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JTV59 Alternate Tuning - Still Hear Standard String
by bmcmanus on 2011-10-30 13:44:25

I am trying to generate alternate tunings for a Dreadtop acoustic model - DADGAD, capo 5 and capo 3.  I built the three models in Workbench (v1.72) and assigned them to CUSTOM model positions.  For each, I generated the appropriate alternate tuning, and selected "ENABLE" at the bottom of the Workbench edit screen, then saved the file and SYNCed the guitar.

When I select the models on the guitar (using the MODEL tuning switch position), for the strings that are not tuned to STANDARD I still hear the standard tuning coming through behind the alternate tuning.  I do not have a 12-string model selected (I receive errors when I try to click on any of the alternate tuning areas specific to 12-string).

The sound appears to be distorted, with the maj7, maj6, or maj5 sounding along with each alt-tuned string.  I tried generating a 12-string alt tuning a month or so ago, and ran into the same problem.  I was told (in a separate discusion) that "non-standard" (not Line6 generated) alternate tunings are not available on 12-string models (which is itself a little odd, since I can use the DADGAD tuning switch position, but cannot associate a DADGAD alt tuning in the MODEL position??), only weird tunings that can be achieve by "detuning".  This sounds identical to that problem.

What am I doing wrong?  I know this can't be correct - I find no other discussions that indicate a problem.  Help!

For reference, I have attached the capo3 model file.  Perhaps someone else can load it and tell me if it works for them.  Maybe this is a problem with the guitar.

Thanks,

Bud



Re: JTV59 Alternate Tuning - Still Hear Standard String
by bmcmanus on 2011-10-30 13:45:27

Correction - the discussion board would not allow me to attach the model file.



Re: JTV59 Alternate Tuning - Still Hear Standard String
by rdoughty46 on 2011-10-30 21:29:55

I am having the same problem with my 59, sounds tinney when you enable the capo setting, not matter which guitar model you select, or the pickups you choose. Only thing that works is to put the capo setting in one of the alternative slots. Sucks I know.



Re: JTV59 Alternate Tuning - Still Hear Standard String
by ozbadman on 2011-10-31 00:05:27

You should only hear the alternate tuning, not the original standard tuning. Are you using a VDI cable to send your tone to an HD500 (instead of a 1/4" cable)? If so, make sure you only have Variax Ch1 as an input. The HD500 is designed to allow you to use both the Mags and the Modelling at the same time, so you have to configure which you want to use, or both at the same time. Variax Ch 2 is the mags, which will still be in standard tuning of course. Also, make sure you're on the latest firmware on both the JTV and the HD500 (if you are using an HD500).



Re: JTV59 Alternate Tuning - Still Hear Standard String
by edstar1960 on 2011-10-31 04:07:12

I have not tried this with the JTV yet - but I had set up alternate tunings under Workbench for my Variax 700 and some of them did not sound that great but I understand that was down to lack of processing power so to apply the altered tuning the processor had to use less cycles on the actual model, so you lose quality, however with the JTV we have increased processing power so I am surprised that this is still an issue.

I wonder whether this is just a continuation of that same issue? The JTV is designed to apply altered tunings dynamically - so it takes a modelled sound and then applys processing to create altered tunings when you adjust the altered tune knob to a particular setting.  I wonder whether this extra processing is done in a separate processor and therefore you do not lose any quality of the original model.  However, if you set up a new model with altered tuning in Workbench and then store it in a custom bank setting, then when you play it you are only using the processing power for the modelled side, which again probably has to work harder to get the alternate tunings and therefore loses quality on the actual modelled sound - hence why you think it sounds tinney. But remember the JTV will still allow you to take that custom alt tuned model sound and then apply a dynamic altered tuning to it - which will then be using the extra processing power available on the JTV. So is that how it works?

If it does, then I guess if you want the best quality altered tuning processing, you need to save your custom models from workbench in standard tuning, and apply a custom altered tuning dynamically using the  ALT TUNE knob, just as rdoughty46 said above.  That way you get the best model sound and the best altered tuning sound.

I know several people have asked why we can't save the ALT TUNE value along withe MODEL value in a POD patch, so that when you select the POD patch, you get the guitar model in the tuning you want with the press of one button.  Maybe that is something that is coming in a future firmware update - and it would then address this issue - lets hope so! 



Re: JTV59 Alternate Tuning - Still Hear Standard String
by bmcmanus on 2011-11-01 12:13:14

Oz...man;

I agree that I should hear only the alternate tuning, but somehow the standard string sound is leaking through.  At first I thought I was hearing the sound actually emanating from the string (acoustically), but I checked it with headphones, and it is appearing in the output.

I am using a VDI cable through a PodXT Live.  I've also tried it using only the 1/4" jack - same problem.

Replacing one of the provided tunings with an alternate will not achieve my purpose.  I need to be able to change the tuning from the XT pedals, which means I have to create a new guitar model with the desired tuning, and keep the guitar tuning knob in the MODEL position.  This works fine (although I'm rapidly eating up my available models...), except for the bizarre sound of the alternate tunings.

Do I need to open a case with support on this matter?

Thanks to everyone for their comments and suggestions.

Best Regards,

Bud



Re: JTV59 Alternate Tuning - Still Hear Standard String
by edstar1960 on 2011-11-02 07:04:17

Hi Bud,

Can you record this problem from the direct outs on the XT Live? If you can then it will prove that the guitar is faulty and needs to go back to Line6 to be looked at and repaired. 

If you can't capture the problem with a direct line into a digital recorder - then that points at the problem being caused because you can still hear the acoustic strings over the altered output - believe me this can happen when the amp you are using is not loud enough or your headphones are not loud enough to cover any external noise. I can still hear the acoustic strings sometimes when I am using my closed back headphones and an altered tuning because I don't have the volume up very high.

Capturing the direct output on a recording will prove it one way or another, so at least you will know if the guitar is faulty or not and can decide on what to do.  If you prove the guitar is faulty then just phone Line6 and they will take care of you. Use the :Contact Us linkwhich you can find  at the bottom of every page on their website for the correct number.

Good luck.

Best Regards


Eddie



Re: JTV59 Alternate Tuning - Still Hear Standard String
by ozbadman on 2011-11-02 09:35:15

+1 to edstar

Also, make sure you are on v1.71 firmware on your JTV. I must admit, I haven't tried using new alternate tunings in the MODEL position on the JTV, and I suspect not many people have.



Re: JTV59 Alternate Tuning - Still Hear Standard String
by TheRealZap on 2011-11-02 09:38:39

oddly, i had some string audible artifacts when i got my 59... updated to 1.71 still had it...

downgraded to 1.70, it was gone... updated back to 1.71 everything was perfect...

i downloaded the files and flashed from files...

anyway something to try... worked for me.



Re: JTV59 Alternate Tuning - Still Hear Standard String
by laelamiles on 2011-11-02 10:53:29

TheRealZap wrote:

oddly, i had some string audible artifacts when i got my 59... updated to 1.71 still had it...

downgraded to 1.70, it was gone... updated back to 1.71 everything was perfect...

i downloaded the files and flashed from files...

anyway something to try... worked for me.

What he said.  Same thing happened to me.



Re: JTV59 Alternate Tuning - Still Hear Standard String
by bmcmanus on 2011-11-03 04:25:48

Thanks for all the ideas.  So far, no joy.  I tried the downgrade/upgrade procedure twice (once with files, once online), but the problem remained through all versions.

I tried recording via the PodXT USB port.  Interestingly, the audio was slightly distorted, as though a smaller level of standard string is leaking through, but it wasn't as prominent as when using a 1/4in output from the Pod.  Unfortunately, some unrelated hardware/software problems with my recording gear prevents me from recording via 1/4in at this time.  I'll be working on that this weekend, and if possible, post both wav files to this forum (assuming the forum will let me...).

As a curious incidental matter, I also discovered that I can no longer connect to my JTV using the Variax USB adapter.  The PC recognizes the adapter, but not the guitar that's plugged into it.  I can still connect to the guitar using the Pod, but not the standard adapter that was supplied with the guitar.  I wanted to try the downgrade/upgrade procecdures without the Pod, on the outside chance that the Pod was somehow affecting the transfer.  Is this a known issue?  I may need to open a separate case.



RE: JTV59 Alternate Tuning - Still Hear Standard String
by Line6Hugo on 2011-11-03 12:16:21

Bud,

If re-installing the flash memory on the JTV does not help this problem, it looks like it would need to be serviced. We would need to set up and RMA for you and get it sent to us for inspection and repair.

If you would like to go this route, I can open a support ticket for you to get this serviced with us.

Also, when using the USB Workbench interface, you must have a 1/4" cable plugged into the jack of the JTV guitar to 'power on' the guitar so the interface recognizes that it is connected.

Regards,

Line6Hugo



Re: JTV59 Alternate Tuning - Still Hear Standard String
by ozbadman on 2011-11-03 23:23:49

I would triple and quadruple check that it really isn't just you acoustically hearing the standard tuning. Every single report I've seen of this so far has turned out to be the guitar not turned up loudly enough, or the headphones not being acoustically sealed.

i.e.: Crank it up and see if you still hear the standard tuned strings. I suspect you won't.



Re: RE: JTV59 Alternate Tuning - Still Hear Standard String
by sfeinstein on 2011-11-13 07:25:08

What was the outcome of this issue? Did the guitar need to be reserviced? And it if it did, did it fix the issue?

Steve

New JTV-69 owner



Re: RE: JTV59 Alternate Tuning - Still Hear Standard String
by bmcmanus on 2011-11-15 15:28:23

Well...

The problem is still here.  After the investigations I've done, I've found that the problem kinda' is and kinda' ain't what I thought it was.   I'm on the road now, with limited capacity to do much more research or recording.  Here's what I have:

*  I recorded the open strings in standard tuning, in the "DADGAD" position, in DADGAD alternate tuning (assigned to model), and capo3 and capo5 alternate tunings.  What I've found, in general, is NOT the standard strings leaking through (score 1 for ozbadman).  On the strings that have been changed in the alternate tuning (including the DADGAD setting on the tuning knob), a "rough, crackly edge" surrounds the tone of the string.  It sounds much like the distortion I've heard with some extreme or poor-quality pitch-correction.  The effect seems to be more pronounced on the high strings, and with greater distance from standard, i.e., the capo5 is worse than the two high strings in DADGAD.

I'd like to post the recordings, but they are in wav format, and that is apparently not allowed on this site.  I could probably find some way to change them to mp3, but the audio quality would not be as good, and after all, that's what my problem is.  Maybe I'll change the suffixes and post them as video files or something.

*  One curious phenomenon: in the "DADGAD" tuning knob position, every time I pluck the high "D" string, about 1/2 second later, I hear the standard "E" string sound leaking through in the recordings (oops, ozbadman, subtract 1/4 point).  This happens consistently.  The tone of the E is clear, and that is the only string I've heard it on.  It ONLY occurs when using the DADGAD position on the tuning knob. When using DADGAD alternate tuning I generated in the Model position, I hear no E string leaking through.

My current schedule prevents me from returning the instrument for repair.  I'm using real capos (ancient technology) and alternate instruments (DADGAD) where needed, but I still love the instrument, and don't want to let it go.  Unless I can find another solution, I plan to return it in mid-Dec when the tour is over.  I'll have a break then until mid-Jan.

Bud



Re: RE: JTV59 Alternate Tuning - Still Hear Standard String
by ozbadman on 2011-11-15 15:57:10

bmcmanus wrote:

*  One curious phenomenon: in the "DADGAD" tuning knob position, every time I pluck the high "D" string, about 1/2 second later, I hear the standard "E" string sound leaking through in the recordings (oops, ozbadman, subtract 1/4 point).  This happens consistently.  The tone of the E is clear, and that is the only string I've heard it on.  It ONLY occurs when using the DADGAD position on the tuning knob. When using DADGAD alternate tuning I generated in the Model position, I hear no E string leaking through.

Well that is weird. If it were on both I might have suggeted cross-resonance between the E and A strings, but as it is, curioser and curioser.



Re: RE: JTV59 Alternate Tuning - Still Hear Standard String
by sfeinstein on 2011-11-16 10:19:15

Very interesting, bmcmanus, and thanks for the follow up post. We are in the studio recording our new CD (well, at least parts of it) and I'll be there tonight. I plan to record the jtv-69 in several tunings using a 1/4" cable directly into the recording. Our sound engineer has a great ear, and this way we'll have several ears on the recorded sound (file) to see if there is any bleed through on alternate tunings. Hopefully there will not be, but we should know tonight.

If there is any bleed through of the original string pitch in the recording, I have a thread going and if i can figure out how to do it, I'll post an mp3 file and also, most likely, send a wav file to line6.



Re: JTV59 Alternate Tuning - Still Hear Standard String
by MerlinFL on 2012-05-17 20:15:08

I've seen several posts referring to this problem as well as my own pointing out that as of the latest POD HD500/Pro 2.02 (I think?)update, which was the same time as the JTV 1.81 update this situation has occurred.

What I've learned which yet again might have already been covered before my post here - is that the mags are coming through even though the player is not "asking" for them to sound simultaneously.

I got this result even when using a 1/4" standard cord into a conventional amp.  I thought by default it must be in the 1.81 update.  I rolled back to 1.71, then plugged back into the POD HD500 with it's latest update and got the same dual tone situation.

I went through all input options and found that the only time the dual sound stopped was when the input was set to "Variax Mags".  Which simply told me that there was some sort of communication error between the JTV and the POD HD with signals using Vax ch.1 and Vax ch.2.  What really had me stumped was the same dual sound happening plugged into a conventional amp.

What I managed to work out was if I switched the guitar on then off, then back on again - that cleared the problem most of the time.  Other times clearing the problem occurred when switching the alt tuning knob from one tuning to another then back to either MODEL because I had a Workbench created alt tuned patch or back to the Alt tuning knob position I wanted to work initially.

This was a very confusing glitch I reported the best I could as there are so many factors that cleared it up or perhaps were causing it.

If any are still having this dual sound problem - please try as I've suggested and if none of my successful attempts work for anyone reading, please PM me and I'll try to help you work through your own specific JTV tuning problem.  And this is after you've submitted an official trouble ticket to Line 6 tech Support.  They are going to be much much more aware of this situation than I, but I might be able to help in the meantime.

Take care,

Neal

PS - also for anyone not already aware reading this post - JTV 1.82 has been released and although it has been reported to have some problems during the upgrade phase - I can confirm that the 1.81 Workbench guilt acoustic alt tuning problems have been resolved perfectly.  Line 6 tech has also tried to accommodate those of us who prefer the sound of the 1.71 acoustic guitar models by putting a nearly dry/direct mic'd acoustic sound ("as if mic'd at the 12th fret" as stated in the update) by dialing the tone knob to "10".  This defeats nearly all ambience that was annoying some users with update 1.81.  You will notice where this feature starts and stops by slowly rolling the tone knob on these acoustic models from 10 to 0 and back.  There is a very audible difference that I would equate to the knob position "8" that changes from the original 1.81 ambient sound to this new drier sound for each of the five models in that bank.

I still feel that my suggestion of just adding back the original 1.71 acoustic models into Custom Bank 1 and just give us JTV players the choice to use, mix/match whichever of these acoustic models we like for the songs we use them for.  Line 6 has always been about giving guitarists freedom to choose from a wide variety, this would be a golden opportunity to bring a bit of those past days back without much difficulty in my limited understanding of how the JTV guts work.



Re: JTV59 Alternate Tuning - Still Hear Standard String
by MaestrosounD on 2012-05-18 06:10:19

Same here, changing firmware a few times seems to work...



Re: JTV59 Alternate Tuning - Still Hear Standard String
by player99 on 2012-05-20 00:32:39

For the bleed issue I bet there is a bad ribbon cable in the guitar.




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