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Big Big problems using Line 6 XD-V70L
by mats_o_b on 2011-12-27 10:57:35

We are scandinavias biggest Outside Broadcast Company and we just bought 4 x XD-V70L and an extra Handmic for one of our productions.

Today are the first time they use it and they are having big big problems, It´s in an Icehockey-arena in the south of Sweden and they are experince all sorts of problems, short range with a lavalier at the referee "hole" in the plexiglass by the secretariat and no reliabale audio. The recievers are between the player benches where the studio with 2 x XD-V70 with AKG C520 Headmickes are. For this we have 2 x P180 antennas.

At the start of the show the Host was breaking up and it was not usable at all, now they have found a channel that works. The transmitter to antenna distance are about 2-4 meters for those and it is about 35 meters to the referee-mic.

I guess is that there are 1-2 Wlans and some Wireless mics in the 800 MHz range at the arena.

i guess we have to return this the the Swedish distributor

Mats B

Mediatec Broadcast Sweden

www.mediatecgroup.com/broadcast



Re: Big Big problems using Line 6 XD-V70L
by dboomer on 2011-12-27 13:05:35

It's unlikely that 800Mhz wireless mic or Wlans are bothering you unless they are very close to the receiving antennas.  You could quickly test by shutting them off and see if the problem goes away.

You may have a near/far issue because of the ratio of close transmitters to the one being used by the referee.  You could switch the transmitters that are close to their receivers to low power and leave the referee mic set at high power.

Do you have the amp switch on the P180s set to the proper position?  How long (and what type cable are you using) and what is the switch set at?  Any connectors in the line?

How are the antennas placed and aimed?  You may have better performance using them at 90 degrees apart (as in our antenna guide example).



Re: Big Big problems using Line 6 XD-V70L
by mats_o_b on 2011-12-27 23:39:49

They were having problems all day but when the audience got in the problems got worse. Even thoug it was almost line of sight to all the transmitters.

I don´t really know how the switches on the antennas were, but I think they tried them in every position.

We had good 50 ohms cable and 2 connectors at the rack, but I know that they  connected the antennas directly to the first reciever in the chain.

One thing we have is a wireless camera in the 2-2.2 GHz range close to the studio where we have 2 beltpacks ,the handmic and the recievers. But the problems started before the camera where on, but i guess they got worse when it was started.

This repalced and aging Sennheiser system that transmitted on 800-820 MHz and since that is an frequency-span we can´t use anymore we had to replace it. But that system was working every show for 2 years without this kind of problems. I was hoping this would be as robust and easy to use as the old Sennheiser. Unfortually it isn´t, not even close, even though it has a few good things going for it, soundquality and lack of things to set :-).

But in my world of live broadcast the transmission has to be a lot more robust, The system are being used by different people every time, depending on where in the country it is and it has to be "set and forget" because this is just part of what they are rigging every time.

Mats B



Re: Big Big problems using Line 6 XD-V70L
by mats_o_b on 2011-12-28 05:15:47

I´ve been thinking....

Is it possible to overload the RF input? we were using P180 with relative short cables,

We had 3 transmitters close and 1 was 35 meters away.

Mats B



Re: Big Big problems using Line 6 XD-V70L
by dboomer on 2011-12-28 14:18:37

Yes, you can overlaod the RF input.  That's why I need to make certain that the antenna gain switches are in the correct position.  Better too small than too large.

It is also imperative the the antenna interconnect cable between receivers be the LMR-195 cable (as supplied in the box) or an equalilvalent double shielded type.  This also may be necessary depending on how the antenna cables are run from the paddles.  It is much preferred to use LMR-195 here too (unless you have exceeded 30m).

I would be more concerned about the wireless camera if it is near the paddle antennas.



Re: Big Big problems using Line 6 XD-V70L
by mats_o_b on 2011-12-30 06:38:53

I have checked and the Camera is on 2.306 or 2.316 GHz and was between the transmitters and the P180 antennas.

I am not sure of the output of the camera but my guess would be 100mW, It could be less.

Before I bought thissystem I made some tests and then I was in the hockeyarena here in my hometown, with a few WIFI nets and a wireless mic, here I used the rubber antennas without any problems and the distance from transmitter to revciever was about 50 m.

Could I be better of if I Use your supplied cable and connector, and moved the connection to the front of the pack and then put the rubber antennas there? I will at least test this after the holidays.

I got this picture from a measurement in a typical Arena where the system would be used, I think it was made with an iPhone, but still would it be possible to use the system in such enviorment?

WIFI.jpg

Mats B



Re: Big Big problems using Line 6 XD-V70L
by dboomer on 2011-12-30 09:27:32

Hi Mats

You can move the antennas to the front using the supplied long rack ear.  It comes with the connectors and the cables necessary.  If your antennas are in the rear are they upright (vertical)?  If they are laying horizontal you will lose a lot of range.

Camera at 2.3 GHz shouldn't be a problem unless the transmitters antennas are close to The XD-V's receiver antennas.

Have you swept the venue for RF?



RE: Big Big problems using Line 6 XD-V70L
by Line6Hugo on 2012-01-09 09:29:34

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Re: Big Big problems using Line 6 XD-V70L
by RonMarton on 2012-01-14 19:58:39

Hello Mats,

I don't want to offend or upset anyone with the basic nature of my comments regarding your problems with the P-180 antennas.

It's just that, having over forty years of live outside broadcast ("remotes" to the Americans) television audio experience, I know that I have made the mistake of setting up new systems "the way we always did it" with the old.

Sometimes we old soldiers must "unlearn" !

What I'm getting at is the huge difference between other manufacturer's "log periodic" paddle antennas (Shure, Sennheiser, Nady etc.) and the smaller "patch array" P-180's.

If your crew had the "thin spine" of the P-180's paddle plates pointed at the "action area" the way the older log periodic paddles are used, not only would each one be side-rejecting the precious signal, but also possibly phase-cancelling this signal while simultaneously aiming at and emphasizing WiFi and Bluetooth interference from the audience area.

As you know, but your crew may not, with P-180's, the flat surface on the side opposite the little switch and BNC connector must point towards the transmitters.

No criticism intended, but it seems to me (from other discussions I've read) that, in common with all of us who live with "pet projects", Line 6's own experts may miss or misunderstand an "old tech or low tech" point for the very reason that it seems so basic to them.

By the way, when using a pair of correctly oriented P-180's, I can report successful reception over 300 metres (that's right, more than three times the specification) from a Gator GM4WR portable rack, fully populated with four XD-V70 receivers.

I own two such kits and should point out that this extended range arises from correctly aimed P-180's terminating Times Microwave LMR-240 double-shielded 50 ohm cables ...with almost no other 2.4 GHz traffic in the vicinity.

All the very best, from

RON.



Re: Big Big problems using Line 6 XD-V70L
by mats_o_b on 2012-01-20 00:17:42

No offence but it been me who has done most of the testing with this and I´ve done everything "by the book".

I tried it last week again with mixed results,We did a Icehockey-game here in my hometown and I had the recievers behind one of the goals and one lavalier behind each goal, I used 2 P180 antennas oriented in the right way.......:-) andthose lavalier worked without problems. I also had a handheld and during the afternoon I walked around the Ice without any dropouts or other probkems, but when we try to use it right before the game it didn´t work at all. it was between the players benches with the presenters body between the mic and the antennas, apart from that it was just one sheet of plexi in between.

So sorry but in my world thats not good enough, we have to be able to test it during setup and then trust it to work during the broadcast.

The thing is that I really hoped this would work for us, there are some really nice things about this, when it works it sounds really good if you have a good lavalier. And since we work in most of northern Europe, it would simplifiy things, we wouldn´t have to seek permission all the time.

And I have 30 years of broadcast experience and is known to make things work....;-)

Mats B



Re: Big Big problems using Line 6 XD-V70L
by RonMarton on 2012-01-20 10:12:13

We seem to be "Brothers in Sound", Mats...

Decades of TV Outside Broadcasts, a world apart !

I'm sure you forgive my "going back to basics" to help cut down MY lack of understanding.

What I definitely do understand is our need for rock-solid reliability as well as the sick feeling when the director's planned cross to a presenter isn't as slick as it should be because of an audio problem that arrives out of nowhere.

Licensing and more crowding of VHF and UHF also drove my purchase of eight XD-V70's, with eight TBP12 beltpacks and the option of up to four THH12 hand-helds instead of up to four of my beltpacks. (It's also great to be able to have alternative radio mics on the same channel, knowing that two transmitters can be running simultaneously, the first "owning" the receiver until it's switched off, which then triggers the second to do a quick "handshake" and take over. Great for changes of clothes and/or artists.)  

As to these persistent problems, I guess we're coming back to Don's question of "Have you swept the venue for RF?".

You and I would almost never have the time on an OB to do this, but, given the timing of the "crash", I'm wondering about some really powerful "dirty" RF in the venue from something like data being radiated (across lots of bands, not necessarily just 2.4 GHz ISM) for scoreboard, stats, remote control of displays, lighting, air conditioning or even distributed A/V.

I can report that a unified data-based control system for quite a few of these applications that runs through all of Sydney's Olympic Precinct, based on "leaky coax" RF radiation, caused years of havoc for broadcasters and PA systems, ...right up until some aspect of its earthing was eventually found not to have been correct.

Maybe this is also indicated by your saying that, after successful testing, "right before the game... it didn't work at all..." about a handheld that is not only held away from bodies, but whose movement will also trigger frequent "antenna switching" via your correctly set up P180 diversity system.

I wish that there was more I could do to help.

RON.



Re: Big Big problems using Line 6 XD-V70L
by RonMarton on 2012-01-20 15:17:03

Aaargh !!!!

Sorry about this, Mats...

But more of the "bleeding obvious". (Blame the crew setting up today's "Twenty Twenty Cricket" Outside Broadcast.)

Microwave LINK activity ?

You've almost certainly eliminated whatever means you are using to deliver/broadcast your own program, but what about another crew (news or live sport update, internet, radio or TV) rocking in and firing-up a few watts anywhere from 2 to 13 GHz, ...just in time for their pre-match report?

You would think that something along these lines would only be an issue if it was pointed straight at your receivers, but reflections from metal structures seem to be able to do the strangest things.

If something like this could be identified, negotiation and/or re-location might yet yield an answer.

Fingers crossed...

RON.




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