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On Page 1 there are 5 listed threads about Problems with the DT-25....
by spikey on 2012-08-05 18:51:16

Just saying, if I were shopping for a new amp this would scare the hell outta me.

Minor or not this sticks out like a sore thumb.

Come on Line 6- lets start kicking some assy line ass here...



Re: On Page 1 there are 5 listed threads about Problems with the DT-25....
by sopachrga on 2012-08-06 03:42:52

It's a support forum, what else would you expect?

Not only that.... it's a support forum for DT25/DT50 amps.....



Re: On Page 1 there are 5 listed threads about Problems with the DT-25....
by spikey on 2012-08-06 06:37:53

Since When did we start assuming that its hunky dory to have issues with our gear just because there is a support forum to discuss them???

That is totally bass ackwards thinking to me... No one is perfect but still.... Lets not make this excuse, please...



Re: On Page 1 there are 5 listed threads about Problems with the DT-25....
by TheRealZap on 2012-08-06 10:59:58

there's not any product that has a support forum with no issues...

not an excuse.. but most don't come to support forums to check in and say they have no issues.



Re: On Page 1 there are 5 listed threads about Problems with the DT-25....
by sopachrga on 2012-08-06 13:04:13

There is simply no way an electrical product which has the complexity of Line 6 gear (and the quantity produced) will be able to have no issues. It's the nature of electrical components (and software).

I think you'll find that based on the number of units shipped, there is a pretty low failure rate in Line 6 gear.

The cost involved in reducing the fault/failure rate would be huge, and also follow a pattern of diminishing returns. The cost would end up having to be passed on to you (the buyer) and it would be pretty substantial.

I for one, am very impressed at the quality of the items produced by line 6. I've owned much much more expensive gear from high end manufacturers and had more issues with those than I ever have with Line 6 gear.



Re: On Page 1 there are 5 listed threads about Problems with the DT-25....
by spikey on 2012-08-06 16:25:34

And lets not kid ourselves here, there are many trends that can be tracked by such a forum as this. And yes im aware of what this place is for. Im just saying,  lets not say that its OK to have issues with Line 6 products just because we have a support forum to discuss it. I work in an electronics plant where we once ordered resistors from Japan with 5% tolorances. What we got in was shocking to say the least. Out of the one hundred resistors ordered, there were 2 seperate bags. One had 80 resistors with an exact reading of 100 ohms. The other bag had 20 resistors that were not 100 ohms exactly, off by a little. So we got our 5% on the nose... These people gave us "exactly" what we ordered. The point is that If its normal (acceptable) to have 5 % of our products roll off Line 6 assy lines broken,  just because we have a forum to discuss it, then that is exactly what we will get....Be impressed all you want... 



Re: On Page 1 there are 5 listed threads about Problems with the DT-25....
by sopachrga on 2012-08-06 17:41:28

As I said, your alternative is to pay for it. Don't think it'll come cheap either.

I think Line 6 has it right, keep it cheap, know there will be faults. Given that you are talking about an electrical device with a 2-3 (at a guess) year turn over (Until it is superseded by a new model) I think that's the right move. I wouldn't pay any more for a pod/DT25 than what it already costs, to have the failure rate decreased. There is no need, that's what I have a warranty for.

You have to remember, we aren't talking about $4000 Diezel amps here.

There is no such thing as a free lunch.

*Quote*:

The point is that If its normal (acceptable) to have 5 % of our products roll off Line 6 assy lines broken,  just because we have a forum to discuss it, then that is exactly what we will get

*end*

You can make up numbers about Line 6 failure rates all you want. It doesn't make your argument any more valid.



Re: On Page 1 there are 5 listed threads about Problems with the DT-25....
by spikey on 2012-08-06 17:45:36

And so judging by what you read here and looking at the forum in general, if you were looking for a new amp knowing Line 6 "keeps it cheap" as you state, would you then buy an amp from them sopachrga?

Really?

sopachrga wrote:

As I said, your alternative is to pay for it. Don't think it'll come cheap either.

I think Line 6 has it right, keep it cheap, know there will be faults.

There is no such thing as a free lunch.

And BTW- 1199.00 for a DT50 head is NOT a free lunch, at least for me....



Re: On Page 1 there are 5 listed threads about Problems with the DT-25....
by sopachrga on 2012-08-06 17:48:13

Yes, and I did.

I own a DT50 head.

I haven't had any issues with it. I also know that if I did, my warranty would take care of it.

I'm happy with the price I paid for it.

Would I have paid more for it, with the thought that it might marginally lower it's (already very low) chance of a fault.... No, not a chance.



Re: On Page 1 there are 5 listed threads about Problems with the DT-25....
by spikey on 2012-08-06 17:49:56

The forum was NOT full of DT50 problems on the 1st page, when you or I bought our DT50's... And there was no "they are keeping it cheap" comments either then... Lets try and stay honest here...



Re: On Page 1 there are 5 listed threads about Problems with the DT-25....
by sopachrga on 2012-08-06 17:51:55

I would buy another one, or a DT25 right now without any worries.



Re: On Page 1 there are 5 listed threads about Problems with the DT-25....
by spikey on 2012-08-06 17:53:50

AND Im not making up failure rates. I dont have to... Count them yourself on the 1st page...



Re: On Page 1 there are 5 listed threads about Problems with the DT-25....
by sopachrga on 2012-08-06 17:54:11

BTW, you are taking my "Keeping it cheap" comment out of context.

I wasn't claiming that they cut corners and intentionally make a poor quality unit to keep price down.

I was saying that they (as does every company) have a limit to how much quality control can be applied to a product before the price has to start to increase to cover it.



Re: On Page 1 there are 5 listed threads about Problems with the DT-25....
by sopachrga on 2012-08-06 17:57:21

Ok, obviously you can't tell that there is a 5% failure rate based upon the few failed units on the front page you have no idea about the total number of units produced.

It's becoming clear that you are arguing just for the sake of it, with no real experience of what you are talking about. Pulling figures out of the air is a waste of your time and mine.

Feel free to continue on your little escapade here, but I'm done.



Re: On Page 1 there are 5 listed threads about Problems with the DT-25....
by spikey on 2012-08-06 18:06:02

Thought you were done?   And just where did you get I said they had a 5% failure rate? From my example of resistors ? You pulled that outta the air then because all that was, was an example to show you to be careful or you will get what you ask for. Thanks for the chat...



Re: On Page 1 there are 5 listed threads about Problems with the DT-25....
by sopachrga on 2012-08-06 18:07:50

oh, I have to come back for this one, as it proves my point about you.

You'll notice the post where I said I was done was actually posted after the one you are commenting on....

Look at the times.

Have fun, guy.



Re: On Page 1 there are 5 listed threads about Problems with the DT-25....
by spikey on 2012-08-06 18:09:10

So now we are name calling... cute Sop... And no, I didnt take your original "make it cheap" and accept failures comment out of context. I just used it in way you didnt like for me to. Like I said- $1199.00 for a DT50 head isnt chump change... Thats alot of money for me. If we agree that Line 6 makes their products cheap to save money as you claimed, then what does that say about their products to future buyers ?... You stepped in that one, not I... I agree that all electronics will fail at some point and that Line 6 is not perfect. In fact, the rash of DT25 problems on the 1st page may be pure coincidence. Stranger things have happened. And Im sure there are MANY more people satisfied with their DT series amps, than are dis- satisfied. That said, from the looks of things on the 1st page here, Line 6 QA isnt trying as hard as they might it seems to me... Simple- if they cant get the product to work right then dont ship it out... PERIOD. If you think thats extreme then Im thinking your not over the age of 35 and have no idea how it was done before we were all programed to believe that failures and sub standard quality control is just a way of life... I.E. Normal... Moot point here but maybe thats why we have so many "support" forums now days eh? Lots of failures there on the 1st page as I stated.. I agree that in these times a support forum is needed for unforunate failures in our purchases since there are so many... But too many Failures are my issue here, not the discussing of them. Dont get me wrong, even if this one has a very tight protective cover that rejects criticism even when its warranted at times, the help is appreciated.   I just dont adhere to any amount of failures being excused,  just because there is a support forum here to discuss it. And I do not agree we should use this forum as an answer for the amounts of failures that are listed... I think it is what it is, failures... And I dont buy into the fact that if we should sugar coat how wonderful failure rates seem here, that somehow QA at the Line 6 assy plant magically gets their act together. But thats just me. As always YMMV...



Re: On Page 1 there are 5 listed threads about Problems with the DT-25....
by toneman2121 on 2012-08-18 20:48:47

i know i caught this one late but we all can't be as perfect as you or your company. and i believe resistors are a bit less complex than pods.



Re: On Page 1 there are 5 listed threads about Problems with the DT-25....
by spikey on 2012-08-21 18:07:26

I dont have a company. Im a user and customer like you are toneman. I dont like the results im seeing here. And I noticed since you wrote your remarks above (and since I posted this) there are two more DT-25's listed that are either dead,  or headed back for repair. So I agree with you. Resistors are a bit more complex, as well as a working DT-25 it seems... Make all the excuses you want to. Fill this place up with broken Line 6 gear and use the excuses that they are listed here because its a support forum. Good for the forum cause otherwise we wouldnt know- bad for the amounts of bad units however, dont you think?  You think people dont do any research these days on a support forum? Let me spell it out... Less sales mean less updates. Less updates means less time on the shelves for yours and my amp/gear.  Less time on the shelves mean we get our amps replaced sooner by other amp/gear that also can be listed here as being broken, at which time you can all make even more excuses as to why its listed here, again. Am I the only one here that see's an issue with lots of broken DT-25's recently?



Re: On Page 1 there are 5 listed threads about Problems with the DT-25....
by MerlinFL on 2012-08-21 19:36:42

sopachrga wrote:

I for one, am very impressed at the quality of the items produced by line 6.

Have you compared Line 6 gear produced starting with the JTV line, POD HD line, and the DT line with all other products produced earlier when making your statement I quoted?

Not looking to start anything and I take no responsibility if my words are misunderstood as combative by those extra sensitive people who might be reading.

I'm only pointing out what is clear to anyone who -like myself- does own both the older L6 gear and nearly all of the new L6 gear.  The DT amps are the biggest let down in construction quality in my opinion.  Here are the points I am basing my remarks on...

  1. All L6 amps from any line came with corner protectors (plastic or metal) until the DT series which have none and cost more & weigh more than most all prior amps.  Cutting corners is one, thing, but leaving them off completely to save a few pennies in production and a few dollars off the profit margin - not acceptable in my opinion based on the facts and reality of all gear by just Line 6 produced before the DT amp line.
  2. The tolex covering is by far the thinnest tolex covering I've ever seen in my near 35 years of using pro grade amps like Marshall, Fender, Ampeg, Acoustic, Orange, etc.  You can literally scratch this covering with your thumbnail.  That's pathetic and once again all for the profit margin and not the durability or consideration of those who buy this gear.  Please do not anyone say..."Well you can always get a roadcase for the DT amps."  Really?  No kidding, but that's true for any amp with corners, casters, and tougher tolex.  I've bought a $400.00 sturdy roadcase with locking swivel 4" casters for my Vetta 1 combo and amazingly...I've only had one mechanical failure since 2003 when I bought it new and have been using it nearly every week since for the past 9 years of live gigs in the worst weather for electronics here in Florida.  I now also bring a pair of DT50 1x12 combos to make my "L6 Pyramid of Sonic Bliss" (TM) yep - I even trademarked this title because at that point in time I was a Beta tester, and extremely proud of being associated with Line 6 and all it's products that I came to rely on and respect nearly a decade ago.  I still love my Variax electric model 700 guitars I have a pair (one trans amber & one trans red - interestingly enough, the exact same red as used for Wine Red on some of the new JTV guitars) of.  Those guitars made in Japan still work great and the sound is always up to date and by design should never go out of style or useful purpose.  I added the JTV guitars to them.  One other thing on this corner cutting point...I find it very interesting the JTV-59 has the identical headstock as the previous Variax model 700 guitars and is the only model with a completely different logo.  Only the JTV-89 & JTV-69 have unique headstocks which I find very strange since the entire line was designed, supervised, and finally agreed upon as the entire model set of James Tyler Variax guitars.
  3. As mentioned in previous paragraph - no casters or even pre-marked caster holes for amps that are very heavy for their size.  Almost like old school Fender Twin amps. No L6 amp I know of ever came built with casters, but most Spider amps are very light, only the Vetta 2x12 combo amp at the time they were new are pretty heavy, but even so - still weigh less than a 1x12 DT50 amp.  Why not add that feature to the Flagship amp line?  I'd pay extra for it if they swivel and could pop out for stacking.
  4. All POD HD units have inferior power connectors that constantly break no matter how gently they are handled.  Why not go with the RJ45 type connector for power like all the FBV and other footboards L6 produces?  I finally just hard-wired the power cord with strain relief on both sides of the frame so I never have to worry about the DC receptacle breaking or just stop working again.
  5. For that matter - why not have the POD HD pedals get power from the L6 Link connection?  If that meant adding a pin or two in the original design (retrofit - out of the question) why not do it?  Now the Flagship "Dream Rig" costs more, does some things better, some things worse, and you always have to have power in the back as well as in the front if you use any amp with any POD HD pedalboard.

So these are my facts to base my question upon being curious about your statement.  No reply needed, but I'm just curious how much of what I just wrote anyone including yourself have given any thought to while defending the "new" Line 6 approach to production and retail sales compared to how the company used to handle all the points I've mentioned prior to...hmmmm...let's say about 2007.



Re: On Page 1 there are 5 listed threads about Problems with the DT-25....
by MerlinFL on 2012-08-21 19:51:37

spikey wrote:

I dont have a company. Im a user and customer like you are toneman. I dont like the results im seeing here. And I noticed since you wrote your remarks above (and since I posted this) there are two more DT-25's listed that are either dead,  or headed back for repair. So I agree with you. Resistors are a bit more complex, as well as a working DT-25 it seems... Make all the excuses you want to. Fill this place up with broken Line 6 gear and use the excuses that they are listed here because its a support forum. Good for the forum cause otherwise we wouldnt know- bad for the amounts of bad units however, dont you think?  You think people dont do any research these days on a support forum? Let me spell it out... Less sales mean less updates. Less updates means less time on the shelves for yours and my amp/gear.  Less time on the shelves mean we get our amps replaced sooner by other amp/gear that also can be listed here as being broken, at which time you can all make even more excuses as to why its listed here, again. Am I the only one here that see's an issue with lots of broken DT-25's recently?

Not to drag you into my personal Hell Spikey, but I've never had any problem understanding anything you've ever written.  Perhaps it's people like me that are always being accused of things, or misunderstood about most things written that are the only people who have no trouble at all understanding what you mean when you write a comment.  I hope you have better luck on these boards then I did - I got banned from several Line 6 projects because I am..."too aggressive", "too combative", and "too irritating"...or at least that is what I was told by a few who work at Line 6.  Ever ask a question and get "Because" as the answer?  I personally hate that and will continue to ask or insist on an answer to something unanswered I feel very strongly about.  It's almost as bad as being completely ignored when finding a problem to submit before it escalates into something potentially much bigger and find that no one cares or wants to know what I have to say.  Apparently none of those people have ever lived in or worked in the NYC area like I had for decades prior to moving to FL.  Funny thing - some of those people don't work there anymore and most all of the "old guard" that was as enthusiastic as I used to be, are now working full-time elsewhere.  Go figure?

All the best and take take!!

Neal

PS - I had fun writing all these posts all over the forum after my self-imposed absence.  Now I can go back to just reading whatever is written and actually do work for the other companies who have no problem with my enthusiasm about their products.



Re: On Page 1 there are 5 listed threads about Problems with the DT-25....
by spikey on 2012-08-24 14:13:53

Another Expert wizzzed:  Have at me for daring to contradict you with fact - I'm far beyond caring what anyone thinks on here.

Well now, surprised im not for some reason. I however do hope Line 6 QA doesnt EVER think this way-  if they did that may indeed be the reason for this thread...

I do care what Line 6 does and thinks about our expensive equipment, to the point of calling them on the carpet here when I think they are messing up.

I also believe (for the most part) that what they have achieved with the Pod HD Pro and JTV, approaches holy grail status tone wise. That, is very hard to do.

MerlinFL wrote:

Not to drag you into my personal Hell Spikey, but I've never had any problem understanding anything you've ever written.

Appreciate the kind words Merlin.



Re: On Page 1 there are 5 listed threads about Problems with the DT-25....
by whiteop on 2012-10-09 19:54:23

It should. My DT-50 has crapped out on me twice this year and had to be repaired under warranty. I had the forethought to get extended coverage for an extra $200 or else my amp would be a $1299 paperweight right now. It's a good sounding amp but is highly unreliable as evidenced by all the complaints registered.



Re: On Page 1 there are 5 listed threads about Problems with the DT-25....
by RPascarella on 2012-10-10 10:00:07

As one who has a DT50 in repair right now under warranty, the biggest impact is the downtime without my amp.  It's been 2 weeks and they haven't even gotten to it yet with all the other repairs ahead of mine.  There's only 1 authorized service center here in Austin TX, so I'm stuck waiting.  Eventually it will get diagnosed, they'll order parts, and then I'm sure we'll wait weeks or months for a new power tranny to arrive.  Meanwhile I'm out an amp.

Sure, the warranty feels nice for coverage, but when you're actually down and out without your amp, the impact of lower quality becomes more real and painful.

Regardless, this is life, there's no guarantees.  I'd still buy the amp again, I love it.  I just wish Bogner would have spec'ed some better US-made transformers than Taiwanese-made Chuang Meei!.



Re: On Page 1 there are 5 listed threads about Problems with the DT-25....
by whiteop on 2012-10-10 11:46:56

well I have noticed that there are quite a few DT-50s being traded in at Guitar Center lately. I think people are scared they're amps are going to go out on them. Well founded fears from what I'm seeing. True it is a good sounding amp and I like the design but two breakdowns in a year; not good. Not too happy right now. Wouldn't recommend it to any friends I care about. Might to a few enemies....; )



Re: On Page 1 there are 5 listed threads about Problems with the DT-25....
by jyflorida on 2012-10-10 16:51:29

As a former DT50 owner, the reason I'm a former owner is due to numerous failures of all components of my dream rig.  In the case of the DT50, I would power it on & after "boot up", I'd get no sound regardless if I were using the Line 6 link or going direct to the guitar input.  I would have to power it off/on 2-3 times to get it to work.  The problem became progressively worse.  After 5 other separate failures of my rig, I ditched Line 6.  I haven't been on this board in several months & was wondering if it was just a run of bad luck with my stuff.  After catching up on the support boards, it appears a LOT of people have had problems.  FWIW, in 18 months I went through 3 HD500s, a Korean Variax, a US Variax, and a DT50.  I decided that enough was enough.




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