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Vote for some more transparency and input on future development
by hansvaneven on 2011-09-16 05:30:16

Hi guys,

I know it may not be possible due to company politics, but I'd like to have a little more input on a few things. After a year of "hoping" the HD familly finally become close to perfect, I must admit that I'm a little dissapointed with the HD500 evolution, sure it's a very capable unit, love the amp models, but there are way too many things missing to make it stand out there with bigger players. As mentioned before, high on my list are:

- better EQ's (or lets say, real EQ's!)

- improved FX (especially the Chorus and Pitch FX come to mind)

- re-amping via USB like on older L6 pedals (not sure why they removed this feature)

- being able to send simulated amp signal to PA and a non simulated signal of the preamp to a guitar power amp/cab

- more amp models (JC120 definitely missing here)

It would be great if L6 could post a little more here with input on what we could expect for the HD familly, just a few hints would be great, other companies do this to, so I don't think it would harm the company, but it would give us loyal users (have been a user since the first POD bean came out) a better perspective and some hope to finally see this unit finishedas should be.

thanks,

Hans



Re: Vote for some more transparency and input on future development
by killergege on 2011-09-16 05:45:18

I completely agree, about some of the feature missing and the feedback...

Without publishing the whole Line 6 strategy, it would be nice to have some feedback, Line 6 has a blog, use it more ! Stop publishing "news" several months after it happens.

Maybe some hints on what Line 6 is working on, what to expect, etc.

I know this is not the current "philosophy", but it would be great !



Re: Vote for some more transparency and input on future development
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2011-09-16 06:00:38

hansvaneven wrote:

It would be great if L6 could post a little more here with input on what we could expect for the HD familly, just a few hints would be great, other companies do this

Even Fractal doesn't go into what their next directions are.  Line6 isn't going to do it either and they have far more direct competition.  You're asking for more insight than even the beta testers with signed NDA's get.

I think if you want to figure out what their future direction is, go look at what they've done on past product lines.  That's probably a good indicator of where they might go next.



Re: Vote for some more transparency and input on future development
by hansvaneven on 2011-09-16 06:48:40

Even Fractal doesn't go into what their next directions are.  Line6 isn't going to do it either and they have far more direct competition.  You're asking for more insight than even the beta testers with signed NDA's get.

I think if you want to figure out what their future direction is, go look at what they've done on past product lines.  That's probably a good indicator of where they might go next.

Hi Karl, I've been beta tester for quite some companies in the past and can tel you that we had at least a few hints from time to time, while I understand NDA is important, but with a product like the HD line, that IMHO is unfinished after a year, I don't hink it's too much asked for some better EQ's and the above, and I don't know why this would put L6 in danger communicating about it. I'm not reading Fractal forums, but I think I read somewhere here that they are a little more transparent then L6.

Cheers,

Hans



Re: Vote for some more transparency and input on future development
by phil_m on 2011-09-16 06:54:32

Fractal is also probably not even 1% the size of Line 6. I would imagine that not even all the people who work at Line 6 know the answers to all your original questions. I don't think it's a matter of Line 6 not wanting to treat their customers fairly or with respect, I just think it's a matter of reality for a bigger company. Competition can be pretty cut-throat, and it companies need to be careful not to give their competitors anything in the way of things to use against them.

I also think that what everyone wants to hear is different. So you have your list, while thousands of other people have theirs. It's probably just easier to respond in a consistent way rather try to please everyone all the time.



Re: Vote for some more transparency and input on future development
by mput on 2011-09-16 07:19:29

I think the issue is, are they even working on the problems that we know still exist? Things like the looper , % on PEQ, reamping, eq's in general,  analog chorus, ect ...  I mean come on I don't see how keeping us in the loop would compromise L6. I think most if not all of us see the need for these issues to be fixed. I think the HD is a good unit however it can be better if they would just fix these things. If they are working on them then just say so.




Re: Vote for some more transparency and input on future development
by hansvaneven on 2011-09-16 07:28:46

I still don't think that giving some hints on firmware updates would harm anybody. You're saying that competition can be cuth throat, but it depends on what, new products yes (but then everybody could almost guess the arrival of the HD Pro ... no real news here, surely nothing throat cutting), but product updates or some hints on what to expect for next firmware updates, surely not.

I think one year with an unfinished product is a long time too, so I think the least L6 could do it chime in here and give some feedback to us,

Hans



Re: Vote for some more transparency and input on future development
by phil_m on 2011-09-16 07:36:37

I'm not sure why you keep on saying about the one year thing. The 1.31 update was released in May, and it was pretty substantial. Yes, there are some bugs that still need fixed, but it's not like Line 6 has just released the product and ignored it for a year.



Re: Vote for some more transparency and input on future development
by hansvaneven on 2011-09-16 08:18:39

I'm not sure why you keep on saying about the one year thing. The 1.31 update was released in May, and it was pretty substantial. Yes, there are some bugs that still need fixed, but it's not like Line 6 has just released the product and ignored it for a year.

One year, because for quite some people here without better EQ and some of the other points adressed (that have been posted here since day one), it's pretty incomplete, hence, most other devices even cheap ones have good EQ, the ones on the HD500 are toys. I know there have been updates but they didn't adress these points ...

Hans



Re: Vote for some more transparency and input on future development
by AZGdude on 2011-09-16 09:13:08

+1

I agree completely with Hans. It's been 1 year since release and the HD is still incomplete with lots of issues that have been around since day one. In reality, one year in the life of an electronics product is a VERY long time. It's time for Line 6 to finish the product already. I am tired of hearing excuses, its been 1 year and it is time to get it done.

And as far as transparency goes, Fractal is much more transparent about what they are working on. When a problem is pointed out they often state they are working on a fix and the fixes usually come quickly. They have also dropped some hints about what is coming in the version 2 firmware for the Axe2. In one year I expect Fractal to be on firmware version 3 or 4 with lots of new features, amps and effects added. A very different story from Line 6 and the HD.



Re: Vote for some more transparency and input on future development
by ozbadman on 2011-09-16 09:51:47

My view is if you want a finished product, buy an X3Live. No changes will be made to that in the future. What people want is the POD HD with more amps, more features, more effects, more configurability. If it was a finished product, we'd all be asking "when is Line 6 going to release the next product". The fact that since 1.31 the bug complaints here have dropped significantly suggests to me that mostly, people are satisfied with the state of affairs. Some minor bugs remain, and there seem to be some common requests like % freq, more usable EQs, XLR/1/4" Cab modelling differences, etc. but other than that, people mostly want additional new features. Thank goodness the product won't be "finished" at that stage but will in fact be the building platform for new amps, effects, etc. FWIW, it looks like they've been concentrating on getting the HD PRO out for the last couple of months and they released the software updates yesterday so hopefully that means they can get back to working on these things.



Re: Vote for some more transparency and input on future development
by relayerjb on 2011-09-16 10:03:10

I agree with AZG.  If they said we're working on xyz fixes, or we're working on some enhancements like new amps, I'd be more likely to wait and buy the unit (or buy it now and wait for the updates).  I don't see how something as simple as telling us info like that is going to compromise them vs their competition.  It's not like they're publishing the algorithms for how they're getting their HD sounds.  Plus, with corporate espionage, I'm sure all the companies know way more about what each other are doing than we ever will ;-)

On the other hand, saying nothing can make us *hope* for whatever it is we wish they'd add. In the absence of any info we can speculate all we want, get excited about what we think is coming, like dual-DSP in the Pro.  Oops.  Or, the lack of any information can make me decide to look at the competition.  Does Boss have a new GT-series coming out (no word yet), or go to the store to check out the Eleven Rack and Digitech IPB-10 (which I did).

If I knew Line 6 had updates coming I might wait for it.  If not, I might buy something else.  How does it help Line 6 to lose customers through lack of information?



Re: Vote for some more transparency and input on future development
by phil_m on 2011-09-16 10:09:05

I don't think anyone should buy a product based on what they hope it can be. They should buy it based on what it is now.

The way I look at is this. With the HD500, you get all the same effects as the M13 (plus at least one additional one), the ability to run 8 of them simultaneously instead of just 4, and the amp modeling for the same price as an M13. It's just a good deal the way it is now, imo. The stuff that Line 6 will add (and I suspect they will, don't have any insider info or anything) is icing on the cake. That's just the way I see it at the moment.



Re: Vote for some more transparency and input on future development
by relayerjb on 2011-09-16 10:36:06

Agreed.  But many people think that way.

I bought the 500 to see if it met my needs.  While it can sound great, it has enough shortcomings for me that I returned it.  And that's ok, it is what it is.  Now I'm looking at what other options there are.  I might end up deciding the HD *is* the best unit for me, or not.  The Pro would've been good enough for me if it had dual DSP.  I'd just like to make the most informed decision I can, and having some knowledge about what's in the works would be very helpful.



Re: Vote for some more transparency and input on future development
by mtreehugger on 2011-09-16 11:01:49

The fact that since 1.31 the bug complaints here have dropped significantly suggests to me that mostly, people are satisfied with the state of affairs. Some minor bugs remain, and there seem to be some common requests like % freq, more usable EQs, XLR/1/4" Cab modelling differences, etc. but other than that, people mostly want additional new features.



So you're concluding that complaints have dropped off because people are satisfied?  Might it not be that instead of being satisfied, they've found that their concerns are being ignored, and have sort of moved on out of the forum in disappointment?  Could it be that these customers that you assume to be satisfied are in fact eyeing up other products and/or selling their HD's on eBay?

Overall I'm still happy my my HD, but due to shortcomings in the cabs and eq's I haven't been able to dial in nearly as many usable tones as I originally anticipated, nor were the ones I do use all that easy to come by.  1.31 was a huge improvement, but still, the way things stand, it's actually prohibitive for me to try to explore different amp modelings (Edit being a huge disappointment for me), so I'm mostly just sticking with the same old same old.  And yes, I might soon join that group of customers who are evaluating products by other manufacturers.

The HD is a good product line with the potential to be a very good product line.  I believe it's in Line 6's best interests to address what you call "common requests," because after doing so customer satisfaction would go up, and the HD's would attract more buyers. 



Re: Vote for some more transparency and input on future development
by ozbadman on 2011-09-16 11:07:17

mtreehugger wrote:

So you're concluding that complaints have dropped off because people are satisfied? 

That's not what I said. Re-read my post. The number of bug threads on this forum pre-1.31 was huge.  Post-1.31 it dropped off significantly. I think that says they fixed the majority of the issues that were irking people. Not all, but most of the nasty ones.

mtreehugger wrote:


Overall I'm still happy my my HD, but due to shortcomings in the cabs and eq's I haven't been able to dial in nearly as many usable tones as I originally anticipated, nor were the ones I do use all that easy to come by.  1.31 was a huge improvement, but still, the way things stand, it's actually prohibitive for me to try to explore different amp modelings (Edit being a huge disappointment for me), so I'm mostly just sticking with the same old same old.  And yes, I might soon join that group of customers who are evaluating products by other manufacturers.

The HD is a good product line with the potential to be a very good product line.  I believe it's in Line 6's best interests to address what you call "common requests," because after doing so customer satisfaction would go up, and the HD's would attract more buyers. 

I agree and I suspect these will be some at some point, but unfortunately who knows when?



Re: Vote for some more transparency and input on future development
by duey101 on 2011-09-16 11:36:04

"the ability to run 8 of them simultaneously"

I would almsot agree with that statement if it were not for the fact that the thing is underpowered and I have hit the DSP error way too many times trying to setup tones and in effect, this totally limits your options for creating the right tone you are seeking.  I never had this problem with my POD XT.

The EQ issue is definitely a problem as is the limited chorus options.  A few more chorus options are a must for this unit in my opinion, having only the Tri and Analog is extremely limiting for me to do what I want to do with it.  Other than that most of the effects are good, but not the EQ's... ugh.

But overall it is much better than the XT.  Too bad most companies nowadays don't really put out a "finished" product but ask all of its customers to act as beta testers in effect by releasing buggy and not thoroughly tested products, otherwise they wouldn't be buggy.



Re: Vote for some more transparency and input on future development
by phil_m on 2011-09-16 11:43:41

Regarding the 8 simultaneous FX thing, I was thinking specifically of using the HD500 for FX only, as you would an M13. Without amp modeling, you'd have to try pretty hard to hit the DSP limit - like multiple DSP-intensive reverbs and smart harmony or something. I think I was able to have 5 instances of the spring reverb called up on the HD500 without hitting the limit when I tried before.

I don't know about the testing part. I just think that these devices offer so many different options in the way of setup variations and configurations. I just think it's impossible for companies to eliminate all bugs with software based products. It's just part of life.



Re: Vote for some more transparency and input on future development
by spaceatl on 2011-09-16 12:10:26

I am not voting for transparency...bunch of people did that a few years ago and now look at the mess we are in...



Re: Vote for some more transparency and input on future development
by hansvaneven on 2011-09-16 12:12:49

I don't know about the testing part. I just think that these devices offer so many different options in the way of setup variations and configurations. I just think it's impossible for companies to eliminate all bugs with software based products. It's just part of life.

Huh ? You're kidding Phil ? While I understand that small bugs may still stay in software and that it's hard to get them out, we're not talking about small issues, the EQ, re-amping, DSP limit when using two amp chains, are actually downgrades over X3 series, this is a design flaw period. For now I don't have the $ to buy a AXE FX II but I'm really starting to look for something else, or to add to the HD, sad enough I like the amp models and may keep the unit just for that, but the limits I described above are becoming annoying in real life use for me ...

Cheers,

Hans



Re: Vote for some more transparency and input on future development
by hansvaneven on 2011-09-16 12:13:28

I am not voting for transparency...bunch of people did that a few years ago and now look at the mess we are in...

???



Re: Vote for some more transparency and input on future development
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2011-09-16 12:16:34

Duey wrote:

I would almsot agree with that statement if it were not for the fact that the thing is underpowered and I have hit the DSP error way too many times trying to setup tones and in effect, this totally limits your options for creating the right tone you are seeking.  I never had this problem with my POD XT

Are you talking about tones that use two amp models?  Because you couldn't do that with the PODxt.  Do you have examples of tones using a single amp model where you've run out of DSP?

On the PODxt, could you add two or more mod effects, or multiple delays, route them in parallel or place any effect anywhere in the signal chain?  Did you have a looper always at the ready?



Re: Vote for some more transparency and input on future development
by phil_m on 2011-09-16 12:20:42

None of the things you mentioned are actually bugs. There pretty much just the way the unit it at the moment. Can some of them be changed? Probably - I don't know, really.  I just think you need to keep bugs and feature requests in separate columns. I think we should expect fixes to known bugs. I don't know if it's realistic to expect that every feature we want to see personally to be implemented.



Re: Vote for some more transparency and input on future development
by hansvaneven on 2011-09-16 12:47:11

Hey Phil, I know what's a bug and what's not, thanks for clarifying that! But I think you know what I meant don't you ? And my requests aren't just feature requests, hence just read these forums, the EQ issue, lack of re-amp possibilities is a design flaw ... for the EQ, this shouldn't be hard to do, it's just update or add a good fully parametric EQ to the FX list.

I bought this unit because I thought it would be better then the X3, while that was the case for the amp models, it IS a downgrade on some other points. So did I make a mistake and not read the feature list correctly ? Maybe, but one would expect this to be an evolution over older products not the inverse. I expect a product like the HD to be superioir over the X3 series, like most people.

What's actually fun on these forums, is that all L6Expert users are advocating L6 products, even if I'm quite sure they agree with what most people post here, this is becoming silly seriously ... that's not very productive IMHO, and sure won't help to get the product better.



Re: Vote for some more transparency and input on future development
by spaceatl on 2011-09-16 12:47:34

Just a bad joke...Why don't you use two HD500s?...That would give you two signal chains the way you are asking for less than an AXE FX...



Re: Vote for some more transparency and input on future development
by hansvaneven on 2011-09-16 12:49:02

Just a bad joke...Why don't you use two HD500s?...That would give you two signal chains the way you are asking for less than an AXE FX...

Could be an option ... but I was hoping that the HD pro would do that. Still looking around to see if something else can do the job now ...

Cheers,

Hans



Re: Vote for some more transparency and input on future development
by relayerjb on 2011-09-16 12:53:26

phil_m wrote:

I don't know if it's realistic to expect that every feature we want to see personally to be implemented.

Of course not.  But there are so many things that just really seem like no-brainers.

Regarding DSP and two amps, why couldn't they make DSP usage flexible so you could at least have a patch with two amps, that you use *one at a time* like one for rhythm and the other for solos?  This is a very common scenario, yet we're pretty much handicapped into not being able to do it if you want any useful amount of FX too.  If you're not using the amp model it isn't actually using DSP but the HD acts like it does.

Many people don't want to have to use two or more patches for one song...  you have to make sure the volumes stay balanced and that changes to any effects are kept in sync.  You also lose effect trails, and have to make sure the presets stay next to each other and in the same bank (if you move any presets that are "above" it in the list, the ones you want to keep together might relocate into different banks, i.e. if you had 2 presets in 3A and 3B, and moved one from Bank 1, then your two would be in 2D and 3A).

I also don't buy the whole thing about how much the price would have to go up with a 2nd or a better processor.  Especially on the Pro, since it's already significantly more expensive than the 500, what's a few more bucks for a significant increase in functionality?  No one is going to balk at an extra $50 for the Pro (or the 500 for that matter) if the unit does what they want.  I would've paid for it, and kept it.

@ spaceatl:  actually, that's not a bad idea.  Just one thing:  can you control the 2nd one from the first?  Don't really need to have two of them sitting there on the floor and having to step on both.  Or you could do this w/ one on the floor and controlling a Pro in your rack...  if it would work.

Nah.  Just make dsp work better.



Re: Vote for some more transparency and input on future development
by phil_m on 2011-09-16 12:56:53

Heck, you could buy and HD Pro and get an HD500 to augment it AND use the HD500 to control the HD Pro, and it would still be less than the Axe FX.



Re: Vote for some more transparency and input on future development
by gregr on 2011-09-16 13:26:13

...except that "POD HD Pro does not offer MIDI control of its internal Amp & FX parameters via an external, 3rd-party MIDI controller device. Likewise, it does not transmit MIDI messages corresponding to the adjustment of its Amp & FX parameters."  Yes, the HD500 will in fact behave like a 3rd-party device if used in the manner you are describing.

Also, do be careful when suggesting what one can buy with money spent on other products.  I have a feeling that more studio professionals will choose the 11R, though one might never get that impression if they only visit this forum.  That they will also save a decent chunk of change is besides the point.

Your suggestion would address the ongoing complaints about a lack of dual mode and DSP limitations, however.



Re: Vote for some more transparency and input on future development
by AZGdude on 2011-09-16 13:55:10

Yeah, but then for around the same price you could get an Eleven Rack or for a few more bucks you could buy a used Axe-Fx. The HD Pro is a big step down from either of them, especially if you already have an HD500.



Re: Vote for some more transparency and input on future development
by spaceatl on 2011-09-16 13:57:42

I did something like that in the 1980s....Two ADA MP-1s....Midi OUT->Midi IN...Since you can program custom CCs in a HD500, you could actually do some pretty neat things with 2 of them I think...But a pro would likely be a better way to go...maybe you could just link them on the Line 6 link? I don't know...

I have always approached dual tones with two separate devices, usually amps...because it means two amps...All in one box harkens of all in one stereos to me...sure they can do it, but separate components is generally do the job better....



Re: Vote for some more transparency and input on future development
by phil_m on 2011-09-16 14:05:21

Well, I guess the comparison to the Eleven Rack is up for debate. I've never tried the Eleven Rack myself. As I look at it, the FX portion of it looks a lot more limited than the HD500 or HD Pro. I have a friend who's very big into the blues (makes his living teaching online lessons) who tried it and wasn't impressed at all. Again, whether it's a stepdown is a matter of preference it seems.



Re: Vote for some more transparency and input on future development
by AZGdude on 2011-09-16 14:11:42

There are always exceptions to the rule. But the general consensus on any forum not controlled by Line 6 is that the 11R sounds better (amps and effects) but is more limited in routing.



Re: Vote for some more transparency and input on future development
by Nick_Mattocks on 2011-09-16 14:13:14

hansvaneven wrote:

Hey Phil, I know what's a bug and what's not, thanks for clarifying that! But I think you know what I meant don't you ? And my requests aren't just feature requests, hence just read these forums, the EQ issue, lack of re-amp possibilities is a design flaw ... for the EQ, this shouldn't be hard to do, it's just update or add a good fully parametric EQ to the FX list.

I bought this unit because I thought it would be better then the X3, while that was the case for the amp models, it IS a downgrade on some other points. So did I make a mistake and not read the feature list correctly ? Maybe, but one would expect this to be an evolution over older products not the inverse. I expect a product like the HD to be superioir over the X3 series, like most people.

What's actually fun on these forums, is that all L6Expert users are advocating L6 products, even if I'm quite sure they agree with what most people post here, this is becoming silly seriously ... that's not very productive IMHO, and sure won't help to get the product better.

Hans

I've kept quiet on this thus far.  I respect that you have an opinion.  We all have opinions and we have a right to express them.  Having an opinion doesn't necessarily mean that it's right.

The HD500 is what it is currently for the money and remember it doesn't cost anywhere near as much as an Axe FX or an Eleven Rack so for the additional money those units cost I would expect the Eleven Rack to be about 60% better in terms of useful features than the HD500 and the Axe FX II to be about 450% better in terms of useful features than the HD500.  Are either of these devices better than the HD500?  If they are indeed 'better' are they better in the same proportions as the retail prices would perhaps lead us as potential purchaser's expect them to be?  The answers depend on the purchaser's budget, requirements and expectations.  The answers are also bound to be subjective.

The HD500 was never marketed as a direct replacement for the X3 Live as far as I recall.  It is not an X3 Live in so many ways.  I can see why you might believe that it is being marketed as a replacement for the X3 Live, but that is simply based on the fact that the X3 Live was discontinued at about the same time as the HD500 came out.  The HD500 is a different animal entirely and has been designed afresh from the ground up.  Currently the HD500 does not support some of the attributes that the X3 Live did and maybe it never will.  Currently the HD500 can do a lot of things that the X3 Live could not.  The X3 Live and the HD500 are different.  The HD500 is currently what it is in terms of attributes/features or whatever you want to call them.

There are a few bugs that need some attention certainly.  There are a few things that I think could be improved too. What makes you think that new features and bug fixes aren't being attended to?  Line 6's history with previous products should be a good indicator of what's likely to come and what's not likley to come.  You already know Line 6's policy is not to discuss the future plans or developments for their products, so we won't know if anything is coming until it arrives. 

The HD500 has had a number of updates released since its inception less than a year ago and the last one was in May of this year - about four months ago by my reckoning

As Phil has already said, when you buy a product you should make your purchase based on what it can do now and whether or not what it can do now fits your requirements. 

What's not really fun, big or clever on these forums is seeing the tired old statements being trotted out about what ALL L6 Expert Users are or aren't advocating.  You said that to provoke a reaction of course and to perhaps get under someone's skin.  You succeeded. 

How can you be 100% sure of anything that we do or don't agree with?  I think we generally say if we agree or disagree with something.  You will of course believe what you want to believe.  I am 100% sure of that.  It's pointless arguing about it. 

Yep I do like most things about most Line 6 products.  I guess I am I think what some people might term a Line 6 Fan Boy.  My likes and dislikes about Line 6 and other manufacturer's products are based on first hand personal use and experience of those products.  I like Marshall products, I like some Behringer products, I like Alesis producst, I like Tascam products, I like some Digitech products, I like Fender, Gibson, Yamaha, Ibanez, Schecter and Line 6 guitars.  I like Roland and Boss products.  The list goes on...  I think I'm a general gear fanboy personally.  If something's good and I like it I'm going to say so.

If you think L6 Experts like me answering a few questions about the usage of Line 6 products here and there is advocating or not advocating Line 6 products you are clearly mistaken in what the forums are for and what our (my) reasons are for participating.  If someone asks for an opinion I invariably answer those sorts of questions based on my personal findings through my personal experience not someone else's third hand opinion.  Believe it or not, but I always answer fully and honestly to the best of my ability and I cannot let your little dig about my integrity and that of the other L6 Experts pass unanswered.  We all participate here freely and we try to help out where we can.  A lot of users on these forums also do that freely whether they have a L6 Expert badge or not.   I occasionally express an opinion but always stress that it is MY opinion.  Users are free to make their own judgements on whether the information I've offered is worth taking any notice of or not.   I ALWAYS advise potential purchasers to try before they buy.

The bottom line really is I believe that most contributors to these Line 6 forums want the products Line 6 produce to be the best they can be and that definitely includes me.  If I see something about a Line 6 product that I think could be improved or I spot a bug, then I do something about it by submitting feedback.  I suggest that you do the same through the proper channels using the product feedback forms because that's the way the product development teams get to see what users want directly.  That's the way it works. 

If the HD500 as it stands doesn't fit your needs or expectations and you really believe that it never will, then it's clearly not the right product for you.  It's likely that it will never satisfy you, so why waste your time with something you don't like or can't use to your best advantage?

Over and out.

Nick



Re: Vote for some more transparency and input on future development
by gregr on 2011-09-16 15:14:17

nickmattocks wrote:

The HD500 is what it is currently for the money and remember it doesn't cost anywhere near as much as an Axe FX or an Eleven Rack so for the additional money those units cost I would expect the Eleven Rack to be about 60% better in terms of useful features than the HD500 and the Axe FX II to be about 450% better in terms of useful features than the HD500

And one should expect the same from the higher price of the HD Pro.  Something to consider regarding the 11R: it can be purchased in the States for $698.  With this in mind will the Pod HD Pro be 40% better?  BTW, this $698 includes a license for Pro Tools which is bound to be worth something to some people, conceding your point on subjectivity.

I think I'm a general gear fanboy personally.  If something's good and I like it I'm going to say so.

Amen!



Re: Vote for some more transparency and input on future development
by gregr on 2011-09-16 15:29:24

spaceatl wrote:

I did something like that in the 1980s....Two ADA MP-1s....Midi OUT->Midi IN...Since you can program custom CCs in a HD500, you could actually do some pretty neat things with 2 of them I think...But a pro would likely be a better way to go...maybe you could just link them on the Line 6 link? I don't know...

I have an ADA MP-1 and thought it might be cool to have two so that I can change from clean to dirty without the annoying pop that mine has, though there were other cool rack units back to pair with the ADA within a year or two of the MP-1 coming out.  Was this the reason why you went with two MP-1s or was there something else?

Like with the HD Pro, I don't think a second HD500 will be able to get control from the first outside of what can be done by any third-party MIDI controller.  IOW, CC messages are out of the question, at least through MIDI.  Line 6 Link might be a different story, though I doubt it.  I'm pretty certain that it would have been proudly documented, otherwise.  Such an implementation does seem feasible, however.



Re: Vote for some more transparency and input on future development
by Nick_Mattocks on 2011-09-16 15:50:28

gregr wrote:

And one should expect the same from the higher price of the HD Pro.  There are two things to consider regarding the 11R: it can be purchased in the states for $698.  With this in mind will the Pod HD Pro be 40% better?  BTW, this $698 includes a license for Pro Tools which is bound to be worth something to some people, conceding your point on subjectivity.

Good point.  It is subjective and it comes down to what the customer finds is the best fit for his or her purposes and which modelling scheme produces the best sound in the end user's own judgement.

It also depends on whether the end user needs an all-in-one floorboard solution like the HD500 or a rack based solution which can be kept out of harm's way at the back of the stage along with the amp.

It's early days for the POD HD Pro and the firmware version is still the initial release version.  Currently, aside from the additional i/o options it is keeping pace with the POD HD500 and POD HD desktop.

According to Web based dealer prices current UK average pricing for the POD HD Pro is £629, whilst the HD500 is £409 and the POD HD desktop is £339 (you may find some dealers with lower prices and some with higher prices). The Eleven Rack is priced at £666.22 at DV247 and does come with a version of Pro Tools.  In-store prices for a number of manufacturer's music related goods may be different from Web advertised prices.  On paper at least, the Eleven Rack does look like an attractive alternative to the POD HD Pro it has to be said, so a prospective user's decision has to be based on how each unit sounds and how easy each one is to configure as well as any bundled software that might be included.

Nick



Re: Vote for some more transparency and input on future development
by gregr on 2011-09-16 16:15:35

I hope the pricing for the HD Pro is in flux.  At $979 I don't think it will do very well; $599 is really what it should be.  As a gigging musician who would also need to purchase a controller, to me it still wouldn't be worth the extra expense (nor is the 11R, no matter how much better it might sound).

Still, a large part of me does want to do the 4CM thing (as I have some very nice preamplification at my disposal), and in that respect a rack is probably better than long runs of cable, yet I don't want to lug a rack around and find space for it.



Re: Vote for some more transparency and input on future development
by relayerjb on 2011-09-16 16:23:52

AZG:  But the general consensus on any forum not controlled by Line 6 is that the 11R sounds better (amps and effects) but is more limited in routing.

I tried an 11R a few days ago and pretty much agree.  I was playing thru a small studio monitor so couldn't really judge compared to using my amp or a full-sized FRFR unit but I liked the amps.  I'd have to go side-by-side w/ the HD to make a real assessment.  (they were certainly better than my GT8 though ;-)   They seemed hard to work with in that the controls weren't always on the same knob, etc.  They have all the essential FX but not some pretty common ones like Pitch/whammy or Mutron/envelope etc.  And certainly none of the esoteric ones like what's on the HD, and not as many of a certain type (2 reverbs and compressors instead of 6-8) but that's fine with me as long as they do their job.  They do have many of the amps people on here seem to want:  Mesa MkII, Soldano, Matchless DC30, Marshall w/ Variac, and a couple of bass heads.  Routing did seem more limited but I didn't have much time to explore it, or check out the Pro Tools editing interface to see how it functioned.  I would be interested in getting Pro Tools though; I'm planning to start setting up a home studio anyway.

Regarding using two HD:  You could put one in the fx loop of the other, sort of a 4 cable method.  You can turn off the amp in one, and turn on the loop containing the other, with one footswitch.  Or use some fx from the floor and others from the rack.  But you still have to make sure levels are balanced, the patches are in sync and are triggered properly via MIDI, etc.  I suppose that's no worse than if you were using 4-cm with an amp for some patches and the HD for others.  It's probably more work than I'm willing to do, but I'm starting to like the idea...  ;-)



Re: Vote for some more transparency and input on future development
by spaceatl on 2011-09-16 16:35:53

You probably have some dry caps if it is popping...They do dry up after a while...I haven't checked the site in a while but this site has a lot of good info for the MP-1...I don't know what the problem is, but it should not pop on program changes...

All you should really have is very short mute when going from the clean tube voicing<->dist tube voicing...changing within the same voicing should be instant on an MP-1...

http://adadepot.com/

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Re: Vote for some more transparency and input on future development
by gregr on 2011-09-16 16:45:12

The off-topicness is probably getting out of hand and this isn't going to help any, but...

There was a time when I was considering using my HD500 to control a DigiTech GSP1101 because, for the most part, I think the DigiTech effects sound better than those offered by Line 6.  The hookup was something like 6CM, though I don't remember if I was also considering using one or more external preamps.  It can get complicated quickly, but there are loop switchers and the like available.  The cool thing about the DigiTech products is that you can use a cabinet model without an amp model, and in the case of the GSP1101, you also have the ability to apply a cabinet model just to the XLR, instead of generic speaker compensation available on DigiTech's other MFX units.



Re: Vote for some more transparency and input on future development
by gregr on 2011-09-16 16:56:39

spaceatl wrote:

You probably have some dry caps if it is popping...They do dry up after a while



It's always been the case, even when new.  The pop was really just  a massive volume spike, which happens whenever I switch from a patch with a lower master level to one with a significantly higher master level (dist -> clean).  It's like it switches the master level before it switched the drive levels. It might be the other way around, but still it's like not all the controls switched over at the same time.  There definitely wasn't any muting going on during voicing changes that I can remember, that's for sure.

It's been almost 20 years since I gigged with the thing, so I'm not sure of everything except the spike.  My workaround was simply to make sure my guitar wasn't ringing when I changed patches, then switching was silent.

...more off-topicness, ugh!  Thanks for responding spaceatl, and thanks to everyone else for patiently wading through.



Re: Vote for some more transparency and input on future development
by irishpriest on 2011-09-16 17:01:36

You got my vote!

I have been a long time user of Line 6 and this is my biggest beef with them. They're not building government top secret weapons but they act like they are. They need to take advantage of technology and see that being open and communicating  with your supporters is a good idea. I would love for some transparency and be able to know what the future of my purchase might behold.

I have even thought about selling my Pod HD and saying goodbye to Line 6 Gear after being sick of the way they hide from us. They did let details about update 1.31 slip out before its release and it was a very good improvement and those 2 are reasons are why I stuck around. They need to do more of this!

Its time for line 6 to get out of the stone age of doing business and catch up to companies like Fractal Audio (Axe FX), and Avid (Eleven Rack, Pro tools), It blew my mind the way big giants like Avid are listening too and engaging with their fans and supporters, They have really turned it around and are a company I am no longer ashamed to say I support.

Take notes Line 6 ...



Re: Vote for some more transparency and input on future development
by gregr on 2011-09-16 17:06:58

I may be mistaken but I think Fractal Audio is just one guy.

The Eleven Rack used to have the name DigiDesign associated with it and now it's Avid.  I don't know any of that history; zip, zero, nada.



Re: Vote for some more transparency and input on future development
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2011-09-16 17:09:07

gregr wrote:

Something to consider regarding the 11R: it can be purchased in the States for $698.  With this in mind will the Pod HD Pro be 40% better?  BTW, this $698 includes a license for Pro Tools which is bound to be worth something to some people

FWIW, I owned the 11R for a brief time.  I liked many of the amp models, especially the Marshalls.  Two big problems with it, though:

1.  Horrible effects.  Just awful.  Even with the expansion pack.  Boss has better, as does Line6, Digitech, and just about everyone else.

2.  Low quality A/D converters on input.  The noise floor is just too high.  Couple this with a really bad noise gate and it was almost impossible to use live.  At least for me.

Pro Tools...meh.  Reaper is better for FAR cheaper.



Re: Vote for some more transparency and input on future development
by phil_m on 2011-09-16 17:12:47

$979 is the MSRP. The street price or MAP will be $699, I'm sure.



Re: Vote for some more transparency and input on future development
by gregr on 2011-09-16 17:18:17

I'll believe it when I see it.

Right now there is no reduced "street price" available to people in the UK from dealers who appear to be accepting orders.

I have a hard time believing $699 will go over all that well (READ: Eleven Rack $698).  The HD Pro should be $599.



Re: Vote for some more transparency and input on future development
by spaceatl on 2011-09-16 17:19:11

That might be...last time I used my ADA heavily was 5 years ago with my Flextone IIIXL...Not really conventional usage...I used it as a programable EQ on the clean tube voicing mostly...just to augment the EQ of the Flexy...running through some tubes did seem to help...It definitely helped the feel on that amp...Now it sits in the basement and I use it sometimes...pretty rare lately, but I will never part with it...still works...

I wonder if you and I have different eproms...Mine is a 2.01...Do you have an original 1.38?I think you can update it if I remembering right...

Now I am not so sure, I do remember something about popping...I need to check that out again...I honestly am not really remembering now...maybe it was a dropout dist->clean and a pop clean->dist....pretty sure mine has always done a slight dropout...I had two other ones that are long gone now, but I don't remmber the popping or I am just forgetting that I worked around it without knowing it... lol!



Re: Vote for some more transparency and input on future development
by phil_m on 2011-09-16 17:19:16

http://www.bananasmusic.com/productdetail.asp/pid_18914/productname_Line-6-POD-HD-Pro

Bythe way, the $698 price you're quoting for the 11R is only at that one site you linked. Everywhere else, it's still $899. I don't know why it's cheaper at the one site than the others at the moment. Perhaps they're dropping the price?



Re: Vote for some more transparency and input on future development
by gregr on 2011-09-16 17:22:15

That came up today because they had nothing yesterday.  They're a half hour from my house, actually the new one is closer.  This crow tastes better with a little salt.  Thanks Phil!



Re: Vote for some more transparency and input on future development
by ozbadman on 2011-09-16 17:22:52

AZGdude wrote:

There are always exceptions to the rule. But the general consensus on any forum not controlled by Line 6 is that the 11R sounds better (amps and effects) but is more limited in routing.

It's not controlled by Line, it's hosted by Line 6.



Re: Vote for some more transparency and input on future development
by gregr on 2011-09-16 17:28:05

Controlled/hosted/whatever, the point still stands.  You are always going to have (in some cases rabid) fanboyism at a manufacturer-specific forum.  For this reason I don't visit many or take what I read on them all too seriously.  No offense to those with whom I have a good rapport or those with whom I have no familiarity.  No offense to anyone, really; this is perfectly normal behavior.

This is not to say that the advice or knowledge on this forum is unreliable or sub-par.  It's quite the opposite, really.  Most of the people here know their stuff and provide excellent advice.  The help is not always Line 6-specific, and I don't happen to find the recommendations to be overly Line 6-centric.  Most of all, I find it to be honest.  People here like their gear, and for good reason.

Since I didn't actually give my two cents on the actual topic, I don't feel entitled to knowledge of future development.  If Line 6 says they'll address something, then I do feel they should provide  the courtesy of keeping people up to date periodically as to their progress.  I agree that you buy something for what it is, not what it might potentially turn into, though I am pretty certain from past behavior that new amp models will become available.  I wish there would be new models some improvements in the current models in the way of effects, but I doubt this will ever happen.  At the worst, it will mean buying a few extra effects, but at the end of the day I feel good knowing that the product I bought will handle the majority of my needs.



Re: Vote for some more transparency and input on future development
by phil_m on 2011-09-16 17:37:22

I find that every forum has its own personality. I occasionally look at places like The Gear Page and Harmony Central, and, honestly most of the people on those forums sound like spoiled teenagers to me. I doubt that most of them play for a crowd bigger than their dog. I just think there's a lot of hype in general on forums.  Fanboyism happens in different ways all over the place.

I've found that for most things, you really can't trust someone else's review, at least for the actual sound and feel part of it. Reliability issues somewhat, but the again, there's the squeaky wheel syndrome - 4 people with the same problem becomes a "majority of users" on the internet...

Line 6 is pretty open here on these forums. They only lock or delete threads as an absolute last resort. There's probably only been about half a dozen in my time here. Of the actual people who post here will always be skewed. These are, after all, users' forums.



Re: Vote for some more transparency and input on future development
by ozbadman on 2011-09-16 18:11:20

Well, the implication is that if you like a manufacturer's product, your view is lessened by that position. It also implies that if you go to a manufacturer's forum site and denigrate thier product, your view must be stronger as you're not a 'fanboy'. I refute the implication. I like some of the things about Line 6 products not because I love Line 6, but because for me, relative to their competition, the feature set, tone quality and price point they provide is better, for my needs. If a competitor suited my needs better, I'd use their products.

I agree that on the whole, if you go to a manufacturer's hosted forum site obviously, more of the people who are there are going to like that company's products, or they wouldn't bother being there. It's not human nature, it's statistics. So yeah, I'm not surprised that if you go to the Fractal Forum people overall will prefer the Axe FX. Again, that doesn't make them fanboys, just that their particularly needs are fulfilled by that product.

Everybody wins!

Your statement however was that if you go to any non-Line 6 forum they're all saying the 11R sounds better. I've been to a few and haven't seen that to be the case so I also dispute that. Metal players do seem to find the Axe better for their tones and hands-down for OTT atmospheric stuff, but the HD series seems to be the winner for Rock and Blues at this stage. At least that's my takeway from the other forums.



Re: Vote for some more transparency and input on future development
by spaceatl on 2011-09-16 18:29:58

Fractal doesn't take criticism...they just delete it...



Re: Vote for some more transparency and input on future development
by gregr on 2011-09-16 18:46:01

You're free to interpret what I said in any way you wish, but I think you're a bit off-base.  Please read what else I said while you were busy typing.

I don't discount what is said here, I take it with a grain of salt.  Over the last few months, I have found the overall quality of discussion has been better than when I first started visiting on a regular basis.  Maybe it's because the whole fizz thing finally died.

If I am to believe what I've heard and read after applying my own filter, I'm under the impression that the HD is close behind the Eleven Rack and not really in the same league as the AxeFX, though it's doing very well for what I'm willing to pay.

Based on the gear I own, there is no question in my mind that of almost every effect that DigiTech has in common with Line 6 which I use, those by DigiTech are sound better with the Smart Harmony being the largest exception.  I also think DigiTech offers better choices in the way of types of effects I like with the exception of the Script 90 and the Tube Driver; and these are huge exceptions.  Both of these effects by Line 6 are absolutely fabulous.  If I had my druthers, I would want Line 6 to start over on the noise gate which is perhaps only a cut above rubbish and do a better job with the choruses and offer a good slight pitch detune.  Admittedly I have not spent any time with the Tri-chorus, so maybe it will be better (so long as it is not too hot like the others).  I could go on and on with the filter effects and the like, but these are the main ones.  Why don't I just use a DigiTech?  MIDI, lack of preamp-only models, simultaneous effects of the same type and more flexible routing.  I suppose the iPB-10 can address some of these, but I'm not about to go buy an iPad in order to make a piece of music gear work properly.



Re: Vote for some more transparency and input on future development
by hansvaneven on 2011-09-17 07:15:25

The HD500 was never marketed as a direct replacement for the X3 Live as far as I recall.  It is not an X3 Live in so many ways.  I can see why you might believe that it is being marketed as a replacement for the X3 Live, but that is simply based on the fact that the X3 Live was discontinued at about the same time as the HD500 came out.  The HD500 is a different animal entirely and has been designed afresh from the ground up.  Currently the HD500 does not support some of the attributes that the X3 Live did and maybe it never will.  Currently the HD500 can do a lot of things that the X3 Live could not.  The X3 Live and the HD500 are different.  The HD500 is currently what it is in terms of attributes/features or whatever you want to call them.

Nick,

with all respect, while it wasn't announced as a replacement, it's quite obvious that when you remove an article (in this case the X3 Live) for a new one (the HD500) that it's a replacment marketing wise ... now on the hardware/software side I understand that things may change or that we can expect some kind of evolution (which the HD500 sure is in terms of sound on the amp modeling side), but not a de-volution in terms of possibilities, again the re-amping and EQ's come to mind (note that the EQ's where easier and better on the X3 or Podfarm 2.5 Platinum which I also bought and use each day ... and with which I don't have DSP limits so far here LOL)

There are a few bugs that need some attention certainly.  There are a few things that I think could be improved too. What makes you think that new features and bug fixes aren't being attended to?  Line 6's history with previous products should be a good indicator of what's likely to come and what's not likley to come.  You already know Line 6's policy is not to discuss the future plans or developments for their products, so we won't know if anything is coming until it arrives.

 

The HD500 has had a number of updates released since its inception less than a year ago and the last one was in May of this year - about four months ago by my reckoning

As Phil has already said, when you buy a product you should make your purchase based on what it can do now and whether or not what it can do now fits your requirements.

I think you're both wrong on this, I sold my X3 live to buy the HD500 mostly for recording, but I'm also using it live and it's always hard to base your opinion before buying a product just reading the tech specs on a website (which is mostly full of marketing hype anyway), you have to put your hands on it before being able to judge .... the store I bought it from was 1000km from here, and no other store had it here around Bordeaux when I ordered it.

Also, these days with computer based updates (and the HD500 is nothing more then a computer with DSP and code and I/O options) one could expect some things, I surely didn't knew the EQ was that bad on the HD or so badly implemented. I have a long time experience with EQ/Comps and FX and really scratched my head the first time I tried to tweak the EQ's (except then Graphic EQ, which is modeled after a 10 band EQ only with 5 bands LOL)

And no, Im not here to provoke anyone, I'm a loyal L6 user since day one of the Pod bean history and just for the record of it I demoed Washburn guitars and Randall stuff at Musikmesse earlier this year and used the M9 live at the Agora stage on my Randall and all the demos during Musikmesse. So I really like the L6 stuff, but have the feeling some important things get ignored for a too long time regarding the HD which is sad.

What's not really fun, big or clever on these forums is seeing the tired old statements being trotted out about what ALL L6 Expert Users are or aren't advocating.  You said that to provoke a reaction of course and to perhaps get under someone's skin.  You succeeded. 

Again, nothing to do with provoking, just read answers from expert users here on the forums and you'd have to agree that there's quite a lot of advokating going on but then I understand it's a L6 forum. Critisism is something that may sound negative, but I learned that that's the only way to improve or get your voice out. Maybe I may sound vocal now, but all these points have been submitted via the official feedback channel, so after one year I just hope they may get adressed.

What we ask is not the algorythms of the FX or amps like someone already stated here but just some insight if we should expect some updates or not. If re-amping isn't technically possible on the HD500, or if it's impossible to implement the possibility to send simulated CAB signal to PA + preamp to guitar power amp, then please be honest about it, just being silent is a little suspicious. Same for some other limitations like the DSP limit etc. I don't think that's too much asked and it sure won't hurt the companie (the contrary may be right).

The bottom line really is I believe that most contributors to these Line 6 forums want the products Line 6 produce to be the best they can be and that definitely includes me.  If I see something about a Line 6 product that I think could be improved or I spot a bug, then I do something about it by submitting feedback.  I suggest that you do the same through the proper channels using the product feedback forms because that's the way the product development teams get to see what users want directly.  That's the way it works. 

That's what I always do, but I also think the forums are a good way to see if other people feel the same. Also, some feedback from L6 is really important especially on forums like these. Just a few hints from time to time won't hurt anyone.

If the HD500 as it stands doesn't fit your needs or expectations and you really believe that it never will, then it's clearly not the right product for you.  It's likely that it will never satisfy you, so why waste your time with something you don't like or can't use to your best advantage?

Like I stated before, I'm really happy with the amp modeling of the HD500 but was dissapointed about the lack of re-amping, DSP limit, EQ's and some FX, so yes maybe I should replace it or get another FX device just for the EQ's and FX, but before I do so I'd like to hear from L6 if these points are worked on or not. Would feel really silly if I buy an extra FX and then see an update from L6 with better EQ's and FX

Anyway, I respect your position even if I feel different,

Cheers,

Hans



Re: Vote for some more transparency and input on future development
by ozbadman on 2011-09-17 11:23:09

hansvaneven wrote:

What's not really fun, big or clever on these forums is seeing the tired old statements being trotted out about what ALL L6 Expert Users are or aren't advocating.  You said that to provoke a reaction of course and to perhaps get under someone's skin.  You succeeded. 

Again, nothing to do with provoking, just read answers from expert users here on the forums and you'd have to agree that there's quite a lot of advokating going on but then I understand it's a L6 forum. Critisism is something that may sound negative, but I learned that that's the only way to improve or get your voice out. Maybe I may sound vocal now, but all these points have been submitted via the official feedback channel, so after one year I just hope they may get adressed.

Despite you telling me I'd have to agree, no, I don't agree. I don't believe the L6 experts are any more adovcating or otherwise than any other forum members. As Nick has repeatedly said, he tries to simply present in perspective in all cases. You are effectively denigrating their views based solely on the fact that they have a L6 expert tag. To me, the possession-or-otherwise of a L6 expert tag is irrelevant to the debate.

I do agree that you're not trying to provoke anyone and are simply presenting your perspective. But your perspective is coming across that your views are unbiased, and L6 experts are biased. This in my opinion is a false view. Everybody has their own biases of course, but the L6 experts in my opinion actually go out of their way to try to be unbiased in their opinions, and mostly just try to help people get the sounds that they want out of the gear.

I have seen all the L6 experts be critical of certain aspects of things Line 6 is doing so they are certainly capable of criticism. Nor do I think they would defend Line 6 if a reasonable argument was put forward. They mostly just try to help people get the tone they want, sort through technical issues and I would imagine a big thing for them, learn from what others are doing with Line 6 as well as every other manufacturer's gear.

As you say, you actually like a lot of things about Line 6 gear, as do I, and the L6 experts. We also like lots of things about other company's gear. I just don't think it's fair or accurate to present the case that the L6 Experts have a pre-bias towards Line 6. Debate them on the merits of the technical points of your argument instead.

That being said, I can for example see why people are complaining about the DSP limit. I can also see why others are OK with it as it obviously makes the device cheaper. The point is, if the device suits your needs, great. If not, and there's nothing L6 can or will do about it, maybe an alternative or nothing is the way to go. Of course, we can always continue to put suggestions forward to Line 6 and they can make a decision as to whether it makes business sense to do so.

While I disagree with the way you are presenting your case, and some of the points in it Hans, I do think you are being reasonable about it, which is not always the case in these things. Hopefully I am being the same.

Cheers,

David.



Re: Vote for some more transparency and input on future development
by AZGdude on 2011-09-17 11:53:29

Karl_Houseknecht wrote:

gregr wrote:

Something to consider regarding the 11R: it can be purchased in the States for $698.  With this in mind will the Pod HD Pro be 40% better?  BTW, this $698 includes a license for Pro Tools which is bound to be worth something to some people

FWIW, I owned the 11R for a brief time.  I liked many of the amp models, especially the Marshalls.  Two big problems with it, though:

1.  Horrible effects.  Just awful.  Even with the expansion pack.  Boss has better, as does Line6, Digitech, and just about everyone else.

2.  Low quality A/D converters on input.  The noise floor is just too high.  Couple this with a really bad noise gate and it was almost impossible to use live.  At least for me.

Pro Tools...meh.  Reaper is better for FAR cheaper.

I feel the need to again point out that the general consensus outside of the Line 6 forums is that generally the 11R amp and effect models sound better than the HD, but there are far fewer effects and the routing and some other things are not as good as the HD500/Pro. The price of the HD Pro puts it in direct competition with the 11R so anyone considering one should consider the other. IMHO the 11R is a better product at that price point. But YMMV.

But I digress. Going back to the main point of this tread. I agree Line 6 needs to communicate more with their customers. With the 1.31 release they were actually doing a better job. Their big mistake was giving rather specific release dates that came and went upsetting many users. Unfortunately after the release of 1.31 things have gone back to business as usual (information blackout) leaving customers to always wonder if they are listening or if anything else is ever going to get fixed. Bad decision in my opinion.



Re: Vote for some more transparency and input on future development
by Nick_Mattocks on 2011-09-17 13:32:08

Hi Hans

Thank you for your considered reply.  I think I probably saw you doing your demo stuff for Washburn and Randall earlier this year at MusikMesse.  It was a BIG show though and lots to try and take in.   I expect you went over to the Line 6 stand and had a chat with some of the guys there during the show at some point - well I would hope you did

I agree that feedback and constructive criticism is good and productive.   Negative criticism is fine too if it's justified and the tone is kept respectful.  Positive suggestions about how to improve matters are never unwelcome.

I know that most if not all the points you've raised have been raised before and yes I do agree that the EQ's could be labelled differently in order to make them easier to understand if coming from the perspective of previously having used hardware EQ devices.  I also agree that there are one or two minor issues concerning the behaviour of some of the modulation and delay FX which give a bit of a boost. 

I am not disagreeing that open discussion between any company and its customers isn't good.  I think that Rich Renken's Future of Variax thread a couple of years ago was absolutely brilliant in this respect and I think it helped the customer-company relationship immensely from where I'm sitting at least.   However because of the nature of the industry and particularly the nature of the bits of the industry that Line 6 is focused on and because it is very competitive, it is necessary to keep a lot of what's going on behind the scenes quiet or you may find that competitors are able to beat you to market because as a company you've given the game away. 

Line 6 have a very strict policy on non-disclosure and that is why Line 6 employees or affiliates cannot become involved in two way fully open discussions about anything that's in development and have to sign an NDA. 

I'm 100% sure Line 6 listen very closely to their users.  The proof of that 'listening' has come to the fore many times before with many products that Line 6 have offered in response to user's wishes.  I have absolutely no doubt that Line 6's antennae are pointing directly at this very forum and others to see what people are saying about the new POD HD Pro for one thing, what people are finding with regard to the other POD HD devices and how the previous firmware updates have been accepted as well as being reminded of things that are on collective 'wish lists'.  I also believe Line 6 like other companies creates occasional focus groups made up of groups of ordinary end users from time-to-time and gets feedback from them in person.  You sometimes see Line 6 advertising for anyone interested in coming in to their US HQ in Calabasas to have a look at stuff and maybe feed back on what they see as well as offer any thoughts or ideas of things they'd like to see Line 6 develop.

As things stand it is impossible to send two differently voiced output signals from the same signal chain(s) to PA and an on-stage amp.  This was picked up when the HD500 was first released and has been acknowledged as being so by Line 6.  I spent some considerable time looking into ways around the issue and found something acceptable - not necessarily perfect to everyone's requirements, but certainly acceptable in the form of a DI box with speaker cab emulation.  You can do something certainly by using two amp models in parallel with one having cab emulation and the other not having cab emulation turned on, but this is not as efficient in terms of DSP resources as a £25 GBP external DI box.  Whether it's a relatively simple thing to implement in the HD500 code or not I couldn't tell you but I am certain Line 6 know that a significant number of users would like this to be looked at and implemented if possible as it has been requested as highlighted on this forum by sending product feedback through the corrrect channels.

As things stand using the HD500 alone - re-amping would not really be feasible - I have an untested germ of an idea that might work to a degree, but it would be mono at best if it did work.  I have a feeling it probably won't work anyway - but I may test it when I've thought it through properly, however that would still be relatively messy and not without risk.  If you have an existing audio interface, then re-amping using the POD HD500 is definitely feasible of course.

The FX in your HD500 are the same M series FX in your M9, my M13 and M5.  They behave the same way there too.  I'm not saying improvements can't be made, but I can't tell you whether they will be.

The DSP limit is real.  It's a physical limitation in every modeller out there.  The flexibility of allowing users to load whatever amp models and whatver FX they want, where they want and how many times they want as the HD500, POD HD desktop and POD HD Pro allow shows up that the DSP limit can be exceeded occasionally.  Some of my presets are relatively complex and I very rarely see the DSP limint exceeded message in all honesty - I won't say 'never' but it is certainly rare.  It would be great if this message never popped up for sure but I wouldn't want that at the expense of the quality of the amp and FX models by dumbing anything down to make it fit.  The current HD units have the DSP resources they have and that won't change for units already in circulation and is unlikely to change in the current incarnations of the POD HD500 derived units like the POD HD and HD Pro

As for the X3 Live and HD500 being a direct replacement for it.  This was never the case.  it was widely stated in this forum by most of the experts at the time that the HD500 was a new device and that it wasn't a direct replacement for the the X3L.  I'm sure that was echoed by Line 6 staff too.  I distinctly recall personally advising several users who already had an X3 Live and were looking at moving to the HD500 that it would be a good idea if at all possible to try and hang on to their X3L in the short term at least because again the HD500 was not a replacement for the the X3L. I know that at least some other Experts did the same. 

As I said last time, I can see why you might have had pre-conceived ideas about the HD500 being a more or less direct replacement for the X3L - it's not hard to fall into that self made trap by having made assumptions, but in reality those ideas were yours and had you looked at the specifications closely enough, looked at the forum questions and answers or asked questions yourself you would have been aware that the HD500 could not do some of the things the X3 Live could do.   I've also been surprised by stuff like this elsewhere (not Line 6) too because I've assumed things I perhaps shouldn't have assumed.  I try never to assume anything.  It's generally the best approach in my job too.

Whilst I fully understand your problem and (understandable) impatience in not being able to get your hands on an HD500 to try before you purchased it back at the beginning, I guess that was down to you wanting (understandably) to be an early adopter and your local Line 6 dealer not having received his stock.   I waited ten months for my James Tyler Variax JTV-59 so I know all about feelings of patience and impatience I can assure you

Yes, the HD range and all the other PODs are basically specialised computers with computer chips, processors, memory A>D and D>A converters and computer code.  Computer code can be modified, and has been for all the firmware updates received so far.  As someone who works in the computer industry, I know that not everything that appears simple superficially, is actually as simple to implement - and that's on the computer side.  These specialised computers we call POD HD are no different.  When implementing any kind of significant change, you have to ensure that implementing that change is not going to break something else as part of a domino effect - say an essential building block for a number of parts of the overall code is changed and then causes unexpected behaviour elsewhere.  That involves product testing allover again before putting new code on general public release.  Again, as someone who works in the computer industry you often have to use a softly softly approach to making changes to any system so that it's easy to backtrack and undo what was just done as necessary - the key to this is 'change one thing at a time and test before moving on'.  Some of what you're asking for may require a substantial demolition of a chunk of code before rebuilding in a form that will allow some of the features you're looking for to be implemented.  If that is the case then that's a fairly major task I would imagine - and not only that, whatever is done has to take into account what's gone before and maintain backward compatibility.  Someone with a full set of 512 carefully crafted user patches in their HD500 is going to be pretty hacked off if they have to go through each one and modify it because something in the HD500 has been fundamentally changed without any care about this.  Maybe therefore, some of the things we would like to see in the POD HD/POD HD500/POD HD Pro are technically possible, but not necessarily without upsetting the apple cart as it stands right now, so maybe they will never see the light of day in the current POD HD/HD500/HD Pro incarnations. 

The guys at Line 6 are the experts in being clever programmers and I'm fairly certain that if some of this stuff can be achieved with no pain to the end user and within a reasonable time frame, as long as funds from sales are there to fund the development time needed, we may see some stuff happen but of course equally we may not.  

I don't know if you were around the forums in the early days of the POD X3 Live in 2007 when at the time there was no editor available.  If you were, you will have had to have been asleep if you missed the forum threads asking for, nay demanding (often with menaces) the production of an editor quick pronto.  Line 6 through their staff on this forum made an announcement that there would be an editor and that it would be called GearBox.  Inevitably people asked: 'when will GearBox be released?'.   A rough estimated release date was announced and as with all things like this where software development is concerned in general, that date was missed.  People got heated - VERY heated.  A second estimated deadline was missed - obviously because the product was not ready.  People got EVEN MORE heated and threatened all sorts of repurcussions.  Line 6 took a bashing.  a lot of that bashing was directed towards Customer Support who are here to assist people with technical problems rather than be abused.  Customer Support staff are not the product development staff and have no direct input into product development as such.  Product development staff are a separate bunch of people.  I'm sure they copped their share of end user dissatisfaction.  As I recall it was largely one very vocal group who were making the most noise about this and some of their dissatisfaction went well beyond the bounds of decency in terms of what was being said.  Line 6 staff are all human beings at the end of the day, and whilst it's fine to let them know what you think - good or bad from time to time, that should always be done with respect and clearly back then and occasionally since then respect as far as some of these people were concerned was not a concept they understood.  From a manufacturer's point of view, when as the manufacturer you are trying to do great stuff and trying your best to please people who are by their very nature hard to please and getting a good kicking for doing so, you are perhaps not going to want to be seen to be making any kind of definite promises about anything as the nature of computer type software development is that nothing can be guaranteed until it's been achieved.  Celemony the developers of Melodyne let the cat out of the bag about multiple note complex editing (i.e. being able to disassemble chords) a full year before it became a reality.  It took them a lot longer to make the application stable than I think they thought it would - so they too had a bunch of impatient customers. 

I think that is part of the reason Line 6 are somewhat reticent about becoming too deeply involved in public discussion about their products is because whether or not anything was actually promised, it can lead to expectations from users that something has been promised and of course we've seen exactly where that can lead, so they don't tend to hint or make suggestions of promises about releases or release dates.  It doesn't stop people asking however, but what I've outlined is probably at least part of the reason that Line 6 don't discuss their plans for their products publicly.

I don't buy the 'silence signals something suspicious' argument.  I think you'll find that where there has ever been a real problem (JTV-59 switch, X3L USB dropout for example). Line 6 have taken it on the chin, stepped up to the plate and been open and above board about it.  Where there was a perceived problem by some users over Fizz with the HD500, Line 6 took a lot of time to address that and on the whole those users who were affected I believe are happy with what was done.

As for L6 Experts or anyone else for that matter advocating Line 6 gear, I think you'll find that in general all the L6 Experts will try and give a fair, balanced and unbiased appraisal of what's on offer with Line 6 gear when an opinion is being sought.  We endeavour to be objective.  We try to point out things of interest either way and we might give examples of what we've personally found possible with the gear.  I think in general we  usually say that anyone interested in a piece of new kit should actually try it for themselves before making a purchase.  It is a Line 6 forum where people come to ask questions about Line 6 gear so the chances are strong that L6 experts and anyone else are going to talk about Line 6 gear.  We certainly don't 'not' talk about other gear.  I try hard not to be biased in my answers or feedback and I don't believe I am.  If you can show me something that does what the HD500 does better for my needs, sounds as good and is as easy for me to operate for the same money as the HD500 costs, then I'm going to be interested.  I like gear in general, so why wouldn't I be?

I think however that it is unlikley that anyone from Line 6 will tell you what is and what isn't being worked on due to current company policy.  I think you need to make any decisions about external or alternate gear based on knowing what you know now not what might or might not happen.  I cannot tell you anything other than that because I don't know either.  The HD Pro is brand new and probably not in that wide circulation yet.  That being the case I would suggest that it is probably worth being a little patient and worth waiting a little bit to see what might come up unless you are particularly desperate - I am not trying to be cryptic here BTW - I don't have knowledge about any proposed updates to share.

Regards

Nick



Re: Vote for some more transparency and input on future development
by toasterdude on 2011-09-18 04:50:57

gregr wrote:

I may be mistaken but I think Fractal Audio is just one guy.

The Eleven Rack used to have the name DigiDesign associated with it and now it's Avid.  I don't know any of that history; zip, zero, nada.

That makes Fractal even more impressive. Th4e OWNER and guy that designs the hardware and writes the code has a more of a presence online than any higher ups at Line 6. Apart from sporadic presence from Rich R, tech guys are the only L6 guys I ever see online.

Digi was a division of Avid. From some reports the only profitable division of Avid at some points. They now rolled the Digi brand into Avid.



Re: Vote for some more transparency and input on future development
by irishpriest on 2011-09-18 09:09:36

Holy crap Toaster! You pretty much word for word said what I was gonna say in response. When I read that I thought I had typed it and forgot I replied already.

Its definetely quite impressive what is going on over there with the Axe Fx 1-2. I would like to try one but I dont think I would ever buy one at the price they are asking. There is just way too many Mesa's, Soldano's, Engl's and Diezel's out there to spend that kinda money on a modeller. Maybe one day they the price of a used one will come down from the stratosphere and I'll pick one up.

Avid is going the way of American car companies and realizing it doesnt make sense to have 5-10 different names under the same roof anymore. All of their products are going to be Avid now. I believe there is one exception though. They bought out M-Audio not to long ago and I believe they are going to keep that name going and just pair all of there low end stuff like The Fast track pro's with Pro tools



Re: Vote for some more transparency and input on future development
by gregr on 2011-09-18 09:24:25

irishpriest wrote:

Its definetely quite impressive what is going on over there with the Axe Fx 1-2. I would like to try one but I dont think I would ever buy one at the price they are asking. There is just way too many Mesa's, Soldano's, Engl's and Diezel's out there to spend that kinda money on a modeller

What justifies the price of a modeler is that one can have the sounds of different amps like Mesa, Soldano, Engl and Diezel without having to buy all of them.



Re: Vote for some more transparency and input on future development
by fireballchaser on 2011-09-18 16:40:41

Why should they be more "open" about what they're going to be doing?  I didn't buy my HD500, xt, or 2.0 based on what they're going to do with them.  I bought them because, even though I knew there would be bugs, I liked the overall package.  Sure, they might come out with some other stuff in the future but who knows?  I don't know and I don't care either.  I like what I have now.  Would I like a few things to be changed?  Sure!  But I knew what I was getting into when I bought it and if I didn't know about something then it's my fault for not knowing before I bought it.  Sure, they'll probably come out with some new stuff in the future.  I might even buy it too!  But for now I'm just concentrating on what I've got. 

You don't buy a guitar and expect Gibson or Fender to come put new pickups in it in three months do you?  You check out a guitar, play it, and if you like it enough you buy it.  Why should a Pod be different than that?  I'm happy that it can be different and updated but I bought mine for what it is, not what it could be.



Re: Vote for some more transparency and input on future development
by spaceatl on 2011-09-18 17:52:11

Line 6 did have one of these more "open minded" folks working there at one time...but he got fired...

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Re: Vote for some more transparency and input on future development
by hansvaneven on 2011-09-19 05:59:57

Hi Nick and thanks for your open minded answers much appreciated

Yes, I visited the L6 booth just a few minutes before the my agora show, but had a very busy agenda at the US Music booth so hadn't too much time to talk with people there, I talked to someone (very kind btw) who said he was the product manager of the M9 line, but don't remember his name. Would have been cool to talk to you too there, maybe next year ? I used the M9 just for the delay and reverb FX on my Randall tube amp FX loop, which worked like a charm.

I agree with most of your points, but have a hard time when I'm told that I should have read the specs before buying something, hey, I'm 42, and have been buying amps, FX, synths since 28 years, sincerelly I know how to buy something, and spend often way too much time reading specs before buying it, but for music instruments, you have to put your hands on it first. And to be honest I would have probably bought the unit anyway, as I discovered the re-amping and EQ limitations later on. Also, with the past experience on other L6 products we have always had updates and often new features for free, so I was pretty sure the HD500 would have a future and more features probably, and for some reason I was right, because the last firmware already gave more models. Two things I didn't read however is about the re-amping and the EQ parameters not being included, and didn't read about it on these forums either. And it still doesn't make sence in my head to release a new pedal, which is marketing wise a replacement of the X3 live (even if it's not 100% the same, it DID replace the X3 on the L6 website, so please guys and L6 stop saying it's not a direct replacement of the X3, in that case you should have kept the X3 line alive, your adressing the same market and people with the HD as with the X3). So without the HD being available as VST plugin, I was dissapointed for the first time with a L6 product which for me is a half finished one, lots of possibilities but lacking some important features.

So should I have gone with something else, I don't think so, and am not really convinced that for example AXE FX II will do much better on the modeling side then the HD500 (and it's out of my budget for a FX, I'd rather buy a new tube amp).

I still hope there's a future for the HD500 and think that new updates will make the product better, but it would have been cool to have a small idea on when in the timeline we could expect some updates on this and also a good explication on why the HD500 doesn't support proper re-amping via USB.

My guess is that next update may be first for bass player as they have been ignored for a while now, but I'd just like to see some more amp/fx models and some missing features that have been present in older products. (hence the reason I don't understand that features like re-amping have been removed in the HD familly)

As for the comments on my feeling L6 Experts are fanboys, well, when I read your last mail, I have to excuse myself, you seem to be very open minded, but most of the time (but then I don't read all messages here, just chime in from time to time) when I read some form of critisism towards a product here, you can be sure that expert users will defend the product even when I have the feeling they're wrong. This is my impression, and maybe I'm wrong in their eyes, but that's still the way I feel

Anyway, I'm going to stop posting regarding this topic, have too much other things to do, thanks to all for jumping on this one and share your feelings,

Cheers,

Hans



Re: Vote for some more transparency and input on future development
by TheRealZap on 2011-09-19 06:24:15

i tend to accept the limitations on the device... because they are limitations...

what you can do within the limitations of the device is great....

like an electrical current... path of least resistance....

meaning if i can't do 2 amps or whatever because of DSP...

i find another way to get a tone i like...

i don't dwell on the limits or label them as design flaws...

i accept that it is the capabilities of the device...

if i needed something different i'd look for something different.

having said that i'm 100% supportive of your ideas and would love to see them implemented.

as long as they don't reduce the quality of the current offerings to "fix" the dsp limits that bother some users.

it's surprising to me to hear so much praise for the capabilities of the x3, when it was beat up all the time when it was the best they offered....

plastic casing, rigid routing, usb dropout, old models, etc etc etc

eventually that product matured, ironed out a few shortcomings (can't fix plastic via fw update )

i'm sure given time the HD line will evolve a bit... but in all honesty... the expectation should be what's currently offered... i know for a fact that they listen and try to deliver a bit beyond that expectation as time goes on... and it's honest requests for improvements like yours that help them decide what to work on...

everyone wins! so enough with the L6 Expert vs the world thing



Re: Vote for some more transparency and input on future development
by phil_m on 2011-09-19 06:40:43

Regarding the Experts supposedly defending the products against all criticism, I can't say that's really, true, although, I think I can see why it could come off that way. What I see from myself and others is a reluctance to just accept every criticism as valid. After all, there are quite a few people who comment here with criticisms that aren't necessarily true, i.e., "the HD500 is a piece of junk because it can't do...", and someone will come back and say, well, yes, "actually there is a way you can do that" or there is a reason this is like that. I don't see myself as defending Line 6 as much as simply trying to actually speak honestly about the products to the best of my ability.

Of course, I'm not against improvement or updates. I can't imagine anyone would be. I just think some of the frustration that is vented is a bit unwarranted. I do think Line 6 tries to take care of its customers, and I think that they do actually care what they think.



Re: Vote for some more transparency and input on future development
by AZGdude on 2011-09-19 08:25:18

Wow, that is one seriously long reply with lots of good information!

Unfortunately it is missing the one thing that most of us probably want. A little information directly from Line 6 on what issues are being work on for future updates. While the official Line 6 policy is to say nothing about future updates, they definitely don't always follow that policy. Prior to 1.31 they were much more open in their communications with customers (but only after the fizz issue blew up big in the Internet putting them in crises mode). Rick Renken also occasionally gives out tidbits of info or acknowledges problems on other forums. Today in the information age, more and more companies are finally waking up to the reality that openly communicating with your customers is actually better for business than ignoring them. Sadly Line 6 is not one of them. Giving away company secrets that will benefit the competition is very different from telling customers that you are aware of certain issues (chorus volume jump, excessive bass in 4x12 cabs, EQ, etc.) and are working on fixes in future firmware updates. Personally, the lack of information from Line 6 makes me less likely to do business with them in the future.



Re: Vote for some more transparency and input on future development
by Nick_Mattocks on 2011-09-19 10:25:55

Hans

Yep - I can see that I may appear to be saying you should have double checked the spec first without thinking about how that must seem quite a callous answer.  I sympathise - I really do.  I too have been caught out in the past with other things and maybe assumed that what I think is an upgraded model will do everything the original model did plus more and found that not to be the case.  Ouch! It smarts, but at the end of the day I should have really done my homework I guess.  I'm a bit older than you so I am probably a little more cautious in some respects when I get something new than I might have been 14 years ago - if that makes sense.  But I know exactly what you mean and how you feel because I've been there, done that and got the tee shirt with other things in the past (not Line 6 stuff BTW)

I do believe that the POD HD500 and the rest of the POD HD range will continue to receive updates just like pretty much every other Line 6 product has done before.  It's only just four months since a reasonably good update that was not just about fixes.  We've just seen the POD HD Pro released.  I can't say what might or might not be included in any potential future update or when an update might be released, but on past showing with other devices, I'm not going to write off the possibility of further updates at this realtively early stage in the POD HD range's lif-cycle.  I would think these things have quite a bit of potential yet....

Yes from a user perspective having an idea about the development timeline is cool certainly, but by publishing a timeline it leads to user expectation and frustration when things run late - this is software development at the end of the day and it's not always possible to foresee potential pot-holes in the road that will cause a problem.  As we've seen in the past when Line 6 have tried to be more forthcoming (Gear Box being a prime example) with dates, when those dates are missed a certain group of users went ape and called Line 6 out big time over the delays in a pretty nasty way in some cases.  I work in IT and it just isn't as clear cut as laying out a road map and saying 'we'll be at point A by Septermber 2011 and point B by December 2011' or whatever.  There's so many things that can cause things not to work out.  It's impossible to be that accurate with things that are in development.

Any company marketing something is going to tell you what it can do.  They are not going to say on the one hand as was said repeatedly on this forum at the very least by me and the other L6 Experts and Line 6 staff that the HD500 is not a direct replacement for the X3 Live right back to the beginning and then say 'oh by the way it doesn't do A and it doesn't do B'.  It is not and never was an extension in development of the POD Xx range.  Yes the X3 Live was discontinued at around the same time as the HD500 was released and I can see your point, but that still doesn't mean that the HD500 is a direct replacement for the X3L.

I am with Zap in that I would like to see your ideas implemented in the POD HD range too, but as Zap says, not at the expense of quality.  DSP resources are fixed and that's not something that can be changed.

The guy you saw at MusikMesse who said he was the Product Manager for the M9 (plus M13 and James Tyler Variax and Low Down and Spider Valve MkI and other stuff) was Rich Renken I'm 99.99% sure as he was the Product Manager for M9 and Rich was at the show for sure.

I try to be open minded and fair all the time. I think the other Experts do the same.  I speak as I find about Line 6 products and about their competitor's products sometimes too.  I try to be balanced with what I say.  I realise that being a Line 6 Expert User will naturally suggest to some people that I'm always going to blindly defend a product or I'm always going to say I think it's better than a similar product from manufacturer X.  However, I don't work for Line 6.  There is no company pressure on me or any of the other Line 6 Expert Users to say only good things.  In fact if there is an issue that we believe needs to be raised then part of the deal for us as Experts from Line 6's perspective is to speak up and say what we think - and we do.  However speaking for myself, I try to remain balanced, objective, polite and not to get too caught up in the emotional stuff whilst weeding out what I think the strengths and weaknesses might be.  Sometimes that's not easy

Anyhow - thank you for the debate. .I wish I had met with you at MusikMesse.  It would have been good to shake your hand and to discuss 'gear' related stuff in general

All the best.

Nick



Re: Vote for some more transparency and input on future development
by AZGdude on 2011-09-19 15:59:53

toasterdude wrote:

gregr wrote:

I may be mistaken but I think Fractal Audio is just one guy.

The Eleven Rack used to have the name DigiDesign associated with it and now it's Avid.  I don't know any of that history; zip, zero, nada.

That makes Fractal even more impressive. Th4e OWNER and guy that designs the hardware and writes the code has a more of a presence online than any higher ups at Line 6. Apart from sporadic presence from Rich R, tech guys are the only L6 guys I ever see online.

I just notices on TGP that Fractal just released firmware version 2 for the Axe-Fx II with several new amp models and a bunch  improvements. I find it somewhat funny (well maybe not funny) that in a few months Fractal has improved the Axe2 more than Line 6 has done in one year with the HD. This is especially amazing knowing how small Fractal is and how complex the Axe2 is compared to the HD. I wish L6 invested a little more resources into the HD. It would be a much better product with just a few minor fixes.



Re: Vote for some more transparency and input on future development
by ozbadman on 2011-09-19 16:16:35

The AXE-2 is based on the AXE firmware. The HD was completely started from scratch. I have both and they are better at different things. How long did it take Fractal to get the MFC-101 out?? I too am looking forward to any advances in the HD Series, but am glad I have what I have right now, and don't especially feel that Fractal pumps out these amazing product updates at an incredible pace. I've had my AXE for well over 18 months and haven't seen massive improvements in that time, nor would I expect to.



Re: Vote for some more transparency and input on future development
by Mr_Arkadin on 2011-09-19 16:28:24

Be aware though that all is not rosey over at the Axe FX forums - a thread like this would have been deleted, you would have been PMed to not start another thread like it and you might even be banned from posting at all. Charming and not particularly transparent.



Re: Vote for some more transparency and input on future development
by phil_m on 2011-09-19 16:29:35

Actually, I was just looking at the release notes for the 2.00 firmware, and the two new amp models are actually just different channels of amps already modeled in the Axe FX II... So I guess they don't count...

Seriously, they actually are.



Re: Vote for some more transparency and input on future development
by gregr on 2011-09-19 16:52:59

phil_m wrote:

So I guess they don't count...

That would be my opinion.



Re: Vote for some more transparency and input on future development
by AZGdude on 2011-09-19 17:34:37

And in the release prior to v2 that they also added 2 new amp models and a bunch of other enhancements and fixes. They may not all be brand new amps, but the point is they are rapidly developing the product unlike L6.



Re: Vote for some more transparency and input on future development
by AZGdude on 2011-09-19 17:42:29

Mr_Arkadin wrote:

Be aware though that all is not rosey over at the Axe FX forums - a thread like this would have been deleted, you would have been PMed to not start another thread like it and you might even be banned from posting at all. Charming and not particularly transparent.

I have heard of this occasionally happening over there. But in all honesty I have seen alot harsher criticism of Fractal (harsher than anything in this thread) posted over there and not be removed. So I don't think it  happens all that often.



Re: Vote for some more transparency and input on future development
by Mr_Arkadin on 2011-09-19 18:13:29

AZGdude wrote:

But in all honesty I have seen alot harsher criticism of Fractal (harsher than anything in this thread) posted over there and not be removed. So I don't think it  happens all that often.

Well I don't frequent there too much, but I have never seen any criticism, let alone a harsh one. Was there a specific thread you were thinking of (I can't see any but I just had a cursory glance)?



Re: Vote for some more transparency and input on future development
by phil_m on 2011-09-19 18:31:53

That is if you're lucky enough to actually get the product... Last I heard they were just filling orders for people who got on the waiting list in June right now. Firmware updates don't really mean much if you can't get the product.

Really, I don't have anything against Fractal, other than it seems too hoity-toity of a product for my tastes. But if you buy a boutique product, you expect a different level of service than when you buy a mass-market product. For a big product launch like the HD, I think Line 6 is doing OK. One thing to consider is that every firmware update brings on a whole other potential layer of support. And we're not talking about just one device in the HD line - there's 5. So there all these users with potential issues, and Line 6 has to be prepared to deal with them. It's a whole other business model that Line 6 is operating out of.



Re: Vote for some more transparency and input on future development
by AZGdude on 2011-09-20 12:11:38

phil_m wrote:

Really, I don't have anything against Fractal, other than it seems too hoity-toity of a product for my tastes.

So by your standards I guess anyone with a nicer Marshall, Mesa or Fender would be hoity-toity. God forbid they have a Bogner or a Dr Z or something



Re: Vote for some more transparency and input on future development
by gregr on 2011-09-20 12:14:30

...how about a DT50!?!



Re: Vote for some more transparency and input on future development
by phil_m on 2011-09-20 12:24:59

It's not really the price of the unit or the quality of it that bothers me. I like nice gear, within reason. I just think that at a certain point, people start getting gear more just because they can rather than because they actually need all the features it has. I lump the Axe FX with PRS guitars - to me, they come off like mid-life crisis guitar gear. I imagine the guys who have them driving around in their shiny convertibles with the top down and a baseball cap on to cover their bald spots. I'm not saying it's a fair thing, but that what I think when I see that either of those brands. Another way of saying it, I guess, is that see Fractal and PRS as stuff for high-maintenance guitarists.

I actually would very much like to get a Dr. Z amp. I've come pretty close to pulling the trigger on one before.

Fender and Marshall still have a very blue-collar or utilitarian ethos about them. Even Fenders most expensive offering are pretty straightforward.



Re: Vote for some more transparency and input on future development
by Mr_Arkadin on 2011-09-20 13:24:47

I hear you on the PRS guitars

Still trying to see any hyper-critical Axe FX threads though...



Re: Vote for some more transparency and input on future development
by gregr on 2011-09-25 16:41:49

Mr_Arkadin wrote:

Be aware though that all is not rosey over at the Axe FX forums - a thread like this would have been deleted, you would have been PMed to not start another thread like it and you might even be banned from posting at all. Charming and not particularly transparent.

I wouldn't be so certain that posts don't disappear from this forum (or even possibly disappear without being given the courtesy of an explanation through a PM).



Re: Vote for some more transparency and input on future development
by Mr_Arkadin on 2011-09-26 05:01:45

gregr wrote:

I wouldn't be so certain that posts don't disappear from this forum (or even possibly disappear without being given the courtesy of an explanation through a PM).

Really? Could you specify when this has actually happened as obviously it's difficult to see a post that's deleted, but I haven't seen any (apart from spam) that have then disappeared.

And I'm still waiting a link to these hyper-critical Axe threads. Seems a lot of people like to throw about comments as fact without any back-up.



Re: Vote for some more transparency and input on future development
by gregr on 2011-09-26 09:49:30

It happened to me and another member yesterday, sometime before I authored that post.

The content in your second paragraph is of no concern to me.



Re: Vote for some more transparency and input on future development
by Mr_Arkadin on 2011-09-26 10:35:30

gregr wrote:

The content in your second paragraph is of no concern to me.

Sorry, that was aimed at AZGDude, not you.




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