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HD500 and Digitech HarmonyMan 4-cable method(in front of amp)
by BlueViolince on 2012-02-23 15:15:59

This is something interesting I discovered today.  I am using a Digitech Harmony Man, which has an effects loop for triggering off of the dry signal, and placing the harmony effect after the distortion.  I ran my signal into the Harmony Man, and went from the loop into the HD500's input.  The FX send went to the Harmony Man's return, and the HM output went to my other pedals, and then into the HD500's fx return.  In this setup, the harmony effect was very thin and digital sounding, like a cheap octave splitter.  This only occurs when the harmony effect is engaged.  Bypassed, everything sounds like it should. 

When I ran everything inline, with the harmony man in front of the POD, with my other effects in the harmony man's effect loop, the pitch effect was much fuller, the way it should be. 
I realize that this is not a common setup, and I doubt many other people would run into this type of situation, but I think there may be a glitch in the HD500 fx send causing a phase issue that thins out the tone.  I will have to take my rig into the studio and compare waveforms to confirm this, but that's what my ears are telling me.  I did keep my GE-7 in the POD's effect loop, and there were no problems there.  The problem is likely in the way the Harmony Man's send and return match up with the POD's effect loop.  Anyone else run into phase problems with the fx loop?



Re: HD500 and Digitech HarmonyMan 4-cable method(in front of amp)
by Nick_Mattocks on 2012-02-24 01:34:37

Hi

Sorry. Maybe I'm being dim but I don't understand your signal routing from the HD500 to the Harmony Man and back to the HD500. The way you've written it just looks wrong to me and I would expect pretty much what you experienced.

Personally I would have put the Harmony Man wholly in the HD500's FX loop something like this:

Guitar > external FX chain

External FX chain > HD500 guitar input

HD500 FX loop Send > Harmony Man input

Harmony Man Dry Out > HD500 FX Return LEFT

Harmony Man harmony 1 Out > HD500 FX Return RIGHT

Maybe that's what you meant, but it wasn't clear. I might be able to try it later as I have a Harmony Man here.

Nick



Re: HD500 and Digitech HarmonyMan 4-cable method(in front of amp)
by BlueViolince on 2012-02-24 08:12:13

Here was my original routing scheme:

Violin  > Harmony Man instrument input

Harmony man distortion fx send > external fx input

External fx output > HD500 instrument input

HD500 fx send > Harmony Man distortion fx return

Harmony Man output > HD500 fx return

Basically, the theory was that the HM likes a cleaner input, and keys the harmonies off of the dry signal.  The distortion fx loop allows the drive and whatever else to go in front of the actual harmony effect without mucking up the harmonizer's pitch detection, but places the actual effect after the drive.  I wanted harmony to go after my drive section, so I put the HD500 fx loop after the amp models. 

What I now have is a more standard setup:

Violin > Harmony Man instrument input

Harmony Man distortion fx send > Yamaha Magicstomp

Magicstomp > Harmony Man fx return

Harmony Man output > HD500 instrument input

HD500 fx send > GE-7 sniper

GE-7 > HD500 fx return

As it ended up, it sounds better in front of drive, and the suboctave works really well with my drive setup.  The Magicstomp stays in the HM's loop so I can run a thick chorus before a D1/D2 detuner on the HM.



Re: HD500 and Digitech HarmonyMan 4-cable method(in front of amp)
by jimsreynolds on 2012-02-24 10:42:36

I am having a few problems getting my head around your setup but I do know that each Analog/Digital conversion can introduce a (very) small amount of delay into your signal.  If you mix back into another signal later this can cause some pretty nasty phasey/comb-filter effects.   I suspect that the 'distortion send' may be expecting to send out to an analog dirtbox stomp rather than another digital device.  Analog dirtboxes don't really delay the signal at all.

This may not be a Pod thing as much as a generic Digital thing.



Re: HD500 and Digitech HarmonyMan 4-cable method(in front of amp)
by BlueViolince on 2012-02-25 08:31:50

I believe you are correct. At least I know what the issue is.  Is this something that a sonic maximizer would help with? 



Re: HD500 and Digitech HarmonyMan 4-cable method(in front of amp)
by jimsreynolds on 2012-02-25 09:08:13

I hear mixed reports about the BBE.  If you are hoping that the delay thing that the BBE does may help here then I doubt it (though I cannot say for certain.

What you could try though is ...

Hookup your setup as you described then

  • Turn the Mix on the Digitech to 100% wet (Harmony only)
  • Turn the Mix control on the HD Effects loop to 50%( or wherever you would normally set your balance between harmoniser and clean). 

That may work

Checkout the sketch below (click on it to enlarge).   Blue arrows are cables.  Red arrows are signal flows through the pedals. 

In the first pic , the mix happens at the Harmonyman output and this is where the phasiness happens.  In the second pic the mix happens at the Pod FX Return.   Doing the mix there may help.

Drawing1.gif




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