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Problem with setting custom Alternate Tuning on JTV59
by edstar1960 on 2012-04-05 04:40:40

My JTV59 is still at v1.71 flash.  I have successfully set custom alternate tunings on the Alt Tune knob before and also just dynamically set them without saving them.  Everything worked as expected first time.  Yesterday I had to save a custom tuning that I needed for band rehearsal. For some reason the JTV59 would not accuratley register the notes I was playing. Sometimes it would ignore them. Sometimes it would accept some but not all.  After about 10 attempts I managed to get it to recognize each of the 6 notes and stored the custom tuning.  Has anyone else experienced this on any JTV?   Thanks.



Re: Problem with setting custom Alternate Tuning on JTV59
by Line6Hugo on 2012-04-05 16:09:13

Have you tried re-installing the flash memory on the guitar?  If not, please do so to see if the problem persists:

http://line6.com/support/docs/DOC-1633

Regards,

Line6Hugo



Re: Problem with setting custom Alternate Tuning on JTV59
by MerlinFL on 2012-04-11 16:05:55

Yes Edstar - exactly like that which is why i don't bother creating tunings on the guitar itself anymore. 

I use Workbench for most tuning creation and storing. 

If you go with the latest POD HD & JTV upgrades...I can also alt tune my JTV via the VDI connection with my POD HD unit directly from the unit.  It has the ability to "force tune" the guitar for any patch you choose an alternate tuning for.  It saves that information with the POD HD unit's patches and does not use up any of the guitars patch slots to accomplish this.

Perhaps this might work without upgrading the JTV from your current version, but I'm not certain.

Take care,
Neal



Re: Problem with setting custom Alternate Tuning on JTV59
by edstar1960 on 2012-04-16 02:21:39

Thanks very much for confirming that I am not alone in this experience Neal.   As I said, the first few times I tried it I had no issues but the most recent time it just would not work correctly - ignoring notes or choosing the wrong pitch for notes - but eventually it worked - weird - but it has knocked my confidence in the ability to just create a virtual capo or dynamic tuning dynamically - which for rehearsals or even for live situations is an incredibly useful ability to have.

I have not tried the HD500 upgrade yet but great to hear that you can set the tunings there and then have the HD500 enforce them on the JTV based on patch selection.  I will have to try that out and see if it will work if the JTV remains at 1.71 but I would guess that it won't as the latest JTV flash upgrade is designed to work in sync with the HD500 upgrade.

I could also try the reflash as Hugo suggested as it could just be a glitch.

I will report back once I have tried these out.

Thanks again!

Best Regards

Eddie



Re: Problem with setting custom Alternate Tuning on JTV59
by MerlinFL on 2012-04-16 09:42:49

Hi Ed - if you upgrade your HD500 - you'll be able to "Force Tune" the acoustic models from the HD500 unit using the new Force tuning option on a per patch basis.  This will allow you to continue as I have done myself with alternate acoustic tunings which I have several of and use often in my live performances.  However, keep in mind, that you will not be able to do alt tuning plugged into anything else if that should ever come up.

It's always your choice what you choose todo, but since you have the HD500, I'd suggest upgrading your HD500 unit, then putting the upgrade 1.81 back into the JTV and you will have the best of both worlds.  The improved HS500 upgrade is amazing and has several very useful features added.

I've written two documents that explain all this if you want to check them out.

http://line6.com/support/docs/DOC-2638

http://line6.com/support/docs/DOC-2674

I hope this helps give you another choice for your performances.

Take care,

Neal



Re: Problem with setting custom Alternate Tuning on JTV59
by edstar1960 on 2012-04-20 02:07:00

Thanks very much Neal.

I updgraded my HD500 to the latest firmware and I connected up my JTV which is still at 1.71.  I navigated to the new options within the HD500 and they all show as N/A - so as we thought we can't use those new HD500 variax features with 1.71, I need to upgrade the guitar to 1.81.  Never mind at least we now know for certain.

The difference in the acoustic models is what is making me hold off on the upgrade plus the fact that there is the Workbench glitch that hasn't been fixed yet for alternate tunings on the acoustics.  However, I really would like this new functionality, as programming the exact tuning for each patch is fantastic and ensures I never get out of synch in a live show.  I am sure I am not the only one who has switched to an alternate tuning for one song and then started the next song in without returning to standard tuning!  So - having everything on the HD500 would be perfect!



Re: Problem with setting custom Alternate Tuning on JTV59
by litesnsirens on 2012-04-23 18:35:30

I can assure you that you aren't the only one who has done that with alternate tunings. LOL (I'm talking about the live mental glitch)

Neal, I'm assuming when you say you use workbench to create and store alternate tunings that you mean into the custom banks on the JTV.

Unless I'm missing some cool trick it would be nice if we could create custom tunings in workbench and then store them on the alt tune knob some how as if we were doing a virtual capo function on the guitar itself.  I can't believe they haven't got an alt tune page in workbench yet.  Not only would that be easier than going through what you and edstar have gone through (and myself on occasion) but it would be really handy when there is a major JTV update like this last one.  Instead of having to manually put all my custom tunings back on the guitar I could load in the save alt tune bank that I created in workbench with this cool feature that doesn't exist yet.



Re: Problem with setting custom Alternate Tuning on JTV59
by MerlinFL on 2012-04-25 20:13:24

litesnsirens wrote:

I can assure you that you aren't the only one who has done that with alternate tunings. LOL (I'm talking about the live mental glitch)

Neal, I'm assuming when you say you use workbench to create and store alternate tunings that you mean into the custom banks on the JTV.

-- Nope - I have altered almost every single guitar slot in every bank including thre two Custom banks.  When the original Variax guitars came out, I thought that i'd be stuck with only 10 slots for anything I created.  this is not the case.  Every slot in any bank can be anything you wish to store in that spot.  When the VDI cable is used and a stored patch is recalled in older or new gear - it stores the bank/slot position.  It shows whatever name you've given and in the older Variax, you would see an "F" or a "U" so you would know which banks of guitars you were choosing or recalling from the Vetta or any other pre-POD HD piece of VDI equipped gear.

Unless I'm missing some cool trick it would be nice if we could create custom tunings in workbench and then store them on the alt tune knob some how as if we were doing a virtual capo function on the guitar itself. 

-- You can't store anything from Workbench onto the Alt tuning knob as it stands right now.  However, you can create alternate tunings on the guitar itself and stoe those alternate tunings in any alternate tubning slot except "MODEL" or "STANDARD".  You follow the procedures for creating alternate tunings on-the-fly as demonstrated on the Line 6 Tutorial videos, or in the Advanced JTV Users Guide posted online in the manual section.

I can't believe they haven't got an alt tune page in workbench yet.  Not only would that be easier than going through what you and edstar have gone through (and myself on occasion) but it would be really handy when there is a major JTV update like this last one.  Instead of having to manually put all my custom tunings back on the guitar I could load in the save alt tune bank that I created in workbench with this cool feature that doesn't exist yet.

I'm not sure why you would want to save and recall tunings beyond those on the alternate tuning knob?  Doing that removes temporarily all the alternate tunings available, and it would not give you any guitar models to choose from - just tuning options which you have many on the knob as default, plus with 1.81 functionality - you can create any alternate tuning specifically for any guitar available on the guitar and tune it using the POD HD500 or POD HD PRO Edit software functions to alternately tune every single patch on every single bank of those POD HD units if you wanted or needed to.

I'd prefer two things to have happen  - one of which is being worked on already.

  1. Get the new Acoustic models to read, and recall any alternate tunings without the use of "Custom (Force) Tuning" from the POD HD units.  This prevents me from playing my guitar in acoustic mode through any other amp or direct through PA with my alternate tuned patches as I used to be able to do with the JTV 1.71 version.
  2. How about this for a suggestion I've already posted in the product feedback section and on my most recent Acoustic model demonstration of the Dream Rig.  Someone in the Dream Rig Group was not able to get his acoustic models to sound clean and undistorted. 

I gave instructions, those didn't work and he asked me if I had or could create a video to demonstrate how the Dream Rig sounds for me.  This gave me the thought that since so very many have complained about the "airiness" of the the new JTV 1.81 Dreadnought, Parlor, and Jumbo guitars in just that one bank. 

Many prefer the drier, more in-your-face, sound of the JTV 1.71 acoustic models in that one Acoustic bank.  but it's now either keep the acoustic guitar sounds many prefer and lose out on the 1.81 other functionality, or deal with the acoustic models just to have the new 1.81 functionality.  I suggested using one of the Custom banks for the older 1.71 acoustic guitar models while keeping the 1.81 acoustic guitar models in the standard acoustic bank as they are now. 

Nothing in the either Custom bank are unique models and I doubt highly anyone would be upset if Line 6 chose to accommodate both groups of acoustic preferences by switching Custom Bank 1 to the older JTV 1.71 Acoustic guitar models that Line 6 already has.  The tech team would only need to change out Custom Bank 1 with the older acoustic guitar models with those currently in Custom Bank 1.  I'm not a tech writer, but I would think that this would be fairly easy to accomplish with a minimum of tech time doing it.  Plus it would also give us acoustic guitar models we already know work with alternate tunings created in Workbench until the JTV 1.81 acoustic tuning problems is resolved.

If anyone is interested in my video demo in two parts - it can be found in the Dream Rig User's group as well as on YouTube at least links.  If you do choose to watch them both together take about 20 mins.  They are very rough and done in one take.  All my performance mistakes are left, because it was just for the purpose of demonstrating the sound I get from my Dream Rig by itself without any other speakers, or amplifiers.  Please do watch both in order to understand my demonstration correctly - thanks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gpJHrGdkEU&list=UUPyEGIOoZ1_Y2sg_OLJ-HJw&index=1&feature=plcp  Part 1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SfytZ-2vL9Q&list=UUPyEGIOoZ1_Y2sg_OLJ-HJw&index=2&feature=plcp    Part 2

Take care,

Neal



Re: Problem with setting custom Alternate Tuning on JTV59
by litesnsirens on 2012-04-25 22:38:31

Hey Neal, I watched the videos, good job.  I watched because I was curious, I play through a full range system as you know so it doesn't apply to me but I'm sure some DT users will want your patches.  I agree with pretty much everything you're saying.   I honestly don't think it's room sound I thnk it's box sound and I thing it's just a by-product of doing a really accurate job on the modeling.  And for that reason I also agree that they should offer a choice.

 

I'm also wondering if you have the tone on 100%,  on an FR system the models tend to sound better with the tone on 0, but I was thinking that the extra brightness on 100 might compensate for the lack of tweeters in the DT. 

As far as saving alt tunings, it's just that there are some that come with the guitar that I will never use and some that I need that arent there.   So I overwrite some of the tunings on the alt tuning knob with what I need.  And I have to do the virtual capo process on the guitar to achieve that.  So, it would be nice to be able to do that in workbench, and nice to save the entire alt tune knob settings with my tweaks. 



Re: Problem with setting custom Alternate Tuning on JTV59
by MerlinFL on 2012-04-25 23:24:08

Thanks for watching and not making fun of my poor playing as I was just trying to get through the video in one take.

Thank you also for the kind words about the point of my demo video and those other points I spoke about while going from patch to patch.

To answer your very simple question about the tone knob position - I had set between 40-50%.  The added high end was when I took the amps out of the equasion and just used the HD500 as a pass thru to the DT50 amps.  I chose not to get to bogged down into what setting I had on the guitars or the amps I used other than the few very important bits I thought should be brought up to make my demonstration as easy to understand as possible for anyone looking for acoustic guitar sound from a Dream Rig set-up without any addition gear as was my task.

I believe I also posted or wrote on the video itself that the camera mic was compensating for the severe drop in volume.  It didn't record the way it really does sound in comparative volume only.  Other than that - the built in mic on my Sony Video camera is pretty flat and a decent measure of tonality for the point of this two-part video demo.

Here is a link to a video I did long before the JTV ever came out.  I was using my Variax electric model 700 to show just how good the acoustic patches on that guitar at that time were.  I still think they are excellent.  Let me know what you think from this video clip.

Thanks and take care,

Neal



Re: Problem with setting custom Alternate Tuning on JTV59
by litesnsirens on 2012-04-26 16:10:42

I'd never make fun of your playing, I know you can play, and I know the context in which you made the video.  Your videos were a big part in my decision to invest in a JTV in the first place so I appreciate your willingness to take the time to help others as should other forum members.  I only asked about the tone knob because I had a bit of a theory going.  To me with the tone knob way up its a little shrill and I was just curious if guitar amp speakers would tame that.



Re: Problem with setting custom Alternate Tuning on JTV59
by AMRflyingdude on 2012-04-26 20:49:11

I found my own way out of this prolem.

The guitar listens to your strings and assumes the fret position by basically listening to you playin the notes, also, the guitars piezo is fully independent, each string is ndependent not like an electric acoustic guitar.

That being said...

your guitar needs to be tuned and in tune, takin it to the local shop for a setup is Fundamental for the variax. In addition when attempting to save alternate tunnings play every note easy, (do not strum hard and repetitive or to will confuse the guitar) and let it ring for a couple of seconds before moving on to the next. Try it and I bet it will work just fine, if it doesn't you need to to take your guitar for a setup.

:)



Re: Problem with setting custom Alternate Tuning on JTV59
by MerlinFL on 2012-04-26 20:55:35

Considering how badly I did play - you'd be entitled to poke some fun at me.    I know I did some myself, but the video was just about the sound in answer to a question posed here.

I do understand your point about the tone knob position and thinking perhaps the amp might tone that down, but in fact it makes the tone even more brittle sounding with tone on or near 10 coming through the speakers at nearly any volume.

I can work with Line 6 tech developed, but I think the 6 & 12 string Dreadnought models sound more electric than acoustic, the Parlor sounds more like the 1.71 Dreadnought 6-string body did, and the Jumbo 6 & 12 are the best overall sounding guitars in 1.81 with tone at positions between 30-50% or 3-5 on a scale of 1-10.

I really hope my suggestion of using Custom Bank 1 as an Acoustic bank for the 1.71 acoustic guitar bank is enacted so all acoustic users will be happy with the guitar models on the Variax.

Thanks again for all the kind words and take care,

Neal

PS - perhaps others might stop by here and even "edstar" who started this thread will see my reply and watch my videos to learn if his gear is working properly as he was wondering?



Re: Problem with setting custom Alternate Tuning on JTV59
by litesnsirens on 2012-04-26 21:23:59

Hey Neal, I agree although I don't find that the dreadnaughts have a roomy sound, to me through my system it sounds like they have a midrange honk to them.  The O18 parlour is useable and the jumbos sound great when they were pretty much unuseable before the update.  I don't find the D28-12 is near as bad as the 6 string D28.  In fact I tried taking all the octave strings off of it and it sounded better than the 6 string did.  In one of the other threads I asked for either a graphic EQ and or a 4 band fully parametric EQ in workbench for all of the acoustics since there is really not much else in the way of control.  The electrics have a bunch of ways to tinker with the sounds, but the acoustics could really benefit from a way to tailor the sound to your particular system.  One good EQ on your computer in workbench that be stored in the variax would be way more effective than what they have in the HD500.  It would only require some subtle EQ but you really need the right tool for the job so you can dial in on the frequencies you want to affect withouth stepping on others.

I also hope they will offer the old models for the guys that want them, I doubt I would load them up personally but I think everyone should be able to use what they like.  I don't miss the dreadnaughts now that the others sound so good, and I haven't really even attempted to try to dial out the honk yet.  In reality I could get by now with just the Gibson and the Guild.  I have to keep reminding myself that in reality I wouldn't have 5 acoustics. 1 or 2 good ones is great.  I don't use all the electric models either, I have my favourites and I go to them all the time.



Re: Problem with setting custom Alternate Tuning on JTV59
by edstar1960 on 2012-04-27 01:30:10

Thanks Neal!  I did check out your videos and found them very informative and you did not have to apologise for your playing - I thought it was very good. 

I don't own the dream rig - I just have the JTV and HD500 and I use a powered PA speaker to amplify - it's a cheap and low powered PA cab - the STUDIOMASTER GX12A - so it is not perfect but it does the job.  I keep thinking I ought to get a better quality PA amp to really reap the benefits of the JTV and HD500 combination, and maybe I will one day!

I also gave you the Correct Answer points as you certainly deserve them with all the help you have provided and you did provide a solution with the HD500 firmware 2 and JTV firmware 1.81 - but as I mentioned before I am holding off on the JTV 1.81 update for now - so I am stuck with the manual override.

Thanks again.

Take care!

Best Wishes

Eddie



Re: Problem with setting custom Alternate Tuning on JTV59
by edstar1960 on 2012-04-27 01:40:06

Thanks for the update AMRflyingdude - so it was not just me and Neal that hit this issue.

I certainly understand what you are saying and I can confirm that my guitar is set up correctly, and was in perfect tune, and I tried playing notes slowly and cleanly etc etc but it took over 10 attempts the last time I tried to set up a custom tuning on the guitar.  BUT as I said before, when I first had the guitar and experimented with setting up a custom tuning it all worked as advertised the first time, and more recently at a band rehearsal I just set up a tuning dynamically and did not save it and that worked fine - BUT subsequent to that I wanted to set that tuning up as a permanent entry and that is when it all went wrong.   Fortunately, I am not doing custom tunings all the time, so it is not a major issue for me, but I was still surprised that it had not worked as I had experienced before, and it had not worked as advertised and demo'd on many videos by Rich and Line6 guys, who can quickly strum a chord and fix the virtual capo or altered tuning.  

Maybe it was just a firmware glitch and maybe if I can be bothered to reflash my JTV I may not hit this again.  Or maybe if I just ensure I play each note extremely cleanly and slowly that I won't hit the problem again.  Or maybe if I upgrade to firmware 1.81 then I can use my HD500 to force the tuning per each patch so I won't have to concern myself with dynamic tuning again.   BUT - the dynamic custom tuning or virtual capo is one of the major selling features of the JTV so it should work the vast majority of the time - so I am disappointed that it doesn't even when great care has been taken to get the tuning and fretting right.

At least this thread will help anyone else who hits the problem.

Thanks for everyones input.

Best Regards

Eddie




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