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This was my thread to say good bye - it is now a math lesson about the Workbench software. This was not what I planned for this thread.
by MerlinFL on 2012-06-11 13:28:55

Simply put - I'm not posting publicly any further as the majority of what was supposed to be a farewell and my reason for it has turned into an ugly example of bullying, Apathy, mis-construed intentions, mis-quotations, and just plain hostility on the part of several people and myself in defending my right to think and have an opinion.

I regret some, but not all of what I have written and especially my personal attack on Karl.  80% of which was not called for as my emotions had gotten the better of me for reason shown here and many others in my personal life that I lost control off as my life has been quite stressful over the past several months.  Not an excuse, just offering this as a bit of clarity for my improper behavior to which I have apologized to him here and privately.  He has graciously accepted my portion of my apology to which I am grateful.  I thanked him publicly already as well as privately as stated, but wish to apologize again to Karl and to those who had the misfortune to read my uncalled for portions written here I can't simply delete as I have been able to do on this initial thread post. 

Apparently no one I've met here on this site is in the same set of life situations I'm faced with in my personal life as I'm not in anyone elses.  Plus perhaps noone other than I have been treated in the manner many have chosen to treat me based on a fraction of the facts?  Yet I will not offer any apology to those who comment without understanding the whole picture before attacking, insulting, belittling, and some who are simply cruel and get plesure from it.  I'm only just referring to the events of THIS specific occurance.  How it started and what happened to push me over the edge.  How and why I was attacked by someone previously unknown to anyone here - especially myself on a completely different thread where I had tried to understand and help answer a question that had me very confused, but tried to give the answer I thought was what was wanted.  I much later see from that same persons own reply to his own question on his own thread and I would never have guessed the answer he wanted as well as i could not have answered it as it was all mathematical equasions derived from sophiticated Hi tech testing equipment I would expect those who write or analyze computer code wold have and know how to use.

I'm not someone like this "Anonyrat" person who started attacking me on MY thread and led to what followed all that should have stayed on HIS THREAD.  Now things are calm, and my thread has been taken over by Mathmeticians and turned into a super high tech Q&A session dissecting the difference between the physical properties of the Workbench software as well as delving into areas completely out of my league with all discussions that follow that change in topic.

However, while I patiently wait for this entire thread to be removed by Line 6 Forum monitors as nothing has been done after the first nasty post by Anonyrat was reported as a buse using the "Report Abuse" button...I wanted to say aside from leaving the public posts...I'll always be available to help privately through PM and then moving to using my direct email address if anyone wishes my assistance, suggestions, recommendations, and even reqyested video demos for the gear listed below which I currently use and am familiar enough to be of help to any who need it.

The Line 6 gear I am well-versed on is listed below...

  • Vetta with FBV Longboard
  • Variax 700 electric model
  • TonePort UX8 & POD FARM 2.5/Gearbox
  • POD X3 PRO
  • Workbench editing software for all Variax guitar models
  • JTV-59 or JTV-89 (US versions or Korean versions)
  • POD HD500 & EDIT
  • POD HD PRO & EDIT
  • DT50 2x12
  • DT50 1x12

This is a current list of the Line 6 gear I have and use regularly.  I no plans to be buying any new produced by Line 6 including the PA gear which I had planned on at least buying the StageScape Mixer just to try it out.  I can't do this as I had planned...but I can help if anyone wishes to message me.

My best wishes to all,

Neal

DSC02294-A.jpg

Message was edited by: Neal Van



Re: This is goodbye & a finish to my free assistance. I did gladly sign up years ago, but I'm finished now.
by jholmgren on 2012-06-11 15:24:30

Neal,

I hope you reconsider. I place a great value on the advice/expertise of many folks that provide input on this forum, regardless of the "Expert User" status. I've been helped tremendously by users with less than 10 posts, Expert Users with over 5,000 posts, Line 6 Employees, and everyone in between. The oposite has also been true. I've seen condescending and/or "I don't care about your problem" responses by people in every category as well.

While I can understand your frustration, I hope you "take a deep breath", "count to ten", "sleep on it" (whatever it takes), and return. I value your input, even if you never have "Expert User" next to your name, and hope you stay a part of the community.



Re: This is goodbye & a finish to my free assistance. I did gladly sign up years ago, but I'm finished now.
by MerlinFL on 2012-06-11 15:57:26

Thank you for such a for reasonable and especially kind post to this final post of mine.

I agree with your assessment of the "tags" and where help can come from that has nothing to do with a tagged name or not.

My reasons for resigning from the forum is for the reasons I've written here.  I don't expect nearly anyone not directly involved with my specific situation or past two weeks of personal communications with those employed by Line 6.  But it is those communications and what they have told me that cause me to take this action.

As I wrote at the end, if anyone has a question about the gear I have and can give qualified answer or suggestion about, please PM me and I'll do my best to help.

So ya see - I'm not abandoning those people who want help from me, I'm just removing myself from the community in general and keeping my information to myself and top those who contact me directly.

I can't speak about anything that is covered under the NDA (Non Disclosure Agreement) I've signed with Line 6.  But I am fairly certain that any future testing of gear not yet released to the public will no longer have me on those teams because apparently I'm too passionate and too emotional about these products and it causes problems with some of the others.  Funny thing about this concern - I thought being passionate and emotionally involved with a company's products would be a DESIRED QUALITY, not a SHUNNED ONE.  Alas, this is who I am and when I'm invested into a project of any kind, I get fired up, I get very...well you get the idea.

Let me ask ya just for the heck of it...

  • Have you seen many of my posts?
  • If so, what have you thought of them?
  • Have you ever seen me argue or be nasty toward anyone on any posts?
  • If yes, was I the one who started any incident or just defended myself?
  • If Line 6 were your company, would you think it a good idea to have me as one of the product representatives going around teaching at stores or giving classes about how all this new Dream Rig gear works?
  • If Line 6 were your company, would you want me as one of the people helping design and test new products to ensure that it would be suitable for the target market?
  • If Line 6 were your company, would you have the least bit of concern that I might negatively represent your company?

Take care and thanks for your kind words,

Neal



Re: This is goodbye & a finish to my free assistance. I did gladly sign up years ago, but I'm finished now.
by Leftzilla on 2012-06-12 09:21:10

I have always found your posts to be very helpful and insightful.  Thank you.

Unfortunately people read emotional content into printed word, such as email, txts etc that may or may not be there.  Respectfully I would suggest that you may have inadvertantly put a lightning rod out for negative or bashing replies



Re: This is goodbye & a finish to my free assistance. I did gladly sign up years ago, but I'm finished now.
by MerlinFL on 2012-06-12 10:23:02

Thanks for your insight, but I simply am who I am.  I hate the written word as it leaves to much room for the readers interpretation.  I'm old school - I'd rather speak and type.  Many other are much better at it than I am, so I'm outta here. I do not need the unwanted BS that others seem to have in abundance and nothing better to do with their time.

Thanks for your opinion - Take care,

Neal



Re: This is goodbye & a finish to my free assistance. I did gladly sign up years ago, but I'm finished now.
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2012-06-12 10:35:08

MerlinFL wrote:

BUT again did any of these so-called Experts show up and try to help?  NO. 

This is just a guess, but with all your rants against the "experts" did you consider that maybe they don't want to reply to any threads where you are part of the conversation?

I mean, Neal's got it.  He's an expert.  Problem is handled. Why should we reply?



Re: This is goodbye & a finish to my free assistance. I did gladly sign up years ago, but I'm finished now.
by DrFunk on 2012-06-12 13:10:59

Hi Neal and Line 6!

It is a little painful watching the emotional rollercoaster go by...but I find everything that is happening on Line 6 forums to be interesting and helpful, although apparently not all is meant to be only helpful. I agree with Leftzilla that your posts are always helpful and insightful. I also enjoy the "Experts" posts and opinions...All are good... If I were to be asked who seems to be the major backer of Line 6 on these forums, I would have to say it is you Neal. You seem to be answering the majority of questions here. Also your video demos and Customtones are quite helpful as well. And, from what I have read you really have supported the Line 6 products and the "big picture" from Line 6 consistantly and for quite some time.That is not to say folks like Sean Halley and other Line 6 contributors are looking shabby!  It is ALL good.

This being said, It is always appreciated when anyone from Line 6 enters a thread and cares to shed light on a question or explanation. Really, the answers are quite good, helpful and useful. The Expert's answers do seem to be expert and often seem to be the final say to a problem. Your answers also seem to be on that level Neal as someone who really uses and understands this equiptment. You even have the humility to say on several threads..."I could be wrong about this, and someone from Line 6 is welcome to correct me if I am wrong."

All of this is helpful to those of us who are Line 6 users... the problem here seems to be some emotional content that some might think is not appropriate on a forum like this. I don't know, understand or even care to hear about the politics of the company or Line 6 forum. It is a great place to learn about Line 6 gear and figure out problems associated with said equiptment. I think it should stay that way.

Besides being a musician, I happen to be an MD. I deal with a lot of emotional issues with my patients. I am pretty good at recognizing what is going on with people and enjoy doing this. However, Line 6 forum does not seem to be the place for that .Lets keep this place for discussing music and how to get it done with Line 6 gear. Neal please write to me in private if you need a place to deal with this stuff but lets stop the non music content going on here right now. It iseems petty and beneath us ALL..I hope we are in agreement. I can't help but appreciate everyone here. Many Thanks!    And, I really am your friend Neal.

Funky



Re: This is goodbye & a finish to my free assistance. I did gladly sign up years ago, but I'm finished now.
by silverhead on 2012-06-12 13:16:50

+1, Funky. Couldn't agree more.



Re: This is goodbye & a finish to my free assistance. I did gladly sign up years ago, but I'm finished now.
by MerlinFL on 2012-06-12 13:37:24

Karl - just a guess on my part here.  Any participation to any question or discussion that I joined in on has never stopped you or anyone else from offering suggestions as well.  Even if to simply agree or disagree with any post by not just me.  I'm clearly NOT an Expert since I've not been tagged as such as you referred to me as, Karl.

And in keeping with seemingly required posting format as to not confuse those reading... 

  • And while I'm itemizing, exactly who did you have to sleep with to get labeled an Expert?  
  • Do you know more about the products we each have than I do?
  • If the answer is no, then why are you labeled Expert and I am not? If this whole thing doesn't prove my point about that Expert label being a complete political load of manure, then I don't know what does.
  • I very recently learned that the label is NOT point related as I previously thought.  It is based ENTIRELY on just ONE OR MORE Line 6 people in charge of this forum to honor others with that tag.
  • And back when these were first being handed out (2009 or so?), I simply ASKED how does someone get one, and then ASKED publicly why I didn't have one.  Wow, what a storm that caused!!  Just ASKING why?  If asking why is wrong, then I'm wrong very often. 
  • While being wrong from asking a question - if I do get a correct answer I have instead learned something and not need ask again.  I only keep asking when I don't get a correct or logical answer. to my question.  And in all this time there has been only PERSONAL, not LOGICAL reason for keeping that tag from under my L6 ID.  Not very business-like in my opinion.
  • I was and still am asking WHY the POD HD line is the way it is.  I asked WHY the JTV guitars were made the way they were, and the same for the DT amps which are still too loud for most small club or bar use on stage in my opinion.  All these questions WHY but none caused the storm the question why caused regarding the Expert tag.  Almost like there was something to hide about it or something not supposed to be discussed publicly?  I doubt this is true, but why such a strong reaction to a simple question?  And in all this time never has there been a single thing in writing by anyone from Line 6 to explain why certain people got tags and others did not.  WHY???

Now that I've laid out this interrogatory in the manner which I've been told was required by Experts and non-Experts alike.  Apparently my regular posts seem to easily confuse just a few "In-crowd" people like yourself.  Lucky for me and for those looking for help, suggestions, guidance, answers to problems, etc. are the majority and seem to have no trouble at all understanding my posts as well as being very kind and writing to thank me for being helpful.

I've been crucified by people like you for being hard to understand when it seems perfectly clear to me what I was writing about as this guy thought.  But unlike you and a few others I did not jump all over him, I just tried to give the best answer I could even though the question made no sense to me and still doesn't.  He got very angry and posted nothing more than a personal attack against me and in the typical double standard manner you and the others in your clique have, you chose to "like" what he wrote about me.  **All this negative stuff from the person in question and myself has been deleted by Line 6 or edited on my own so as little as possible might remain.**

It's astounding to me that even me saying goodbye is bringing about all this BS crap that I did not start and yet will probably get blamed for. 

...in the meantime, I'll just wait for my abuse submission is acted upon by Line6Tony or someone else from the Forum police to remove this very objectionable post that is a clear violation of the posting rules.  **It was deleted by Line6Tony on June 21, 2012 - 10 days after it was posted and the abuse report was submitted.**

Message was edited by: Neal Van



Re: This is goodbye & a finish to my free assistance. I did gladly sign up years ago, but I'm finished now.
by DrFunk on 2012-06-12 13:51:11

Folks...  Lets just step back for a moment....

It appears to me WE ARE ALL ON THE SAME SIDE!!!

We are not here to be opposed to each other.

This is just about music, musical notes and how to achieve that using Line 6 gear.

Nothing MORE, Nothing LESS...

I rest my case.

Love to ALL

Funky



Re: This is goodbye & a finish to my free assistance. I did gladly sign up years ago, but I'm finished now.
by MerlinFL on 2012-06-12 13:51:24

Your words are great and have excellent value, but what seems to be purposely overlooked is what people do to me on here and then when I defend myself, I get ganged up on because I'm not a pushover.

I submitted an abuse complaint, yet nothing has happened to this point.  That initial post is still there and what made things worse was seeing that others including Line 6 Experts "LIKED" it!!

Why not take a side?  Why not stick up for me if you believe I was wronged by those I'm citing?  If those who pull this kind of crap saw that others won't sit by and do nothing, then perhaps they'll cease doing to me what they've been doing with impunity?  This crap might also happen to others unjustly and that is just as wrong.  So as I've said - why not stick up for the person who is being beaten on for no real reason.  No action is still a choice, and the choice is obviously let Neal take the beating, but some of us like his helpfulness?  Huh?!

Did I get this correct - or did I miss anyone sticking up for me publicly?

Do any of you know what it's like to be bullied?  I do and I know a few ways to deal with bullies.  None of which is IGNORE them and they'll go away.  Because in the real world, bullies NEVER GO AWAY.  They get get more bold and feel powerful as no one wants to get involved.  The world got so backwards from this same rational.

Funk - I really do appreciate your words but in all you wrote, why not a blurb or something to condemn those who have been kicking me in the nuts would have been even better to read.  And a +1 to something like that would be even more well received by myself as well.

Thanks for the positive thoughts,

Neal



Re: This is goodbye & a finish to my free assistance. I did gladly sign up years ago, but I'm finished now.
by MerlinFL on 2012-06-12 14:17:29

I found this and need to retract my statement that nothing was ever written about how Experts get their tags.

However, this is apparently not the whole story, but here is the link in case anyone has not seen this before...

http://line6.com/support/docs/DOC-2120

Basedon this criteria, I should have the tag which is just one of the many things I've been saying and not understanding why I never got one.  Then what's not written here is what was told to me in the past month that those selected are selected, but not just on product knowledge.  Not quite fair is it afterall?



Re: This is goodbye & a finish to my free assistance. I did gladly sign up years ago, but I'm finished now.
by MerlinFL on 2012-06-12 18:25:51

THIS IS WHAT THAT INSULTING POS WANTED AS AN ANSWER TO HIS QUESTION HE WROTE FOR HIMSELF....And yes this time I am actually yelling because this whole thing has been something to yell about!

Who in the world would come up with this answer on these boards?!?!?!?  Doesn't this guy have ears?  I think that is what the rest of us use - right?  Or am I wrong yet again?

I did some tests yesterday. Result inconclusive. 

I setup a guitar as per factory and ran that thru the HD500 into protools and recorded takes at + 6 on pickup, Volume and both. Obviously both was louder. Most of the results ranged from -13.7 to -10.3

What I found was that I couldn't get a consistent "plucked note" from the guitar so that what came out of the guitar was always the same.

My conclusion is I think tweaking these probably does nothing to tones "hotness" whatever.

I beleive that it is a clumsy form of balance. Clumsy in that if pickup1 is +2.78 to get back to unity the second pickup has to have -2.78 entered.

Maybe out of this there are two ideas for LIne6:

a) Somehow make pickups "hotter" ??? Probably just a pipe dream on my part

b) Redesign this page as follows:

* Remove the Level sliders and the Volume slider.

* Introduce a Balance slider where the norm is in the middle position (V). P1 is marked on the left P2 on the right.

  Like     P1                                                    V                                                      P2

               6------5------4------3------2------1------0------1------2------3------4------5------6

Then when Pickup one needs to be louder than pickup 2 then move the slider (V) to the right this would automatically balance pickup 2.

Like        P1                                                                       V                                   P2 

                6------5------4------3------2------1------0------1------2------3------4------5------6

* Leave the overall volume on the third page with Tones and Volumes.

Now if all posts related this this idiot were to be removed (mine and his & any others related to that situation), my final public post would be exactly as I wanted...I simple goodbye to the public postings.  I think I would also have won my bet with Karl as I doubt anyone would have thought this was the answer desired.



Re: This is goodbye & a finish to my free assistance. I did gladly sign up years ago, but I'm finished now.
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2012-06-12 20:43:12

MerlinFL wrote:

  • And while I'm itemizing, exactly who did you have to sleep with to get labeled an Expert?

I know this isn't a popular thing to say or do these days, but the only person I've ever slept with in my whole life is my wife of 19 years.



Re: This is goodbye & a finish to my free assistance. I did gladly sign up years ago, but I'm finished now.
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2012-06-12 21:03:40

MerlinFL wrote:

  • Did it give you some personal joy in clicking the "Like" button regarding a post that was nothing more than complete abuse of my attempt to assist a question written by an imbecile?

No, I just thought he said something funny.  It's ironic that you hold the very person who you're supposedly trying to help in such contempt.  If his question was so idiotic to you, and you think he's an imbecile, AND you go out of your way to call him one...well...maybe that's the reason right there why you don't have that Expert tag you so desperately covet.

Honestly, take mine.  It's just a tiny little .png.  Here's one you could make a part of your avatar or even put in your signature.  They're free:

<a target=new href=http://l6c.scdn.line6.net/support/4.5.7/images/status/l6expert.png"class="jive-image" src="http://l6c.scdn.line6.net/support/4.5.7/images/status/l6expert_r16957.png"/>



Re: This is goodbye & a finish to my free assistance. I did gladly sign up years ago, but I'm finished now.
by spaceatl on 2012-06-13 05:52:54

That's weird...I also slept with my wife and then was labeled an expert...

BTW, speaking of simple math:

Incoherrent Summation (10 Log 10)...SPL or Voltage

0db + 0db = +3.01db

0db + 0db + 6db = 7.8db

-6db + 6 db + 0db = 7.2db

IOW, this sorta math is not really that simple....jus' sayin....



Re: This is goodbye & a finish to my free assistance. I did gladly sign up years ago, but I'm finished now.
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2012-06-13 07:17:30

spaceatl wrote:

That's weird...I also slept with my wife and then was labeled an expert...

Best.  Post.  Ever.



Re: This is goodbye & a finish to my free assistance. I did gladly sign up years ago, but I'm finished now.
by MerlinFL on 2012-06-13 09:11:27

Excellent answer Karl and I am truly sorry for writing most of those thing directly at you.  I let my anger get the better of me and much of what I wrote was very uncalled for and once again for what its worht - I am truly sorry.

I don't expect anything further nor will I say anything further to you or about you.  My words were very hasty although I had reasons which I doubt anyone would ever understand.

So I'll be gone soon enough and I'll not be a bother to anyone anymore.

Neal



Re: This is goodbye & a finish to my free assistance. I did gladly sign up years ago, but I'm finished now.
by MerlinFL on 2012-06-13 09:22:15

As I should have expected by now, eeryone comepltely missed the sequence of events.

Aren't we all here because we can identify problems and then root them out?

Did anyone either rad the copied entire post that went between myself and he who wanted help, or is all this judgment of my behavior just that judgment upon someone none of you know personally?

I do mean my apology for most of what I wrote personally as it was over the top, but I still do not understand why you think it funny to read someone abusing me or anyone else for that matter.  What's wrong with you people?!  All I did write about watching bullies, pulling woings off flies - that I do not regret as yet again it's confirmed that this is who you must be based on what you're writing.

I might be obsessive about that tag, but never once have I ever sat and watched someone else get verbally abused without doing something about it.  That's the very sad and scary part of this whole thing.

None of you are writing about something you know from the beginning.  And if you are, then what exactly did I do on HIS thread trying to answer his question that earned such crap from him?  I tried to help - and this is what I deserve for that?  That is seriously messed up thinking, and if it's apathy that gets the expert tag, then keep the damn thing. If it's product knowledge and the willingness to spend our time helping, then I should have gotten one as I 've done more and can prove it, to help Line 6 be viewed more than a joke by the general musical public.

Neal

Karl_Houseknecht wrote:

MerlinFL wrote:

  • Did it give you some personal joy in clicking the "Like" button regarding a post that was nothing more than complete abuse of my attempt to assist a question written by an imbecile?

No, I just thought he said something funny.  It's ironic that you hold the very person who you're supposedly trying to help in such contempt.  If his question was so idiotic to you, and you think he's an imbecile, AND you go out of your way to call him one...well...maybe that's the reason right there why you don't have that Expert tag you so desperately covet.

Honestly, take mine.  It's just a tiny little .png.  Here's one you could make a part of your avatar or even put in your signature.  They're free:

<a target=new href=http://l6c.scdn.line6.net/support/4.5.7/images/status/l6expert.png"class="jive-image" src="http://l6c.scdn.line6.net/support/4.5.7/images/status/l6expert_r16957.png"/>



Re: This is goodbye & a finish to my free assistance. I did gladly sign up years ago, but I'm finished now.
by daferalo on 2012-06-13 09:27:51

spaceatl escribió:

That's weird...I also slept with my wife and then was labeled an expert...

BTW, speaking of simple math:

Incoherrent Summation (10 Log 10)...SPL or Voltage

0db + 0db = +3.01db

0db + 0db + 6db = 7.8db

-6db + 6 db + 0db = 7.2db

IOW, this sorta math is not really that simple....jus' sayin....

Hi Spaceatl,

I am not trying to be part of the main argument of this post, it is that I just love maths, physics and engineering, and I like to make clear some things for everyone here, if I feel I can do it. What you said there is true, as you know very good. But as I am sure you know too, you are talking about a power quantity, which is not the best thing for calculating overrall power gain in a circuit with different stages in cascade. If I remember well, the OP was asking about two hypothetical situations in workbench, which is a software relating to a hardware that applies different gain operations at several stages, in cascade. That is why is very useful the dB definition, because it is just a matter of simply math (sum and rest), and I am sure you know it too.

So, let's talk about the overrall power gain (G) in a circuit with just two stages in cascade (G1 and G2). The overrall power gain would be:

G = G1*G2

Applying a logaritmic operation, it means:

log G = log (G1*G2) = log G1 + log G2

Now, multiplying for 10 times in both sides of that equation:

10 log G = 10 log G1 + 10 log G2

Which is the definition of a dB (and it is a relative quantity), so that at the end:

Gdb = G1db + G2db

So, it means that if in the first stage you have 6 db (doubling the input voltage at the output) and at the second you have -6db (halving the input voltage at the output), at the end you would have 0 db (the same overrall amount at the input is at the output). Of course, that was what the OP discovered.

Best Regards,

Daf



Re: This is goodbye & a finish to my free assistance. I did gladly sign up years ago, but I'm finished now.
by MerlinFL on 2012-06-13 09:34:50

I'm NOT a scientist and don't need to be to know what works and sounds good to my ears and those to whom I'm playing with. I have a BA in Classical Music Composition, not any type of science that deals with these equations, so if in the non-real world of Mathematics like 1+1 =2   and 0db + 0db does not equal 0db, then I'm NOT QUALIFIED to answer the question.

But while you seem to know all this good info, where were you when his question was posted?  Sleeping with your wife, which I presume would be much better than sitting here typing.  And like Karl - I think that is a terrific thing to read.  Perhaps you might have been using the gear you know all about?  I'm not fortunate enough to have a wife, and I'll NOT get into that story as I KNOW no on here gives a squirt of piss about anything in my life with all it's cruelties and excessive hardships.  Not one here has a real clue why I've felt as I do or why I've acted as I did on this last thread that was just supposed to be goodbye and nothing more.

Isn't there a single person out there that has bothered to follow this whole thing from the beginning?  Not a single one who might see how the unprovoked attack on me would be met with my response?  Not one who would think it's NOT funny, nor something to ENCOURAGE by "liking" it?  Where are those people?  Has the world truly gone to complete sh1t?  And my early life lessons of "Do Unto Others As they would Do Unto You" has no place anymore in this society or perhaps it's just these forums where it doesn't apply?

Neal

spaceatl wrote:

That's weird...I also slept with my wife and then was labeled an expert...

BTW, speaking of simple math:

Incoherrent Summation (10 Log 10)...SPL or Voltage

0db + 0db = +3.01db

0db + 0db + 6db = 7.8db

-6db + 6 db + 0db = 7.2db

IOW, this sorta math is not really that simple....jus' sayin....



Re: This is goodbye & a finish to my free assistance. I did gladly sign up years ago, but I'm finished now.
by MerlinFL on 2012-06-13 09:38:38

Daf - thank the lord you at least understand why I'm NOT a mathematician, and dealt with the question to the best of my ability only to wind spending several hours dealing with BS on my own thread because some people are bored and enjoy watching me defend myself.  They think it's FUNNY.

Neal

daferalo wrote:

spaceatl escribió:

That's weird...I also slept with my wife and then was labeled an expert...

BTW, speaking of simple math:

Incoherrent Summation (10 Log 10)...SPL or Voltage

0db + 0db = +3.01db

0db + 0db + 6db = 7.8db

-6db + 6 db + 0db = 7.2db

IOW, this sorta math is not really that simple....jus' sayin....

Hi Spaceatl,

I am not trying to be part of the main argument of this post, it is that I just love maths, physics and engineering, and I like to make clear some things for everyone here, if I feel I can do it. What you said there is true, as you know very good. But as I am sure you know too, you are talking about a power quantity, which is not the best thing for calculating overrall power gain in a circuit with different stages in cascade. If I remember well, the OP was asking about two hypothetical situations in workbench, which is a software relating to a hardware that applies different gain operations at several stages, in cascade. That is why is very useful the dB definition, because it is just a matter of simply math (sum and rest), and I am sure you know it too.

So, let's talk about the overrall power gain (G) in a circuit with just two stages in cascade (G1 and G2). The overrall power gain would be:

G = G1*G2

Applying a logaritmic operation, it means:

log G = log (G1*G2) = log G1 + log G2

Now, multiplying for 10 times in both sides of that equation:

10 log G = 10 log G1 + 10 log G2

Which is the definition of a dB (and it is a relative quantity), so that at the end:

Gdb = G1db + G2db

So, it means that if in the first stage you have 6 db (doubling the input voltage at the output) and at the second you have -6db (halving the input voltage at the output), at the end you would have 0 db (the same overrall amount at the input is at the output). Of course, that was what the OP discovered.

Best Regards,

Daf



Re: This is goodbye & a finish to my free assistance. I did gladly sign up years ago, but I'm finished now.
by spaceatl on 2012-06-13 10:32:58

I don't see this as an argument at all...To the contrary, I always enjoy these sorts of discussions as there are always new things that I learn from them...

I am not a Workbench user, but I know a little bit about audio....I was thinking that this is some sort of output compensation in that regard...However, the summation got me thinking in terms of some projects that I have on going myself...I got to thinking if you are summing a neck pup and a bridge pup it would seem to me that the type of summation would fall somewhere in between coherent (20 log) and incoherent (10 log)....The OP's comment about +6 db single and +6 db summed seemed to fall in line with something just a wee bit hotter than incoherent summation...Seems like the frequency content difference makes it more incoherent than coherent....just casual observation...

"I did some tests yesterday. Result inconclusive.

I setup a guitar as per factory and ran that thru the HD500 into protools and recorded takes at + 6 on pickup, Volume and both. Obviously both was louder.

Most of the results ranged from -13.7 to -10.3"

This was what caught my eye....

So assuming -13.7db was the single source test of +6db hitting a line level protools interface...Then I would surmize that the level is actually instrument level (-20 db)....

That leaves me with the impression that -10.3 db was 6db summed...Incoherently expect -10.69 db (+3.01db increase from 13.7db)....but these are just averages anyway, but that seems to hold...

I was just trying to point out that summation of audio whether it be physical SPL or voltage behaves about the same way....and it is calculated the same way....



Re: This is goodbye & a finish to my free assistance. I did gladly sign up years ago, but I'm finished now.
by spaceatl on 2012-06-13 10:47:57

There is a difference between summation and attenuation...I just thought in hindsight it is an important distinction to make...Getting a little grasp on where summation occurs and attenuation really helps in understanding and maintaining good gain structure in any signal chain...

If you sum two signals together that each measures 0db, the resulting signal will be about +3db....Now if we then attenuated that summed signal by -3db, it certianly does go back to 0db...

If you moved the -3db attenuation to one of the two 0db signals prior to summation, the resulting summed signal would be about +1.7db....That is the distinction that I was trying to point out...



Re: This is goodbye & a finish to my free assistance. I did gladly sign up years ago, but I'm finished now.
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2012-06-13 10:48:23

MerlinFL wrote:

Excellent answer Karl and I am truly sorry for writing most of those thing directly at you. 

My words were very hasty although I had reasons

So, you're sorry for some of the things you said, and for the rest you have reasons?

Apology accepted...I think???



Re: This is goodbye & a finish to my free assistance. I did gladly sign up years ago, but I'm finished now.
by TheRealZap on 2012-06-13 11:04:22

Holy expert professor space... truly in awe of your knowledge.



Re: This is goodbye & a finish to my free assistance. I did gladly sign up years ago, but I'm finished now.
by daferalo on 2012-06-13 11:11:50

Ah, Ok, I can see your point very well, and you are right.

What I understood of that experiment (maybe as my mother language is not english) is that the result is dependent on the strength by which the string was played, which is something very hard to reproduce consistently. That is why I did not take it as you did.

I agree about the fact of summing two acoustic signals, as you have pointed out very good. But what I understood it was being asked is about the process in the software (what about if level pickup is at 6 db and the model output level is at -6db?), not about the physical acoustic wave. In that case, I think it is more related to a circuit behaviour, so that it is just a matter of sum and rest.

However, what I said is not neccesary the real truth!!!! The real truth is always built from everyone!!!

Best Regards,

Daf



Re: This is goodbye & a finish to my free assistance. I did gladly sign up years ago, but I'm finished now.
by daferalo on 2012-06-13 11:30:16

I mean, you are describing the following situation: there are two signal sources, so what is happening to the signal produced when summing those two signals?

But what I understood is: if you enter a signal in a circuit with several gain stages in cascade, what would happend to the output signal?

You are totally right about your explanation. I think it is just a matter of how we are understanding the question.

Best Regards,

Daf



Re: This is goodbye & a finish to my free assistance. I did gladly sign up years ago, but I'm finished now.
by spaceatl on 2012-06-13 12:40:39

Ah interesting....So could it be that the modeled volume has some modeled behavior in terms of pickup distance? On real pickups, this is a real nice trick for optimizing clean tones....Running the pickup a bit further away gives a bit more of an open sound....But at the cost of level...In the passive world, you generally need all we can get...but I wonder how much of this they have modeled in the JTV....A very impressive guitar...I am just not ready to go there yet...



Re: This is goodbye & a finish to my free assistance. I did gladly sign up years ago, but I'm finished now.
by daferalo on 2012-06-13 13:49:17

Yeah, the JTV is a very impressive guitar!!!

The pickup level could be a sort of pickup distance behaviour, but just in regard to the loudness. The tone effects that are present when changing the height of a real pickup does not show up with that option. To do so, you have other interesting options, like electronic component values.

Best Regards,

Daf



Re: This is goodbye & a finish to my free assistance. I did gladly sign up years ago, but I'm finished now.
by MerlinFL on 2012-06-13 16:14:34

So, you're sorry for some of the things you said, and for the rest you have reasons?

Yep - I sure do...

...and thanks for your tenuous acceptance of my apology.

Neal

Karl_Houseknecht wrote:

MerlinFL wrote:

Excellent answer Karl and I am truly sorry for writing most of those thing directly at you. 

My words were very hasty although I had reasons

So, you're sorry for some of the things you said, and for the rest you have reasons?

Apology accepted...I think???



Re: This is goodbye & a finish to my free assistance. I did gladly sign up years ago, but I'm finished now.
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2012-06-13 20:33:36

See Neal, it's this way you have with people.  Or rather the way you don't have with them.  You're very technically literate for sure.  You know your way around gear and you are a pretty darn good player from what I've heard from you.  But man...you need to dial yourself back a notch and roll with things.  Stop trying so hard to be liked, and maybe people will like you.  Perfect example is your YouTube video demonstrating the Variax acoustic models.  You couldn't imagine why people were downvoting it and you commented as such, imploring them to tell you way.  Go watch some other gear demos.  The best ones have very little talking and a lot more playing.  Your first one had 7 minutes of talking and 30 seconds of playing at the end.  But you couldn't see that for some reason.

It's not even the video that's the problem, it's how you handled critique.  You're just trying too hard to be accepted as some kind of authority.  And I guess that's why the expert badge means so much to you because that would be a symbol that lets the world know.  Man, just relax, keep giving good technical advice like you have, and try not to alienate others.  I get the impression you can be a likable enough guy.  Just forget about the expert badge.  Other forums don't have that, and people know who the experts are without needing to see it.  They know based on who is nice to them and answers their questions reliably.  It was the same way here before the whole points system.  Everyone knew who had the right answers, and who wouldn't be a jerk to you in getting your questions answered.

Anyway, I'm keeping you from leaving.  Best of luck, thanks for helping out, and keep rockin!



Re: This is goodbye & a finish to my free assistance. I did gladly sign up years ago, but I'm finished now.
by cgtrox on 2012-06-13 21:23:34

tumblr_lk6fpwP79b1qg8h04o1_500.jpg

cgtrox



Re: This is goodbye & a finish to my free assistance. I did gladly sign up years ago, but I'm finished now.
by anonyrat on 2012-06-13 22:09:35

Most of the results ranged from -13.7 to -10.3"

This was what caught my eye....

So assuming -13.7db was the single source test of +6db hitting a line level protools interface...Then I would surmize that the level is actually instrument level (-20 db)....

That leaves me with the impression that -10.3 db was 6db summed...Incoherently expect -10.69 db (+3.01db increase from 13.7db)....but these are just averages anyway, but that seems to hold...

Hi spaceatl,

When you say single source test of +6db etc - If you mean literally 1 input source then maybe I am not understanding that part.

Firstly I could not introduce a consistent input source into ProTools  - I tried moving the low E string sideways until it was over the edge of the black part of the pickup and letting go (Twang not very scientific )

I did think of maybe making a crude E-bow thing to try to generate a single consistant tone but that went into the too hard bucket.

The -13 to -10 figures were the ranges I got from various tests. So for example Pickup Level at +6 resulted in values from -13.x to -10.x - all because of the input variances.

I like your maths though - theoretical maths, at least more predictable than my form of twanging maths

Cheers



Re: This is goodbye & a finish to my free assistance. I did gladly sign up years ago, but I'm finished now.
by anonyrat on 2012-06-13 22:15:36

Hey whats going on here?

I've had nearly 30 posts and slept with my wife and still haven't got my Sexpert Tag...   Damn..... even got the T-shirt ready.



Re: This is goodbye & a finish to my free assistance. I did gladly sign up years ago, but I'm finished now.
by spaceatl on 2012-06-14 08:47:50

Sorry, I was not quite clear on my interpretation....When I said single source, I was thinking where you had one pup at +6db alone...The other test is what I would term as dual source....two pups both set at +6db summed together....This is just a subtltey of "mixing" audio signals I was trying draw a little distinction on....I am not very familiar with Workbench, but the way signals sum and the rules around that are fairly universal...What ends up on the meter isn't always what you expect as there can be a lot of factors playing into it...This is just one of those essoteric subjects that I enjoy discussing...

I actually liked your interface idea that resulted from your experiment...I am a little out of the box on the workbench, but your visual UI idea seemed sound to me....You should suggest it on the feedback page...That is really the only way to know that Line 6 will review an idea...Rest assured, even though you will likely never get any feedback from them on it, they will look it over...might as well though it in the pot I say...



Re: This is goodbye & a finish to my free assistance. I did gladly sign up years ago, but I'm finished now.
by player99 on 2012-06-14 15:43:26

This was my thread to say good bye - it is now a math lesson about the Workbench software.  This was not what I planned for this thread.

I guess you cannot go. Welcome back!

Cheers,

R B



Re: This is goodbye & a finish to my free assistance. I did gladly sign up years ago, but I'm finished now.
by MerlinFL on 2012-06-14 16:39:07

Very well "played"  get it I used the word played in honor of your ID??

Truly very funny, but I'm am really retiring, leaving, quitting, giving up, I'll let others choose my words for me as I seem never to do evn that too well. 

I want the whole thing deleted by the Line 6 Forum police, but alas, my abuse report and personal requests have --to this point-- continued to go unattended.

I had only one recourse to act upon which was to change the only part I could change.  The title and my initial post.

Really did get a good and very much needed laugh from you well timed snippet.  Thanks.

Cheers to you as well,

Neal

player99 wrote:

This was my thread to say good bye - it is now a math lesson about the Workbench software.  This was not what I planned for this thread.

I guess you cannot go. Welcome back!

Cheers,

R B



Re: This is goodbye & a finish to my free assistance. I did gladly sign up years ago, but I'm finished now.
by player99 on 2012-06-14 22:30:44

Na, just lighten up. The internet is a wacky place. I would appreciate your input in any questions I might have... I am sure many others feel the same. Sometimes things get on my nerves and I pull back and return a little wiser and choose my interactions more carefully. Don't let any sh*t from this forum get you down. We need you!



Re: This is goodbye & a finish to my free assistance. I did gladly sign up years ago, but I'm finished now.
by edstar1960 on 2012-06-15 03:24:19

Hi Neal,

I also appreciate all your input and have always found your contributions polite, friendly and very useful and I am sure many others that you have helped over the years feel the same. You don't need a tag, badge, or official title, as your actions, deeds and contributions to this forum speak volumes and say all any of us need to know.  All the regular forum users soon get to know who the friendly, helpful, and knowledgable contributors are and I am sure none of us worry about whether people who have helped us have a particular tag/badge/title or whether they have had 1 post or 5000 posts - if they have shared their knowledge and helped solve a problem or issue then we are very grateful.

I am sorry to hear about the problems that you have had especially the most recent.  All I can say from an outside perspective is that it looks like a classic case of mis-communication due to the sterile medium of the written word. I bet that if you guys had your conversation face to face that you would have easily communicated and avoided any misunderstandings and would probably be buying each other beers and talking about all sorts of musical gear and sharing stories. And that would be because you would each have picked up on all the non-verbal physical visual clues that are so essential to human interaction and you would each have adjusted what you said accordingly as you talked because you would be able to see the other persons reaction to what you were saying.  Without the visual clues we can only interpret the written word using our own emotions and feelings and therefore it is very easy to read in the wrong intent and meaning behind the words on the page.  I am always doing it and have to step back and remind myself that without the visual side of the conversation I may well be misreading what was written down.

I hope you decide to stick around and contribute but that is ultimately your decision to make.

All the best with whatever you decide to do in the future!

Take care!

Eddie



Re: This was my thread to say good bye - it is now a math lesson about the Workbench software. This was not what I planned for this thread.
by dylantan on 2012-06-15 03:57:22

Thumbs Up for comment from both Silverhead and Edstar - two guys (one with a tag, the other without) who give very useful and sound contributions. Forums, I have learnt is the Wild Wild West, where the Good, the Bad and the Ugly exists.



Re: This was my thread to say good bye - it is now a math lesson about the Workbench software. This was not what I planned for this thread.
by jasonk931 on 2012-10-26 18:42:13

I am a brand new user of line 6 products and guitars (4 months) A kind reminder to all on this forum:

1. You are on here because somewhere in the beginning of your life you fell in love with sound and making it with strings or something to this degree.

2. You bought a line 6 product, and wanted to embrace the whole scope of the line 6 Kingdom.

3. You got a user name and password and said, "sweet! I can chat with other people who love line 6 stuff too, and get help where I'm ignorant to it."

4. You began to learn from great folks who love to share ideas and wisdom.

5. WHERE IN THE WORLD DID YOU GO FROM LOVING MUSIC AND TONE, TO WORRYING ABOUT WHAT SOME FACELESS PERSON ON A FORUM POSTED ABOUT YOU, OR DIDN'T LIKE YOUR ADVICE? REALLY? I HAVE A 6 YEAR OLD AND AN 8 YEAR OLD THAT DON'T DO THIS STUFF. THE HILLS, MELROSE PLACE, AND ANDY GRIFFITH WOULD LOVE THIS, BUT NOT US!

6. DROP IT, AND MOVE ON!

7.TAKE YOUR AGRESSION OUT BY CREATING SOMETHING BEAUTIFUL THROUGH YOUR KILLER LINE 6 PRODUCTS.

8. RETURN TO THE FORUM ONCE YOU'VE REALIZED IT'S NOT ABOUT YOU, IT'S ABOUT THE GEAR....PERIOD!

9....Oy, I miss my xylophone.

10. Yesterday is gone, tomorrow hasn't happened, and today is all you have. Today is worth more than a digital rant.

11. BACK TO MY ESPRESSO AND VARIAX...CHEERS EVERYONE.



Re: This was my thread to say good bye - it is now a math lesson about the Workbench software. This was not what I planned for this thread.
by TheRealZap on 2012-10-26 20:25:42

4 months late to the party



Re: This was my thread to say good bye - it is now a math lesson about the Workbench software. This was not what I planned for this thread.
by jasonk931 on 2012-10-27 06:55:57

I just saw the dates when I saw your reply. Bahaaaa! sorry bout that. Newbie mistake. Hold the Line----6

-Cheers




The information above may not be current, and you should direct questions to the current forum or review the manual.