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Auto Trim failed
by negatiefmann on 2012-08-09 23:45:46

Hi,

i`m also one of the "lucky ones" which own a Stagescape.

I try to find out all the functions (which is not so easy without a good(!) reference manual..which is promised in the "pilots Guide").

One of my current problem is: the auto trim function.

if i try to "auto trim" a signal (e.g. Kick drum) i receive a error message which says "input signal too hot" ...or something like that.

unfortunately the is no "pad function" to ajust the incoming signal.

Any idea?



Re: Auto Trim failed
by ArneLine6 on 2012-08-10 07:23:50

It is very common that especially a kick drum, using a microphone like a beta 52 or similar, produces very high levels. Using the 1/4" input on the combi inputs solves this problem.



Re: Auto Trim failed
by dboomer on 2012-08-10 09:47:26

An Advanced Guide in traditional printed form will likely never exist.  There is a series of (ever expanding)  guides and resources here ...  http://line6.com/stagescape-m20d/resources

">http://line6.com/stagescape-m20d/resources">http://line6.com/stagescape-m20d/resources



Re: Auto Trim failed
by MerlinFL on 2012-08-10 12:18:34

I'm interested why you put "lucky ones" in quotes?  Are there others who have ordered this unit and not gotten it yet due to allocations, or are you simply not happy with the unit? 

If yes, is it for more reasons other than the ones you wrote about the reference manual and the auto trim feature not working?  I'd appreciate any further info if there actually are any other reasons or things about this mixer you are unhappy with.

I'm asking because I'm interested in this mixer, but at $2,500.00 it's not something I'm willing to risk on a unit that is unlike any other mixer in existence, and certainly nothing like any pro level or basic level FOH mixer I've ever worked with in my 30+ years doing live sound as well as 25+ years as a recording engineer in my own and other pro studios.

Thanks.

negatiefmann wrote:

Hi,

i`m also one of the "lucky ones" which own a Stagescape.

I try to find out all the functions (which is not so easy without a good(!) reference manual..which is promised in the "pilots Guide").

One of my current problem is: the auto trim function.

if i try to "auto trim" a signal (e.g. Kick drum) i receive a error message which says "input signal too hot" ...or something like that.

unfortunately the is no "pad function" to ajust the incoming signal.

Any idea?



Re: Auto Trim failed
by MerlinFL on 2012-08-10 12:50:16

I'm a bit shocked at this answer.  Why in the world would anyone want to use a high impedance mic, or even use a low to high impedance cable converter in a pro situation?  No where in the pro world is something like this found.  I would also guess it would be met with similar confusion as I have in reading this "solution" to a high input gain situation.

Even with a high output mic like a Beta 52, there are many more mics oout there with even higher output levels as models from AKG, EV, Sennheiser, Audix, etc. all have.  I prefer to have the clip light on most boards I've worked with to light up when the kick is hit for an instant so I know I've got the hottest signal to noise I can work with (most recording or PA consoles have anywhere from 2db up to 10db of headroom above the clip light indicator before the signal actually begins to clip) and then EQ as needed from there as long as the drummer has a clue on how to tune his own drums (Most do not and is the only instrument that someone can get paid to play and not know how to properly tune - think about it.).

And there is no PAD switch on this mixer?  Plus your response of using a 1/4" input as the solution to the previous statement about the very understandable concern regarding a feature not working worries me big time.  How does anyone work with this mixer if you can't adjust the input gain level for any XLR input signal for the sale price of $2,500.00?

I hope Line 6 is coming out with a fix to this feature malfunction as well as perhaps an internal software version of a PAD switch for those of you who already made the purchase of this unit.  I'm glad I chose not to "leap" before looking here for the remarks of those who have purchased this unit.

While I'm here - anyone reading these posts go to any of the in-store demonstration of the full PA system?  If they are miking up a band for demo purposes, I wonder how those demo people are getting around this very basic input signal situation as mentioned? 

One of several ways I know to get around a situation like this is to use an AKG 414 at about $1,000.00 per mic unmatched (They come in response Q matched pairs for use in many applications where you want the exact same response from two of these mics if anyone did not know why I mentioned that.).  That model mic has it's own -10 db and -20 db PAD built right on the mic.  other high end mics available also have the same built in PAD features.  That's one way around this input problem, but at a very high cost.

Another way would be to use an XLR attenuator adapter or cable adapter.  Much cheaper and does work, but it's not what I would expect to have to do for a mixer that costs as much as this mixer does.

Perhaps my suggestions will help those with this problem until Line 6 can come up with a much better resolution.


AWallbrecher wrote:

It is very common that especially a kick drum, using a microphone like a beta 52 or similar, produces very high levels. Using the 1/4" input on the combi inputs solves this problem.



Re: Auto Trim failed
by silverhead on 2012-08-10 13:21:33

Here's a snip from the M20d setup Examples document. This document is in the Resources section that was highlighted earlier in this thread - anyone can consult it.

Trim Tracking:

When a channel’s input is too hot, enter Deep Tweak Mode, tap the Input tab, then

engage Trim Tracking to avoid distortion without changing the channel’s overall volume.

Perhaps this will help. I don't think anyone should jump to conclusions about whether or not there is a 'feature malfunction' or whether Line 6 needs to fix anything here until you/we hear from them about how to address your issue. Have you opened a support ticket so that you can hear directly from Line 6 about this?



Re: Auto Trim failed
by MerlinFL on 2012-08-10 14:43:35

Do you own one of these units? 

I don't and am waiting as stated to read as many posts as possible before considering spending the money for such a unit.

As you have copied either the answer or one of possible answers to the dilemna stated at the topiof this thread...

Hi,

i`m also one of the "lucky ones" which own a Stagescape.

I try to find out all the functions (which is not so easy without a good(!) reference manual..which is promised in the "pilots Guide").

One of my current problem is: the auto trim function.

if i try to "auto trim" a signal (e.g. Kick drum) i receive a error message which says "input signal too hot" ...or something like that.

unfortunately the is no "pad function" to ajust the incoming signal.

Any idea?

Any thoughts why you were able to find the info you posted so easily while this gentleman and unit owner was not able to accomplish the same results from his attempts to find any Line 6 recommendations or answers to this or any other "typical" situations that would happen when using various mics or other input devices?  I find your results and his very different ones curious as I'm not an owner of this unit, nor have I had any hands on experience with it and therefore no need to do my own research on what manuals, etc. might be available online here at the Line 6 site in the manuals section.  Do you think there might be  a better way for Line 6 to popint out how to find these answers in a more easily understood way to help relieve much of confusion many seem to have with the online munals choice by Line 6?

I do remember all too well the mass confusion by owners with gear I also own and use with the new money saving choice Line 6 made in producing only a minimal start-up guide and then directing all owners to take advantage of resources located in the Manual section of this website for Advanced manuals, Guides, etc.  My personal feelings about thier choice are irrelevent...and I also personally had no problem going online and reading all then printing out any info I felt I wanted or needed to have in my possession in printed form as I worked my way through the learning process of all the POD HD, JTV, and DT50 gear.



Re: Auto Trim failed
by dboomer on 2012-08-10 16:36:11

I'm a bit shocked at this answer.  Why in the world would anyone want to use a high impedance mic, or even use a low to high impedance cable converter in a pro situation?  No where in the pro world is something like this found.  I would also guess it would be met with similar confusion as I have in reading this "solution" to a high input gain situation.

Hey Merlin

I believe you may not be interpreting this suggestion correctly.  No one suggested any impedance converter.  In the pro world most mixers when you switch in a pad you are just effectively unplugging it from the mic input and moving the input to the line input. There are certainly other "pro" mixer that do not have pad switches ... Midas Venice would be one example.  There is some slight impedance change, but it is inconsequential and it is exactly the same as if you switched in a pad switch.  In our case the line input is a balanced input so there is no penalty, in fact you can easily use the 1/4" line inputs for mics that aren't even as hot as this one.



Re: Auto Trim failed
by antonioctd on 2012-08-11 05:19:19

Does that happen very often? Or is it just on a high output mic in a very loud kick drum?

After reading the answer for the problem I thought:

Ok this is not ideal... but if it works just means that I'll have to carry XLR to balanced 1/4'' adapters and use the adapters the same way I would use the pad switch on a "normal" mixer.

This is a bit disappointing... And it certainly doesn't feel right! Spending 2500$ in a complete mixing system to solve all my problems and them having to carry this adapters to deal with high levels...

However, if this is very rare and is just a matter of carrying one or two adapters "just in case" it might not be a deal breaker.... 



Re: Auto Trim failed
by dboomer on 2012-08-11 11:07:07

The mic preamps do have a limit of +15 dBu in.  That is almost universally considered to be line level and would be more than enough to drive even a big power amplifier to full output.  Microphones typically put out millivolts.

So yes ... there are some exceptions to everything but the solution is a simple $10 cable



Re: Auto Trim failed
by MerlinFL on 2012-08-11 12:08:25

Sorry if I'm misunderstanding the suggestion suggested by ArneLine6 as a fix or temporary fix.

And your mixer comparison related to my confusion about the solution to the lack of PAD switches is to mention this mixer brand/model console?http://www.planetdj.com/i--VENICE160&?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_term=product%20ads&utm_content=googlebase

Ifit was to make a point about top-of-the-line mixers wioth decades of worldwide acceptance of being at the top of the mixer choice list - okay, I'll go with it as I'm at a severe disadvantage discussing any of the Line 6 PA gear that I do not have, nor have any way to see it, or try it for myself to form my own opinion.  But perhaps shooting me down is the best option although you do write after responding to my comment with exactly what I wrote about using an adapter cable to switch mic input to 1/4" line input.

And this gentleman wrote...

Does that happen very often? Or is it just on a high output mic in a very loud kick drum?

After reading the answer for the problem I thought:

Ok this is not ideal... but if it works just means that I'll have to carry XLR to balanced 1/4'' adapters and use the adapters the same way I would use the pad switch on a "normal" mixer.

This is a bit disappointing... And it certainly doesn't feel right! Spending 2500$ in a complete mixing system to solve all my problems and them having to carry this adapters to deal with high levels...

However, if this is very rare and is just a matter of carrying one or two adapters "just in case" it might not be a deal breaker.... 

Sounds very much like what I wrote about spending $2,500.00 for a console only to have to go out and get adapter cables because the mixer has no way to compensate for hot signals connected via XLR inputs.  And apparently he is disappointed, but doesn't mind spending extra money to compensate for the lack of features with this relatively expensive mixer.

While we're on the subject of switches and adapters required for this mixer...

What about phase inversion when miking the top & bottom of a snare?  Any feature on the M20d mixer there to deal with this or is this another adapter required fix as well?  Does anyone even mic both heads of a snare anymore these days like us "old school" guys always do?

I'm reading all these post trying to learn as much as I can about this new mixer.  So any questions or comments I write are based on other remarks or discoveries written by those who actually own this unit.



Re: Auto Trim failed
by dboomer on 2012-08-11 12:24:16

What about phase inversion when miking the top & bottom of a snare?

Yes ... there are polarity switches on the inputs.



Re: Auto Trim failed
by silverhead on 2012-08-11 14:53:43

MerlinFL wrote:

Do you own one of these units? 

...

Any thoughts why you were able to find the info you posted so easily...

No, I don't have/own one.

I followed the link dboomer provided in Response #2 of this thread. Many documents are posted there.



Re: Auto Trim failed
by MerlinFL on 2012-08-13 21:34:34

Thanks for the info.

dboomer wrote:

What about phase inversion when miking the top & bottom of a snare?

Yes ... there are polarity switches on the inputs.



Re: Auto Trim failed
by sdevino on 2012-08-16 16:54:16

During beta I did a gig with the M20d where Taylor Hawkins was the drummer and Chris Shiflett was the guitar play. This was a cover band that goes by the name of Chevy Metal here in LA but sharp eyed readers will recognize what other band these two gentlmen play in.

The M20d handled all of Taylor Hawkins drums using regular dynamic mics without attenuation and with plenty of headroom. It was one of the loudest bands I have heard in a long time. These guys are pretty "Pro" if you will.

Steve



Re: Auto Trim failed
by negatiefmann on 2012-08-20 05:53:57

Still trying...but it doesn`t work.

i can decrease the trimm..but the signal (vox, bass drum, snare) is still too hot.

any other ideas?



Re: Auto Trim failed
by negatiefmann on 2012-08-20 07:24:09

Still trying...but it doesn`t work.

i can decrease the trimm..but the signal (vox, bass drum, snare) is still too hot.

any other ideas?



Re: Auto Trim failed
by dboomer on 2012-08-20 08:16:10

What you are seeing is that the auto trim function is not hitting it's target value because the signal that you are inputting is above that value.  It's not showing a problem and you are not clipping intil you input above 15 dBu.

The auto trim attmpts to set a value of "0" and if you are above it, then you are above it.  As long as you don't then turn the channel up into the top red light on the meter you will have no issues.



Re: Auto Trim failed
by Line6Tony on 2012-08-21 17:26:29

The Advanced Guide has just been posted at http://line6.com/support/manuals/stagescapestyle="color: #000000; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; background-color: #ffffff;">. Hope this helps all who have the mixer.



Re: Auto Trim failed
by tochiro on 2012-08-21 23:44:57

How about me translating it into French? 




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