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Heavy metal players, HOOOO!
by chimp_spanner on 2012-06-16 07:46:08

Hey guys - been doing a LOT of tweaking this weekend and I've made a bit of a breakthrough in getting really nice, aggressive tones for modern low tuned metal riffs. Up till now I've been using the Tube Screamer model before my amp as that seems to be the most widely used approach for tone boosting and adding a little extra saturation. However it's never really been the distortion I've had a problem with in the amps (I think between the pre-amp modelling and distortion you can get from the power amp there's plenty of saturation to be found) but rather the 'attack'. It seems to get lost under all the gain, and the Tube Screamer can make things a bit scratchy at times.

The solution, I've found, is to use a fixed wah pedal! Fully open, with the mix set anywhere from 50% upwards, and a parametric EQ in between it and the amp to tame the obnoxiousness of the sound (maximum Q, about 68% freq, 20% gain). The results are fantastic, for me at any rate. Here are a couple of clips, the first is unmixed/unmastered (and is also not my riff). The second has a better overall sound but maybe too much of the wah effect in the tone. And also the riff sucks haha. Anyway I just thought this might be helpful for people that are getting frustrated trying to get that modern metal tone using amps and distortion stomps alone.

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/2996036/The%20Mouth%20Licking....mp3 (7 string)

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/2996036/Cock%20off.mp3 (8 string tuned to F#)

For those interested, the chain is:

Gate -> Wah -> Parametric EQ -> Gate -> Amp -> Hard Gate

May seem like excessive gating, and usually I'm dead against it, but it seems to be required to keep the hiss under control. I reckon if I combine this approach with Meambobbo's dual cab approach I could be on to a winner!



Re: Heavy metal players, HOOOO!
by meambobbo on 2012-06-16 12:27:13

Holy kick in the crotch, Batman!  That tone is lethal!

Have you ever tried the Q Filter effect?  MFKitten on the sevenstring.org forums gets a great tone and says he likes to use that similar to how you use the wah.  I've never had great success using a wah.  I think it might sound better on the 8 string with the darker pickups, but it doesn't work well on my EBMM JPM.

Please post that patch!



Re: Heavy metal players, HOOOO!
by Apologist on 2012-06-16 13:30:01

Awesomeness



Re: Heavy metal players, HOOOO!
by meambobbo on 2012-06-16 13:42:30

Also I know what u mean by screamer scratchiness. I found the cab dep's helped with taming that. Decay turned up can smooth out and thicken up the tone



Re: Heavy metal players, HOOOO!
by alfmetal70 on 2012-06-16 18:10:17

really excelent; hace you the patch for POD HD500?

Really but really good tone, greetings



Re: Heavy metal players, HOOOO!
by tdollaway on 2012-06-17 10:25:24

Wow!! Good work, man! Can you pleast post this patch? I've been trying to get a good seven string tone. And the djentier, the better!



Re: Heavy metal players, HOOOO!
by chimp_spanner on 2012-06-17 11:19:39

Thanks guys! Here are the patches (the F# clip was done with tone 1, and the Meshuggah riff was with tone 2). Yeah I also tried the Q Filter effect too...similar results but not quite as aggressive sounding to my ear! Anyway really happy with this tone. Will continue to experiment but it's finally making my 8 string fun to play

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/2996036/Open%20Wah%20Rhythm%201.hre

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/2996036/Open%20Wah%20Rhythm%202.hre



Re: Heavy metal players, HOOOO!
by disease75 on 2012-06-18 00:09:48

I can't' open the patch



Re: Heavy metal players, HOOOO!
by chimp_spanner on 2012-06-18 01:06:55

Which POD do you have? I made these on a Pro. I'm not sure how to get them to open on a 500. In any case, if you follow the chain I explained earlier you should get a similar sound pretty quickly



Re: Heavy metal players, HOOOO!
by disease75 on 2012-06-18 04:08:15

Yeah I have a 500 ... 



Re: Heavy metal players, HOOOO!
by silverhead on 2012-06-18 05:43:59

To get HD Pro patches to work on an HD500:

- download and install HD Pro Edit

- run HD Pro Edit in offline mode (no device connected)

- load the HD Pro patch into HD Pro Edit

- edit the HD Pro preset and make it compatible with the HD500 device (e.g. change any input settings that are not available on the HD500 to settings that are available).

- drag/drop the HD500-compatible patch to any folder on your computer.

- open HD500 Edit with the HD500 device connected

- drag/drop the patch from your computer folder into any preset slot in HD500 Edit

- use the SEND SELECTED command in HD500 Edit to load/save the patch to your HD500 device

Hope this helps.



Re: Heavy metal players, HOOOO!
by meambobbo on 2012-06-18 07:41:57

the 500 should be fully compatible with the pro.  just change the file extension from .hre to .h5e.



Re: Heavy metal players, HOOOO!
by meambobbo on 2012-06-18 08:04:46

well, no it doesn't work... trying to figure out why now



Re: Heavy metal players, HOOOO!
by Texxxxx on 2012-06-18 08:14:04

I've found that when using 500 patches on a Pro, the Input, in the patch, changes from 'Guitar' to 'Line R/Same', and I have to reset the Input back to 'Guitar' to make the patch work.

Maybe it happens when going from a Pro to a 500, also.



Re: Heavy metal players, HOOOO!
by chimp_spanner on 2012-06-18 08:19:12

Hey I could easily just write the patch down. That's as good a way as any, if you guys can't get it working!



Re: Heavy metal players, HOOOO!
by meambobbo on 2012-06-18 08:25:34

I remade them as per Silverhead's suggestion and attached them here.  Just strip the .jpg from the end of the file names and they will load in HD 500 Edit for firmware version 2.0.  NO IDEA why they don't translate.  It's complete BS.  There's no features on the Pro that make its patches incompatible with the 500.  Another stupid and possibly lazy programming decision by Line 6.

Chimp, check a couple gate settings for me - I think I'm missing something.  On patch 1, the close setting is higher than the open setting on the hard gate.  I would imagine this either means the close setting is the only setting that matters, or you get zipper type artifacts.  On patch 2, it looks like for the second Noise Gate you inversed the usual parameters of decay 10%, threshold 50%.  Was that a mistake, or does it work better like that for patch 2?

When I get some time I may try to put my own spin on these.



Re: Heavy metal players, HOOOO!
by meambobbo on 2012-06-18 08:26:33

it says invalid data and completely blanks out the patch.  = bad programming.  SHOULD BE CONSIDERED A @$#%$#% BUG



Re: Heavy metal players, HOOOO!
by silverhead on 2012-06-18 09:13:10

meambobbo wrote:

------  There's no features on the Pro that make its patches incompatible with the 500.  ....

It's not the features - it's the different inputs. I think this goes back to the high-pitched squealing issue, which was traced to invalid data being present in a preset, which in turn (I believe - but don't know for sure) was at least partly due to mismatched inputs between devices. I agree with you that it should be a fairly straightforward bit of software to convert/filter the inputs and perhaps other features between the HD Bean/500/Pro to make the presets fully compatible among the devices. After all, the respective Editors are able to detect the presence of the invalid data and refuse to load the preset; presumably they could correct/reset the invalid data to reasonable valid data values at the same time and allow it to load transparently.

However, until/unless that conversion utility is available, at least there is a fairly simple manual approach.



Re: Heavy metal players, HOOOO!
by meambobbo on 2012-06-18 10:39:52

so some idiot tried to copy/paste the hd edit 500 code for the pro, and when things didn't go so well, he just put a giant if/else to can the entire patch.

it's a bug.  anyone want to send complaints into the black hole?



Re: Heavy metal players, HOOOO!
by silverhead on 2012-06-18 14:47:38

I have done so. The feature request area is really not a black hole, but I know it can appear that way.

And if anyone else is also submitting this feature request............

http://line6.com/company/contact/productfeedback/">http://line6.com/company/contact/productfeedback/">http://line6.com/company/contact/productfeedback/

.....  I think the patch conversion utility should also address the HD300/400 devices. I think it would be fairly straightorward for the utility to make some reasonable decisions and value assignments to deal with all the device incompatibilities, even the dual path differences.

For instance, when converting an HD500 patch to HD300 the utility could:

- change the Input to Guitar if necessary

- select only Path A

- select No Amp if the HD500 patch has an unavailable amp

- delete any unavailable FX

- select only the first FX1/2/3 model in the HD500 patch to apply in the HD300 patch

- .... etc. as necessary...

... and similar default decisions/assignments to get the user most of the way to the desired result automatically. Manual editing would be required from there, but at least the patch could load into the respective device Editor.



Re: Heavy metal players, HOOOO!
by meambobbo on 2012-06-18 14:51:17

dear lord, man - those look like.... SPECIFICATIONS!!!!



Re: Heavy metal players, HOOOO!
by silverhead on 2012-06-18 14:58:33

AAAArrgghhhhh..... I can't help myself!!......... in a former life I was a software designer........ Someone Save Me!



Re: Heavy metal players, HOOOO!
by chimp_spanner on 2012-06-18 16:41:52

Ahh well spotted, yes that gate in patch 2 was a mistake! I'll try it with the correct settings and no doubt it'll sound/feel better!

With regards to the hard gate, I basically turned the open threshold all the way up, played the softest I was likely to play and then gradually turned it down until it was catching my quietest playing but ignoring noise. Then I played short stops/stabs, adjusting the close until the little tail of hiss at the end was gone! Those are the settings it brought me to. I have noticed the zipper effect if I let a palm mute ring out way too long, but otherwise seems fine!



Re: Heavy metal players, HOOOO!
by meambobbo on 2012-06-18 20:18:31

Hey Paul, here's the meambobbo version of that patch.

I can't really get a great sound I like out of the wah, hehe.  I went with a Mid Focus plus a Parametric.  And I used dual cabs - XXL 409 Dyn + Hiway 57 on axis.  Let me know what you think.



Re: Heavy metal players, HOOOO!
by jimsreynolds on 2012-06-19 02:09:22

Haha

I tend to think of it as more more of an 'Oracle' than a black hole.  If you make the right offerings there are no guarantees but on a long cold hungry winter someone may occasionally drop a chicken down the chimney, unexpectedly.



Re: Heavy metal players, HOOOO!
by drache713 on 2012-07-10 16:02:06

Wow both of your patches chimp and meambobbo's sound amazing! Thank you for posting these!



Re: Heavy metal players, HOOOO!
by meambobbo on 2012-07-10 21:19:57

glad you like.  i have a lot more here: http://foobazaar.com/podhd/toneDemo/">http://foobazaar.com/podhd/toneDemo/">http://foobazaar.com/podhd/toneDemo/ and that's about to get updated.



Re: Heavy metal players, HOOOO!
by jwbrkr on 2012-08-29 08:02:21

dude, do you mind posting a valid link for those patches again? seems like dropbox deleted it... greetings from germany!



Re: Heavy metal players, HOOOO!
by robbec2012 on 2012-08-29 19:39:04

someone post the patch!! please!! -./



Re: Heavy metal players, HOOOO!
by meambobbo on 2012-08-29 20:32:56

I posted chimp spanners patches in this thread above for hd500



Re: Heavy metal players, HOOOO!
by robbec2012 on 2012-08-30 01:24:09

got it! for some reason it was downloading with jpg at the end weird..



Re: Heavy metal players, HOOOO!
by jwbrkr on 2012-08-30 02:03:19

do you still have those for pro? I'm using Pod HD Pro



Re: Heavy metal players, HOOOO!
by meambobbo on 2012-08-30 06:40:56

the forum for some reason doesn't allow patch files to be attached to posts.  So we add and remove the .jpg extension to be able to upload patches posing as images.



Re: Heavy metal players, HOOOO!
by HDProJohn on 2012-08-30 07:04:11

This post got my interest, so much so, that I spent all night playing around with the wah configuration. It really does work well for a 7 string (didn't have as good of luck for the 6 stringer - found the TS9 to be a better match so far). It took away the shrill top end that I suffered from when trying to get more bite in the low end. Thanks to Chimp Spanner for posting this idea!

Now, I've got a question, the concept confuses me. I'll explain my understanding of how these components work and hopefully someone can shed some light. A wah pedal has an associated variable mid-range band pass that's followed by a sharp low pass filter. With the wah fully open, I saw that the average frequency response (from Google Images) seems to place the peak of the hump around 1700 Hz followed by the drop-off. I didn't read anywhere that compression is an integral part of a wah, similar to the TS9, it's just a variable band pass filter with a LP filter. Ok, this makes sense so far. Basically, we're boosting the pick attack sound which is great for low tuned, djenty riffs, BUT then we come in and use a large Q on a parametric EQ and take out a bunch at 68-72% (about 1800-2100 Hz according to Meambobbo's page). That alone is confusing. We've just cut out the focused mid boost that we put in! What am I missing in the understanding? Is it because everything below the mid bump is also boosted (flat respnose boost on all low end to a mid-focus bump to a LP) and that's what we're really going after, not the pick attack boost? Or are we still putting in the pick attack with a low-end boost, but minimizing the amount of pick attack with the parametric?

Sorry for the length post...

Take it easy.



Re: Heavy metal players, HOOOO!
by meambobbo on 2012-08-30 09:32:18

My best guess would be that the Wah is mainly used for its LP filter.  The mids-peak is going to make the tone too thin, distorting it heavily at that one spot - probably too much so.  That'd give you a kind of splatty pick attack.  The Parametric smooths out the mid peak so that you get more frequencies pushed to distortion for fuller sound, but you're still sucking out enough bass to prevent the distortion from getting farty.

I can't look at the patch right now, but that's how I think I remember it. If the Parametric is after the amp, though, then it'd just be scooping the EQ for the final tone, not trying to dial in a specific distortion tone.



Re: Heavy metal players, HOOOO!
by HDProJohn on 2012-08-30 10:54:21

That makes perfect sense. Introduce a controllable LP filter and then smooth over the introduced hump without having to eat up a bunch of FX blocks for some preamp EQing since there isn't a very good EQ ITB. It sure would be nice to get a multi-band parametric EQ with Hz & dB vs. % & %; maybe some shelves too.

Thank you for the response, meambobbo.



Re: Heavy metal players, HOOOO!
by meambobbo on 2012-08-30 11:02:58

As an aside, and not to steer this thread elsewhere, I just wanted to mention that the Line 6 Drive I am now finding fairly invaluable in its ability to dial in almost precisely the mids peak you want, using the mids parameter, which seems to act as a shift, not as gain.  Then you dial in Bass and Treble to taste.  The only issue is at high mids settings, the tone can get kind of splatty, which you need to clean up via a Mid-Focus EQ or maybe a Studio.



Re: Heavy metal players, HOOOO!
by glenneke on 2012-08-31 03:02:46

Woow thanks for sharing these patches, I have a 6th string guitar and it translate well. The Open Wah Rhythm 1 is very good and it sounds very well in a mix. Below is an example, don't mind the sloppy playing it was quick testing with a lot of fun !!!

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/10057893/Chimpspanner%20preset%20test.mp3




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