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Is 1/4" to Amp(Combo PowerAmp Mode) and XLR to PA for Direct Recording possible on HD500
by guitarmania0 on 2011-12-31 09:57:36

I was trying all sorts of things to make this happen.

I use a POD HD 500

What I exactly want to do is that I want to use two outputs with two different setups.

1. I want to use the 1/4" output to go to my Amp with the Combo or Stack Power Amp mode which turns of  the Cab and Mic Sims

2. I want the XLR output to work on the Line Mode so I can record my sound with Cab sims and Mic sims on.

of course, this is on live situation.

On the last gig i just gave up on the output settings and just put it on Studio/Direct mode and I plugged the 1/4" output to my amp's Return jack. This, for me, sounds very, very terrible. I love it when the effects are set on the power amp mode and plugged in to the return jack... but i still didn't want to mic the amp for PA or for live recording. i just wanted to turn the simulations on for the xlr outputs.

Is this possible?



Re: Is 1/4" to Amp(Combo PowerAmp Mode) and XLR to PA for Direct Recording possible on HD500
by spikey on 2011-12-31 10:11:11

Join the club. This is the same for the HD-Pro as well....

I too would like multi (more than one at a time) output settings (per patch or Global) so that I can also run to an AMP and send to the PA with the proper output settings. I have sent in this request to line-6 and I have not heard anything yet. I suggest you do the same. If enough of us complain loud enough maybe they will change this needed oversite....



Re: Is 1/4" to Amp(Combo PowerAmp Mode) and XLR to PA for Direct Recording possible on HD500
by guitarmania0 on 2011-12-31 10:54:34

Thank you,

Since I'm in Korea I don't know if i will be counted as a actual customer if u know what I mean.

Will you tell me how to post an complaint to the Line 6 in US?



Re: Is 1/4" to Amp(Combo PowerAmp Mode) and XLR to PA for Direct Recording possible on HD500
by gregr on 2011-12-31 11:16:27

Yes, you can do this with the HD500, though you lose stereo and amp summing operation and may run into DSP limitations.  You also might not like the way it sounds if you still wish to use cabinet modeling through your amp, though I think most people prefer not to run cabinet modeling in combination with a real guitar amplifier.

Set up a dual amp patch with one amp running without a cabinet model and the other with a cabinet model.  Pan one amp hard to the left channel and the other to the right channel.  Run the HD500 in Studio/Direct mode.  Any effects that may mix the two chains back to mono need to be placed in each of the parallel chains before the mixer block.  Send the output containing the chain fed by the amp model that includes the cabinet model to the PA and the one without the cabinet model to the effect return of your combo amp.

If sending an XLR to the PA and a 1/4" to your amp, insert a dummy plug into the unused 1/4" output jack in order to prevent the signal going to your amp from being mixed to mono.

If you run into a DSP limitation, consider using a preamp-only model for the chain feeding your amp.  This will probably work better for tube-based guitar amp than for a solid state guitar amp, but should still work pretty well in either case.



Re: Is 1/4" to Amp(Combo PowerAmp Mode) and XLR to PA for Direct Recording possible on HD500
by spikey on 2011-12-31 11:21:57

If you run the HD500 (or HD Pro) in Studio Direct mode Greg, then you lose the correct frequency settings (that are needed) for sending the correct preamp signal to an amplifier (like the DT-50). The signals sent to a full range PA need to be and ARE different than what you should send to your Amp. Thats why there are different output modes like "Stacked Pwr amp", for instance. The point here is that we can NOT run "Stacked Pwr Amp" AND Studio Direct mode at the same time to 2 different things. like an Amp AND the PA.



Re: Is 1/4" to Amp(Combo PowerAmp Mode) and XLR to PA for Direct Recording possible on HD500
by spikey on 2011-12-31 11:28:03

Here is the Link Mania...

http://line6.com/company/contact/productfeedback/



Re: Is 1/4" to Amp(Combo PowerAmp Mode) and XLR to PA for Direct Recording possible on HD500
by gregr on 2011-12-31 11:28:47

If you are not using a cabinet model then there is no difference between combo power amp, stack power amp and studio/direct.

There will be differences between the front options and the power amp options, however, but if you're running into the effects return, bypassing your amp's preamp then you shouldn't be using a front option.  This is probably superfluous since we aren't talking about using either of the front options, but there will be no difference between stack front and combo front if cabinet models aren't being used.

I'm not trying to discourage any requests from adding a dual mode to the HD500.  In fact I think a dedicated, user-selectable cabinet model associated with just the XLR outputs would be fantastic.  Perhaps it could be independent from the model chosen for the other outputs, have dedicated mic modeling and ER, whlie the other outputs don't, or something to that effect.

I just want to present a viable option that has been used quite successfully.



Re: Is 1/4" to Amp(Combo PowerAmp Mode) and XLR to PA for Direct Recording possible on HD500
by spikey on 2011-12-31 11:34:44

gregr wrote:

If you are not using a cabinet model then there is no difference between combo power amp, stack power amp and studio/direct.

Im sorry but thats incorrect. I can hear a large difference in sending Direct versus stacked power Amp to my $600 powered studio FLAT response Mackies,  whether or not the speaker sims are on or off. Same for my DT-50. This speaker simulation is a whole nother EQ colorizing thing and has nothing to do with the proper EQ'ed preamped "Amp" tone sent to the PA versus the guitar amp. So I dont believe its redundant and think it still makes a huge difference in sending the output powered device the correct eq'ed signal depending on what you are using, BEFORE even turning the Speaker simulation on. For instance, I leave the Speaker sims OFF when running to my guitar amp because I want the tone on the Marshall 1960a cabs. But if I then switch from stacked powered amp to direct studio mode (for PA use), the Dt-50 sounds like crap... So it does make a difference.



Re: Is 1/4" to Amp(Combo PowerAmp Mode) and XLR to PA for Direct Recording possible on HD500
by gregr on 2011-12-31 11:56:59

If no cabinet modeling is in use then:

Stack power amp = combo power amp = studio/direct

Stack front = combo front

If you are using cabinet modeling then this no longer holds, obviously.

If you have evidence to suggest otherwise, please include some sound clips, as what you'd be claiming runs contrary to everything reported by Line 6 experts and staff.



Re: Is 1/4" to Amp(Combo PowerAmp Mode) and XLR to PA for Direct Recording possible on HD500
by spikey on 2011-12-31 12:48:25

gregr wrote:

Clips please!

What you are stating runs contrary to everything reported by Line 6 experts and staff.

Here ya go.... The only thing that was changed besides a bit of difference in my playing was the outputs...

Maybe you should let those experts and staff hear these... ; )

Again, cab modeling tones have NOTHING to do with the changes in output pre-amp EQ tones, as proven here by these clips.

And you can hear these differences with cab models on, so you can also hear the difference with them off.

The difference you hear "here" is coming from the pre-outs of the eq'ed amp simulations (Stacked Pwr Amp and Direct Output), because the speaker simulation/model was kept the same on both clips and they were not changed here.

So there ya are greg... What say you?... Are you going to continue to stand by the idea that Stacked Pwr Amp = Studio Direct tone and that it only changes when you use speaker simulation now? This is the very reason I answered the OP like I did. There needs to be seperate multiple output options per either global setting or by a patch to patch basis, so that we can send these much different EQ'ed tones to their correct amplification devices at the SAME TIME. Because as you can clearly hear by the mp3's i provided, they are colored differently tonewise from the OUTPUT settings alone, and for a very good reason. They goto different amps with different frequency responses....




Re: Is 1/4" to Amp(Combo PowerAmp Mode) and XLR to PA for Direct Recording possible on HD500
by gregr on 2011-12-31 16:30:20

I hope you aren't trying to pass these off as if they were done with cabinet modeling disabled, because they were clearly done with cabinet modeling enabled!

The best explanation I've seen for a while is here:

http://line6.com/support/message/340212#340212">http://line6.com/support/message/340212#340212">http://line6.com/support/message/340212#340212

...except that I don't know that we can assume that low-pass filtering is necessarily tied to the microphone model; though it very well could be!

An excerpt:

meambobbo wrote:

I have a Line 6 Spider Valve Mk I with a Celestion Vintage 30 speaker.  I plug into the power amp input as well.  I use Studio/Direct output mode, but I select "no cab" as my cab.  With "no cab", there is no cab or mic simulation; and the power amp output modes sound the same as Studio/Direct mode.



Re: Is 1/4" to Amp(Combo PowerAmp Mode) and XLR to PA for Direct Recording possible on HD500
by spikey on 2011-12-31 17:17:55

Jeeze can you not see this Greg?

Cabinet modeling does NOT matter in this case. The tones changed because of the output preamp modeling.

The Cabinet modeling stayed the same! Why is this concept so hard to grasp?

The outputs were the ONLY changes made, and the tones changed...!

Even with clips and a clear explanation you refuse to see. Must be deliberate is all I can assume.

Ok your right Greg. Just go on and use whatever methods for sound managment you wish to. Im done here....

EDITED: EATING CROW HERE... But it still should not be happening the way that it is... Read below...



Re: Is 1/4" to Amp(Combo PowerAmp Mode) and XLR to PA for Direct Recording possible on HD500
by gregr on 2011-12-31 17:20:44

Yes, cabinet modeling does matter.  It is at the very heart of the matter.  I thought my initial post was pretty clear that cabinet modeling was not to be used.

How many times do I need to repeat myself?

gregr wrote:

If no cabinet modeling is in use then:

Stack power amp = combo power amp = studio/direct

Stack front = combo front

If you are using cabinet modeling then this no longer holds, obviously.

Now go back and repeat your experiment with cabinet modeling disabled.

<sigh>



Re: Is 1/4" to Amp(Combo PowerAmp Mode) and XLR to PA for Direct Recording possible on HD500
by spikey on 2012-01-03 15:31:15

sigh...

You are correct Greg.

Yes adding in the same speaker emulation to two identical pre-amp outputs   tone wise (before adding the speaker emulation), does indeed "change" the tones of the 2 preamp outputs after.

Think about that for a minute.

Lets sub in some real identical brand name amp heads and a single Marshall 1960a speaker cab.

1. All settings in the front are set the same on the amps.

2. Each then are plugged into the 1960a cab and recorded.

3. Should they not sound (within reason) the same?

However the guru's at Line-6 have created a paradox,  in that this same setup above causes these amps (which sounded the same earlier without a virtual speaker attached to them) to now sound different with the "same" speaker emulation attached to them.

Greg, can you or anyone else here explain the logic behind this concept? Why would they create something that doesnt act like an amp would in the real world with regard to what we have been discussing, yet try their best to mimic one?



Re: Is 1/4" to Amp(Combo PowerAmp Mode) and XLR to PA for Direct Recording possible on HD500
by gregr on 2012-01-03 16:08:55

If I had my say during the development of the HD500 some things would have been done differently. I've gone on record more than once saying I wish some things behaved more like the DigiTech RP1000 (or better still, the GSP1101), especially in the way of the ability to run a cab model without an amp model and to have the option to have compensation on the XLR outs even when none is applied to the 1/4" outs.

However, as someone who typically uses his HD500 as a preamp to drive either the power section of a solid state combo amp or a tube-driven stack (I typically use a 1960A, FWIW), I personally don't really have any issues.  This is especially true considering that both the combo and head I slave to the HD500 have compensated XLR outs, though I have yet to see venue where they weren't happy to mic my cabinet instead.

All this aside, I don't really find the current functionality all that perplexing, even if the manual is a bit vague about the operation.  That it is vague is the reason why I generally go out of my way to explain it.  Unfortunately I find it a bit disheartening to see this factual information be so voraciously contradicted.



Re: Is 1/4" to Amp(Combo PowerAmp Mode) and XLR to PA for Direct Recording possible on HD500
by spikey on 2012-01-03 19:55:08

I dont find its fuctionality perplexing Greg. I find it just plain wrong. However correct you were in the final outcome...

But real functioning amps hooked to real speakers in the real world act as I have stated. Not like this. Thats why I tested as I did. And for someone (Line-6)  to try to copy an exzactness in this field by going at it in this bizzare bass-actwards software driven way is the perplexing part for me. What it does and how it does it must have been someones nightmare, because it is not in any way how a real amp and cab will act when compaired to another real amp and cab. They "have" to be programers and not musicians lol... I guess Im just too old school for this stuff : P... And The only issue I really have it that I want to run the DT-50 without speaker emulation,  and the DAW interface with emulation AT THE SAME TIME, while setting up on a patch per patch basis...

sigh...

It works... And yes it does sounds good... but that dont make it right...



Re: Is 1/4" to Amp(Combo PowerAmp Mode) and XLR to PA for Direct Recording possible on HD500
by guitarmania0 on 2012-01-03 20:48:46

Thank you very much for the helpful reply.

This could work as my intentions were.

Still our initial interest is that Line 6 making a new update for this matter isn't it?

Let's not fight each other and fight Line 6 for this matter.



Re: Is 1/4" to Amp(Combo PowerAmp Mode) and XLR to PA for Direct Recording possible on HD500
by wjoyce on 2012-01-04 00:54:15

It's a bit frustrating having upgraded from the X3 Live to the HD500 to find that the unit is a step backwards in many respects.  No separate output modes for balanced/unbalanced, and no driver support for recording dry are the 2 that affect me the most.  I'm clinging on to the hope that there is an update incoming, but the units been out a while now (12 months?)



Re: Is 1/4" to Amp(Combo PowerAmp Mode) and XLR to PA for Direct Recording possible on HD500
by spikey on 2012-01-04 19:40:44

Wjoyce they do read these forums  (even if they dont answer enough to suite me) , and Im sure that a few even take back an idea to the "caged up crazy programmers" some of the things we mention here.

While most of it gets a snicker and a "cough that wont work" attitude outta them, Im sure that some talk,  way back in the corners where no one was listening and whisper..., now why didnt we think of that....

So keep on pitchin fast balls is what I say. Maybe we can get a few inside strikes...



Re: Is 1/4" to Amp(Combo PowerAmp Mode) and XLR to PA for Direct Recording possible on HD500
by matt-the-splat on 2012-05-23 19:24:48

I realise this is a REALLY old post... but as far as I can tell nobody came up with a solution...

How about this idea?

Set up one of the FX blocks as the FX loop... put this effects block just before the amp in the HD500. Go from the effects loop into a splitter or DI box with spliiting capabilites.

From there send one cable to your amp and one cable back to the POD... This might sound more natural through the amp?

Heres an attemped diagram to show what i mean.

                                                                               [AMPLIFIER]

                                                                                        |

                                                                                        ^

                                                                                        |

                                                 --->--[SPLITTER]--->--

                                                 |                                      |

                                                 ^                                     v

                                                 |                                      |

                                          [FX SEND]                     [FX RETURN]   

                                                 |                                      |

                                                 ^                                     v

                                                 |                                      |

[Guitar]------>------>-------[      POD     HD    500       ]----->----[PA OR RECORDING DEVICE]

EDIT: JUST REALISED THERE'S A BETTER WAY TO DO IT! PLEASE READ THE REPLY I POSTED TO THIS COMMENT!

It does mean that any effects blocks after the FX loop won't be included in the signal being sent to the amplifier... but it might be worth trying? And it does mean you can still take STEREO out to the PA

If it still doesn't sound right going the the amp... You could even try putting an equaliser between the splitter and the amp to try to make the signal more like the PODs usual output settings for going to an amplifier?

Hope this helps!



Re: Is 1/4" to Amp(Combo PowerAmp Mode) and XLR to PA for Direct Recording possible on HD500
by matt-the-splat on 2012-05-23 19:48:28

Just thought of a way better way to do it...

So if lets say you have a basic effects chain in your HD500... Tube screamer, Amp, Delay, Reverb..... then output.

You could do it this way.

                                                                                                                                           [Amplifier]

                                                                                                                                                  |

                                                                                                                        ----[Splitter]----|

                                                                                                                        |                         |

                                                                                                                    Send                Return     

                                                                                                                         |                        |     

                           -->--[Pre-Amp model]-->--[Delay]-->--[Reverb]-->--[EFFECTS LOOP]-->--

                           |     (No cab/mic sim)                                                                                           |

[Screamer]-->--|                                                                                                                              |_______PA

                           |                                                                                                                              |            

                           -->--[Amp model]-->--{Delay]-->--[Reverb]--------------->-------------->--------|

                             (with mic/cab sim)

That way you get your pre-amp only into your amplifier...

and you get the full amp with the mic and cab simulation into the PA.

And again... You could buy an equaliser to put between the splitter and the amp if the output settings on the POD aren't great for the amp.

Hope this helps!

Just had another thought... You could even put an EQ as an effects block within the HD500 just before the effects loop!

To save you from having to use an external EQ!

Message was edited by: matt-the-splat




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