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XD-V75 and Shure Sm 58 and Beta 58 Capsules: Which Dynamic Filter for Singing.
by beastofbourbon on 2012-05-16 00:57:19

What's your opinion? OFF,  NORM or TALK.

Thanks in Advance, Geoff



Re: XD-V75 and Shure Sm 58 and Beta 58 Capsules: Which Dynamic Filter for Singing.
by Sheriton on 2012-05-16 03:33:32

Personally, I always turn off the filter.

When I bought my first Line6 system, the filter was enabled by default. Until I read the instructions, I though it was faulty as there was some very odd sounding pumping going on. I'm sure others have found uses for them in some contexts but for me, I don't want a mic to mess with the dynamics in any way so it stays off.



Re: XD-V75 and Shure Sm 58 and Beta 58 Capsules: Which Dynamic Filter for Singing.
by dboomer on 2012-05-16 08:59:13

Depends on the application. 

For vocal music with a moderate amount of sound on the stage the "norm" position will offer some reduction of unwanted background noise and stage footfall.  If you are "up on the mic' I can never hear it operate.

If you are working on a very silent stage with a quite singer or speaker that is not up on the mic you may hear it working.  This also happens with lav use when the mic is far away from the mouth.  If you actually hear it working then you can just switch it off (not always an option on other brands with a similar feature).

The 'talk' mode is best used when the input is speech only and a little tonal loss can be tolerated.



Re: XD-V75 and Shure Sm 58 and Beta 58 Capsules: Which Dynamic Filter for Singing.
by beastofbourbon on 2012-05-16 11:12:52

Thanks Sheriton,

I'll try it out.



Re: XD-V75 and Shure Sm 58 and Beta 58 Capsules: Which Dynamic Filter for Singing.
by RonMarton on 2012-05-16 11:56:21

As ever, Don Boomer's reply is concise, accurate and informative, Geoff...

...But as you asked for "opinion", I tend to lean towards Sheriton's "turn off" for a lead singer or soloist who's used to "working" a correctly chosen, high quality mic. That type of experienced vocalist may well be disturbed by the "filter" attenuating quiet phrasing.

However Don's "depends on the application" is the "gold standard" definitive answer, as I did find the "Norm" setting really handy for automating the "tightening" of spill from the individual THH12 handhelds covering a trio of backing vocalists, when I didn't have the benefit of rehearsal to note when a given backing singer wasn't contributing.

To my ears, (all of this being highly subjective) the "Talk" mode is too harsh for most things musical, but (much to my surprise) I found it really effective for automating the contribution from a parade-ground bugler's mike into a large-acreage outdoor PA system.

In this case the mic in question (wind-gagged and Rode-Blimped Neumann KMR-81i into a TBP12 via a Denecke PS-2 battery phantom supply) was largely there to provide the instrument with extra range and add atmospheric reverb. The combination of this artificial reverb (longish pre-delayed Yamaha SPX "Plate") with not much amplification being needed, effectively masked the "gating" inherent in the "Talk" mode.

I have, however, found the "Talk" mode to be a real "life saver" in marathon multi-mike events such as teleconferences, where it's seamlessly facilitated random contributions from eight TBP12'd delegates seated on stage, each wearing a headworn omni. (Samson SE50) It's also really useful for automating things such as a "fairground" announcer's mic.



Re: XD-V75 and Shure Sm 58 and Beta 58 Capsules: Which Dynamic Filter for Singing.
by chrispeters29 on 2012-05-19 09:49:42

well i can ONLY use the talk filter on my mic i am a live singer using backing tracks .

the off and norm position provide MUCH too much feedback at loud volumes .unbearable .

And yeah the heil pr35 head loses a little quality when in "talk" mode , but the other filters are no good.



Re: XD-V75 and Shure Sm 58 and Beta 58 Capsules: Which Dynamic Filter for Singing.
by RonMarton on 2012-05-19 19:46:06

That feedback situation seems really odd to me, Chris...

Because, in my experience, neither Line 6's "Talk" nor "Norm" modes should be required for shatteringly loud "onset of pain" levels to be achieved from an RC-35 capsule via monitors and an FOH rig that are correctly set.

Please forgive me if I'm butting in with what you already know, but maybe some others will find my four observations helpful.

The first is that Bob Heil's great (and rapidly becoming legendary) PR-35 cabled mic has varying degrees of switchable bass cut available for the output from this very capsule.

This is specifically because the 35 capsule has a silky smooth accuracy in its bass, (an accuracy and response that extends far lower than other dynamic cardioids of a similar price) ...so he's included these filters in anticipation of "fog horn" or "whoomp" feedback problems that may be encountered (should it be used un-filtered) at "SM/Beta 58" levels.

My second observation arises from the first.

It's my feeling that your use of the XD-V's dynamic "Talk" processing may well be a "work around" that arises from the absence of such high-pass filtering in your signal path.

While the digital wizardry inherent in Line 6's amazing "Talk/Norm" processing does indeed give rise to dynamic variation of bass, it also does far more than that. It's not designed for the control of feedback ...and I fear that your manner of using it could reduce the full expressive control that a THH12 with an RC-35 can grant a vocalist. (I guess you've hinted as much.)

My third would be to strenuously recommend investigation of the actual location of your monitor in relation to the cardioid pickup pattern of the RC-35. Your monitor must be in the "polar pattern suck-out" or "dead" spot where the mic has least sensitivity.

To find this, hold or mount the handheld where it'd be when you're singing. The barrel of the mic is now effectively "pointing at" this dead spot, so your monitor speaker needs to be in line with this barrel and below the mic, directly opposite (and pretty much aiming at) the rubber Line 6 badge at the end of the THH12's screw-on battery cap.

Finally, (although this almost certainly doesn't apply to you) "choking" any directional capsule by covering part of its grille with a hand will negate its feedback rejection. A sure-fire recipe for "whoomp and whistles".

Line 6's handhelds are beautifully designed in this regard, as they've gone to great lengths to achieve a weight distribution (with batteries loaded) that makes them feel "right" when held from a "two-thirds up" point that's clear of both capsule and transmitting antenna.    



Re: XD-V75 and Shure Sm 58 and Beta 58 Capsules: Which Dynamic Filter for Singing.
by dboomer on 2012-05-20 12:49:12

Hey Chris

The environment filters are not intended to aid in feedback prevention.  They really only work when the mic is inactive. They are all out of the circuit when a moderate amount of sound level hits the mic capsule.



Re: XD-V75 and Shure Sm 58 and Beta 58 Capsules: Which Dynamic Filter for Singing.
by chrispeters29 on 2012-05-20 16:39:23

thanks for the replies , and i know its a weird one , i have successfully gigged the mic with the filter "off" and i agree it sounds much better .

But the gain before feedback is weirdly horrendous. where in talk mode , i can stand real close to the speakers when really loud , without any feedback.



Re: XD-V75 and Shure Sm 58 and Beta 58 Capsules: Which Dynamic Filter for Singing.
by RonMarton on 2012-05-20 18:12:03

Gee, Chris...

You're being "robbed", mate !

Not quite a back-alley mugging, ...but you're only getting third-rate "value" from all the cash, time and trouble you've spent on matching a first-rate mic to a first-rate wireless system.

Well, partner, the Audio Marshall and his deputies ain't about to let no robbery keep happenin' in this territory, no sirree, Bob!

"...Aw, shucks, Marshall. ...Me hands. ...Me hands. ...They ain't as fast as they used to be, ...but I can still shoot me a rifle, GODDAMMIT !"

If you were to let us know details of your "normal" full set-up for a gig, there might be something we can offer in order to restore at least some of that hard-earned value.

It'd be great if you could supply a short, written "snapshot" of typical gigs...

...Things like the makes and models of mixer/s, amp/s and speaker/s, along with an idea of layout/s, with particular attention to where and how you currently sing in relation to the speaker/s.  

Then, (maybe) mate, ...we kin turn thet wilderness into a garden.



Re: XD-V75 and Shure Sm 58 and Beta 58 Capsules: Which Dynamic Filter for Singing.
by dboomer on 2012-05-21 10:16:52

Not a big mystery.  You are simply chopping off a lot of lower frequency material.  It will work, but it would be better controlled using a parametric EQ and dialing in only those frequencies that are problematic instead of everything below a few hundred Hertz.

That said ... if you're happy with then keep using it.



Re: XD-V75 and Shure Sm 58 and Beta 58 Capsules: Which Dynamic Filter for Singing.
by chrispeters29 on 2012-05-22 10:39:38

hi ron... the desk is Dynacord CMS - 1000  ..... the speakers are active QSC K12s . i tend to mic eat lol ....

venues are on average 100- 150 capacity..i have knocked the filter off for now and must admit i come across no troublesome venues as yet .... i suppose i have the option to knock the filter on in bad situations so its all good ... i still reckon this is the BEST mic i have used by far and i have used sennheiser G3 ..shure PGX systems , this is a real winner , well done line 6 ... now if i could afford that new line 6 touchscreen mixer ................................hahahahaha



Re: XD-V75 and Shure Sm 58 and Beta 58 Capsules: Which Dynamic Filter for Singing.
by RonMarton on 2012-05-22 10:53:33

Fabulous rig, mate !

Are you the person operating the mixer, Chris ?



Re: XD-V75 and Shure Sm 58 and Beta 58 Capsules: Which Dynamic Filter for Singing.
by chrispeters29 on 2012-05-22 16:45:07

i am mate , my wife sits in the audience with the usual sign language for the first track hahahah



Re: XD-V75 and Shure Sm 58 and Beta 58 Capsules: Which Dynamic Filter for Singing.
by RonMarton on 2012-05-22 17:22:16

I daren't ask which of the two of you are the Manager, Chris...

But as you're actually the vocalist, band, sound engineer and road crew, I'll post a few (hopefully helpful, or even helpfully hopeful) ideas in a private message that you'll have the option of sharing with your Producer, FOH Liaison and Location Supervisor.

Apologies in advance, should they be things you already know and/or have tried and dismissed, but I reckon the only damage that may arise would be the potential spending of a little more cash for "bits" that might enable you to gain full value from the considerable investment that both of you have already made.     



Re: XD-V75 and Shure Sm 58 and Beta 58 Capsules: Which Dynamic Filter for Singing.
by maidenc on 2012-10-20 12:04:11

Hi I have been reading all the logs, I haven't yet purchased a Line 6 XD-V75 radio mic but I am very intrested.  I currently have an Audix OM5 RAD365 radio system and 2 x Bose L1 Mk2 speaker system with a Bose mixer.  The current Audix OM5 mic is great, works brilliant with my Bose system and no feedback.  The Audix mic is renowed for low feedback, previous mic I bought had a a lot of feedback with the Bose system.  This is my dileama I will have to change my mic shortly because UK changing the channel frequency but I still want something that will mimic my Audix OM5 mic and sound without feedback.  The Line 6 has the Audix OM5 built into it so am I right to assume the quality of sound is the same and no feedback - what do you guys think - can you give me some advice do I take the plunge and buy the Line 6 XD-V75?

Thanks Craig



Re: XD-V75 and Shure Sm 58 and Beta 58 Capsules: Which Dynamic Filter for Singing.
by RonMarton on 2012-10-20 17:50:01

That Bose L1 system has polarized the audio community from the moment of its first release, Craig...

People seem to either love it or hate it.

Me? ...I wasn't a big fan of the first release Mk.1, as I felt it was far too "application specific", ...meaning that I thought it brilliant at solving the problems that are unique to what I call "café soloists", but mostly failed to address the rest of us.

However, I did become a "fan" on the release of Bose's Tone Match Engine system in your mixer-equipped Mk.2 version, as the "plug and play" adaptability inherent in that system's modeling software remained un-matched in the audio world, right up until Line 6's revolutionary StageScape System and M20d mixer changed the game forever.

I'm also a big fan (and owner) of Audix mics and (from actual personal experience) can assure you that, with the XD-V75 receiver at "default" settings, Line 6's OM5 "model" is almost indistinguishable from a cabled Audix OM5, both in the "character" of its sound and its gain structure,

BUT

(And it's a very important "but") the feedback-killing "dead zone" (polar pattern) of the actual capsule in the Line 6 handheld does differ from that of an original Audix OM5 capsule.

I reckon it's not quite as "tight" in its "three-quarters off-axis" rejection as the Audix, but does reject "behind the mic" sound every bit as well (or maybe even better than) the cabled original, but (surprisingly) there's far less difference than I'd expected in terms of feedback when using either with line arrays, be they the Bose L1's, HK Audio Elements or LD Systems Maui 28's.

So I'd be very surprised if you weren't delighted after updating to an XD-V75 system, ...especially with the unique control afforded by its "Norm dynamic filter" setting as well as its glorious transparency.

In evaluating these comments, bear in mind that I'm neither affilliated with, nor do I have any particular loyalty to, Line 6 or any other manufacturer.



Re: XD-V75 and Shure Sm 58 and Beta 58 Capsules: Which Dynamic Filter for Singing.
by maidenc on 2012-10-21 04:57:03

Thank you for your feedback, I value your opinion espeically as you understand the Bose system, Mixer and you have gigged with Audix mic's. 

This was mainly my only concern that of feedback, I realise I can adjust eq slightly to reduce this but I want to keep the tones of the Audix OM5 as well.  Its a shame there isn't a 28 day return policy or something like that so I could try it and gig with it.  Nevertheless, basically you are saying it's the same as the Audix OM5 mic I wont be able to tell the difference, to be honest a slight difference wouldn't have matter so much anyway, so if you saying it's pretty much the same as, then I'm happy about that point. 

You are also saying that there are differences between the Audix Mic and the XD regarding feedback but on the whole the XD is good in it's own right and causes little feedback anyway even thouight it's not strictly like for like as the Audix OM5, plus I can tweak a little when I get the XD anyway, but it sounds like there isn't going to be much feedback issues. 

The only thing that put me off original was in this log where one of the guys mentioned that he was having feedback issues and he was having to switch the 'talk' filter on to reduce the feedback issue which then affected the quality of sound - althought that is what I was searching for originally too due to my past experience with previous mic's when using the Bose system. 

Thanks for your feedback and input - kind Regards, Craig



Re: XD-V75 and Shure Sm 58 and Beta 58 Capsules: Which Dynamic Filter for Singing.
by RonMarton on 2012-10-21 16:26:50

Always a pleasure (and a privilege to be able) to "give back" the sort of assistance I received when I was starting out in this game half a century ago, Craig.

After my response to his final posting in this conversation, chrispeters29 ("Talk" filter vs feedback) and I subsequently "workshopped" his actual set-up via private messages. I believe all is now well, as it's been months since I last heard from him.

My apologies for possibly not being as clear as I should have been in answering your query, so I'll try again.

In a direct "A to B swap" between a cabled Audix OM5 and Line 6's "OM5" model in the XD-V75, the exact orientation of the mic for best gain before feedback is the main difference you may notice.

Another, albeit more subtle, difference is the variation in sound that's induced when "working" the two capsules at different distances from the vocalist's mouth.

Both exhibit more bass up close, but the Line 6 handheld's "ramping up" of that proximity effect happens over a slightly wider range and starts from slightly further out.

That said, when "blind" testing, (asking folks to turn around while swapping from one to the other) I've not yet found anyone who could reliably pick which was in use and I could easily "convince myself" either way!

The same for Shure SM58 and beta58 comparisons that I tried, which makes me very confident of all the models in Line 6's range.

Given that you and I use our gear in a huge variety of "real world" set-ups , (as opposed to audiophile test labs) I'd bet that any mic re-orientation involved in your swap to the XD-V75 "version" would pretty much happen intuitively and pass largely un-noticed.

Should you, however, be able to compare your trusty old RAD360/OM5 UHF analog kit with a cabled OM5, you will definitely notice the improvements granted by the cable as far as "openness" and detail at both ends of the frequency spectrum.

The cabled OM5 is also free from any of the dynamic variations ("squeezing") of the sound that are forced on UHF radio mics by virtue of the companding necessary to cope with the limitations of any analog wireless transmission system.

All of those benefits that the cabled OM5 has over the UHF wireless version apply equally to Line 6's XD-V "model" of that mic.

It's also my opinion that the clear dispersion of your Bose rig is a great way to exploit them (and the XD-V system's other features) to full effect.  



Re: XD-V75 and Shure Sm 58 and Beta 58 Capsules: Which Dynamic Filter for Singing.
by maidenc on 2012-10-22 08:52:02

Hi,

Thanks again.

I might take you up on some more advice when I get the new mic I will probably buy it in the next few weeks.

I'll let you know how I get on.

Thanks again for all the help and advice, much appriciated.

Kind Regards,

Craig



Re: XD-V75 and Shure Sm 58 and Beta 58 Capsules: Which Dynamic Filter for Singing.
by RonMarton on 2012-10-22 13:28:02

You're always welcome, Craig...

But for others who might be researching a similar issue, it'd be helpful if you'd define your next enquiry as a fresh discussion thread by using the "New" button, (next to your avatar at the top) with its own concise title and relevant tags.

All the very best,

RON.




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