposed high end manufacturers, so their is no reason to assume that the problems relate to their incompetence.

This is not true. There is a lot that is special and  completely out of the ordinary requirements for a normal guitar.

I challenge Line 6 to come clean and tell us exactly:

1, Which models are/or have been delayed

2, Specifically what issues have caused any delays on each of the models (production and/or components)

3, Specifically which part of the production and/or components have failed quality control

3, Why they have failed to rectify the issues within a reasonable time frame.

4, Why they are, as suggested, producing in prototype size production runs on 100 guitars only

5, How long will it take at this rate of production to deliver all the guitars ordered to date

6, How many (of the revised) guitars have actually been delivered, and to where

7, Why are the US made versions suffering similar delays in delivery if the issues are not due to electronics issues???

1. All models have been delayed until December 2010 when we started shipping in limited quantity

2.  Last year we had trouble with the bridge manufacturer. That is the only  delay we had that mattered. There have been other small things. That is  why we started shipping in Dec instead of Oct. Remember my famous, we  are shipping Oct 1st statement? That is why we don't give out specific  dates and I never will again.

3. None have failed quality control since we have been shipping.

3. You had to number 3 questions so this is the answer to the second number 3 question. We rectified the issue last year.

4.  I have no idea where you got the 100 guitars only figure. I have NEVER   said that. We do them in runs of hundreds. I am not going to publish  the exact numbers, that is not our competitions business. But we have  shipped hundreds and hundreds at a time. When we get to where we are  flowing the way we want to be it will be thousands and thousands.

5.  Late Summer/Early fall ish.... the ish is because I am not going to  give specific dates. And two because we don't know how many more back  orders are going to come in. Despite the few guys who are posting about  buying other things and canceling orders. Back orders continue to come  in, because, quite frankly, the JTVs kick booty.

6.  I can not get into where exactly. One, because it is not my job, that  lies over in Sales. Two, we are a big company with many relationships  and dealers all over the world with all their own specific parameters  and procedures. It is super complicated.

7. The US is delayed  because of the bridges. I said that last year. So once we ramped up the  new bridge manufacturer, we kicked in the US production. So we will be  shipping those starting in late May. Guys who order boutique gear  understand that US production is extremely constrained anyway because  they are hand built. I ordered a simple jazz bass from Lakland and it  took 9 months. Sometimes it is faster, sometimes slower.

In  summation. You are implying that something sinister is afloat and I am a  PR man. That is just not the case. That would actually be easier to  come in here and give you some kind of "PR" speech and butter you up and  say "woo hoo". I am not. I am just as bummed to have had the delays we  had last year as you are. I, in fact, was pissed. Sorry for the  frankness. But we are shipping now and we are shipping slowly because  these are not a couple pickups and some pots. There is a computer built  into the guitar with its own power supply. It is complicated. So again, I  am SO SORRY that you guys who are waiting are still waiting, especially  the guys who have been waiting since last summer and before and again, I  thank you guys for your patience and I understand when your patience  gets worn thin. I truly do.



Re: Another JTV delay...!!
by rico on 2011-04-19 15:22:24

After all the sorry (I guess a couple of hundreds by now)  there's still no JTV's in sight for Europe. I just got my 5th delay from Music Store today! To me Line 6 is just making things up about shipping JTV's to Europe in order to frustrate us over and over again. Giving no figures because other companies don't do that is just a way to hide behind this policy. I really really think they want us to give up our lower price pre-orders. Keep up the good work guys! You're almost there!



Re: Another JTV delay...!!
by Nick_Mattocks on 2011-04-20 02:18:29

rico wrote:

After all the sorry (I guess a couple of hundreds by now)  there's still no JTV's in sight for Europe. I just got my 5th delay from Music Store today! To me Line 6 is just making things up about shipping JTV's to Europe in order to frustrate us over and over again. Giving no figures because other companies don't do that is just a way to hide behind this policy. I really really think they want us to give up our lower price pre-orders. Keep up the good work guys! You're almost there!

Whilst I hear your frustration and sympathise with it (I too have had a JTV-59 on order since last August), the guitars are coming and when you do finally get yours I'm sure you will be blown away by it.  I have played all three models back in February and they really are very nicely made instruments before you even consider the electronics which is a whole other story of excellence.

Rich has repeatedly stated the reasons for the delays and he has repeatedly apologised for them.  He is just as upset as you are on all our behalves - he's said so repeatedly. He's also repeatedly stated the approximate numbers coming out of the factory and he's repeatedly given us whatever information he has at hand as to where any shipments from the factory are going (US or UK).  He doesn't work in sales as I think he may just have mentioned once or twice.  Line 6 are honouring their pre-price rise prices with their dealer network as I understand it, and that being the case your dealer with whom you have a contract to buy the guitar (not Line 6) should honour the price they agreed with you.  Your dealer will be able to get a better idea from Line 6 about when they can expect deliveries.

The logistics behind who gets what and when is not under Rich's control.  There really is no sinister plot to make people want to bail out of their lower pre-price rise deals - why would you think that?  What possible reason could Line 6 have for wanting to play with us and start making stuff up about shipping dates just to frustrate us?  Do you honestly and truly think that is the way any sane company would behave?   Sorry, but that's just plain silliness talking.

Line 6 genuinely want you and me and whoever to get a great guitar and I'm certain that Line 6 are just as fed up as you are about the delays, but those delays are/were necessary to get the product right.  The plot is to ensure that when users get their guitars that they are 100% pleased with them and that they are as good as they can possibly be for the money being paid.   It makes perfect sense to start with smaller production runs rather than immediately going into the realms of thousands, so that if any faults do appear such as the JTV-59 switch fault, that those issues can be dealt with in a controlled way.

Rather than hiding behind any policies, I think you'll find that Line 6 and Rich in particular has been way way more open about the various issues behind the delays than you'd find any other company would be in a similar situation.

If you feel you can't wait any longer for your JTV. then I'm sure everyone will understand why you can't wait, but there is nothing else out there currently that comes anywhere near what the JTV can do.  So you have a choice to make: either you stick it out and wait for your new guitar or you cancel and maybe you buy back in at a later date at the higher price or maybe you don't.  Whatever you do is entirely in your hands.  The guitars are coming - and that's certain.

I have a number of guitars already as I'm sure you do.  It's not going to kill me to wait a bit longer and I'm sure it's not going to kill anyone else either.   It's not like we don't have an instrument to play whilst we wait.  The JTVs are all great and fantastic guitars, but they are just guitars whichever way you look at it and us having to wait a little longer than we would have liked is relatively insignificant when you consider what's really going on in the world with the state of affairs in the Middle East and Japan at the moment as well as other stuff that we see every day in our own back yards

Here's to the day you and I eventually receive our guitars - but until then just try and keep things in real perspective as getting worked up about it is just not good for anyone's health and it won't achieve anything useful if we do get worked up about it.

Nick



Re: Another JTV delay...!!
by rico on 2011-04-20 04:43:23

Nick wrote:

Rich has repeatedly stated the reasons for the delays and he has repeatedly apologised for them.  He is just as upset as you are on all our behalves - he's said so repeatedly. He's also repeatedly stated the approximate numbers coming out of the factory and he's repeatedly given us whatever information he has at hand as to where any shipments from the factory are going (US or UK).  He doesn't work in sales as I think he may just have mentioned once or twice.  Line 6 are honouring their pre-price rise prices with their dealer network as I understand it, and that being the case your dealer with whom you have a contract to buy the guitar (not Line 6) should honour the price they agreed with you.  Your dealer will be able to get a better idea from Line 6 about when they can expect deliveries.

My dealer (like every other dealer I contacted) is NOT able to get a better idea since Line 6 is telling them zero nothing nada other more than "hold on, you'll get your guitars" for over 5 months now.

The logistics behind who gets what and when is not under Rich's control.  There really is no sinister plot to make people want to bail out of their lower pre-price rise deals - why would you think that?  What possible reason could Line 6 have for wanting to play with us and start making stuff up about shipping dates just to frustrate us?  Do you honestly and truly think that is the way any sane company would behave?   Sorry, but that's just plain silliness talking. 

Line 6 commitment to honor the pre-price rise prices IS the fact that they are frustrating us! Sit down and do some math with me: pre-order-low-price JTV's approx 1000, times the average difference of 220 per guitar is uuuh .... 220.000 euro's or 315.000 dollars. One hundred cancellations already makes a difference of ten thousands of dollars. You think 1000 pre orders is too high a number? How come almost 1000 people a day log in to the subject "Expected release date"? No offense to Rich, he just stuck between a rock (Line6) and hard place (us). Rich is not the one to blame, I truly believe he is as frustrated as we are. I do hope he gets respects to the full from his employer, because he's the messenger who has to give us this bad new. It's those sales people who talk Grosse Stierscheisse (as we know it in Germany). They convinced us to buy this guitar 13 month ago (march 2010 Frankfurt Musikmesse) and also promised me I'd have one in September (2010 by the way). I also understand the quality issues delay Rich explained to us, but the delay (for European orders) is more than 7 month now, do you think that's normal? I really really don't understand why Music Store & Thomann (who acquired the very first orders of this guitar) didn't get any guitars yet.

If you feel you can't wait any longer for your JTV. then I'm sure everyone will understand why you can't wait, but there is nothing else out there currently that comes anywhere near what the JTV can do.  So you have a choice to make: either you stick it out and wait for your new guitar or you cancel and maybe you buy back in at a later date at the higher price or maybe you don't. 

See! You DO understand how marketing & making money works!



Re: Another JTV delay...!!
by jayson2 on 2011-04-20 15:43:46

Hi Rico,

While I can appreciate your frustration in the delay (I've put a deposit on a JTV-69 in September 2010 that I'm still waiting on and am not expecting until this summer base on Rich's posts), I don't think your math is accurate as it doesn't include the costs that Line 6 have already incurred to research and develop the JTV.  They also would have probably placed large orders for parts that are sitting around waiting to be assembled once they ramp up.  I also highly doubt James Tyler has not recieved some form of payment for designing and using this name to market the guitars.  So, given this, I would think that Line 6 would be more concerned about recouping costs they have invested than delaying delivery of a product on the chance that some buyers would cancel their orders at the pre-release price.  Just IMHO.

Cheers,

jayson



Re: Another JTV delay...!!
by silverhead on 2011-04-20 15:49:01

rico wrote:

...

See! You DO understand how marketing & making money works!

I think we all understand how matrketing and making money works. And I think what several of us are trying to tell you is that your theory is paranoid and silly. That's not the way any company who wants repeat customers works. I think what you're suggesting is the way a company that has been around for two weeks and expects to be around for another one works.



Re: Another JTV delay...!!
by Nick_Mattocks on 2011-04-21 00:44:28

Rico

Whether Line 6 is able to tell your dealer anything new or not at this stage, still doesn't alter the fact that when Line 6 does have some news for your dealer, then your dealer will be given that news and they will be able to tell you when you are likely to get your guitar.  Your dealer is the best and only place for you to get reliable information about when you will get your guitar.  At the moment they don't appear to know anything new, and that's what they are able to tell you.

How the guitars that do come into stock will be spread around the dealers is something that can only be worked out by whoever is in control of distribution and they can only decide who gets what and based on what criteria when they themselves know what stock they have available.  The likelihood is of course that they will have an idea of what's been shipped from Korea and when, but no matter how much we ask for that private and privileged information, it is not going to be shared publicly.  There are lots and lots of people on various waiting lists at lots of retailers who may or may not be in front of us in the queues for these JTVs and those at the front of those queues should be treated fairly and served first.  I can't say whereabouts companies like Thomman come in those various queues as I haven't seen Line 6's oder book obviously, but I would imagine that any guitars they might have already received were already spoken for and will probably have gone out of the door already - if of course they've received any at all.

I do understand how marketing works as well as most people do.  As has already been pointed out to you, your logic is flawed when it comes to the maths.

The simple facts are that at the moment there are a lot of back orders to fulfil and there are currently insufficient stocks of completed and fully set-up guitars to fulfil those orders, so we all will have to wait our turn until our specific guitars are ready.  There is no sinister plot at work here.  Line 6 has been as up-front as possible about all of this.

Like a broken pencil, it really is pointless getting too emotional about any of this as it it is what it is and it will be what it will be.  Yes it is frustrating having to wait and I doubt anyone would argue with that - from anyone at Line 6 as well as anyone who is waiting, but the hard fact is that we do have to wait. Period.

If you can't or don't want to wait, then that is up to you.

Nick



Re: Another JTV delay...!!
by rico on 2011-04-21 01:46:27

Nick, reading your last words makes me wonder: you are you from Line 6?

If so I understand what you're trying to tell us.

If not then your story makes as much sense as mine since we're both don't know the policy behind the distibution strategy from Line 6.

What speaks for my explanation is the simple fact that where I come from, people first in line are serviced first. The cashier doesn't run down the line to see if there's a customer who has more interesting (profitable) things in his basket.

Let's forget all the philosophies and answer this straight forward question: Why are people who ordered their guitar in January or later get their guitar a lot earlier than the ones who ordered in July, Augustus & September. Now don't come up with type/color issues since there 9 different JTV's. If Line 6 did manage to make 1000 guitars in Korea from October until now, chances are high my type (JTV69TSB) is manufactured over a hundred. I am nr.2 in line on the order list at one of Europe's biggest music store called Music Store!

So, why are people who ordered 5 months later than me, got their JTV at least 2 months earlier than I hopefully get mine?

Rico



Re: Another JTV delay...!!
by MartinHines on 2011-04-21 06:00:33

rico wrote:

So, why are people who ordered 5 months later than me, got their JTV at least 2 months earlier than I hopefully get mine?

Rico

Rico,

Your comment has no factual basis.  You can't simply say "someone got their JTV before me" as proof Line 6 is purposely delaying the shipment of your guitar.

There are a number of variables involved here.

DEALERS VS. CUSTOMERS

Line 6 sells to dealers, not end-customers like you.  You have no clue as to when specific DEALERS placed their orders, nor what specific models and colors those dealers ordered, nor how many guitars each dealer ordered.  You only really know that you ordered a specific guitar on a specific date, and someone else (let's assume in Europe) has received a JTV.  Did this other person who received their JTV order the exact model and same color as you?  Are you positive that the other DEALER placed an order later than your DEALER?  No you do not.

COUNTRY FACTORS

It appears the first shipment of guitars went to the U.S., and the U.S. may be getting a larger percentage of the guitars than other countries.

SPECIFIC MODEL AND COLOR

The reality is there is a certain amount of luck involved in people's orders, primarily based on the model and color. Here is an example for you -- Digiprod and I appear to have ordered guitars about the same time, at the lower initial price.  We both ordered JTV-69s from RMC Audio.  I ordered a black one, and that order was filled in January.  Digiprod unfortunately ordered a blue one and he is still waiting.  Your theory about Line 6 purposely delaying the "lower price orders" doesn't hold in my example.

As another example RMC Audio has not received ANY JTV-59s.  This means the order date for those customers is irrelevant compared to other customer who ordered a different model.

As another example, there appear to be a large number of U.S. based forum members who ordered CSB JTV-59s, and many of them are still waiting.  However, someone on this board who ordered a TSB JTV-59 has already received it, even though they ordered later. Why?  The specific color in question.

Finally, if you were interested in a JTV-89 in the U.S., there are a few dealers who have these in stock, meaining you could order today and get one.



Re: Another JTV delay...!!
by cwallmeier on 2011-04-21 06:44:43

Hi again!

Now I've been following this thread and I've got to say, I'm having kind of fun with it

I understad why everybody is trying to explain to Rico that maybe or actually he is wrong. I understad he's frustration too and I have to say I also think something is not quite right with the whole order/delivery thing but you know what? I don't really care,what the reasons are for not producing/shipping enough guitars, really I don't and I guess Rico doesn't either really, he just wants his guitar. The second he gets i,t everything will be allright (of course only if it works properlly )

I understand his frustration because I too ordered from Music Store and everytime they are supposed to deliver the thing, I log on to the website to see I have to wait 2 more months. I guess I wouldn't have a problem if I have to wait 1 week oder 2 weeks but everytime I get excited after waiting for 2 months, all I get is 2 more months to wait and get excited again. I guess everybody can understand where the frustration comes from.

Some of us rant about it, some of us just wait it out and some of us want to make sense of the whole thing.

As I said I also work directly with customers and have deadlines and my customers are the agencies that companies like L6 hire to do their advertisement and I have to say they are relentless, they don't take s**t from nobody, because their customers are also relentless and so on. What I'm trying to say is, if I would do something like this (I'm also selling a product, one of a kind at that) with my customers I would be out of the job in no time. I mean if I tell them they are goint to get the production in 3 months and they book air time and do all the thing you do in advertisement and after 3 months I say to them "you know what? we have some delays but its for your own good, I'm just trying to produce the best quality possible for you. And I don't really know when you are going to get the stuff you paid me to do. But you just wait, its going to be the bomb" They would sue me for all I got Sorry, that the way it is... But I guess it is some what different...

I all want ist for L6 to give reliable delivery dates to my dealer, no more no less. I don't want to log on to the wesite on the 30.06 jut to see I have to wait until August. Because my frustration would take over and maybe then I would want to rant about the whole thing and spam your email accounts

But seriously, is it too much to ask? reliable information for my DEALER (even ETAs that won't be missed by 5 months would do it), not me. I can live without this guitar (I have a couple of others at home, good ones too, classics actually ) and can wait for it but if I have to wait until december maybe I'd rather buy a PRS, I also wanted to have one of those (not saying in anyway it would be an alternative)

thanks for reading!



Re: Another JTV delay...!!
by rico on 2011-04-21 07:03:51

Dear Mr. MartinHines

I DO know that the store I pre-ordered my JTV placed an order at the Line 6 dealer on Sept. 10 for three JTV's-69 3TB. Initially they were promised to get all three guitars on November 28. Only to hear from Line 6 in December that there was a delay due to a quality issue on the JTV59's that had to be fixed first. The delivery was postponed to the 1st or 2nd week of February.

Please keep an eye on the last line starting with "Finally", if you were...". Given my hypothesis you affirm what I say and Line gets rid of another low price JTV pre-order.



Re: Another JTV delay...!!
by rico on 2011-04-21 07:13:03

Hey cwallmeier, finally someone making sense instead of excuses.

Nice phrase: "booking air time"



Re: Another JTV delay...!!
by rico on 2011-04-21 09:30:55

HOT NEWS HOT NEWS HOT NEWS - This summer in Cologne Germany - for the first time in history the Award Winning: "JTV AIR GUITAR CONTEST" !! - Please send an mp3 (max 30 seconds) representing an evident example of your JTV air guitar skills to www.ricowantshisjtv.com.

By the way: only non JTV owners are allowed to subscribe ...



Re: Another JTV delay...!!
by MartinHines on 2011-04-21 09:46:46

rico wrote:

Dear Mr. MartinHines

I DO know that the store I pre-ordered my JTV placed an order at the Line 6 dealer on Sept. 10 for three JTV's-69 3TB. Initially they were promised to get all three guitars on November 28. Only to hear from Line 6 in December that there was a delay due to a quality issue on the JTV59's that had to be fixed first. The delivery was postponed to the 1st or 2nd week of February.

Please keep an eye on the last line starting with "Finally", if you were...". Given my hypothesis you affirm what I say and Line gets rid of another low price JTV pre-order.

Rico,

I don't understand your comment at all.  All you are saying is you were told one delivery date, then another.  Where is the proof that another DEALER placed an order for your exact guitar (color and model) later than your dealer, and already received it?

I placed my JTV-69 order on September 29th, 19 days AFTER you placed yours, and I received it on January 11th.  Mine was a "low price order".  How do you explain my order was filled and not delayed? According to your hypothesis, Line 6 should have purposely delayed my order.

Here is the answer -- Line 6 is not trying to get rid of pre-orders.  The reason your guitar has not yet shipped is there is a HUGE backlog.

Rich Renken is now saying that the backlog will be filled "Late Summer/Early Fall ISH", meaning even those dates are just an estimate.



Re: Another JTV delay...!!
by Nick_Mattocks on 2011-04-21 14:50:48

Rico

No - I don't work for Line 6.  See here for who and what L6 expert users are:  http://line6.com/community/community/support/pod_support/pod_hd?view=overview

Nick



Re: Another JTV delay...!!
by RichRenken on 2011-04-21 15:45:47

No Rico, there is no grand conspiracy to get early guys to lose their special pricing.You have got to let that one go already.

cwallmeier and Rico, no one here at Line 6 is going to give out what dealer and where and when are getting each and every JTV. That would be impossible.

I looked into a couple specific cases you guys have posted here and it is really stuff that we are not going to get into in a public forum. You guys have to stay in touch with your dealers.



Re: Another JTV delay...!!
by cwallmeier on 2011-04-21 18:04:29

Sorry Rich but I think you misread my post or I didn't make myself clear, I don't want any info from you or L6 directly!! Really I don't! I want info from my dealer but to get that info you or someone in your company must inform my dealer, who at the moment is just guessing delivery dates because he only gets some sort of "buying dates", no official ETAs or confirmed dalivery dates.

I'm greatful about the infos you've given and I think ist nice you're giving us so much infos. As I said before I do NOT give so much info to my clients because they (like us in this case) wouldn't understand half of it and it wouldn't help in any way.

An one more time just to make myself clear, to get reliable infos from my dealer someone at L6 have to inform my dealer. If not, there's no way I can get any infos and what I mean by infos are reliable delivery dates or serious ETAs.

Thanks again and I'm really sorry if you thooght I wanted more info from you Rich, like I said 2 times before I don't really care why you are not shipping to Europe yet, I really don't care about the reasons and don't believe in any conspiracy or something like tthat, it's not like I'm 8

Happy Easter



Re: Another JTV delay...!!
by afkasm on 2011-04-22 08:12:27

Well after 5 months watching this forum , checking at least half a dozen times a day , and 4 months waiting for my guitar ( I know I'm a fledgeling compared to most guys on here)

I'm gonna have to add my twopenneth .

First off , anyone else getting a sense of Deja Vu ? seems that most posts on here are concentrating on the same points and as frustrating as it is I've finally come to the conclusion that no matter how much we ask , beg , threaten or strop No bugger on this forum has the information that we want to know , when are people going to get their guitars . Massive respect to Rich for time and time again placing a large painted target over his gentleman parts and placing himself in the firing line , especially when you remember coming on here to answer questions isnt his job .

Personally I DO NOT believe any of the conspiracy theorys  9/11 , Elvis , Line6/dealers trying to get the pre increase orders to give up so they can earn some extra cash .

If Freddy from Wigan , gets his 69 in black before Timmy from Ipswich gets his 59 in TSB its because the shop Freddy is using put in an order for a black 69 before Timmys shop put one in for a TSB 59  OR !!!! some one who ordered the 69 from Freddy's shop just got bored and cancelled an order . ( I personally think this is why 89s have been turning up on the shelves at a few dealers )

I DO NOT believe that there is some kind of go slow or problem at the korean factory , they not only build the JTV , they produce the "cheaper" lines for some of the big boys in the game and quite frankly if the quality and service is good enough for PRS and Suhr then I'm sure they are building the guitars to a high standard as fast as they are able.

BUT and its a big but , I totally agree that line six dropped a big steamer in the first place taking the orders at such an early stage , of course they did , Rich has said this much and apollogised time and time again ( Its ok Dude , put the target down ) and whoevers job it is at line 6 that deals with the distributors neads to give the dealers some info , The guy above is right when he says that when we contact the dealers ( just done this myself , less than an hour ago) they have less of an idea when the guitars are coming than we do by keeping an eye on here . I myself spoke to Line 6 at the Brum Guitar show back in Feb , and was told that I would have my guitar in 2 - 4 weeks , apollogised profusely for the delay and then let me have a blat on the demonstrators 69 to keep me happy . Now one of either two things happened here , firstly he believed what he said and unfortunately was not correctly informed , or secondly he gave me duff info just to placate me , in which case it has the opposite effect when after 9 weeks no guitar is at my door step .

I honestly think that if individuals could get reliable information from their own dealers about when they should expect the product wether its next week or next year then the endless cycle of people getting upset , Rich coming on here to apologise , everyone happy for a couple of days , someone else gets upset and starts it all again , will be a thing of the past .

Right thats me done , If anyone from Line6 who does happen to come on here and is in possesion of long hair and would like to show appreciation for me sorting this whole thing out then feel free to send a 59 TSB to Andertons , Uk with a post it attached saying please get this to Jon , sharpish ............ No ? ..... ok ........ cant blame a bloke for trying



Re: Another JTV delay...!!
by favance on 2011-04-22 13:49:26

I just wanted to chime for a minute.  I've already got my Black JTV-69 and it's a fantastic guitar!  After owning and playing a Variax 500, 600, and 700, as well as many other Line 6 peices, this guitar is one of the best peices they have ever come out with.

What has been really wonderful is Line 6 included many of us long-time fans of their gear in the thinking process for this guitar.  I think including the existing customer base and taking almost everthing we asked for into consideration, then focusing on quality instrument first is the key here.  Were there a couple of bumps...yeap.  But, as an innovator this is expected.

I wonder how many of the folks that have a problem with the JTV delays have considered that maybe next time Line 6 won't be as up front to their customer base...and simply wait till it's done before soliciting input or only solicit input from a select few...

Think about it...what other Musicial Instrument manufacturer has included their customer base in the design process?

Hopefully, the few unsatisified potential customers haven't blown this type of process...I've really enjoyed the ride and now have a great instrument!



Re: Another JTV delay...!!
by jasonbogen on 2011-04-25 07:48:03

I completely agree and this is my main problem with all the complaints.  Don't get me wrong, people have a right to be frustrated and Line 6 certainly deserves to hear about it, but some persepective is needed and at some point you have to accept what Rich has said and be appreciative for all the communication. This is such a complicated product and they are the innovators of it.  That makes it more difficult to predict what problems you will have and how long it will take to fix them.  I would much rather go through this frustration, but be part of the design process the way Rich and Line 6 allowed us to be than be in the dark until they were ready to ship.  The product simply would not have been as good as it is.  Of course we would not have expected to have our new Variax 8 months ago and been going through this frustration, but I will take the bad with the good in this case.  Next time we may not be involved at all as they decide it isn't worth the headache to keep customers in the loop as long as they did, project a delivery timeframe and build expectations the way they did.  I hope that isn't the case.



Re: Another JTV delay...!!
by afkasm on 2011-04-26 02:17:33

Something tells me Andertons UK has finally got fed up with keep adding a month on to the expected delivery date every month the guitars dont turn up , they are now quoting May 2037!!!!!!!  Damn .......... kinda wish I'd gone with Thomann now        



Re: Another JTV delay...!!
by MartinHines on 2011-04-26 15:50:33

afkasm wrote:

Something tells me Andertons UK has finally got fed up with keep adding a month on to the expected delivery date every month the guitars dont turn up , they are now quoting May 2037!!!!!!!  Damn .......... kinda wish I'd gone with Thomann now       

This JTV-69 Black listing states "Next delivery due 05/05/2011"

http://www.andertons.co.uk/electric-guitars/pid18995/cid556/line-6-jtv69-james-tyler-variax-guitar-in-black.asp

Wheredid you see "2037"?



Re: Another JTV delay...!!
by afkasm on 2011-04-27 01:04:35

Its been changed back to 2011 , the first few models showed the 1 - 2 weeks , (which has been the case since Dec 10  ) the other models which had dates mentioned all said 2037 . I still have tomorrow listed on my order as expected delivery date but i'm not holding my breathe




The information above may not be current, and you should direct questions to the current forum or review the manual.