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How to create a detuned 12 string acoustic
by Martinyp on 2012-06-03 06:47:42

When I select one of the acoustic 12 string models on my JTV89 it sounds really good played through both studio monitors (from the 1/4" outputs on the HD500) and also through headphones.

I have the guitar tab for a song which says it should be played on a 12 string acoustic tuned down 1/2 a step.

With the 12 string acoustic model selected I turned the tuning knob on the JTV to 1/2 step down but it just sounds all wrong.

I know it is something to do with the 'virtual' strings being added by the JTV to create the 12 string model as I can quite happily detune any of the 6 string guitar models using the tuning knob on the guitar.

I tried using the workbench software but only managed to achieve the same result as using the tuning knob on the JTV.

Any ideas?



Re: How to create a detuned 12 string acoustic
by silverhead on 2012-06-03 08:01:09

What version of JTV firmware are you running? There was a problem with alternate tunings of acoustic models that was fixed in firmware v1.82. If you have not updated you may find that doing so will solve the problem.

If not, it may just not be possible to have an alternate tuning on a 12-string model. I know that this was the case in pre-JTV Variaxes; the 12-string models were themselves an alternate tuning of a 6-string model and you couldn't apply two alternate tunings within the same model. I frankly don't know if the JTV technology now supports that - I haven't tried it, but I'm hopefult that v1.82 will solve your problem.

Perhaps others can clarify?



Re: How to create a detuned 12 string acoustic
by dkemusic on 2012-06-03 11:21:35

You are probably just hearing the standard tuned strings along with the alt tuning.  With an HD500 you may also have the unit set to both mag's on 1 channel and on the other model.  For the former you'll need to turn up the volume of your amp loud enough to drown out the strings, or use headphones, for the latter I'll defer to some one who has an HD500 and knows how to set it up.

Dan



Re: How to create a detuned 12 string acoustic
by Martinyp on 2012-06-03 11:33:14

The JTV has the latest firmware 1.82 installed. When I thought about your answer it made sense that it probably won't be possible unless the 12 string model was capable of creating two alternate tunings of the original 6 guitar strings and only making the altered strings audible. Maybe in a future firmware update this will be possible.



Re: How to create a detuned 12 string acoustic
by daferalo on 2012-06-03 18:24:04

With my JTV 59, I am able to detune a 12-string acoustic guitar model 1/2 step down. I do it when I play "wanted dead or alive" from Bon Jovi, and it sounds very nice. I do it with the guitar tunning knob, but I have not tried yet with the new capabilities of POD HD 500 in regards to detuning the JTV, but I would not expect to have a problem.

There must be something wrong with the firmware in your guitar. Try to reinstall the firmware to see if the problem dissapears. If not, you might have a hardware problem.

Best Regards,

Daf



Re: How to create a detuned 12 string acoustic
by MerlinFL on 2012-06-04 14:27:33

Than I guess it comes down to one or both of these answers already given. 

  1. You need top upgrade to 1.82 if you are using 1.81
  2. You are hearing the physical strings because you aren't playing loud enough to cover up the physical string tuning.

Suggestion to learn once and for all which it might be...Try recording an acoustic 12-string patch that you think sounds bad.  Play it back and if it still sounds bad, then you have 1.81 software which you should try doing the same recording test using the Rick 12-string electric guitar models.

If you hear a problem with the acoustic models, but not with the electric 12-string models, then the answer is at least # 1 if not both.

If both acoustic and electric 12-string patches sound fine, then your correct answer is answer # 2.

If all still sounding badly, you have a  bigger problem than I suspect.

It would be great if you would post your results so we can know if you've gotten correct answers or are still having trouble.



Re: How to create a detuned 12 string acoustic
by Martinyp on 2012-06-06 06:52:41

Definately running with firmware 1.82. I have even reinstalled it in case there had been any installation problems. I am playing through decent sound isolating headphones so I am definately not hearing the guitar strings acoustically. This had been an issue when playing through studio monitors (even really loudly) but since using the headphones everything has been good.

Referring to my original answer to silverhead. I understand and agree with his answer to me.

it may just not be possible to have an alternate tuning on a 12-string model. I know that this was the case in pre-JTV Variaxes; the 12-string models were themselves an alternate tuning of a 6-string model and you couldn't apply two alternate tunings within the same model. I frankly don't know if the JTV technology now supports that - I haven't tried it,

Can MerlinFL or daferalo explain how they are managing to detune a 12 string model? Do you have a Variax model file you can share?



Re: How to create a detuned 12 string acoustic
by silverhead on 2012-06-06 07:10:51

I'm just guessing here, but you might try the following (I'm not at my equipment right now):

- connect your JTV to the HD500 via VDI

- start HD500 Edit (you could do it on the HD500 itself but it's easier using the editor)

- select a 12-string model on the JTV and set the Tuning knob to Model so that the alternate tuning of the 12-string is delivered to the HD500

- select any preset on the HD500; a clean acoustic guitar factory preset might be best

- in the Mixer section of HD500 Edit, use the Detune feature in the Variax area to try to apply a second alternate tuning to the 12-string model

Let us know if this works.



Re: How to create a detuned 12 string acoustic
by MerlinFL on 2012-06-06 11:09:13

Hi Martin - thank you for the more detailed info about your software and situation.

And this is not a competition to get your problem solved.  Silverhead knows of what he writes and so do I.  We just have different methods which doesn't invalidate either of our suggestions.

I'll try to give you the simplest thing to try to alt tune your 12-string patches acoustic or electric.  My answer is NOT to be taken in any way other than starting from the "top" of your situation and working through it.  My hope is that your problem will be a relatively simple one, but I canpromise that I will give you every possible method to deal with your JTV/HD500 situation until you are as happy as I can get you.

In all seriousness and not being a smart-a$$ - without using the HD500, or if you must use the HD500, dial up a very simple patch with or without an amp.  If that patch has a fair amount of gain to cause distortion, please just lower the gain knob until it calms down enough to sound clean or at least mostly clean for the purpose of just trying the guitar models and alt tuning.  Fair enough?

With or without the HD500 connected by 1/4" or VDI - also for this example, none of this should make a difference...

I just remembered to make certain to say this first - be certain your alt tuning knob on the guitar is set to MODEL.  If it's set to anything else, my test instructions will not work as the guitar tuning knob OVERRIDES anything built into the guitar.  And no, I'm not yelling with the caps - just emphasizing.  Sorry to mention this but I've been criticized about it before.  I hope you'll understand I'm not yelling at any point in this attempt to help.

  • Dial up any 12-string electric or acoustic patch you want just to try getting an alternate tuning of a 12-string model..
  • Once you've gotten any 12-string patch, go to the guitars alt tun knob and switch it from MODEL to 1/2 step down to start. Please skip over the first two alt tuning selections of Standard and Drop D
  • Play the guitar and listen with whatever you feel will block out COMPLETELY
  • The sound of the physical strings from being heard by your ears.  Honestly, the physical string tuning is much louder and readily heard by your ears much louder than it might seem with an "unplugged" electric guitar.
  • If you have any ability to record the guitars output direct by itself or using the HD500 into any recording device that is NOT using a physical microphone which would also pick up the physical string sound like you ear does.
  • After trying all or as many of these simple steps play back the bit your recorded, or if nothing to record with...please go with what your ears heard.

  • These steps only applicable if tested using the HD500...please include in your post after testing, all information on the HOME page by holding down the HOME button until it shows you page 1 of 10.  HD500 should be running 2.02 software to be up to date as your guitar is running 1.82.  Please report info shown on pages 3 & 4, & pages 7 & 8.
  • Please be certain that whatever patch you choose on the HD500 is NOT set to "CUSTOM" on page 8 Variax settings.

  • Just to be VERY specific about the order of this...turn model knob to Acoustic or Rickenbacker bank, then to position 2 or 4 on either of those banks to access the 12-string models.  THEN use the Alt tuning knob to change the tuning down to 1/2 step.  For the sake of this test, please DO NOT change tuning BEFORE changing to a 12-string model.



After doing this much, please post your findings here and what you did use as in..the JTV alone or the combination of JTV.HD500 and my requested HD500 settings.

Take care,

Neal



Re: How to create a detuned 12 string acoustic
by Martinyp on 2012-06-06 12:58:01

Problem solved.

Input 1 on the POD was set to Variax mags and Input 2 was set to Variax. So even though I couldn't hear the strings acoustically I was still hearing them in my headphones from the magnetic pickups.

I just have to decide if I prefer the sound of two variax inputs panned hard left / right or a single variax with the second input on the POD set to something I dont use (like a mic) and panning everything dead centre.

Thanks guys.



Re: How to create a detuned 12 string acoustic
by MerlinFL on 2012-06-06 13:06:36

AWESOME - glad you got it worked out and now you can move on to enjoying your gear and exploring all it's capabilities!!

All the best and take care,

Neal




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