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Cabs Eq'ed to RedWirez setlist
by meambobbo on 2011-05-27 09:03:21

Ok, here is the first setlist with the 5 high gain amps each with 12 different cab/mic combinations, with each combination EQ'ed so that it very closely matches the frequency response of the RedWirez IR that uses the same cab or at least speakers with an SM57 mic pointed at "CapEdgeOffAxis" at 0.5".

Here's the legend for the patches.  They'll be <amp> <cab><mic> <tone>.  So for instance "Uber BlkX Base" means Uberschall amp, Blackbacks 4x12 w/ SM57 off axis, with default amp settings.

Marshall J-800         J800

Bogner Uberschall      Uber

Mesa Dual Rectifier    Rect

ENGL Fireball          ENGL

Line 6 Elektrik        elek

Greenbacks 25 4x12     Grn

Brit T75 4x12          T75

Blackbacks 30 4x12     Blk

Uber T75/V30 4x12      Ubr

Treadplate V30 4x12    V30

XXL V30 4x12           XXL

SM57 On Axis           +

SM57 On Axis           X

Default                Base

Lead                   Lead

Metal                  Metal

Rock                   Rock

Each of the patches has the following effects in the chain:

Studio EQ - This is to brighten the tone before the amp gain stage(s) to reduce muddiness

Tube Screamer - Same as above, only use the EQ or the Screamer, not both

amp/cab/mic/mixer

Ducking Reverb - to add some space

Digital Delay - kind of quick single echo delay - 500ms

Various EQ's - These are the EQ's used to match the RedWirez cabs.

And the footswitch assignments:

FS1 - Tube Screamer (change to the Studio EQ if you prefer to use the EQ as your "overdrive")

FS2 - Reverb

FS3 - Delay

FS4 - All the EQ's, toggle this to hear how the EQ's change the tone

I'm including a few samples of the cabs using the ENGL amp patches.  You're hearing Pod HD On Axis, Pod HD Off Axis, then RedWirez IR.

THE SOUND IS NOT IDENTICAL. I used Voxengo Span to match the EQ's visually.  I didn't get 100% accuracy.  Some of them are closer than others.  Ironically, I find the Pod HD cabs to sound better than the RedWirez cabs.  The RedWirez sound more noisy.

EDIT - SETLIST HAS BEEN LEVELED TO REMOVE VOLUME DIFFERENCES.



Re: Cabs Eq'ed to RedWirez setlist
by meambobbo on 2011-05-27 09:04:41

I should mention I intend to send out two more versions of this setlist - one with the "Pre" amp models, and one with the full amps dialed in.



Re: Cabs Eq'ed to RedWirez setlist
by meambobbo on 2011-05-27 09:05:47

Also, the setlist hasn't had its patches leveled yet, but I'm not going to have time to do that until later next week.  Sorry - be forewarned.



Re: Cabs Eq'ed to RedWirez setlist
by ClarkKentJob on 2011-05-28 00:59:56

I've tried many match EQ programs and Ozone has the best one. You should try that one!



Re: Cabs Eq'ed to RedWirez setlist
by mtreehugger on 2011-05-28 07:50:10

"I'm including a few samples of the cabs using the ENGL amp patches.  You're hearing Pod HD On Axis, Pod HD Off Axis, then RedWirez IR. 

THE SOUND IS NOT IDENTICAL. I used Voxengo Span to match the EQ's visually.  I didn't get 100% accuracy.  Some of them are closer than others.  Ironically, I find the Pod HD cabs to sound better than the RedWirez cabs.  The RedWirez sound more noisy."

Thanks, meambobbo!  I liked the pod on-axis best in the 1st 2 clips, the pod off-axis better in the 3rd clip, and the 2 pods finished in a dead heat in your 4th clip.  I agree that the redwirez did not sound as good as the hd cabs--only in the 4th clip was it even close imo.  the redwirez sounded muffled, in general, but that's due to your not getting 100% accuracy, correct?



Re: Cabs Eq'ed to RedWirez setlist
by meambobbo on 2011-05-28 08:40:47

Hey Clark, I didn't use a match EQ program because I wanted to match the EQ using the Pod HD's EQ effects, so you can get a similar tone to the RedWirez without any need for external hardware.  Of course a match EQ program would probably do a better job than I did, and if people can use external hardware/software for the way they use their Pod, they should probably use that instead of this setlist.

So rather than this project being a demo of how close they can sound (like you did), this a functional setlist that people can use to find their favorite amp/cab/mic combos, then tweak those and save and move them to a real setlist.



Re: Cabs Eq'ed to RedWirez setlist
by meambobbo on 2011-05-28 08:55:41

Mr. Hippy, it seems like on every clip one of the Pod clips sounds in the ball park and the other one sounds too bright or too dark.  The very high end is difficult to dial in on the Pod.  The "Highs" parameter on the Parametric EQ kicks in at 1.5khz.  The highest frequency you can adjust the Parametric EQ is around 4.5 khz.  You really have to use the Studio EQ, whose high shelf can be set at 5 or 8 khz, but this thing doesn't exactly function like you'd expect.

Also, Voxengo Span might not be the best frequency analyzer, at least not for high end.  In my visual comparison, it seemed like the Pod was always missing some frequencies between 6-9khz, while the RedWirez usually had a fading response there.  But then you listen to these, it seems some of the Pod clips are indeed brighter than the RedWirez.  I plan to readjust just a bit, audially, just to try to get the top end sounding the same.

Also, while the RedWirez usually had a bass response that sloped straight up from 80 HZ to 220 HZ, the Pod usually flattened out from 100 - 180 HZ, and it was very difficult to get that slope.  In several cases I said close enough and quit.

As for the quality...I don't know.  We know for sure that the RedWirez IR's were created from recordings of actual cabs - this process MUST involve microphone noise.  I'm not sure exactly how Line 6 made their cabs, but perhaps they did it differently, so that no noise was introduced into their cab models.

The other theory is that my visual matching simply wasn't accurate, and the RedWirez sound noisier because they have more mids/less high end.  But then again, you'd figure highs can be quite noisy as well as mids.

I will post a further tweaked setlist soon, just trying to get these tones more in the same ballpark.



Re: Cabs Eq'ed to RedWirez setlist
by meambobbo on 2011-05-28 17:28:32

Wow...I just tried out the setlist, and the levels are horrible.  I fixed them up.  I also made some minor EQ adjustments.



Re: Cabs Eq'ed to RedWirez setlist
by frozenbrains on 2011-08-03 11:27:23

Meambobbo... sorry to resurrect an old thread, but THANK YOU SO MUCH for posting this setlist! I was having a hard time getting anything decent out of the J-800.

I agree with what you said in another thread. It is COMPLETELY UNACCEPTABLE to need 4 or 5 EQ blocks to fix Line 6's $hitty HD cab sims.

Fortunately I can get what I need with 2 or 3, but still, that's pretty lame. I hope they are seriously doing something about the cab sims. They suck.



Re: Cabs Eq'ed to RedWirez setlist
by meambobbo on 2011-08-03 14:02:21

i'm glad it helped you out!  i don't even use many of those amps and cabs, but i wanted to be thorough to help others out.

i also wanted to show how good the existing cab sims could sound if just re-eq'ed.  i was hoping this thread would be a bit more popular and Line 6 would take note; but I don't think it has had as much interest as I'd hoped.

i also wish line 6 would give us the tools to do this stuff ourselves, so it wasn't such an all or nothing endevour.  i think line 6 is really missing out on using such an approach.  180 amps/cabs is a bit overwhelming, but letting users pick their favorite 20 amps/cabs, as well as being able to make and upload custom variants would make the unit so much more versatile and appealing.



Re: Cabs Eq'ed to RedWirez setlist
by francisb on 2011-08-07 19:06:49

I missed your post originally... thanks for the patches, however it just emphasis how ridiculous the EQ offering vs the maximum FX slot amount is. But it shows that it could be a solution if they were to implement an graphical EQ directly on the cab.

Thread popularity over here seems to usually follows the expert and they seems to like the cabinet as they are... in fact the pod hd cabs are a mystery to me at this point. I'm like you I always seems to fight with them to set them up and to me it is clear to be the weakest part of the HD, but you read other users and they do not see any problem with them even if the HD doesn't sound like anything else on the market....



Re: Cabs Eq'ed to RedWirez setlist
by OliverCaspers on 2011-08-20 01:50:52

I agree. The cabs sond too muffled to me. Most times I try to compensate this with a mid shift eq. But L6 should definetely rework the cabs. From my point of view the cabs are the weakest part in the Pod HD.

The amps are absolutley great in their dynamics. I love how you can change the tone with different attacks and changing the volume of the guitar. I wish they could get the cabs to the same level.



Re: Cabs Eq'ed to RedWirez setlist
by Floortom on 2011-08-21 06:41:45

Great post...I'm going to play around with these today



Re: Cabs Eq'ed to RedWirez setlist
by mtreehugger on 2011-08-21 16:18:23

I totally agree as well.  The cabs are the weak spot.  In fact, I'm skeptical there's any cab modeling involved.  They sound like simple EQ curves.  So if you aren't using the cab in exactly the same way as it was when it was sampled, it doesn't respond correctly, and now we're throwing more EQ on them as compensation.  If Line 6 could make some kind of enhancement here to either make them respond in a more life-like way or allow users to tweak things (like when they added controls for bias, sag hum, etc. to the amps), they would completely dominate the market.

Anybody who agrees with this should find the product feedback link and make a feature request to have better cabs.  The more customers who say this, the more likely it is to come to pass.



Re: Cabs Eq'ed to RedWirez setlist
by pascual_dd on 2011-09-03 18:45:01

Thanks meambobbo, your eq'ed cabs have saved me from my initial despair!

Indeed the factory cabs are weak and darksounding ! ( I used to run my XT into the RedWirez GB25 and it sounded better!!!)

I would love to see a matching cab for the Park+GB I guess I'll have to learn the technique .

Thanks again for your help



Re: Cabs Eq'ed to RedWirez setlist
by meambobbo on 2011-09-04 00:22:40

glad i could help.

the cabs are not dialed in per amp + speaker + mic combination, only speaker + mic.  Each cabinet really only has 2 variants, one for each mic - the SM 57 on axis or off axis.  I only made the setlist with all the different amps to give people an easy starting point (because when you switch the amp, the Pod automatically changes the cab and mic to a different default).  So if you want to use the Park amp, just take one of my patches that uses the Greenback cabinet, and change the amp model.  Then you'll have to change the cabinet and mic to match. Just make sure you set both the cabinet and mic to whatever they originally were for that patch.

The way I did this was I recorded some pink noise through the blackface amp model with "no cab" selected.  Then I'd record with the exact same settings but one with one of the cabs turned on.  For the "no cab" recording, I ran that through each RedWirez IR that is most similar to the cab I recorded.  Then I compared the EQ curves visually using a frequency spectrum analyzer.  Then I added EQ's in the Pod that I thought would help match the Pod's frequency repsonse to the RedWirez.  Then I'd re-record through the Pod with cabinet and EQ's on and re-compare to the baseline "no cab" + RedWirez IR, over and over, until they looked the same.  Then I'd finalize by doing an audio test using guitar, just to make sure the visualization actually was working properly and put me in the same ballpark.  So to reiterate, I didn't compensate for each amp + cabinet + mic. I only compensated for each cabinet + mic.

In my setlist, you'll notice that for each cabinet + mic combination, the EQ settings are identical, even if the patches use different amp models.  I only created the setlist with all the different amps so that people didn't have to reset the cabinet and mic when they changed the amp model.




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