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Confused - DT25 and Pod HD 500 patches
by LewisBrunton on 2012-04-11 23:48:20

Hi all,

having read through the manuals and the various discussions on line I understand that when using the Pod HD 500 with the DT25 via the Line6 link that I should select the preamp and not the full amp models on the HD500. It makes sense as the DT25 is providing the appropriate power amp stage. It also makes sense when you put the amp into LVM mode as the DT25 then provides the appropriate power amp stage through modelling rather than the valves as they are not being driven enough.

But...... having looked at the patches provided by Line 6 on the recent POD HD 500 updates that are specifically for the DT series of amps I find that they have provided two sets of patches, one for normal usage and a repeated set that are modified for LVM mode - but the LVM ones use the full amp models!?!?!

So that is basically saying that you are using the full amp from the Pod, then adding another modelled amp stage on the DT25?!? Are Line 6 suggesting that the modelled power amp in LVM mode doesn't cut it, or am I missing something.

At the end of the day I know that it doesn't matter what settings we use as long as we like the sound, but in an effort to try and get the most authentic sound we follow the guide and if those that write the guide can't make their mind up about what is authentic what do we do?

Any thoughts?

Lewis



Re: Confused - DT25 and Pod HD 500 patches
by Kupsik on 2012-04-12 00:21:34

Low volume mode on DT's "bypasses" tubes and models their influence by power amp modelling in DT to use DT when you can't turn it loud. So if you use DT25 in LVM full models ond HD500 should sound better - with only pre models you don't have the tubes (their modelling) in you chain.



Re: Confused - DT25 and Pod HD 500 patches
by LewisBrunton on 2012-04-12 00:28:52

As I understood it with the DT series of amps it works like this:

Normal:     Modelled preamp - Tube poweramp

LVM:        Modelled preamp - modelled poweramp

When using the HD500 the guide says to use the preamp only models as the HD500 replaces the preamp like so:

Normal:     HD500 modelled preamp - DT25 Tube poweramp

LVM:        HD500 modelled preamp - DT25 modelled poweramp

But when using the LVM patches provided by Line 6 in LVM mode it works like this:

LVM:       HD500 modelled preamp - HD500 modelled poweramp - DT25 modelled poweramp

So thats two sets of poweramp modelling affecting the tone of the guitar.

Again I know if it sounds good.... but surely it suggests that either the DT25 LVM is not up to scratch, or that something is up with the preamp models that needs to be dealt with by two sets of poweramp modelling in sucession.

Lewis



Re: Confused - DT25 and Pod HD 500 patches
by Kupsik on 2012-04-12 00:57:38

I'm not sure if DT25 modelled poweramp isn't bypassed when using signal from L6 link and if signal from HD500 doesn't go straight in front of tubes in DT25 and tubes are not so much used in LVM. But I'm not sure of it...



Re: Confused - DT25 and Pod HD 500 patches
by LewisBrunton on 2012-04-12 01:00:41

Indeed then in that case it would be useful for someone from Line 6 to clarify for us......



Re: Confused - DT25 and Pod HD 500 patches
by LewisBrunton on 2012-04-12 01:53:46

Just been thinking a little more about this (can you hear the cogs working!)

When using the DT25 on its own in LVM I can get a nice 'thumping' sound out of topology IV. If I then use the POD in place of the preamp using Line6 link and use the Treadplate pre amp setting and match the EQ it doesn't have the same 'thump'.

As far as I know thought it should, shouldn't it?

Using the treadplate full amp setting it is a lot closer.

(Note I have yet to have the opportunity to really drive the output DT25, certainly at the mo all of my testing has been done in LVM)

Lewis



Re: Confused - DT25 and Pod HD 500 patches
by LewisBrunton on 2012-04-12 06:09:46

Ok been doing further research and found this thread: http://line6.com/support/message/331907#331907

It suggests, and I am inclined to believe based on the evidence that when using the DT25 on its own and in LVM the amp changes to a modelled poweramp. However when in LVM and using the PodHD via Line 6 link into the DT25, the DT25 DOES NOT change to a modelled poweramp, instead leaving you with the tube poweramp being driven very little.

The evidence I am basing this on:

1) When using the DT25 on its own in LVM I can get a good Dual Rectifier sound with lots of low end.

2) When using the DT25 and Pod HD via Line 6 link reproducing the same patch settings I get a really weak thin sound using the preamp only model. (When using the full amp model it sounds pretty much like the DT25 on its own).

3) Line 6's own DT25 LVM patches use the full amp models.

Can anyone from Line 6 confirm or deny this?

Many thanks

Lewis



Re: Confused - DT25 and Pod HD 500 patches
by Pezza on 2012-04-12 06:37:33

I've just seen this thread and I'd definitely like to hear Line 6's response on this. Like you, I understood that LVM used modelled DT poweramp whether in standalone OR L6 link POD HD mode. It does make sense that this isn't the case and when using a POD HD via L6 link you need to use full models. It's puzzled me why the POD HDs pre models sound so weak in LVM.

Does this mean that LVM is little more than 'half power' mode when using L6 link?



Re: Confused - DT25 and Pod HD 500 patches
by LewisBrunton on 2012-04-13 03:21:18

I did some testing last night.

I set up two patches on the HD500 with the same EQ settings, 1 with the treadplate pre, 1 with the treadplate full. All other amp settings were left at defaults. No other effects or anything else were added.

I then created the same EQ and amp settings on the DT25.

When comparing the DT25 (in LVM at all times), and the sounds produced by the HD500 into the DT25 via line 6 link I can say that in my opinion the treadplate full patch and the DT25 standalone sounds were the same. The pre patch sounded thinner and lacked bottom end.

So I think that backs up the theory that with the DT25 in LVM and a POD HD connected by line6 link, the DT25 does NOT include poweramp modelling as it does when used on its own in LVM.

Please line 6 comment to confirm or deny this theory

Thanks

Lewis



Re: Confused - DT25 and Pod HD 500 patches
by aeugle on 2012-04-13 06:15:49

Hello Lewis,

do you use cab sim and mic sim?

Yes or no.

Do you use studio/direct, combo power amp or stack power amp out?

Best regards

Thomas



Re: Confused - DT25 and Pod HD 500 patches
by LewisBrunton on 2012-04-13 06:18:06

Hi Thomas

it is default Line 6 link settings so:

1) cab sim yes, mic sim no (mic sim does nothing when plugged in by line 6 link as it defaults to combo power amp)

2) Combo poweramp as above.

Regards

Lewis



Re: Confused - DT25 and Pod HD 500 patches
by hollis1003 on 2012-04-13 12:09:04

So here's what I have gathered.  When using LMV on the DT you are only changing the pre-amps internal to the DT to a full or pre-amp model.

Choosing LVM when the L6 link and a POD HD does not activate any kind of power amp simulation in the DT since you are bypassing the amp simulation in the DT.

If you think about how it works it really makes sense.  I have no documentation to prove it, but since Line 6 seems to recommend using full amp models on the POD HD when in LVM it does make sense.  The POD HDs don't offer any kind of separate power amp modelling.  It's much easier for the DT to have the full and pre versions of the models.

Here is the only deffinition I could find for what they call "Low Power Mode":

What’s low-power mode?

Perfect for recording or quieter gigs, low-power mode lets the HD modeling technology provide both preamp and power amp tones. You can perform with all the grit and gain you need without the volume that normally comes with it.

It does seem that with the DT-25 you are not using tubes in LVM since you can use the direct out and not have a speaker connected but there is never any indication that there is a separate solid state power amp that takes over in LVM.

Hope this helps clear some things up for people.



Re: Confused - DT25 and Pod HD 500 patches
by LewisBrunton on 2012-04-14 01:21:44

I think we have hit on what is actually happening, but I am not sure if it specifically makes sense in terms of the advertising blurb from Line 6.

Effectively when the pod hd is used with the dt25 in normal mode it uses the hd preamp and leaves the power amp to the dt25. So we all have assumed that when using LVM the same situation wold apply - hd does the preamp and leaves the power amp to the dt25, which is operating in LVM..... Except it isn't!

To be honest I don't mind too much. Yes it is a hassle in that you have to maintain two sets of patches if you want to use both modes, but it would be useful to be told by line 6 that we are not going mad. At least that way any new users can go straight to creating good sounds and not have to go through a period of guesswork, which in some cases may lead to dissatisfaction and them selling the amp / pedal or both!

Lewis



Re: Confused - DT25 and Pod HD 500 patches
by LewisBrunton on 2012-04-15 23:51:21

Bump!

for someone from Line 6 to comment



Re: Confused - DT25 and Pod HD 500 patches
by Pezza on 2012-04-16 03:26:29

Lewis

I thought I'd come back to this thread as it's most relevant!

As regards whether or not the DT amp has more than 4 power amp models (for LVM); I did think that was the case, but I'm beginning to think that the DT (in LVM) just contains and uses (in standalone mode) the same 4 full amp models as the POD HD (ie AC30TB, Tread etc) and so the reason it doesn't use them with POD/L6 link is that it's best to use whichever full amp is on the POD, rather than POD pre into one of 4 'generic' DT power amps (which may or may not exist). (It may also be to do with the position of POD fx etc after the pre, but maybe L6 link can do that anyway).

This makes me also query how the DT configures itself in full power mode. Does it simply select voicing/class/pentode or triode or are there other configurations relating to the POD HD models? This quote from the L6 link conectivity guide makes me think the DT configures other stuff behind the scenes:

"The Super O, Twed B-man, A-15 and Brit Plexi J-45 share an aspect (their analog B+ voltage) that differs from the other POD HD Amp Models, which can also be a source of disruption. To minimize this disruption, limit the cases where you switch between one of these Amp Models and one of the other POD Amp models."

It would be nice if Line 6 would make things a bit clearer here.



Re: Confused - DT25 and Pod HD 500 patches
by LewisBrunton on 2012-04-16 03:50:53

The last paragraph you quoted I think it to do with channel switching, in that if you switch between 1 of those amps and one of the others the difference in settings can cause an audible pop.

Your theory on the LVM poweramp issue is interesting, but if Line 6 went to the trouble of creating an analogue poweramp with multiple configurations that would in many cases be used with a pod HD it would be sensible to assume that they would enable similar multiple configuration poweramp modelling in LVM mode. Indeed the following paragraph from section 4.3 of the Coonectivity guide even suggests it:

Pull the Master Volume knob on DT50, or use the switch on the back of DT25 to toggle the Low Volume Mode (LVM) “On.” The LVM functions independently of POD HD and significantly lowers the overall DT amplifier’s volume level, which can be very handy for recording or “bedroom” playing! When LVM is active, the DT amplifier utilizes internal power amp modeling to simulate the tonality and distortion which is otherwise only achievable at loud volumes.

To be honest we have a lot of what ifs, and no current answers from Line 6. I'm hoping they can give us an answer before I turn blue from holding my breath

Lewis



Re: Confused - DT25 and Pod HD 500 patches
by LewisBrunton on 2012-04-23 05:34:30

I'm still hoping that someone from Line 6 can comment on the assumptions that we have made.........



Re: Confused - DT25 and Pod HD 500 patches
by hollis1003 on 2012-04-23 07:58:50

Don't hold your breath.  There have been things, too numerous to mention that Line 6 has not responded to in any way and we are left to assume.

I am extremely happy with how my POD HD 500 and DT-50 HD sound, don't get me wrong.  But it would really be nice to get answers to our questions.



Re: Confused - DT25 and Pod HD 500 patches
by Stratman82 on 2012-08-12 12:51:54

I have to disagree.

I think that there must be an element of poweramp modelling from the DT in LVM even with a pod HD unit connected via L6 Link. My PRE patches (HD300) all sound much better in LVM than they do if I retain the same settings but switch the patch to FULL on pod. Really, when I switch the patches to FULL they sound awful, completely unusable- thin, buzzy and electronic.

Clearly there is a tonal difference in LVM with or without the pod HD connected. If there wasn't there would be no point in paying extra for a tube amp like the DT25, we'd all be better off hooking a pod directly to some speakers. Some of the tonal difference we hear will be related to a difference in volume alone. Plus, the bonus is that I only require one set of (PRE) patches and don't have to maintain a FULL set as well.

I've heard some experts in other discussions say that the DT "powers down" to 12 watts in LVM but still uses the poweramp tubes to drive the speaker. This would go along with my assertion that my patches still sound better in PRE mode. However the tubes are bypassed completely if using the XLR external out with the amp in standby- this would affect your tone for recording by that method.

Certainly, at present, I'm happy to use the tone I acheive in LVM rather than opt for an expensive attenuator.



Re: Confused - DT25 and Pod HD 500 patches
by Stratman82 on 2012-12-29 15:06:19

Actually no longer sure I'm right here. I've been using FULL patches much more often- direct to headphones from the HD300 with dt25 switched off. This is mainly due to neighbours complaining about the amps volume! I'm getting some really phenomenal tones now from the HD unit itself, takes a bit of tweaking and the factory presets arent great but the fender amps in particular are awesome with some excellent blues rock sounds (will post to custom tone soon).

I'm actually finding that playing through the amp via line 6 with the amp in full power mode, the patches sound better in FULL rather than preamp mode! I guess it's because I can't crank the amp loud enough to get enough power amp tube distortion (I guess I'd need the amp volume to match the FULL patch which is usually too loud). Plus I'm probably getting too used to the fully modelled tones through headphones.

I'd previously been using PRE patches in LVM but I assume that my newer, better attempts at FULL patches will now also sound better in LVM. So I stand corrected!




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