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Caution - Whiner Thread - When, Why, Why not, etc.
by cGil on 2011-10-26 21:24:58

Warning, I have that nasty GAS itch again.  Forwarned, forearmed (okay, really just two arms); but duly cautioned, and having gotten the obvious out of the way, let us now get on with the rabble rousing...

Dear Line 6.

Why you guys rigged speaker modeling in the HD300 and HD400 so it can't be totally disabled is beyond me; but that totally shoots down any consideration of getting one of those.  Too bad.  I was thinking about one of those to hold me over till what I really want comes along.   

The HD500, well, mine had one of the preferably unmentionable early adopter problems with the Blackface model, so I dumped it.  And I'm still not convinced enough that I wanna revisit that model.  Sorry, it's now a trust thing regarding the hardware on that model as well as the rest.  

The HD Pro is still too early to consider.  Besides, the HDPro and control pedal together are just too darn expensive for an early adoption when there are both tone and hardware quality trust issues at stake.  They're finally getting more stock out to the stores; but it's still gonna be some time before the dust even really begins to settle on whatever manufacturing issues may pop up.  Aside from being a single processor box with the same DSP overload issue as the HD500, that is.  I mean come on Line 6! Why are you tormenting us like this?  Give us the HD1000 DP (dual processor) and get it over with.  You know we need it and will cough up the spare change cuz we just gotta have it no matter what.  

Yeah, it's like that.  But I'm not finished!

Why won't you at least give us EQ's that live up to the concept and don't require a savant's mental juggling ability to relate to.  %'s instead of frequency Hz?   Please!   What's up with that madness?  We're guitar players and expect EQ's we can actually use.  Why wasn't that fixed a long time ago?

And then there's the issue of the utter lack of IR Speaker Modeling -alone- as a filter effect independent of amp modeling on or off; which is not just a nice idea, but an essential option for using an uncolored DI signal from a tube amp passed back through the HD on it's way to a mixer, etc.   Why can't you understand that we are freeking tired of being stuck with whatever sad speaker sim happens to come with the darn DI boxes.  And of course it'd also be a great benefit for recording.    Why Why Why won't you just give us an IR fx block and get that over with?   We know that you know that we want that!   For crying out loud, your formal feature request thing on this website seems to be more of a black hole than a simple circular file!  You gotta know we'd even pay for that option if it was the only way to get it!

And yes. it's getting really close to that time of year again.  So where, oh where, is the Pocket POD HD stocking stuffer?  Sure the HD model data is huge; but even if there was only storage room for 4 amp models on the Pocket POD HD, that'd be enough if we could setup and load whatever amp models and fx chains we want through HD Pocket PodEdit. 

And when's the next firmware update gonna happen.  Will it torment me enough to cut through all this whiny crapola and make me buy in again?  Are you guys asleep or what?   Sure seems like it!   Yes, the economy sucks everywhere.  Too bad, but that doesn't mean it's time for a nap.  Yes we know you're tired of us whining and it bores you into unconciousness; but we're guitar players and we need this stuff, and we've got GAS.   WAKE UP LINE 6. 

Gil...



Re: Caution - Whiner Thread - When, Why, Why not, etc.
by Rowbi on 2011-10-28 02:58:05

on those topics, I think L6 are already awake, as you're not the first to say some of those things.

remember that the product managers who choose what to change don't come on this support forum much (the L6 support techs have no say over what to update).

so fill in a product feedback form via the contact us link at the bottom of this page to make sure your new feature requests are seen by the right people.

Hope this helps

Rowbi

P.S. some of your comments made me smile... "a nasty GAS itch" lol



Re: Caution - Whiner Thread - When, Why, Why not, etc.
by TheRealZap on 2011-10-28 05:17:01

the hd300 and hd400 have the same amp models as the hd500....

by that reasoning... you shouldn't have considered them anyway....

and so does the HD pro and desktop.... so forget those as well...

oh wait... that issue was fixed in a firmware update...

so i guess if you can consider the hd pro... then you can consider the 500 again.

it's not a dsp overload issue... its a matter of them allowing you to use it to the max of its ability....

if you don't want the issue and would rather have them pre-define what you can and cant do....

then you need the 300/400 but apparently that isn't perfect for you either....

like everything else in life... nothings perfect... find what serves you best and move ahead.....



Re: Caution - Whiner Thread - When, Why, Why not, etc.
by Mr_Arkadin on 2011-10-28 06:03:12

I stopped reading after you used the word "cuz" - I really hate that non-word. I don't think you were adding anything new anyway as far as I could see.



Re: Caution - Whiner Thread - When, Why, Why not, etc.
by cGil on 2011-10-28 07:07:55

Thanks for pointing out my most overused lazy-typist factor.  Because it's true...  Be thankful I'm not into cryptic phone messaging, "cuz".        

Gil...



Re: Caution - Whiner Thread - When, Why, Why not, etc.
by DeanDinosaur on 2011-10-28 07:24:52

Many players are getting amazing results with any of the HD series. I bought the 300 first and recently moved to the 500. If you spend the time and forget about what people talk about in the message boards, you will have the chance to discover stunning amp simulations and trully beautiful sounds.  We all appreciate updates and improvements, but remember there are many more players who don't bother with these boards who are having a blast with the HD series. If you choose to wait until everything is updated to the level that all requests are addressed,

you're only wasting  precious time and missing on great tones. You know that updates are coming,but as it stands and for guitar tone firmware 1.3 in all the pod series is more than enough to get stellar tones. Seriously just go get the HD500 and start enjoing it, you know the updates are coming, who cares when? The updates might add some more variety or flavors, but nothing fundimentall.what are you waiting for? Impulse responses?  With the 500 you can record with speaker cab off and put your own impluse if you like. Ok you can't use impulses live, but the line 6 cabs are nice. Me personally, I never found an impulse response that made my HD sound better, all I found was new flavours, so my personal conclusion is "no more execuses, just play guitar and enjoy the great amps that are already there" if the updates come then its great, but until then I'm loving every minute I spend with my HD500 and I hate to have to spend more time tweeking as I think I already spend enough on that.

I put a request for improved EQ user interface (as the EQ themselves sound great, but hard to dial because of the percentage instead of knowing exactly what frequencies are being used), so again, get the 500 and put in your feature requests seems like the thing to do, otherwise you will be missing on a great reasonbly priced unit that can give you amazing guitar tones.



Re: Caution - Whiner Thread - When, Why, Why not, etc.
by cGil on 2011-10-28 07:34:36

Actually, I am considering the HD Pro.  And rather strongly it would seem, as I can't seem to resist coming back to this forum to read the posts/reviews/etc. 

Not the HD500, though.  Too many of 'em with inferior parts and switches falling off/apart/etc.  Not a good sign for having any hope that they'll last for 10 years, which is how long I would prefer to be using it before the next GAS attack (and fear of EPROM failure/data loss) forces me to go shopping again.

All this probably has something to do with why I keep flogging Line 6 to get their act together and put out a vastly superior product.   I tend to be dissappointed with merely good enough.  I want their best combined with the best parts and the best manufacturing quality control.  The whole triple whammy like that would give 'em the keys to owning the world. And I know they've got it in 'em to pull it off.  If they really wanted to, they could find a way to convince the penny pinchers to let 'em do exactly that.

Gil...



Re: Caution - Whiner Thread - When, Why, Why not, etc.
by cGil on 2011-10-28 07:51:32

Nope!  Already had an HD500.  It was a nice idea, but didn't meet my standards.  I've already got impeccable tone with my good old tube amp(s) and analog pedalboard rig.   I simply want more options, from something that meets my standards for tone quality as well as hardware quality.   Even the early firmware had the HD series coming darn close to fulfilling my needs for quality tones in general; with the BFDouble being the exception as it got thoroughly spanked by a Tech21 Blond.  I'm sure the newer firmware code made it far more competitive in that respect, but it's the other issues that are still holding me back.      

Gil...



Re: Caution - Whiner Thread - When, Why, Why not, etc.
by Mr_Arkadin on 2011-10-28 08:07:46

I don't get it - aren't you describing the Axe FX? As soon as Line 6 start building to the highest spec, add custom IRs etc. then the price point hits the Axe FX.

So you can either have a Pod HD that is amazing and comes close for a lot less money, or a Pod HD that does everything you want and is the same price as an Axe FX. If you don't mind paying a premium for a top of the line HD, then why not just get the Axe FX?



Re: Caution - Whiner Thread - When, Why, Why not, etc.
by jasonbogen on 2011-10-28 08:18:57

I have to say this.  I don't disagree that a feature request form should be filled out, but I really think that any product manager should be spending time their respective products forum.  The discussion that goes along with these requests is invaluable information on how their customers use their products, what their real needs are and why they are asking for it.  The discussions often have what could be very valuable insight and ideas on how the customers problems can be solved.  I am not saying they should spend the entire day reading every word, but it should be a regular part of their work week or even be done off hours as a typical above and beyond that in reality is expected from managers.  Honestly I think anyone working on the product should be reading, but if you "own" the product it is incomprehensable that you would not be reading this stuff with some regularity.



Re: Caution - Whiner Thread - When, Why, Why not, etc.
by silverhead on 2011-10-28 08:51:32

I can't say for sure, but I would be surprised if there weren't some internal communication within Line 6 between the tech support staff whose job it is to monitor these forums, and the product development staff. While the Product Feedback info goes directly to the product developers, I suspect they also receive info from the tech support folks who flag them with relevant threads in the support forums. Different people have different job responsibilities, but every company expects its employees in different departments to share relevant info.

What Rowbi says is true - the product developers don't come on this support forum much. That doesn't mean they don't look at the relevant threads that are probably flagged to them.



Re: Caution - Whiner Thread - When, Why, Why not, etc.
by spaceatl on 2011-10-28 08:56:40

You "seem" to be assuming that Line 6 PMs don't read the forum....seems wrong....Actually, I know it is...if that is what you are assuming...excuse me if it isn't...

Just because we don't hear from Line 6 does not mean anything....Guitar players like feedback, so I can see why folks think the Product feedback is a black hole...

Some might not agree that Line 6 develops on a closed platform, do not share IP and pretty much run silent on updates...your right to do so and complain about it...Rest assured Line 6 does listen...



Re: Caution - Whiner Thread - When, Why, Why not, etc.
by jasonbogen on 2011-10-28 09:54:54

No I am not assuming anything.  In fact this wasn't even directed specifically at the POD product manager or even Line 6.  I am giving my general opinion on how I think a product manager should be using a user forum for his/her product.  My message was just a response to all the messages I hear saying "enter that as a feature request, the product managers don't read this stuff".  I have heard that so many times and it just occured tome that if that is true, I think they are making a mistake.



Re: Caution - Whiner Thread - When, Why, Why not, etc.
by cGil on 2011-10-28 11:03:30

Bingo!  Well said.

Gil...



Re: Caution - Whiner Thread - When, Why, Why not, etc.
by AZGdude on 2011-10-28 11:49:09

+1 and lol.

I keep hoping they are finally going to fix all the deficiencies that the HD line shipped with a year ago and add some cool new amps and effects. But after nearly six months of hearing nothing but crickets I am starting to have my doubts if they are listening or care.



Re: Caution - Whiner Thread - When, Why, Why not, etc.
by ricksox on 2011-10-28 14:58:57

Let me put the question of whether or not our PM's read the forums. They absolutely do. Absolutely. A lot. They just don't post. Why? I don't know. Maybe they don't want to get into long debates and opinion type threads. After all, they're still working on other projects/products right?

Also, yes,l it's been nearly 6 months since we gave you guys 6 new amp models and a bunch of cool tweaky parms to play with on your PODs. 6 months. Do you think it's easy to code, test, find bugs, re-code, re-test, find more bugs, etc, etc? Do you think that's air your breathing? Hmmm.

morpheus2.jpg

My point is that we do listen. Very much. We actually have heated debates internally quite a bit about what features should be added to firmware updates based on feedback from the field etc. We do hear you guys.

I actually like this thread. I like the fact that you guys are talking about this stuff. This is what we need feedback wise so thank you for participating. I want you all to know that we really try to push out updates as fast as we possibly can despite the multitudes of other projects our programmers, dsp/firmware guys are juggling.

So thanks again guys. We love hearing from you.

Line6Miller



Re: Caution - Whiner Thread - When, Why, Why not, etc.
by cGil on 2011-10-28 17:21:21

No... Thank you!   Please understand that I have the deepest respect for the Line6 mystery men behind the curtain, as it were; and I am in genuine awe of what you guys do.   Wish I could say the same for the factories and penny pinchers that always find ways to screw up the best intentions, but that is what it is.  Still, this company must survive, and I understand that, too. 

However, what with all the whippersnappers out here constantly crying for more, better, easier, faster, etc.; the floggings will continue until moral improves.      Best you can hope for is to momentarily distract us with firmware updates.

And I still want a Pocket POD HD for Christmas! 

Now, as to the air...   Negative.   I am a meat byproduct.   The hotter the air, the quicker I spoil!   

Gil...



Re: Caution - Whiner Thread - When, Why, Why not, etc.
by meambobbo on 2011-10-28 19:14:42

Rick,

I'm definitely not going to join the whiner camp, although I do have a few greivances.  But to say we can't get some simple updates within 2 months, let alone 6, is absurd.

For instance, a lot of greivances have been made about EQ's.  Here are some quick solutions that wouldn't take many resources to handle, and would have a quick turnaround:

* 2 band parametric EQ effect (most of the code's already written)

* increase the headroom on the effects

* make a 5 band graphic EQ that uses the same frequencies as the Mesa Mark series

* display "frequency" in HZ rather than %

As far as the cabs go, external IR support would be nice, but a better idea might be to simply alter the frequency response on the 4x12 cabs so they're not vastly (and unrealistically) different.  The most obvious example of this is the Treadplate V30 4x12 vs. the XXL V30 4x12.  They both use the same speakers but one is the brightest and one is the darkest?  Yes, I know the cab will impact the tone, especially at high volumes, but I'm calling BS - somebody messed up something.  The XXL is unusably dark.  No recording of a mic'ed XXL cab I've ever heard is that dark.  The Treadplate needs more low end and the XXL needs much less.  I end up having to do this in all my patches, and it's annoying.  We're talking about a day's work per cab at most.

Another possibility is to add a SM 57 mic option that's in between the "on axis" and "off axis" settings used.  I can't tell which current mic is preferable - I'm looking for a middle-of-the-road option here.  Maybe that's just me though...and I would imagine that's more work than the things listed above.

Here's another idea - have the "amp volume" knob adjust the patch's volume level AT THE END OF THE SIGNAL CHAIN.  I always use EQ effects, which have poor headroom, after the amp, so I have to keep this setting low, and use a convoluted signal chain with the mixer and a Studio EQ boosting the volume at the end of the chain.  I imagine that a lot of users are clipping post amp effects by turning up the amp volume not realizing why their tone sounds like crap and just thinking the Pod HD sucks.  I don't see any good reason to have it boost/cut at the location in the signal chain that it does.

To be frank, I've given up hoping for such simple changes.  I've been lobbying for quick, simple changes, and discussing some of the more apparent design flaws (IMO) with the device for a while now.

Line 6 should commit to making more frequent firmware releases implementing a few little things here and there, rather than trying to implement a bunch of changes at a time.  This would not only quell the masses by demonstrating Line 6 isn't "napping" but also be easier to test and immediately increase positive user experiences, increasing sales.

Most of the "problems", other than running out of DSP, can be worked around, so I'm fine with the unit as is.  The real problem is that most people, like Gil don't realize the issues can be worked around, or they don't want to take the time to work at it, so they never get to enjoy the unit.



Re: Caution - Whiner Thread - When, Why, Why not, etc.
by cGil on 2011-10-28 20:38:02

Dude!  Check your "tude"!   And perhaps take a hint from your own post regarding your issues with the cabs and mics and update complexity.   

FWIW, my own battle of the tweaks to the BFDouble model lasted a couple of hard fought months through a couple of firmware updates before I gave up on it and traded in my HD500.   And that happened just a day or two before it was even announced that 1.3 was heading our way, I might add.  I never did get to play with the new deeper tweaks of sag and bias settings; although I will most likely forever have my own doubts about whether those would've even helped resolve the issues and frustrations with the particular HD unit that I had at the time.   It was probably just a bad unit that slipped through. 

So don't take it personally, and please don't make it personal.  Line6 is reading this thread; but if it devolves into personal attacks, they'll surely move on and ignore whatever other genuine jewels of technical suggestions that may yet be expressed here.    Including your own suggestions, which are good ones, I should add.  

Gil...



Re: Caution - Whiner Thread - When, Why, Why not, etc.
by meambobbo on 2011-10-28 22:21:15

did my post have too much tude?  i wasn't try to cut down line 6.  i think the pod hd is incredible, especially for its price.  i'm even generally satisfied with the amount of DSP onboard, which seems to be the most common complaint, which can't even be addressed since I'm sure they don't want to further divide the HD line.

95% of the unit is perfect.  the last 5% is easily fixable, but I am not even sure the problems are ACKNOWLEDGED, let alone being worked out.  That's what bugs me.  These are SIMPLE things that would really help people dial in better sounds without having to play experimenter/debugger when setting up a patch.  To date, I haven't seen one Line 6 employee even show a shred of sympathy.  we are just herded like lemmings to the event horizon of a black hole called the product feedback/feature request form.

and i'm just not buying the excuses.  i may not work in audio DSP for a multi-national company, but I am in software, and if I told my boss I need 2 months, let alone 6, to implement the things I mentioned above, I'd be UNEMPLOYED.

This is why my number one feature request is a devkit to write custom firmware.  I think Line 6 could learn alot about how quickly quality development can occur on their platform.  they could also learn some things about communicating with their user base, development lifecycles, beta testing, and consumer satisfaction.



Re: Caution - Whiner Thread - When, Why, Why not, etc.
by cGil on 2011-10-29 04:09:05

Well, this is the "whiner thread".     But yeah, you make a valid point.  I did my bench tech apprenticeship (complete with daily bashings) under the tutelage of a couple of assembly code masters back in the late 80's, so I totally agree.   These POD HD's would be so much better if they would respond to our requests and needs with more frequent updates.   I mean, come on!  It's a midi device that doesn't communicate so well in a midi world?  You'd think they would've at least figured that out by now!

I suspect Line6 needs to hire a few more talented coding teams to handle all the different pies they have in their oven(s).   After hearing about Apple's success due to Steve Jobs' focusing Apple on a few great products rather than attempting a gazillion pretty-good products, I have to wonder if that's why things aren't so grand as we had hoped they would be with the HD's. 

Frankly, I also believe they could directly compete on that higher level with the AxeFX gear.  If they wanted to. It's a real shame they (or whoever's yanking the chains) don't believe in themselves enough to make it worth the effort, because I'd love to see that happen and play with the great things that would come from it.  

Gil...



Re: Caution - Whiner Thread - When, Why, Why not, etc.
by DeanDinosaur on 2011-10-29 06:50:03

cGil wrote:

Frankly, I also believe they could directly compete on that higher level with the AxeFX gear.  If they wanted to. It's a real shame they (or whoever's yanking the chains) don't believe in themselves enough to make it worth the effort, because I'd love to see that happen and play with the great things that would come from it.  

Gil...

Sure they can compete but why should they? They already know their target market very well and it's not those who want to spend 2k or more on a piece of gear. The axe fx market is a very small market and not very lucrative. At line6's target market, they are currently untouchable with the POD HD by anyone. Why doesn't Fractal the maker of the AXE try to compete with line 6 at their target market that would be nice too!!  Kemper profiling AMP is out soon and it's around $1800 in direct competition with AXE FX.

When I got my HD300 first (I have moved the 500 recently), the number one reason was, it was affordable and at the same time I easily justified the purchase when comparing it with what's out there. Here's what I had to consider and I believe most of those who buy the HD go through:

1-Amplitube 3 Cost is $349 software for a controller plus software it's $1049 and with a laptop to play live, you’re talking another $500 so that's $1500 to do what the HD300 can do. Still all that didn't matter much to me because to my ears the HD Models are clearly superior to Amplitube.

2-Same story with Revalver or any software

3-Digitich RP series: I owed one of these and again the modeling is no where near POD HD

4-AXE FX: I tried the models in the AXE FX and the Deluxe, JTM45, Divided by 13, sounded better on the POD (again to my ears), the Park 75 is the best Marshall Sound For Vintage Hard Rock and early metal that I heard.

I was in the same position you're in and I bought the HD based on an educated consumer mind set. Even the HD300 at around $300 can get you modeling that is comparable to the AXE FX at 2k. You choose to wait until it meets your standards and I think in a couple of years it probably will as I envision HD Pod Farm that hopefully will work with the HD line Hardware plus similar number and variety as the X3, but by then you have missed on the fun for two years! I'm sure your tube and analog pedal board will keep you busy, but not at 2 or 3 in the morning. I have vintage tube amps that date back to the 60s and some have one or two knobs but they sound better than most amps of today, and I can get my pod HD500 to sound just as satisfying and so could you.

The main point of what I'm trying to say is that most of those who buy the HD is because of the great modeling and not because being fans of Line 6, and 2nd Line 6 does listen to its customers they did bring in the Uber in an early firmware version and called it Elektrik. I thought that was hilarious, I laugh every time I think of that because I think it's almost an inside joke for those who frequent the message board since everyone else will think that Elektric was a new Line 6 original when in reality it was a screw-up! I personally didn't care for it and Like the Uber in 1.3 version because it's less noisy, but for a heavier higher gain the Elektrik, which was brought back as a direct response to customers’ requests, is really good and I have some use for it.  I'm not going to beat up on these guys in line 6 just because I bought their product. They seem like a bunch of nice guys that actually listen to their customers, better than any guitar company that I have experienced.




Re: Caution - Whiner Thread - When, Why, Why not, etc.
by Nick_Mattocks on 2011-10-29 08:21:02

cGil wrote:

Well, this is the "whiner thread".     But yeah, you make a valid point.  I did my bench tech apprenticeship (complete with daily bashings) under the tutelage of a couple of assembly code masters back in the late 80's, so I totally agree.   These POD HD's would be so much better if they would respond to our requests and needs with more frequent updates.   I mean, come on!  It's a midi device that doesn't communicate so well in a midi world?  You'd think they would've at least figured that out by now!

I suspect Line6 needs to hire a few more talented coding teams to handle all the different pies they have in their oven(s).   After hearing about Apple's success due to Steve Jobs' focusing Apple on a few great products rather than attempting a gazillion pretty-good products, I have to wonder if that's why things aren't so grand as we had hoped they would be with the HD's. 

Frankly, I also believe they could directly compete on that higher level with the AxeFX gear.  If they wanted to. It's a real shame they (or whoever's yanking the chains) don't believe in themselves enough to make it worth the effort, because I'd love to see that happen and play with the great things that would come from it.  

Gil...

Gil

I hear your frustration and I can understand your perspective, but I don't think you currently own a POD HD500 do you?

Not knocking you if you don't, but things have moved on a lot from the early firmware version I believe you tried out a little while back as a relatively early adopter and you made a decision that it wasn't for you at the time and sent your unit back, which is fine too.  However if you haven't tried an updated HD500 for yourself with the current firmware you really should, just to see/hear what changes were made to the amp models along with Deep Editing Parameters and which are pretty much proven to help those who were experiencing some 'fizz' problems (I never had any issue with fizz but accept that some users genuinely did).

The Apple analogy is a double edged sword   I understand your point.  Yes they have some technically nice devices (iPad, iPhone, iPod all of which I have) etc... but Apple being Apple have put some VERY frustrating and deliberate blocks in the way of proper integration with other systems and have very much adopted a 'nanny' culture which gets very much in the way of flexibility.  I find Apple kit mostly usable and easy, but some potentially very useful aspects of their products are deliberately hobbled (no Adobe Flash for instance).  I actively dislike Apple PCs and the Apple OS because compared to the way I like to work (i.e. flexibly) but can understand why some users find it easy.   Lots of nice ideas that are nearly but not quite implemented properly IMO. I'm really not a big fan of Apple's vice like grip on what their users are 'allowed' to do with their very expensive devices.  I am a big boy.  I want to use any device I own in the way I want to use it (within its physical capabilities). 

Apple is obviously hugely successful right now and much bigger in corporate land than Line 6 is.  They have done that by diversifying out of just making computers (how many variants of the iPhone, iPod and iPad are there out there?  Quite a few actually).  They have successfully convinced a large part of the world's buying public that Apple is the name to go with and due to fantastic marketing skills they have managed to make their products highly desirable and to stimulate the G.A.S. buds in their buying public, but a lot of that is just pure marketing hype which has snowballed very profitably for the company

In contrast a device like the POD HD500 may have a few limitations, but the device is most definitely highly flexible and more so than any other similar device in the same price bracket - and remember the Axe FX II is about 4.5 times the price of the HD500. 

I don't know really how many of us need to state that Line 6 DO indeed listen to their customers and they DO make changes based on the feedback they get, where doing so is viable and when doing so doesn't break something else in the process.  Proper product development takes time and these guys often have parallel product developement to co-ordinate at the same time - all of which needs to be tested as thoroughly as possible before release to the general public.

I would definitely not assume that the product development teams have been sitting around doing nothing over the last six months which involves the POD HD500.  In fact I would not make assumptions about anything given that 'we' collectively don't actually know what if anything might be coming down the pipe right now?  For all 'we' know, some or all of the things that you've highlighted in this thread as being desirable may well be on the way    Like you I await the next firmware release with anticipation and no doubt a little bit of drool based on what 'might' be in it....

Depending on which viewpoint you choose to adopt (and there are a number of viewpoints you could choose to adopt - each of which might give a diiferent impression) with the POD HD series, it could be argued that the POD HD is competing very well with higher priced products in terms of sales and features per $.  And who is to know what is or isn't in line 6's collective mind about future products based on the POD HD family?

It's always good to throw out a thread like this one because it does provoke good discussion, so thanks for doing that



Re: Caution - Whiner Thread - When, Why, Why not, etc.
by cGil on 2011-10-29 08:55:30

No need to thank me.  I may have kickstarted this thread, but I'd never consider "mine".  All who participate make it what it is, so a "thank you" from me to all of you is more in order.    I may, however, be the bozo on the bus to blame for getting the harsh/fizz/digital clipping thread locked up, so I won't even pretend that I'm some kind of angel. 

And you're right.  At the moment, the only marginally digital things I have to play with at the moment are a Tech21 DoubleDrive X3 and Boost RVB.  So I am missing out, and I do miss it.   And I still miss my former Lex G2's envelope-follower-controlled panners and phasers, etc.  I sure wish Line6 would include something along those lines.

As to the Apple/AxeFX paradigm or whatever the correct word for it is, who knows.  Even Apple may be realizing they've been missing out on an entire market segment.  The following news article popped up this morning, and it gave me food for thought.   

http://news.yahoo.com/behind-numbers-samsung-passes-apple-phones-215143044.html

Gil...



Re: Caution - Whiner Thread - When, Why, Why not, etc.
by gregr on 2011-10-29 10:14:38

meambobbo wrote:

* make a 5 band graphic EQ that uses the same frequencies as the Mesa Mark series

Hopefully this will help in the meantime:

47% frequency is the magic number to give you 750Hz (the list in your guide is a bit off).  Assuming you want a symmetric V then adjust the Q to taste.  Use a higher value to get Petrucci's setting (just admit it: that's what you're looking for ).  Do not set the Lows above 50, and be careful with the highs.

I've spent many hours going back and forth between my HD500 and my Quad preamp, with much of the time dedicated solely to the EQ and am 100% confident about this advice.

...still, a better graphic is critically important.  I recommend at least 7 bands (preferably 10) that is focused more on the midrange like the Boss EQ-7 rather than straight octaves like the MXR, even if this means a non-geometric progression.

Since this thread has Line 6's ear: Shame on you for name-dropping the MXR 10-band EQ!  They make a 6-band that is far more useful than the graphic EQ in the HD series.  I guess a bit more honesty just doesn't have the same marketing impact, does it?



Re: Caution - Whiner Thread - When, Why, Why not, etc.
by AZGdude on 2011-10-29 11:18:38

+1

Add me to the list that would prefer a few smaller updates that address some major shortcomings sooner than one big update that addresses everything at once, but takes a year to arrive.

I also wish Line 6 learned a little from Apple and made fewer incredibly  complete and well thought out products than a whole bunch of good enough products.



Re: Caution - Whiner Thread - When, Why, Why not, etc.
by gregr on 2011-10-29 11:37:45

FWIW, I really do like the HD500 and don't really expect perfection.  Realizing that it's kinda pointless to try to nail some particular tone, specifically, I can get a very good array of sounds from it.  I just think it should be far simpler than having to use two or three EQs as well as other stomps in order to get it to do something that none of the amps modeled can do.  Having a more versatile EQ and a couple more medium and high-gain amp models to fill the gaping voids that currently exist, along with a decent noise gate and generic compressor with all the proper controls would go a long way.  As an example, I see little reason for a huge array of compressors when one compressor with attack time, release time, threshold, compression ratio and gain will pretty much give you everything.



Re: Caution - Whiner Thread - When, Why, Why not, etc.
by meambobbo on 2011-10-29 12:27:01

100% agree.  I'm not sure I have a single patch with less than 3 EQ's.  I usually have 4-5.  I only use the tube comp for compression, because it seems the most transparent on the actual tone, yet it's definitely not configurable enough.  I don't need modelled compression pedals - I need ONE GOOD compressor.



Re: Caution - Whiner Thread - When, Why, Why not, etc.
by meambobbo on 2011-10-29 12:42:49

HA! I usually use 46%, which my ear tells me is that 750 HZ honk.  I never felt my initial research was correct, so I trusted another user for the values, which seemed to be correct to me; but I never independently verified them.  If you have a full range of values, please let me know.

I used to have a Quad myself - I always laugh whenever anyone says for Line 6 to model a Mesa Mark II - IV.  Between the pre-distortion EQ controls, and all the pull shifts, etc, any amp model can only cover a small fraction of the ground you can get out of the actual unit.  I would think Line 6 would use the bass/mid/treble/presence as post-distortion EQ, but the actual amp's 5 band EQ fits very poorly into those 4 knobs.

On my Petrucci tones, I usually boost the lows, but I also have a Studio EQ where I cut with low freq at 75 HZ.  Then I also boost the lower mids around 300 - 450 HZ to keep the warmth balanced against the low end.  I might be overcomplicating it, but I'm satisfied with the results.

I agree about a larger-band graphic EQ.  I'm very curious if the effects have a maximum numer of parameters.  I'm not sure any of the effects have more than 6 parameters.  I don't know if they would fit in Edit if they did.  If 6 is the max, that's a shame.  I've brought this up a couple times, but haven't gotten any word whether it is a constraint or not.



Re: Caution - Whiner Thread - When, Why, Why not, etc.
by cGil on 2011-10-29 13:34:27

Like the Keeley 4 knob compression pedal?  No coloring of the tone at all with that one, just the most perfectly transparent touch of compression I've ever had the true pleasure of using to make everything sing like never before. In spite of having 4 knobs to tweak like the CarlMartin compression/limiter, the Keeley comp is ridiculously easy and quick to dial in. That's the one Line6 should regret not including in the HD's tool kit of fx. 

When I get another HD, I won't be giving up my Keeley, no matter what.  I'd rather just upgrade to a supersize pedalboard to park all that stuff on.   I've also become dependent on the accuracy and display of my Peterson Classic Stomp tuner; so that's yet another thing Line6 should definitely consider cloning, or I'll never be able to part with that pedal, either.  So much my feeble attempts at downsizing, huh?     

Which reminds me, does anybody know if the Voodoo Labs Pedal Power Plus2 has enough current available to power an HD500?  I can't find my owners manual for the PPP2, and the Line6 faq was kinda vague regarding optional HD-series power sources anyway.  

Gil...



Re: Caution - Whiner Thread - When, Why, Why not, etc.
by cGil on 2011-10-29 13:54:43

Since you brought up v30 cab tone issues earlier, I though you might get a kick out of this Marshall shootout video. All the various Marshall amps are recorded using the same cab, mic, guitar, etc.; and they all sound suspiciously similar.   Except for the Marshall Ministack at the end, which is still kinda sick they even included it if you ask me. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9zAWCDl5MY

Gil...



Re: Caution - Whiner Thread - When, Why, Why not, etc.
by gregr on 2011-10-29 14:00:23

They could model LD2 Yellow in the TriAxis (I also have one of these), where they would only have to figure out how to combine that preamp's Gain and Drive controls into the single Drive control (though sometimes I really wish the HD500 Drive and Volume controls could be used to stage gain in some preamp models, and balance preamp/poweramp drive in full amp models (leaving the volume level as a menu parameter).

I have mentioned modelling those particular Mark amps, but have also requested that some of the shift functionality be honored.  Perhaps Channel 3 of the Mark V is a slightly better alternative than the TriAxis since it is even more straight forward.  With that, I wouldn't be concerned trying to get the Extreme mode and the Normal/Bright switch might be able to be realized by extending the range of the treble control.  Whatever the case, the tone controls should be pre-distortion and the model be combined with a well-designed EQ block in the post-amp position.  If I were allowed to choose only one Mark variety (or single mode from Channel 3 of the Mark V), I would probably go with the Mark IV.  If I got to choose two new amp models then I would opt for the Mark IIC+ and also have the SLO100 for it's smooth character with enhanced mid-range in place of the Mark IV.

Back on the EQs, I'm getting by OK with two parametrics, one to notch 750Hz as well as provide low-pass to sound more natural and the other to boost whatever frequency is 74% (Q=60) for leads; both in the post-amp position, of course.  The studio EQ after the parametric with boosted the lows is a good idea, since it can really get out of hand when playing through a real stack.




The information above may not be current, and you should direct questions to the current forum or review the manual.