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JTV-59 Noisy guitar output when connected digitally to HD500
by bobthedog67 on 2011-08-21 21:53:04

Hi Guys,

I have a setup here like this:

Digital lead to HD500

Normal guitar lead to Eleven Rack

When setup like this I have pretty bad noise on the normal guitar output to the eleven rack and a nasty sine wave type sound at 3000hz.

If I disconect the digital lead from the HD500 then the noise disapears.

I have included an image showing the frequency analysis from the normal guitar output.

The top images are with the HD disconnected and the bottom images are with it connected.

The left images are the normal pups and the right images with variax mode on.

As you can see there is quite a difference, the main nasty sound is at 3000hz, sounds like a sine wave to me. A narrow band eq cut at 3000hz removes it.

Is this normal?

Thanks for any help

Andy




Re: JTV-59 Noisy guitar output when connected digitally to HD500
by ozbadman on 2011-08-22 13:22:31

Original Thread:

http://line6.com/support/thread/69826?tstart=0



Re: JTV-59 Noisy guitar output when connected digitally to HD500
by francisb on 2011-08-22 13:35:35

I guess will post it here too:

Hi Andy,

This is a problem with all Variax, I have a 600, Acoustic 700 and a Bass 705 and they all do this. I was curious if the new one had that problem too, but I guess you just provide the answer. It seems to me that using both connection at once creates some kind of ground loop.

On my end I was trying to use the VDI to just provide power while using the 1/4 inch for the guitar sound, but as you pointed out it is useless. So I drop the VDI usage all together and I'm using the 1/4 inch with the power supply and then split the output signal to multiple device if need be.

If you get an official answer from Line6 please post it back I would be curious to know the reason why. When I realise all variax where doing it I conclude it was a design flaw and never bother reporting it.




Re: JTV-59 Noisy guitar output when connected digitally to HD500
by SWoRd on 2011-08-22 14:11:03

Hi Andy,

Does it make any difference if you activate the small "XLR Lift" switch on the HD500 right next to the expression pedal?.

Best regards

Soren



Re: JTV-59 Noisy guitar output when connected digitally to HD500
by RichRenken on 2011-08-23 01:00:00

I saw your other post as well. It looks like you have a ground loop going. I am going to check into this. It is not a design flaw, if I hook gear up and get a ground loop, that is science. How to work around it or get some kind of ground lift going is the answer. So yes, did flipping the ground on the HD500 help?



RE: JTV-59 Noisy guitar output when connected digitally to HD500
by Line6Hugo on 2011-08-23 15:09:36

+1 to Rich

What you are describing with your setup is a groud loop hum. I'm sure if you plug into just the POD or just the Digi Eleven rack, this problem is not present. The Ground Lift switch on the POD HD500 is for the XLR outputs only, so it may not help.

What you may need is a ground loop eliminator device if you must connect your JTV in the described manner.

Regards,

Line6Hugo



Re: RE: JTV-59 Noisy guitar output when connected digitally to HD500
by bobthedog67 on 2011-09-07 21:52:04

Hi Guys,

Sorry I was not getting email notifications and missed all these replies.

Someone else in another thread has had a JTV59 that acts this way and another that doesn't so to me it sounds like a problem in the guitar?

I don't see how I can have a ground loop as everything is grounded from a single ground?

Thanks for any help

Andy



Re: RE: JTV-59 Noisy guitar output when connected digitally to HD500
by edstar1960 on 2011-09-08 01:56:26

Hi Andy,

Do you get the problem when you just connect the JTV59 via the VDI lead to the HD500?

If you do, then it is a problem with the guitar as I described in the other threads.

If the issue only occurs when, while the JTV59 is connected to the the HD400 using VDI that you also connect it via the 1/4 inch jack to your Eleven rack at the same time, then it is likely to be a ground loop as Rich and Hugo state above, and as FrancisB mentions in his experience.

Hope that helps.

Best Regards

Eddie

PS: The noise I experienced when connecting my JTV59 via VDI to my HD500 was not just a background hum, but a high pitched sound, more like radio interference that also had the odd pop and crackle thrown in for good measure, and it also pulsed, fading in and out. Very different to just background hum and very obviously not normal, but obviously faulty.



Re: RE: JTV-59 Noisy guitar output when connected digitally to HD500
by bobthedog67 on 2011-09-08 03:48:24

I Get the problem with the normal mag output into the eleven rack.

I am not sure it can be a ground loop though.

The eleven rack is connected up via optical ADAT so no earth there, the eleven rack and hd500 are both being powered from the same socket.

Also it doesn't sound like a ground loop and the frequency displays I showed above would not indicate a ground loop.

The high pitched digital noise is exactly what I get.



Re: RE: JTV-59 Noisy guitar output when connected digitally to HD500
by bobthedog67 on 2011-09-08 04:12:57

Ok Just did another test.

JTV-59 -> pod HD by guitar lead, preset with amp using guitar input.

With digital lead disconected no noise at all.

With digital lead connected loads of noise and a high pitch whine.

I cannot see how this can be a ground loop issue!

Surely it must be a fault?

Thanks

Andy



Re: RE: JTV-59 Noisy guitar output when connected digitally to HD500
by edstar1960 on 2011-09-08 04:14:22

Hi Andy,

Just to be clear - if you connect the JTV59 via VDI to your HD500 and only use the mag PU's, and don't have the 1/4 inch jack connected to anything - then you don't hear any weird noise? 

You only hear the bad noise when powering the JTV59 via the VDI from the HD500 amd taking the 1/4 inch jack output to your Eleven rack?   Is that correct understanding?

If you use the JTV59 as a standard guitar, ie: don't have the battery in it and don't have the VDI connected to the HD500, just use a 1/4 inch jack to get the output from the mag pu's.  Do you still get the weird noise when playing it through your Eleven Rack?

The weird noise I had on my JTV59 was evident when using the VDI to power the guitar - and there was no noise when I just used the JTV59 as a standard guitar with a standard 1/4 inch cable, ie: no power and no modelling capability.

Using a Variax powered by the VDI cable and at the same time taking the 1/4 inch cable output and inputting it into another mixer/amp/unit is likely to get an earth hum or ground loop - but if that is not the sound you are hearing, but instead you are getting a crackling interference sound that is also possibly pulsing, then that sounds like you have got a problem with the JTV59 that is only highlighted when using the VDI cable at the same time as a 1/4 inch cable.  If it is essential that you use the JTV59 with the Eleven Rack whilst it is powered by the VDI and controlled from the HD500, then I would suggest you contact your dealer to discuss the problem and possibly send your JTV59 back to Line6 for checking out and possible repair.

Wishing you the best of luck.  Hope you get it sorted!

Best Regards


Eddie



Re: RE: JTV-59 Noisy guitar output when connected digitally to HD500
by bobthedog67 on 2011-09-08 04:25:40

Basically I hear the bad noise on the 1/4 output whenever I have the VDI connected. I get this noise even when the 1/4 is connected to the HD500, no other equipment involved.

With the VDI disconected no noise at all on the 1/4 output, absolutely perfect.

The noise is not a ground hum noise, it is high pitched white noise with a sine wave at 3k. It sounds like bad electronics to me.



Re: RE: JTV-59 Noisy guitar output when connected digitally to HD500
by edstar1960 on 2011-09-08 04:34:23

Hi Andy,

As I said - mine made the noise when connected only with the VDI - no guitar jack lead.  Does yours make the noise with only the VDI connected ?  If so then it's definitely a fault.

If it only makes the noise when the VDI is connected and the jack is connected then the expected noise would only be an earth hum (ground loop) in the worst instance - if its interference type noise then again I think it's a fault.

I suggest contacting your dealer first, and then possibly Line6 to discuss.  It will probably need to go in to be looked at by Line6 at the very least - but at least they will be able to tell you if it's faulty or not - and if it is faulty then I am sure they will fix it for you.

Please let us know how you get on.

Best of luck.

Eddie



Re: RE: JTV-59 Noisy guitar output when connected digitally to HD500
by bobthedog67 on 2011-09-08 05:30:19

Hi Eddie,

Thanks for all your help on this.

Mine is different

The following is just using just the HD500.

Normal pickups through VDI = lots of hiss, not useable.

Variax pickups through VDI  = a little hiss. useable

Normal Pickups through 1/4 with VDI connected = lots of hiss, digital noise, low pitch throbbing, high pitch whine at 3K. Not useable

Normal Pickups through 1/4 with NO VDI = silent if guitar grounded to body otherwise pretty bad ground hum.

Variax Pickups through 1/4 with battery = silent always, very good quality!

I only use good quality cables and have tested it with a few.

I think it is going to have to go back really, a couple of the tuners are already giving up the ghost as well!

Cheers


Andy



Re: RE: JTV-59 Noisy guitar output when connected digitally to HD500
by edstar1960 on 2011-09-08 06:34:01

Hi Andy,

I agree - it sounds like the guitar is faulty and needs to go back to be replaced/repaired as you require.

Using the VDI cable to power the guitar should be no different to using the battery to power it - and as you can hear when battery powered the guitar is a great instrument and works as expected with no noise - so that is what the experience should be when using the VDI cable.

Good luck - hope it gets resolved quickly for you.

All the best

Eddie



Re: RE: JTV-59 Noisy guitar output when connected digitally to HD500
by bobthedog67 on 2011-09-08 06:36:08

Hi Eddie,

Thanks for all the help, I will send the dealer an email and see what happens.

Cheers

Andy



Re: RE: JTV-59 Noisy guitar output when connected digitally to HD500
by bobthedog67 on 2011-09-12 05:30:42

Hi Eddie,

Actually it is just like your one was I think.

Just using the VDI I get the noise also on Variax Ch2 or Variax. Variax Ch1 is fine.

So the noise is just always there on the mag output even using just the VDI.

Are these standard CAT5 cables, I am just wondering before sending it back to try a different cable?

Thanks

Andy



Re: RE: JTV-59 Noisy guitar output when connected digitally to HD500
by edstar1960 on 2011-09-12 05:59:26

Hi Andy,

Yes under the covers I believe they are just standard CAT5 cables.

Have you been using a new VDI cable bought separately for your JTV?  Or are you using the cable that came with the guitar that is designed to be connected to the USB interface?

If you are using a new VDI cable then you can always try the one that came with the guitar to connect to the USB interface - and I expect you will hear exactly the same noise.

My first JTV did not have any noise issue using the same VDI cable.  That's why I was aware of this noise issue from the outset. I tried the cable that came with the guitar too just to be sure - and it was definitely still there.

By all means try another cable just to rule out that possibility but I suspect that you will still hear the fault and that it has the same issue as my replacement one did.

Hopefully mine will be back with me mid-week so I can report back on the repair!

Best Regards


Eddie



Re: RE: JTV-59 Noisy guitar output when connected digitally to HD500
by bobthedog67 on 2011-09-12 06:54:56

Hi Eddie,

I am using the VDI cable that came with the guitar.

I have tried a CAT5 cable, slightly different noise but still basically the same.

Also normal mag output on battery is producing so much noise it is unuseable unless the guitar is grounded to my body

Looks like it has to go back.

Thanks for all the help

I will let yuou know how it goes.

Cheers

Andy



Re: RE: JTV-59 Noisy guitar output when connected digitally to HD500
by edstar1960 on 2011-09-12 07:39:21

Hi Andy,

Sorry to hear that the mags are also unusable when battery being used.

Strictly speaking the cable that comes with the guitar is not a VDI cable - it is intended to connect the guitar to the USB interface but not to connect the guitar to a POD - although it can actually be used to do that. So that is described as the guitar USB interface cable.

The official VDI cable is designed for live performance use, and is actually a CAT5 cable that is in super flexible covering, and it's a fair bit longer, and it has the round locking caps at both ends for security and to ensure you cannot inadvertenly damage a socket by treading on the lead and yanking it out of a socket. Essentially it is much more like a normal guitar lead and is super secure.  They are not cheap but well worth the investment if you will be using the JTV connected to your HD500 in live performance situations.

I am sure you will get all your problems resolved - and I hope you don't have to wait too long. Let me know how it goes.

Best Regards


Eddie



Re: RE: JTV-59 Noisy guitar output when connected digitally to HD500
by Line6david on 2011-09-19 14:11:03

Hi,

After all of this troubleshooting it does sound as if the guitar has some sore of wiring issue. I would recommend taking it to an authorized service center and getting it checked out:

http://line6.com/service_centers/

Thanks,

David

Line 6 Customer Support



Re: RE: JTV-59 Noisy guitar output when connected digitally to HD500
by bobthedog67 on 2011-09-19 14:15:14

Hi David,

It is already on its way to Line 6 via my dealer.

Fingers crossed they can sort it out for me.

Cheers

Andy



Re: RE: JTV-59 Noisy guitar output when connected digitally to HD500
by edstar1960 on 2011-09-20 03:21:04

Hi Andy,

After two weeks and some great customer service from Line6, I finally got my repaired JTV back yesterday afternoon (Mon 19 Sep), unfortunately, not good news. You can read the details in my latest entry in my thread here: http://uk.line6.com/support/message/314353#314353

Cheers


Eddie




Re: RE: JTV-59 Noisy guitar output when connected digitally to HD500
by edstar1960 on 2011-09-20 12:44:07

Actually, mine may not be as bad as first thought, it seems the problems are only really bad when connected to the POD HD500 stand alone, and monitoring on headphones.  When I connected it with the USB cable to my PC to try to record the noises, the earth hum disappeared, and the radio interfernce noises were only just audible. I now need to try it direct with an amp, and via the HD500 into an amp and mixer, to see if the noises are there in a live scenario.




Re: RE: JTV-59 Noisy guitar output when connected digitally to HD500
by edstar1960 on 2011-09-21 02:47:25

Earth hum still there when connecting JTV direct to amp with just a 1/4 inch jack - but if I use VDI to connect to HD500 and then go to amp then that seems to eliminate the earth hum.  The radio interference noises still seem to be there though regardless of connection method.  See http://uk.line6.com/support/message/314667#314667 for full test details.




Re: RE: JTV-59 Noisy guitar output when connected digitally to HD500
by bobthedog67 on 2011-10-07 06:22:01

The dealers have my mended guitar back, should be ariveing here on Tuesday.

I will let you know how it sounds now!



Re: RE: JTV-59 Noisy guitar output when connected digitally to HD500
by bobthedog67 on 2011-10-11 09:55:32

Well It has been returned, they have not fixed the problem.

They say this is how all JTV59s are.

They had the guitar nearly a month and they is 1/2 an hour labour to check it.

Not at all impressed, i think it is going back as not fit for purpose.

The last Line 6 product I buy!



Re: RE: JTV-59 Noisy guitar output when connected digitally to HD500
by edstar1960 on 2011-10-12 10:19:33

Hi Andy,

I am really sorry to hear that.

I am waiting on a replacement (which will be my third JTV59) - but mine does have other issues (ie: radio noises on some of the models) and it was damaged whilst being repaired.

I have also been told that the hiss from the mags is normal but I only get a significant issue when using the VDI - the hiss does seem to be amplified particularly when using the HD500 - but this can be addressed by using a noise gate and at home rehearsal levels is not a major problem. If the hiss you are getting from the mags is as bad as you described then I don't see how that can be described as normal behaviour, and besides, if every JTV did behave that badly then surely everyone would be posting about it on here - but there have only been a few of us that have complained.

I didn't notice this issue with my first JTV59 but I mainly used that with my X3L - however I then got the HD500 and then the replacement JTV59 and spotted this issue immediately - and I can verify that it is not as noticable when using the X3L.  So this leads me to believe that, my second JTV is faulty or at least makes more hiss than the first one, and that the HD500 does exacerbate the condition and makes it more noticable.

Do you live near your dealers? Can you go in to their shop and try the guitar out and compare it with another one?

Earthing issues can vary greatly depending on your environment - so trying it in different places with different electrical supplies is useful in problem determination.

Do you have any other guitars that exhibit bad earthing type noises when used at home with your HD500?  Or is it just the JTV59?  If you can demonstrate that it is faulty then surely they can repair it or replace it?

It will be a shame for your JTV journey to end now - but you have to do whatever is best for you.

I am really sorry to hear your news and can fully sympathise with you.

Best of luck with whatever path you take!


Best Regards

Eddie



Re: RE: JTV-59 Noisy guitar output when connected digitally to HD500
by bobthedog67 on 2011-10-12 11:01:19

Hi Eddie,

Thanks for the reply.

I have calmed down a bit now, when I made that post I was pretty p****d off!

The dealer is not happy either and is contacting Line 6 about it, I think we will try a new digital lead and see how that goes.

I have loads of other guitars and do not get this problem with them and the HD500. I did have similar problems with a Gibson Dusk Tiger and after two replacements got one that was silent, I was hoping to have the same with the JTV.

Also as long as I only use the digital lead or the mag lead I get no problems with the JTV, maybe I just have to live with it like this.

The other thing I am thinking is maybe it is a problem with the HD500, who knows!

I will try a new cable and see how that goes.

Once again thanks for your interest in this.

Andy



Re: RE: JTV-59 Noisy guitar output when connected digitally to HD500
by edstar1960 on 2011-10-13 03:09:07

Hi Andy,

I am glad to hear that things are not so bad  - if you get problem free operation with just the VDI or just the 1/4" inch jack lead then it sounds like your JTV is actually fine after all.  

Remember that if you use the VDI that the MODEL signal is sent on Variax CH1 and the Mags on Variax CH2 - so if you want to use the mags via a different unit (ie: your ELEVEN rack) at the same time as the Model sounds then you can should be able to use the HD500 routing options to achieve that without having to use the 1/4" at the same time as the VDI.

I had not recreated your exact scenario with my JTV59 and HD500 so I tried it this morning.

JTV59 connected with VDI to HD500, also connected via 1/4" jack to Guitar Input of HD500.

HD500 input source set to GUITAR.  HD500 also connected via 1/4" jack live out to input of my combo amp which was plugged in but switched off. Monitored sound on headphones on the HD500.

Result was that there was hiss and a high pitched radio noise whine and a low pitched pulse that was in time with the TAP light when using mags when modelling switched on the hiss disappeared but the whine and pulse remained.

Repeated the test with my X3L instead of the HD500. This time using the mags there was hiss, a high pitched whine and a loud low pitched constant buzz (like a ground loop sound), when using the modelling the hiss disappeared but the other sounds remained.

In both tests, with just VDI connected, the only sound was the expected hiss from the mags, but as soon as the 1/4" jack was connected from JTV to Guitar input on the pod then the other sounds appeared.

So I definitely have the same issue as you when connecting both VDI and 14" jack - and I think everyone else will have too based on what has been reported on the forums. Unfortunately this does seem to be working as expected - it would be brilliant if they could fix it though!

My JTV59 does have some other issues though (radio noise on some of the model sounds) and these issues are apparently worse when I use the HD500, so I thought  I would check the earthing situation with the HD500. This is what I discovered.....

If is use my HD500 stand alone, not connected to any other piece of equipment, just listening to it on headphones, and I then connect the JTV59 to it with the VDI cable, I get a bad earth situation when using the mags which means I have to touch the strings or the bridge to reduce the noise level. I get the same problem just using it on battery power connected to the HD500 only by the 1/4" jack cable. I can also touch the HD500 casing and it reduces the earth noise.  However, if I then connect the HD500 via the 1/4" live out jack cable to the input of my combo amp, which is plugged in BUT switched off, then the earthing problem goes away - I am not sure it disappears completely BUT  it becomes insignificant so I don't notice it.

If I use my X3L stand alone, then I don't notice any earthing problems with the JTV59 connected via VDI or 1/4" jack - again I am not sureit has completely disappeared but it is so insignificant that I don't notice it at home playing levels. It makes no difference whether the X3L is connected to my amp.

So from this I gather that my X3L does earth itself through it's power supply BUT the HD500 does not. I think this is normal behavior for the HD500, although I am not sure why that is now part of its design. I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong with that assumption. If not, then I guess my HD500 has a fault.

I am not sure whether you stated that you get an earthing problem if you use the HD500 stand alone when using the JTV59 and the VDI and also when using the 1/4" or whether your HD500 works fine in that instance and only plays up when the JTV59 is connected using both the VDI and 1/4" jack.  I would be interested in hearing your findings and in the results from trying a new VDI lead.

Best Regards


Eddie



Re: RE: JTV-59 Noisy guitar output when connected digitally to HD500
by edstar1960 on 2011-10-20 07:55:31

OK - I am confused.  Line6 official response is it's working as designed and I can recreate the noise and ground loop with my 59 and HD500 which seems to confirm bottom line is that you can't use the VDI and 1/4" cable at the same time - SO can somebody please explain how this official Line6 demo video of the JTV69 by Paul Hindmarsh on YOU TUBE : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meqkcELwew0&feature=related      : clearly shows he has both the VDI and 1/4" connections in use at the same time from his JTV69 yet he does not have a ground loop issue or the 3K whine or any of the other reported issues. So, how is he getting around the design issue and getting a clean trouble free signal when both the VDI and 1/4" cables are connected?

Perhaps Line6 could document his exact setup so those of us who want to use both at once will know how to do so without hitting the problem.  Or if there is nothing special about Paul's setup in that video, then I guess that means it is possible to use both VDI and 1/4" cable at once, in which case Andy's JTV59 (and mine) are faulty and not working as designed.

Thanks in advance for the explanation.




Re: RE: JTV-59 Noisy guitar output when connected digitally to HD500
by bobthedog67 on 2011-10-20 11:44:26

Hi Ed,

Sorry for not answering I have been busy and havnt had much time for the guitar.

I have the new lead and after a very quick test it seems to makes no difference.

I am going to do some full tests over the weekend with audio files and spectral analysis and send these to the dealer and Line6.

I will post the results here as well.

Cheers

Andy



Re: RE: JTV-59 Noisy guitar output when connected digitally to HD500
by edstar1960 on 2011-10-21 01:32:00

Hi Andy,

So the new lead has proven no better - I am not surprised - but it would have been nice if that had fixed the problem.

I have started this new thread http://line6.com/support/message/321711#321711 to discuss the issue of connecting both VDI and 1/4" jack at the same time, as there is an official Line6 demo video showing the JTV69 connected with both but not suffering any problems (as linked to in my earlier update and in the new thread), it would be nice to know exactly how to achieve this, especially as several people have reported they want to do it but have been stopped from doing so because of the same problems you are experiencing. I have reproduced the issue on mine too so I would also like to know how to get around it.

Cheers

Eddie




Re: RE: JTV-59 Noisy guitar output when connected digitally to HD500
by edstar1960 on 2011-10-21 01:42:56

PS: as suggested in the other thread, whilst the VDI is connected, have you tried running the 1/4" jack into a DI box with ground lift on, and then taken that on to the Eleven rack?  And if so - did that fix the issue for you?

Or have you tried using a hum destroyer or equivalent in the 1/4" jack signal chain?   Thanks.



Re: RE: JTV-59 Noisy guitar output when connected digitally to HD500
by edstar1960 on 2011-10-24 05:02:09

Hi Andy - please see my latest update in http://uk.line6.com/support/message/322053#322053

I could not recreate the problem and everything seemed to work OK except for one scenario where I got a pulsing hum in time with the TAP tempo of the HD500 but oddly this contined when I used a ground lift input of a DI box but went away when I used the DI box normal input - yet it was there if the guitar went direct to the mixer. I am still confused by this but it does seem that both outputs can be used simultaneously without major issues at least in some scenarios.

I would be interested to hear how you have got on and what you have discovered.

Thanks!

Best Regards

Eddie




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