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Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by kidgloves2 on 2009-05-24 10:57:03

Fractal audio is going to cause some competition with line6. My axe-fx blows away the X3 i had. The axe-fx is the most amazing thing i ever used! But why does it sound so much better than anything line6 ever put out?

I only type this because I hope line6 puts out something of the same quality. I like to see healthy competition. I've always been a fan of Line6.

Plus line6 is always affordable. The axe-fx ran me 2k. (IT's so worth the 2k though)



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by wardick on 2009-05-24 12:46:04

The Line 6 X3 products made me sell all my Line 6 products and explore other products.  Line 6 and Fractal are two different markets.  Enjoy your Ultra.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by kidgloves2 on 2009-05-24 13:04:40

Thank you, I am enjoying it so much. It models everything so accurately. I can't even believe this thing is as good as it is. It blows my mind every time I turn it on.....or does it turn me on? LOL!

Again, I'm not trying to disrespect line6 on their own site. I only encourage them to step it up to either equal the Axe-Fx or top it. Maybe Line6 can make theirs more bass guitar and vocal friendly.

But as of right now, I will be using the Fractal Audio Axe-Fx for years. Adrian Belew even jumped on board. Now that's an endorsement!



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Bluestone on 2009-05-24 17:34:40

I guess...by comparrison....I'm getting a pretty good buy for $450.00 with my X3 in comparrison to $2,000......

I'd expect a $2,000 piece of gear to be pretty darn good!

Enjoy your new gear!

OM



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by mikey1 on 2009-05-25 09:32:45

You cant compare them. One is major league and the other is not. It's like comparing Eventide to Boss. If you cant hear the difference, you dont need the Eventide. If you read the posts on this forum from two years ago, you'd see people here saying the clips sounded crappy, the Pod was better, etc. Now, read Hadleys post and it's much different. I'd bet a dollar to a donut a lot of longtime Line 6 users will be Axe owners within the next year. 



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by toneman2121 on 2009-05-25 11:25:55

if i had 2 g's i'd buy one. it seems the products being compared are in different catagories. you really can't compare the two. it would be like racing the top qualifier in street stock with the top qualifier in pro stock. both are the quickest in the quater mile but there's no contest since one is modified with a few thousand dollars, and the other with ten times that much.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by kidgloves2 on 2009-05-25 11:33:03

The way I see things now, the X3 is only good for recording demos and practising. But the Axe-Fx can be used for pro recordings. That's my opinion though.

When enough people get to experience the Axe-Fx, they aren't going to care about spending 2K dollars.

I'm even considering selling some of my tube amps and analog/digital fx, because I seriously don't need them anymore. That's how good I feel about Fractal Audio. Line6 never made me feel that way. But I always appreciated line6 for what it was.

Anyone want to buy a:

Fender Twin reverb

Mesa Boogie Mark IV with half cab

countless fx (like 25 awesome pedals.)

I'll be putting everything on ebay soon

(I'll always keep my Mark II C+ though. I just can't part with that)



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by thirdnostril on 2009-05-25 12:04:23

Thanks for posting! I always love hearing about gear I can't possibly afford. It's an extra bonus that you threw in that crack about L6 only being good for demo's.

"No one will mind spending $2,000."

No, not as long as their spending Mommy and Daddy's money.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by kidgloves2 on 2009-05-25 12:17:14

Well, most of us don't rely on mommy and daddy. And the X3 still has a place in the world. Use whatever is in your means. And don't be immature.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Insidian on 2009-05-25 14:09:34

Brother, I use my X3L for practice and shows, and I get compliments on my tone all the time. Sure, I'd love to have an Axe-Fx, but I'd never sell my L6 gear for it. My gear gets the job done, and rather well. Only for practice and recording demos? Sure thing man.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by toneman2121 on 2009-05-25 14:20:30

where can i experience axe-fx?



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Insidian on 2009-05-25 14:21:37

Buy one, 15 day return policy. Or find someone that owns one near you. Or check out the forums.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by kidgloves2 on 2009-05-25 14:32:28

yea, there is a 15 day return policy. But you won't return it. You can also go the the Fractal Audio website and ask forum members in your area if you can try theirs. Someone may help you.

And yea, the X3 still is an awesome unit. Of course you can use it in a pro setting. My only point was after using the Axe-Fx, my view of the X3 changed. It was like..."how can I possibly go back?" I probably should have kept my X3 as a live backup. But I just use my Fender twin reverb with a few stompboxes as a live backup. I mike it and send it throught the pa. The X3 could just go direct to the pa and probably is more reliable. Less working parts than an amp and a bunch of cables and stompboxes. So yea, the X3 is still a great piece of gear.

Plus Line6 is ALWAYS affordable. I'm still a fan of Line6 and will always check their new gear. I totally believe they will catch up the Fractal audio too. I pretty much only started this thread to get some wheels turning......hopefully.

Just trust me. Your view of the X3 changes a lot after using the Axe-Fx. No youtube video will ever do that for anyone, you have to compare them in person.

Maybe Line 6 can make a 64bit unit with 192k or more...( I have no idea what I'm talking about..lol) I really don't know the technical info on these things, I only know what they sound/feel like. But maybe they can outdo Fractal Audio in the long run and make that product more affordable.

Who knows.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by nuser101 on 2009-05-25 15:14:27

mikey1 wrote:

If you cant hear the difference, you dont need the Eventide. If you read the posts on this forum from two years ago, you'd see people here saying the clips sounded crappy, the Pod was better, etc.

+1

In fact, two years ago there were numerous posts that a POD XT (not X3) had been A/B'd to a Marshall and a neutral observer couldn't tell the difference. When the X3 came out, there were posts that it's sound was better - specifically, "more open." I guess Marshall must have made a lot of closed sounding amps  (or closed backed cabinets)



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2009-05-25 19:17:40

kidgloves2 wrote:

The way I see things now, the X3 is only good for recording demos and practising. But the Axe-Fx can be used for pro recordings. That's my opinion though.

And not to inflame anything here, but that probably is a minority opinion.  Especially considering how many PODs you see in pro studios.  That product is all over commercial recordings.  It didn't suddenly start to sound horrible because Fractal released their product.

I think the Axe-Fx is a great piece of gear.  Sounds wonderful.  But I doubt I'll ever own one.  For that kind of cash, I'd rather play through the real thing.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2009-05-25 19:25:29

mikey1 wrote:

If you read the posts on this forum from two years ago, you'd see people here saying the clips sounded crappy, the Pod was better, etc.

I chalk that up to very enthusiastic, yet inexperienced tweakers on the Axe.  Now that they've had some time to really get to know the unit, they're producing better sound clips.

I can honestly say that a few years ago, I was scratching my head wondering why anyone would think it was so much better than a POD.  A majority of the clips on their forum, I'm sorry to say, sucked.  That's not the case anymore.  It has a great sound, but it just took a while for people to get up to speed on it in order to demo it properly.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by stumpsout on 2009-05-25 22:16:02

that, and the fact that they have firmware updates frequently. It didn't sound as good as it does now, too. Look how they worked with Radley,... within days of his feedback it was implemented!

All other points aside, this one puts L6 to shame IMO. That impressed the heck outta me.....as I was hearing about how many months I would have to wait for the fix for the "known and documented" chorus volume boost bug in the M13...and freshly recalling some other past examples of months and years of wait time for fixes. Even a couple, "nah, we changed our minds about that" examples.

But ya, c'mon... the Pod is quite capable of pro recordings, in the right hands.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Starriddin on 2009-05-25 23:51:33

It's all apples and oranges. A 2k unit better sound better than a $500.00 unit , right? Otherwise, why make it or buy it? I am a hobbiest. I want my recordings to sound their best, but, as I don't sell them or play live for my income, I will never be able to justify the cost of the Axe. Not when it costs more than my instrument. And, speaking from ignorance, does the Axe record dry with plugins to substitue at will? If not, that's a major disadvantage in my book!



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2009-05-26 05:27:21

stumpsout wrote:

that, and the fact that they have firmware updates frequently...

how many months I would have to wait for the fix for the "known and documented" chorus volume boost bug in the M13...

They do seem to be able to turn around firmware updates quickly, don't they?   Don't get me wrong, Rich Renken is a cool dude and is seems more responsive than his peers in other product lines here, but unless I'm mistaken, you're still waiting for that chorus volume boost fix, right?  Last I heard, late summer as the ETA?  I remember that bug being reported right around when I bought the M13 last October.  That's one of the big reasons why I don't have that piece of gear anymore.  That and the decision not to do any updates or additions to the models in a device that seems updatable.

This has always been Line6's major problem:  the ability to respond quickly with software updates.  I can only guess that they are like a lot of other companies these days and have downsized their development staff, and/or offshored some of their coding.  Of course, Cliff is pretty much a team of one, isn't he?  It's just that he has a single product and can naturally move faster.  Doesn't have to split his attention over multiple product lines.

Anyway, it matters not to me.  I know what I want and I know how to get it.  I'm sticking to products from Line6 that either physically can't be updated or that don't need updating:  X2 Wireless, SV, UX2.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by toneman2121 on 2009-05-26 06:11:51

so, lend me 2000 and i promise i'll give it back! REALLY!



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by stumpsout on 2009-05-26 07:18:19

I bailed on the M13. That was a major reason.

Yeah, Cliff has an advantage in the update department. The thing is that he is striving to improve it, still. And promptly. That's very cool, he could probably rest on his laurels by now.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by mikey1 on 2009-05-26 08:56:21

"And not to inflame anything here, but that probably is a minority opinion."

Only here. And I'd disagree with that assesment as well because I've made a modest living using Line 6 for 10 years. But elsewhere I think that's the general consensus.

"But I doubt I'll ever own one."

I think you will. I really do. A lot of us will. Because it's our passion. I think that eventually, you'll get an itch that Line 6 just cant scratch. You'll get your hands on one and that will be it.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2009-05-26 09:34:37

mikey1 wrote:

I think you will. I really do. A lot of us will. Because it's our passion. I think that eventually, you'll get an itch that Line 6 just cant scratch. You'll get your hands on one and that will be it.

Well, you never know, but as far as my live performances go, I'm an amp guy.  And I've started down a path of slowly moving away from modeling for those kinds of things.  The craving, for me, to get a bigger and better modeler just isn't there anymore.  Because in the end, it will still be a model of the real thing.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by nuser101 on 2009-05-27 00:03:01

Most of the time, I agree. However, since my band has decided on a straight to board approach for a variety of reasons (Portability, lack of micing issues, etc), I can't really use one on stage anymore. The direct to board approach is really advantageous in clubs with limited stage space, and that's an issue in a lot of St Louis "shotgun" style bars.

Then there's the issue of the number of tubes modern amps use to get clean crunch and in your face type sounds. Take the Mark V, for example:

4x6L6 (or 4xEL-34), 7x12AX7, 1x5U4 . That could hit you with some expensive maintenance bills down the road, even though the initial cost is about the same as the Ultra. Then, there's the quality of effects in the AXE, that you don't have to spring for when you do the real deal. Finally, there's my 56 year old back - oh, wait, that's a personal issue.  Bottom line is that you're right, but there are secondary considerations.

I noticed your X3 PRO is for sale - are you sticking with the SV, or saving up for the "real deal". If so, what variant of the "real deal" are you negotiating?



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2009-05-27 06:16:02

nuser101 wrote:

I noticed your X3 PRO is for sale - are you sticking with the SV, or saving up for the "real deal". If so, what variant of the "real deal" are you negotiating?

Sticking with the SV's for now.  I'm investing in some quality analog effects and a solution that I can use for everything.

Great points on the upkeep and cartage.  I don't plan on spending more than $100/year on my current tube needs, but if I had more traditional tube amps, that might get a little more 'spensive!



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by mikey1 on 2009-05-27 07:05:23

All of my tube amps have some sort of issue. I've never had all of them working at the same time. I'm not much of a sparky and I'm horrible at maintenance so it's little wonder. And theres no way I'd leave them on the truck so I'd have to haul them in and out of the house. And, my wife would insist I cart them downstairs as well. No fun for my back. So I'll stick with the Flextone. It gets the job done.

But, if I had people to cart, maintain and setup, I'd use several amps onstage. That would be sweet. I think I'd even enjoy watching the crew set my stuff up. I saw Ry Cooder with Little Village (great band) and he had 8 vintage amps onstage. A ton of guitars too. He sounded awesome and really different on everything.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by nuser101 on 2009-05-27 08:16:57

Well,

I just did a modelling A/B to my 1970 Twin Reverb with a Duncan Twin Tube in front of it, no effects except for the Twin Tube (to bring tube driven high gain to the party, which the Twin just won't do, although it does crunch extremely well) Twin onboard reverb. With or without the TwinTube engaged, the thing sings. The POD and GT series have a long, long way to go to approximate the dynamics of that combination

I wonder if the AXE can get close, or if I'm dreaming. I was thinking about a G-Major with a Triaxis direct to board, but I think tossing the power amp out of the equation would screw the sound, anyway. The other option is a Mark V 1x12 with a G-Major, but there goes my back again...



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2009-05-27 09:22:04

Tsk, tsk...you OLD people and your bad backs!

Two options for you:

1.  A nice folding cart that helps you wheel all your gear into place with little to no back strain.

2.  Wheeled cases.

Or both?

Oh, and there's always the eager musician wannabes that want to lend a hand tearing down.  Pick the non-inebriated ones.  Or just invite a couple of friends to help out in exchange for admission or a couple of brews.

Both the Axe and X3 are wonderful modelers, but they're not going to give anyone the dynamic interaction of a guitar and a nice tube amp in the sweet spot.  Still, they have their uses and if the real thing is impracticle, then they're perfectly acceptable alternatives.

BTW, the X3 Pro just sold.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by geeker on 2009-05-27 15:15:07

I can't seem to sell my M13. It's too much fun and sounds really good.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by markcockerill on 2009-06-03 06:53:16

Not wishing to miss an opportunity to get my stuff heard, I thought:

Which of the following two recordings did I create the guitar parts using Axe Fx Ultra or Line6 PodX3 Pro

Track A "Genie"   http://soundclick.com/share?songid=7627766

TrackB "Trains"   http://soundclick.com/share?songid=7026129

Iwill answer in a week or so.

Have fun but it should be fairly obvious.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by quoricsant on 2009-06-03 21:05:30

I bought a POD X3 Pro last december. At first I was like.. wow

Then, I was like.. ugh

Then, I was like.. POD what?

Now I am like, woow how good some of the stuff sounds through a good tubes pre or with this IR etc

(Same old process with any MFX)

It matters - what gear you have, but is +important how good you are in tweaking

I will still be buying an AxeFX ultra this year -like I was going to back in december-, but I'm in no hurry now

I'm tweaking the crap out of my POD and enyoing/learning every bit of it

If you dismiss the X3 too fast it means you are either not serious about tweaking, or biased towards your new gear (understandable of course )

Lots of pros DO use L6 among their gear, FYI



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Jeraxle on 2009-06-03 23:50:55

stumpsout wrote:

that, and the fact that they have firmware updates frequently. It didn't sound as good as it does now, too. Look how they worked with Radley,... within days of his feedback it was implemented!

Let's not forget a few very important facts when it comes to this statement.  First of all, Radley and Cliff were in a pretty big debate over a certain product.  Secondly, Radley is famous and having a celebrity endorsement always boosts sales.  And lastly, Radley knows more about how things work than most people.  So he can describe in a technical manner what he is looking for.  Most guitar players have a hard enough time figuring out how to play their guitars.

My point being, I wouldn't expect that sort of treatment if I bought any product.  I believe that was the exception, not the rule.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by nuser101 on 2009-06-04 06:29:34

My point being, I wouldn't expect that sort of treatment if I bought any product.  I believe that was the exception, not the rule.

I haven't purchased an FX, but I have strongly considered it. As part of my research into the product, I spent a lot of time on the AXE-FX user forum. IMO, Cliff provides the same kind of service to everyone who purchases an FX, and doesn't play favorites. He consistently responds to all user complaints on that board, either by provision of software updates, or by explaining to the OP that what he wants can be accomplished by proper use of the equipment.  His treatment of Radley was the rule, not the exception over there.

Still, I have no plans to purchase one. Modern amp technology is just getting too good, and the on-stage sound and feel can't be beat.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by edrod on 2009-06-04 12:53:27

I want one so bad



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by hippietim on 2009-06-06 14:31:57

@Karl_Houseknecht:

Which "real thing" would you buy?  There are very few things that the Axe-FX models that you could get for the cost of the Axe-FX.  The effects are Eventide quality and an Eclipse costs more than the Axe-FX.  You can barely get a high quality real amp, cabinet and decent palette of effects for the price of an Axe-FX.  And the Axe-FX has way more amp capabilities than the POD, near limitless cabinet options (since you can download your own), and studio quality effects.

There are so many things that the Axe-FX offers that just comparing to an amp or a POD is really narrowing the scope considerably.

BTW, I own an X3 and think it sounds pretty darn good - it's my backup rig though.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2009-06-06 15:37:06

Hippie, it's a great product.  I just don't need the diversity of options.  Too many options makes me dizzy.  I also don't want Eventide quality effects.  I want good analog stompbox effects for the most part.  Actually, I rarely use effects except for a touch of delay or chorus on my clean sounds.  I certainly could buy a real all-tube amp for the nearly $3100 an Axe rig would cost me:

Ultra: $2000

MIDI controller + expression pedal: $800

Rack + Power Conditioner: $300

Marshall JVM 410H half stack: $2800

A couple of good pedals: $300

But it really isn't money that's a factor.  I just don't really want to play a modeler live.  Recording is fine.  But there's no way in heck I'm going to spend $3000 on a recording rig.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by hippietim on 2009-06-07 12:04:00

Karl_Houseknecht wrote:

Hippie, it's a great product.  I just don't need the diversity of options.  Too many options makes me dizzy.  I also don't want Eventide quality effects.  I want good analog stompbox effects for the most part.  Actually, I rarely use effects except for a touch of delay or chorus on my clean sounds.  I certainly could buy a real all-tube amp for the nearly $3100 an Axe rig would cost me:

Ultra: $2000

MIDI controller + expression pedal: $800

Rack + Power Conditioner: $300

Marshall JVM 410H half stack: $2800

A couple of good pedals: $300

But it really isn't money that's a factor.  I just don't really want to play a modeler live.  Recording is fine.  But there's no way in heck I'm going to spend $3000 on a recording rig.

It's interesting that you are comparing the top of the line in modeling against the middle of the road for traditional gear. Also note that you can get a Standard Axe-FX for about $500 less and there is no reason you have to spend $800 on a foot controller - you could easily get by for around $200 or use your POD (xt/x3) Live if you have one (and it'd be a great backup rig as well.

As for recording, all you need is the Axe-FX itself which is half of your $3k.  If you need an expression pedal and/or foot controller it's obviously a bit more.

Karl - I was where you are.  I've been through nearly every modeler since the Rocktron Chameleon came out.  I've had all the PODs, Boss VG and GT stuff, V-Amp, a couple Vettas, SpiderValve, etc.  In fact, I'm even on my second Axe-FX.  I've had just about every kind of rig you could imagine from complex racks with several switchers to heads/combos w/pedals.

With the 7.x software on the Axe-FX it is "there" for me.  I run it into an FBT Verve 12ma full range speaker and the tone is just amazing.  It's got the "in the room" sound for me on stage and in rehearsal and sends a killer signal to FOH.  The rig that is now sidelined is a Bogner Fish preamp, Boogie 2:90 power amp, Eventide Eclipse, a handful of stomp boxes, and a killer Port City cab.  The Axe-FX rig is about 40-50lbs lighter and over $3000 cheaper.  Prior to the Bogner/Boogie rig I was using a Straub Cantus (single channel hotrodded plexi) with the PC cab and pedals.

I was very apprehensive about using the Axe-FX live direct and almost busted out the Bogner/Boogie rig at the last minute the first time out.  But I went for it and the results were fantastic.  Our sound guy is a guitarist that is a total tube and boutique pedal guy and he couldn't believe it - I got so many compliments on my sound and playing that night.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2009-06-07 15:20:50

hippietim wrote:

It's interesting that you are comparing the top of the line in modeling against the middle of the road for traditional gear.

Well, that's Marshall's flagship amp, isn't it?   12 voicings, 128 MIDI presets, all tube.  Look, I don't want an argument here because what I've learned over the years is you can't win one with an Axe-Fx enthusiast.  And I don't mean that in a derogatory way.  You've had a great experience with a great piece of gear and that's very cool.  I get it that it's a great modeler.  But that's what it is, a modeler.  And an expensive one at that.  You need great sound reinforcement, good monitoring, and a sound guy that understands direct applications to get a good live tone with a modeler.  Compare to a traditional mic'd amp and a couple of good pedals that are hard for sound guy to screw up.

I'm not saying the Axe isn't all that and a bag of chips, because it's really cool.  All I'm saying is that for the kind of money that I'd be compelled to spend on the Axe if I got one (because I'd go whole hog), I'd rather own a traditional all-tube rig.  Right now, I'm compromising on that, but the compromise is working really well.  And it's pretty hard for anyone out at the board to screw up.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by hippietim on 2009-06-07 15:50:36

Karl_Houseknecht wrote:

Well, that's Marshall's flagship amp, isn't it?   12 voicings, 128 MIDI presets, all tube. 

That still puts it at the mid point in terms of good tube gear.  It's got a lot of bells and whistles and the tone is decent but it ain't exactly the pinnacle of tube amps.  It is the V-Amp of tube gear

Karl_Houseknecht wrote:

Look, I don't want an argument here because what I've learned over the years is you can't win one with an Axe-Fx enthusiast.  And I don't mean that in a derogatory way.  You've had a great experience with a great piece of gear and that's very cool.  I get it that it's a great modeler.  But that's what it is, a modeler.  And an expensive one at that. 

It is part modeler.  It is also part high-end effects processor.  It is also an audio router.  Is it expensive?  Yes, particularly when you compare it to a POD or a GT-10.  But it is substantially cheaper than what it would take to get the same functionality from other gear.

As for an argument - I've similarly learned that you can't win with someone with fixed/rigid definitions of things.  Besides, so what if it's a modeler?  All of these things are tools - other than debates on Internet discussion forums, who cares how the tools are built?  That's an implementation detail that doesn't mean anything to me.  If it sounds good, it is good.

Karl_Houseknecht wrote:

You need great sound reinforcement, good monitoring, and a sound guy that understands direct applications to get a good live tone with a modeler.  Compare to a traditional mic'd amp and a couple of good pedals that are hard for sound guy to screw up.

My experience has been dramatically different than yours (and most folks I know as well).  Our sound guy doesn't have to do anything for me.  On the other hand, I've spent over 25 years wondering how sound guys can take my kick ass tube amp, a decent mic, a decent PA, and make it sound bad.  Sound guys have been fucking up mic'd amps for as long as I can remember.

Then there's the whole issue of stage volume.  In small clubs there is no way to get your suggested Marshall tube amp to hit the sweet spot and still get a good band mix - unless you like buzzy preamp distortion then there is no sweet spot to worry about.  My current rig sounds better in a mix than anything I've ever used.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2009-06-07 17:37:03

At any rate, I'm glad you're happy, because as I've said numerous times, the Axe is one cool unit.  I guess I'm just old school, despite having used modeling stuff for years.  I like the feel and sound of an amp behind me.  I also love the simplicity of pedals.  If that makes me a dinosaur, then so be it.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by donfrantz on 2009-06-07 17:45:58

U B 1 young dinosaur



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by phil_m on 2009-06-07 20:20:32

Axe-FX owners are sort of like the Jehova's Witnesses of the guitar audio world...  Hey, I'm glad it works for you, but I'm not converting. Knock on someone else's door.

Seriously, I guess I'm somewhat impressed with the sounds I hear it making, but I was also impressed with the sounds the POD 2.0 made when I first got it.  Being impressed is a relative thing, and it really is about what inspires you the most.  Frankly, the thing that I find most bothersome is the whole rack processor form factor.  I just can't feel imspired staring at rack.  I need knobs to spin for cryin' out loud!

Anyway, it's not a knock against the Axe-FX.  Heck, I only use about a tenth of the capability of my Line 6 stuff.  Having an Axe FX would mean I would probably only use about 1% of it.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by edrod on 2009-06-07 21:17:14

I am raising money to buy a new ampor unit.


I am debating between a Fractal ultra or the new Mark V



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Slingy on 2009-06-08 01:12:52

I'd like an Axe-FX, but everytime I have enough for one I buy a new guitar instead.

I find myself using only a few Pod models lately and different guitars for different sounds.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by TTonicMajor on 2009-06-08 10:04:58

Edited by Line6Miller

These types of religious experience threads really do nowhere.  There is no such thing as the "best" unit.  The best unit is the one that does what you want, at the price you can afford, at the level of complexity you are comfortable with and produces the results that work for you.

The AXE-FX is a boutique modeler (who would have ever thought we would get there!) and how good it is vs. what it costs is going to vary wildly.  If you are recording, it really becomes even more of a who cares as it is not a plugin.  There is such a swath of excellent plugins, why would you waste your time with a hardware unit?

For those that can, Tube amps rule this environment.

G.A.S is fun and it shakes things up.  But gear can't improve or hide your playing and if you can play it doesn't matter all that much what gear you use.  It's a matter of preference and comfort.

There is very little I cannot do with my Line 6 gear.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by TTonicMajor on 2009-06-08 10:19:26

Not to be rude but you don't need a $2,000 modeler to create those tones.   You could create those lead tones with ANY modeler out there.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by markcockerill on 2009-06-08 16:27:29

Not wishing to miss an opportunity to get my stuff heard, I thought:

Which of the following two recordings did I create the guitar parts using Axe Fx Ultra or Line6 PodX3 Pro

Track A "Genie"   http://soundclick.com/share?songid=7627766

TrackB "Trains"   http://soundclick.com/share?songid=7026129

Wellhere is the answer

They were both done with the:



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2009-06-08 16:33:46

markcockerill wrote:

Well here is the answer

They were both done with the:

Behringer V-amp?



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by markcockerill on 2009-06-09 02:23:57

Pod XT



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2009-06-09 04:53:06

I kinda figured.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by phil_m on 2009-06-09 05:12:35

I think that you bring up a good point about the Axe-FX being a hardware unit.  Personally, I would find it somewhat difficult to pay that much for what is essentially a computer.  Sure it has fast specs now, but in a few years it's hardware will be obsolete.  Now of course that doesn't mean it will all of a sudden sound bad, but I guess I'm surprised a smaller company like Fractal wouldn't go the route of the Stomp IO where the computing power was "outsourced" rather than depending a processor in a rack.  If you look at the Axe-FX forum, there are a few threads where guys mention setting up chains that cause the Axe-FX to max out the CPU already.

I'm not meaning to this to talk down the product at all.  It certainly is evident that they know their stuff.  I just wonder how long the era of selling hardware and software together will last.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by heretik11 on 2009-06-09 09:58:12

I agree with you on this one. Hardware will probably be out-of-date (I evaded the word obsolete) in a couple of years, but I have POD X3 pro and a guy from my "band" has an Axe FX and the difference is obvious. BUT! I gave 700 euros for my POD and he gave some 1400 euros so if you have money you can choose.

I'm still waiting to plug it in some good concert live system to hear what POD can really do.

Max out an Axe fx??? Now those chains must be really serious...



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2009-06-09 11:55:48

heretik11 wrote:

Max out an Axe fx??? Now those chains must be really serious...

Not really.  On a Standard, it apparently doesn't take as much as you'd think.  Especially if you're running two amp models and multiple delays.  Some of the delays are really processor intensive.

The X3 and Vetta might not have as powerful of a processor or as pristine of effects (but with modeled analog effects, it's not the point to be pristine) but they can still do two amps and two maxed out effects chains without blinking.  Again, might not sound quite as good.  But at least it can make sound.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by heretik11 on 2009-06-09 12:32:09

To be honest, I've played on it for about an hour or two so I cannot really judge about that... Next time I'll try and overload it.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by TTonicMajor on 2009-06-09 22:01:47

Ah, the list of ex-effects units is long and distinguished! 

Not having a software plug-in is not real studio friendly, re-amping can certainly be overdone but I find that tweaks can really help.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by kidgloves2 on 2009-06-26 20:27:15

The more I use the Axe-Fx, the better it gets. Does Line6 have any plans to make something with the same or more power?

Anyone...anyone....Bueller....Bueller?



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by mcmurray on 2009-06-29 20:29:34

I agree with the OP.  Line6 needs to get in the market and provide some healthy competition, the high end modelling market did not exist before the Axe-Fx.

btw here in Australia the POD X3 Live is $1000, and the Axe-Fx is $2000 including shipping.  The prices are not that far apart.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2009-06-30 05:53:55

mcmurray wrote:

Line6 needs to get in the market and provide some healthy competition, the high end modelling market did not exist before the Axe-Fx.

Who is the target market?  Axe-Fx users?  Fractal is only going to be able to sell so many units to the boutique modeler market.  If Line6 came up with a competitive offering, it'd be priced about the same because they wouldn't be able to sell enough units to justify mass production and lower manufacturing costs.  It wouldn't surprise me if Line6 just stayed out of that market altogether.  They're already far more profitable than Fractal will ever be and have no motivation to lose money on a boutique offering.

Line6's killing stroke here might be to come up with a modeler with slightly better algorithms than the X3 and focus on popularly requested features like flexible routing and improved construction quality.  Like a Vetta in a steel case that sounds better, but avoids the costs of building around what is essentially a PC based platform.  Maybe it costs $300 more than the current Live offering, but that's still almost half the cost of the Axe Standard.  Aim at the target market that they are losing customers from because of construction quality issues.

If they were to do that, I'd bet folks would be choosing Line6 more often over Fractal.  Fractal would still sell units because it's a great product, but the choice wouldn't be quite so easy anymore.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by phil_m on 2009-06-30 06:07:11

Yeah, that's kind of my thought, too.  I just don't see a whole lot of demand in the general market for high-end modelers.  I think the guitarist who has $2000 to spend on something is much more likely to by a $2000 amp than a modeler.  Of course the people on the Axe-FX boards are very excited about the Axe-FX - they've bought and use it already.  I just don't think Line 6 needs to worry about Fractal as their competition just yet.  They need to worry about the mass marketers like Boss, Digitech, and Vox - the people they are competing for floor space with at Guitar Center.

It's not saying that the Axe-FX can't do some great things - I'm sure it can.  I will say that after looking at through the manual, it's a more complicated piece of equipment than 95% of guitarists would ever want to deal with.  I've met many people who consider things like the Digitech RP50 much too complicated.  If it involved more than turning knobs, a lot of people just won't put the time and effort into figuring it out.  In some ways, I think the current version of the POD has gotten away from the simplicity that originally helped the PODs take off.  I remember when I got my POD 2.0, I was blown away that there was a digital device that had knobs that acted like an analog piece of equipment.

In a way it's sort of sad, because it's usually not the groundbreaking technology itself that sells a product and makes a company successful.  It's whoever can package that technology in an inexpensive and accessible package.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2009-06-30 07:16:46

phil_m wrote:

I remember when I got my POD 2.0, I was blown away that there was a digital device that had knobs that acted like an analog piece of equipment.

I think that's what attacted me to the Spider Valve, and more recently back to an amp and pedals setup.  Physical knobs and a more analog interface feel.  No menus to go through.  Less time tweaking and more time playing.  That is definitely one area that the Axe needs to improve.  The interface is a deep tweaker's delight, but it leaves a lot to be desired if you're on stage and need to edit something quickly.  The X3 is better in that respect because of the knobs and direct access to effects, but both companies need to revisit the user interface drawing board and come up with something that works better for a performing musician.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by LoonyBin-Fizzbin on 2009-06-30 07:29:08

"but both companies need to revisit the user interface drawing board and come up with something that works better for a performing musician"

Like a matrix console for Knobs? Lets say 100 knobs, (10x10) all with user defined color codes & more importantly with memory/scene parameters!  Not a footswitch, but something to tweak with, LIVE, so a small panel that can be mounted to a stand???  



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by mcmurray on 2009-06-30 07:47:56

The target market is the line6 fans and guitarists in general that are interested in next generation technology, and are willing to pay a little extra for it.

I have no doubt that line6 could market a similar product and get away with charging a lot less due to mass production.  It would sell.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2009-06-30 07:53:57

I hate to say it, but they tried going the "flagship" route with the Vetta, and look where that got them.  You'll see nothing better than the X3 from Line6 for a long time to come because that's what sells for them.  I'm not saying it's good, I'm just saying it sells.  I hope they do come out with something great and I get to eat my words, but I'm not counting on it.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by phil_m on 2009-06-30 08:01:57

Well, I don't doubt that Line 6 could come up with a product that could directly compete with the Axe-FX, but the question is whether they feel it's worth their while to invest in the R&D and other upfront costs to do so.  It becomes a question of how quickly they can recover their original investment costs.  I honestly think that's the reason they have been riding the XT/Vetta platform for so long.  Modeling all the amps and cabs they did would certainly be a big investment in equipment and time, and they are trying to squeeze every last penny out of their original investment.  I think one thing to take into consideration is that Line 6 actually modeled vintage amps and effects, so actually securing those items represents a pretty big cost.  I think the Axe-FX approached the modeling on a more generic basis of replicating the circuits used in this equipment.

I just don't think the overall market for the higher end modeling devices is all that big.  I imagine if you look at the ratio of the beans and floor-based PODs sold compared to the Vettas and POD Pros, it would be something higher than 10:1, if not more like 25:1 or something.  I'm not saying that people don't want the "next big thing".  I just don't know if the "next big thing" will be something like the Axe-FX.  I imagine it will be in the POD form factor with modeling improvements.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Kazak9 on 2009-07-01 17:40:33

Here is a list of the amps I have sold since I bought an Ultra.

Road King  II

Diezel VH4s

VHT Sig:X

Bogner Ecstacy 101b

Lonestar Classic

Triaxis/2:90

Engl SE E670

Soldano SLO

After a couple months of A/B/C/D (voodoo labs amp switcher) testing the Ultra against these very fine amps, all of which are superb in their own rite, I concluded that I no longer needed to imitate any of them. With a little patience all of them can be imitated, but why bother? The Ultra can make any sound I need for both live and studio use.

I did keep a couple of MkIVs for sentimental reasons and to have something for visitors/friends to play through, but I rarely turn them on for myself.

The most important thing to me is to be able to get the sound I want to use live, in a practice environment. I average 25 hrs. a week practicing and 2-5 hrs a week giging.

Having the identical sounds in the live and practice environment is worth its weight in gold IMHO.

I use my trusty X3 as a foot-switch for the Ultra as it allows me to switch my modded Variax 700 at the same time.

I think any comparison between the Ultra and an X3 is like a Ferrari and a VW. As far as L6 making a competing product I hope they do, and think they might, as evidenced by the Variax thinking. I love my Variax 700s and I an anxiously awaiting the new versions, they are apparently going to be built by a high end guitar company. I am still trying to figure out how to get the Variax electronics into my JP BFR.

I have made about ten presets for the Ultra and spend almost no time tweaking, it's so satisfying to play through. Not messing with all those amps has given me far more time to become a much better guitar player in the last year, not to mention the money back in the bank and a ton of space in the studio.

The configuration of the X3 Pro is a joy to behold, and if they would put a decent processor and algorithms in it, it would be a contender. I think its a great shame L6 missed out on this round.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2009-07-01 19:36:33

Kazak9 wrote:

Here is a list of the amps I have sold since I bought an Ultra.

Road King  II

Diezel VH4s

VHT Sig:X

Bogner Ecstacy 101b

Lonestar Classic

Triaxis/2:90

Engl SE E670

Soldano SLO.

No wonder you could afford an Ultra.  There are at least three amps on there that I'd give my right nut for because I simply don't have the cash.  Sig:X, Ecstacy, SLO....nice!



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by kidgloves2 on 2009-07-01 22:00:58

[quote]By Kazak9:

"I have made about ten presets for the Ultra and spend almost no time tweaking, it's so satisfying to play through."[/quote]

I haven't made any presets from scratch yet, just modifying existing presets. Any way you would share yours?



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Slingy on 2009-07-02 12:49:25

Variax into a JP BFR? Sacrilege! Oh well it's your money.

On a side note, I hear JP loves his Axe-FX.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by HeavyChevy on 2009-07-06 12:55:50

(please excuse the lack of quotes here.. seems I am too stupid)

OMG !!!

Karl - have I not been preaching this for years ?  Modeling.  Great for studio - not so hot for live use ?  Feel ?  Sound ?  Simplicity ?  Surely you know that you can only get one sound out of a real tube amp and guitar !!!  Feel ??? !!!

And F2K is now getting great sounds with a mike in front of a tube amp.

Pardon the interruption, but I have not been here for awhile.  Seems that I have had the same mysterious hard drive failure that others have recently experienced !!!

Nurser - glad you like the Duncan Twin Tube !!!  In my experience, that pedal is easy and the niftyist way to make a POD sound decent.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by wardick on 2009-07-06 15:05:58

Good to see you back HeavyChevy.  The Axe-Fx certainly isn't for everyone.  I'm going to have my Standard up for sale in a few days.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2009-07-06 15:15:27

wardick wrote:

The Axe-Fx certainly isn't for everyone.  I'm going to have my Standard up for sale in a few days.

Does that mean it wasn't for you?  Maybe I missed something in the back posts.

@Chevy:  Yep, you can say "I told you so".  Great for recording.  Not so great for live in some situations.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by wardick on 2009-07-06 15:50:51

No Karl you missed nothing.  Don't even think I posted in this thread since back on page one.

You know it gets really annoying that you dial in a great sound then couple weeks later new firmware comes out.  Not even for bug fixes, but new improved stuff.  Then you dial in again, then more improvements etc.  You should see the changelog and improvements over the last year.  I'm tired of updating firmware and getting new stuff for free.  Besides all that I'll have an Axe-Fx Ultra here in the next couple hours or less.

Seriously some of the above was tongue in cheek.   Product support has been phenomenal and will no doubt continue.  When I got the Standard a year ago or less I knew nothing of Fractal and the product was at 5.x firmware and for me it was awesome.  Now its at 7.x firmware and is more awesome.  So yeah the Standard model is not for me and I decided to get the Ultra.  I wanted the Ultra back then since it had some options I wanted that aren't offered in Standard, but with no history of the product or company and the fact it was even more money at the time I went with the Standard.   I wasn't drinking the cool aid or anything back then either and even thought how can this thing be any better than what Line 6 has going since every other thing I tried during a transitional phase was not any better?  I went in total skeptic such as I did when I test drove a Prius couple years ago.  I fully expected to return the Axe-Fx for refund as well as not buy a Prius.  No regrets on either of those products since the products themselves proved their value/worth.  My only regrets are the 7 or so months I spent with the X3L as I should I have gone Fractal sooner and ditched the old Pontiac about 4 years sooner.

Charlie



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by nuser101 on 2009-07-06 17:03:01

HeavyChevy wrote:

Nuser - glad you like the Duncan Twin Tube !!!  In my experience, that pedal is easy and the niftyist way to make a POD sound decent.

It's very hard to get a bad tone out of that pedal.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2009-07-07 03:52:29

Well, that's great to hear, Charlie.  It's a great sounding product and I have to agree with you about the customer support and development.  But I'd still have to say it's not for me.  Not right now, anyway.   I don't even own an amp modeler anymore.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by dana_akbari on 2009-07-08 02:32:53

Sorry to say this but anyone using an X3 or Axe-FX to do a pro recording is a rookie. So is anyone who uses these live straight through the PA system.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2009-07-08 04:37:23

dana_akbari wrote:

Sorry to say this but anyone using an X3 or Axe-FX to do a pro recording is a rookie. So is anyone who uses these live straight through the PA system.

What???  Peter Thorn is a rookie?   I guess somebody better tell him.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by fester2000 on 2009-07-08 04:41:40

Karl_Houseknecht wrote:

dana_akbari wrote:

Sorry to say this but anyone using an X3 or Axe-FX to do a pro recording is a rookie. So is anyone who uses these live straight through the PA system.

What???  Peter Thorn is a rookie?   I guess somebody better tell him.

I guess you should add Jeff Beck to the list of "rookies" -- http://www.musicplayer.com/article/jeff-beck-plays/mar-05/4050

Cheers,

Fester2k



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2009-07-08 05:25:49

Karl_Houseknecht wrote:

I don't even own an amp modeler anymore.

Hmmmm...not exactly true anymore.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by wardick on 2009-07-08 08:06:15

Karl_Houseknecht wrote:

Karl_Houseknecht wrote:

I don't even own an amp modeler anymore.

Hmmmm...not exactly true anymore.

So what did you buy since yesterday?

All documented rookies to date:

http://www.fractalaudio.com/artist.html

http://www.line6.com/artists/list/



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by dana_akbari on 2009-07-08 08:36:07

No, Jeff Beck and others won't use POD for professional recording or live use and I quote Jeff Beck:

"I used a Line 6 POD on the demos"

So yeah, I'm still on my word, anyone using X3 or Axe-FX for professional recordings or live is a rookie.

All these so called 'endorsed artist'...yeah they do use these product, but for recording demos, home recordings and NOT pro-recording or live.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by thirdnostril on 2009-07-08 08:42:39

Garbage has recorded more than one album with PODs.

So have hundreds of others, many that you don't know about, because they put an amp in front of the POD on stage because they're caught up in the same "you gotta have this or you're not a pro" garbage that you seem to be.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by spaceatl on 2009-07-08 08:53:40

2K and they didn't even make you a sandwich?

That's ok....Looney is still waiting for his Line 6 sandwich....In fact, Line 6 hasn't made anyone any sandwiches....and as far as I can tell. neither has Axe-FX....

Looks like someone just leveled the playing field...



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by fester2000 on 2009-07-08 08:57:43

spaceatl wrote:

...Looks like someone just leveled the playing field...

I'd rather have a blamestorming session.  I blame Karl...

Cheers,

Fester2k



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by spaceatl on 2009-07-08 09:01:31

Great idea!

I also would like to blame Karl. However, I think it would be prudent to blame Looney for revealing the lack of sandwiches...



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by fester2000 on 2009-07-08 09:15:19

dana_akbari wrote:

No, Jeff Beck and others won't use POD for professional recording or live use and I quote Jeff Beck:

"I used a Line 6 POD on the demos"

So yeah, I'm still on my word, anyone using X3 or Axe-FX for professional recordings or live is a rookie.

All these so called 'endorsed artist'...yeah they do use these product, but for recording demos, home recordings and NOT pro-recording or live.

Let's revisit the entire quote, shall we?

"I used a Line 6 POD on the demos. Some of that saw its way through to the final thing, because the sound of it was good and I thought, “I ain’t going to do that solo again!” But it was a mixture of a Marshall JCM2000 DSL head with one 4x12 cab and a Line 6 2x12 combo."

Seriously dude, what is wrong with you?  No on on the planet can have idea what people do or don't do on their records unless they're physically there, and obviously you haven't been physically present on every pro recording session.  So you're trying to argue something that you can't possibly support in the first place.  But by ignoring actual data like Jeff Beck saying "some of it saw its way through to the final thing" you come off sounding like a pathetic loser with an obviously flawed agenda.

Speaking of your agenda, why do you even care?  Why is the possibility that pros are using Pods or other modelers threatening?

So stand on your word all you like -- you'll forgive us if we stand somewhere else, yes?

Cheers,

Fester2k



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by spaceatl on 2009-07-08 09:19:16

Sorry to get philisophical, but I think a lot of human beings have an "Instict of Absolution"....The sad truth is, "Preconceived Notions" and "Absolutions" really only work in one's own mind....In a lot of ways, self limiting....



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by LoonyBin-Fizzbin on 2009-07-08 09:27:56

spaceatl wrote:

Great idea!

I also would like to blame Karl. However, I think it would be prudent to blame Looney for revealing the lack of sandwiches...

Sandwiches?

Whats up?

We don´t need "S******" sandwiches (Although they are my favorite meal excluding file Mignon of course)

But seriously! "Sandwiches", I never mentioned those!  Did I?



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by DarkZenGuitar on 2009-07-08 09:49:02

Those who say don't know.

Those who know don't say.

Tell you what-when you record an album, send us some posts and we'll judge for ourselves how 'pro' your sound is.

Then you can explain how long it took to get that sound, all the mics and cabs you used and how much it cost in studio time.

This kind of arguement is the same as those who feel that if it ain't a Les Paul through a Marshall, it must be crap.

It kills me that people who can't dial in a good sound blame the unit. A poor craftsman blames his tools. Just because some people can't get a good sound live doesn't mean the unit is not excellent for live use.  It's a tool. If you feel the need to cast negative comments, at least make sure you have a clue as to what you're talking about.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Septemfluous on 2009-07-08 10:12:51

You know, I have another perspective on all of this.  I'm somewhat of a photography enthusiast as well as a musician.  I used to do professional photography and work in a photo lab for many years.  I remember the first digital cameras to hit the scene.  People said, "digital will never be as good as film" and "digital will never replace film."  Now look.  Digital, for the most part, has replaced film.  In order for you to do a full, high quality, two page, magazine layout, you needed medium format film (35mm is too small) or 14 MP of digital picture.  I just bought the new Canon XTi.  It has 15.1 MP and the cost was comparable to what I used to pay for 35mm film cameras.  Sure digital is still a little more "contrasty" and not as forgiving as film... but it is, absolutely, the way things are going.  So it goes with amp modeling.

I was disappointed to learn that the X3, almost exclusively, relied on better hardware for it's improvements (updated ADAC's, stronger processor, more routing flexibility, etc...).  I was hoping that the X3 would have pre amp and power amp controls (much like the Axe-Fx).  However, I think the X4 or, maybe, the X5 will have those controls... maybe because the Axe-Fx took the lead  It always takes somebody to do things differently for others to catch on... it's the nature of free markets and competition.  The X3 could be leaps and bounds better than it is and still cost a fraction of what the Axe-Fx goes for.  However, the more market the Axe-Fx gets, the bigger their profit margin becomes.  When that happens, the cheaper they can offer their product.  The cheaper their product, the more market they'll get and so on and so forth.  Right now, the Axe-Fx is not in the same market as the X3 because of the huge price difference.  In the future, that my change.

In the next 10 to 20 years, I think you'll find that modeling will get better and better, exponentially, with each successive generation.  Eventually, I think, modielling will far surpass physical amps.  You will just be able to do things far beyond what the physical realm allows.  Right now, the X3 does a fine job for guitar.  That being said, in 10-20 years, we'll think of the X3 as a cool sounding toy (like we think of the original POD) and the new X5 or X6 will be blowing our minds.

Maybe by then, L6 will have decent compressors... though they'll probably make the units out of Chinese cardboard.  lol.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by spaceatl on 2009-07-08 11:00:42

It was a few years ago, but I remember the sandwich thread...I think that one lasted a few pages also...It was on the old POD forum as I remember...Just following the example of my captain trying to diffuse these discussions with a little humor...



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by fester2000 on 2009-07-08 11:05:17

spaceatl wrote:

It was a few years ago, but I remember the sandwich thread...I think that one lasted a few pages also...It was on the old POD forum as I remember...Just following the example of my captain trying to diffuse these discussions with a little humor...

Space --

I'm afraid I have to amend my prior blamestorming session.  I now absolve Karl, and blame you for the confusion you've caused poor loony. 

FWIW, I do vaguely recall the sandwich thread.

Cheers,

Fester2k



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by LoonyBin-Fizzbin on 2009-07-08 11:05:47

LOL!

Ok!

I do remember that!

Everyone loves different stuff on their bread!

I love, Olives, mortadella, tomatoes, Hot Dijon, sauerkraut, (yum)

but if you don´t like my sandwich? (this will make me very happy!!! )  don´t eat it! LOL

But as a true scout, I am always willing on trying different things too! Beware & watch out for your bread!!!  LOL



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2009-07-08 11:10:39

fester2000 wrote:


I'm afraid I have to amend my prior blamestorming session.  I now absolve Karl, and blame you for the confusion you've caused poor loony. 

Well, it's good to know I've gotten absolution for whatever crime it was that I committed on page 6.

And to answer Loony's question:  I'm not telling right now because the jury is still out, although I think the verdict should come back by tonight.  And Fester and Space shouldn't let it slip because I think they have insider info on that matter.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by spaceatl on 2009-07-08 11:22:46

Spoken like a true "Professional"...I so love the sandwich analogy...



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Slingy on 2009-07-08 11:27:23

And the reason you are posting on a Line6 product forum is because you own which Line6 product? I hate when these trolls drop by and screw up a perfectly good thread.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by spaceatl on 2009-07-08 11:29:48

mortadella

Made Dead With Loving Care?



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by LoonyBin-Fizzbin on 2009-07-08 11:31:02

The Latin in you is going to be my downfall!  



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by fester2000 on 2009-07-08 11:31:37

Karl_Houseknecht wrote:

fester2000 wrote:


I'm afraid I have to amend my prior blamestorming session.  I now absolve Karl, and blame you for the confusion you've caused poor loony. 

Well, it's good to know I've gotten absolution for whatever crime it was that I committed on page 6.

And to answer Loony's question:  I'm not telling right now because the jury is still out, although I think the verdict should come back by tonight.  And Fester and Space shouldn't let it slip because I think they have insider info on that matter.

Ok, so now I'm, like, totally confused.  You don't want Space or me to tell *you* about the gear that *you* bought b/c you "think" we have insider info?

What kind of a game are you playing, mister?

Cheers,

Fester2k



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my
by LoonyBin-Fizzbin on 2009-07-08 11:36:42

LOL

It´s good to be among friends!

because I can say "I don´t get it" and wont be shot!!  LOL

I don´t need any explanations!  LOL



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by dana_akbari on 2009-07-08 11:38:33

Septemfluous wrote:

You know, I have another perspective on all of this.  I'm somewhat of a photography enthusiast as well as a musician.  I used to do professional photography and work in a photo lab for many years.  I remember the first digital cameras to hit the scene.  People said, "digital will never be as good as film" and "digital will never replace film."  Now look.  Digital, for the most part, has replaced film.  In order for you to do a full, high quality, two page, magazine layout, you needed medium format film (35mm is too small) or 14 MP of digital picture.  I just bought the new Canon XTi.  It has 15.1 MP and the cost was comparable to what I used to pay for 35mm film cameras.  Sure digital is still a little more "contrasty" and not as forgiving as film... but it is, absolutely, the way things are going.  So it goes with amp modeling.

I was disappointed to learn that the X3, almost exclusively, relied on better hardware for it's improvements (updated ADAC's, stronger processor, more routing flexibility, etc...).  I was hoping that the X3 would have pre amp and power amp controls (much like the Axe-Fx).  However, I think the X4 or, maybe, the X5 will have those controls... maybe because the Axe-Fx took the lead  It always takes somebody to do things differently for others to catch on... it's the nature of free markets and competition.  The X3 could be leaps and bounds better than it is and still cost a fraction of what the Axe-Fx goes for.  However, the more market the Axe-Fx gets, the bigger their profit margin becomes.  When that happens, the cheaper they can offer their product.  The cheaper their product, the more market they'll get and so on and so forth.  Right now, the Axe-Fx is not in the same market as the X3 because of the huge price difference.  In the future, that my change.

In the next 10 to 20 years, I think you'll find that modeling will get better and better, exponentially, with each successive generation.  Eventually, I think, modielling will far surpass physical amps.  You will just be able to do things far beyond what the physical realm allows.  Right now, the X3 does a fine job for guitar.  That being said, in 10-20 years, we'll think of the X3 as a cool sounding toy (like we think of the original POD) and the new X5 or X6 will be blowing our minds.

Maybe by then, L6 will have decent compressors... though they'll probably make the units out of Chinese cardboard.  lol.

The question isn't whether amp modelling will replace real amps or not eventually. I agree with you that these modelling units are getting better and better every year as the technology improves. I remember I had a BOSS GT-5 back in 2004, and comparing the sound of it to the X3 just shows how the modelling technology has improved. However, modelling has yet to convince me to use it instead of a real amp. Sure, it is easier to record, costs a fraction of a real tube amp, but the dynamic response, tone and feel of these modelling units don't compete with real valve amps right now. All these rookies using these models to record, as they call it 'professionally', most definitely haven't heard a cranked valve amp miced by a Royer 121.

Tell me, if you had an arsenal of vintage and Class A amps, would you use X3 or the amps themselves for a pro recording?



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by LoonyBin-Fizzbin on 2009-07-08 11:45:04

Great response! (I really think this)

But you have insulted a few folks here! (Can´t deny it!) don´t you feel like you should at least have an apology or something? Come on & be part of our "Gang" We hold no grudges!



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by phil_m on 2009-07-08 11:46:59

What exactly qualifies as a "pro recording" nowadays?  Seriously.

I actually think that in the right hands very good results can come from a number of different modelers, and it even to the point where a lot of guitarists wouldn't be able to tell the difference.  Of course any given modeler can be made to sound not so good, but the same can be said for a $2,000 amp.

I sometimes think that most electric guitarists are inherently narcissists.  In reality they care a lot more about their tone then anyone in the audience does.  The sad fact is if you play a riff correctly, many times the audience won't care if your if your tone is close to good at all.  I'm not saying it isn't worth caring about, because if you feel your tone is good it will inspire you to play more.  And I also like hearing good recorded guitar tones.  It's just that today getting a passable or even a good tone is something that is more attainable to the average guitarist more than anytime before.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by fester2000 on 2009-07-08 11:49:18

LoonyBin-Fizzbin wrote:

Great response! (I really think this)

But you have insulted a few folks here! (Can´t deny it!) don´t you feel like you should at least have an apology or something? Come on & be part of our "Gang" We hold no grudges!

I was going to make a similar comment.  I think most of us here welcome a good debate.  You like tube amps?  Cool!  So do I!  But I don't have any need to disparage anyone anyone for how they get their sound.

Frankly, I don't even need an apology.

Cheers,

Fester2k



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2009-07-08 11:52:41

dana_akbari wrote:

`

Tell me, if you had an arsenal of vintage and Class A amps, would you use X3 or the amps themselves for a pro recording?

If I had to choose, I'd probably choose the modeler for recording.  Nobody's going to be able to tell the difference, and in the studio, time is money.  Takes far less time to get a great recorded sound from a modeler than mic'ing up an amp properly.  And if the tone isn't right, there's always re-amping it later if you need to.

Live play is a totally different story.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2009-07-08 11:54:28

fester2000 wrote:

Ok, so now I'm, like, totally confused.  You don't want Space or me to tell *you* about the gear that *you* bought b/c you "think" we have insider info?

I'm not good with words.

I was answering Loony and telling him that I don't want to answer that question yet.  And that you guys shouldn't answer yet for me because I KNOW you have insider info.

Is that better?



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by LoonyBin-Fizzbin on 2009-07-08 11:55:29

Like Penthouse VS the real thing! Shure looks good on paper



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by fester2000 on 2009-07-08 11:55:51

Karl_Houseknecht wrote:

fester2000 wrote:

Ok, so now I'm, like, totally confused.  You don't want Space or me to tell *you* about the gear that *you* bought b/c you "think" we have insider info?

I'm not good with words.

I was answering Loony and telling him that I don't want to answer that question yet.  And that you guys shouldn't answer yet for me because I KNOW you have insider info.

Is that better?

Yeah, I was just being a j-hole, sorry -- sometimes it just comes out. 

Cheers,

Fester2k



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Slingy on 2009-07-08 11:56:04

No one has said that a modeller is better than a real amp and mic situation, at least not in this thread. I don't think anyone is claiming to be a pro here either. I don't appreciate the rookie comments, obviously we use our modellers to get ideas down, and if we were to cut a record, we'd go to a studio like everyone else.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by LoonyBin-Fizzbin on 2009-07-08 12:04:51

"claiming"  is a harsh word!



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by spaceatl on 2009-07-08 12:13:36

Just let me know if I need to get the air freshener out again or if I can put it away...



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2009-07-08 12:19:41

LoonyBin-Fizzbin wrote:

Like Penthouse VS the real thing! Shure looks good on paper

I'm more of a Sennheiser guy than Shure, but that works too sometimes.

Yep, the idea that a real tube amp is necessary for dynamic content purposes when a finally mastered piece of music contains less tha 3dB of dynamic range is kinda funny.  In that compressed mix, you can't tell a real amp from a modeled one.  And that's been proved with tests time and time again.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by spaceatl on 2009-07-08 12:33:40

That harkens of the old tube vs SS debate from the 80s....Remember the even vs odd harmonics...I alwys wondered how my SS stereo could render all those even harmonics...Because anything that was printed in a Guitar Player Magazine review was true...



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by thirdnostril on 2009-07-08 13:07:57

People who quote model numbers are usually substituting memorization for talent.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by dana_akbari on 2009-07-08 13:24:15

Karl_Houseknecht wrote:

dana_akbari wrote:

`

Tell me, if you had an arsenal of vintage and Class A amps, would you use X3 or the amps themselves for a pro recording?

If I had to choose, I'd probably choose the modeler for recording.  Nobody's going to be able to tell the difference, and in the studio, time is money.  Takes far less time to get a great recorded sound from a modeler than mic'ing up an amp properly.  And if the tone isn't right, there's always re-amping it later if you need to.

Live play is a totally different story.

Nobody's going to be able to tell the difference? Or maybe its just you, and a few rookies like yourself? All the clean tones in X3 sound absolutely nothing like the real amps. I mean you probably shouldn't talk about a guitar's tone again if you can't differentiate between them cause everyone I know can. Some, mainly distorted amp models in X3 like 'Line 6 Modern High Gain' model can at times sound like the real deal, but only in a mix; solo, they still show that lack of 'character'.

Yeah it takes time to get the right tone in the studio, but tone costs money and time (most of the time). But when you get there, you care about the tone, not time, not money.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by phil_m on 2009-07-08 13:33:49

What exactly are your qualifications that you feel have earned you the right to call pretty much everyone here a "rookie"?  Put up or shut up, as they say...

You are certainly entitled to you own opinion, but it will do well not to denigrate others while stating it.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by spaceatl on 2009-07-08 13:49:57

I suggest you read this and gain a little perspective.

http://mixonline.com/recording/tracking/music-todd-rundgren/

Thisis less about Line 6 than the it is about the means to an end...With the end being an album...That's a very personal thing and some of us have been doing this a while and have already been through and preached what you are preaching now...I think all guitarists enter a "Robbie Robinson" phase and turn into complete a$$holes...Whether they get out of that or not is hard to say...

I don't agree with your tact or your opinion...nuff said...

May you find and obtain what you deserve...Also, may you have a very deep wallet so you can buy those boutique amplifiers and ribbon mics that you like...



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by fester2000 on 2009-07-08 13:56:08

phil_m wrote:

What exactly are your qualifications that you feel have earned you the right to call pretty much everyone here a "rookie"?  Put up or shut up, as they say...

You are certainly entitled to you own opinion, but it will do well not to denigrate others while stating it.

+1. I'm trying to give this guy the benefit of the doubt, but he sure makes it difficult.  I'm quickly coming to the conclusion that he's a pretender.  If he were actually somebody special on the guitar, it's hard to imaging he'd feel the need to try to insult others. What he may be is an excellent player that no one's ever heard of, and his frustration over his lack of full on startdome may lead him to try to put others down in a misguided attempt to make himself feel better.

Frankly, I'm not insulted (I don't give a flying f*** what this guy thinks about me or my gear) -- it's just too weird that he gets some validation from calling others "rookies," especially when those alleged "rookies" include indisputable pros like: Jeff Beck (recorded), 311 (live), Meshuggah (live), blah blah blah.  These are the guys he's insulting, when they clearly aren't rookies.

Cheers,

Fester2k



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by spaceatl on 2009-07-08 14:05:30

Hey bros,

You guys might enjoy that interview I found with Todd Rundgren...I hope the dude reads it...Perhaps he doesn't know who Todd Rundgren is...Todd has recorded guitar just about every way that there is...



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by dana_akbari on 2009-07-08 14:47:38

phil_m wrote:

What exactly are your qualifications that you feel have earned you the right to call pretty much everyone here a "rookie"?  Put up or shut up, as they say...

You are certainly entitled to you own opinion, but it will do well not to denigrate others while stating it.

Everyone here a rookie? You maybe, but I said everyone who uses X3 live/pro-recording is a rookie.

Probably most people here don't really do professional recordings anyway. Record a 16-bit demo and put it on myspace...

''I think all guitarists enter a "Robbie Robinson" phase and turn into complete a$$holes''

I think you are talking about Robbie Robertson. I'm not really aware or care about people's personality.

''Also, may you have a very deep wallet so you can buy those boutique amplifiers and ribbon mics that you like''

Worked my ass off for every penny. Don't have that many amps, let alone boutique ones. Got a couple of good sounding ones (a Marshall '62 Bluesbreaker which is modded and a Fender '73 Twin Reverb) both of which I received as presents, one from a guitarist I knew who passed away and the other one my dad's friend gave to me. In terms of mics, I do own a lot of microphones but that is normal as producing music is slowly becoming my main job and interest.

Interesting read though, although I'd never heard of Todd Rundgren and he might be a good guitarist, I'm not impressed with the album's tone (I only heard one track from 'Arena'), which was expected as he had used MIDI tracks for drums and Line 6 modelling straight through the laptop.

I repeat again, don't get fooled by the term 'endorsed artist' and think these guys use modelling in their live performances and the recordings that actually go on the final album. They don't.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2009-07-08 14:49:41

dana_akbari wrote:

Nobody's going to be able to tell the difference? Or maybe its just you, and a few rookies like yourself?

Counting to 10 and taking deep breaths....

Yes, me, the rookie, won't be able to tell the difference.  And neither can all of those rookie listeners out there that potentially might buy your CD, or download your mp3, or whatever you kids do these days.

The golden ear crowd, which is a pretty small bunch of folks and apparently includes you, might also be able to tell.  But you must rate yourself up there with some extremely talented AEs.  And by your comment below, I can tell you haven't spent minute one in a real studio.  In a mix, you're going to be able to count on fingers and toes how many people in the United States are going to be able to tell the difference.

Yeah it takes time to get the right tone in the studio, but tone costs money and time (most of the time). But when you get there, you care about the tone, not time, not money.

Try telling that to your label.  Listen to recordings and try to mentally solo out the guitar tone.  Hear some pretty awful stuff in there don't you?  Rookie?  Your label cares doodly squat about your tone because they know your audience doesn't.  They care about those two important things:  time and money.

I've got no more time for you because you're obviously about 15 years old and trying to impress people.  Look around.  Nobody here is impressed.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2009-07-08 14:52:58

dana_akbari wrote:

I'd never heard of Todd Rundgren ...

Exactly as I thought.  Tell the truth now, are you a day older than 15?  I'll post a picture of me eating my shorts if you're legally able to vote.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by mikey1 on 2009-07-08 16:26:34

Someone gave you a '62 bluesbreaker and a 73 twin? See, you went overboard with two amps. I might have believed one. But you took it too far. The dead guy was a nice touch, but I think you're full of crap. I'd like to hear some of your super bitchin tone. Or anything you've done. And by the way, are'nt you the guy that claimed to be in some band and we busted you lying? I might be wrong but I seem to remember your name.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Kazak9 on 2009-07-08 18:04:43

Anyone here familiar with Marco Sfogli? He is one of my favorite players at the moment and has a wonderful album out "There's Hope". Instrumental guitar based prog rock.

Check him out on youtube: YouTube - Marco Sfogli - Andromeda

The reason I bring this up is a post on his forum, quite relevant to this discussion...

Guitar cab impulse - Marco Sfogli Forum

in which he talks about some of the equipment he used to record his album.

Interesting for us "rookies" anyway.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by spaceatl on 2009-07-08 18:51:27

Thanks for the spell check...There are a few of us that try to keep a cool positive vibe here. Obviously you want no part of that and there seems to be nothing that you can learn here that you do not already know...bye bye...

Now back to the Blamestorm...

I would like to blame Looney...



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by iamamonkey on 2009-07-09 03:46:34

I dont normally comment on petty arguments like this, but i feel i have to say something, so here goes...warts and all...

if you are that convinced about real amps, wtf are you doing here anyway?

to my "rookie" ears, and probably by your definition of "rookie", which includes almost everybody who listens to music, modellers sound great and close enough to the real deal anyway to make any sort of difference when recorded and mixed in a song. I agree that in a live situation, the real stuff is different, but on a CD, nope. no diff at all.

What Line6 and other amp modellers are doing is to make "amps" more accessible to "rookies" like us and to encourage "rookies" like us to explore more about amps and tone, without having to shell out loads of dosh. I also have to say that i've learnt more about tone and guitar amps and cabs and micing posabilities using modellers than i could have if I have to invest in real amps. My dream is to own my own real rig at some point, but i am not a "pro" guitarist and I dont have a "pro" recording studio and I dont have "pro" mics and such, so modellers make sense to me and other "rookies" here.

is it because an real amp is "louder" compared to a modelled amp that you think a real amp is better? Fret not though, it is a normal conclusion for us humans, i.e. louder = better. Question is what kind of speakers are you using to listen to your amp modeller? Soundblaster standard desktop speakers? (I also assume you own a line6 product or similar, if not than back to my first question, wtf are you doing here?) the weakest link using a modelled amp are your speakers. no question. If you are using standard desktop/laptop speakers that came with you pc/mac/laptop, then please invest in some proper monitoring speakers. There are loads on the market and you do not have to shell out loads of money for them (mine are basic sub £100 M-audio Studiophile AV40s, which though not the best, it is good enough for what I do)

Anyway, to me, a "rookie" and others here, amp modellers sound close enough to the real deal to not make any difference. That is why we use Line6 products or similar amp modelling products. To me, amp modelling is the future for 2 reasons, it is affordable, and it is fun. and so long as it is fun, people will continue to use it.

Tone finding is the bane of all guitarists. Trying to find the nirvana of tone takes an eternity. But the questions is what difference does it make to the "rookie" listeners (again your definition of rookie is everyone else bar your good self). What do people (by people i mean non musos) say when they buy your CD / listen to your song? Will they go "wow, what tone is that? this tone is beautiful? he has achieved the nirvana tone. he is the god of tone!" or do they go "great song. I like the guitar riff". I will go with the later. Why? because nobody gives two F&*!s about your guitar tone. So long as it sits well in the mix and the WHOLE song sounds great, then it works. You can have the best tone in the world using the best amp in the world, mixed by the best engineer in the world, played by the best guitarist in the world, recorded in the best studio in the world, but if your playing and riffs suck, then im sorry to say, your song sucks.

Take AC/DC for example. Their tone is not nirvana (if you think that me mentioning nirvana is in refernece to the band fronted by the late Kurt Cobain then please go back into the hole from whence you once came from). Malcolm Young even uses amp modellers on a few tracks in their Black Ice Album. Can I hear the difference between a modelled amp and a real amp whilst listening to the album? No. And i bet, none of us "rookies" here or non muso "rookies" can tell the difference. What grips me about AC/DC is their guitar riffs. Period. Why did Malcolm Young use a modeller when he has access to the best gear money can buy? I dont know. He must have thought that it was good enough for what he wants. And if it is good enough for Malcolm Young and other Pro guitarists to actually use in their recording, then it is good enough for me and other "rookies" here.

I've said my peace....

if i have offended anyone, im sorry



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Septemfluous on 2009-07-09 06:01:45

Yes, but bannannas are softer and sweeter than a Toyota.  You need to reread my post with some effort put towards understanding it.  If my discussion is entirely too intellectually high-brow for you, let me know.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Septemfluous on 2009-07-09 06:04:26

Troll.  You're just trying to argue anything you can, insult as many along the way, and stroke your ego while you're at it.  If you have something intelligent to say, fine.  if not, just go away... you're not nearly as intelligent and entertaining as you like to think you are.  Also, you've lost a lot of respect from a lot of people on this board.

You don't know who you're discussing this with.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Septemfluous on 2009-07-09 06:38:33

Hey, I get paid to play, I own my own recording studio, I get paid to engineer, I get paid to master, etc... That, I think, qualifies me as a pro... semi-pro at the very least.  If I want to lay down ideas, I go to my very own studio.

The only thing I'd disagree with is where to use modelers vs. real amps.  From doing a lot of mastering I've learned that the more dynamic range I have going into the mastering job, the better it will sound when I squash the snot out of it.  Live, I have never played in a club that was acoustically treated to sound right with 100 drunks in it.  If you use something that even sounds somewhat close, you're doing fine.  You may think that tube amp sounds great up on stage, but after a slobbering soundman puts his abused SM57 haphazardly in front of your speaker and mixes your amp to sound like a cardboard box full of bumble-bees... well, you get the picture.

In the studio (ideally, a room and monitoring system treated to sound as natural and flat as possible), everything is under a microscope.  You can really hear the difference between a real tube amp and a modeler.  If I had my "druthers," I'd rather have a whole bevy of tube amps, high-end microphones, top-of-the-line guitars, and (the important part) really good players.  There's a number of problems with all of that...

1.  Space - I'd need a warehouse to store all that stuff

2.  Cost - Not only do all those amps cost a lot, but maintaining them can get pretty pricey too.

3.  Stupidity - I can't tell you how many people think that Theory of a Dead Man, Pearl Jam, Nickleback, Pink Floyd, etc... recorded their albums live.  I spend more time trying to get people to adjust their amps in uncomfortable ways just to get the end result they're looking for.  Then, I have to convince them to play the part the same way more than once.  Like pullin' hair, I tell ya.

4.  Fickleness - Once I start recording and it's exactly what the guitar-player wants, he comes back the next day.  The next day, he has a completely different concept of how the sound should be.  If it's close, I can just EQ the recorded sound and be done.  Typically, it isn't close so we have to start from scratch.  Keep in mind that I will usually get blamed for not recording things right when the guitarist changes his mind.  Usually, this means that you have to try to get a Marshall sound of ouf a Mesa Boogie amp or something similar.

5.  The end result - People don't realize that the tone you want for your instrument on it's own is going to be very different from the tone you want in a mix.  In a mix, you're going to want to lose a lot of low end.  You're going to have to do a little dance routine with the EQ in the mids to avoid stepping on the voice too.

In the end, recording with modeling is so much easier and more flexible.  Also, once you've stacked 4 - 12 different guitar tracks.  There isn't that much difference in sound.  One track of tube amp vs. one track of modeler and there really is no comparison... the tube amp sounds better almost every time.

All of this is moot.  My argument wasn't about tube amps vs. modelers and which is better.  My point was that as software, hardware, and sampling techniques improve, so do modelers.  I think we will find a time, in our lifetimes, when modelers meet and even, in some ways, exceed the amps they model.  Right now, they're good and they fulfill a vital role.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by nuser101 on 2009-07-09 08:19:55
Live, I have never played in a club that was acoustically treated to sound right with 100 drunks in it.  If you use something that even sounds somewhat close, you're doing fine.  You may think that tube amp sounds great up on stage, but after a slobbering soundman puts his abused SM57 haphazardly in front of your speaker and mixes your amp to sound like a cardboard box full of bumble-bees... well, you get the picture.

I've said exactly this on this forum before - a lot of us are in business to entertain audiences that have been mood enhanced by a variety of amber colored beverages and self prepared paper rolled calmatives. I don't think anyone in their right mind could fundamentally disagree with you on this.

However, I understand those that want the amp on-stage. In addition to playing for an audience, they're playing for themselves, and they want that live "feel", no matter what happens FOH. Personally, I don't do it, because the stage volume issues go away when everybody is straight to board, but I understand it.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by spaceatl on 2009-07-09 10:20:07

In my experience, the 100 drunks in the room makes for great acoustic treatment...Rooms always deaden out from people because human bodies make for great sound absorption...especially in the winter...But take it from me 100 drunk naked ladies actually sounds better than when they are clothed...At least I do tend to play better in that situation...And if you turn them upside down, they all look like sisters.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Septemfluous on 2009-07-09 12:08:30

Now that's funny.  I don't care who you are.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by geeker on 2009-07-09 12:28:27

dana_akbari wrote:

phil_m wrote:

What exactly are your qualifications that you feel have earned you the right to call pretty much everyone here a "rookie"?  Put up or shut up, as they say...

You are certainly entitled to you own opinion, but it will do well not to denigrate others while stating it.

Everyone here a rookie? You maybe, but I said everyone who uses X3 live/pro-recording is a rookie.

Probably most people here don't really do professional recordings anyway. Record a 16-bit demo and put it on myspace...

wow....I've played almost all over Europe and in the United States using my X3 Live. No one said one bad thing about my tone. I guess I'm a rookie............



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by LoonyBin-Fizzbin on 2009-07-09 12:31:21

I love Todd Rundgren, even if I always misspell his name!  LOL

How about Steve Hackett?

I love "Narnia"  off of "Please Dont Touch"

Try to play it!  LOL

Hint!!!!  It´s in a different tunning! And it screws me up everytime! LOL

E |--------------0-----------|--------------------------|
B |-----------0-----0--------|-----------0-----------0--|
G#|--------7-----------7-----|-----0-----------0--------|
E |-----9-----------------9--|--------5-----------5-----|
B |--0-----------------------|--------------0-----------|
E |--------------------------|--0-----------------------|



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by mikey1 on 2009-07-10 05:40:53

I'm replying to myself because I'm starting to change my mind about my above statement. I'm now sandwiched between two Mesa amps and the contrast is starting to bug me. They have butter and I'm stuck with margarine. They sound bigger. At least on clean tones. I'm whipping mine out this weekend.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by John_BlisterTip on 2009-07-14 15:10:15

I didnt read the thread but I know where these things go

A lot of what I have heard from the Axe was good but it doesnt match the comments. It should be Jesus Christ in amp form. Now, you will never hear that kind of praise for a Pod--in fact most of us spend our time talking about how Line6 should make it better. How its cabs cause buzzy freq mismatches. But for some reason, perhaps to fulfill some need to expain why they could not get good sounds from the Pod when others could, they project fanboy motives when its obvious that we are the critics of Pod and They are the fanboys

Hence, they are here...and we are not there.

However, lets try this.....

How about someone with the AxeFx post up 5 sound clips of Jesus in amp form.

Then I will post up the Pod and see if there is this utterly magnificant difference that cannot be denied.

You are going to find, and I know this before the contest begins, who is actually full of crap. It will reveal that the former Pod users are the ones who could not make the Pod sound as good as it can be.

Now, thats an important point thats actually in favor of the Axefx--even though it exposes weaker ear skills. If Axefx is easier to get good tones then it has to be very valuable to the average guitarist. IMO opinion if it is easier for the majority --it is better. I dont know that to be true yet but it might be. Understand though that this doesnt mean there is no comparison between the best of Pod to the Axe. So if you want to read into my comments some evil bias thats not based on logic your not gonna have any place to argue that. I have long said that the default starting sounds on the Pod are not good. If they were better people would find an easier path to a good sound.. And this is not saying that the original designers didnt know what they doing--but I think they made a mistake when they coupled their amp models with mostly generic cabinets that are nowhere near as good as an impulse shot from the real head...

The other thing is the editing you can do on the Axe is awesome. So in this way it would also be better. If Line6 opened up their code for tweaking I think a lot of us would be happy. But the comments of Axe are borderline crazy. The boasting is just chilish and the "Pod sucks" parties must feed some pathetic psychological need.

Ok, so since Im not the one claiming the Pod is the "hand down winner, "no comparison", "not even close" "Messiah of amp modelers"--in fact Im not even claiming its better--Im saying these comments are ludicrous. There IS a comparison. I believe it is incumbent of the Axefx user to post up these 5 clips and I will match the best I can--of course there has to be a conterpart of the sound on Pod. It doesnt have to be the same amp but it should at least be a similiar sound.

So since this is about modeling it should be

No real cabinet

No external effects

Only 1 amp model

No post effects except a small room

All blocks must be revealed(I wanna know if Im to match a distortion pedal too)

Impulse must be revealed so I know what Im dealing with.

They must be YOUR clips.

At the end I will post up 5 clips that the Axe must beat --of course there must be "no comparison"

A word of warning..this is not gonna happen. Your gonna come in here and Im gonna make you eat your words.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by DarkZenGuitar on 2009-07-14 19:35:17

I would love to hear this!

I think an even better test would be to have five songs, with full band and hear what's what.  People get on modellers because of fizz and the like, but mostly all those discussions are about solo guitar tones.  Let's hear POD vs. AXE vs. tube amp in a mix and then we can really tell if one or the other is significantly better.

BTW, is this you Dana?

http://haidory87.hi5.com/friend/p22506760--Dana--html

Theinternet is awesome.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2009-07-14 21:07:29

DarkZenGuitar wrote:

Let's hear POD vs. AXE vs. tube amp in a mix and then we can really tell if one or the other is significantly better.

I think we know the answer to that one already.  Nobody here will tell the difference.

I'd actually like to hear John tweak the POD and the Axe in personally, with him playing both.  There are very few people on this board that can wring sounds out of a POD the way John does.  I do not doubt that he could post something up that will sound great solo.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Slingy on 2009-07-15 00:10:02

Haha John but I don't think anyone is gonna go for that challenge, and why should they, if they like their gear fine. I like my UX2 alot, it mics my amp, does modelling for guitar bass and vocal, reamps via vst, supplies phantome power, records vocals, mics my acoustic guitars, has no latency etc etc etc. I havn't seen a box anywhere that can do all that. Personally I'd rather argue about which guitars are best.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by nuser101 on 2009-07-15 05:45:06

Actually, there's no way the challenge can work, because, no matter what, it's not double blinded. The only way I can think of to do this would be to identify a supposed "golden tone" recording, and have each author submit his work at replicating it. Then what's needed is distribution to a panel that doesn't know the source of either tone. Posting clips to someone who already knows the outcome (that's essentially what JBT is saying in his original post, and he's already gotten support) won't prove anything. It will convince those who are already convinced on either side. The actual result of this experiment, which probably won't occur, is two factions screaming "You see, I was right about the <AXE-FX, POD X3L> all along.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by phil_m on 2009-07-15 06:14:34

Double blind studies and judging panels?  That's about as anti-rock 'n' roll as you can get!

Please understand, I'm not meaning this to denigrate your post in anyway (I actually agree with it).  I just think that these discussions quickly devolve into missing the forest for the tree type things.

If a piece of equipment inspires you to play and make great music, who cares if some panel of bedroom rockstars think your tone it the "best" (whatever that means).  Yeah, it's certainly worthwhile to understand some basics and how to make a tone that records well and all that, but it seems that we quickly meet the point of diminishing returns.

This past year I've had to rediscover how to play live with more limited equipment choices because of the environment and style of the group I'm playing with most often now, and in many ways it's actually taught me to focus more on my actual playing a lot more.  Yes, I still use effects, but I'm using a one channel amp most of the time, and I have a smaller selection of core tones I work with.  It's actually been a lot of fun.

I think in a lot of ways having too many choices available to you can be a bad thing.  It's like a type of paralysis sets in, and you start thinking, "well maybe I could make this sound a little better if I switched to this amp model or tweaked this..."  Some of that is OK, but it can get to the point where it's overwhelming.  That's really why I have no desire to even look at something like the Axe-FX.  I don't want to mess with virtual circuitry inside virtual amp models.  I don't necessarily even want the temptation there.  More power to those who do.  It's just that great musicians are rarely the people who design great equipment.  They're focused on the playing.

OK - enough of my rambling...



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Kazak9 on 2009-07-15 06:53:38

Interesting challenge, but I believe the only way it could actually work is re-amping. If everyone had the same starting files and re-amped all guitar tracks on exactly the same material, you might get some kind of legitimate comparison.

I have been playing for a very long time, I went to see Jimi play at the Isle of Wight in the 60's, and have been chasing the "tone" for more than 40 years. I use whatever works from what is at hand, and will try anything and everything.

Out of all the modelers I have (XTL, X3L, GSP 1101, VG-99, GNX4, Guitar Rig 3, Axe-Fx Ultra) and a Mk IV, I find it's easiest and quickest and most satisfying to play the Ultra, both live and in the studio.

But, what my idea of the perfect "tone" is will be very different from everyone else's. I have been studying John Petrucci's "Suspended Animation" CD for the last couple of years, and while I can play most of it, and cop his tone pretty well, it doesn't mean I am as good as he is. He wrote the material, which I cannot do. I also know quite a few good guitar players who don't particularly like his playing or think he is anything special (Sacrilege in my opinion).

I have heard plenty of great material recorded with L6 gear, hell, I have a bunch of my own stuff I really like done with the XTL. IMHO 95% of tone is in the fingers, I have a guitar teacher who is younger than my youngest child, and while he can not afford to buy a decent amp or the kind of equipment I have accumulated over the years, he blows me away every time I hear him play, through a peavey amp of all things.

"Good Lord, what would we all do or even think about if we found the ultimate tone!" said the blind man, waiving his wooden leg aloft.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by iamamonkey on 2009-07-15 07:02:41

Kazak9.

I wholeheartedly agree with you.......

-monkey-



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by nuser101 on 2009-07-15 07:37:00

phil_m wrote:

Double blind studies and judging panels?  That's about as anti-rock 'n' roll as you can get!

Actually, is it any more anti-rock'n roll than saying one tone is better than another? Chuck Berry plays straight to a non-overdriven Twin (one cable, one amp, moderate volume). His tone is clean as a whistle nowadays. Yet people still insist on copying the crunch of Johnny B Goode, which Berry himself says is due to the fact he couldn't afford a decent amp at the time.

I also don't disagree with your post - it was a pretty good ramble, IMO.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by spaceatl on 2009-07-15 07:39:06

->"Messiah of amp modelers"



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Kazak9 on 2009-07-15 10:01:03

While I am a huge fan of the Axe-Fx, it is far from perfect for my purposes. I really would like a completely different configuration, more like the X3 Pro. As powerful as it is the Axe-Fx IMO should have a firewire port and be able to send at least 3 independent stereo tracks to your DAW, 2 stereo amp chains and a clean unaltered stereo track, so that you could easily re-amp anything you record after the fact. While it's not impossible to do this with the Axe-Fx it is not simple or easy.

Correct me if I am wrong but it looks to me like the X3 Pro is set up to do this, with the USB port. I would buy one but most of the sounds on the L6 X3 Pro page sound like crap to me, and I am not sure USB can handle enough bi-directional communication.

However, I understand Fractal is working on a plug-in version of the Axe which is a good thing as I think this will get a lot closer to what I would like, and will also (because of the price) get a lot more people to be able to try it and see up close and personal what all the hubub is about.

Don't get me wrong, I am not just knocking L6, I am also a huge fan of the Variax tech. IMHO it is absolutely the best thing since sliced bread, being able to record any number of hi-gain tracks without adding any noise, is worth it weight in gold to me, and I really do like my 700 as a player guitar.

I don't mean to be rude about the elderly (I am getting there myself) but does anyone really give a FF about how Mr. Berry sounds now or then? I do sometimes go back and listen to some older music and am amazed at what garbage sounds people like Jimi H, and Eric C, and a lot of the so called great players used a lot of the time. I mean go listen to some of that stuff with a critical ear to the tone and tell me thats the tone you really want to play with. That stuff was great because they wrote it and were able to elicit emotion from us with their fingers, not because their tone was so great.

A great player can easily get wonderful sounds from inferior equipment, but a mediocre player struggles to get a decent sound from the best gear. IMHO the best use of time is to focus on the fingers and learning how to play first, then dick around with the gear.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by spaceatl on 2009-07-15 10:06:28

As far as a plug in amp modeler, I really like the UAD Nigel...I am not sure if Nigel is fast enough for real time, but it sure works great in post for my own madness...



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by nuser101 on 2009-07-15 10:14:40

Kazak9 wrote:


I don't mean to be rude about the elderly (I am getting there myself) but does anyone really give a FF about how Mr. Berry sounds now or then? I do sometimes go back and listen to some older music and am amazed at what garbage sounds people like Jimi H, and Eric C, and a lot of the so called great players used a lot of the time. I mean go listen to some of that stuff with a critical ear to the tone and tell me thats the tone you really want to play with. That stuff was great because they wrote it and were able to elicit emotion from us with their fingers, not because their tone was so great.

A great player can easily get wonderful sounds from inferior equipment, but a mediocre player struggles to get a decent sound from the best gear. IMHO the best use of time is to focus on the fingers and learning how to play first, then **** around with the gear.

That's the point - nobody gives an FF about he sounds now or then. He's just good. Similarly, very few people give a FF about whether or not somebody uses a Digitech, Zoom, Line6, Boss or Fractal gear. I used to limit that statement to bars, but I think it applies in any venue. The only idiots that are going to insult the way the guitar sounds are envious two bit guitarists who a jealous of stage pros.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2009-07-15 16:18:38

John_BlisterTip wrote:

It will reveal that the former Pod users are the ones who could not make the Pod sound as good as it can be.

John,

You know, I got to thinking about this statement and it reminds me of the day I demo'ed and bought my HD100.

I was in the store, playing through the head into the matching cab and making sure I could get the tones I needed out of it.  Was sounding pretty good.  A guy comes over and says, "Wow!  That sounds great!  I've never been able to make that amp sound that good."   He then volunteered that he'd given up on the POD and SV in favor of an Axe-Fx.  And I'm thinking to myself...I wonder how he gets a good tone on a complex unit like the Axe?

So your theory may hold some water.  Here's a guy that can't dial in a POD or a drop dead simple amp to sound good but goes off to the Axe.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Rabid on 2009-07-17 19:07:22

I remember when I bought a new Yamaha DX-7. It was great. It was the hottest keyboard out. It was touch sensative. The DX-7 always stayed in tune. The great players were all rushing to get one and I knew it would make me sound better. I bought it and sold my MemoryMoog.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by redviper on 2009-07-19 17:48:26

as a 13 year old kid, I couldn't afford crap.  I had a hand-me-down electric strat copy and no amp.  backstage plus was my first amp but couldn't afford any stomp boxes.  I finally saved up and bought a chorus/delay pedal.  I was in heaven.  I slowly moved up with a better guitar ($400 ibanez) and a 2 speaker Crate.  I thought I was the sh$t.  One thing was always going to be true, I would never have enough money to buy the gear that the big boys had and they had the sound I loved so much, that inspired me.  out of reach.

I got an XTL and a variax for a combined $700.  I have all the guitars and amps and stomps that the big boys use (well, close enough anyway).  You just can't do that with anything other than L6 gear.  At least IMHO.

I gotta say, if I had 10k in expendable $$$, I'd like to have an axe but if I had 2k to blow, I'd upgrade my guitar.

My point.  L6 is great gear at a great price and as long as that remains their philosophy, I'm loyal.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by cgtrox on 2009-07-19 18:46:36

Actually, both manufacturers will always have a niche in the market. The Line6 following is a smart, frugal, semi-pro (some pros, too) to beginner tech head type. The Axe FX will have close to the same as the boutique amp market with a few rich kids who have $10K to flush down the toilet.

cgtrox   



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by TTonicMajor on 2009-07-20 21:50:08

Tip: there are more albums sold with Line 6 models on them than AXE-FX will ever dream of creating.

Audio clips of various devices prove only one thing: what your capabilities are (B rate player playing thru an A rate rig will still sound B rate).  A talented player can create an excellent work with any tool, it breaks down to what works for them.  Geeks want knobs, players want simplicity and some may be in search of a specific effect or model.

Each platform has its nuance but that doesn't make it better, just different.

I agree with the comment that if I had extra cash that a guitar upgrade would come 1st and I would completely agree.  Expanding the guitar arsenal would net you far more than moving from  Line 6 to an AXE-FX.

Honestly, I have a hard time seeing a fit for the AXE-FX. 

   Live a Tube amp smokes it.

   In the studio, plugins smoke it.

There is never going to be a one device fits all for players but with a software plugin, this device is going to remain quite boutique as it is quite limited.

Not sure how far folks have gone with plugins but if you haven't mix and matched between vendors, you are missing out - literally the sky is the limit.  What has me scratching my head is that you can have a live rig with any mix and match of software plugins making the most flexible rig possible that can be built into a hardened rig.

Why in the world would you want a limited and completely locked down hardware solution?  If ultimate tone is the quest, you are behind the day you take receipt of this box as you are stuck with what that box does.

Just thinking outloud!!!



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by John_BlisterTip on 2009-07-24 23:41:51

Yeah re-amping could be a good way to narrow things down to a shadow of a doubt

BUT..I am not one bit surprised that, all of the sudden, no one is willing to present the Messiah for comparison. To be honest, I was sitting here with my brother when I wrote that post and I had milk coming out of my nose when I typed in such brash comments at the end there. But the fact is that people talk a lot but when it comes to putting up or shutting up they almost always shut up.

I know what I can do--I have heard about a hundred Axe clips--and I Know I can make this Pod compete very favorably. But I also recognized that if Axe is easier to get to a good sound then that is a big selling point. Like I said--I wish Line6 would open up their code to more complex editors. The pod can be like a minefield of bad frequency mismatches which leaves so many combinations that can sound bad. Im guessing no such minefield exists in Axe and thats why people have an easier time---they can use implulses, mess with the internals of the amp ect--so they would be at a huge advantage in putting up the 5 clips I mentioned. But Im still game if it helps.

Its not like I was asking this to be judged like a contest. All I wanted to do with teach the big mouths. They dont need a crowd of judges--they'll know themselves. Of course this doesnt apply to most Axe users--just these guys who make the absurd statements. A normal person wouldnt need to be shown that there actually IS a comparison between these 2 modelers.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Rabid on 2009-07-29 19:32:35

"Not sure how far folks have gone with plugins but if you haven't mix and matched between vendors, you are missing out - literally the sky is the limit.  What has me scratching my head is that you can have a live rig with any mix and match of software plugins making the most flexible rig possible that can be built into a hardened rig."

That is how I feel about hardware and why I think the M13 is better for me than the Axe-Fx. I don't want one brand. I want my Line 6 effects mixed with effects from FullTone, Electro-Harmonix, Keeley, Moog, Boss, TC Electronics, VooDoo Labs, MXR, Paul Cochrane and more. I imagine that a lot of long time musicians have more than that invested in their hardware effects than the $2000 it takes to buy Axe-Fx. I cannot imagine giving it up for a single rack unit from one company.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by spaceatl on 2009-07-29 20:36:16

Yea, I have thought about a plugzilla or a Muse Receptor...Those are very cool boxes...



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Rainald on 2009-08-09 01:43:56

Well I never had a chance to hear an Fractal Audio Axe FX .... sure would love to. One thing about this discussion and most discussions on this forum: It is all about hearing abillity. We all talk aout the same products but we all hear something different depending on how good our ears are  and based on the fact how good and long we did train them. If we did the same discussions in two years again even most people would hear different from what they hear right now. That makes discussions like these hard. We like to believe we talk about the same..... but we don`t!!!!!

I have a Pod X3 Pro and two Spider Valve for live which are feed by my Pod X3 Pro. I like my gear and it does the job good. But be honest does it exactly sound like I would run a JCM 800 a Mesa Rectifier a Peavy 5150 in real? Let`s be serious not really. It is a nice thought I buy a piece of gear for 400-600 bucks and it is worth like to high expensive stuff. I don`t look like that at my X3. I try to get good sounds out of it that sound good to me. To me othat is what the X3 can do best. But if I really love the sound of a JCM 800 for example I be better of tp play a JCM 800 for real.  The people that claim the hear no difference will most likely tell a different story once the spent more time on doing music. The so calles regular audience might not tell a difference ifthey a/b the amps. But in a band situation the will spot that here is a difference not knowing what it is. But again if I want a good tone and be really flexible solution for recording and live situations with lots of different patches the X3 is a damm good choice.

Excuse my english I`m german.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2009-08-09 04:33:48

Rainald,

I bet you speak better English than I speak German...despite my name.   You have nothing to apologize for.  Great points, all.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Kazak9 on 2009-08-09 06:19:08

Rainald. all very good points. If you want to get to see an Axe, I would suggest you post over on the Fractal Forum to see if there is anyone close to you (I am assuming you are in Germany) as I understand there are quite a lot of Axe users in Germany.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Kazak9 on 2009-08-09 06:24:46

Hey Mr. John_BlisterTip, are you ever going to post those five clips you were boasting about? I would love to hear them.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Slingy on 2009-08-09 09:13:24

John's clips are always sounding very pro. But he has yet to reveal which guitar he uses on them, which to me is a very important factor. Since different guitars produce wildy different sounds regardless of the modelling.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Rainald on 2009-08-09 10:16:24

THX Karl.

It would be nice to demo a Fractial Audio since so much was said about it. But to be honest I don`t have 2.000 bucks for just a preamp. And we all know this kind of musican desease........ if you hear something that you like a lot you must have it. So sometimes it might be a wise decision to only demo stuff you can afford ..........

About the guitar from John Blister Tip. Don`t forget his fingers. He most likely "simply" just spent quite some time playing guitar and practising and that is why he sounds good. Give him other gear and he will sound good again. So don`t pay too much attention to his guitar. It might propably a better choice to pay more attention to the music he does if you like his clips and learn from that. It is the playing and not so much the gear that makes a good musician.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2009-08-09 11:16:02

Rainald wrote:

It is the playing and not so much the gear that makes a good musician.

Boy, isn't that the truth?  I've had the opporunity to play with one of the guys that played guitar for the Statler Brothers.  Actually, will be playing with him again next week.  This guy uses an old, beat up Deluxe, a Tube Screamer, and an old Tele.  And he is one of the best players in the Blues/Rock genre that I've heard.  Does he have an Axe FX?  Nope.  Actually, he does have a GT-8 that he uses for effects only.  But still, his main tone is the Deluxe.  How much simpler can a rig be?  But he knows how to make it sound great, and his playing is top notch.  He is a testament to your statement above.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Slingy on 2009-08-09 22:48:33

I do agree, but even so a Tele into a Fender amp with a TS is such a distinctive sound you just couldn't get anywhere close on any other guitar except for other Tele clones. Enter Variax into the equation and I think you have the ultimate set of modelling tools.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Matt_J71 on 2009-08-16 06:35:43

I have noticed some clips on YouTube of the Axe-Fx where guys are running it through a solid state power amp and then into a regular guitar cabinet. This seems to work well and give them good results.

With the PODX3 people always say you should run it through a full range system like a PA. I understand the reason - use the POD with speaker models turned on and through a PA - but shouldn't turning the cab sims off give you a good result through a normal guitar amp setup? I know the cabinet will color the sound, but that isn't a bad thing if you have the cab sims turned off.

The Spider seems to sound good through a real speaker setup - so why don't the PODX3 amp models sound good through guitar speakers? Were the spider models tweaked to work with real cabinets?



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by snedlow on 2009-08-31 18:50:40

I can't even afford the Pod X3. Musician's Friend was blowing out the $699 list Tone Direct USB interface with Gold Bundle plug-in for $99 so I bought it and like all virtual amp sims the tails don't sound right (the tail end of a long sustained heavily distorted sound doesn't die out naturally but crackles a bit as it dies out). Amplitube, Guitar Rig and Line 6 sims all exhibit this problem as opposed to a real amplifier. I can't afford to even think about trying the Axe-F/X. If I fell in love with it and kept it I'd be eating macaroni for the next two years. I love what I can do with my Line 6 though, especially since I'm heavily into programming devastatingly distorted sounds that can knock teeth out. Enjoy your Axe F/X!



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Maforddoc on 2009-09-01 05:39:04

I've been reading and posting on the Gear Page about the Axe-Fx for a while now.  A couple of points made by others on this thread, I've echoed on other threads.  First, it seems that the Axe-Fx might be better suited for tone-junkies and tweak-nerds than those of us who just want to play and who feel that guitar time is better spent playing and getting better.  Even Line 6 users have to be careful when sitting down for a couple of hours to play/practice that they don't just spend the entire time dialing in and fine-tuning tones.  I'm guilty of this myself.  I can't imagine what I'd do if I had the infinite possibilities of the Axe-Fx Ultra.

Second, as I've read on other forums (GearPage, Fractal, etc), not everyone is happy with the Axe-Fx.  They get it, play through it, and conclude, "This thing isn't that great."  Then they come to the forums and get other users' opinions and experiences, who say that the problem is the equipment that they're playing the Axe-Fx through.  Only until they fork over the extra $$$ for the correct rig to play the Axe-Fx through do they get the pristine tones they're after, whether it be an FRFR system or some other rack monster.  So, it's not just a $2000 piece of gear.  To tap its potential, it could end up being a $4-5K+ piece of gear.

For the value, I'm staying with Line 6.  Until I become a much better player, I can't justify the expense and the hours of time learning a new, complicated piece of gear.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2009-09-01 06:01:50

Maforddoc wrote:

Second, as I've read on other forums (GearPage, Fractal, etc), not everyone is happy with the Axe-Fx.  They get it, play through it, and conclude, "This thing isn't that great."

Where did you find these reviews?  It's not that I don't believe you, it's just that I've been looking for what the other side is saying (as there surely must be folks that don't like it) and not finding that.  ESPECIALLY not on the Fractal boards.  But I want to hear from those that were less than happy with the unit so I can get the complete picture.  Can you point to some of those negative reviews?



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Kazak9 on 2009-09-01 06:27:58

Hey guys, I was doing an experiment for some folks over on the HC lighting forum and thought it might be relevant here. Direct recording from the Ultra.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxg388WZXAg

StandardMk IV preset with delay.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Maforddoc on 2009-09-01 07:33:27

Look on The Gear Page.  I've read so much in the last few weeks, I'm not sure of specific threads.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by TTonicMajor on 2009-09-08 20:22:59

I am yet to hear a recording of an AXE-FX or any other gear that makes you say ... Wow!  I could only do that with that specific piece of hardware.

There certainly are no impressive posts here.

If you are a completely hopeless tweaker that must have the very latest to play with, one would think that the claustrophobic confines of a fixed hardware box would be almost unthinkable.  The endless tweaking possibilities of a software solution like POD Farm, Amplitube, Guitar Rig ... with professional effects plug-ins of your choosing offers far more possibilities.  Impulses - cooooooolll!!!!!!!!!!

The bottom line is that if one cannot make solid tones with the Line 6 gear, your hardware is the least of your worries. 

Now go work those chops!!!



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by cgtrox on 2009-09-08 21:18:29

Nice studio rig bro!

So, it's a Line 6 Variax thru an Axe FX?? Nice....

cgtrox



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by jessecryderman on 2009-09-09 10:20:34

Fractal Audio makes gear for professionals, that's why.

Line6 Makes gear for people who want to ape the sound of the pros for pocket change.

Despite the Line 6 marketing savvy, there's a reason pros don't use the x3Live  on stage...its flimsy and it breaks down!

A rackmount Pod Pro?  Sure.   Just don't expect any of their floorboards to take a licking and keep on ticking.

In fact my 6-month old PodX3 Live broke down on me twice at crticial gigs (one opening for Train, one playing at a $100k wedding).

Therefore, I will never use a Pod product for live performance again in my life.

There's a reason why pro gear has a high price tag....because reliability ain't cheap!

(oh...and I am aware of the  ONE pro guitar player who flaunts his use of the X3 Live atm, and I hardly doubt his touring habits match what most of us would consider "regular rock use")



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Kazak9 on 2009-09-09 12:44:39

Hey thanks cgtrox, I do love my little studio.

I am a great believer in the Variax tech, I think it's the greatest thing since... You will notice I have a GK3 on the Variax 700 and sometimes use the VG-99 along with the Axe, its a huge sound.

Until I got the Axe Ultra I was all old school tubes only. I always had eight to ten tube amps in the studio and rotated them regularly, now I only have a couple of Mk IVs and they don't see a lot of action.

I do have an X3 Live but only use it as a pedalboard for the Axe as it switches the Variax as well as the Axe.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by TTonicMajor on 2009-09-10 21:03:57

jessecryderman wrote:

Fractal Audio makes gear for professionals, that's why.

Line6 Makes gear for people who want to ape the sound of the pros for pocket change.

Despite the Line 6 marketing savvy, there's a reason pros don't use the x3Live  on stage...its flimsy and it breaks down!

A rackmount Pod Pro?  Sure.   Just don't expect any of their floorboards to take a licking and keep on ticking.

In fact my 6-month old PodX3 Live broke down on me twice at crticial gigs (one opening for Train, one playing at a $100k wedding).

Therefore, I will never use a Pod product for live performance again in my life.

There's a reason why pro gear has a high price tag....because reliability ain't cheap!

(oh...and I am aware of the  ONE pro guitar player who flaunts his use of the X3 Live atm, and I hardly doubt his touring habits match what most of us would consider "regular rock use")

Well I guess they just aren't tough enough for the beating they will take on the Wedding Band pro tour.

Seriously, I am wetting my pants!



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Crusty_Old_Rocker on 2009-09-10 22:59:52

Slingy wrote:

Enter Variax into the equation and I think you have the ultimate set of modelling tools.

This is where I believe Line 6 has the edge.  If I traded in my Line 6 gear I'd probably have enough for an Axe_FX, but I wouldn't be interested.  The Variax is the key.  The ability to just tap a footswitch button and move from a Tele with open G tuning going through a Bassman amp and a Twin Reverb amp to an acoustic with drop D tuning going through no amp is something I couldn't do with an Axe-FX.

Amp and effects modelling took a while to gain traction in the guitar playing market.  But today it is broadly accepted in the market place.  This has led to more competition in the amp modelling industry.  Competition is based largely on tone (quantity and quality) and price.  As technology develops and improves the tone quality elements will become indistinguishable and it isn't strategically wise to compete only on price (that's when the product is reduced to a comodity).  Strategically, businesses should be looking at where they could gain and sustain a competitive advantage as their core product enters maturity.  This is where the Variax represents an enormous opportunity.  It is the big differentiator.

As it becomes more difficult to differentiate and gain competitive advantage in amp and effects modelling, it becomes increasingly important to gain that advantage elsewhere.  Ideally, it would be great to use a vertical integration strategy that can leverage existing expertise and drive sales of existing products that will yeild the greatest rewards without having to stray too far from the core business (which would require considerable capital investment and carry substantial risk).

If Line 6 were to develop the Variax to the point where every guitarist wanted a Variax, having their prorietary tie (VDI) control to the amp modelling products could drive demand for Line 6 amp modelling products.

So, I agree, the Variax could actually play an important strategic role in the future of amp modelling.

Cheers,

Crusty



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Crusty_Old_Rocker on 2009-09-10 23:03:48

TTonicMajor wrote:

The bottom line is that if one cannot make solid tones with the Line 6 gear, your hardware is the least of your worries. 

Now go work those chops!!!

Now there's some real wisdom.

Cheers,

Crusty



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by dingavinga on 2009-09-13 03:33:37

Line 6 rocks for its reasons and Fractal rocks for theirs. I would use both given the option. Simple.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by trock on 2009-09-20 19:52:13

wow, this forum has changed

i am one of the people who a while back asked about the fractal vs POD thing. i had a POD XT pro at the time and was looking at the X3 when i heard about the fractal. i heard alot of the samples from people on it and it sounded really good, sooooooooo i bought it.

months have passed and

well i am almost sorry i didn't go with the X3. i was FAST with my POD, and i got GOOD sounds out of it. with the fractal there is SO much on it that i can spend hours on one patch scrolling the 100's or amps, cabs, settings, effects etc

i literally have recorded no songs since i got it! now yes thats my fault but as a songwriter and NOT a guitarist per say but its been depressing to say the least

the other thing that throws me is the updates that come out alot, and the BETA of the software editor. now mine is racked in a studio so i reply on the software gui of anything racked that i can. the BETA is hardly workable and has been that way for months. yes they try to help their customers but this has been bad

plus i can't even figure out how to save a custom made preset! so write out all my settings for song!

aarrgghh, i thought i was really going to step it up. i want simple again

then i went back to my POD xt pro on my mac pro 10.5.8 and its gui editor wound't load! so i downloaded what i thought was a new editor and now NONE of my presets are there, especially my 2 favs

LEAD THE WAY

WARMIN UP

i may just buy the X3 POD bean

- by the way does the POD BEAN x3 come with the gui editor?



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2009-09-21 04:43:15

trock wrote:

- by the way does the POD BEAN x3 come with the gui editor?

Yes.  You can download GearBox editor from this site.

I suspected this was the case with the Axe, that it is so complex that you'll spend an eternity tweaking.  With my current modeler unit, I spent about 10 minutes total putting my patches together and haven't touched them since, that's how happy I am just to play and record with them.  I don't need no Axe.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by bmancini42 on 2009-09-21 15:09:01

I just went over to the other side. I had been using a Pod X3 Pro for maybe a year. I bought an Axe FX Ultra and sold the X3. It's definitely true that you can get good sounds out of the Pod. I had many reasons for liking it. But the Axe FX does the job of the POD and an Eventide Eclipse (which I also sold), better, cheaper, in 2 rack spaces instead of 4 and half the weight. The modeling is not perfect, but it's definitely better, and the effects are a lot better. Also the control and flexibility options are better on the Axe ... in 5 minutes I can program my expression pedal to fade out any number of effects as it is fading in any number of other effects. Pretty nuts ... like with the Eventide, it makes you feel like you can use your imagination again, instead of just trying to get your gear to give you a serviceable sound. For me it's a no-brainer.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by trock on 2009-09-21 16:55:36

are you able to save your presets on the editor yet?? i cannot for the life of me figure out how to do that, if it can be done on the latest beta



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by maestroj on 2009-10-14 03:53:12

Well i agree at full with you. It s the fingers and hands who make the music. I have seen you tube players who get the best sound out of cheap devices like Behringer. And i have seen those with boutique amps who s sound is like crap.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by brainstem3000 on 2009-10-14 08:34:48

future shreder

rock.JPG



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by brainstem3000 on 2009-10-14 08:36:41

ultra , with a variax/fbv longboard  interface , works like a champ! and the x3pro is also  a good backup

if needed

ultra.JPG



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Undertaker4 on 2009-10-20 07:35:47

Let me preface by saying I own a few Line6 products and I have no intention of buying an Axe-Fx; however here's a really good Axe-FX clip with a nice tone:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ElWp7Mquo8&fmt=22

Iwould love to see a good Line 6 patch that approximates this.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by sat_inder on 2009-10-20 11:06:46

I read the whole thread. Interesting discussion so far.

Although you can make good sounds/tones from any gear (given enough time and patience) whether it's a Pod, Axe-Fx, Amp or papercup, having more resources at your disposal is always a bonus. The key element here is that we all love technology, and technology that serves to our purposes (keep in mind that I'm using a very broad meaning of the word technology here). The next ingredient is your target audience: you, the crowd, your band, your client, or everyone. So use whatever tools you need to get YOUR job done, the one that puts a smile on your face. This is not an apology or conflict resolution statement. Just I want to make clear that needs are not fixed things, and you can change your mind anytime about the tools you need. I was a heavy Line6 user (XT, XT Live, Variax 600, Variax 300, Spider Jam, Spider Cabs, Toneport UX2, Floorboards. etc.) and I'm very thankful they've helped me to get my job done when it was needed. I had the opportunity to get an Axe-Fx and I did. The best piece of gear I've had period. But that it's FOR ME. YMMV.

It's been discussed previously that too many options on the Axe-FX will make you dizzy. Sure. But you can use it simpler as I do. Just an amp and a cab. Very intuitive..just like a POD. The only thing that changed was instead of turning knobs now I'm clicking keys. With my Toneport was the same, just an amp and a cab. My tone layout hasn't changed that much since. I'm not a great player but the tones I get are very satisfaying and the feel is incredible. Just like a real amp. That is something that you can't put in a demo on Youtube or Soundclick because it's highly subjective. Perhaps you will notice no difference (as I did) in a recording or in a venue. That's true. I used to fool a lot of people previously with my POD, so in the end you could pair things up quite successfully (given enough time and tweaking).

What I wanted to say to Axe-Fx, Amp and POD users is this: let us not be so arrogant about what is right or wrong in terms of tones or usability because that's too personal. It all depends on the point of view. POD technology worked GREAT for me. But for this time I'm sticking with the Axe. Who knows, maybe in the future when the POD fixes all the stuff that drove me away from them I'll be coming back gladly.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by HeavyChevy on 2009-10-20 17:01:23

Hey man....thanks for posting that.....

I love the way "Mark" widely opens his eyes and raises his eyebrows, as if to say "Line 6 - try and meet this !!!"  They can not.  I also would love to hear any L6 clips / downloads / patches that would even come close to being the equal to the sound of that video.  Hell, I am not even a big VH fan.  I do love great tone and I know when I hear it.  IMHO, it shows that L6 - once the best - are so far behind the eightball in late 2009 that they are not even close to being "in the game" anymore.  I forget the name of the member of this forum who (much to the ire of members of this community) clearly stated that L6 products were becoming nothing short of "toys".  As it turns out, he was right all along.  He took a tremendous pile of sheet from the kool aid kids.  Many others went through the same corporate gauntlet.  Almost all serious contributors to this forum are long gone.  I say this to provide some perspective.

Real men dig in and:

**Use Amplitube, Fractal, or real tube amps for professional and home recording in 2009

**Use real tube amps for playing live since day one, including 2009



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by DerMetzgermeister on 2009-10-20 17:25:17

HeavyChevy wrote:


Real men dig in and:

**Use Amplitube, Fractal, or real tube amps for professional and home recording in 2009

**Use real tube amps for playing live since day one, including 2009

Hahahahahahahaha

<a target=new href=http://listicles.thelmagazine.com/wp-content/upload/ironhide_facepalm.jpg"class="jive-image" src="http://listicles.thelmagazine.com/wp-content/upload/ironhide_facepalm.jpg"/>

Pathetic.

Real men don't even need gear. Pure tone comes out of their bare fingers.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by HeavyChevy on 2009-10-20 17:39:20

Fingers do not count.

I sing acapala..........



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by John_BlisterTip on 2009-10-21 03:57:22

Undertaker4 wrote:

Let me preface by saying I own a few Line6 products and I have no intention of buying an Axe-Fx; however here's a really good Axe-FX clip with a nice tone:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ElWp7Mquo8&fmt=22

Iwould love to see a good Line 6 patch that approximates this.

I have heard way better clips of the Axe than that. That is squishy and muddy--nothing like EVH's tone but more importantly its just sounds like a distortion pedal sound. Plug in the Chunk model with the rat pedal on a Pod for that tone. In fact that tone is very Pod and has some of the characteristics I dont like about Pod.  Seems like it would be a better lead sound. I have to write a disclaimer now...I think the Axe sounds good. What I disagree with is this notion that you cant compare it to the Pod as far as sound. As I said earlier...not only can it be compared but I havnt heard many amp sounds I cant get on the Pod--in fact the Pod has many more sounds overall. What Pod lacks is impulses and deep editing--which is the thing that makes Axe users able to overcome their weaknesses they had with the Pod. If you could deep edit on Pod the way you can with Axe..I think you would see the core of their amp models are not really better at all. Line6 needs to open up their models to tweaking. This way you could dial out the things you dont like and dial in the attributes you like in a particular amp model

In that way its better but this elitist attitude on their forum and others is borderline pathological--thats what chaps people arrse. Its like kiss my ring..I paid a grand more than I should have. Go to their forum..its freakin hysterical. It reminds me a roman bath house where they're all sitting around nude worshipping the very notion of their purchase. One fat guy with grapes says, "Oh those foolish little nothings with their toys...listen to me sustain this note with no pants on" haha. I kid...but there are a few real pompous joyboys who scold anyone with a gripe with the Axe. The first response is like, "When is the last time you had a CAT Scan you insolent fool...take him out back and shoot him ".


I dont have a clip of Panama but here is a VH clip I did.(attached)



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2009-10-21 06:08:34

As usual, John brings out the big guns and shows us it can be done on the POD.  Now if he'd just share with us how that was done...



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by phil_m on 2009-10-21 06:18:06

I agree with you about those forums, John.  I think it's the same reason I have a visceral reaction againt PRS guitars.  Yes, PRS makes a great product, but it seems that once you buy one above certain price point, it automatically makes you a douchebag  "You're playing a Les Paul Custom?  Man, I feel sorry for you..."

It's kind of sad that those are the sorts of things that turn people off about products, but it's really hard to get past those negative associations many times.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Undertaker4 on 2009-10-21 08:19:25

Don't misunderstand me, I wasn't being facetious, I'd like to have a POD patch that sounds like that (or better) as you suggest.  I'm not surprised at all that POD can sound like it.  FWIW, the guy admits we wasn't going for a "Panama" sound but that this was his regular "AxeFX" sound.  So, where can I get your patch? 



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Insidian on 2009-10-21 09:54:16

I've actually seen some pretty cool guys over at the Fractal forums, but honestly I only peruse the recordings section. Never even clicked on any other section of the forum. It's the product that matters, not if the people on the products forum are snobby or not. Hell, the way this forum has gone the past few years with all the a$$holes and super crazy fizz debates, if you bought a product by judging it's forum L6 would be broke.

P.S. I couldnt listen to the clip when I replied earlier, was at work. Tone is awesome, John, pretty much nailed it.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Slingy on 2009-10-21 11:13:18

You didn't mention which guitar you used on this, again. I have an Axis, I can nail the EVH tone on anything.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2009-10-21 16:30:54

Undertaker4 wrote:

So, where can I get your patch? 

You must be new to this forum.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Matt_J71 on 2009-10-21 16:51:49

I agree that the Panama clip is not Mark's best clip, but he says he isn't trying to sound like EVH.

I respect you JBT and I know you are a great player that can get great tones from the POD, but I still think there are sounds that people get with an Axe-Fx that the POD can't get. I think this video is a lot better example of the kind of tones I would like to hear you attempt with a POD:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsuLzFBx9uE

JBT- you might not like this tone, and you might think it is muddy or fuzzy or whatever - but if it is so easy to get that sound with the POD, then I would like to hear you get this exact tone. Don't make excuses like "I don't think it is good" or "just stick a Rat pedal in front of the chunk model" Let's hear you actually post a video or mp3 that sounds like that video.

You challenged all the Axe-Fx users to a shootout, but here is a tone that everyone on this Forum would like to hear you match - so let's see if you can do it. If you can get a POD to sound like this, then I will be amazed and will shut my mouth forever about the Axe-Fx being better.

I also don't understand why you constantly bash the Fractal forum for being a bunch of arrogant a-holes, yet you are famous for not sharing patches or telling people how you get the tones you get, or even what guitar and pickups you use. The guys at the Fractal forum seem to freely share their patches and tips and tricks, so what gives?

Don't get me wrong - I own a PODX3L and I can get some good tones out of it IMHO, but if I had $2000 lying around I would buy an Axe-Fx in an instant.

Maybe you are right - the amp models may not be any better, and if Line 6 would let people tweak their models with impulses, etc. the POD would sound just as good............but Line 6 hasn't done that........so until that happens people that want those sounds have no choice but buy an Axe-Fx.  Your assertion that people that have purchased an Axe-Fx have spent "$1,000 too much" would imply that there is a product that can do all the same things for $1,000 less. Which product would that be? Sure the Axe-Fx is pricey - but you could make the same argument about any expensive gear - some guys will argue that their Squier Strat is just as good as a Fender Custom Shop Strat - but if a guy is willing to pay the money for the top dollar instrument - then who is to say it isn't worth it?

Sure, some of the guys on the Fractal site are jerks that run their mouths, but the same thing can be said of any message board. Most of the guys on this board that run their mouth the most about "good tone" with the POD have videos on YouTube that sound like utter crap. Usually the guys that talk the most smack are the guys that can't play their way out of a paper bag, but that is just part of being on any message board.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2009-10-21 17:29:07

Matt_J71 wrote:

that the POD can't get. I think this video is a lot better example of the kind of tones I would like to hear you attempt with a POD:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsuLzFBx9uE

JBT- you might not like this tone, and you might think it is muddy or fuzzy or whatever - but if it is so easy to get that sound with the POD, then I would like to hear you get this exact tone.  of a paper bag, but that is just part of being on any message board.

I'm not 100% positive, but isn't that the same exact tone in the other video, just through the mics in the room instead of direct to ProTools?  The only fair way for John to duplicate that would also be with a room recording.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Matt_J71 on 2009-10-21 17:42:23

I don't think it is the same patch Karl.  In any case - I would love to hear a POD get that tone with OR without a cabinet - I don't think it can be done. The POD sounds worse through guitar cabinets - not better - so that is just another thing that the Axe-Fx can do better, no?

Mark has some other "direct to pro-tools clips" that sound much better than the Panama clip, so I know he isn't using the same patch all the time.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2009-10-21 17:59:17

Well, that may be the case for us mere mortals, but no matter what you think of JBT, he sure knows how to tweak a POD.  I would not be caught betting against him.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Insidian on 2009-10-21 18:08:06

I have to disagree with the "The Pod sounds worse through guitar cabinets" statement. I prefer the tone I get through my L6 cab, as do alot of others.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Insidian on 2009-10-21 18:38:58

You should check out all of his vids, he gets some good tones, and he's a pretty damn good guitar player. I'd be happy with the tones he has. I know I could pull those tones out of my X3L, or close, but tweaking is my weak point.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Undertaker4 on 2009-10-21 18:40:52

If users like Mark are willing to share patches and ideas then it will only serve to promote the AxeFX, and kudos to him.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Matt_J71 on 2009-10-21 19:26:36

You are definitely in the minority if you like running your POD through a guitar cabinet. If I had a dollar for every "the POD sounds best through a FRFR system" thread that has ever been posted on this board................

What are you using for a power amp? Are you running with the cab sims off? Have any clips of your setup?



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Insidian on 2009-10-21 20:04:12

Nah, dont have any good clips, mostly just stuff taken on video camera from shows. I do record direct when I'm at home, though. I'll even admit that the direct tone is better than any cabinet or FRFR system. I do use the cabs sims, and I use a Gigrac PA head for a power amp. The so called "Custom Celestions" in the Spider cab I have are really similar the Celestion 70/80s, they have a pretty flat response curve. I tried running through PA speakers, but I couldnt seem to keep my tone from being too thin and bright. But, as we all know, tone is subjective. What I think sounds good might make you cringe.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2009-10-21 20:42:54

Undertaker4 wrote:

If users like Mark are willing to share patches and ideas then it will only serve to promote the AxeFX, and kudos to him.

I think you and the others misunderstood me.  I'm not referring to Mark.

And by the way, I do like some of the other tones he has there.  Sounds great to me.  So does the Axe.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by nuser101 on 2009-10-22 11:10:34

Matt_J71 wrote:

I respect you JBT and I know you are a great player that can get great tones from the POD, but I still think there are sounds that people get with an Axe-Fx that the POD can't get. I think this video is a lot better example of the kind of tones I would like to hear you attempt with a POD:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsuLzFBx9uE

JBT- you might not like this tone, and you might think it is muddy or fuzzy or whatever - but if it is so easy to get that sound with the POD, then I would like to hear you get this exact tone.

No offense, but you can't be serious. Isn't that Suhr guitar with active pickups part of what you're hearing?

Secondly, one bad thing modelers have done is convince people that there is an exact tone out there that's invariant. I don't agree with this at all. Take the guy on youtube and put him in differing non-studio venues (bars, halls, concert arenas). The tone will not be exactly the same, even with the same freakin' guitar and patch. When you start looking for "exact" tones, you go beyond modeling into a world of impossibility.

Perhaps the exact tone could be matched direct in, but so what? What would be the point of that - just sitting in a studio reproducing an exact tone doesn't interest me at all. In the majority of venues anybody really plays, all you really need is a good feel, or groove or whatever you want to call it. It's not a mechanical thing.

Please understand that this is just an opinion, Matt, and don't interpret it as a flame. Over time though, I've seen so many gear wars that really don't amount to much - the focus should always be the playing. If the playing's right, the tone is really secondary. I know that's heretical, around here, but I believe it was Steve Howe who said, "If it doesn't sound good clean, it won't sound good." That's something an old fart like me relates to.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Matt_J71 on 2009-10-22 16:28:14

I am not looking for one specific tone......but JBT keeps saying that he can match any tone that can be done on the Axe-Fx with the POD - I just gave him an example of an exact tone that I would like to hear him attempt with the POD.

The active pickups probably do have some effect on the tone, but I don't know that the name on the headstock makes that guitar sound that much better than any other decent quality guitar with good pickups.

What would be the point of matching that tone? Well, me and about 10,000 other POD users would love to get a tone that good with their pod, so if JBT has some magic potion to make that possible, then I am ready for him to lay the patch on me.

We all know it isn't going to happen - but if people are going to claim that a POD can do everything that an Axe-Fx can do, then they should be prepared to demonstrate it.

I am not loyal to Fractal, I am not loyal to L6, I am not loyal to Boss.....I am just a guitarist that wants to get the best possible sound from my gear. If someone knows a way to get a $500 PODX3L to sound just as good as a $2000 Axe-Fx, then by all means bestow your knowledge upon us.........but if you aren't prepared to prove it, then quit making that claim. That is all I am saying.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by phil_m on 2009-10-22 16:49:54

The active pickups probably do have some effect on the tone, but I
don't know that the name on the headstock makes that guitar sound that much better than any other decent quality guitar with good pickups.

I don't really have a horse in this race, but I would dispute this statement.  Pickups make a huge difference in the tone you get.  You don't realize it how much until you play a guitar with great pickups and then compare that to one with just average ones.

OK, sorry for the interruption...



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Matt_J71 on 2009-10-22 20:39:16

I think you misundestood what I meant........YES, pickups make a huge difference in tone. I was actually disputing the fact that a Duncan Blackout in a Suhr guitar would sound that much different than it would in a less expensive guitar like a Charvel, Ibanez, etc. Just because the Suhr guitar costs $4000 doesn't mean it would sound THAT much better than any other decent quality guitar with the same pickups. You can buy Duncan Blackouts for under 200 bucks and put them in any decent guitar and probably get the same tone that Mark is getting with his Suhr.........that is all I was trying to say.

Quality pickups do indeed make a huge difference in tone. I agree 100%



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by amgamg on 2009-10-23 07:38:02

I dunno.....

Why is it as time goes by I'm less and less impressed by yet another guy rehashing what an already really rich and famous guitarist is probably sick of doing by now himself!

Why is it I could care less how anyone gets any sounds...even my own sounds for that matter...so long as I sound good and remember how I did it!

Also just wanted to throw into the mix....just about every classic guitar lead.. song... whatever... was done without any of the gear so many want to argue about.

Makes me think real talant trumps gear everytime!



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by DerMetzgermeister on 2009-10-23 09:21:53

Matt_J71 wrote:

I think you misundestood what I meant........YES, pickups make a huge difference in tone. I was actually disputing the fact that a Duncan Blackout in a Suhr guitar would sound that much different than it would in a less expensive guitar like a Charvel, Ibanez, etc. Just because the Suhr guitar costs $4000 doesn't mean it would sound THAT much better than any other decent quality guitar with the same pickups. You can buy Duncan Blackouts for under 200 bucks and put them in any decent guitar and probably get the same tone that Mark is getting with his Suhr.........that is all I was trying to say.

Quality pickups do indeed make a huge difference in tone. I agree 100%

Does Suhr guitars have a forum? I would love to know what they think about that.

Oh, god.. the irony... Overwhelming.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Slingy on 2009-10-23 09:56:53

Not sure why this debate is still going on. I'm sure the Axe is killer. But for those who just want to go direct to pc you can get the line6 sounds for under $100. An Axe is $2000+ hardware unit which still requires an audio interface to record it.

As far as pickups go, well you just have to know which guitars are good at which sounds. I've got my eye on Fractal, when they make a pc interface that runs a vst I will have a close look at it. For now I have no use for great sounding delays and reverbs that are permanently recorded, because you cant possibly get it 100% right until you start mixing. For this reason I don't need an X3 either, even though it comes with reamp options free vst which fractal does not.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Matt_J71 on 2009-10-24 14:10:32

LOL - yeah I am sure the guys on the Suhr Forum would go ballistic if they read my comments. Ironic indeed.........



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by HeavyChevy on 2009-10-26 12:07:54

Ok.  I'll go out on a limb........

IMHO, a crap guitar through a great amp or simulator, will always sound better than a great guitar through a crap amp or simulator.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by DerMetzgermeister on 2009-10-26 12:19:26

HeavyChevy wrote:

Ok.  I'll go out on a limb........

IMHO, a crap guitar through a great amp or simulator, will always sound better than a great guitar through a crap amp or simulator.

Agreed.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by spaceatl on 2009-10-26 12:30:26

Yea...I'm down with that...Also...A great player with a guitar, a great amp and a crappy cable might not sound so good either...To me it's like a chain and anything bad in the chain can mean a less-preferred outcome...But I have seen some really remarkable players make it work on marginal gear...It isn't only the playing, it is also understanding what the boundries might be on the guitar, gear or whatever....



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Matt_J71 on 2009-10-26 14:15:15

That was kinda my point.......the tone on that video has more to do with the Axe-Fx than the Suhr guitar that he is playing. That isn't taking anything away from the quality of the guitar.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by feedingjoey on 2009-10-27 18:03:07

If you've ever owned a real tube amp, or any number of them for that matter you will instantly understand why the AX FX is the real deal. A lot of guys here have never played a Les Paul through a fully cranked vintage Marshall for any real length of time. They've been stuck in the "POD" world forever. All the line 6 products make great sounds. They record well and are pretty easy to use. But big ballzy tube amp they aint. (but I will say the Bogner / Line 6 amps are the real deal) But after some of the drawbacks I've experienced with the L6 gear I still have to slate it as "consumer electronics". The AX FX is professional touring and recording grade merchandise. It's not made in China.  BMW's aren't made in China either. That's why it it's so expensive.You get what you pay for. Simply put the quality of this device is far superior to anything line 6 produces. So you can't really compare the two. Line 6 is in the business of making cheap consumer products. Fractal is in the business of making high end professional gear. For us working pro's $2000 is not expensive for that type of quality product. Hell, a Bogner Ubershall will set you back more that this will. Why wouldn't you spent $2000 on a tool that will help you make $60,000 + a year (if you know what your doing)?

From experience I will tell you thet the AX FX sounds, feels and responds EXACTLY like a real tube amp.

Did anyone know that Dweezil Zappa is using one on the Zappa plays Zappa tour? Fractal didn't approach him. He went to Fractal. I looked up tone freak in the dictonary and there was a picture of Dweezil.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by amgamg on 2009-10-27 19:00:08

For something that cant be compared to Line 6.....its being compared constantly in this thread....interesting!



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2009-10-27 21:00:53

feedingjoey wrote:


From experience I will tell you thet the AX FX sounds, feels and responds EXACTLY like a real tube amp.

Hyperbole.  It is a modeler...well, okay, it isn't a modeler...oh, it is one...but wait, no, it's just an effects unit...with good amp sims.

Whatever it is, it isn't a tube amp.  No doubt it has good sound and feel, but it is still an imitation of the real thing.  Just like the POD.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by fester2000 on 2009-10-27 21:10:23

Karl_Houseknecht wrote:

feedingjoey wrote:


From experience I will tell you thet the AX FX sounds, feels and responds EXACTLY like a real tube amp.

Hyperbole.  It is a modeler...well, okay, it isn't a modeler...oh, it is one...but wait, no, it's just an effects unit...with good amp sims.

Whatever it is, it isn't a tube amp.  No doubt it has good sound and feel, but it is still an imitation of the real thing.  Just like the POD.

You can usually spot the cork sniffers when they make an analogy to BMWs.  Not that there's anything wrong with BMWs, or Ax Fx's, but the whole "you've never played a cranked Marshall with a real 1959 Les Paul so you don't know good tone" attitude to me comes off as someone whose opinion I can't really trust.  Even if I've never actually experienced blissful tone, I've heard it on countless albums and live shows.

Maybe it's just me, I dunno.  I still maintain that the amp models in the X3 generation (not the cab sims) are truly spectacular.  I never felt quite so passionate about them until I played them through the clean channel of a tube amp into a Marshall 2x12 cab with the cab sims off.  The clean side of the vox models, in particular, just sound incredible to my ears.

Cheers,

Fester2k



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by feedingjoey on 2009-10-28 01:39:47

Well OK. I'm a cork sniffer. But I must be drinking 2 Buck Chuck because I own a bunch of line 6 gear. Call me a snob because I've been doing this for 30 years and I have some experience and knowledge about what I'm talking about. That's OK with me. I've done the homework and the side by side comparisons on this unit. I'll bet you haven't. You bet it's just another Modeler. I never said it wasn't. But this is one that works and sounds like no other that you've played before. And it certainly isn't just like the POD. Don't take my word for it. See and play it for yourself. I also never said that you wouldn't know good tone if you didn't play through the real thing. I was implying the majority of line 6 customers probably wouldn't know because for the most part line 6 products are bought by budget minded people who either can't afford to buy a vintage amp or are smart enough see the value and advantage that a line 6 product offers over a vintage amp. Therefore chances are most have not been blessed with the experience of spending any real amount of play time with a vintage tube amp. Remember I said most not ALL. I totally agree that you can listen to a recording and learn what great tone is. BUT there is a HUGE difference between hearing a recording of great amp or for that matter being in the audience near one compared with playing through one. Until you play through it you simply can't understand the "Feel" and that my friend is what I've been talking about all along. That is something you will never get from a recording. Tone isn't just about what you hear with your ears. Sound is a vibration you feel just as much as you hear. When your plugged in standing next to that cranked up amp that sound and vibration transfers back to the guitar (sometimes causing feedback). It's a direct result of the power and frequencies delivered by the amp. You can totally feel it and your fingers ability to manipulate that is where the real magic happens. It's what makes Slash, Slash and Clapton, Clapton. That transition or "feeling" between amp and guitar is what gets lost in Modeling. So If you've never experienced it first hand you can't possibly know what I'm talking about, to you, the AX FX will just be an expensive box. Now I'm not saying that the AX FX nails this 100% of the time but what I am saying is that when you play through this thing where it really counts it does feel and respond LIKE the real deal. When you roll back the volume knob it cleans up EXACTLY like a tube amp does. To really understand that, you have to actually do that with a tube amp and experience it first hand. You might think your current modeler does but in my experience I haven't found one that truly captures this. Maybe I should say, The AX FX responds more like a real amp than any other modeler that I've played through yet. I've pretty much tried them all.

I couldn't agree more that the L6 CLEAN tones are simply amazing especially through a tube power amp like a Marshall. It's one of the reasons I own L6 gear.  However I always have, and still have to this day, trouble with the L6 Distortions cutting through the mix even with tube power amps. So for me, until L6 comes up with a solution for that, my XT stays in the studio and I only use it for clean and acoustic stuff with my Variax. The L6 Bogner amps are killer and do not have the distortion problems. They cut through like butter.  I'm seriously consider buying one. But since the AX FX came out I decided to hold off on buying anything for awhile. I still want to see a bunch of people use and abuse this thing. My best friend owns one and I get to use and abuse it whenever I want. So I'm gonna watch his for awhile because sometimes new products have lots of problems. Especially from new companies. Line 6 has "time" on their side, but their customer service still leaves a lot to be desired and that weighs heavy on my Bogner and AX FX decision.

Good luck guys. Don't knock it until you've tried it.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2009-10-28 05:18:11

feedingjoey wrote:

Maybe I should say, The AX FX responds more like a real amp than any other modeler that I've played through yet.

I think that would be a much more fair statement, and a much more realistic one.  And please, don't assume so much about who we are or what we play through.  My Line6 gear right now consists of a wireless and a TonePort.  Certainly not what I'm playing live through.

Also, don't assume we've never tried an Axe.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by phil_m on 2009-10-28 05:34:28

Call me crazy, but I still think $2000 is too steep for a product that will probably be considered obsolete in ten years.  Of course, it will still sound good, but it will be replaced by something the market considers better, and unless it somehow becomes a collector's item (which, who knows, it might) the resell value will plummet.  It's essentially a rack-mounted computer.  I'm not saying it doesn't do what it does well, but it would just be hard for me to justify that purchase to myself.  If you spend $2000 on a nice tube amp, you can be pretty sure that if you do sell it, it will maintain it's value.

I guess that's the downside of going the digital/technology route with these things.  It really does become a lot more like buying a computer.  You almost have to look at it like investing in a tool that will work for while then be replaced a few years down the road with little to no recouping on the original investment.  So, yeah, if you're an actual touring musician or studio guy making a decent amount of money, putting $2000 (plus whatever you need on the control side) wouldn't be a big deal.  But if you're the typical gear buyer who just records at home and plays out on a semi-regular basis, it's another thing altogether.  I think the latter market is definitely what Line 6 has tapped into, and you can't fault them for that.  That's really the market that's going to continue to grow.  The professional end of the music business is actually still shrinking, so it doesn't really surprise me that Line has scaled back making products that you would call "pro".



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by amgamg on 2009-10-28 06:39:29

You guys are terrible...your making me think!

Just wondering....how many major label recordings have had some Line6 product used on it at any given moment in time since Line6 has been around??????

Just wondering...which is almost as bad as thinking



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by jessecryderman on 2009-10-28 07:57:04

feedingjoey wrote:

Tone isn't just about what you hear with your ears. Sound is a vibration you feel just as much as you hear. When your plugged in standing next to that cranked up amp that sound and vibration transfers back to the guitar (sometimes causing feedback). It's a direct result of the power and frequencies delivered by the amp. You can totally feel it and your fingers ability to manipulate that is where the real magic happens. It's what makes Slash, Slash and Clapton, Clapton. That transition or "feeling" between amp and guitar is what gets lost in Modeling. So If you've never experienced it first hand you can't possibly know what I'm talking about, to you, the AX FX will just be an expensive box. Now I'm not saying that the AX FX nails this 100% of the time but what I am saying is that when you play through this thing where it really counts it does feel and respond LIKE the real deal. When you roll back the volume knob it cleans up EXACTLY like a tube amp does. To really understand that, you have to actually do that with a tube amp and experience it first hand. You might think your current modeler does but in my experience I haven't found one that truly captures this.


That paragraph is the best summation of the modelling dilemma that I have ever read.

Indeed, this is so true.  In 1998 I stumbled onto 100% vintage 1960 Fender Concert 4X10 in the basement of an apartment I rented--and the landlord let me have it for $100!  Holy smokes...talk about tone...but even more importantly, FEEL!  The way my hands+axe+amp interacted was like nothing I had experienced at that point.  Magic...esp...hard to describe, but unforgettable.  (it also had a TRUE VIBRATO circuit....not the mislabelled tremolo circuits on the later Fenders).

I play better guitar when I can feel the notes blossom under my hands and can literally learn to control the curve of tube compression with my picking and fretting dynamics.

So I agree with feedingjoey...you can ape the sound of the amps, but damn, the feel has never been right.  If the Axe-Fx is doing that, than its worth every penny.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by jessecryderman on 2009-10-28 08:24:05

hil_m wrote:

Call me crazy, but I still think $2000 is too steep for a product that will probably be considered obsolete in ten years.  Of course, it will still sound good, but it will be replaced by something the market considers better, and unless it somehow becomes a collector's item (which, who knows, it might) the resell value will plummet.  It's essentially a rack-mounted computer.  I'm not saying it doesn't do what it does well, but it would just be hard for me to justify that purchase to myself.  If you spend $2000 on a nice tube amp, you can be pretty sure that if you do sell it, it will maintain it's value.

I see where you are coming from, but its not at all true.  OLDER High end digital rack gear is still in high demand in studios and guitar racks...I'm specifically referring to Lexicon PCM reverbs, Eventide Harmonizers, etc...this stuff was made well over a decade ago and held its value just fine--even increasing in many cases.

That's partly because the quality of the components--for example, high-end op-amps like Burr Brown OPA627, have been in use for decades.  They are very desirable and they aren't cheap.  Their use in signal chains also haven't been replaced by modern topologies.

Its expensive to build gear with top components by hand...period.  But the results speak for themselves.

If you doubt me, go into any major studio in LA.  I guarantee they have a Lexicon PCM delay, an Eventide Harmonizer, and a console with OLD CHANNEL STRIPS.

So if the Axe-FX lives up to its legend, there is no reason for it to assume it will be "obsolete" based on age alone.

Again, modern manufacturers have been making effects for decades, but people STILL use more Tubescreamer-style circuits (based on a 25+ yr. old design) than anything else.  And in some cases will pay $300+ for either an original or a modern take on an original.  Why?  It sounds great and is reliable.

Why do people want old-ass Space Echo units when they can get a modern pedal with a million more settings for $100?  Why?  Because the Space Echo sounds better and has interesting analog artifacts.

Further, I would argue that almost ANY modern tube amp made by Marshall, Fender, Peavey, Crate, or similar brands is going to be near worthless in 15 years.  They're PCB mass-assembled, non-innovative tone suckers for the most part.

Maybe if you spent $2,000 on a Rivera or something, but still, the resale market on amps is not at all what it used to be.  Its oversaturated on one end with great handmade stuff--tons and tons of builders--and on the other end with cheapo stuff--Peavey Vypyer, Line6, etc.

About the only thing that holds or increases in value are:

VINTAGE amps and guitars...anything pre-CBS Fender, early Marshall, etc.

HIGH END audio gear....anything with hard-to-get top-end components and/or innovative topologies...mixing consoles, effects units, etc.

RARE vintage effects...one-offs and hard-to-find stuff like the Bee-Baa and such

HANDMADE gear by a builder who died..original Joe Barden pickups, Trainwreck amps, etc.

Just spend some time on C/L or sleezebay and you can see for yourself.

Just like with cars...in most cases you're no longer buying "destined to be classics"...you're buying discount imitators of classic designs.  And when you drive off the lot, you immediately lose value.

This is true with virtually every amp made by living designers (save Dumble), and 100% true of anything made on a modern production line.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2009-10-28 08:49:37

jessecryderman wrote:

So if the Axe-FX lives up to its legend, there is no reason for it to assume it will be "obsolete" based on age alone.

I think Phil was talking about Moore's Law.  Case in point with the Axe-Fx?  The Axe-Fx Ultra.  The Axe Standard has been effectively been made obsolete by the introduction of a more powerful unit.  You see users over on the Axe forum all the time advertizing their old Standard unit for sale so they can buy an Ultra.  And why?

Because the power of the Standard is not capable of running all the new features of the Ultra.  Or indeed running some more complex patches with multiple amps, delays, etc.  So it's hardware upgrade time.

As Fractal continues to make their algorithms sound better, it's going to call for upgraded hardware.  Eventually, there will be an Ultra MKII, and then the Ultra will be obsolete.  And eventually, they'll drop upgrade support for the Standard and the Ultra.  When that happens, the prices of Standards on eBay will plummet.

Hey, it happens with every product.  The Axe isn't some golden idol.  It's a computer.  Just keep it real.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by jessecryderman on 2009-10-28 09:07:05

fully understand Moore's Law, but it was created and applies to the computational power of CPUs.

If Moore's law was true for innovative, high-quality component hardware, the Eventide H3000 would not still gor for $1000+, but it does.

The Roland Space Echo would be worthless, but its not.  The Lexicon PCM delays would be in the trash, but they're not.

The H3000 a 12-yr+. old piece of gear, and its in most major studios. Same for my other examples.

Again, you're applying a law concerning computing power of processors.  That has nothing to do with S/N ratio, boutique op-amps, etc....none of these things lose intrinsic value over time.

Sure, with a faster DSP you can have more instance of delay, etc., in one patch.

But really what everyone is after is good sound.

Something that can do only one effect but with huge headroom and transparent signal processing will be preferred everytime over something with a million patches that all need massive noisegating.

Again, go into any major studio.  No one uses one box to get forty effects at once.

Everything is discrete and high-end component topolgy, and there is a reason for this.

When you read the specs for modern equipment, you're looking at the optimal S/N, etc. for the DSP chip itself.  The audio signal still has to run through a series of filters, op-amps, etc., and these are most certainly cheapo and far from the optimal DSP specs if you're paying under a grand for the unit.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by jessecryderman on 2009-10-28 09:12:23

double post



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Slingy on 2009-10-28 09:19:34

Are there any plans to make a VST version?



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by phil_m on 2009-10-28 09:21:33

You may be correct.  I don't know.  As I stated before, the Axe FX Ultra may end being something of collector's item.  The reason those items you mention have held their value is simply that there's a market for them.  There are certainly plenty of outdated digital processors in studios collecting dust that can hardly be given away.  I also think that the way studios are going, these things are soon going to be completely replaced by plug-ins.  There may be a few hardcore folks who insist on using their old racks, but eventually they will be history.

I'm not commenting at all about the sound quality or build quality of the Axe-FX.  From what I can tell, both are top notch.  I simply think that for what it is, it's not something the average guitarist will spend $2000 on.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by jessecryderman on 2009-10-28 09:26:09

Haha..that would be great, right?!

Only prob is you're not benefitting from the expensive part of the unit.

Just like UA can sell "pultec channel strip" VSTs that don't give you Pultec sound.

Why?   Your guitar signal went through 25 tone-wrecking filters and your noisy DSP before being manipulated by the plugin.

I laugh everytime I hear a Beatles record or anything engineered by Tom Dowd and then read people talking about "new" gear with such better sound.

If that were true, why does every major studio spend thousands to get OLD consoles and channel strips...why is there a whole industry devoted to rackmounting old channel strips...

Hmmm...where's Dr. Moore when you need him!

There is no way around cheap, noisy audio components!  Its a matter of physics!



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by jessecryderman on 2009-10-28 09:28:40

double post



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by jessecryderman on 2009-10-28 09:38:34

phil_m wrote:

You may be correct.  I don't know.  As I stated before, the Axe FX Ultra may end being something of collector's item.  The reason those items you mention have held their value is simply that there's a market for them.  There are certainly plenty of outdated digital processors in studios collecting dust that can hardly be given away.  I also think that the way studios are going, these things are soon going to be completely replaced by plug-ins.  There may be a few hardcore folks who insist on using their old racks, but eventually they will be history.

I'm not commenting at all about the sound quality or build quality of the Axe-FX.  From what I can tell, both are top notch.  I simply think that for what it is, it's not something the average guitarist will spend $2000 on.

You're right, its not something for the average guitar player.

But to be honest, if I knew then (15 yrs ago) what I know now, I would have save my money and purchased one high-end unit.  I (and countless other guitar players) have spent in excess of $10k on effects, processors, etc. over the years that I replaced.

And in re: to your plug-in theory....based on what?  What studios? What city do you live in?

I don't know a single engineer in any major studio who prefers plugins over quality outboard gear!

Amatuer home studios?  Sure.

But get real, there's a reason why it costs a lot to record/mix/master at a high-end studio.  The gear is expensive and sounds incredible from the get go.

Literally no one making major records would rely on a plug-in over the real deal given the choice, for a million resons too long to discuss, and too obvious if you know audio.

Have you ever heard the difference yourself?

You can't get around the signal chain no matter how good your DSP becomes.  You have to pay for top components to get the best fidelity.

And the market for high-end gear is not a "collectors" phenomenon.  Its purely based on the economics of handmade, superior technology.

Again, I can site a million examples of this, but if you don't get it, you don't get it.

Collectors have done nothing good for the market.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by amgamg on 2009-10-28 09:39:08

Whatd' ya know!

http://guitars.musiciansfriend.com/product/Digidesign-Eleven-Rack-Guitar-Multi-Effects-Processor?sku=621068



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by jessecryderman on 2009-10-28 09:41:57

double post



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by jessecryderman on 2009-10-28 09:43:41

You guys are stuck in the "faster DSP = better sound" marketing trap that has made all of these Chinese-beholden companies millions of dollars.

Spend four hours and read about the physics of audio recording, and you'll answer all of your own questions.

Again, fitting a floorboard with 5 cent switches, a DSP, and a fancy interface built by robots in China = obsolesence.

PTP handwiring hi-fidelity components, $10 switches, and using proven archietecure for a unit = longevity.

Ref. any older piece of gear that is always used in studios.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2009-10-28 09:51:12

jessecryderman wrote:

You guys are stuck in the "faster DSP = better sound" marketing trap that has made all of these Chinese-beholden companies millions of dollars.

Which has also been perpetuated by Fractal.  We hear all the time how the more powerful processor the Axe-Fx makes it possible to have killer algorithms for amp and effects modeling.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by jessecryderman on 2009-10-28 09:56:14

double post



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by jessecryderman on 2009-10-28 09:57:21

double post.

can someone at line6 please test their forum software in a modern browser (i.e. Firefox)?   Geesh....



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by jessecryderman on 2009-10-28 09:57:50

Karl_Houseknecht wrote:

jessecryderman wrote:

You guys are stuck in the "faster DSP = better sound" marketing trap that has made all of these Chinese-beholden companies millions of dollars.

Which has also been perpetuated by Fractal.  We hear all the time how the more powerful processor the Axe-Fx makes it possible to have killer algorithms for amp and effects modeling.

Sure, they're in the same boat. I'm not giving anyone a free pass here.

I'm just saying that handwired high-end components and discrete topology costs money, sounds better, and lasts longer.

You guys want to bemoan the price, and that's why it expensive.

DSP chips are cheap as hell.

How else could you buy  pocket pod for $99?

The cost is associated with REAL COMMODITIES....labor and materials.  PLASTIC is cheap.  Chinese computer-aided manufacturing is CHEAP.

Maybe this is why my pre-CBS bassman has been used for almost 50 years and never failed...and  why my X3 died after 5 months of use and has been at Line6 for a month....



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Undertaker4 on 2009-10-28 09:57:54

I agree with this 100%.  As for what the "big studios" use, I don't really care, as I don't run a big studio.

"

Call me crazy, but I still think $2000 is too steep for a product that will probably be considered obsolete in ten years.  Of course, it will still sound good, but it will be replaced by something the market considers better, and unless it somehow becomes a collector's item (which, who knows, it might) the resell value will plummet.  It's essentially a rack-mounted computer.  I'm not saying it doesn't do what it does well, but it would just be hard for me to justify that purchase to myself.  If you spend $2000 on a nice tube amp, you can be pretty sure that if you do sell it, it will maintain it's value.

I guess that's the downside of going the digital/technology route with these things.  It really does become a lot more like buying a computer.  You almost have to look at it like investing in a tool that will work for while then be replaced a few years down the road with little to no recouping on the original investment.  So, yeah, if you're an actual touring musician or studio guy making a decent amount of money, putting $2000 (plus whatever you need on the control side) wouldn't be a big deal.  But if you're the typical gear buyer who just records at home and plays out on a semi-regular basis, it's another thing altogether.  I think the latter market is definitely what Line 6 has tapped into, and you can't fault them for that.  That's really the market that's going to continue to grow.  The professional end of the music business is actually still shrinking, so it doesn't really surprise me that Line has scaled back making products that you would call "pro"."



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by jessecryderman on 2009-10-28 10:02:14

Fair enough.

You guys want to bemoan the price of the Axe-FX, and all I'm doing is explaining it.

If you want top quality, you pay for it.

LABOR + MATERIALS + MARKETING = cost

I guarantee Line6 pays more for marketing than for components.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2009-10-28 10:06:18

Hey, nobody's denying that that Axe is made from quality stuff.  It is.  And nobody's denying it sounds good.  It does.

What many of us take offense to are attitudes like this:

(I didn't make this up, this is taken directly from a post over on the Fractal forum.  And frankly, I'm a little miffed that anyone would have used an image of our Lord in this fashion, but I show you this to illustrate)

<a target=new href=http://i36.tinypic.com/v4rytk.jpg"class="jive-image" src="http://i36.tinypic.com/v4rytk.jpg"/>



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Slingy on 2009-10-28 10:16:21

Well I appreciate the insight. I only asked if there was a VST coming or not. It's a digital processor right? As long as you have a high quality analog/digital conversion I don't see any reason why they couldn't make a great sounding VST. It would be great Jesse if you supported this thread with some audio clips, show us the PRO sound your getting, really, I want to hear it. Demos speak louder than words.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by phil_m on 2009-10-28 10:16:33

I wasn't "bemoaning" anything... I completely understand why the Axe-FX costs what is does from a component standpoint and the economies of scale perspective. We're not idiots.

All I'm saying is that Axe-FX is aimed at a rather small portion of the overall guitar market, whereas Line 6 has largely given up on that niche. Sheesh...

$2,000 may not be a lot to a touring musician, but I, and a lot of other people, can't justify spending that on a piece of equipment like the Axe-FX.

I would also note that distance between "top quality" and mainstream is getting smaller everyday.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Undertaker4 on 2009-10-28 10:37:29

Honestly, as has been stated before, if you're home recording, vsts are the way to go simply because you can do non-destructive editing of your tone -- not to mention the thousands of free vsts out there and very reasonably priced guitar suites like Pod Farm and Guitar Rig.  There is tremendous flexibility from vsts on the home recording front by running a dry signal and using VSTs to shape the tone.

I totally get why the AxeFX is so expensive and it's probably a value considering all you get, and if I was a pro musician doing serious gigging and needing dozens of tones on a regular basis,  I'd be looking into it (though I'd probably still go with a quality amp/pedals).



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by jessecryderman on 2009-10-28 10:37:32

Look, either you understand the specifications and applications of audio components or you don't.

Sound clips don't change your understanding of basic audio physics.  Who shops based on compressed MP3 soundclips anyways?   YOUR hands on YOUR guitar through YOUR rig is the only way you can really test a product.  What you like and why I like may differ.  That's not what I've been writing about.

The price of the Axe-FX is constantly brought up on this thread, and that is the textbook definition of bemoaning....maybe you phil_m  aren't personally guilty of this relatively inocuous verb, but it really wasn't used as a pejorative so relax.

FYI--a single Burr-Brown Op-Amp costs more than all of the hardware components of a Pod.

And an hour of actual human labor costs more than 40 hours of computer-based Chinese manufacturing.

You don't have to spend $2000 to get good sound, not at all.

But my justification for the price of the AXE-FX is:

1. There is intrinsic value in the components, and as such, you won't have to replace it, repair it, or lose a large percentage of value on it for many years.

2. If you added up the cost of gear you have replaced over the years, you'd be surprised what you can afford.

Ref. my earlier comment about the pre-cbs Fender Bassman...50 years of service, no problems.  How much money do you think you'll spend on amps in 50 years?

I'm done with this thread...just thought I'd clear up some misunderstandings.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by phil_m on 2009-10-28 10:55:06
Sound clips don't change your understanding of basic audio physics. 
Who shops based on compressed MP3 soundclips anyways?   YOUR hands on
YOUR guitar through YOUR rig is the only way you can really test a
product.  What you like and why I like may differ.  That's not what
I've been writing about.

So true.  We all want the best sounding gear, so we make a hit song, that will in turn be recorded on the best sounding recording equipment we can find, so that in turn will be compressed into an MP3 or ringtone...

That's the whole irony of these discussions to me - we will drive ourselves batty searching for the best guitar tone where most of will do one of the following:

1.  Play in bars or clubs where a big portion of the audience is so drunk, they couldn't tell a guitar tone from a car horn.

2.  Play in churches where they keep the electric guitar so low in mix that no one hears you anyway.

3.  Record songs that get played back on audio streamer on Myspace.

Sometimes I kind of feel like it's comparable to a great winemaker crafting a great Chardonnay, only to have the customer drink it along with a Big Mac.

(I'm not meaning this to be in any way, shape or form to denigrate what you said - I was just using it a springboard)



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Slingy on 2009-10-28 10:59:19

No clips gets a big boo from me. Posting clips is just fun and challenging. And this forum has a long tradition of sharing clips and tips. I'm gonna be honest here, my last two guitar purchases were as much as the Axe, so I know the value of good gear. I may get one in the future. But I don't have lots of cash, and everytime I'm ready, I can't resist getting a new guitar instead.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by jessecryderman on 2009-10-28 11:00:18

phil_m wrote:

Sound clips don't change your understanding of basic audio physics.
Who shops based on compressed MP3 soundclips anyways?   YOUR hands on
YOUR guitar through YOUR rig is the only way you can really test a
product.  What you like and why I like may differ.  That's not what
I've been writing about.

So true.  We all want the best sounding gear, so we make a hit song, that will in turn be recorded on the best sounding recording equipment we can find, so that in turn will be compressed into an MP3 or ringtone...

That's the whole irony of these discussions to me - we will drive ourselves batty searching for the best guitar tone where most of will do one of the following:

1.  Play in bars or clubs where a big portion of the audience is so drunk, they couldn't tell a guitar tone from a car horn.

2.  Play in churches where they keep the electric guitar so low in mix that no one hears you anyway.

3.  Record songs that get played back on audio streamer on Myspace.

Sometimes I kind of feel like it's comparable to a great winemaker crafting a great Chardonnay, only to have the customer drink it along with a Big Mac.

(I'm not meaning this to be in any way, shape or form to denigrate what you said - I was just using it a springboard)

Hahaha...so true, so true.

I love how bad cymbals sound on MP3s....all that warbly wash...



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by donfrantz on 2009-10-28 11:23:02

Don't really want to get too heavily into this discussion--I have The Fractal Ultra (which sounds dynamite with your Roadstar, Karl!) XT Live and M-13--but there is a PC version of the Fractal coming.

Did anyone catch this? Cliff on Rig Talk:

"beta version of our VST (that also runs standalone) should be out this week. It kills everything out there."
http://www.rig-talk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=37376

http://www.fractalaudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=2383



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Undertaker4 on 2009-10-28 11:38:54

Hmm, from what I read (1) you have to be an Axe-Fx owner already for it to function (totally reasonable); and (2) the additional cost for the vst will be very high (not as high as the Axe but much more than GR or PodFarm).  So it's looking like an investment of 2500-3500 for the vst plugin all told.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by donfrantz on 2009-10-28 11:46:26

No, you won't need to own an Axe to use the VST.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by feedingjoey on 2009-10-28 11:56:43

This reply isn't directed at any one person. It's intended to cover a few comments I've seen.

I don't think some of you are really getting it. Demos do speak louder than words. So why would you trust something that some bonehead threw up for a audio clip or that you watched on a YouTube video.  Just get off your butt and go down to your local dealer, plug into it and play for a while. Hear it with your own ears, feel the response with your own hands and make up your own mind. 

I think someone was looking for an answer to the VST question. Here it is!  I don't know! I don't work for Fractal but my guess is that their pretty interested in selling hardware right now. I promise you I will ask them in January at NAMM. That way we get our answer straight from the horses mouth. No speculation. If you want a really good quality affordable VST, and honestly my best recorded guitar tones come from this. Look at NI Guitar Rig 3. Now that GR4 is out I'll bet you can get 3 for a song! (pun intended)

As for the price of th AX FX. It's not priced for the average guitar player. The AX FX Is designed for a market of people with a different mind set then those that line 6 targets. The average Line 6 customer isn't going to by one. Period end of story. As for the cost justification. I don't feel comfortable shelling out $500 on a PLASTIC box that I'm going to step on 4-5 nights a week. If you haven't guessed I'm talking about the X3. Funny thing is I'd be more comfortable spending that money on a XT because it's a better chassis. It's going to hold up better to real stage abuse. I've seen several posts around line 6 where guys X3's are failing after about 5 months. So if that's the case. The AX FX would pay for itself in 20 months right? Oh yeah and you wouldn't have 4 different periods of down time. I don't know about you guys but I just can't afford to have a piece of gear fail at a gig. EVER! So I'm not going to be betting my money on line 6 anytime soon. BUT I'm also not buying the AX FX until some time passes and it too, proves it's reliability.

I guess what I'm saying is be smart, do your homework and don't rely on everything you read on the internet. Use your own eyes, ears and hands and form your own opinion. You can only do that by playing the AX FX first hand.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by feedingjoey on 2009-10-28 12:05:28

phil_m wrote:

Sound clips don't change your understanding of basic audio physics. Who shops based on compressed MP3 soundclips anyways?   YOUR hands on YOUR guitar through YOUR rig is the only way you can really test a product.  What you like and why I like may differ.  That's not what I've been writing about.

So true.  We all want the best sounding gear, so we make a hit song, that will in turn be recorded on the best sounding recording equipment we can find, so that in turn will be compressed into an MP3 or ringtone...

That's the whole irony of these discussions to me - we will drive ourselves batty searching for the best guitar tone where most of will do one of the following:

1.  Play in bars or clubs where a big portion of the audience is so drunk, they couldn't tell a guitar tone from a car horn.

2.  Play in churches where they keep the electric guitar so low in mix that no one hears you anyway.

3.  Record songs that get played back on audio streamer on Myspace.

Sometimes I kind of feel like it's comparable to a great winemaker crafting a great Chardonnay, only to have the customer drink it along with a Big Mac.

(I'm not meaning this to be in any way, shape or form to denigrate what you said - I was just using it a springboard)

AMEN BROTHER!

You friggin get it!



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Undertaker4 on 2009-10-28 12:07:34

Sounds like you need the hardware to me...

Wait until you see our GUI.... schweeeeet.

Yes, the pirates are a serious problem. Therefore...

You MUST buy the Axe-PC hardware interface for the product to work. The hardware interface is also your product key. Each one is serialized and locked to your software. The software will NOT run if the interface is not attached to your computer. You don't need to use the interface (i.e. if you're running as a plug-in) but it still needs to be attached. Your computer also needs to be connected to the internet periodically to verify licensing.

I know a lot of people are going to complain about this but we have to do it. A LOT or work went into this product and we need to recoup our investment.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Slingy on 2009-10-28 12:52:17

No I just want to hear Jesse demo it.  When people talk in a holier than thou manner they should be prepared to back it up. The fact that this thread even exists is kinda rude, like me coming over to your house and the first thing out of my mouth is, hey you why dont you get a better tv.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2009-10-28 13:07:03

feedingjoey wrote:


Demos do speak louder than words. So why would you trust something that some bonehead threw up for a audio clip or that you watched on a YouTube video.  Just get off your butt and go down to your local dealer, plug into it and play for a while.

Not to be obstinate, but can you point me to my local Axe-Fx dealer so I can get off my butt, go down there, plug into it and play for a while?



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by fester2000 on 2009-10-28 13:22:27

Karl_Houseknecht wrote:

feedingjoey wrote:


Demos do speak louder than words. So why would you trust something that some bonehead threw up for a audio clip or that you watched on a YouTube video.  Just get off your butt and go down to your local dealer, plug into it and play for a while.

Not to be obstinate, but can you point me to my local Axe-Fx dealer so I can get off my butt, go down there, plug into it and play for a while?

I was tempted to ask about this, but then decided to leave it alone...glad you asked...

Cheers,

Fester2k



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by donfrantz on 2009-10-28 13:42:04

Yes, you need a hardware interface--but that is not the Axe.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2009-10-28 14:33:54

Hey Don,

Glad that Roadstar is still holding up.  I've been following the Axe VST thing for a while now.  Like well over a year.  It was supposed to hit beta about a year ago.  Hopefully this time it's the real deal.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by feedingjoey on 2009-10-28 14:36:33

Karl_Houseknecht wrote:

Not to be obstinate, but can you point me to my local Axe-Fx dealer so I can get off my butt, go down there, plug into it and play for a while?

Ah well No. I don't know where you live. But its sounds like somewhere in Arkansas. Ya know where they got more Huntin' stores than music stores. (that was a joke dude, don't go getting all retarded now) Seriously, that really might be a big problem. I'm lucky enough to be near their "special dealer" (although I've never been there) and I know a few people that own them so I've had lots of play time with them. But by now I would think that there would have to be some stores that have them. Maybe try contacting them and asking where you can go try one. If you can get your hands on one in your area I swear you won't be disappointed.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by feedingjoey on 2009-10-28 14:52:27

Slingy wrote:

The fact that this thread even exists is kinda rude, like me coming over to your house and the first thing out of my mouth is, hey you why dont you get a better tv.

Hehehehhe YEAH and your COUCH sucks too!

Your totally right. But you gotta admit this is prolly the most active thread going on Line 6's site. There just might be a reason for that. If I was management at L6 I'd be watching this thread close. I think this is a good thing for us users. Hopefully it will open some eyes at L6 and they will realize that some of us are actually working pro's who give a crap about what we buy. We also want the company to respond to us when we have issues. Line 6 simply refuses to talk with me about the fact that I can't get distorted tones to cut through the mix in a live situation. My Boss GT Pro and Sansamp PSA-1 never have a problem like that. I just want to know why and what I can do to fix it. L6 is simply refusing to talk to me. So they've really forced my to go look at other products. Truth be told their actions are about to make me buy from their competitor. It's as simple as that.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2009-10-28 15:05:47

feedingjoey wrote:

Ah well No. I don't know where you live. But its sounds like somewhere in Arkansas. Ya know where they got more Huntin' stores than music stores. (that was a joke dude, don't go getting all retarded now) Seriously, that really might be a big problem. I'm lucky enough to be near their "special dealer" (although I've never been there) and I know a few people that own them so I've had lots of play time with them. But by now I would think that there would have to be some stores that have them. Maybe try contacting them and asking where you can go try one. If you can get your hands on one in your area I swear you won't be disappointed.

Well, you're not far off.  I do live in Virginia, but close enough to metro Richmond and DC to have pretty much anything at my disposal.  Sadly, not L.A., where the special store is, right?

It's no big deal.  I've already tried one.  A user in my area was selling theirs and I got to try it out first hand.  It was good, for sure.  But I didn't buy it because, for a modeler, and a used and arguably obsolete one (Standard), it sounded and felt great but didn't give me $1000 more greatness than my current modeler.  Not to mention the money I'd need to fork out for a MIDI controller.

Oh, and before you think I'm harping on price, I just spent somewhere in the neighborhood of $2500 for a couple of all-tube amps and accessories.  I don't mind spending my money on certain things.

Also, it's a rack unit.  I'm not totally averse to that, but if I want a modeler, I want a small package not a rack.  Otherwise I might as well bring my amps and pedalboards.

Someday, Fractal will make a floor unit.  And I'll be all over it.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by DerMetzgermeister on 2009-10-28 16:59:31

feedingjoey wrote:

Line 6 simply refuses to talk with me about the fact that I can't get distorted tones to cut through the mix in a live situation.

To be fair, how exactly do you expect them to address this?

Line 6: "Turn the presence knob 15° up", "Lower the volume of the other guitarist when he is not looking", "We are going to rewrite all our amp algorithms until you are clearly heard" "Sit tight, we're sending one of our engineers to work your desk at your next gigs"...



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by feedingjoey on 2009-10-28 17:06:02

Yeah I'm the same way. I'm not afraid of spending money on the right gear. I haven't played with the standard unit so I can't compare. I've only played with the Ultra. I also don't know what you played it through but that makes a big difference. It works pretty damn nice with my Tech 21 Power Engine and live my buddy runs it direct into the board. The PA consists of a Yamaha 01V96 into JBL MP418SP subs and Yamaha Club Series V tops. Shure in-ears for monitoring. The end result. No stage volume and KILLER Tone at FOH.  Yes there's more money involved. You do need something to push it through and you certainly need a Midi controller. For me I already own 2 Behringer FCB1010's. Those have proven to be workhorses. I bought 2 so I would have a back up for when I broke the first one. But #1 is still going strong. I've even done the phantom power and UNO mods to them. They work great. However the AX FX I menton above is controlled by a Roland FC 300. If your a working musician and you already own everything else you need then yeah you should be able to justify the money if it truly sounds that good to your ears. My experience with the ultra was that is really was superior to any of my line 6 gear. I've had the good fortune of being able to A/B them side by side. As for putting it all in a floorboard.  I've never been a big fan of that. I can't tell you how many times my FCB 1010 has been submerged in beer from some stumbling drunk a-hole. That and the fact that I don't really like the idea of stomping on my processor all night long has actually kept me away from those type of units. They are convenient and I bought by XT with that in mind. Grab a guitar and the XT and head off to practice. The XT was cheap enough that I was willing to risk it and buy a couple of back ups. But if you've read my other posts you'll know that I can't get the distorted tones to cut through the band mix. So It's never ended up hitting the stage and it was too problematic for practice. I currently use a Boss GT PRO. I actually feel safer having it in the rack. I put it in with the rest of the PA gear and hard wire it in. I have to bring the PA anyway. For for me personally I show up with 2 guitars, the FCB and my Mic stand. I pull a midi and a mic cable to the front of the stage and I'm done in under 5 minutes. I never have worry about some idiot spilling or falling into my processor. So what do I practice with if the GT 's in the PA rack? Ah Ha! Believe it or not I break out a Laptop with NI Guitar Rig 3 Kontrol edition and use my Power engine or what ever is at the studio. It works great. I'd gig with it but if you think I'm paranoid about floor processors don't even get me started on Laptops!.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by feedingjoey on 2009-10-28 18:13:01

DerMetzgermeister wrote:

To be fair, how exactly do you expect them to address this?

Line 6: "Turn the presence knob 15° up", "Lower the volume of the other guitarist when he is not looking", "We are going to rewrite all our amp algorithms until you are clearly heard" "Sit tight, we're sending one of our engineers to work your desk at your next gigs"...

I'm glad you asked DerMetzgermeister. For starters they could reply to one of my many posts, they could respond to my emails, they could take my up on my offer to come see them in Calabasas. They could open up a line of communication. They haven't done that. All I'm asking for is someone at line 6 to have an intelligent conversation with me about the issue.  I did actually talk to someone in tech support. He said and I quote "so your clean patches cut through fine but your distorted tones don't. I recommend that you dial back the drive in your patches". To which I replied " so you want me to take my distorted patches and make them clean and then that will solve the problem? to which he replied "YES!" I might expect that kind of answer from India but not Simi Valley.

Ya know DER. My band is 4 piece. Guitar, Bass, Drums, and Keys. It doesn't matter which one of the guys is playing with me. If any one of them starts playing while I am playing by myself it's almost like I turn off my amp. My sound just straight up disappears. Now, I know what your thinking DER. Your thinking WOW that feedingjoey is a real  D******ss. He has no clue of  what he's doing. Ok fine. Then since your so smart DER. Answer this simple Question.

Why does this NOT happen when I use these products?

Boss GT PRO

NI Guitar Rig 3

SansAmp PSA 1

Boss GT-8

Fractal AX FX ULTRA

Answer this too. Why Does this Happen with?

POD XT LIVE

POD 2.0

Flextone I and II

AxSys 212

Bottom line DER is that I've tried all these devices in dozens of rehearsal rooms with dozens of amps and yes I've done all the tweaks that line 6 recommends. As a matter of fact I've tried every frigging setting possible. I've wasted more studio time than Yoko Ono and Linda McCartney combined. The NON Line 6 products work fine. Yea the tone might be a little different through different amps but so what, it's just practice. At least you can hear me.This isn't a new issue for line 6. It's plagued them since the beginning. Lots of guys chalk it up to Fletcher Munson but honestly I do think it is the algorithms. So if you want to know why line 6 won't address the issue it's because they'd have to admit that there IS a problem and the fix is a very costly redesign of their whole structure. That's not gonna work out real well for them now is it. The simple solution is to just keep sweeping feedingjoey under the carpet.

So if any of you would like to make a BIG GIANT FOOL out of me, all you have to do is just show me how to make my line 6 gear cut through the mix with a distorted patch. I'll shut up and go away. Oh yeah make sure it works in every room every time with out having to tweak anything. Ya know, just make it work like the other guys stuff.

So wadda ya got DER? What's the solution?



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2009-10-28 18:42:24

feedingjoey wrote:

make sure it works in every room every time with out having to tweak anything. Ya know, just make it work like the other guys stuff

Well, that's going to be a tall order.  Becuase even my amps need slight tweaking from venue to venue.

Regarding the Ultra vs Standard, I doubt there's a difference in sound quality between the two.  Only difference might be the number of effects blocks you can run at once, and some of the extras that isn't in the code for the Standard.

Also, re: floor units.  I only use a modeler at church.  Nobody there to spill beer on it.  Would be a riot if there was!  At clubs, we rely on a certain amount of stage volume, so a pure direct setup is out of the question.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by feedingjoey on 2009-10-28 20:37:04

Karl_Houseknecht wrote:

Well, that's going to be a tall order.  Becuase even my amps need slight tweaking from venue to venue.

Regarding the Ultra vs Standard, I doubt there's a difference in sound quality between the two.  Only difference might be the number of effects blocks you can run at once, and some of the extras that isn't in the code for the Standard.

Also, re: floor units.  I only use a modeler at church.  Nobody there to spill beer on it.  Would be a riot if there was!  At clubs, we rely on a certain amount of stage volume, so a pure direct setup is out of the question.

Not really. From Venue to Venue I tweak the EQ on the PA. Not individual instruments. Here's how it's supposed to work. Or how I did / do it with the GT PRO etc. You dial in the tones at home, you go to the studio and practice, you make some notes at practice. You go home and make your tweaks from your notes. The next practice you do a dress rehearsal with all your own gear. PA included. You dial the whole band in the PA. Everybody "sets it and forgets it" that way when you show up to a gig the variables are always the same and all you have to do is tweak the PA's EQ to the room.  So with my line 6 gear here's what happens. Dial in the tones at home, go to practice. Distorted tones don't cut through. Fight with amp settings, tweak pod for half hour, waste every ones time, make notes go home and bash head against wall trying to figure out why you don't have the same problem at home alone. Tweak POD again and try to compensate for dropout. Go to another practice, repeat above. Dodge thrown beer bottles from band mates. Plug in GT PRO for kicks, giggles or possible quick fix. Don't have the problem. Band insists you throw away POD and use GT Pro. Never make it to the point of a dress rehearsal with your own PA and the POD because you've had to revert back to your old rig. Bottom Line POD doesn't work and line 6 refuses to address the issue. Solution to problem. Sell pod (for beer money) and buy AX FX.

Sounds like you go to the wrong church . JK!  I use my NI Guitar Rig3  Kontrol edition and my Power Engine at church its the only place I trust that people won't steal my laptop!

Upgrade your PA, Ditch the stage volume and go in ears. It takes a little getting used to but once you get it you'll wonder why it took so long. It's really awesome for small clubs and gigs. Plus you lose the wedges and gain that coveted stage real estate. For special1 time events in big venues (1000 seats or more) I still like a big Marshall



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Kazak9 on 2009-10-28 20:51:17

Hey Guys,

Thought this might be of interest.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjGaMMHlL5k

Chrison the left Axe-Fx direct to Studiolive 16-4-2 -> MacBookPro/Cubase, Ryan on the right Mesa MkIV-> Digitech GSP1101-> direct to Studiolive 16-4-2 -> MacBookPro/Cubase, playing over a backing track.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2009-10-28 21:32:05

feedingjoey wrote:

Upgrade your PA, Ditch the stage volume and go in ears.

If we owned a PA, that'd be okay.  But we hire sound for our gigs, and it's not always the same company.  And honestly, most sound companies around here spend lots of money on FOH and very little on monitoring.  Monitors typically get used for vocals only, and you're lucky if there's enough power for guitars in there.  That's why modelers are generally out.  You're talking 2x12 cabs at a minimum, half stacks preferred.  Stage volume is a must, especially with loud drummer.  And we just don't have the dough for in-ears.  Especially not wireless ones.

Plus, it is FAR more fun this way.

I use in-ears at church and they're...okay.  I usually pop one out and have the sound guy give me a wedge with a little "more me" in it on the side where I'm not wearing a plug.  The Aviom system sounds just a little too sterile for my tastes.  Not enough air moving around.  But it is a useful tool for tailoring your personal mix



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by feedingjoey on 2009-10-28 21:38:52

Actually the most interesting thing about this is that the guy on the left is playing a Variax with a Roland GK3 midi pickup into the AX FX - Now that really ought to spark some conversation here.

Not the best reprensentation of the AX FX tonal qualities though.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by feedingjoey on 2009-10-28 21:57:44

Yeah. No Doubt.  Way more fun to crank up the real amps. If you got sound guys do what ever the hell you want. Make them chase you around the mix all night and solve the problems! Hehehehe

Since we play so much and have our own backline the in ears really simplify things. And since I have a Yamaha 01V96 Digital mixer we all have our own personal monitor mixes. That alone eliminates most of the fights. I did the 1 ear thing at first too, but you get used to it.  My ears are really thanking me too for cutting down on the years of volume abuse. We have so much less gear on stage this way. Bass player uses a Tech 21 SansAmp Bass DI which is like the size of 2 decks of cards MAYBE!. (just for the record he finally ditched his bass pod pro because it did funny frequency things too) Keyboard player uses a couple of DI boxes too. Drummer still delivers Pizza. No Just kidding. He's the pain in the butt. Traditional acoustic kit with 6 mic's. It's pretty funny when we have the FOH down and the Monitors up. All the audience hears is him and we look like freaks playing along! Overall it just makes for way less gear to lug around and way more room on those small bar stages, which is really nice when the drummer has gas.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by phil_m on 2009-10-29 05:53:28

I used those Avioms for a while at church we were at, and while it was kind of nice to be able to craft my own mix, I never got used to the feeling of separation from the other band members and the congregation.  I felt like we were playing in our own little room and there just happened to be people watching us.  They're just like anti-rock.

Now the church I go to is much smaller with a much crappier sound system (we have two monitor mixes, lol), but we have decent stage volume.  It also helps that the musicians are light years ahead of the ones I used to play with.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2009-10-29 06:24:35

Yeah, you really have to be careful with those in-ears.  Anti-rock indeed.  I will sometimes take an amp instead of the modeler just so I get some air moving around on stage.  It's spooky if you're onstage and there are no guitars to be heard.  I honestly dont' know how the singers that don't have in-ears can get along.  The wedges they have up front don't have near the instrument mix that they should.  Ours is a case of too many musicians and not enough cash for more Aviom units.  It really only works on stage if everyone has them.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by feedingjoey on 2009-10-29 10:22:00

I don't really think their anti rock and roll at all. Just about every major touring band uses them. True It only really works well if everyone in the band has them. The biggest thing that people forget to do is add an ambient Mic on the stage that you point at the audience. That way you can hear them. Believe it or not we can even turn towards it and talk to each other without the audience hearing. We keep the drummer on a traditional kit which helps get that air moving around. We also keep the mains and subs somewhat close to us so you can still feel the rumble of the subs. You really appreciate it when you don't have to lug all those wedges and big amps around. And besides isn't that the whole point of the Modeling thing? Don't get me wrong I still love plugging into my JCM 800 and fully cranking it. Nothing that compares to that. And while I admit that truly is rock and roll you can still cast a wicked voodoo spell on an audience when your wearing in ears.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by feedingjoey on 2009-10-29 10:49:01

WE INTERRUPT THIS THREAD TO ASK A VERY IMPORTANT QUESTION..............

Hey Guys!

Has anyone seen DerMetzgermeister? Ya know, I don't recall him ever answering my question.

Hey DER... Why don't you come out from behind your cubicle at Line 6 and play?

For those of you watching on your local broadcast, I want you all to notice what happens when the question is asked... "Why don't the distorted patches in my GT PRO and SANSAMP PSA 1 drop out of the mix like they do with my XT Live?"   as you can see, People suddenly disappear. Especially those employed by Line 6.

PLEASE MAKE A NOTE OF THAT!

Thank you for watching. We now return you to your regular programming.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Undertaker4 on 2009-10-29 11:53:00

Not directly on point, but I just got Guitar Rig 4 Pro last night; I haven't spent much time with it yet but I thought it may be interesting to hear 2 clips, one with PODFarm and one with GR4:

http://home.comcast.net/~bmayberry/PYU1.mp3

href="http://home.comcast.net/~bmayberry/PYU2.mp3">http://home.comcast.net/~bmayberry/PYU2.mp3

Thelead guitar was recorded dry; the backing track is someone else's.  I tried to play high/low notes to give an overall impression of the sound, and  I tried to match up the levels and virtual amps/cabs as much as I could but they are really different animals.  I also obviously have much more experience with PODFarm but don't profess to be good at either modellers or guitar playing!

Oh yeah, I won't label one or the other because I am interested in what people think before saying which is which.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by feedingjoey on 2009-10-29 12:07:53

I don't have either GR 4 or Pod Farm. But I do have GR 3 and a pod XT live.

So #1 sounds more like what I would get out of GR3 and #2 Sounds more like what I would get from the pod. Both recordings sound good. #1 sounds more " tube ampish" to my ears.  I'd love to have you tell me #1 came from pod farm. Then I'd kick myself for not grabbing that free down load.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by spaceatl on 2009-10-29 12:08:48

My gosh this thread is worse than FIZZ!



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by feedingjoey on 2009-10-29 12:20:42

You drank FIZZ?  !!!!!



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by DerMetzgermeister on 2009-10-29 12:55:54

feedingjoey wrote:

WE INTERRUPT THIS THREAD TO ASK A VERY IMPORTANT QUESTION..............

Hey Guys!

Has anyone seen DerMetzgermeister? Ya know, I don't recall him ever answering my question.

Hey DER... Why don't you come out from behind your cubicle at Line 6 and play?

For those of you watching on your local broadcast, I want you all to notice what happens when the question is asked... "Why don't the distorted patches in my GT PRO and SANSAMP PSA 1 drop out of the mix like they do with my XT Live?"   as you can see, People suddenly disappear. Especially those employed by Line 6.

PLEASE MAKE A NOTE OF THAT!

Thank you for watching. We now return you to your regular programming.

First, I'm not a Line 6 employee and never was one.

And I think you are confusing things here. I never said that I have the solution, and I didn't even imply that Line 6 is the best modeler or whatever.

My question and all I wanted to know was "How do you expect Line 6 to address your particular issues?"

That's my point. Being realistic, you are one dissatisfied costumer with a general problem that cannot be linked to specific bugs or malfunctions. Let's face it, being imparcial, the "can't cut through the mix" claim is pretty much impossible to address from the point of a developer. It can be anything, frequency masking, too much reverb/delay, too much distortion, etc... It's almost like the "workflow" complaints with DAWs. Now, you say that you don't have that problem with any other modeler. From a consumer to another; I think the solution is very, very simple and you know that.

That said, I really don't like your tone, your attitude towards me or the implications you are making so I'm retiring from this thread. If you want to scream from the roof tops that you won the argument and that I'm a coward, a Line 6 fanboi/employee/lackey or wathever then, by all means do it.

I used to get into flame wars and losing my temper over meaningless arguments about meaningless things on internet and such. What a waste of my time. Sorry to dissapoint you. Bye.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Undertaker4 on 2009-10-29 13:14:58

Thanks for listening, Joey.  Two more clips, this time blues, same deal:

http://home.comcast.net/~bmayberry/RB1.mp3

href="http://home.comcast.net/~bmayberry/RB2.mp3">http://home.comcast.net/~bmayberry/RB2.mp3

Iwill say that GR4 is using MUCH more processing power than PodFarm.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by spaceatl on 2009-10-29 13:48:01

No way I can drink all 20 pages of this!!!



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Undertaker4 on 2009-10-29 14:12:49

FWIW, here is the original clip's backing track and dry guitar track if anyone is interesting in reamping:

http://home.comcast.net/~bmayberry/BT.mp3

href="http://home.comcast.net/~bmayberry/Dry.mp3">http://home.comcast.net/~bmayberry/Dry.mp3

(yesposting a dry clip is quite embarrasing)



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by HeavyChevy on 2009-10-29 14:13:58

Let's face the facts here boys and girls.......

We have one Line6 power user who uses no Line6 products in a live setting any more, other than in church........

We have another power Line6 user who is apparently selling off his cache of quality guitars (not counting the junk Ibanez) in order to acheive Line6 modeling tone bliss !!!

A third Line6 power user uses a tube pedal in front of his L6 floorboard (made by former L6 employees of another newer company) in order to "correct" his tone / sound / FEEL !!!

What's wrong with this picture ?



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2009-10-29 14:29:54

HeavyChevy wrote:

We have one Line6 power user who uses no Line6 products in a live setting any more, other than in church........

Let's set the record straight there, Chevy.  I don't use any Line6 products at church either.  So it'd be a stretch to call me a Line6 power user at all.  If you were referring to me, that is.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by phil_m on 2009-10-29 14:45:55
A third Line6 power user uses a tube pedal in front of his L6
floorboard (made by former L6 employees of another newer company) in
order to "correct" his tone / sound / FEEL !!!

Also, if this is talking about me (I did use to use a Damage Control Liquid Blues with my XTL/X3L), it no longer really applies either.  I haven't used the X3L live in a quite a while simply because I'm not in a situation where I go direct right now.  I also wouldn't say that I used that pedal to "correct" anything on the X3L anymore than I use an overdrive pedal to correct any other amp I use.

Currently, I the M13 is the main piece of Line 6 gear I use. I sold my Spider Valve.  It wasn't really that I had anything against that amp other than I just realized I was using only two or three patches 95% of the time.  I just have decided that for the way I play, having less options in the way of amp tones actually works better for me.  I prefer using different outboard effects and going that route.

So, things change.  It's not a big deal.  I still like Line 6 stuff in general.  I just use it in different ways.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by feedingjoey on 2009-10-29 14:46:12

DerMetzgermeister wrote:

First, I'm not a Line 6 employee and never was one.

Good to know, but you act like one.

And I think you are confusing things here. I never said that I have the solution, and I didn't even imply that Line 6 is the best modeler or whatever.

I'm not confused at all. And you do imply in this response that you do have the solution. It's VERY VERY simple. Isn't that what you said?

My question and all I wanted to know was "How do you expect Line 6 to address your particular issues?"

I answered that. I expect some sort of communication, even if it's them telling me to "F" off. As a paying customer I deserve a honest response. And Yes if it turns out to be an algorithm problem I expect them to fix it even if it means redesigning from the ground up.

That's my point. Being realistic, you are one dissatisfied costumer with a general problem that cannot be linked to specific bugs or malfunctions. Let's face it, being imparcial, the "can't cut through the mix" claim is pretty much impossible to address from the point of a developer. It can be anything, frequency masking, too much reverb/delay, too much distortion, etc... It's almost like the "workflow" complaints with DAWs.

I am being realistic. It is a specific bug. I'm not the only one having the problem. It's a very common complaint. As a matter of fact FAR too common. I agree it could be some sort of frequency masking. Hell it could have everything to do with the difference between full range and guitar specific speakers. The issue probably is along these lines. Effects like Reverb and Delay aren't even in the picture when this occurs. Take a straight Marshall model don't put anything on it. Turn up the gain until the amp distorts, yes heavy distortion, but we're not talking Gain on 10, more like 7 or 8. Just like you would on a real amp. You play and it sounds great. The band kicks in and noboby can hear you. Don't tell me to turn up the volume. Don't you think that's the first thing I'd try? Yes this is a legit problem that a developer can address. I have had in length discussions about the issue with the developers at Tech 21 NYC. They will talk to their customers.

Now, you say that you don't have that problem with any other modeler.

No I didn't say that. I gave you a specific list of modelers that don't have the same issue. The Digitech RP14D has the EXACT same problem. After selling that I went to Line 6 starting with the AxSys212 and worked my way through all the Flextones and the POD. All had the same problem as the Digitech Product. That's when I finally gave up and went to the PSA 1 (that's when those conversations with the developers took place). Problem Solved by simply plugging in. I only tweaked for tone sculpting. Then I went to the GT PRO because it had 2 DSP Processors. It too works great. I bought a XT Live to pair with my Variax based on the fact that line 6 now has hardware that is supposed to address the frequency issue. E.G. The Output Mode System. Now if there wasn't a problem to begin with why would line 6 add this feature to their new gear?

From a consumer to another; I think the solution is very, very simple and you know that.

Well that says it all You might be a consumer, but don't put me in that class. I am a working professional. You should stick with consumer electronics and I'll stick to professional audio components. Maybe the solution really is that Simple. I must have been stupid to buy a comsumer electronics grade of product. If that ain't it then please tell me what the hell this very very simple solution is because really, I don't know.

That said, I really don't like your tone, your attitude towards me or the implications you are making so I'm retiring from this thread. If you want to scream from the roof tops that you won the argument and that I'm a coward, a Line 6 fanboi/employee/lackey or wathever then, by all means do it.

Well if you don't like getting attitude, tone or implications then perhaps you shouldn't start S**T. I didn't ask for your opinion did I? As I recall you just chimed in with a WAY crappier attitude towards me. If you poke the snake you better be able to back it up or expect to get bit. You got bit. End of story.

I used to get into flame wars and losing my temper over meaningless arguments about meaningless things on internet and such. What a waste of my time. Sorry to dissapoint you. Bye.

You did dissapoint me. Apology accepted.

So for those of you who think my ranting about this issue has nothing to do with this thread. I'm here because this issue is making me consider purchasing a AX FX. Not that My Boss and SansAmp don't work great, they do. I'm looking to take it to the next level and I thought the XT Live was going to do that for me. I was sadly mistaken. Believe me, I'd much rather get this POD working than shell out $2000. So if anyone has some good legitimate suggestion, by all means please bring them on.

FJ.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by wardick on 2009-10-29 15:05:50

Heck all that ranting and stuff....  I though you already had an Axe-Fx.  Perhaps someday if you own one you can spell it correctly.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Undertaker4 on 2009-10-29 15:07:54

I know nothing about what I speak, but have you tried to figure out what frequencies are cutting through on some pieces of equipment but not others?  Like using a spectrum analyzer to anaylze the tones that "cut through" then applying eq when it doesn't?  Sorry, shooting in the dark here...



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by spaceatl on 2009-10-29 15:15:21

Nothing at all...

I have used Line 6 for a while...I have always had other gear to supplement Line 6 to get it closer where I need it...But alas, the tone chase will never end...I know this very well...



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by HeavyChevy on 2009-10-29 15:16:23

Hey BLT  !!!!

Share us that thar patch !!!  While you are at it, howz 'bout that Marshall patch from two years ago?



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by spaceatl on 2009-10-29 15:37:15

Nothing I can suggest...

I have an XT bean in my shortboard case and I like it for what I use it for...rig spare, practice and scratch tracking...Sure it has limitations...But I can get it to do what I need it to do...

If you can't get what you need or even something close to what you need out of an XT then what are you wasting your time for? Oh look, you wasted my time with this also...When you start picking The Meateaters post apart with red text and bold endings there is really something wrong with that...or you are just a Gen Y...And I guess your tone is to be expected...Just my take...



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2009-10-29 16:39:57

feedingjoey wrote:

I'm here because this issue is making me consider purchasing a AX FX.

By all means, purchase one.  It sounds great, and it sounds like you're asking for justification for buying one.  If your POD doesn't do it for you, get the Axe.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Undertaker4 on 2009-10-29 17:24:22

Well anyway, track GR4 was the 1st and 2nd one above.  Thanks for the one person guessing! 



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by amgamg on 2009-10-29 18:10:26

Well if this guy is such a "Pro" why doesnt he take it up with Artist Relations!

What a blow hard!



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Crusty_Old_Rocker on 2009-10-29 18:47:55

A lot of what I have experienced over 33 years of playing is that many lead guitarists rely on harsh EQing to drive a heavily distorted guitar through the mix whilst attempting to play rhythm (a symptom of the '80s).  What I am getting at is that when soloing, they have their volume up and they slice through the mix (and the ears of anyone listening) then when that same overly distorted tone is backed off it doesn't cut through.  To get that tone to make its way through the mix, they tend to elevate the top end, sometimes to a ridiculously "ice pick" level.  This technique can turn any song into an '80s hair metal power balad or spandex c0ck rock classic.

It would be interesting to see a spectrum analysis of the tones that are being used.  I know that the Boss distorted tones are generally harsher than those of the POD, which would certainly help them cut through any mix.

I would recommend you try out a POD X3 Pro with the FBV (built like a tank) foot controller.  A few things to note are:

1. The overall tone and response on the POD X3 is noticably better on the POD X3 than the PODxt series - this will help cut through.

2. Many guitarists use a combination of distorted and cleaner tones to really push through the mix - the dual tone on the POD X3 will do this.

3. It might also make more sense to compare the current product offerings from each manufacturer rather than superceded models from some.

Anyway, the fact remains that there are professional guitarists who have no problems getting the POD to cut through the mix when gigging.  It would be worth asking why some are able to achieve this while others aren't?  If the hardware is actually working in this application for some and not others then the issue can be narrowed down to 2 possibilities.  The first possibility is that there is something technically wrong with specific unit that is not working properly, in which case it would need to be repaired.  The second possibility is that the user of the hardware has not been able to get it to work effectively, in which case the user would need to learn how to get the hardware to perform successfully the way that others have achieved.

There is a simple, logical way to determine which of the 2 posibilies applies.  If the user were to try another POD and gain a satisfactory result, then clearly the problem was with the specific device being used.  Once repaired then it will perform satisfactorally.  If, however, the same result occurs using other PODxt Live units then the issue must be in the use or application of the hardware.  If the latter is the case, then the user may want to find out from the professionals who do successfully use the hardware how to get the device to perform they way they do.

Just one other thing.  I have lost count of the numer of lead guitarists I have helped get heard in the mix just by backing off their distortion a tad.

Cheers,

Crusty



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2009-10-30 06:02:56

Crusty_Old_Rocker wrote:

This technique can turn any song into an '80s hair metal power balad or spandex c0ck rock classic.

COOL!!!!!



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by feedingjoey on 2009-10-30 10:32:13

Your Welcome Undertaker4. You did a good job on those and it was a useful thing for all of us in this thread. Too bad so many ignored it. I'm glad I got it right. I actually nailed the second one too but was pre occupied so I couldn't respond right away. Sorry

Yes I agree that GR does suck up processor power. But it obviously also sounds much better. Even thought that is the case it is really stable. I have a dedicated laptop to run it on but it is by no means a powerful computer. IBM Thinkpad T30 with a Gig of Ram. That's really a crappy computer to be running it on. But truth be told it's never crashed on me. I gig with that rig at church and it works great. The sound guy who is also a guitar player is just amazed at how well it sounds. I use the Variax with it too!

I'm sure your keeping up with all the drama in my posts and you might be wondering why I don't just use Guitar Rig. For all the rest of you reading along I suggest you actually listen to Undertaker4's samples. They hands down prove that GR sounds WAY better than Line 6. I'm sure that statement alone will cause all kinds of trauma in this thread. But whatever. You guys can spin up all kinds of crap to debunk undertaker4's efforts. Again Whatever. At this point I don't think anybody really needs to hear those opinions. If you can't resist the need to shoot Undertaker4's efforts full of holes just download the Free demo of GR and create your own A/B test like he he did. The end result will speak for itself.

Back to my point.  I gig a lot in different situations (I'll clarify that in another post because the issue was addressed by someone else) I'm just not convinced a computer based solution is the answer. Computers crash. Mine hasn't yet but I don't really want to risk it happening during a highly paid event. If NI had a hardware based solution I'd be all over it. Like I've said in my other posts. I'm not afraid to spend the money. I also do my homework, I post in threads like this and try and get useable feedback, I go to NAMM all 4 days every year and walk the entire floor. You won't see me standing in line to get Yngwie's autograph. I'm there on business. I search the internet and I also talk with a lot of industry guys to see what their doing. I've been watching a product for nearly a year now that might be the answer. It's targeted at keyboards players. Receptor is a hardware solution for using plugins live. It costs $2000+. I also play keyboards so this might be a really cool thing to have. The Receptor guys say it handles GR without a problem. So I will be taking a good look at that as well.

Thanks again for your efforts Undertaker4. They didn't fall on deaf ears.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by DerMetzgermeister on 2009-10-30 10:37:27

feedingjoey wrote:


Well that says it all You might be
a consumer, but don't put me in that class. I am a working
professional. You should stick with consumer electronics and I'll stick
to professional audio components. Maybe the solution really is that
Simple. I must have been stupid to buy a comsumer electronics grade of
product. If that ain't it then please tell me what the hell this very
very simple solution is because really, I don't know.

Thanks for putting me in my place. I'm very upitty sometimes and forget to respect my superiors.

From one lowly-as-dirt consumer to an exalted proffessional: Your royal highness, please make one of your vassals dispose of that worthless POD and order.. no! Demand!!  Demand what your privileged status deserves: Axe-FX Ultra.

Everyone knows that learning (ugh!) how to EQ, compress, tweak effects, match heads and cabs, and all that ignoble and cumbersome manual labor are reserved for the lower castes. That scores of those wretched nobodies achieve guitar sounds with their laughable PODs that are liked and even admired by their condemned brethren means nothing. Let them have cake.

Forgive this untouchable, your majesty.

PD: Hopefully someone with half a sense of humor will appreciate my efforts.

PD 2: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/consumer



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by feedingjoey on 2009-10-30 10:43:59

Karl_Houseknecht wrote:

By all means, purchase one.  It sounds great, and it sounds like you're asking for justification for buying one.  If your POD doesn't do it for you, get the Axe.

Sorry Karl you couldn't be more off on this. I'm here trying to justify KEEPING and USING my Pod XT Live. I'm looking for answers to my issue. My XT and Variax "Do it" for me very much, as long as I've got head phones on. The clean patches are amazing. The problem is simply the distorted patches both Live and recorded. Recorded they sit in the mix fine but they just don't sound as good as what I hear in the cans. That could simply be me sucking as a recording guy.

If I can't achieve my goals with the Line 6 solution then I'm going to need to buy something else. Axe FX is a top contender if it comes to that.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by amgamg on 2009-10-30 10:49:13

Might also want to point out that a "Professional" would probably just let his or her guitar tech work with the soundman and find the ultimate solution!

Anyway what would I know...hey what kinda cake was that anyway...want some coffee?



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by feedingjoey on 2009-10-30 11:54:57

DerMetzgermeister wrote

Thanks for putting me in my place. I'm very upitty sometimes and forget to respect my superiors.

From one lowly-as-dirt consumer to an exalted proffessional: Your royal highness, please make one of your vassals dispose of that worthless POD and order.. no! Demand!!  Demand what your privileged status deserves: Axe-FX Ultra.

Everyone knows that learning (ugh!) how to EQ, compress, tweak effects, match heads and cabs, and all that ignoble and cumbersome manual labor are reserved for the lower castes. That scores of those wretched nobodies achieve guitar sounds with their laughable PODs that are liked and even admired by their condemned brethren means nothing. Let them have cake.

Forgive this untouchable, your majesty.

PD: Hopefully someone with half a sense of humor will appreciate my efforts.

PD 2: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/consumer

Ah.......DUDE.....did you read your own link?

"One that utilizes economic goods"

Thanks for making my point. Are these things not made in China?

IF you actually went back and read my posts you'd know that I started my Line 6 adventure with the AxSys212. So I don't know if you know how long that's been around but I've been tweaking and EQ'ing and legitimately trying to resolve this issue for YEARS. I'll Bet I have more time in the trenches working on this problem that you have as a line 6 owner. YEAH I also asked for help from sound guys and guitar techs that I know. They're statement to me was to stop playing with this toy and get some professional gear. Honesty that's what they told me.

So I still think you didn't answer the question. But If your simple solution was that I need to get off my a** and "Learn" how to start combining heads and cabs and applying EQ and bla bla bla bla bla. Don't worry I pretty much know what I'm doing. Occasionally (like now) I can't figure something out or make it work how the manufacturer says it will. So I ask for help. So DER that ship sailed a long time ago. What do think I've been doing for the past several years? Picking my nose and wiping boogers all over the knobs?

So there's no more confusion. I CAN MAKE THIS WORK with ONE rig that NEVER CHANGES. Yes I have combined Heads Cabs and EQ and Tweaked till my ears Bleed. Making it work with one rig was really as simple as cranking the amp.  Turning the clean patches channel volume WAY down in the XT (which then sacrifices tone) and Cranking the Distorted Patches WAY Up. Then you get some sort of balance But your not Cutting through the mix your FORCING your way through the mix. Umm... that works but it's not really optimal now is it?

Well if I got it to work then WHAT'S THE PROBLEM?

On occasion I have to take this rig out of my perfect environment that I spent HOURS tweaking and making work. I then have to plug it into a different amp and PA which means in most cases I have to start ALL OVER AGAIN.

You simply can't roll into a gig and go oh yea could you guys give me and hour to reconfigure my rig so it works with your stuff. You pull that crap and you'll never get hired back. You need to roll in, plug in and play!

LINE 6 implies everywhere that you can do this. So why can't I?

If I was some guy hiding behind a SlipKnot mask playing the same black metal stuff every weekend in some pay to play club, this one rig solution might work for me. But that's not the case.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by feedingjoey on 2009-10-30 13:37:13

amgamg wrote:

Might also want to point out that a "Professional" would probably just let his or her guitar tech work with the soundman and find the ultimate solution!

Anyway what would I know...hey what kinda cake was that anyway...want some coffee?

OK amgamg since you want to play too lets get you straightened out.

I never said I was a ROCK STAR. Your confusing that with working professional. I never said or implied that I was better than anyone else here. I never claimed to be the greatest guitar player to grace the cover circuit. I never said that I was an endorsed line 6 artist.  I have said and I maintain that I am a working Professional. That is all I have ever said about my skills. For those of you who don't know what "working professional" means I'll clear it up for you. I make my living by playing for money. I don't really care who I play for or where I play. I just need to make money. So I take whatever gig comes my way. I'm a music whore you might say. I'm like that handy man ad in the back of the newspaper only my tools are a guitar and some sort of amp.

The definition of professional is 2 a : participating for gain or livelihood in an activity or field of endeavor often engaged in by amateurs. Here's the link for you doubters. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/professionalIn case you didn't notice the key word there is LIVELIHOOD.

I have several of my own steady work Bands. 1 is a cover band that plays nothing but bars. 1 is a higher level band that plays concerts in the park, corporate events and the occasional casino, one we are still putting together a third by request of an agent. That will be a traveling band doing nothing but higher paid Casino and Corporate gigs. I was also sought out and hired to play in a church band. Yes, that's right, I take money to play at church. I have to pay the rent and occasionally maybe eat too. The church understands that so they pay me. Just for the record, I didn't ask for the money it was offered.

So as you can see because of the way I make my living my rig has to be very flexible. If somebody calls me to sub I need to grab my gear and go, set up and play at not be a hassle for those who hire me. Now if I'm fussing around with my XT every time I show up to play with some band that I may have never played with before, how good for business do you think that's going to be for me.

YEAH, It's not really going to be good for me! So fussing about with gear simply isn't an option.

Amgamg. Here's a little peek into the music business for you. The Line 6 artist relations manager deals with Line 6 endorsed artists. He doesn't want to talk to me. I'm not a line 6 endorsed artist. I have actually tried to get him to respond to me. He simply won't. The Line 6 Product manager would be the more correct guy to address this issue. He too won't respond to me. As a matter of fact I've tried for years to get someone at line 6 to have a conversation with me about this subject. With the exception of 1 tech support phone guy who gave me totally useless information. NO ONE at line 6 will have this discussion with me. Not even at NAMM. As a matter of fact they've moved their booth into a private suite and unless you're a buyer they won't even let you in!

Because I'm not a "ROCK STAR" I don't have a personal guitar tech or a sound guy. I do know a few though and yes they've come and seen the problem first hand. They also walked away scratching their heads. And they too recommend that I just don't use it. The funny thing is that literally 2 weeks ago I had the guy that does all the work on my guitars come to a practice. I was showing him all the great things I could do with the Variax and alerted tunings, matching tones etc, etc. He was totally blown away. He actually told me I should be a demonstrator for line 6. Then he heard the me play with the band and he was like Yeah that things great. Too bad it doesn't work. It was comedy.

OK so hopefully were clear on what I do for a living and why I call myself a professional. Any more confusion you have I'll be happy to answer. But I would prefer you ask them as questions rather than just trying to run me over with the bus.  It need it to be made really clear that you and DER drew first blood here. I'm not here to make enemies. I'm here to get answers. I'm here to try and use my line 6 gear in a productive way. So If you and guys like DER have some useful suggestions that actually might help me. I'm very open to what you have to say. Don't assume I'm stupid. I've been at this for 30 years. I know a thing or two about what I say, HOWEVER I'm not perfect and that is why I seek advise.

For everyone else. No doubt I am frustrated with Line 6 and Der hit that square on the head. I am in fact an unhappy customer. So I've turned to the Line 6 community for some help and advise. Some of you have tried to do that and  I thank you for your efforts. On the other hand some of you have just been....well..... let's say "Line 6 ish"



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by amgamg on 2009-10-30 13:45:56

So you consult a guitar tech and a soundman...to bad you dont have your own steadies btw...

Your told not to mess around with this gear...but you insist on doing so anyway....

You must have a gig ready rig at all times or risk being sacked...

So here you are fiddeling around although you have and will spend the money on proper gear ...

All the while ticking off those you consider somehow beneath you !

Even worse...nothing anyone suggest is good..cause you already know anyway....

After reading all your post I  understand your problem completely!

Your a self absorbed ...ego driven...drama queen!

If I were at this for years as you claim..I'd have bought a different rig after the first fifteen minutes considering what you claim to have at stake !

So calm down sweetie...and give some money to the Fractal man!



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by timowens on 2009-10-30 13:56:47

"1 is a higher level band that plays concerts in the park, corporate events and the occasional casino" Would that happen to be in the Vegas area?

This thread is so large it is just about impossible to keep track of what is being asked and what is being said, and ultimately your question doesn't seem to apply to the original topic anyway. Why don't you start your own thread, you might have better luck.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by feedingjoey on 2009-10-30 16:06:11

Wow that was really helpful. THANKS. So guess I owe you some answers. I mean since you asked so nice and all.

Well yeah I did put together another rig pretty much right after the tech guys told me I was wasting my time. I won't go into the different variations of rigs. I already did that.

But just for the record the 2 rigs that I can roll into any gig without getting "sacked" are:  the GT PRO, an FCB and a Power Engine (if needed). The other consists of Guitar Rig 3 with it's controller and the Power Engine. I only use the GR for the church gig. But again that's all been said before.

So why am I still fiddeling around with line 6?

I had gotten the call to put together this new band. But the catch was that the band had to be top notch. Meaning sound just like the recording, good enough isn't good enough. (if you read my other posts you will understand the design of my other rigs and why they wouldn't be right for this band) So I set off looking for some new solutions. It's been a good long time between the last Flextone I tried and the XT I currently own.  Line 6 kind of acknowledged this "Fletcher Munson " problem existed several years ago and put in some hardware (firmware, software whatever) to counter act the problem. I believe they call it the "Output Mode System". I had run into Doug Bossi at a gig (I think he is a Line 6 endorsed user but I could be wrong, also just for the record I don't really know him, I just met him and had some conversation)  anyway he was using one of the Line 6 Bogner prototypes. We had the conversation about the dropout issue and he knew exactly what I was talking about but he said , "No, I've got no issues like that, they fixed all that. Just wait till you hear this amp". Doug was right I was blown away by that amp. It sounded AMAZING and it cut through like butter. So I'm thinking that my past issues had been resolved finally. So since I had already picked up the Variax for different project a Line 6 solution was looking really good again. I picked up an XT Live because none of the Bogner models work with the Variax like the XT or X3 do. That was important because while we can all play Honky Tonk Woman in standard tuning that just wasn't gonna cut it for this band. With that combo I could hit a patch in the XT change the tuning and pretty much nail that amp tone. I also needed to use altered tunings to suit the ranges of the vocalists. (those are the kind of things I was showing that tech that he was so impressed with) So in theory this line 6 solution is exactly the tool I need. I really want to use it because it would make life so simple. I programmed a bunch of stuff in the headphones at home. Pumped it back through my PA, again at home with out the band. Everything sounded really good. But low and behold we hit the studio and the age old issue popped right back up. So I've been seriously trying to make this new (to me) line 6 product work for about the last 45 days. (and yes I fought with line line 6 from AxSys212 through flextone III that = Years.. all the while gigging with something else) Just for the record my keyboard player who also plays guitar was so blown away by what I was able to do with the new rig he went out and bought the X3. It too does the same thing! I got my hands on a L6 Bogner 212. It works KILLER but it doesn't play nice with the Variax. I can't bring 10 guitars to the gigs and I can't stop to retune every other song.  So I either get this thing working or I gotta go in another direction. I'm Looking at Fender VG Strats and possible using my Variax with the Axe FX or maybe a Roland solution. I'm looking at the Ghost Pickup System and maybe using some of my existing gear. I'm looking around at a lot of things. To my ears the Axe-Fx is really awesome but lets face it, It doesn't solve my problem or fit like a glove (like the Line 6 solution would)

I don't consider anyone here beneith me. Those are your words. As a matter of fact I'm here because I consider you guys to be the experts. You've been activily using the newer generation L6 stuff so you should know way better than me about the line 6 stuff. So sorry if I pissed any of you off.

Yeah it sucks I don't have my own tech's. But then again I'm not a big ego driven rock star wanna be like your trying to make me out to be. Do you have your own techs there rock star?

The only drama being brought on here was brough by you and DER. I just responded to you. Again you started the S***!

So I'm shooting down people by telling them what I've already tried?  mmmm. OK if you say so. You seem to be the alpha male here.

I know you can't resist the urge to call me Sweetie because you obviously swing that way. Not that there's anything wrong with that. Ya know to each his own. But I'm not like that. I play in church remember.

So thanks for your input. I'll file it with the other massive amounts of help you've provided me.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by feedingjoey on 2009-10-30 16:11:28

Vegas on rare occasion. The traveling band will probably do a lot of Vegas. As a matter of fact I think we got a call to do ELKO!  That should be a hoot. That other band does some Indian casinos, but more corporate than anything.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by DerMetzgermeister on 2009-10-30 16:30:48

feedingjoey wrote:


Ah.......DUDE .....did you read your own link?

"One that utilizes economic goods"

Thanks for making my point. Are these things not made in China?

For the love of God... Please tell me that you are simply failing at being ironic. I refuse to believe that you can't understand the definition of "consumer".

Semantics aside, my point was, and still is: Buy the Axe FX. Simple solution.

I did read your posts. Did you? Just act coherently. If you are so adamant about Line 6 gear being so bad then why are you still here? If you need to get the job done then get the tool that get the job done. The Axe-FX is more expensive, so what? If you do something for a living is just common sense to get the better tools you can buy.

I'm getting the suspicion that I'm less attached to Line 6 than you. If my X3 wasn't delivering the goods for me I would simply ditch it instead of posting in a forum and fighting with complete strangers.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by feedingjoey on 2009-10-30 16:47:11

Axe FX isn't the simple solution. Read my last post. Then if you've got some good POSITIVE suggestions on how to achieve that goal lets hear them. Otherwise I believe it was 2 or 3 posts ago that you said you were finished this was a waste of time. I couldn't agree more. These chats with you and amgamg have been nothing but a waste of time. Hopefully we can turn that around. Because as musicians I'd really like to think that you're cool people.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2009-10-30 16:57:55

feedingjoey wrote:

Line 6 kind of acknowledged this "Fletcher Munson " problem existed several years ago and put in some hardware (firmware, software whatever) to counter act the problem. I believe they call it the "Output Mode System".

Okay, here is where I stand up and call you a complete BS artist.  The "Fletcher Munson problem" exists for every single piece of musical gear ever manufactured, not just Line6 amp modelers.  Different output modes have nothing to do with assisting in overcoming the negative aspects of Fletcher Munson and never have.

My assessment is that, despite how professional you would like the rest of us to think you are, you are a musician that blames his inadequacy on his gear instead of his ear.  Go ahead and buy the Axe-Fx.  You will have wasted several thousand dollars because you won't be able to tweak that in right either.  But at least you can complain directly to the head of the company and he'll answer you...with a resounding GET LOST.

Sorry, it was time to stand up and call it like I see it.  This isn't a productive discussion anymore since you joined in.  Nor is it civil.  You do, whether you think it or not, have this superiority complex that comes through in your posts.  We are all somehow beneath you.  And I can stand here with NO LINE6 GEAR and tell you you're full of crap, and absolutely mean it, with no ulterior motive behind my words.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by DerMetzgermeister on 2009-10-30 17:28:24

feedingjoey wrote:

Axe FX isn't the simple solution. Read my last post. Then if you've got some good POSITIVE suggestions on how to achieve that goal lets hear them.

You make very difficult to give any positive suggestion because you come up with a catch to anything we suggest.

-You very clearly stated that you tried anything and everything to make the Line 6 gear work and it doesn't,  and you also say that is not your fault and can't be your fault because you are pro and have years in the bussiness and know your stuff. Logically it's Line 6 gear's fault then. I certainly won't make any suggestion about what I know (very little, I admit it) because surely you'll tell me that you already tried that.

I see that the Axe-FX is not the perfect solution but at one point or another you have to make a compromise.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Undertaker4 on 2009-10-30 17:46:11

I think I read somewhere on here that if Fletcher Munson is causing issues, configure presets while playing at about 85db with the XT Live in order to compensate.

Also some more information here re: post EQ and how that can help with Fletcher - Munson:

http://www.vettaville.nl/vvFletcher%20Munson%20eng.htm



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Matt_J71 on 2009-10-30 17:47:40

joey,

Does your band have a website? Do you have any soundclips or videos posted online? Even some of you playing in church would be cool. Maybe if we could hear you in your band context we could better help make suggestions for how to get your guitar to work in the mix better with your PODxt.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by feedingjoey on 2009-10-30 18:00:02

Hey Karl,

That's cool your entitled to you opinion and I respect that. You're straight up a forward guy and I respect that too. If I've sounded self righteous apoligize to every one this forum. It really wasn't my intention. I do feel strongly about my opinions and experience and if it comes across like that REALLY I TRULY AM SORRY to everyone.

I FULLY ADMIT THAT MY PROBLEM WITH LINE 6 GEAR MIGHT BE ME.  I don't think anything I touch would work if that were the case . BUT none the line 6 gear I touch seems to work so maybe that is the case.

BUT all that aside, and I don't know why I didn't think of this WAY earlier. I have a way for you guys to prove I'm a retard period end of story. I promise I'll be honest because I'll want to share the results.

I truly do want this stuff to work that's why I'm so passionate about it.

All of you who have engaged with me are telling me that you don't experience the same problem that I have. Then the answer is simple.  DER you were right after all. All you guys need to do is send me one of your distorted patches that you know cuts through the mix. Let me load it up and try it. I have a XT Live and a X3. I'm gonna A/B the sounds and setups. So I need to know exactly what your workflow is. What Kind of guitar, what pick ups, what amp, are you in the FX loop or the front etc. I pretty much have the resources available to me to match your setups. So I'm gonna kinda do a little LAB thing and see what works and compare it to my settings. The bottom line is, we, meaning all of us working together as a team, should be able to come up with a real solution. Then we can share those results with the others like me who are to stupid to solve this on thier own.

Wadda think? Can we all play nice?



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2009-10-30 18:14:10

We can play nice, and I'm sorry for going off like that.  And I do accept your apology, and your apologizing makes me think more of you.

However

I won't send you a patch for two reasons:

1.  I don't own a POD anymore.

2.  Patch sharing just plain doesn't work.  Different fingers, guitars, pickups, amplification, etc.  What sound great with one player and his gear most always sounds like crap with someone else playing.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by feedingjoey on 2009-10-30 18:20:25

Matt,

Everything that I could show you has the other rigs. I promise I will record some stuff and with the XT live and show you all. Right now I have to go to work. But I'll puit something together this weekend.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by feedingjoey on 2009-10-30 18:29:45

I appreciate that you don't have the pod anymore.

I agree about the gear and I was really serious that I do have the resources to recreate your rigs. I also agree about the fingers issue but All I'm looking for is the tone to cut through. I'm not looking to recreate exactly what you played. If I can get it to cut through then I can sculpt it to my tastes later.

I will be able to get close enough to see if it's gonna cut through.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by amgamg on 2009-10-30 18:37:29

There ...there...Joey...as it turns out I'm not gay...I thought you were ....and playing in church doesnt mean your not!

Anyway...my whole response to you was simple...deny it as you wish...but you didnt come up with a simple "help me out" kinda point of view....even a blind man reading your post could see that..so go back and check out your attitude....I'll bet I'm not the only one who thinks this of you.

No I'm not a rock star either but at different points in time...yeah...I had people who functioned as techs and took care of me....See the thing is I didnt kid myself or make a big stink of it...it was great having an amp or guitar break and getting it fixed on the spot but truth be known unless you really get that brass ring....your truely two steps over bein a circus clown on the ladder of entertainment and nothing more.

In as much as other gear...I dont think anyone cares what folks wanna try...I dont think anyone is offended over the idea of using Axe/Fx...but this whole "kiss my butt I got a Fractal" is growing old already....if I wanted one I'd buy one. Not to mention there is no WORSE representation to this company than the hard ons with swelled heads yacking how they are great cause of thier gear...sheesh!

In as much as your problems go....maybe you just want to much from any peice of gear...in your situation its gonna be about compromise in some way or another...but ya cant fit a round peg into a square hole...why bother!

I'm back to lurking till another time when I feel strongly cause I'm splitting a gut over the shear silliness of some of these topics!

Or when at such a time I need some help fro line6 guys about the gear...I ask nice..I'm respectful of thier experiences and I've  recieved help more than once!



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by wardick on 2009-10-30 19:55:00

Use your variax with RJ45 cable to PODXT and change your variax patches/tunings, run the TRS cable out of variax and into modeler of your choice that is not Line 6.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by feedingjoey on 2009-10-31 11:02:42

That's exactly the kind of creative work around I was looking for. You seriously just solved the whole issue. Thats exactly what I'm going to do.

Thank you very much. Hopefully someday Line 6 will help me resolve the real issue but since  they've ingnored me since 1999 I won't hold my breath.

Thanks again Wardick.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by John_BlisterTip on 2009-10-31 14:20:15

Matt_J71 wrote:

I agree that the Panama clip is not Mark's best clip, but he says he isn't trying to sound like EVH.

I respect you JBT and I know you are a great player that can get great tones from the POD, but I still think there are sounds that people get with an Axe-Fx that the POD can't get. I think this video is a lot better example of the kind of tones I would like to hear you attempt with a POD:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsuLzFBx9uE

JBT- you might not like this tone, and you might think it is muddy or fuzzy or whatever - but if it is so easy to get that sound with the POD, then I would like to hear you get this exact tone. Don't make excuses like "I don't think it is good" or "just stick a Rat pedal in front of the chunk model" Let's hear you actually post a video or mp3 that sounds like that video.

You challenged all the Axe-Fx users to a shootout, but here is a tone that everyone on this Forum would like to hear you match - so let's see if you can do it. If you can get a POD to sound like this, then I will be amazed and will shut my mouth forever about the Axe-Fx being better.


Hey Matt

No, I understand what your saying about the clip. I made it clear I wasnt commenting on what that player thought --but the comments on this forum that it was utterly awesome. Although Im using a lot of off color humor to whip on the religious Axefx users there are many more normal users who are not so biased. Look, anything I can say couldnt begin to put a dent into all the crap they say about the Pod so what goes around comes around.

About that tone, Matt, thats really not good. Please just concentrate on the tone--and then the room--it cant be separated. It makes it hollow and boxy with 400hz woofing up the actual tone. The Axe can do some really good tones and it is not being represented well with that bad recording...in fact if that is not a camera mic he used then its just about as much bad room sound as you could use. To match that I would have to make my sounds sound worse and mic it through a camera mic(we all know many albums use camera mics ).Or if he used that much room sound--which I find almost impossible--that would be even worse.

I havnt read further than this post yet though--so I'll tell you what....if I dont hear something that has been recorded well---and it must be direct, as I said, because after all that is what a modeler was invented for, I will put up a tone like that one. But thats a disservice to the Axe.

Also I said I need to know what is used---as I dont have all day to scroll through possible amps, pedals, etc.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Matt_J71 on 2009-10-31 15:05:25

JBT - Mark Day's rhythm sound may not be ideal, but I think his lead tone is pretty damn sweet. I am sure that most of us would love to get our PODs to sound so "poorly."

JBT - what about my question about sharing patches? You consider the guys on the Axe-Fx forum to be dicks, but you never share patches or help anyone here get the tones that you tout as "superior" to everyone else. How do you justify that?

Do you just like to get good tones with the POD and then rub everyone's face in it and not share? Or maybe the clips you post aren't done with a POD at all and that is why you can't share the patches?



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by feedingjoey on 2009-11-02 10:36:21

amgamg wrote:

There ...there...Joey...as it turns out I'm not gay...I thought you were ....and playing in church doesnt mean your not!

"I know you are but what am I"  that really made you look like you were 10 years old.

Anyway...my whole response to you was simple...deny it as you wish...but you didnt come up with a simple "help me out" kinda point of view....even a blind man reading your post could see that..so go back and check out your attitude....I'll bet I'm not the only one who thinks this of you.

I actually didn't come to this forum looking for help at all, it just sort of evolved that way because of my comments about L6 products not working right. Yep my attitude kinda sucked and I'm pretty down on line 6. I apoloigized for that. So far I haven't seen you man up to some of your crap. Actually it appears that you just want ot keep bringing it.

No I'm not a rock star either but at different points in time...yeah...I had people who functioned as techs and took care of me....See the thing is I didnt kid myself or make a big stink of it...it was great having an amp or guitar break and getting it fixed on the spot but truth be known unless you really get that brass ring....your truely two steps over bein a circus clown on the ladder of entertainment and nothing more.

I'm not kidding myself at all. I have a job, I'm working on a regular basis. That doesn't make me any better that anyone else. It just a simple fact. This is how I make a living. I'm not making a big stink of it. I'm simply saying this is what I do so this is why I need this stuff to work right. Yea It is Important. To me more so that the average Joe noodling with his guitar at his computer. (not that that isn't important to average Joe)

In as much as other gear...I dont think anyone cares what folks wanna try...I dont think anyone is offended over the idea of using Axe/Fx...but this whole "kiss my butt I got a Fractal" is growing old already....if I wanted one I'd buy one. Not to mention there is no WORSE representation to this company than the hard ons with swelled heads yacking how they are great cause of thier gear...sheesh!

The funny thing is that I haven't heard anyone say how great THEY were because of their gear. I have heard people say how great the Piece of GEAR was. And I never said "kiss my butt I got a Fractal" As a Matter of fact I said I didn't have one. I do have access to one and can play with it pretty much anytime I want. So What? I said people need to try it for themselves. Don't be using what you read in this forum or what you see on Youtube or some recording some guy made to make a judgment. There are way too many factors that can skew those examples. People need to A/ B this thing against their gear for themselves. Period end of story. Yes I realize that may not be the easiest thing to do based on limited places to go try it. I did say that my personal finding was that this device is the best modeler my ears have heard. That my not be true for everyone else.

In as much as your problems go....maybe you just want to much from any peice of gear...in your situation its gonna be about compromise in some way or another...but ya cant fit a round peg into a square hole...why bother!

No I just want what I paid for to work like advertised. I don't think that's asking too much.

I'm back to lurking till another time when I feel strongly cause I'm splitting a gut over the shear silliness of some of these topics!

Or when at such a time I need some help fro line6 guys about the gear...I ask nice..I'm respectful of thier experiences and I've  recieved help more than once!

I have asked countless times nicley (not in this particular forum or actually since I even got this XT Live), When people, such as you, just instantly assume that I am a moron and have no Idea how to set up my gear. I tend to get snippy right back. You drew your conclusions about me having no Idea what my experience was. Then when I explaind what my experience was and how I'd already tried certain things I was labeled Holy than God and told that anything you guys could suggest I would just Shoot down. I certainly didn't shoot down Wardick.

When it comes to Line 6, I've begged, I've written very professional letters asking for help, I made phone calls and written eMails. Line 6 doesn't respond to the issue I've described. I was told by a competitors engineer that line 6 will not respond to me EVER. If they do they will be admitting that there is a problem in the design that needs to be addressed. I'm not the only guy complaining about this issue. In the "Old" days this was pretty much all anybody talked about. There are thousands like me. I don't care if you believe me or not. If you do your homework you will find what I say to be the truth.

There is no need for you to reply to this. I've not asked for your input on anything. I've taken Wardicks advise as a temporary fix. The XT will become an expensive place to store my Variax settings so I can recall them via midi. After my experience here and with Line 6 in general I believe I will take a closer look at solutions that have nothing to do with Line 6. Even if they are more cumbersome to work with at first I think in the long run it will just work out better for me to distance myself from this group all together.

You guys talk a lot of s**t about those Fractal guys. Truthfully, not all of you, but some of you act just as poorly as they do. Myself included.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by feedingjoey on 2009-11-02 11:47:59

Matt,

I had every intention of providing you with a clip. However after seeing the way Mark Day was micro analyzed by others here I don't see how doing that could have any positive benefit for anybody. My work will be torn apart by these guys regardless of how good or bad it might be so I really just don't want to be a part of that. Mark is an Exceptional player. He is highly respected in the industry. Regardless if someone here thinks his tones are perfect or not. I say when someone's achievment's have EXCEEDED that of which Mark's accomplishments are, then by all means have a PRIVATE conversation with Mark about the fact that he doesn't sound Just like EVH. Until then keep practicing. Personally I wish I sounded as good as Mark on his worst day.

If you've been keeping up you'll know that I asked guys for a simple Patch out of their unit that they thought would cut through the mix and what I got was. Well uhhh, It ah.... well you see uhhh.....That will never work. Well if that's the way they feel then I guess that whole tone sharing part of this website is big waste of time and certainly anything I might contribute would be trash anyway.

Sorry to dissapoint you. But thanks for your intentions to help me. I do appreciate it.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by feedingjoey on 2009-11-02 11:54:54

Hey Undertaker4,

Thanks for having my back on this. Your attempt didn't fall on deaf ears. This was one of the references I was talking about and while it address F&M in a great way it doesn't specifically talk about the Line 6 specific problems. In the past there were a lot of places on the web that did talk about the problem. I don't know how many are left up as I really haven't searched for it lately, but for sure you won't find anything on Line 6's site. As far as I know Vettaville is not owned by Line 6.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Slingy on 2009-11-02 13:06:40

I have made hundreds of patches over the years. I play direct to pc and use different guitars for different things. Here are 40 songs.

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=615225

Somegood, great, and not so great, but all different styles. If you want to try out some patches I'll do my best to dig up which ones I used.

I would specifically check out Shadows, Flabbermouth, Town On Fire, and others. I can get almost any sound I'm after with Podfarm and model packs, it would be very cumbersome to learn all the ins and outs of a new vst, and I've never felt that guitar rig or amplitube was any better. But I'll be willing to try the Axe interface when it comes available.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by feedingjoey on 2009-11-02 17:49:27

Hey Slingy,

Great stuff man. Keep up the good work. I appreciate your efforts. I'm not having a problem creating tones. My problem is getting Distorted tones to cut through the mix in a live situation. Recording into My PC I can put the guitar pretty much where ever I want it. For me when I'm direct into the PC I like Guitar Rig the best, but to be fair I don't have Pod Farm. So I can't really make a honest  judgment call. But like I said your stuff sounds great.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Slingy on 2009-11-02 23:58:59

Well I wouldn't think John's patches would be any different. He records direct. And you did ask for patches, but you didn't say what kind of music. No one knows why your Pod doesnt cut through the mix. There are many variables, output mode, amplifier, guitar, volume, tone, other players. If you've exhausted all these options then move on. Podfarm freaking rules!



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by spaceatl on 2009-11-03 13:42:44

I am not sure how long you have been doing this stuff, but I learned x number of years ago that live and studio are two completely different worlds in terms of electric guitar...In general, that high gain tone that works in the studio will be about 10-30% less gain and perhaps a touch more mids in the real world...The thing is, in the real world the SPL helps to make up for the slight reduction in distortion...Whatever the gain control says means nothing in the modeling world...Gain on 10 on the Super Lead 100 model is not realy a lot of distortion...Gain on 3 on the Soldano is3 or 4 times the distortion of the Superlead model with the gain on 10 or some approximation thereof...

All I can really suggest is what I do with my XT...I make copies of the patches I tracked with in diffferent "live" memory locations...I take it to rehearsal and 9 times out of 10, bump down the gain a skosh and tap the mids up a hair...Always have to set gain with the band and there is a magic spot...Finding it can be a bit of a challenge on the XT compared to a conventional amp...But rest assured that problem has always been there and is generally the first problem all players run into when trying to get their tone from the studio to the stage...

Sorry if I seem terse, it is just that you are asking the same question that I have heard no less than 4,287,956 times....Why doesn't my tone cut thru the mix? The clean tone is no problem...It was true 25 years ago and it is true now...Only the tools are a little different...The physics are still the same, although the speed of light may have changed depending on what physical theories you are a fan of...



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Mcgill on 2009-11-03 14:15:22

I am a fan of Spock!

Here is a Vulcan, Yeah!!  Quite logical too! Vulcans are rich in science!

4k on glass is not the same as 4k on grass! 



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by gcamorani78 on 2009-11-04 01:33:09

Wow Slingy, some really good tones there!! Can you upload the patch of the distorted rythm guitar in Flabbermouth (in the higher-gain part)? or at least tell us the amp model, cab, mic and setting?

thanks



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Matt_J71 on 2009-11-04 05:06:00

I like the rhythm tone on Flabbermouth too - especially the chunky chords from around 1:00-1:30 in.

Which Wah model did you use for the lead part?



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Slingy on 2009-11-04 08:50:54

The wah is a Morley Bad Horsie that I put in front of my Toneport. Let me see if I can find the patch.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Matt_J71 on 2009-11-04 17:07:50

I didn't think that sounded like any of the Wah sounds in the POD, that was why I asked. The Bad Horsie sounds good in front of the POD though.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by feedingjoey on 2009-11-04 18:00:50

spaceatl wrote:

I am not sure how long you have been doing this stuff, but I learned x number of years ago that live and studio are two completely different worlds in terms of electric guitar...In general, that high gain tone that works in the studio will be about 10-30% less gain and perhaps a touch more mids in the real world...The thing is, in the real world the SPL helps to make up for the slight reduction in distortion...Whatever the gain control says means nothing in the modeling world...Gain on 10 on the Super Lead 100 model is not realy a lot of distortion...Gain on 3 on the Soldano is3 or 4 times the distortion of the Superlead model with the gain on 10 or some approximation thereof...

All I can really suggest is what I do with my XT...I make copies of the patches I tracked with in diffferent "live" memory locations...I take it to rehearsal and 9 times out of 10, bump down the gain a skosh and tap the mids up a hair...Always have to set gain with the band and there is a magic spot...Finding it can be a bit of a challenge on the XT compared to a conventional amp...But rest assured that problem has always been there and is generally the first problem all players run into when trying to get their tone from the studio to the stage...

Sorry if I seem terse, it is just that you are asking the same question that I have heard no less than 4,287,956 times....Why doesn't my tone cut thru the mix? The clean tone is no problem...It was true 25 years ago and it is true now...Only the tools are a little different...The physics are still the same, although the speed of light may have changed depending on what physical theories you are a fan of...

Spaceatl, I've been at this a long time. I agree with everything you've said. It's all right on the mark. To me, what you've outlined is "Tone Basics 101" what every guitar player should know and practice. The only thing I would disagree with you on is that I think it's been the same for LONGER than 25 years. I think it's been the case since Guitar met amp. You don't seem "Terse" to me. You just seem as frustrated with the question as I am with the problem. I believe that to be true because I have also found that no matter how hard you try and pound it into some guitarists heads, most just simply don't get the fact that reducing gain live, actually makes your dirty tones sound better. If you really knew me you'd know I'm "Mr less gain". Like I've said in other posts. I can get it to work with any one amp no problem. But to your point outlined in red. You have to sit there and tweak and finding that sweet spot really can be a challenge. And it really has to be done with the band. I don't have a problem with having to tweak my gear either. It's a fact of life that every piece of gear requires a bit of tweaking.  BUT when I'm bouncing from rehearsal space to rehearsal space or band to band and dealing with a hand full of different set ups the amount of required tweaking time really needs to be kept to a minimum. Asking every band to burn an hour of rehearsal time for me to dial everything in isn't really cool.

I always have to come back to the point that this isn't an issue with my GT PRO or PSA 1.  Why that is I don't know for sure. Tech 21 says it's because they addressed the issue in the design stage of their products. They feel they do it better than everyone else too! (but what company wouldn't) With those other rigs I can just plug in and go regardless of where I'm at or who I'm playing with. Now it is true that my tone might be slightly different, but to your point that Live is one thing and studio is something completely different, I'm not in the studio so I don't have to nail that tone exact. If my tone varies slightly from band to band nobody's really gonna notice or care like they might from song to song on a recording. But if I kick in a dirty patch and suddenly you can't hear me at all. I think they're gonna notice and care. It's a problem I've had with every piece of Line 6 gear I've owned. But to Line 6's favor I did not find this to be the case with the Bogner amps.

I guess the conclusion that I've come to, and this isn't intened to make me sound superior to anyone or put anyone down, is that the Line 6 gear is great in the studio and great for hobbists, weekend warriors or those who are playing in a more limited or controlled situation. Like if you play with the Same Top 40 band all the time I can can see huge potential for this gear. But for someone in my situation this just simply may not be the right tool for the job. I need something that requires a bit less tweaking in every situation. So for now I'll just leave the XT in the studio. There is a reason that you hear line 6 products on tons of recordings. For me that's going to be the best use of the gear.

I really do appreciate you taking the time to try and help me. Hopefully there will be others that will benefit from these conversations as well.

Thanks Again.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by feedingjoey on 2009-11-04 18:35:51

I gotta agree with Matt. I like that Bad Horsie. But then again that's my all time favorite Wah. I was gonna ask how you got it myself because I haven't heard any modelers do it yet. But now I know.

Hey I also really liked your "Song of Winter" . Good stuff man.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by keemarcello on 2009-11-04 19:09:17

Read your post and had to check it out. Played my friends and that was it. Mine arrives on Friday. Now I need to sell my X3 PRO and FBV Longboard. I certainly don't mean to put down the Line 6 but I will pay whatever its worth to have the best I can get. Thanks for the tip. BTW, I still have my Pocket Pod. Can't beat that thing!

Peace to all!



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by feedingjoey on 2009-11-04 22:37:25

keemarcello wrote:

Read your post and had to check it out. Played my friends and that was it. Mine arrives on Friday. Now I need to sell my X3 PRO and FBV Longboard. I certainly don't mean to put down the Line 6 but I will pay whatever its worth to have the best I can get. Thanks for the tip. BTW, I still have my Pocket Pod. Can't beat that thing!

Peace to all!

L M A O R O T F. Seems to be a lot of that going around lately!

I dunno, seems that thing just kinda has a "BUY ME NOW" impact on people. I wonder why that is?

I know it's a bad economy and all but hey, Sleeze Bay might pay off. Regardless of what you get for you Line 6 gear I just can't see you being disappointed with your purchase. I haven't dropped down my cash yet. I'm waiting for NAMM and hopefully a "Show Special" It's only 2 months away. I can wait. No offence here either I'll be keeping my line 6 gear.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Slingy on 2009-11-05 06:47:53

What is so funny? Line6 makes a hell of alot products that people buy, they are not going to get all butt hurt if people buy Axe-FX. Personally if I was a live player, I'd just get a good three channel amp and some tasty effects boxes. The best application for modelling is direct recording.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Mcgill on 2009-11-05 13:03:42

Insecurity! Will always release the GAS syndrome!

Funny? Maybe, but true!

And I am not immune!

But I love stuff! I really do!  Why have more than 2 guitars?  (Ask the Wife! )

Is one Comp Pedal that different than the other? (Well, Yes!! But ask the Wife again!)



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by feedingjoey on 2009-11-05 14:55:59

Now, now there was no hostility intended there, It was laughter after all. Nobody said that line 6 doesn't make a good product. Well maybe I did. But that's beside the point. I've got my reasons. Sure lots of people are gonna buy line 6 stuff. It's good stuff and for most people it gets the job done just great. What's so funny is that It seems like some of the really dedicated line 6 guys who went all in with the X3 and the controllers and stuff are eagerly willing to toss all that gear to the side and even trip over it sprawling to get their hands on the Axe-Fx. The cost of the unit isn't even a factor. Who cares if it costs 4 times what your X3 cost. So at some point you gotta ask if it really is that good. I think it is but others here don't. That's cool. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. And to your point about a three channel amp and some effects boxes. I've done exactly that. And yea that's cool too but believe me modeling is rapidly making a big dent there too. Those tube amps aren't all their cracked up to be. Tubes wear and when they do your tone changes so you lose consistency night to night. Unless you've got a tech to take care of that kind of stuff that is. Plus you gotta shell out money to replace those tubes and maintain the damn thing. One year I spent $400 on my JCM 800. Blow a transformer and just see what kind of havoc it can reak. They're big and heavy, they take up lots of space and then of course you gotta crank them to really get the tone out them. All that stage volume just creates all kinds of additional trouble. Especially in a bar. Then of course your stuck with it's one tone, or three, you know what I mean. The modelers just simply make a lot more common sense to use if your working on a regular basis. They don't break your back and in the long run they end up being pretty cost effective too. I'm guessing that's why Dwezil ditched the Fuchs and used one on the last Zappa Plays Zappa tour. I could be wrong. Maybe he's just jumping on the band wagon too. I dunno, that's a whole lot of programming and tweaking to do for something that people here are almost trying to make out as the latest FAD.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Slingy on 2009-11-05 15:41:02

I'm sorry but your antics really throw me off. I havn't seen bold giant colored text and shouting since gaming forums full of 12 year old trash talkers.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by feedingjoey on 2009-11-05 19:04:18

Ya know even though both this guy and myself will end up with the axe fx, My laughing was actually in favor of line 6. I am still in disbelief at his action. I find it strange that as a line 6 user, you don't find it amusingly strange that a guy like this would just ditch his line 6 gear and go all in with the axe-Fx?  Do you consider that normal behaivior? Seriously if the line 6 gear is so good and such a bargan why in the hell would anybody switch in that manner? I'm not talking about adding new gear like I'm doing. I'm talkin kick line 6 to the curb and switch products all together. You read what the man said. I believe it was that he was gonna have to sell off his line 6 gear. That dude was obviously WAY in bed with line 6 and he's just up and walking away. To me that's kinda odd. I'm thinkin the guy just might have a screw or two loose to just ditch and go like that. On the other hand maybe he just knows exactly what he wants and it aint line 6.

Sorry if I offended you but I thought it was pretty damn funny that this established L6 user would pretty much dis the flagship product and announce his departure to Fractal in a Line 6 forum. But after pondering it a while I'm not surprised.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by wardick on 2009-11-05 20:18:22

What I find odd about all that is the fact that a guy with X3Pro and floorboard joins the Line 6 forum yesterday and his first post is to say he is selling it and getting Axe-Fx.  What I don't find odd is the decision to do so.  Well over a year ago I made the same choice due.  I might still have Line 6 if I never purchased an X3Live.  That product was the turning point for me.  That product ended my 5 year or so run with Line 6.  I sold it and everything else Line 6 that I owned.

At that point in time I still would have told you that Line 6 was the best modelling out there.  I had no plan on what to use, but I only knew it would never again be Line 6.  No point getting into what I tried after that, but almost immediately I realized the world of modeling moved beyond what I was getting and hearing from Line 6.  I tried a bunch of stuff, but hadn't quite found "it".  I still had a bunch more to try, but the process was getting old and wasting my time.  Decided to just get out of the consumer mass market level products and try this Axe-Fx thing and skip everything in between. The last hardware product I tried was VG-99.    Wondering if the Axe-Fx was going to be 4 times better than X3L since it is 4 times the price it doesn't work.  You can't relate it in those terms.  

So I got Axe-Fx Standard model.  I wanted an Ultra, but for some reason didn't pony up the extra money even though it has features I wanted.  I didn't believe all the hype. I had zero expectations and fully expected to be returning for refund like all the other gear.  All the more reason I should have just got the Ultra, but I am cheap.   I didn't return it.  I did sell Standard almost a year later and got the Ultra since I not only use it for guitar, I also use it as fx processor for vocals, other instruments, tracks, mixes, etc and I still wanted those extras in the Ultra.  Would have been fine to keep the Standard, but things were just right to move up.   I direct record so I didn't have to deal with other associated costs of midi floorboard controller and whatever else.  I don't need those things.  I wouldn't mind having them, but can do without.

The cycle of spending new money every 2-3 years on Line 6 modelling products and whatever else they pimp you for in between (model pack and whatnot) is over for me. I am surprised that things have been flat/dormant with X3 upgrades or fixes for that matter.  That is no not Line 6.   Now I'm back to buying old guitars

Dweezil Zappa has 2 Ultras last I heard.  Lincoln Brewster has 4 of them now.   I guess he can get twice as wild as Dweezil.

Buy an Axe-Fx or not I don't care, keep using Line 6 I don't care about that either.  Buy what works to your satisfaction and gets you tones you can live with without compromise.

Rock On Dudes!

Charlie



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by stumpsout on 2009-11-05 20:55:05

I'm glad I have an X3Live with for direct recording, SPDIF out lets me reamp with any plugin there is..or ever will be (once it comes out). Plenty good IMO for live if I need it, but it's my backup. I'm very happy that my main rig live now is a tube amp with an M13 and some stomps.

I'm one of the guys that need it a little less options or I will be off in the lah-lah land tweaking matrix instead of playing the damn guitar. I get a good sound now, good effects, a few versatile main tones, I keep an open mind, but I am on to other things....THANK GOD! YMMV!!!

All together now "....this is the thread that duzz-ent-end........it goes on and on my frennnnd...!"



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by feedingjoey on 2009-11-05 22:12:41

I always love what you have to say wardick. But I'm curious. Why, if you got completly out of the line 6 world, do you still read and participate in these posts? I'm not saying it a bad thing. For me it has certainly been a really good thing that you do.  But why bother? Why waste anymore time with line 6 at all?



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by keemarcello on 2009-11-05 22:32:48

For a little clarity.

   Please do NOT misinterpret the following as bragging or in a condescending tone. God has Blessed me and I am only on this Earth for a short time as we all are. I just turned 48 and have been playing in bars and clubs since I was in High School(class of '80). I have a MA + in Music Education/Performance and have been a Professional Musician as well as  Music Teacher for a very long time, I have lost track of how many guitars I have owned, both American and imports (seriously). Having played in cover bands for so long, I have always needed the widest variety in 'ampage" I could get. I have also owned too many tube amps to remember as including several Riveras (M100 and the beast rack-mount TBR2SL), several Carvins including the Vai model (didn't dig it and I play a Jem7VWH) and the quad rackmount preamp, Crates (the Bv150HB 3 Channel is outstanding ), Marshall combos and stacks, VHT's, Mesa Rectos and a Triaxis and a cool 2-12 combo amp by Fuchs. I still own my Bogner Shiva with an effects loop mod that Rafa Moriera turned me onto. I finally got tired of lugging fragile/heavy amps around and never getting all the tones I really wanted. I turned to the Modelling  amps as an alternative.The more pedals and cables you have the more issues you can get.

BTW, my friend Todd is actually worse than I am about gear (seeking tone nirvana) but an amazing guitarist and a great guy.

I have been reading the forums and discussions at the Boss and Line 6 sites for many years. I don't post anything unless I have a reason to or a question to ask or some insight to offer.

Since switching to modellers I have possesed a Boss GT of the last three series and only recently sold my GT-10 (better metal tones than Line6) and bought an X3 Pro(better clean and crunch tones than Boss) in search of something new.  Nothing seemed new about any of it.  I am not joking when I say that I have owned all the Pods, all the floor models Line 6 has ever made, a Flextone ll, and a Vetta (the volume knob would turn on its own during gigs from the vibration-Line 6 said to put a rubber band on it:/). If this sounds absurd to you then you are likely someone who is more easily pleased and doesn't have need for as much variety in tone.

    Because I now cover everything from Jazz to Country to Worship Music to Metal, I seek the Holy Grail of Modelling Technology. Anyone with a brain knows you need to tweek the crap out of them to get a great tone. Hence the buying and selling of so many units. Now, why post what I did? Because I finally felt the desire to offer my opinion/my take, as a VETERAN of the Amp Model Wars.  I was shocked by the characteristics of the Fractal Audio unit. It was TRULY responding in ways I have not yet heard in any unit by BOSS, VOX, LINE 6 or DIGITECH. Don't talk about dollars and price value if you are seeking the best you can get. When I first checked out this  series of videos on the sounds in the AFX http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKj_CKhlR0Y&fmt=18.I wasn't going to watch ALL of them but I was glad I did. Then I had to try one. My friend had one and generously let me tweek around and give it a workout. Of course it costs more than the X3Pro, hence the selling of my X3 Pro and that poorly made but well layed out FBV. I actually envy those who are not seeking the "Holy Grail" tone. Fortunately it is my weakness and not yours. I am no better than any of you who read and post on this forum. I do wonder if some of you get the revelation it must have taken for me to post on this, in a Line 6 forum? Enjoy your Line 6 Gear. It IS cool stuff. A lot of people swear by it. Who knows I'll probably be selling the Fractal Audio unit and getting the next best thing sometime soon. Or will I? Best wishes to all of you and don't be so suspicious of people offering opinions and insight. Take it with a grain of salt and move on.

Peace.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...and my X3 live
by hangtime on 2009-11-06 05:22:45

Hi Folk's,

Is it possible to control an Axe Fx with a Pod X3 Live ?

If Yes, is it like a control with a cheap midi controller or a control more like an Liquid Foot ( or moreless than a Voodoo Ground control) ?

Thank's



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by wardick on 2009-11-06 06:05:42

That question was asked my Miller many months ago and previsously answered.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by hangtime on 2009-11-06 08:08:53

Thank's but what is the answear Mista ?

You know how does those materials can take a lot of time to manage, so that it's interesting to share you're knowledge, Folk's !!



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by HeavyChevy on 2009-11-06 11:26:05

I can not speak for wardick, but I can speak for myself.......

At one time, Line6 was the best out there.  Many moons ago.  I own thousands of dollars worth of Line6 gear.  All of it now has no value despite the reduntantcy it provides me.   To me, IMHO, the stuff is worthless in 2009.   All the "Line6 new modeling stuff" is the same as "meet the old boss" - only worse, because for many users, it does not work as advertised.

In other words, my function is "Buyer, Beware".  If one is a bedroom masterbational hobbiest, Line6 is the product for you.  Consider that a promotion.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by HeavyChevy on 2009-11-06 11:42:26

Oh yeah.......

Rock music has always been way more important to me than drunks that may be unable to appreciate good tone.  As a matter of fact, most of the drunks that I have met do know the difference, despite what has been portrayed on this forum.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by feedingjoey on 2009-11-06 12:02:36

How come I took such a sevre beating from this crowd for saying the same thing?

Consumer Electronics VS Professional Audio Equiment. oh yea.. silly me I don't know what the F**K a consumer is.

One other note. I'm a Dumba** (but you guys already knew that) I did in fact download and install that free Pod Farm. I was recording something and noticed it in my plugins. Then it Dawned on me that when I initially installed it I tried to run it stand alone and It wouldn't let me. It didn't accept my XTL as an approved device or whatever. So I just forgot about it. Anyway I loaded that baby up in my DAW and low and behold that things pretty darn good. It's not a CPU hog at all. But what I did notice is that it "Pairs up" with my XTL. so what ever amp / effect packs I've got installed, thats what it will let me use in the plug in. OK fine, it's free for crying out loud. I'm not gonna be picky. So I dialed in a really Killer patch. Ok you caught me. Actually I spent about 2 seconds tweaking the delay of the  the "Bad" preset. Since the "Farm" lets me use whats in the XTL I'd assume the XTL should let me use what's in the Farm right? I mean that would be logical. So my next adventure is to see If I can recreate that same tone in the XTL.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Slingy on 2009-11-06 12:10:04

Well at least you are not a "bedroom masterbational hobbiest". Somehow I now feel dirty about myself.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by feedingjoey on 2009-11-06 12:13:04

HeavyChevy wrote:

Oh yeah.......

Rock music has always been way more important to me than drunks that may be unable to appreciate good tone.  As a matter of fact, most of the drunks that I have met do know the difference, despite what has been portrayed on this forum.

Well I agree with the first part, but the second part I can't really agree with you on bud. I guess you know a bunch of drunk guitar players. But the bars I play in the drunks are more interested in me playing Sweet Home Alabama "Just one more time" and and they could care less whether I play it on my guitar or that cougars bra straps. (perhaps that's saying something about my guitar playing!)

Knome Sayin'?



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by feedingjoey on 2009-11-06 12:18:59

Slingy wrote:

Somehow I now feel dirty about myself.

Well you should after all that time you spend on the12 year olds gaming forums.

That was a joke Slingy. You kinda set you self up for that one. Come on now. If we can't laugh at our selves who are we gonna laugh at? Line 6?



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by wardick on 2009-11-06 12:35:35

I also lived through at least 3 generations of forum software.   The answer was old time friends and aquaintences.   The lounge and share your stuff I still check out, everything else bah.

I am trying to get 5 stars.  Why does eastbound freeway traffic stop when there is wreck on the westbound side?



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Slingy on 2009-11-06 13:01:05

Well I am all in for the Axe VST and interface when it becomes available. I love my Toneport and Podfarm to death, but I wanna see what it can do. I just cant deal with a rackmount hardware unit on my desk.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by spaceatl on 2009-11-06 13:25:59

They just gave you a VST interface for your XTL...What they did makes sense to me...Why would they give you models you do not own? XTL is a dongle in this regard I guess...



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by feedingjoey on 2009-11-06 14:46:20

spaceatl wrote:

They just gave you a VST interface for your XTL...What they did makes sense to me...Why would they give you models you do not own? XTL is a dongle in this regard I guess...

Yeah, that's what I figure, makes perfect sense. Do you know then, if you tweak something up real nice in the vst can you save that preset to the XTL easily? Because if it is just a VST interface wouldn't it make sense that you could do that? Forgive my ignorance too please. Remember I just discovered the damn VST so I really haven't done my homework yet. I just opened it up and started poking around. I like what I see so i'm gonna spend so time with it.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by nuser101 on 2009-11-06 14:59:14

wardick wrote:

I am trying to get 5 stars.  Why does eastbound freeway traffic stop when there is wreck on the westbound side?

LOL!

Clearly, though, you're a noob. You'd get far more points with "Why does a chicken cross the road?" because there are enough responses to enable multiple posts. All ten pointers, too!



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by feedingjoey on 2009-11-06 17:48:27

wardick wrote:

The answer was old time friends and aquaintences.

Ok this one I'm good with but......

I am trying to get 5 stars.

WTF? Your already a star bud. You don't need no more stinkin stars. More stars = less life. It's not like that 6 flags thing. "More Flags more Fun" really If you had 5 stars I 'd have to say "Get a Life"!

If I were you I'd try for like.....5 girlfriends or 5 muscle cars or... well you get the idea.

gg



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by aaron__aardvark on 2009-11-08 11:03:22

wardick,

Because of the dreaded lookie-lou's.  But I do it too, just like everyone else.  Human nature.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by rojoyinc on 2009-11-23 18:42:27

Interesting I just heard abou tthe AXE-FX on the VG99 forum. Have been researching it for a couple days now and - just saw this post.

Actually the VG-99 made me sell my Variax 700 and POD XTLIVE  (the Toneport UX8 made my sell my toneport UX2)

I don't really use the UX8 any more - so I'd considering selling it.  But the line6 stuff does so much for the money.

I'm not just not sure if the AXE FX  is that much better than the VG99 - the demos I've heard seem to sound better, but don't demo's always?  their forum still has lots of  ISSUES like any other.  It doesn't have the COSM guitar modeling like the VG-99.

Still looks great - but do I need it with  UX8 and VG99 - oh - I have a guitarport too (will never sell) great interface for my laptop.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Kazak9 on 2009-11-24 06:24:29

I use a Variax 700 with a GK3 --> VG-99 and it is a great setup. However, I also use the main variax output to an Axe-Fx and a Digidesign Eleven, and a Mesa MK IV (preamp) --> Digitech GSP 1101 all of which are great, and this makes the most flexible modeling setup I can configure. However, if I could only have one, there would be no contest at all, it would be the Axe-Fx. The Eleven is a very nice piece and worth checking out, but for the money I think the GSP is very good value, using its own internal amp modeling. I am still hoping L6 will make something to compete with the Axe-Fx, but at this point I can find nothing that is close. (You're results may vary.)

This may be of interest:

http://www.youtube.com/user/OpenMicRecording#p/u/19/2lY3s6RPne4

Onthe left GSP 1101 and on the right Axe-Fx both direct to FOH.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2009-11-25 09:09:45

rojoyinc wrote:

their forum still has lots of  ISSUES like any other.

The Axe forum?  If there are issues, they are small, and they get fixed QUICKLY.

I like my Axe-Fx, a lot.  Is it a tube amp replacement?  Kinda sorta.  Does it feel like a tube amp like everyone says?  No, not really, at least not that bouncy feeling you get from a real amp.  Dynamics are great, though.  But it's the best sounding modeling unit I've ever played through, bar none.  Some modeling units have certain kinds of amps that they do well.  Line6 does high gain well, Boss does upper medium gain okay, Vox does the mid gain well.  But all those units fall short in other gain ranges.  Not so the Axe.  It seems to handle everything well.  I know if you go to YouTube it seems like all you can do with it are U2 covers, LOL!  But it actually does high gain the best of any I've tried.  And cleans too.  And mid gain.

Let me dispel some of the fanboy-ism surrounding this unit, because it's touted as the be-all, end all...better than even the original tube amps themselves, etc, etc.  If it was so perfect to start with, how come everyone on the board is touting their latest firmware update as an incredible improvement? LOL!

Here's what it really is:  a very high quality all-in-one package marketed toward the pro player, yet still affordable by hobbyists and weekend giggers who would have bought a nice tube amp and pedals anyway.  When I look at what I spent on my Marshalls and pedalboard, I more than afforded the Axe rig, even factoring in a power amp and my 412 for loud use.  What it means to me is that I can finally have a single unit that can be the core of my rig in both an 80's Hair Metal cover band, and for contemporary praise and worship music in a direct-to-board setting.  Not saying you can't do that and get by with any other brand.  Just that, for me, this one does it better.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by spaceatl on 2009-11-25 09:27:47

Next thing you know you will be wearing a strange looking ring, playing with dolls and wearing a "Dark Helmet"...

I'm gonna call Lonestar....



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by phil_m on 2009-11-25 10:25:12
If it was so perfect to start with, how come everyone on the board is
touting their latest firmware update as an incredible improvement? LOL!

You know I was actually over on the Axe-FX forum today and I had that same thought.  I thought that the amp models were supposed to be dead-on to begin with.  I guess Cliff is somehow improving on perfection...

Anyway, the thing I just don't understand is why all the videos on Youtube sucks so bad.  Seriously, I've watched probably at least three or four dozen, and there's only been three or four that I think sound good at all.  I mean, I see video where guys just record themselves through camcorders playing a regular amp that sound better.  Obviously, they aren't doing the unit justice based on every review I've read, but Cliff should issue a moratorium on users putting videos up until they learn how to record.

I guess on one hand the videos do prove something I've thought for a long time - no matter what gear you have, it can't buy you a good ear.  If people like tones that sound bad to begin with, than that's pretty much what all their tones will sound like no matter what they use.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by mikey1 on 2009-11-25 11:31:05

"But I doubt I'll ever own one."  Karl H.

I think you will. I really do. A lot of us will. Because it's our passion. I think that eventually, you'll get an itch that Line 6 just cant scratch. You'll get your hands on one and that will be it.

I can predict the future!!



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2009-11-25 13:10:22

mikey1 wrote:

"But I doubt I'll ever own one."  Karl H.

I think you will. I really do. A lot of us will. Because it's our passion. I think that eventually, you'll get an itch that Line 6 just cant scratch. You'll get your hands on one and that will be it.

I can predict the future!!

Yep, I was wrong and you were right.  I hereby eat my words.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2009-11-25 13:15:33

phil_m wrote:

Anyway, the thing I just don't understand is why all the videos on Youtube sucks so bad.  Seriously, I've watched probably at least three or four dozen, and there's only been three or four that I think sound good at all.

I guess on one hand the videos do prove something I've thought for a long time - no matter what gear you have, it can't buy you a good ear.

Yep, they could have bought a boutique amp and still sucked.  It's like any other piece of gear in that it doesn't guarantee automatic success.  There are a surprising number of real newbies on that forum who have bought the thing.  You can tell by their questions that they have no clue what certain effects or utitlities do and need to spend some time doing some serious learning about each component.  But if you're a good tweaker on other modelers, and you understand how a signal path should be set up, I believe you stand a better chance of dialing in a great sound on this unit than on others.

phil_m wrote:


You know I was actually over on the Axe-FX forum today and I had that same thought.  I thought that the amp models were supposed to be dead-on to begin with.  I guess Cliff is somehow improving on perfection...

Yes, I guess he is.   The big improvement, supposedly, are the power amp simulations.  Previously, things could get pretty muddied up with large amounts of master volume and sag.  He's dialed that in a little differently now.  I don't know if it's better than it was, but I do know it sounds good when you crank it.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by keemarcello on 2009-11-25 13:42:46

Hopefully this isn't misinterpreted as a slam by anyone reading it.

There is a series of videos from one user on youtube that are very well made that I posted in an earlier post that shows quite a few of the sound sets you can use and does it very well. Of coure anyone who would base a decision solely on a youtube video should think twice. I will be leaving the Line6 forum shortly due to my switch from Line6 to Fractal Audio products. The sound really is that much better for me and my personal tastes. I no longer can imagine if someone was given an AxeFx and an X3 Pro that they would choose the X3 Pro over the AxeFx. The difficulty lies in not taking offense when someone touts the Fractal Audio stuff and just listen and learn what is going down. The sheer number of updates doesnt imply flawed product (only GOD is perfect) but rather a committment to support and upgrades as users ask for new or different things. The learning curve is high and if you arent a tweaker, you may be intimidated, But if you are, the rewards are amazing. Some other user stated that the unit doesnt respond like a tube amp but I think it does. Much more so than any other tubeless preamp or modeller out there. I know because I have owned them. I really hope this IS the "holy Grail" of preamps and I can get some G.A.S relief. So far I am pleased beyond belief with my AxeFx and now wish that maybe I'd spent the extra and got an Ultra while I was at it. I will spend months discovering the possibilities of this unit. I also have the satisfaction of knowing that Cliff LISTENS, ISSUES FIXES and UPDATES and RESPONDS to requests and quality control. How many times has Boss, Line6, Vox, etc, etc, done that for you or me at such a quick pace?  Line6 once told me to put a rubber band on the volume of my Vetta II because it moved on it's own during gigs causing havoc with levels. What? After that much money? Thats support? More like a turn off.

I guess the thing is, we are all in this music thing and should cut each other some slack and open our minds when each of us offer something up. I still like some of my Boss, Vox, Digitech and Line6 gear for what they bring to the table. Peace to all of you and thanks for all the years of reading and advice I've gleaned from this forum.

*Bottom line: FOR ME- It's the best out there for what it does. It was worth the money to me. Good luck and keep making the best music you can with what you have both talent-wise and gear-wise!



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by phil_m on 2009-11-25 15:33:10

I wouldn't argue with anything you've said.  I would think that the issue with updates and fixes for Line 6 products versus the Axe-FX is simply a matter of the vastly different sizes of the company.  I would say that for a company its size Line 6 is responsive, but it simply can't move as fast as someone who's dedicated to a single product like Cliff at Fractal.  Also Line 6, Boss, Vox are like the Toyota and Honda of the music industry - they make decent products that do what's advertised for the most part, but they aren't a Rolls-Royce.  The Axe is the Rolls.  And actually, it's probably not a bad price for all it offers.

Personally, I decided a while ago that I simply don't need everything a modeler gives me.  I'm not really the type of person who enjoys fine tuning my tone endlessly.  I just want a few decent tones that I can use as a canvas for effects, and right now I can get those through the amps I have.  I really don't have any need to go direct in a live situation at the moment, but if I did in serious way, I might look more closely again at the Axe-FX.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by HeavyChevy on 2009-11-25 15:50:16

Finally.......

I do apologize for the hassle over the past few years.  You know, I love ya like a brother.  Despite my nastyness, I was trying to get you headed in the right direction.

Hell, I do not own anything Fractal yet.  But I do own stuff that crushes L6.

Still.......I would have kept one of those Marshalls for the live stuff !!!

Scott



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Matt_J71 on 2009-11-25 17:29:11

You don't own an Axe, but you own stuff that crushes L6.......and what would that be? Do you mean for direct or just amps for live stuff?

I also agree that most YouTube videos of the Axe-Fx suck.........but 99% of all YouTube guitar videos suck......no matter what guitar, amp, modeler, or whatever is being used.

I think that the majority of the guys that post reviews on Harmony-Central and other places (here for example) that type hundreds of thousands of words about "good tone" and what the best product to buy either:

(A) can't play their way out of a baggy, so they sound like crap no matter what they play through, or

(B) can play really well, but have tone that sounds like they plugged a distortion pedal directly into their soundcard.

There are guys on the Axe-Fx forum that slam the POD and say the Axe is so much better, but when you hear their videos, they get tone that is way worse than the POD tones that I can get. These are the guys that annoy the L6 people.....because while it may be true that the Axe is better, a lot of the people that run their mouth about it sound terrible in spite of the $2000 they spent on it.

Not to be arrogant......but I think the tone I get on this video is better than most of the Axe-Fx videos I have watched on YouTube and I am using an X3. I can get better tones than this, but I threw this video together in about 5 minutes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDGEBEAJMCM

Alot of those guys are much better guitar players than me, but tone-wise I think a lot of them can make a $2000 Axe-Fx sound worse than an X3 because they don't know how to tweak it.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2009-11-25 18:50:48

Again, very nice.  And I'm still the only one to comment on that vid?   You're right.  Most of the talkers on that forum are just that. Talkers with money to burn.  They went out and bought the best and have not a clue how to use it.

I'm not ready to post any clips with the Axe yet.  I have a lot to learn on that unit before I even gig it out.  For instance, I found out I got the wrong kind of pedals for expression pedals.  Ernie Ball volume pedals are really nice and sturdy, but they have absolutely the wrong kind of taper on the pot to be used effectively as expression or wah.  So, lesson learned, and I ordered a pair of pedals from a company that makes expression pedals with the Axe-Fx and Ground Control in mind.  And they're cheaper, go figure.  And I almost got the wrong MIDI controller.  The rig isn't plug and play, and there's definitely some choices to make that will yield better results than others.  That's why I got one now while our band is on gig break until January.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by mikey1 on 2009-11-26 09:18:15

I wish I could afford one.   And the older my kids get, the less chance I have of getting one.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by rojoyinc on 2009-11-26 09:43:52

points made - kinda getting tired of seeing these in my email.

I'd love a axe fx - but it can't do a lot of what I do with my VG99 - (like I play my keyboard synth sounds through my guitar with VG99) Can you say awesome sax solos via fretboard.  So I wouldn't swap it... sound on the axe sounds great, but you know - I haven't used my guitar port (99 bucks) in ages and last few days I'm up on my laptop... I plugged it in and after trying some tones that didn't quite cut it - I dialed in my own  fanastic  funk tone that just sounds awesome... got the head phones on - no background noise.  I was really feeling it.  And there's a lot to be said about  gearbox and a < 99.00 interface from Line6.

Not as good as the 2000.00 Axe? most likely not.  1900.00 better?  Really can't say.  A lot of be said for the portability of a lapstop, riffworks and guitar port.  My VG99 doesn't get used much becuase I have to sit in my music studio to use it. Same as if I had the AXE installed there.   Fun factor?  a laptop and guitarport on the porch or sitting in the living room by the fire.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2009-11-26 09:53:44

There's absolutely nothing wrong with GuitarPort or the Pocket POD, or what have you for the fun factor.  It is cool stuff, and it sounds decent, which makes it that much more fun to play around with or practice with.  And certainly if you need the synth stuff, the Roland unit is the way to go.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Undertaker4 on 2009-11-30 07:38:31

I'm pretty satisfied with Guitar Rig 4/Kontrol right now, for a lot of reasons:

1.  The tones are incredible to me, as well as the user interface and flexibility (the ability to put any effect or amp at any part of the chain for example);

2.  The ability to record a dry track which can then be manipulated tone-wise later and used with other VSTs;

3.  Control Room is one of the biggest leaps in flexibility and tone I've used in a LONG time, and is probably worth the price of GR4 alone;

4.  The ability to have control via a midi controller built for the software gives a lot of options; and

5.  The price was right (I got GR4 for $99 with some DAW software and the controller for $280).

If I were advising Line6, I'd revamp their line and work toward a foot controller -- rack mountable box --- amp that was all meant to work with each other, with a GUI interface and vst support.  Have different levels of foot controllers/boxes and amps (amps that were neutral sounding instead of duplicating the effects stuff) that all worked together at differing price points.  I would go back and remodel the great amps and effects they did previously and update for the more powerful processors, and add more options like sag, bias, etc. that their competitors are adding.  Maybe the winter NAMM will have some of that in store.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by mikey1 on 2009-11-30 10:18:32

I'm thinking of trying the Kontrol. I've been using Native Instruments B4 live with a VST host and it works really well. I was wondering if I'd be able to run Guitar Rig and the VST host at the same time and output it all through the Kontrol. I'd only be playing one at a time though. Is that possible? What about two VSTs? If I could get piano, B3 and guitar tones all coming out of my laptop I'd be a happy guy.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by jesuscares on 2009-11-30 11:38:44

Kidgloves,Please post your list here or priv message me with your list before you do on ebay.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Undertaker4 on 2009-11-30 11:51:39

I'm not able to test this at the moment, but I guess in theory it would work; both the vst and the standalone (if I understand your question) both accept Kontrol.  Maybe someone else has done this.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2009-11-30 12:53:33

HeavyChevy wrote:

Finally.......

I do apologize for the hassle over the past few years.  You know, I love ya like a brother.  Despite my nastyness, I was trying to get you headed in the right direction.

Hell, I do not own anything Fractal yet.  But I do own stuff that crushes L6.

Still.......I would have kept one of those Marshalls for the live stuff !!!

Scott

Hey, I just saw this now.

No problem, my man.  Apology accepted.

And you are right...it was probably a mistake to sell ALL the Marshalls.  I kinda regret selling the JCM2000.  It was the best of the bunch.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by feedingjoey on 2009-11-30 17:49:53

I'm using GR3 Kontrol edition. I have run the the VST and The Stand alone application at the same time on a Quad Core with 4gb ram. That machine is dedicated to only music. It doesn't even have MS office or outlook or anything on it. My DAW is Sonar Studio 8. It's not the fastest machine on the planet but it's respectable. I will tell you this. You better have one hell of a laptop because the both the plug in and stand alone suck up some serious processing power. While I can run two or three instances of the VST at the same time it does tax the s**t out of the machine. But anyway, I did run the stand alone and VST together on accident once. And although it did work, they didn't really play nice. You might Kontact (pun intended) NI for some advise. I think you should be able to do it. But like I said you'll need a powerful computer if your going to avoid crashing.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2009-12-02 07:15:18

Karl_Houseknecht wrote:


Is it a tube amp replacement?  Kinda sorta.  Does it feel like a tube amp like everyone says?  No, not really, at least not that bouncy feeling you get from a real amp. 

I'm taking this observation back now.  With the right tweaking of the power amp sims, it does indeed feel like a tube amp.  It's not an automatic thing, though.  You have to mess with it to get it right.  I'm at the point now where, after tweaking it in for a couple of rehearsals through a solid state QSC power amp and my 412, that I no longer feel any shred of regret in selling my Marshalls.  Finally got that bounce and immediacy to come through last night to the point where I was all smiles from both a tone and feel standpoint.  No more tubes for me.

Here's the rig (not pictured: Ground Control or wedge monitor that I run off the other side of the power amp):

axeandcab.jpg

axerack.jpg



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by keemarcello on 2009-12-02 11:36:22

Said it before and I'd say it again. Nothing approaches the characteristics more than it does.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by feedingjoey on 2009-12-02 12:00:11

Nice Rig Karl. I think a big factor in getting that real tube amp feel also lies with the power amp and speakers you use. So I gotta ask, what is the Avatar loaded with?

Then I also have to ask, and no I'm not trying to be a D**K head here. Now that you've come to the realization that the Axe-fx really does simulate a tube amp in a very very authentic way. Would you say there is some validity to my previous comments about the Line 6 gear being toys and consumer level products and the Axe FX being a totally professional piece of gear? I think it was you that said something about the pocket pod and Guitar Port having a real "Fun" factor to them. I agree. Hot Wheels have a real fun factor to them also, although you won't see me taking my Hot wheels to a NHRA drag race anytime soon. Just like you won't see me taking my XT Live to any gig that really counts anytime soon either. But I wouldn't hesitate to take the Axe-FX to any gig. That's simply because I think it's the right tool for the job. (Others may not agree)

On another note so everyone knows that I really did give the XT Live a fair shot. Since I started my ranting again about a month ago I've spent a LOT of time tweaking the XT. I had an opportunity to use it in a live situation last Saturday where I felt it wouldn't be an issue if the sound wasn't totally killer. At that gig we had several hours to kill before hand with a fair amount of people moving about the venue who didn't care if we noodled around. I also was playing with a guy who graduated from a respectable recording school and works in the industry as a sound engineer. He just so happens to play bass with an LD150. So he was already very familiar with my frustrations. He said he spent over a month of constant tweaking on the bass amp to get the tone he wanted, but did finally achieve it and he is for the most part, happy with it. So I spent 2 hours with a real honest to god sound engineer tweaking the XT in a real world situation. I'm proud to say my previous tweaks had it pretty close. We did a fair amount of noodling in the mid range areas and got the XT's dirty channels to cut through very well, although the engineer made it quite clear that those tweaks would only work with the configuration I was currently using. Any change to any componet in my chain would require another tweak fest. The other Guitar player in the band was using a Risson half stack with a Boss GT5 and various pedals in front of it. The overall result was that my Acoustic sounds (I did use the Variax) were outstanding but all the other stuff was "Thin" compared with the tube amp on the other side of the stage. We tweaked at every break and we were not able to overcome the "thin" issue by the end of the evening. However that was at the front of house. My Tech 21 Power Engine sounded great on stage so if I do this rig again I will mic the amp and ditch going direct (and yes we did try it with and without a DI box, even tried a BBE direct box with the sonic maximizer). The gig went well and I don't think anyone in the audience new the difference. I did have a few people ask how I was getting that great acoustic sound without switching guitars. So overall I'd say. Yea I could gig with the XT and the tones are useable. As a matter of fact it will work fine in most situations.

Over all my opinion is this. The XT Live is a fun toy to play with. It's a great tool to use with the Variax. It is good in most situations provided you use the same set up everytime. The amount of tweaking required to get a useable tone makes the device cumbersome upon initial setup and unreasonable to use for casual pick up situations requiring you to use different backline equipment.

So far (from watching others) this does not appear to be the case with the Axe-FX unit. It appears to work very well in most situations with very little tweaking. So the question is then. If you have the means to use the Axe-FX why would you still bother with the Line 6 gear?

I'll be getting my Axe-FX in January. Until then I will continue to drool all over and be amazed by how good my friends units sound and cherish the moments I get to play on their Axe-FX.

Oh yea and look into the Liquid-Foot as an option for a controler if you own the Axe-FX. It reminds me very much of the Bradshaw I used to own. Be warned it's spendy too!



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by phil_m on 2009-12-02 12:28:50

From the threads I've read over at the Axe-FX forum I've actually gotten the opposite impression that you have.  It seems to me that most people there are constantly saying that you have to be able to put a lot of time and effort tweaking things to get it to sound right.  But I suppose that time and effort are sort of a common denominator for any product that you need to get the most of.

Honestly, I played direct with a POD 2.0, XT, XTL, than X3L for many years,  and I never really had that many issues getting it to sound good in the mix.  I think most of the issues people have have more to do with the systems they're plugging the PODs into than the PODs themselves.  When I was going direct it was with a system that probably cost $50,000-$75,000, though, so I would expect it to sound good.  I guess the thing that sold me on the POD was when I got to hear myself playing through a miced amp in an in-ear system compared to myself through a POD in an in-ear system - there wasn't much difference to me.

My point isn't to be all rah-rah about the PODs, but I am saying that people shouldn't be so quick to completely dismiss them.  I've heard them sound very good, and honestly, from the soundclips I've heard on the Axe forum I'm convinced that there are people who just know how to make any piece of gear sound bad.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2009-12-02 13:00:35

feedingjoey wrote:

So far (from watching others) this does not appear to be the case with the Axe-FX unit. It appears to work very well in most situations with very little tweaking. So the question is then. If you have the means to use the Axe-FX why would you still bother with the Line 6 gear?

I don't know about "very little tweaking".  I guess that's a comparative thing.  I think, as Phil pointed out, that people getting good sounds out of it probably know how to tweak their gear to get a good sound out it no matter what they're playing through.  I'm not pretending to be one of those people, but given the varied amount of gear I've been through, I've been told my tone is consistantly good with all of it.  It's just a matter of degrees.  I probably spent as much time tweaking my Axe in with my band as I did my Marshalls, Spider Valve, X3 Pro, M13, etc.

As far as continuing to bother with Line6 gear, all I have is an X2 Wireless and a TonePort UX2.  Both are excellent products.

I'm controlling the Axe with a Ground Control Pro and two Mission expression pedals.  Works wonderfully.  And my cab has Celestion G12K-100's in it.  I don't think those have anything to do with how the Axe "feel" translates because any tube amp I've played through them feels like a tube amp.

Is the Axe a more pro piece of gear?  Maybe.  Depends on what Pro means.  The X3 Pro isn't shabby either.  True, the Axe has a very robust MIDI and control implementation and has tons of flexibility.  Whether it's more "pro" is up for debate.  For me, it's as "pro" as any other piece of gear that I've used live.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by feedingjoey on 2009-12-02 13:33:35

Keep in mind that most of the guys using the Axe-Fx are tone freaks and perfectionists. So their going to spend a bit more time dialing in their personal nirvana than the average plug and play guy. SO I'm not saying that there is no tweaking involved, Just less for that plug and play guy. I guess what I'm trying to say it that to me, it seems the Axe-FX is far more useable right out of the box. That might not be the case for everyone. I would say, just like Karl has experienced, If you want that dead on just like my old faithful Marshall "FEEL" then yeah, your going to spend some time doing some serious tweaking. But for the most part you can plug it into just about anything and get a pretty damn useable tone without much effort. For me that was not the case with my XT or any line 6 product I've tried. From the response I've gotten in this forum I kinda feel alone in that experience. To your point about the POD. Mine sounds ridiculously great in head phones and in ears. Better in fact than any miced amp I've owned. But coming out of a PA or guitar amp speaker is a whole other issue. If I could get my POD in the PA to sound like it does in cans. It would be a slam dunk. I'd use the POD and laugh at anyone who didn't. But the fact is what you hear through in ears ain't whats coming out of the FOH. I don't care how expensive the system is. You gotta pull those in ears out and spend some time out front to really appreciate that (I'm not saying you haven't done that either). I did lots of that this weekend. There was even a big difference in what was coming out of my amp VS the front of house. I did set the XT's output for studio direct. Which totally hosed the tone coming out of the Power engine which sounds great when the POD is set to Power amp combo (or whatever its called). BUT I just tweaked the EQ on the Power engine until I got what I wanted. So why couldn't I just do that with the PA? I don't know. We tweaked all night and it was still thin. Not bad, but thin when compared with the Tube amp 10 feet away. And that may have been the whole problem. Perhaps if we didn't have a tube amp on the other side of the stage we'd have never noticed. Like i said the tone wasn't bad and If I use it again I'll just Mic the Power engine. I would have done that Saturday but didn't have a extra mic with me.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by phil_m on 2009-12-02 13:52:39

I should have clarified - I've heard out of the FOH and monitor wedges as well.  I've also heard it on live recordings we made.  To me, the difference between what I'd hear out of those things wasn't that different.  Of course, I did notice a difference in the feel between hearing myself from an amp and a monitor or whatever.

I do think that the style of music makes a big difference as well.  I generally don't play stuff where I'm using a lot of gain, and I always think it's harder to get a saturated tone to sound good than a clean one.  So that could be part of it as well.

Of the Axe-FX recordings I've listened to, the only ones that I've heard that I think really sound like a real miced up amp were one guy's Stevie Ray Vaughn tone and another guy who played a tele into a Plexi model.  Those were the only ones that seemed to pop out to me.  All of the other ones I've heard still have that direct quality to them, which honestly kind of surprises me because one of the things I always hear people rave about is the whole IR cab thing on the Axe.  I just don't understand how it can sound like it does on those recordings, or why people would think it sounds good.  I could put an SM57 in front of an amp and get a better recording than many of the clips I've heard.  I just don't get it.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by feedingjoey on 2009-12-02 14:43:53

As far as continuing to bother with Line6 gear, all I have is an X2 Wireless and a TonePort UX2.  Both are excellent products.

I'm controlling the Axe with a Ground Control Pro and two Mission expression pedals.  Works wonderfully.  And my cab has Celestion G12K-100's in it.  I don't think those have anything to do with how the Axe "feel" translates because any tube amp I've played through them feels like a tube amp.

Karl,

I wasn't meaning why are "YOU" personally bothering with line 6. It was meant as a general statement.

And I have to disagree with you on the speakers. You just said that any Tube amp you played through those speakers feels like a tube amp. Well yeah, a tube amp through a Guitar voiced speaker better have the tube amp feel or you've got something very wrong. But we're not talking about a tube amp through those speakers. Were talking about a simulation through those speakers. Take your celestions out of that cab and throw in some stock 12" speakers from your home stereo. Throw your JCM2000 on top and tell me your Marshall still "Feels" the same. With my JCM 800 I've run 4 25W green backs, 4 Vintage 30's and 4 G12-75's all had a different feel, response and tone. So if speakers make a difference in the real thing, then in theory they should make a difference with a modeler. Isn't that why they model different speaker cabinets? But the reason I asked this question is because it has been said that modelers tend to work better with Full range speakers. That in itself could eliminate the different flavors you are able to achieve with a tube amp by changing speakers in your cabinet (unless you use a model). Your celestions are voiced for Guitar not full range like a PA speaker. So I find it cool and exciting that you achieved the "Feel" aspect without using a PA speaker. My experience has only been with the axe-fx and full range speakers. Now I'm very curious to see if the same speaker cabinet tone, feel and response changes I experienced with my JCM 800 will come through when using the JCM 800 model in the Axe-FX and the real speaker cabinet. If it does I would have to say that is REALLY COOL! For the guys who are just stuck in the world of having to have that 4x12 on stage that could be a big thing.

Just for the record did you ever get the "Feel" your experiencing with the Axe-FX from any of the line 6 products you owned?

As for defining PRO to me it has to do with the quality and sturdiness of the box itself, the quality of the models, the quality of the effects, the control capabilities and the flexibility there in,  the future expandability of the product and the companies ability to respond quickly to customer service issues. In other words, is this modeler going to be with me for the next 5 years or am I going to end up cheating on her in a year?



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by feedingjoey on 2009-12-02 15:57:10

Phil,

Personally I would never judge a piece of gear on something I saw on youtube. How do you even know that what your listening to is real? I could grab a killer high end amp record something sweet and then video myself playing in front of some total piece of crap amp but throw up the audio from the killer amp. How could you prove I wasn't getting that tone from that crap amp? You can't and therefore nothing you see on youtube could ever be used to prove anything tone wise. Well other than maybe prove most people have no clue of what their doing and the videos they put up do more harm than good....  Personally I'm kinda tired of everyone talking about what they saw on youtube. I know it's hard to get ones hands on the Axe-FX but that really is the only way to experience what it is capable of. Or go see Zappa or any of the other endorsees. I'm sure they will be recording with this little monster soon enough too. Experience it in your hands or from the hand a real pro and then form an opinion. Youtube is a waste of everyones time.

Clean tones are a snap to get with the Line 6 gear. It's the saturated gain tones that I've always had trouble with. So I agree 100%. At least now I'm cutting through the mix and that really was the problem. But I will say I'm still not cutting through like I did with the other gear. So L6 works but it's not my first choice of gear.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Matt_J71 on 2009-12-02 16:56:32

feedingjoey - are you Guitar-Tiz under a new name? You seem to spew a lot of rhetoric for someone that doesn't even own an Axe-Fx.

Everyone here would take an Axe-Fx over a PODxt or X3 Live if given the choice - that isn't even up for debate - but don't you understand that not everyone has $2000 lying around to blow on an Axe-Fx? You don't need to keep coming here and telling us that the Axe-Fx sounds better than the POD - we already know.

There are also some people that have had good luck running a PODxt or X3 live and get great tones. As good as an Axe-Fx? Probably not, but not tinny and thin like what you are describing. Lincoln Brewster is now using an Axe-Fx, but I don't think anyone would have ever described his tone as thin and tinny when he was using the X3.

As for your YouTube conspiracy theory - yeah, hypothetically someone could do a fake video using different gear, but that seems pretty unlikely. I agree that you can't really judge gear by YouTube, but that is just because most people on YouTube sound terrible no matter what gear they are using.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by phil_m on 2009-12-02 17:48:09

Oops, posted this reply in the wrong place...



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by phil_m on 2009-12-02 17:50:38

I hear what you're saying about Youtube, but actually a lot of the recordings I listened to ones that people put up on the "Recordings" section of the Axe forum.  They were mostly mp3s or high quality digital streams.  So, in my opinion, they should give some idea of what the unit can do.  Now I think some of it is that people aren't that skilled at recording, which is understandable.  The thing I didn't understand is that people on the Axe FX are like "that sounds great" to these clips.  I suppose they're being kind, but I guess I would expect some constructive criticism.  I have actually seen more of that kind of stuff on these boards I guess.

I'm not trying to bash the Axe-FX at all.  I'm sure it can sound great just based on the fact that there are people I respect who love it.  I just wish that what I hear about it seemed a little more balance and less hyped up.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by feedingjoey on 2009-12-02 19:41:14

Matt,

Why the hostility dude? I have no Idea who Guitar Tiz is. I was here saying GOOD things finallyabout the XTL. So if I understand this right someone says something negative about a L6 product and the people in the forum are crappy to him. He says something positive about the product and people are still crappy to him. So then am I to assume that all tried and true line 6 forum guys are just crappy people in general? Because that is pretty much what you just presented to me. I really don't want to believe that. I think Karl and Phil and others like them just might be pretty good guys. But you know what they say, actions speak louder than words.  I'm really sorry you don't have the funds available to buy an axe FX. I'm also sorry I get to play with one 2-3 times a week and you don't. I'm also sorry you appear so jealous about that. I'm sure if you really wanted one so bad and that everyone here would drop their line 6 gear and buy one right away like you say they will. Then you and everybody else would make it happen. Like I said. I'm getting mine in January. If you don't think I'm making some sacrifices to get it your crazy.

Didn't you just say Lincoln Brewster ditched his X3 for Axe-FX? And your pointing the finger at me for saying how much better the Axe-FX is over the POD? What did you just say? Isn't that the exact same thing. Hey man I'm not saying anything that hasn't already been said over and over in this thread. By the way just so you know exactly where I stand. I think the Line 6 stuff has it's place in the world and for many people it's great and does exactly what they need it too. Personally I set my expectations too high for the product. When it didn't live up to my expectation I was disappointed. However that just means I need to adjust myexpectation to fit the products capabilities and continue on. That is what I've done.

I never said my tone was Tinny. I said when compared side by side to a respectable tube amp on stage in a real live situation my tone was THIN!If you don't know the difference between Thin and Tinny perhaps we should assume your the guy putting up those videos on YouTube. I clearly said that if that tube amp wasn't there we probably would have never noticed that my tone was thinner. I am now getting pretty good results from the XTL.

While we're on the subject of YouTube. You said it was pretty unlikely that someone would fake a video. It would also be pretty unlikely that a German company would reverse engineer another company's products, rebuild them and sell them as their own Idea. You ever heard of Behringer? Take a look at the POD and the V Amp and tell me what you think? That's exactly what going on. Well I hate to disappoint you but I guarantee that there are many people playing guitars on youtube that ain't what they represent. And I guarantee there are many doctored videos out there selling products. So My "Conspiracy theory" aint so far fetched when you put it in perspective. People suck. They lie cheat and steal when it comes down to money and yes I'm sure that includes some youtube videos showing Chinese knockoffs and other products. I guess it works because there are so many suckers that constantly talk about what they saw on Youtube.

Go have a Beer. That is if your old enough to enjoy one legally.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Matt_J71 on 2009-12-02 20:55:59

I have no issue with you saying the Axe-Fx is better than the POD. If you go back and read my last post again you might actually see that I agreed with you several times that the Axe-Fx is better. I AGREED with you.  I have no problem with someone coming on this board and saying the Axe-Fx is better than the X3 - you just have a condescending, long-winded way of saying it over and over and over that gets under my skin (especially when you don't even own one yet....oooh,I am so jealous of the Axe-Fx that you don't even own...LOL).

You seemed to have missed my point about Lincoln Brewster - yes he ditched his X3 for an Axe-Fx, but my point - HIS TONE WASN'T THIN when he did use the X3. You have spent thousands of words on this thread saying that you find it basically impossible to get a good live tone with a POD - I was simply pointing out the obvious - that just because YOU are not capable of getting a useable live tone with it doesn't mean it can't be done.

I am not loyal to Line 6 or any other company. I do own an X3, but I have never been a fanboy. I just think it is the best modeler available for under $500. If you want to come here and bash Line 6 it won't hurt my feelings. I acknowledge that the POD has flaws and isn't perfect. It deserves plenty of criticism.

I probably will buy an Axe-Fx one of these days, but I just have different priorites right now. I am 38 years old, have a wife and family, own a house, own a brand new Mustang GT, live a good life. If I really wanted an Axe-Fx I could afford to buy one - I just have other things that are more important right now. For now I am content with the sounds I can get with the X3.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2009-12-02 21:22:19

feedingjoey wrote:

So if speakers make a difference in the real thing, then in theory they should make a difference with a modeler. Isn't that why they model different speaker cabinets?

Except I don't use the cab models through my cab.  That would be...not very smart.   I only use the preamp and poweramp sims.  So yes, it stands to reason that if my real guitar preamp/poweramp combos feel like a tube amp through my current cab, then the Axe should too, so long as I'm not using it's cab sims.

Seriously, are you Guitar Tiz?



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by feedingjoey on 2009-12-02 22:35:45

Umm not necessarily Karl. I understand your logic. But just because a real tube amp sounds and feels one way through them it doesn't necessarily mean that a modeled version of it will too. As a matter of fact more often than not it's not the case. For example Tech 21 says either use their specially voiced celestion speakers or use only full range speakers with their products regardless if your using the cab sims or not. And when I had the issues with the Digitech RP14D they told me the same thing. Don't use guitar voiced speakers even if you don't intend to use the cab sims. Their explanation was that the frequency range of a guitar speaker was too limited to produce the full aspect of the model. They also said don't use a tube power amp as it will introduce too much compression. They were right. A solid state power amp and some full range PA speakers made all the difference in the world. Line 6 compensates for the type of amp / cabinet you use too. That's why you tell the device what your plugging into. So everybody address that issue in one way or another. Now I agree with you that in theory the amp model should respond just like the real thing through a guitar cabinet. And of course don't use the cab sims because you have a real cab. But I've personally never had it work that way with any of my modeling gear. Maybe it's different for you. So until now until now I've not heard anyone claim that any of the other modelers "felt" like a tube amp  regardless of what speaker they were using or regardless if they were using cabs sims or not. I have however experienced that feeling with the Axe-FX through PA Speakers. So if I'm getting the results I claim and your getting the results you claim that tells me Fractal got it right. It's great news because it goes against everything I've been taught about modelers and speakers. It opens up way more doors and gives player lots of options in my opinion.

Honestly I have no Idea who Guitat-Tiz is. Point me to one of his posts. You got me curious now.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by dasvox on 2009-12-02 23:25:22

Honestly I would have sworn Wardick was Tiz. My bad if I'm off.

I find it telling that he blew Matt off.

I love Craigs List. One day I'll have an Ultra. However in the meantime Podfarm will do for however many guitarists I need for the process of recording a drummer doing what they do so that we can later mic up the tube pushed 412s.

You are long winded though. You know who you are. Paragraphs rock.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Slingy on 2009-12-03 00:44:52

There is no way that feeding joey is Tiz. I doubt Tiz even has an AX by now, or he'd be here holding it over our heads. Actually, I'm a little worried we havn't heard from him in a while. Totally out of character.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by feedingjoey on 2009-12-03 01:04:06

Matt_J71 wrote:

You seemed to have missed my point about Lincoln Brewster - yes he ditched his X3 for an Axe-Fx, but my point - HIS TONE WASN'T THIN when he did use the X3. You have spent thousands of words on this thread saying that you find it basically impossible to get a good live tone with a POD - I was simply pointing out the obvious - that just because YOU are not capable of getting a useable live tone with it doesn't mean it can't be done.

I didn't miss your point at all. Did you hear Lincoln play with his X3 right next to someone else with an all tube amp? Perhaps if you did his X3 might have sounded a bit THIN too but then again maybe it wouldn't. Like I said I think my XT only sounded thin because I was right next to a tube amp. It sounds great when I'm the only guitar player. But ya know when ya have the real deal right there to contrast off it just might be possible that the real deal could actually sound better than the POD. But hell no, not in this forum. It must be as you say, that I am certainly not CAPABLE of getting a useable live tone. So forgive me for not bowing to the almight Brewster who can make his X3 sound better than a real tube amp!  Because everyone knows that the POD XT and X3 sound WAY better than a real tube amp. That is if they're in the hands a true master. How could I have been so stupid. BTW I never said others weren't capable of getting GREAT tone from their Line 6 PODS. I've heard some awesome stuff both live and recorded! So where the hell did you get that?

If you look back you will also notice that I only had an issue with 1 aspect of my live tone. That's a far cry from not being capable of getting a live tone. That problem is resolved for the most part. But I still think it took way to much wasted time and tweaking to achieve. So i'll be sticking to my guns when I say the POD is pain in the arse to work with. Would I recomend it anyone else? NO WAY. My expierence with line 6 has been horrible. That's not me BASHING line 6. It's me stating MY experience.

I know you agreed with me that the Axe - FX was a better product. That was never questioned. But you made the point of making an issue out of it. Pretty much everyone here says the same thing. So if it gets under your skin so bad when I say it, DON'T READ MY POSTS. And I know you think I'm stupid but really I didn't think you were telling me Brewster ditched his X3 for the axe-FX  because the axe-FX sucked and he wanted to dumb himself down. I think you were pretty much saying the Axe FX was a superior product too. So I say your calling the kettle black. Your just as guilty of it as I am.

I probably will buy an Axe-Fx one of these days, but I just have different priorites right now. I am 38 years old, have a wife and family, own a house, own a brand new Mustang GT, live a good life. If I really wanted an Axe-Fx I could afford to buy one - I just have other things that are more important right now. For now I am content with the sounds I can get with the X3.

Please don't. Then I will have to deal with you on that forum too. And TMI dude. It's great you have a wife and kids but I'm thinking they really don't want to be involved in this so please keep your personal life personal. Like I said, go have a beer and relax.

Remember Actions speak louder than words.

Like others here Your actions SCREAMED really loud.

FF



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by feedingjoey on 2009-12-03 01:26:22

So yeah dasvox I'm long winded but that just the way I am. Don't fault me for it bro. I think your cool just the way you are. Goofy Rabbit Eared Bondage Mask and all. I wouldn't change a thing.

I got no problem with anyone here until they start throwing rocks. I was just having a conversation about speakers with Karl. I really don't believe there were even any rocks around for me to throw. Then Whamo this Mustang GT flies by and throws a rock right at me. WTF?

Why you guys all gotta go conspiracy theory on people? Can't this Tiz guy just Be Tiz. Why TF would he have to come back as someone else? What is he Buddhist? WTF did this guy do anyway? Perhaps he voiced an opinion that wasn't the groups common opinion? I don't know I'm just guessing. Well cause I'm long winded and all.

Have good night Y'all.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2009-12-03 04:40:49

feedingjoey wrote:

Line 6 compensates for the type of amp / cabinet you use too.

Only if you're using cab sims.  Otherwise the output modes on the POD don't matter a hill of beans.  Well, the difference between the front and poweramp modes do alter the gain structure a bit, but that's just the difference in level you need between going into a preamp vs straight into the power section.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Matt_J71 on 2009-12-03 05:21:13

No Karl  - you are wrong!! You can't possibly know more than Joey. If he says you sound bad with guitar speakers then you must sound bad!!! LOL.

Joey - I only brought up personal stuff because you implied that I couldn't afford an Axe-Fx and that I wasn't old enough to drink a beer. My comments were intended to refute both of those implications. I am old enough and have enough income to buy an Axe-Fx, but I have chosen to spend my money on other things right now. That was my point, but I am not surprised that you couldn't put 2 and 2 together and comprehend it though.

Guitar-Tiz was a long-winded guy like you, a total know-it-all that argued with everyone about everything and would never admit to being wrong about anything. He also famously didn't own an Axe-Fx, but always told us how he was getting one soon. As far as I know, he still doesn't have one, and it has been years.

G-T was also famous for contradicting everything he said, claiming he didn't say something he just said in the last paragraph, and not being able to read anyone else's post and understand what they just said.  THAT is why you remind me of him........because you have all the same qualities.

I love how you keep saying "actions speak louder than words" when all I have done is write words on the internet......LOL. So in your universe my words are louder than my words???? Great logic there.........



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by nuser101 on 2009-12-03 05:54:16

I'm not getting an Axe-FX, since my band just broke up and there would be no point in it. Having used both L6 and Boss gear over the years, I've seen these discussions (minus the Axe-FX part until recently) all the time on both boards - thin this, cocked wah that, fizz here, EQ compensation there, and the issue is never resolved.

On the other hand, if you visit the Axe boards, somebody may bring something like this up once in a while, but there's usually a response that the original poster listens to and says "Oh, thanks for that, it works now."

Fractal Audio must be doing something right, and if I ever start to play out again, I'll get one. I've seen and heard enough.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by wardick on 2009-12-03 06:03:14

dasvox wrote:

Honestly I would have sworn Wardick was Tiz. My bad if I'm off.

Now that is the most offensive thing I ever read in these forums.       



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by nuser101 on 2009-12-03 06:17:52

wardick wrote:

dasvox wrote:

Honestly I would have sworn Wardick was Tiz. My bad if I'm off.

Now that is the most offensive thing I ever read in these forums.       

See, the problem is that you guys don't understand religion



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by godprobe on 2009-12-05 21:17:29

phil_m wrote:

[...] The thing I didn't understand is that people on the Axe FX are like "that sounds great" to these clips.  I suppose they're being kind, but I guess I would expect some constructive criticism.  I have actually seen more of that kind of stuff on these boards I guess.

[...]

I agree.  I rarely post replies on people's submitted clips, Axe-Fx or otherwise.

Partially because I don't trust my computer speakers.

Partially because I don't fully trust my own ears (24 hours after a tweaking session, everything sounds different).

Mostly because people may have radically different preferences of what is "good."

And a little bit because in 98% of cases... meh... it sounds like everything else I've ever heard.

I only really pay attention to the clips and comments of about five or six people on the Axe forum.  Some of the ones who are definitely *not* in my list might surprise you (no, I won't list them).

I'd love to see a more constructive criticism and suggestion based forum.  Posting clips for general critique is usually quite unhelpful.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Slingy on 2009-12-07 11:42:28

Here's a clip from a guitar forum that I frequent. John is the Hectic Watermelon guitarist. Super cool band.

http://soundclick.com/share?songid=8444857



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2009-12-07 14:35:38

That guy has two Egnater Mod 50 heads.  Sick!  The Axe clip sounded nice too.  Another example of how those that can get a good tone on quality gear understand how to dial it in on pretty much ANY quality gear.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Slingy on 2009-12-08 10:49:57

I like his egnater clips the best. Theres alot of sounds in those amps wow.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by acousticglue on 2009-12-10 04:22:17

One of the best tones I ever saw out live was a guy who played strat with Marshall amp and Pod XT-he mic'ed the amp and ran pod thru PA. Great sound. The other is a guy who just uses old Marshall stack and beat up strat. So, for me, there you have it. But I own a Pod XT Pro and a VG99. No amps do I own. I record and do not play out and have fun with what I have for last 10-12 years. Gear has changed and I change if I think will benefit from it. Usually my buddies end up with older gear at great price.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Slingy on 2009-12-10 11:37:56

Very pleased to see PODXT in the credits along with Mesa Boogie amps in Devin Townsends Ziltoid The Omniscient. Some serious ass kicking metal there. Take that fractal, lol just kidding. Seriously though, this album is insane.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viaRKlgQo3E



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by GuitarDojo on 2009-12-18 07:43:36

Slingy wrote:

Very pleased to see PODXT in the credits along with Mesa Boogie amps in Devin Townsends Ziltoid The Omniscient. Some serious *** kicking metal there. Take that fractal, lol just kidding. Seriously though, this album is insane.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viaRKlgQo3E

Uh...DevonTownsend switched to AXE-FX a few months ago!

From the Devon Townsend forum

[quote from "The Dev"]"

So I'm getting one for rehearsals running in front of a power amp and cab. Just for ease of setup in a smaller space.

Anyone know anything about it that could help? tips etc?

Seems like it could be a cool thing to get into.

d"



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Slingy on 2009-12-18 09:34:33

Haha cool. His new stuff is amazing. Love his work. Have you heard any of the Devin Townsend Project, fantastic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FapZvIKSrx0



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by spaceatl on 2009-12-18 09:37:35

GuitarDojo wrote:

Slingy wrote:

Very pleased to see PODXT in the credits along with Mesa Boogie amps in Devin Townsends Ziltoid The Omniscient. Some serious *** kicking metal there. Take that fractal, lol just kidding. Seriously though, this album is insane.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viaRKlgQo3E

Uh...DevonTownsend switched to AXE-FX a few months ago!

From the Devon Townsend forum

[quote from "The Dev"]"

So I'm getting one for rehearsals running in front of a power amp and cab. Just for ease of setup in a smaller space.

Anyone know anything about it that could help? tips etc?

Seems like it could be a cool thing to get into.

d"

Huh?

Posting to a forum about getting an AXE-FX "for rehearsals" doesn't seem to be quite the same thing as appearing in album credits...How do you come to the absolution that he switched...Sounds like a different tool for a different situation to me...



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by GuitarDojo on 2009-12-18 09:56:23

He's got to learn how to use it first!

http://www.fractalaudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=10678

Lovinthe new Addicted CD!!!! Great jamz!



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Slingy on 2009-12-18 14:41:31

I have no doubt that his tone will be massive, whatever he uses. There's a nice shred and metal following going on there, and lots of pro endorsements, too cool. Pro's know good tools and how and when to use them.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Cerg64 on 2010-01-07 10:21:32

Axe-FX...sounds like an antacid pill, or something that happens when you have indigestion.

No, seriously, I just bought the X3L...I havent even used it yet as I took it out of the box late last night and downloaded my updates. I work on a limited budget...very limited as recording and playing is a hobby for me. I have been doing it for 33 years and have tried all sorts of effects etc. I was kind of disappointed to hear that there is a much better piece of equipment out there that would make me sell my newest addition. I wont. I learned my lesson on getting rid of things and wishing I had them back. I record live and multitrack in my basement with my brother (drummer). As I havent fired up my X3L yet I cant attest to its sound quality but its features are exactly what I want for recording purposes. it fits a small budget home studio perfectly and I cant wait to get the hell out of work to go home and rig it in!! Good luck with whatever you choose.

Cerg



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by LoonyBin-Fizzbin on 2010-01-07 10:28:48



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by wardick on 2010-01-07 15:11:45

Here is a parody of the actual commercial.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Matt_J71 on 2010-01-07 15:27:34

That is hilarious.........my wife always sees me checking out the Axe-Fx on their website and ebay. She started calling it the "A$$-Fx" about 2 months ago. She also calls it "Rectal Audio" instead of Fractal, so it is the Rectal Audio A$$-FX....LOL



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2010-01-07 17:29:59

Matt_J71 wrote:

the Rectal Audio A$$-FX.

LOL!! Outstanding!

Really makes you think about the rectifier model.  Or should I say: rectum-fryer?



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by donfrantz on 2010-01-07 19:24:27

That is funny!



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by wardewing1963 on 2010-01-20 08:34:04

ah yes, here we see agian boys and girls, the age old story of the emporer's new clothes.  "if EVERYBODY jumped off the bay bridge, would YOU jump too?"  (my mother, circa 1973)  I'll bet you good money, (of which you obviously have more than you know what to do with) that you can dial in an tone on your ax fx, and give me five mins with your "outdated" x3l and I'll have a tone so close no mere civilian will ever be able to hear the difference.  don't get me wrong, there's a place in the world for gear snobbery, it just ain't all that welcome in my world, just my two cents people.

Mr. Wonderful



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2010-01-20 10:37:21

Mr. Wonderful,

I can tell you, at least from my experiences, and that's all I will rely on, that there's no snobbery here.  I was one of the Axe-Fx's strongest critics...until I actually bought one and used it.  I don't ascribe it any magical properties, nor do I see it as the be-all, end-all of tone.  Honestly, it doesn't matter where you get your tone from, so long as you enjoy what you're hearing.  If I could get from the PODs I've owned: PODxt, XT Live, a few X3 Lives, X3 Pro, etc, what I'm easily getting from my Axe-Fx, I'd still own a POD.  But I don't.  Hey, to each his own.  If the POD works for you, that's great.

And no, I don't have more money than I know what to do with.  I did own a bunch of all tube Marshalls and effects pedals galore, and found that all that very real and very respected gear cost way more than the Axe-Fx and all the trimmings.  And yet, nobody would say owners of real amps and effects have more money than they "know what to do with".

Take any one of those videos from Mark Day (samhill) referenced above and get the same tone from your POD and post the results please.  It will take you longer than 5 minutes, if you can get it.  You've thrown down the gauntlet and said you can.  Time to put your tweaking where your mouth is.  I say this as a friendly challenge, not in any tone-snobby way.  Again, you said you could.  It isn't bragging if you can do it.   I look forward to hearing the results.

wardewing1963 wrote:

ah yes, here we see agian boys and girls, the age old story of the emporer's new clothes.  "if EVERYBODY jumped off the bay bridge, would YOU jump too?"  (my mother, circa 1973)  I'll bet you good money, (of which you obviously have more than you know what to do with) that you can dial in an tone on your ax fx, and give me five mins with your "outdated" x3l and I'll have a tone so close no mere civilian will ever be able to hear the difference.  don't get me wrong, there's a place in the world for gear snobbery, it just ain't all that welcome in my world, just my two cents people.

Mr. Wonderful



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by bobwootton on 2010-01-21 01:57:04

You are so right, though the observation that the products serve rather different market segments is also correct.  Something four times the price should be better.

I have both an Axe-FX and a Pod X3 Pro.  The Axe-Fx was brought to my notice on the HRI forum when I was trying to sort our the issue of gaining midi expression pedal control through my Ground Control floorboard over both the X3P's channels.  No thanks at all to Line 6, this was resolved yesterday after owning the X3P for over eighteen months.  I'm using a Midi Solutions Event Processor to overcome the X3P's midi mapping shortcomings, albeit at additional cost.

The X3P lives in my rack alongside several other high-end/collectible preamps and processors, all switched by a Voodoolabs GCX switcher and sitting in the Axe-Fx's loop.  I only persisted with it as I sometimes use Variaxes and with the X3P I can change guitar patches from the floorboard.  Fortunately, I'm now done with struggling with control of the last reluctant component of my rig so I can get back to what I want to do which is play.

I hope you enjoy your Axe-Fx as much as I do.  Don't forget to keep your Axe-Fx firmware updated - each release is like a mini-Christmas as there's always a new or better amp or effect.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by pflau on 2010-01-23 10:49:41

If the Axe-Fx has a portable version that weights no more than 5lb, no bigger than a DVD boxset, and can be controlled completely with a computer, and really sounds like a tube amp, I am buying one today. Money no object.

But as things are, I am just not in their market. So I'll stick with my POD for now.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by DaGuy on 2010-01-24 07:59:12

It's clear that a high dollar unit should provide a better simulation but other things factor in including this less talked about one:

High Dollar Great Tone Predisposition :  This is what happens when one spends a ton of money on gear and then our humanity

kicks in and biases us towards attributing more merits than the new gadget really deserves. I just experience this is on a non Line 6 unit.

A couple of tones sounded awesome -to a point.  When I turned on my tube amps I could tell that I was just kidding myself and

finding a sub conscience  reason to rationalize the large expense and keep the new toy.  I tweaked it enough seeking good tone and allowing

for the fact that a simulation is just a simulation and it still didn't measure up so I dumped it and now I truly feel better. 

I'm not saying this the case at hand but it's something to watch out for.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by wardewing1963 on 2010-01-24 13:51:02

1+ for daguy the emperors new clothes, if you can't instantly hear the difference, it's just that you're poor peasant ears aren't sophisticated enough to hear!  and the places we play, in the winter especially, they're small, if I cranked a tube amp to get the tones I use, my band would be basically unemployable.  my drummer has a digital kit, and we can cover everything from the tiniest lounge to the waterfoul festival in easton where we had a whole city block to fill with sound, and bonus, regardless of volume, it all still sounds the same!



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by aaron__aardvark on 2010-02-06 20:42:09

Anybody see the Fractal ad in the latest (I think) issue of Guitar Player magazine?  There is a small picture of Hadley/Rad Hockensmith plugging the AxeFx there.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by toneman2121 on 2010-02-06 21:10:24

76, 000 and counting

got to be the most veiwed  thread in history



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by eward on 2010-02-12 10:05:42

x3l 500 ..  axefx 2000 with no foot control, you cant compare them. the x3l is the best in it class.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2010-02-12 11:25:20

eward wrote:

x3l 500 ..  axefx 2000 with no foot control, you cant compare them. the x3l is the best in it class.

I will both agree and disagree with this statement.  And the resulting flame war will keep us warm for months, maybe even melt all this snow we have here.  (Please, I'm not saying this as flame bait.  Just an observation from personal experience.)

You can compare them, at a sonic level.  The Axe wins hands down for amp, cab, and effect model quality.  As a former POD user of many years I never got my POD sounding as good as the Axe does straight out of the box.  In fact, my tube amps never sounded this good out of the box.  And it only gets better with tweaking.  For years now, I've been wary of the Axe-Fx hype.  Then I found out it wasn't hype.  Sure, it's pricey.  So is a good tube amp, cab, effects, and switching system, from which you don't have as varied of a sonic pallete or as many options for recording and live use.

However, you are right about the best value for $500.  That belongs to the X3 Live.  For $500 you get a complete amp and effects system that has multiple applications.  And a free VST plugin.  That's an incredible bargain.

We live in a great time to be guitarists, where the bar to having great live and recorded tone has been lowered such that any common joe can afford it.  Almost all the modelers out there can be made to sound good.  And I hope the Line6 guys here don't take offense to any of this because I love how they take care of me as a customer.  If they could make a modeling unit that sounded as good for that $500 price tag, I'd buy it.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by stumpsout on 2010-02-12 12:08:18

aaron__aardvark wrote:

Anybody see the Fractal ad in the latest (I think) issue of Guitar Player magazine?  There is a small picture of Hadley/Rad Hockensmith plugging the AxeFx there.

yeah, I caught that...one day I'll be seeing for myself, too.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by eward on 2010-02-12 17:05:57

whats up karl i had to jump ship over at the other site fricking cw was killing me



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2010-02-12 17:16:13

eward wrote:

whats up karl i had to jump ship over at the other site fricking cw was killing me

Cocked what?   LOL!



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by ajox on 2010-02-13 12:05:20

Hi all!

I just got the new Atomic FR that was made for use with the axe FX but I'm using the X3 thru it and it sounds wonderfull!!!

I'd just like to share my opinion about the whole AXE fx vs Line 6 thing.

People always try to compare things, and well maybe they're right cause these modellers emulate real amps, so it's obvious they try to compare it with the real thing.

It really doesn't matter IMHO, for example let's say that the line 6 model of a Mesa amp (wich one doesn't matter) is sounds about 90% accurate and then the AXE fx's is 98% accurate, to me it doesn't really matter! if the patch sounds good then what more do you want, also 90% accurate doesn't mean that it's sounds 10% worse then the orriginal it can even sound 10% better!

I go with most of the people on the forum here that you shouldn't really be comparing the 2 units since they're in a different class.

But for those who really want to do that then ask yourself this: are you really willing to pay 1,5k more for a peace of gear that probably sounds better BUT 99% of your audience that you'll ever play for won't hear the difference?...   yes? then buy an axe fx and have fun! Me, I'll save that 1,5k so I can pay my rent (just kidding)

Cheers

Jochen



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2010-02-13 12:38:42

ajox wrote:

let's say that the line 6 model of a Mesa amp (wich one doesn't matter) is sounds about 90% accurate and then the AXE fx's is 98% accurate, to me it doesn't really matter! if the patch sounds good then what more do you want, also 90% accurate doesn't mean that it's sounds 10% worse then the orriginal it can even sound 10% better!

ask yourself this: are you really willing to pay 1,5k more for a peace of gear that probably sounds better BUT 99% of your audience that you'll ever play for won't hear the difference?.

For comparison purposes, it's kinda not the point to compare how each models a particular amp and how close that is.  That's insanity because even two of the same amps can sound very different.  And I kinda agree with you on the second point about much of the audience not caring.  However...

That's only assuming you were able to dial in a really great tone on each unit and make it work the way you wanted it to.  I spent years working with the POD and refining my live and recorded tones and while I had good results I never really got it where I wanted it.  Compare to the Axe, where I spent probably less than an hour on a set of 4 live tones that sounded every bit as good as my tube amps, which cost way more than the Axe.

Another comparison kind of thing here:  The X3 does some amp models well, the ToneLab does some others well and more organically, and the GT-10 does effects and live play well.  But I wished I had that all in one box.  The Axe does everything well.  High gain, mid gain, crunch, shimmer, clean, effects, cab models, live options, recording...everything.  I used to think people were exaggerating about this, but they're not.

So yes, considering I was willing to pay over 3K more for a four channel all-tube rig plus effects pedals, I was willing to pay less than that for a rig that sounded just as good and wasn't as limited.  You compare it that way, and the Axe is a bargain.

I bet that Reactor FR sounds good with the X3 Live.  That's what that  unit needs because of the mic models.  You basically have two good  sounding options with that setup: straight to PA or FRFR system like the  ReactorFR using Studio Direct, or cab models off and into a traditional  guitar poweramp and cab.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by BigChas52 on 2010-02-13 12:40:28

Forgive me if this has been covered (this is a looooooong thread).

I own and use and X3L.  Currently it is my main rig, and I am satisfied with the quality of the results I get from it.  I send one XLR FoH, and an analog out to a small power amp and monitor wedge to move some nearby air.  We have a great sound man, and that helps a lot.

I am not a professional, gigging musician.  I play 2-3 times per month with our church's worship team.  I consider myself to be an average player; nothing special.

On of my team mates has an Ultra, and it sounds amazing.  I've played it, and I like it.  If I was making $$ at this, I would probably make the investment in one.  When all is said and done, a properly tricked out Ultra rig will cost 4-6 times as my X3L did.  I simply cannot justify that kind of investment for someone who is basically a hobbyist, with a performance outlet that glorifies God, and He wouldn't care if I was playing through a Fender Frontman.

That said, folks will come up to me and compliment me on my playing and my tone.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by toneman2121 on 2010-02-13 20:33:40

you get what you pay for...thread closed



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by timowens on 2010-02-13 20:41:23

"you get what you pay for..."   Well said!

"thread closed"   Now that's wishful thinking



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by toneman2121 on 2010-02-14 08:01:50

i know, i was tryin' to be funny



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by timowens on 2010-02-14 11:03:28

Me too.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by toneman2121 on 2010-02-14 11:52:58

me three...woo woo woo woo woo



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by porcytree on 2010-02-16 06:50:59

Hey there Karl

Not seen you around GT central lately..........have you given up on us guys over there?

Hows the MK II going for you? Did you get the "vibration" noise sorted out.

Have to say the more I hear demos etc of the MK II the more they appeal to me.Always loved my Flextone (and L6 modelling/cabs in general) but I really love my Laney (all valve).

I use my GT just for fx these days (modelling just isn't doing it for me)........so to able to have L6 amp modelling + tubes + GT fx would be pretty sweet.

Take care my friend

Porcs



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by porcytree on 2010-02-16 06:57:04

Hi Eward.........you can't hide here you know......the Porcs will track you down.

Glad to see you back on the GT forums lately........what did you make of the Mods moving our post but leaving some of the other comments in the original thread?

Thought it was fair enough to move us but should've moved the others too...........the mods lost some of their respect from me for doing that.

Keep shining EVH.......don't let the buggers grind ypou down



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2010-02-16 07:55:02

porcytree wrote:

Hey there Karl

Not seen you around GT central lately..........have you given up on us guys over there?

Hows the MK II going for you? Did you get the "vibration" noise sorted out.

Hey porcs!  I sold my GT when I sold my real amps and went Axe-Fx, because I was mainly using it for effects and not amp models.  I kinda straightened out the MKII 112 vibration issue by...sending it back.  LOL!  It turns out that I probably could have fixed it by making sure the speaker screws were tightened appropriately.  I've instead opted for a 212 MKII as a backup rig.  Nice stuff, particularly with the new editor and FX Infusion on the way.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Bluestone on 2010-02-16 08:19:37

"It didn't suddenly start to sound horrible because Fractal released their product."


I'm still laughing about that Karl! That is so true...


I sure wish I could aford the Axe fx...but hey..I've been playing PODS Since 199...er....92 I think...LOl..when ever the first one came out..live gigging...recordings....and I'm still getting props for my tones...live and recording...thanks Line 6 !


I like new gear...I like to check out the new stuff at my local GC....but when all is said on done...I'm still very happy with all my L6 amps and PODs...as the saying goes...if it an't broke....The new fx are truly good...but good tone is well.....good tone...no matter if you spend 2,000 on the gear or 20...if you get the tones that work for you..and that you are trying to get to....then the price just doesn't matter...all in my most humble opine...

Does a $ 2,000 piece of gear sound better than a $20 piece? Might depend on who's playing it..eh?


Thanks for the laughs...rock on...thankyouforletmebemyselfagain

OM



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2010-02-16 09:45:06

Bluestone wrote:

"It didn't suddenly start to sound horrible because Fractal released their product."

Thanks for the laughs...rock on...thankyouforletmebemyselfagain

Sly and the Family Stone reference.  Nice!

Yes, you're correct to bring that up.  The POD still can sound good.  And it didn't change a bit when newer products came out.  Just keeps on going.

I do think the best product Line6 has come up with to date isn't the POD, though.  It's the Spider Valve.  Horrible name, great amp.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by rodofrage on 2010-02-19 21:06:06

I've heard the medium gain & low gain Axe-Fx stuff. All the Eventide effects,the U2 presets, and the Van Halen patches.  But, does it have the high gain monster Uber Metal tones like the POD X3 has?  Where it sounds like a Recto, or a Diezel , or The L6 Lunatic,Uber,& Insane. I just downloaded the new patches for X3 with the talkbox,vocorder,barberpole phaser,pattern tremelo, & 8 other new effects. The only thing missing is the Eventide stuff like the the M13 & M9 have.  Those Reverbs that sparkle & have the special effects on them.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by GuitarDojo on 2010-02-20 05:50:23

Check out Axe-FX user motega for the UBER metal tones:

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=891247

Slipknot

href="http://www.soundclick.com/bands/page_songInfo.cfm?bandID=891247&songID=7385675">http://www.soundclick.com/bands/page_songInfo.cfm?bandID=891247&songID=7385675



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by jesuscares on 2010-02-22 11:01:19

Nice but I think this thread is kinda getting boring.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2010-02-22 12:51:09

rodofrage wrote:

I've heard the medium gain & low gain Axe-Fx stuff. All the Eventide effects,the U2 presets, and the Van Halen patches.  But, does it have the high gain monster Uber Metal tones like the POD X3 has?  Where it sounds like a Recto, or a Diezel , or The L6 Lunatic,Uber,& Insane.

Absolutely.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Culpster on 2010-03-27 07:43:58

Somebody earlier said it was $2000. Let's break it down to what it really costs:

Power conditioner            $60.00

4 rack case                     $80.00

FrAtomic                       $799.00 + Shipping  or $2000+ for good quality FR speakers

Axe FX Ultra                $2000.00

Shipping                         $80.00

Mission Control Pedal    $120.00 (expression/Wah)

Ground Control Pro        $400.00

____________________________

Roughly $3700.00

Sound: Is it worth $3700, not to mention the agravation of setting up the Midi CC on a floor board?

I'll keep my $1200.00 invensted in my MK II and be happy with the grab and go that the Axe was supposed to be.

The reality is that you can get great sounds out of the Axe FX, but I found myself tweaking like a madman and never playing.

It was too much. You could tweak forever, and you sit down the next day and say...damn this sounds terrible (Munson Curve)

I got great sounds out of my MK II is 20 minutes. I got great sounds out of my Axe FX after about a month? I could throw a M13 into my loop

and probably be more impressed with my rig now and I would still be at less than half the cost.

Before all the rants about why does everybody else think it's better than sliced bread, take a look at the forums of Axe FX. There are people getting great sounds out of it. I could be one of those, If I was willing to spend the kind of dough I mentioned above. The above is actually the minimun that you would spend on it to get great sound. Most are spending $1000 on a floor board and buying 2 expression pedals. Those that have purchased the Standard constantly have the CPU % run out on them trying to get better patches. These are my opinions, but I am much happier with my current rig than anything I could get out of the Axe FX. These are not opinions, you can read through their forums and deduct this very easily.

The next issue is that I cannot tweak. The answer to that is I certainly can and know most of the parameters that many newbies would not even understand such as Q values and gate values, etc. The problem is that it is a professional piece of gear that requires top of the line products that are voiced to either handle the frequencies, or a power conditioner to get that tube sound? I know that it is supposed to do this already, so why do most Axe FX owners use Mesa or SLA2 tube powered amps? The dynamics are great for the amps and the sag is adjustable on all amps, but it still didn't give me $2500 more worth of sound.

These are my opinions. I remind those that would like to start frying me, that I sold my Vetta and wanted this to be "the answer" to modelling that we all wanted, It just was not that impressive in the grand scheme of things. The audience cannot tell the difference and many of the features that I found impressive would not have too much of a real time application unless I was in a U2 tribute band.

Hope that helps provide a different opinion to those that think they are missing out. I am still glad that I purchased the Axe FX. If I didn't, I would never have been happier with my current rig. I would have thought that I missed out on something. Lesson learned, if you can, try before you buy. Lesson 2 learned, Good sound is subjective.

Culpster



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2010-03-27 12:35:42

Culpster wrote:

Somebody earlier said it was $2000. Let's break it down to what it really costs:

...

Roughly $3700.00

Yep,  that's probably about right.  My spend was similar when all was said  and done.  And it still came in under what a tube amp and pedal rig cost  me.  Compare:

Axe Ultra: $2000

Rack, power  conditioner, rack tuner:  $500

Ground Control Pro: $400

Mission  pedals: $200

Carvin solid state power amp: $400

PA  speakers: $800  (these are purely optional, especially if you have a sound system with decent monitoring to rely on)

Total:  $4300

Tube amp and  pedals rig:

Marshall JVM410H: $2200

Avatar 412 Cab: $500

Pedaltrain  PT2, wah, tuner, tube screamer, OCD, crunch box, noise reduction, TC  mod, TC delay, EQ, cables, power supply: $1800

Total: $4500

Both  are great rigs.  But the first one sounds just as good, and honestly,  even better.   Doesn't have to run at blistering volumes to sound good.   Plays nice with sound guys.  And it has dozens more effects, cab sims,  and quality effects.

Sound: Is it worth $3700, not to mention the agravation of setting up the Midi CC on a floor board?

Depends.   I have gotten nothing but raves from sound guys, other guitarists, and  fans about just how darn good it sounds.  No exceptions.   Aggravation  of setting up MIDI CC on a floor board?  The Axe LEARNS the MIDI CC's  sent from the floorboard.  It took all of a minute or two to set up my  Ground Control Pro, and I haven't touched it since.

The reality is that you can get great sounds out of the Axe FX, but I found myself tweaking like a madman and never playing.

It was too much. You could tweak forever, and you sit down the next day and say...damn this sounds terrible (Munson Curve)

I  suppose you could tweak forever.  However, I have the same 4 patches  that I use live dialed in since November or thereabouts.  Haven't  touched them or tweaked those since.  You can say this about ANY rig.   Even the Spider Valve MKII.

The problem is that it is a professional piece of gear that requires top of the line products that are voiced to either handle the frequencies, or a power conditioner to get that tube sound? I know that it is supposed to do this already, so why do most Axe FX owners use Mesa or SLA2 tube powered amps?

Being  a pro piece of gear isn't really a problem, is it?  I'm guessing this  was your real problem with the unit, and that's okay.  Because it does  take some patience to set up any rig.  But you didn't have to use every  option.  Lots of my patches have nothing but an amp and cab in them.   And I don't go after the advanced settings.  As far as top of the line  products "voiced to handle the frequencies" I use pretty run of the mill  PA cabs as monitors.  Certainly not top of the line.  Nor is the FOH  gear that the main send goes to.  And power conditioners have no bearing  on tube sound

Most  Axe users do not use Mesa power amps.  And that ever popular ART SLA2 is  a SOLID STATE amp. Running in class AB.  Most Axe users use a  solid state method of amplification.  I use a Carvin solid state  poweramp (running class AB).  Many use powered monitors, which are also  solid state.

As far as the FR Atomic goes, yes that is  tube.  However, it is designed to be very linear, not like a GUITAR tube  power amp, and imparts no color of it's own.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by beanbag on 2010-03-28 18:43:33

I just bought the X3 red bean and love it!

My opinion is....take the difference and buy your favourite tube amp.

That's what I did and enjoy my new Vox AC30.

My AC30 will still be the classic that it is when the Axe-FX model IV has

come out and this current model is in the pawn shop



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2010-03-29 08:25:39

beanbag wrote:

I just bought the X3 red bean and love it!

My opinion is....take the difference and buy your favourite tube amp.

That's what I did and enjoy my new Vox AC30.

My AC30 will still be the classic that it is when the Axe-FX model IV has

come out and this current model is in the pawn shop

That's a good piece of advice.  Tube amps never go out of style.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by FCMike1 on 2010-04-04 05:06:44

I'm not sellin my X3. I like it and it works great. The Axe FX is cool, But what a bunch of arrogant people that dog everything else. Theres a difference between $399 and $2000. No duh. If it didn't have mor stuff I'd be livid.Then there's the yoyos that compare a real Engl or Diezel to the Axe FX. What a joke imo. The Axe is cool, but is not that cool to be "better" than a Diezel VH4 or E-stein. Arrogant crowd for sure.

Ayhoo, I've played my POD X3 L and had great responses from crowds and sound guys. My Rig does not cost an arm and a leg. The other comparisons are not even close. My rigs a POD X3 L, 2x 1x12 Cab, SS power amp (used for $125) and some cables. No $4000 spent.

About their Axe FX editor????????? it stinks. Nothing like Line 6 edit. Axe editor don't work on a lot of owners gear. Some use the old one. The new version has been beta for almost a year. Imagine if Line 6 went beta for a year. You think they would not hear the end of it here?

I see it like this. The Vetta was a high end amp. The Johnson amps were high end once. After some years, that $2000 Ultra is going to do like other digital preamps do. It might be worth $500 in 5 years. That's a risk. I hate buying stuff like this when the depreciation really is going to hurt. It's not like buying a Bogner or Mesa rig for $2500 and still getting $1500 for it ten years later.

I'm happy to think that Line 6 and other companies can and will be able to find something close to the Axe Fx in coming years. They lead the markets. FAS just redesigned other modeling that was already out and put a high price chip in it. This kind of competition can be good for us. Line 6 now has to re-engineer or they might lose a good percent of users. For now, I'm going to wait for other companies to compete with FAS. I don't like the Eleven Rack either, so X3 Live is my live rig for now. I have plenty of options in amp farm and other gear for recording. Just stop comparing $2000 gear to cheaper much cheaper gear. That to me adds to the arrogant points.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by toneman2121 on 2010-04-06 19:17:26

i'm getting really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, rally, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really tired of hearing the comparison between these two obviously capable units. REALLY!...and writing really.  so i'm officially and unequivocally having the last word. before i close this thread. there thread closed. really.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2010-04-07 09:51:43

FCMike1 wrote:

The Axe FX is cool, But what a bunch of arrogant people that dog everything else.

I'd hope that doesn't apply to everyone on that forum.  Though they certainly do have their share of tone snobs, there a plenty of good folks there that realize the Axe is just another tone tool.

The X3, GT, ToneLab, Digitech, etc, offerings are all great pieces of gear in their own right, and certainly usable for recording and live playing.  Heck, I was listening to a song I recorded last year using my X3 and was digging the tone I got.  What's cool about the Axe is that it seems to have the best qualities of all of those units plus some that none of those have.  All in one box.

Keep your X3.  It's a cool unit.  I got compliments on my tones when I used it too.  Although, not as many as I got when using a real amp or the Axe.  Still, X3 is a great unit considering what you pay for it.  Can you imagine if that kind of tech had been around in the 80's?  Any guitarist of that era would have killed for either unit.

About the Axe Edit software, you're right.  It's nothing like Line6 Edit.  Though I'm not sure why you'd compare the two.  I wasn't aware that lots of folks were having problems with it, either.  My experiences with it have been positive.  Yes, it's been in beta for a long time.  Current version works really well.  And there don't seem to be too many folks complaining that it's still in beta.  Guess they're willing to wait for it to be done right.  But at least they still have a perfectly functional application in the meantime.  YMMV.

Sorry I've been so arrogant and dogging all that other gear.  It's a real shame that I don't have, use, and like any Line6 gear.  Oh, wait...



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Andy6431 on 2010-04-07 15:06:12

read this thread, from end to end...lol

I do have a question for Karl. You mentioned the power amp sim in axe fx is very good, but to achieve the quality as good as a real tube amp, a real power amp is necessary? Just like you have a QSC poweramp in your setup. Excuse me if this is a really noob question.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by jesuscares on 2010-04-07 15:39:22

I made a mistake by commenting on this thread & I email is flooded with the continuation of this thread.Axe is good, L6 is good.Go buy em all if you can afford! But please spare us out of this.Please stop this thread somebody!



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2010-04-08 09:05:31

Andy6431 wrote:

read this thread, from end to end...lol

I do have a question for Karl. You mentioned the power amp sim in axe fx is very good, but to achieve the quality as good as a real tube amp, a real power amp is necessary? Just like you have a QSC poweramp in your setup. Excuse me if this is a really noob question.

No, that's not exactly what I meant.  And no, it's not a stupid question.  You can achieve good feel going direct without any amplification at all.  And I do that all the time.  However, if you're going to run some kind of amplification system in addition to your direct send, like for some stage volume or monitoring, and you want the best reproduction of that feel, the best results are obtained with power amps running in class AB.  Solid state or tube, doesn't matter.  Solid state is preferred because then you can enable the power amp simulation on the Axe.  The QSC power amp that I had, and don't have anymore, was running class H.  It has a DSP that controls timing and adds some latency to the signal.  Fine for FOH PA purposes, not so fine if you're noticing that latency in your monitoring and it's degrading the feel.  For my monitoring setup, I traded the QSC for a Carvin DCM1540L.  It is a solid state amp, and runs class AB, with enough clean headroom wattage to push my monitors or my 412 cab if I wish.  Nice amp, and it's 15 lbs lighter than the QSC.  Made my rack much more manageable, and has a definite feel improvement with no noticeable latency.

Hope that makes things as clear as mud for you.

And for those complaining about this thread, just unsubscribe from email notifications.  However, the tidbit I gave above is applicable to the POD too, so maybe you learned something just like I did.  One of the reasons why people prefer tube poweramps with the POD is because of the low latency afforded by a class AB power section, and not necessarily the "tube mojo".  Same result can be obtained with a solid state amp of the proper configuration.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Andy6431 on 2010-04-08 12:31:11

That really answered my question, thanks, Karl!



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by BobbyDeVitoM9 on 2010-04-11 20:38:20

I am quite sure the AXE-FX is really good.

but for ME......i liked the X3 Live better. I didn't want to spend $2000, and I didn't want to have to buy a separate foot controller and have to program it to work with the AXE.

I have been REALLY impressed with how well Gear Box and my X3 Live work together -- it's been a BLAST downloading presets and banks from all the other users, and easily loading them into the X3 Live.

Using the Monkey, I was able to easily update the firmware on my X3 Live flawlessly!

I am really happy with the sound and performance of my X3 Live, love the built in controller, all the ins and outs, and the form factor of the unit. it works WELL for me, both for home recording and live gigs.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by rojoyinc on 2010-04-12 07:25:39

HOW DO I UN-SUBSCRIBE to this thread?  Really tired of it appearing in my email every day (for months).

Personally, I've had toneport2, I still have UX8 and guitar port.  I also have  VG99  (probably better than AXEFX?  I dunno - but probably more programable) with the floorboard and extras cost near 2k.  But guess what I use the most?    ( guitar port ).

why?  VG99 is wired into a MM6 synth and UX8 in my recording room.  I like to practice and play all over the house.  The guitar port (less than 100.00) and a laptop can float around anywhere in the house, porch or yard. The tones are amazing for less than 100.00 and the portability can't be beat.   I also use a  Roland BR600 for it's efffects to float around the house/porch.  This can operate on batteries with no laptop needed. Headphones and small box and you've got awesome power for around 300.00

I think to come into a line6 forum to tell - SOLD IT because of another product is kinda  stinky - doesn't AXE FX have a forum where you can tell those people about your  SOLD and now using posts?



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2010-04-12 08:27:03

rojoyinc wrote:

But guess what I use the most?    ( guitar port ).

I use my TonePort all the time for practice when it's impractical or just not necessary to break out a full rig.   It's a fantastic piece of gear.  IMO, the best piece of gear, aside from the M13, that Line6 has made to date.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by toneman2121 on 2010-04-13 14:31:36

at the top of the page on the right, click "stop email". this should set you free



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by jsinicropi on 2010-04-21 09:50:03

Pretty cool stuff however at that price I'd rather have a real tube head and 4x12 cab and use my own fx and it will sound better for the same price.

I'll stick with my Pod XT and Flextone 3 untill I get another Tube amp.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Andy6431 on 2010-04-21 17:54:32

Just placed an order for an Ultra, now fingers crossed



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Kazak9 on 2010-04-22 04:53:21

Good for you Andy. I've had my Ultra for almost two years, and for me it has been the ultimate GAS cure. But far more important, my playing has improved dramatically. I do absolutely no tweaking, and have developed 6 presets that I have no need or desire to change. Let us know how it goes.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by parman on 2010-04-22 06:54:18

I have the X3 live, DL4,Verbzilla and my favorite Boss pedals and my sound caint get any better. The X3 also has a Wah built in it,Volume Pedal all for $499.I play it direct at church and Live at gigs I use my Fender Super Sonic. It doesnt get any better then this. Good is good and saving money is great. Anyway just wanted to say some nice things about line 6. Oh ya I have had it for 1 1/2 yrs and 0 problems.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Andy6431 on 2010-04-22 09:11:36

Thanks Kazak. I have been looking at it for two years. Great thanks to my wife who support me on this.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by parman on 2010-04-22 14:54:28

Question: Does Fractal Audio have Gear Box so you can download Patches. Does it show the Amps face and signal path so you can tweek your settings,fine tune everything and then save it to your Pod. That is one of the many things I think is cool about line 6. You can also get thru to the Tec support very fast and get your questions answered. You can also set the X3 live on the floor just like your stomp boxes plus they look Hot. Anyway just wanted to know about the Gear Box program. Thanks.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by guitfiddleblue on 2010-04-22 17:38:21

Well... I have heard the X3 Live and thought it had GREAT tone. Of course, it was outside my budget. Like many of the musicians here, I play a lot in Church. I play through a Variax 600 - which I love because I can detune to Eb for songs that are out of my range and then bring it back up for our female vocalist. I'm also looking forward to the new VAX (and wondering if Line 6 will bring more to the table as well); however, here is my problem. I like the idea of the xt live or x3 live being able to control the VAX via patches. However, after extensive research, I purchased a Digitech RP-500 (which I also really like). Digitech has come a long way in amp sims and effects. I suppose my question would be, what are all your thoughts about the RP-500 vs. the XT Live or X3 Live (obviously the X3 will rule them both)... but I'm looking for opinions...

Thanks to all...

Bill



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by aaron__aardvark on 2010-04-22 20:57:42

guit,

I think the RP's sound pretty good for the price, but I think the Pod X3/XT sound significantly better with amp modeling, especially with high gain sounds.  From what I hear though, Digitech does better pitch shifting/harmonizers than the Pods.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by timowens on 2010-04-22 21:15:35

I have both the X3L and the RP1000. IMHO, the X3L has a slightly better high gain tone and it has much better speaker models. I’m not into effects too much so I can’t really comment on them in that respect. I would also add that the X3L is a bit more versatile and has a lot more “bells and whistles” like GearBox, GPO, etc. Personally, I have struggled with the poor reliability of the X3L, and from reading the forum I know I’m not alone, it is for this reason that I now use the RP1000. I know a lot of people say that they have never had any problems with their X3L but I simply can’t bring myself to trust it for gigging anymore.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2010-04-22 23:10:07

parman wrote:

Question: Does Fractal Audio have Gear Box so you can download Patches. Does it show the Amps face and signal path so you can tweek your settings,fine tune everything and then save it to your Pod.

They have a program called Axe-Edit, which is in final beta (0.9) right now and very stable.  The interface is nice, although there aren't pretty pictures of amps and effects.  It is still highly functional. You can turn knobs, route effects blocks through drag and drop, manage patches, etc. Although you don't need that program to share patches.  Any MIDI utility that can transmit sysex messages will work.  Axe-Edit will be the interface to Axe-PC, which is their plug-in software.  I've heard tell that will run about $300 and include everything on the Axe.  Axe-Edit itself is free.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by aaron__aardvark on 2010-04-23 23:12:56

Karl,

$300 for a software plug-in version of the Axe-Fx?  It would do everything an Axe-Fx does?



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2010-04-24 04:37:16

aaron__aardvark wrote:

Karl,

$300 for a software plug-in version of the Axe-Fx?  It would do everything an Axe-Fx does?

Yep, that's apparently the deal. Bargain, isn't it?  Unfortunately, no word on a delivery date.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by yikesboy on 2010-04-24 10:07:00

You said it Insidian!
I play live with my Variax/X3 live, record with it and nobody is going to tell me that the great unwashed in the audience will begin to notice it if I were to change to some other 'voodoo box'- it's still me playing well or poorly and integrating my sound into the song's requirement.

I say, if you have the clams to shell out for it and it inspires you, go ahead and buy the Fractal. However, to infer that Line 6 product, used in millions of recordings to great acclaim and untold millions of dollars in sales, is somehow not "big league", is childish.

yikesboy



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by aaron__aardvark on 2010-04-24 11:53:05

Karl,

Sounds tempting!  I would think that would cut into Axe-Fx hardware sales quite a bit.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by wardick on 2010-04-25 16:47:59

Not sure what Karl's source is, but I was expecting to cost about $700 based on what I have read.   The VST doesn't exist and was supposed to be demoed more than a year ago maybe even two and that never happened.  I don't think it would cut into hardware sales at all since hardware and software are different things.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Matt_J71 on 2010-04-25 17:33:05

I thought part of the reason the Axe-Fx was superior to other modelers was the quality of the hardware components and processors inside of it? Will a software plug-in sound the same if it is running on your PC? If so, then the next question is "why does an Axe-Fx cost $2000 if the combination of a cheap PC ($300) plus a $300 plug-in will sound just as good? Why are the hardware components in the Axe so much more expensive than a common PC?

Maybe these are all stupid questions, but it just came to mind after all the times I have read that the Axe-Fx is better because of the superior processor and handwired components, etc.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2010-04-25 19:19:52

I don't have those answers for you.  Axe is hand assembled in the USA.  So are Mesas, and nobody seems to complain about the price of those.  And I might be mistaken on the price of Axe-PC?  Swear from what I'd heard it was going to be in the same range as other modeling plugins, and include a breakout box, at around $300.  Yeah, true, it's late.  Fractal was apparently getting out the rest of the new Atomic FR wedges and the new Fractal foot controller, so maybe now they'll focus on the plugin? Here's hoping.

Anyway, price matters not to me.  The tone I'm getting from it was well worth the investment, and I paid less for it than my former all-tube rig.  Consistently excellent tone night after night.  Told the sound guy at last night's festival what I told every other one:  set my EQ on the strip flat and configure it for a line level signal.  Sound check took 10 seconds and it sounded awesome, like it does every single time.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Matt_J71 on 2010-04-25 19:37:59

I wasn't knocking the price of the Axe. It is an amazing sounding piece of gear and well worth the price in my opinion. I was just confused because everyone always claims that the internal components in an Axe-Fx are something extraordinary.....but then I hear that my $300 PC has parts that are capable of running the plug-in version and getting exactly the same tones....just seems inconsistent.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by mcmurray on 2010-04-25 21:04:57

The price is due to the digital signal processing engineering work and programming.  No one can match the models used in the AxeFx, it is this IP that you're paying for.  You could build a POD X3 with the best hardware in the world, but still wouldn't sound and feel as good as the AxeFx because the dsp models and software are inferior.  Simple as that.

The hardware used in the AxeFx is solid, but it's nothing extraoadinary.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2010-04-26 07:59:05

Matt_J71 wrote:

I wasn't knocking the price of the Axe. It is an amazing sounding piece of gear and well worth the price in my opinion. I was just confused because everyone always claims that the internal components in an Axe-Fx are something extraordinary.....but then I hear that my $300 PC has parts that are capable of running the plug-in version and getting exactly the same tones....just seems inconsistent.

I understand what you're asking.  I don't think it was necessarily the the components alone, although I do understand that things like the AD/DA converters are top notch and not cheap.  Factor in American labor and a relatively small (compared to Line6) number of units, and you can start understanding why the higher price.  But your question above about how you can get the same sound on your cheap PC would indicate that a large chunk of the cost has to do with the R&D and the algorithms.  My guess is you could put POD Farm on a great PC with a processor that is far better than what is offered on Line6 hardware and while it may sound better than a POD, it won't out perform something with modeling algorithms that are actually designed to take advantage of that faster platform.

Like running Wordstar on a Dual Core Pentium under Windows 7.  I bet it would run fast (maybe even TOO fast for its own good) but it wouldn't suddently turn into Microsoft Word.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by wardick on 2010-04-26 13:46:03

Pod X3 (all of them?) DSP ADSP-21369 = $43
http://www.analog.com/en/embedded-processing-class="highlight">dsp/sharc/adsp-21369/processors/product.html
Axe-Fx Standard DSP ADSP-TS203S = $220
http://www.analog.com/en/embedded-processing-class="highlight">dsp/tigersharc/adsp-ts203s/processors/product.html
Axe-Fx Ultra DSP ADSP-TS201S = $314
http://www.analog.com/en/embedded-processing-class="highlight">dsp/tigersharc/adsp-ts201s/processors/product.html

If you are  tech junkie they list the specs.  I think the prices are for quatity of 1.   The Eleven Rack uses TI chips.  I don't know about the other procesors.  It all means nothing of course.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2010-04-26 19:31:14

Wow.  The DSP in the Ultra costs almost as much as a POD at retail.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by rodzimguitar68 on 2010-04-26 21:17:14

I'll echo the sentiments of a few respondants:  My hand built Astin Martin that costs $450,000 blows away my piece of crap BMW750i that is a pittily $125,000

After I drove my hand built Astin Martin, I wouldn't be caught dead driving to Walmart in my piece of junk BMW.  I can't believe I was ever caught dead in that bucket of dung.....whew, I'm glad that my reputation is not permanently marred by having been seen in a vehicle that costs less than $250,000.

The point is, both vehicles are "cars" but they are not really comparible.  BMW's are still awesome.  Astin Martins are just "awesomer"..... They are both better than Camaros, Mustangs, etc, both of which are pretty special in their own right.

Just different means to the same end:  getting to Walmart and back, safely.

The same is true with the quest for tone.  We will find our own paths to get there.  I've seen guys with incredible gear, that really suck on guitar, and or do not have an ear for getting great ones, while I've also seen dudes plug directly into a modest amp with $200 worth of stomp boxes, and play with more soul and energy that defy the modest gear they are using.

The X3 is an affordable, awesomely powerful piece of very portable gear.  The Axe-FX is even more awesome, but also requires a foot controller to use it in a live situation, so it's not just 1,500 more, but probably 2,000 or 2,200 more just to get it to the same functionality as the X3.  Yes, it sounds more coolerer.  But there's a guy out there that has a bradshaw rig and is running 6 or 7 different boutique heads, into a 4-5 different cabinets, through VHT poweramps and Boogie simulclass amps, that blows away the Axe-Fx - his rig costs 75,000 and he is laughing at the original post about how awesome the Axe Fx is.  He is laughing because someone thinks their digital processor sounds believeable compared to his all analog/tube signal path.  This guy is 47, has no job, and lives in his mom's basement, and plays along to Ted Nugent Double Live Gonzo and Kiss Alive before going to bed each night.  He bought the 75,000 analog rig during the dot com boom, but has been unemployed since then.

Of course, I'm being sarcastic, but you get the point.  There are many paths to great tone, and there are many more guitarists that already have pretty nice gear, but no sense of tone, or feel for how to program and tweak their gear to use it to its full potential.  Just try to be the best YOU can be, and learn your gear and how to make it sing.

Jeesh......



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by toneman2121 on 2010-04-27 07:43:26

a wonderful story, well written, kept my interest all the way through. and a bit of humor to keep it light. can't say much more after that. i hope this ends the thread.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Kazak9 on 2010-04-27 09:42:27

It seems to me that there are two issues here, the first is does the Axe-Fx sound better, and the second, is it worth the extra money.

While the sound issue is entirely subjective, basically everyone hears what they want to hear, as evidenced most powerfully in this thread, I think that the money issue is not as subjective.

I have to confess, that I have done many things in my rather long life but I have rarely had a regular job. I have been a cabinet maker (owned my own business) and a videographer (owned my own business) and an independent  3D graphic animator (currently). I have also spent some years as a professional musician, meaning that I made my principle source of income from playing guitar, both touring and in the studio.

The Axe-Fx to a professional musician is simply a tool, a means to an end, and as such it's cost/value is relative to the income it helps to produce. I believe, as Karl has stated, that it is priced quite competitively with a similar tube amp rig.

To the non-professional, like me at the moment, where I play more for the fun of it, even though I do sometimes get paid to play, it is a relatively expensive gizmo, that I "want" rather than "need".

As a cabinet maker I spent far more on tools proportionately than as a musician, I have two older video cameras in a closet somewhere that were great value at 18K each, and in my current line of work as an animator I have spent many times as much as I would need to, to be a professional musician.

I do believe the fundamental difference is that the Axe-Fx is specifically designed to meet the needs of professionals, whereas the X3 is designed to meet the needs of the hobbyist. While plenty of professional musicians have X3s, I would suggest that there are relatively few who rely solely on an X3.

I am not knocking the X3, I did not sell mine when I got my Ultra, and like I said somewhere earlier in the thread I still have recordings I made with the X3 that I am plenty proud of.

I think the big divider is if you talk to people who are making their living from music you will get one point of view, and an entirely different one from people who are not. IMHO, LOL etc. etc.

I would disagree with rodzim on a couple of points though, the last (and third time) I retired as a pro musician I had collected a dozen fancy, expensive tube amps, and while I still think they were all amazing at what they did, I have only kept one Mk IV (I have had this one for 17 years) and the Ultra have absolutely no GAS regarding amps at all.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by ricksox on 2010-04-27 17:01:47

LOL!!!

Line6Miller



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by sofnwhat on 2010-04-28 06:49:47

Amen brother!



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Destroid on 2010-04-29 16:40:21

What processor does the M9 use?



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Dime13 on 2010-05-15 18:47:42

Heres my different perspective on this, as I haven't made my final decision as to whether to buy the X3 pro or not.  I just need a quick fix as a backup if the sound guy at a live gig cannot capture my tone properly from my real amps.  Because at this point, I would just rather buy a mass produced X3 pro over a Fractal Axe-FX, based on the tones i have been able to get in the POD Farm plug in pro tools, and a lack of defined metal tones available online from the Axe FX.

ya i know the Axe FX has better sound quality, ya, ya, blah, blah, blah,...  but how much better can it be?  Is it just higher fidelity?  Big deal, stick an eventide h series rack unit after a POD X3 and you'll add magic thats even higher quality.  But the question is whether the distortion on the Axe FX is defined enough, to which no satisfying sample has ever been presented to me in all these online sound samples... all i hear from it are high quality impulses and effects, but i am not happy with the axe distortions.

But seriously, I cannot believe that it would be THAT much better as to warrant spending that much money on it.   And even if it was, I still would not buy it because there is no chance in hell that it can possibly sound like my real Mesa Mark V tube amp,  or my JCM800KK amps running my celestion loaded cabinets with an eventide in the FX loop... miked with a Heil microphone, and through my API A2D preamp - not a chance in hell it could match the same fire.  I wish anyone the best of luck with that attempt.  So therefore the X3 as a last minute live back up fix is the more rational option for me if my sound is not there out of my amps in a particular venue.

And BTW, Im not impressed at all with the hardcore metal gains i have heard online in the Axe FX as compared with the POD line (at least as I know how  Pod Farm can sound in Pro tools.  And believe me I have been searching for the right defined distortion for a long time so i know what i am talking about.)  Pod farm has modeled the distortion waveform of a modded JCM800 like 99%. Axe distortions are nice and high fidelity, but its a different silkier type sound and does not even compare in the metal category.

Believe me, all of the sound clips ive heard from the axe-fx - are whey too soft for metal and the definition is simply not there in the distortion...   even if the claims are true that the Axe FX has a high fidelity sound engine.  i just do not think it produces proper distortion for metal (at least not the type of metal that I am into like lamb of god type sounds or the high definition/high gain sounds that Slayer uses when they are live). and i have never heard of a metal band using the Axe-FX. Look at Dino from Fear Factory - it is either his specific few amps or line 6.  And an eventide H7600 costs 4000 dollars, has amazing effects and EQs, but i would never use its guitar distortion modelers either - especially  not for metal.   With all that said, maybe the axe-fx might be better for a smoother lead, or blues type sound, based on what ive heard.

So in conclusion, I'm very impressed with Pod Farm in pro tools, and if I can get these exact sounds in the X3, then I am buying that... but can someone tell me: will the DSP inside the Pod X3 allow me to get a virtually indistinguishable sound as what Pod Farm is giving me in pro tools?   Or am I just whey off and imagining impossible things and that the DSP in the X3 really will not do what I am expecting it to?    In other words, will the X3 DSP sound like i want assuming i am satisfied with the amp distortions in Pod Farm?  If it can, then POD X3 would be the clear winner.

(And the Fractal Axe-FX like silky high fidelity overtones  can easily be added to the lower fidelity X3  with even higher quality with an eventide H series - and you can be positive that setup would kill the Axe FX in terms of complex effects possibilities... and theres no way the Axe FX has an EQ that sounds better than the synthetic "otherworldly-ness" of the Eventide.  so based on this,  if  X3 can sound like Pod Farm in pro Tools, then coupled with an Eventide processor, it would destroy the Axe FX, especially for metal.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2010-05-16 11:07:20

FarBeyond3 wrote:

I just need a quick fix if in the unfortunate circumstance that the sound guy at a live gig cannot bring out the tone in my big tube amps with his live sound techniques

If your sound guy can't get a mic'd amp to sound right, then he needs to re-evaluate his techniques.  No POD or Axe-Fx is going to help.

i have never heard of a metal band using the Axe-FX.

Megadeth. Meshuggah.  Dream Theater.  Anthrax.  Helmet.

ya i know the Axe FX has better sound quality, ya, ya, blah, blah, blah,...  but how much better can it be?  is it just more clear? is that what you all mean by its high quality? ...Just higher fidelity?

The biggest differences are the cab and mic models, and yes, it is a HUGE difference in sound.  This is where Line6 modeling falls flat, and has for years.  Line6 amp models are good.  Cab and mic models, not so good.  And if you don't like the cab model offerings in the Axe, you are free to replace them with your own impulse responses.  Try that with the POD.  You can't.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Dime13 on 2010-05-16 11:13:01

                               

If your sound guy can't get a mic'd amp to sound right, then he needs to  re-evaluate his techniques.  No POD or Axe-Fx is going to help.

Well if you go line level into his board then of course it would help... because then you take away the need for his miking techniques.  Hello?  lol

Megadeth.   Dream Theater.  Anthrax.  Helmet.

I am talking about the very heavy stuff.  the bands you listed are excellent, but are not like the machine gun sounds that would require more defined distortion.

but hey, i could be wrong about whether the axe-fx has those presets i am looking for... but no one has thus far ever shown me a decent online sample for metal distortion from the axe-fx with regards to the specific chainsaw like distortion i refer to.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2010-05-16 11:15:48

FarBeyond3 wrote:


Megadeth.   Dream Theater.  Anthrax.  Helmet.

I am talking about the very heavy stuff.  the bands you listed are excellent, but are not like the machine gun sounds that would require more defined distortion. but hey, i could be wrong about whether the axe-fx has those presets i am looking for... but no one thus far has ever shown me a decent online sample for metal distortion from the axe-fx with regards to the specific chainsaw like distortion i refer to...

Meshuggah also uses it.  Bottom line, the high gain stuff is excellent. And I mean really tight, thrash high gain stuff.  The tones are in there.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Dime13 on 2010-05-16 11:18:11

which messugah album?  do you have any other proof of other online samples i can hear for myself... they do not have to be high quality samples, i already know the unit is high fidelity like an eventide.... but i just need a basic idea of the metal distortions of the axe fx if i am to believe your claims.. the ones i have heard thus far have been unsatisfactory.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2010-05-16 11:19:35

I don't know which album.  All I know is that they are using it live.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by pinco on 2010-06-16 16:56:38

            pod  or fx axe       http://www.youtube.com/user/yurininkvic#p/u/4/HuPCVJYn29o  YouTube - Il canale di yurininkvic



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2010-06-16 17:02:58

pinco wrote:

            pod  or fx axe       http://www.youtube.com/user/yurininkvic#p/u/4/HuPCVJYn29o  YouTube - Il canale di yurininkvic

I'm guessing POD X3 Live with a Magic Box running into the front of it.  Just a guess, though.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Dime13 on 2010-06-16 17:39:19

SO I finally decided.  I went with the X3 pro and a used FBV shortboard.  There was no need to get the fractal Axe because I already have an eventide which is a wonder if i plug the X3 into - and then output the eventide to whatever i please - even if the effects blocks are bypassed - just running a signal through it is so euphoric.  And i really did not think the Fractal was THAT much better as has been claimed in this and other forums -  and definetly not to warrant the investment.  I would rather buy a new tube amp head or a couple of new cabs - by far more worth it in my opinion and they are the real deal!



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by pinco on 2010-06-16 17:57:05

Yes Karl ! I had used in the Pod X3 live (send -return)  simple Booster pedal .



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by ze371 on 2010-06-18 17:31:03

obZen.

They use the AFXUltra on their album, and on tour ive seen them with both POD XT PRO and AFXU, maybe they blend both? The Pod is clearly switched on and the TAP light syncs with the AFXU on the Alive dvd.

Listen to Nothing(2006 re release) and obZen back to back and you will notice the massive difference between the 2, obZen is harder heavier without having MORE distortion its just louder with more oumph and it cuts, oh it cuts.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by stumpsout on 2010-06-18 18:48:10

I just saw an endorsement for Axe-FX in a new edition of a magazine.

The guy says, in big letters , "I've got 2. I've been making patches for 6 months and still have a long way to go."

Sorry, but LMFAO!!!!

Why did they get Borat to endorse the f**king thing LOL!!



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2010-06-19 12:28:49

stumpsout wrote:

I just saw an endorsement for Axe-FX in a new edition of a magazine.

The guy says, in big letters , "I've got 2. I've been making patches for 6 months and still have a long way to go."

Then he's a moron.  It took me a couple of hours to tweak my patches in just right...last November on the day I opened the package.  And I haven't changed them since that day.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by wardick on 2010-06-19 16:05:10

Karl_Houseknecht wrote:

stumpsout wrote:

I just saw an endorsement for Axe-FX in a new edition of a magazine.

The guy says, in big letters , "I've got 2. I've been making patches for 6 months and still have a long way to go."

Then he's a moron.  It took me a couple of hours to tweak my patches in just right...last November on the day I opened the package.  And I haven't changed them since that day.

Upgrade your firmware to v10 and spend about 60 seconds or less with the new Shiva's and Marsha amps and be blown away.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2010-06-19 16:31:50

wardick wrote:

Upgrade your firmware to v10 and spend about 60 seconds or less with the new Shiva's and Marsha amps and be blown away.

I plan on doing that tonight.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by stumpsout on 2010-06-19 22:22:38

Yeah, pretty much better off not having that guy endorsing the thing hahaha



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by kassieblue on 2010-07-18 05:37:22

Some thoughts,

Fractual Audio certainly looks and sounds like a superb bit of kit although well out of my price range.

I recently purchased a Cakewalk V-studio 20 which I am really pleased with.  The included recording software is brilliant and I aslo have Sonar 8 which is compatable too.  Impressed with the BOSS guitar tones.  An all in one package with a price that compares to the UX2 and PF considering the extra software.  I think I will be selling my UX2's and PF, great stuff too but I can't use both and I find the VS superior.  Worth a look at for anyone looking for alternatives to PF and it makes everything so simple to use.

Regard. J



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by papersoul on 2010-07-19 19:23:51

A friend of mine has one in the studio I have used a few times in various configurations. I actually find the Digitech GSP 1101 almost as good and for a LOT less money! I would never buy the AxeFx. Still didn't compare to a real tube amp...no way! For the money...I'd get the Digidesign 11R....

Now for recording I disagree. the POD CAN do pro recordings....it is done allllll the time!

Me? I tend to use tube amps. I have a 20th Anniversary Bogner Shiva and 1998 VHT ST/50, but I prefer to use digital to record. I love the POD X3 Pro! Great for recording and I like that fact that it is all in one. I can also use it for recording bass!!! Plus, great mic preamps for vocals! Can't beat that for all in one recording. Plus, using it through a Mesa Boogie 50/50 tube power amp and any of my cabs...it easily holds its own with most tube amps.

For recording, for me...it must have bass sims and something for vocals.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2010-07-21 10:01:45

papersoul wrote:

I would never buy the AxeFx.

Never say never.  If you look at the first page of this post, you'll see where I said basically the same thing.  And I said it repeatedly in the past.

I said the same thing about the Spider Valve too.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by spaceatl on 2010-07-21 11:26:05

Funny how that HAI works (Human Absolution Instinct)...People find a good way to do things they often make the mistake of thinking that's the only way or that there is some kind of magic in a tube...It's just a switch that happens to be able to exceed it maximum rating in transients by 2 to 4 times depending on the tubes and the design...Tubes are unique that way...Not magical...



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by papersoul on 2010-07-21 18:04:48

I tried the Axe FX and a friend has it in his studio along with other modellers. When I asked him for advice...he said to get the POD X3 Pro or Digitech GSP, or maaaabye the 11R. He said exactly what others said a lot of it is perceived value like many boutique amps as well.

I can tell you it does not sound or feel like a tube amp to ME, it is what it is. Play it through a tube power amp and it will be much closer, but so will any decent modeller. When I am out on a gig and there are a lot of people talking and having fun...do I think they give a hoot what I have in the rack? Have the time, depending on acoustics you couldn't tell if I was using a Fractal or GSP. I have seen friends use both.

I learned the same thing the hard way with amps...save your money and spend it on other things...don't sink that much into a digital modeller. My buddy that has the studio also mentioned what others have....there is a weird high end issue with the Axe FX.

Only thing I like is supporting a small company like Fractal that does a good job...but I can't justify spending the money.

A friend said this and I agree:

The AxeFX is, essentially, a boutique version of the more commonplace (cheaper) modelers like the Line6 X3 Pro. As with all boutique products, you pay a large price for an incremental change in perceived quality, while gaining almost nothing in core value or functionality. So deciding where your money is better spent (three things with different and really good core functionality or one item with an incremental change) is really what it's all about.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by wardick on 2010-07-21 18:46:21

I wouldn't buy any of those modelers.  They cost too little.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2010-07-22 21:37:28

papersoul wrote:

My buddy that has the studio also mentioned what others have....there is a weird high end issue with the Axe FX.

Can you elaborate on that?  Because that's news to me.  And probably to every Axe-Fx owner.  Not a word of it, if it's so, on their forums.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by spaceatl on 2010-07-22 22:46:32

I will...even though you didn't ask me to Karl...

"The Others"..."They"...You know...Just like every other unsubstantiated claim that is made by people claiming to be journalists where all they are really doing is just repeating something they might have heard even though they scarcely even understand what it really is that they are saying...Most often they are jut interviewing other journalists...Some must substantiate their opinion in some form because they are either too frightened or unable to form one themselves...

"My friend has a studio and says, blah blah blah...you don't need it"..."It's got a high end problem"...In other words..."I have no idea how to use this thing."

That is sorta like the engineer that records a metal drummer with one mic over the whole kit...He got a good mix once doing that and his "absolution instinct" kicked in leaving him their forever...I know, the guy recorded me exactly once...played the best solo I probably ever played in my life and he forgot to arm the track too...and the drums sounded like a mono $hitbox too in the final mix...

Sorry to digress the thread Karl...



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2010-07-23 05:51:49

Exactly.  "My friend that owns a studio" is not exactly the big deal today that it once was.  EVERYONE owns a "studio" these days.  And even if they have an actual space they call a "studio" with actual recording gear in it, recording gear today is so affordable that ANYONE can set up their own "studio".

I wanted to be nice, but I just have to call it out: this person is trying to justify why he'll never buy one by spouting sour grapes rationale.  If there was a huge problem like he says with the Axe, that his "studio owner" "friend" says there is, then he needs to quickly bring it to the attention of John Petrucci, Steve Vai, Dweezil Zappa, Steve Stevens, Neal Schon, Marty Friedman, Tommy Shaw, Ty Tabor, and all the other pros that are adopting it.

But that's not to say that he may have actually tried the thing and just didn't like what he heard or felt.  I'd probably argue he just didn't know how to run the unit.  Heh, I had my Axe sounding great for months, and then realized one day that I'd accidentally flipped the power amp simulation off globally and left it that way for about 6 months.  I still managed to tweak tones out of it that left people impressed.  Then, I retweaked after realizing my mistake and just about crapped my pants at how good it was.  Point being, even someone experienced with all this modeling and traditional gear can take a while to understand all the ins and outs of how to make it sound good.  So taking the advice of someone who may or may not exist is probably not wise council.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by hippietim on 2010-07-23 08:01:57

A friend said this and I agree:

The AxeFX is, essentially, a boutique version of the more commonplace (cheaper) modelers like the Line6 X3 Pro. As with all boutique products, you pay a large price for an incremental change in perceived quality, while gaining almost nothing in core value or functionality. So deciding where your money is better spent (three things with different and really good core functionality or one item with an incremental change) is really what it's all about.

Obviously it's judgement call based on your own needs and wants, but to assert that the Axe-FX adds nothing in "core value or functionality" is a gross misrepresentation of the facts.  Simply put, there are very substantial features in the Axe-FX that are simply not present in any way, shape, or form on an X3 Pro.  Whoever said that has no grasp of what the capabilities of the Axe-FX are.  I do.  And I am also very much aware of what the X3 can do as I own one and use it as well.

Ironically, it is in fact this "core" of the Axe-FX that is so much better than the X3.

But if the X3 meets your needs completely then obviously there is no reason to get an Axe-FX.  However, anyone dismissing it as incrementally better has not spent time actually using an Axe-FX.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2010-07-23 08:43:56

hippietim wrote:

But if the X3 meets your needs completely then obviously there is no reason to get an Axe-FX.  However, anyone dismissing it as incrementally better has not spent time actually using an Axe-FX.

+1000.  Not trashing the X3 at all, because it is a good unit.  But those trashing the Axe as they are here simply haven't spent any time using it.

I've played and owned just about every modeler unit out there, and spent a good deal of time putting them through their paces both live and recorded.  And even I shied away from the Axe initially because I thought it could only be so much better, amp modeling-wise, than the rest of them, being a modeler and all.  Then I bought one and found out how very mistaken that thought was.

Line6 makes good stuff.  So does Boss, Vox, and Digitech.  Each of their units have their strong points and applications where one unit is better than another.  I could, and someday probably should, put together a comparison table listing the strengths and weaknesses of each of these units.  Not so that I can say the Axe is superior to all of them because it has drawbacks too, but as an educational and decision making tool.  Pick the right unit for your needs, in other words.  Line6 and others would come out on top of Fractal in many of those comparisons.  No one unit is "right" and none are "wrong".  But some do certain jobs better than others.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by parman on 2010-07-23 09:24:39

I have been reading the posts regarding which is the best one, Axe,X3 and so on and so on. I just want to say one more time like the

other guy did, they all have there place. For me I play alot of Lincoln Brewster material at my Church and I use a Custom Shop Strat

with Dimarzio P/U Area 61,58 and 67 in the middle.My rig sounds just like Lincolns and that is the tone I love. I use my Pod X3 Live

with a Boss OD3 to sup up my leads,its perfect. I know Linc uses an Axe now but to be honest I like his tone better with the X3 live.

I have a spare one incase something happens but I have never had to use it, my Pod has never let me down. So in my mind if something

isnt broken do not fix it, I will always use the Line 6 Pod X3 Live, enough said.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by spaceatl on 2010-07-23 12:31:11

If the particular features are not needed in a given situation then the claim that one is better than the other on that basis is a subjective generalized claim with no basis in fact...good try though...

I can't tell you which one is better because I have never tried any of them...pretty happy with what I have...

But when I chat with Karl, I must admit I would love to try one...Probably a dangerous thing for my wallet to do....



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by hippietim on 2010-07-23 12:55:23

If the particular features are not needed in a given situation then the claim that one is better than the other on that basis is a subjective generalized claim with no basis in fact...good try though...

This is precisely why I started my post with "Obviously it's judgement call based on your own needs and wants..." - I'm sorry that was not clear enough.  The post I was referring to asserted the Axe-FX is just an incremental improvement over the X3.  This is simply not accurate.  Well, I suppose we can say the increment is huge but I'm pretty certain that's not what the post was implying.  Anyone that has taken the time to understand what the Axe-FX actually is and can do would not intelligently dismiss it as such a minor delta - that is independent of whether or not it's worth it or not.

It's fine to say you don't need the features or that the sonic improvements are not worth the cost or that you don't want the complexity or that you don't even want to bother trying to understand what it does - but providing an evaluation of something you don't even understand is pretty silly and not particularly useful.    



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by spaceatl on 2010-07-23 13:52:07

Why do I feed them Karl?

That's right you did preface that your post was subjective...

"Obviously it's judgement call based on your own needs and wants, but to assert that the Axe-FX adds nothing in "core value or functionality" is a gross misrepresentation of the facts.  Simply put, there are very substantial features in the Axe-FX that are simply not present in any way, shape, or form on an X3 Pro.  Whoever said that has no grasp of what the capabilities of the Axe-FX are.  I do.  And I am also very much aware of what the X3 can do as I own one and use it as well."

But then...

Ironically, it is in fact this "core" of the Axe-FX that is so much better than the X3.

These are the facts as you interpret them for your needs...The person who does not understand, doesn't like, doesn't fit the AXE will reap no core value or functionality value and that is where gear gets subjective IMO...I really don't care...From your posts I guess I can assume the AXE is better for you than an X3, that much is clear...I pretty sure it's better for Karl than an X3...At least that seems to be his take on it...It's probably a good thing if someone realizes that peice of gear just isn't going to work for them...More important that they find what is right for them...Sometimes it can as simple as the interface being overwhelming to them...or just not wanting to deal with that much depth...To many possibilties to generalize in my view...

I just can't presume to tell anyone that one peice of gear is better than some other for them...Maybe if I know them really well I could make some suggestions, but in the end it's thier call...At least that is my opinion and how I approach that when it happens...and it happens to me a lot...

But please tell me I am wrong and continue to presume that I know nothing about the AXEFX...or the X3...

I do know what is better for me in terms of "Core Value" or "Functionality"...But that modeler isn't really discussed on this board...



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by hippietim on 2010-07-23 14:18:22

But please tell me I am wrong and continue to presume that I know nothing about the AXEFX...or the X3...

Nowhere in any post anywhere have I said you were wrong or presumed anything about you in any way.  I have yet to post about you at all.  You have clearly misinterpretted my posts.

In the end these discussions don't really seem to go anywhere useful.  Look at this thread - over 30 pages and it's full nitpicking or people making assertions about things they know nothing about.  There are hundreds (thousands?) of threads just like this on any number of forums (often amongs the same cast of characters) about Line 6, Boss, Digitech, Fractal and most of the discussions end up bringing up the zealots on either side.

And it gets silly.  People argue over what the proper use of the word "better" is when referring to a modeler.  Heck I've seen folks argue over arguing about what "better" is.  Most of these debates involve very little in the way of facts - they're just illogical emotion driven bickering.

In the end, it's just gear.  All of It will be superceded in some way and none of it is ideal.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by spaceatl on 2010-07-23 16:46:28

I guess the devil did not come across as sarcasm did it?...Don't read too hard...More of it is jerking the chain of somebody with 8 total posts that reads a lot like someone else...WhoDat!!!



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by hippietim on 2010-07-24 09:46:55

spaceatl wrote:

I guess the devil did not come across as sarcasm did it?...Don't read too hard...More of it is jerking the chain of somebody with 8 total posts that reads a lot like someone else...WhoDat!!!

I'm not sure what that's supposed to mean at all.  Are you saying that if I had 1463 posts it would matter some how?



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by HeavyChevy on 2010-07-24 15:10:14

Personally, I find that the Axe has less fizz than the Line6 modelers.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by toneman2121 on 2010-07-25 05:43:43

is there any other modeler that compares to the axefx? i think not. but don't you agree that if someone wanted to design a unit to compare or compete, all they would need is cash? because that's what we're talking about here...cash. i can hardly understand a computer or a computer program. but if i had enough cash i could build a modeler better than the axefx. i would simply hire the best minds to design and build it. and charge appropriately. with enough money i could get access to the top secret electronics in development. or better yet, hire the people who are designing the stuff. then i could be in control of the technology. as long as i had more money than everyone else. governments included. the point is we're talking about money. you would expect that a device that costs three to four times as much would would perform better. moreover, i am still at a loss to understand why everyone is comparing the pod to the axefx. yes there in the same field but different leagues. can you relate?

p.s. when i get $2000, i'll get an axefx



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by spaceatl on 2010-07-25 09:11:35

It means this thread needs to die...and you have no sense of humor...

What you are doing is nothing new....I am sure you have more posts than I do under your combined aliases...It's not new and fairly obvious when it is being done...You have to be a little more careful about your word phrasing...Your strategy is nothing more than a remnant of the Fizz War Threads of the past...



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by papersoul on 2010-07-25 18:28:13

Actually that is a good point on the "studio"! However, my point was not about a studio. That just happens to be where he keeps his toys. I have three friend's with studios. One is a simple home studio for his own pleasure. He has the AxeFX, a POD X3 and Eleven Rack. Another is a friend who build a fairly elaborate studio in his basement for his band's recordings and for recording other local band projects. The third is a friend who owns one of the most well known studios in musician circles not only in Philly but across the nation. In their studio has recorded Patty Labelle, Bruce Springsteen, Madonna, Bon Jovi and many others. It is a very nice studio. They do a lot of mixes. They mosty use tube amps when recording. They also have a ton of analog gear, it is crazy. Anyway, like I said...it's not about the "studio".

I had another  hour and a half to play around with the POD X3 and AxeFX this weekend. The Axe is a serious piece and sounds great, don;t get me wrong. To me I just feel the X3 is 90% there and for a lot less money. I feel it is a much better value and I decided to go that route. Anything will be tough to put up next to my 20th SHiva I just picked up recently but I have so much fun with modelling I have to have at least one rig.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Uncle_Os on 2010-07-26 01:47:01

Cool!  Good on ya. 

I just got a new POD X3.  Woot-woot! 



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by hippietim on 2010-07-26 07:26:33

spaceatl wrote:

It means this thread needs to die...and you have no sense of humor...

What you are doing is nothing new....I am sure you have more posts than I do under your combined aliases...It's not new and fairly obvious when it is being done...You have to be a little more careful about your word phrasing...Your strategy is nothing more than a remnant of the Fizz War Threads of the past...

Wow.  I'm hippietim on a dozen or more message boards - I've never used anything else.  I've got no idea where you'd come up with some bizarre theory like that but it's pretty obviously that you are pretty delusional and are just looking for some attention.

As for the fizz war threads - I do recall the old Line 6 message board having a bunch of those.  Those were lame too.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by spaceatl on 2010-07-26 08:00:38

You are absouluty correct...I am delusional and fizz threads are lame...But at least I don't wear sandals like some festival mud diving hippie...



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by HeavyChevy on 2010-07-26 09:58:54

delusional.................

One of my favorite words ala Lewis Black.  A word too seldom used on all modeler websites !!!

And please.  Everyone knows that festival mud diving hippies go in barefoot !!!



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by spaceatl on 2010-07-26 10:31:18

I am not sure the barefoot ones are actually hippies...But then I never really had any trouble from them...

This personal adage comes from my days as a FOH engineer and sizing up the local production engineers...I basically came to the conclusion that I could never trust the hiipie that claimed to be an engineer if he wore sandals...If he was wearing sandals you could could on the system being severely underpowered and subs would be wired out of phase...

Sure it's a stereotype...

But then I am the kind of guys that enjoys casually walking through the Widespead public recording area jiggling the chain on my chain wallet during sound check and watching the audiophiles freak out..."Am I Evil?"...."Yes, Yes I Am"...



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Dime13 on 2010-07-27 21:10:52

See following.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Dime13 on 2010-07-30 14:31:30

To add to that, metal is a very  difficult form of music to be able to give definition to when  live - most of the time the live drums are so clear and yet the electic guitars are hidden in loud mush.   So I would only use a digital modeler live only if the sound from my real amp is poorly  transferred from my cabs to the monitors, and resort to a back up rack modeler. But the cheaper mass-produced X3pro somehow still seems to me seems to cut through the mix well for the DOA tone.  Although I am open to hearing more of the axe.

I think at line 6, they made a number one priority out of  modeling some modded 800 to the cab with GT75s.   Because it  sounds exactly identical.  And the engine is definitely modified since  the original red units/XTs because those old ones could not do this sound.

I am preparing the evidence of the DOA tone from the  right side of disc one matched 99% almost dead on.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2010-07-30 15:17:20

.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by spaceatl on 2010-07-30 19:14:17

Personally I think I would prefer to have about 4-6 strippers than just one...

Modelers (Amplifiers) are like women...You turn them upside down and they all look like sisters......Does she make you feel good?



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Dime13 on 2010-07-30 22:15:17

the X3 pro does a relatively good jobs at modeling a modded 800 with the 1960 cab.  punches through well if signal filtered beforehand with the frown style EQ method or fixed bandpass filter before input.  time to see how the axe does it.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Dime13 on 2010-07-30 23:27:42

ok, i have decided to look at this objectively and forget about personal issues.  if the Axe can do what i want, I would want it.  So far I like hearing the Axe's 5150 tones.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2010-07-31 07:13:53

.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Dime13 on 2010-07-31 08:37:38

Karl Wrote: "I was about to call out that you're augmenting the X3 modeling with external gear, so the test isn't exactly "fair"."

I would have to disagree - how I choose to filter my signal before even entering POD farm is definetly up to my discretion.  What you are saying is the equivalent to saying "hey you used an EMG pick up instead of a non-active".  As such items have different frequency responses, etc.  Its fair game to hit the modeler with anything you wish before the fact.    I would only hear where you are coming from if I modified my signal with hardware after the fact.  But why is it unfair for me to condition my signal properly before input?  This is exactly what Kerry King and Jeff Hanneman do.  You have to filter or EQ before the fact.

With that said, can somebody please refer me to Axe FX clips that are similar or better than this?  it doesnt have to have the same mids, i am more concerned about achieving the distortion waveform if I buy the Axe, as I have decided to start fresh with that company, and will consider buying the unit if it is as high fidelity as everyone says it is.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2010-07-31 09:51:44

FarBeyond3 wrote:

With that said, can somebody please refer me to Axe FX clips that are similar or better than this?  it doesnt have to have the same mids, i am more concerned about achieving the distortion waveform if I buy the Axe, as I have decided to start fresh with that company, and will consider buying the unit if it is as high fidelity as everyone says it is.

When I see my Axe again next Tuesday, I'll bring it home with me and see what I can do to get something similar as you asked.  What kind of guitar did you use?  And if you can give me the specifics of your KFK EQ and other settings, that'd be a good starting point.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Dime13 on 2010-07-31 10:07:33

KFK Q-zone - not the MXR KFK EQ.    Q-zone setting on low, volume in the middle, and peak in the middle. The compressor pedal is not necessary.

i can take screen shots of the pro tools eq that is subtly the signal after,.... but very little EQing after - minor shaping.

Guitar was a Jeff Hanneman ESP with the EMGs.

JCM800 on Line 6 with bass at 2, mid at 3, and treble at 2, and gain at 5-6, and presence also vey low... because the SM57 is on axis and with the 75s its easy to get it bright.

If we can both post clips on higher quality sites such as sound click then it would be ideal to compare what i can get.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Dime13 on 2010-08-01 08:13:35

dude, dont worry about it, i'll just buy it and try it.  i will not make you waste your time dialing the setting, because i just heard about the biasing adjustments etc.   so if it has those kind of features, then i would be surprised if it cannot do it...  then i'll just get it, because it can prolly do what I am looking for.  its just too bad the mode 4 cab is not modeled.

Do you reccommend the ultra?  but first off, what FX does the ultra have that the standard one doesn't?  does it sound better?  and finally, what about the presets people are sharing on the main model on the fractal forum?  can those be used on the ultra too?



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by wardick on 2010-08-01 08:56:50

Surely you already know about this site?  http://axefxwiki.guitarlogic.org/index.php?title=Feature_comparison

Theysound the same except for things that are in the ultra and not in the standard.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2010-08-01 11:17:03

FarBeyond3 wrote:

its just too bad the mode 4 cab is not modeled.

Here's the good news:  if you can find an IR of the Mode4 cab, then you're set.  Just load it into the Axe-Fx.  This is the BEST feature of the Axe, in my opinion.  There are companies out there that will shoot custom impulses for you.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Dime13 on 2010-08-01 16:02:01

well i guess that didnt take much at all.  I have put over 2 grand worth of used stuff for sale online so I can buy the Ultra as i had no idea the sound was as good quality as my Access Virus synth (which was one of the problems of my studio - the Virus is whey too high fidelity sounding compared to my studio guitar modeled sound... and since I am primarily a guitar player and secondarily a synth guy, then I was told that it is imperative that I drop 2 grand on an axe unit for guitar if I can drop that much on a synth.

and I had no idea it was like a million times better sounding.  this is nuts!

oh well, i guess as the saying goes - "you win some and you lose some".  and I am definetly about to lose some very cherished items for this main priority right now.

here is all the stuff I am selling to be able to finally get this axe:

http://toronto.kijiji.ca/c-PostersOtherAds-W0QQUserIdZ38613707



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Dime13 on 2010-08-03 07:02:55

uhh, i am concerned with that mode 4 cab proposition, and for good reason.  the K100 speaker breaks up in a very agressive way past a certain volume when gain is high, i am not sure if you heard this particular effect from this speaker but it is surely crazy stuff.  But how can the IR loaded into the unit possibly match an effect like that? How can I be sure the IR was properly programmed in its algorithms to act like that speaker wreally would.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2010-08-03 08:17:41

Not sure of the answer to that question, but I'm a big fan of the K-100 speaker for high gain stuff.  I use the stock JCM2000 412 IR in the Axe for most stuff, and it is pleasing to my ear.  There are 1000 different ways to find satisfaction in this area of the Axe.  Go check out Redwirez and request the Mode4 cab be shot, if you find you really can't live without it.  I do know there is a "drive" parameter on the speaker simulation that has something to do with breakup.  But I've not really used it.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by cm70947 on 2010-08-19 12:02:34

I haven't read all of the posts in the thread but it seems that those who can afford will switch to Axe-fx, and for a very good reason. I have had my Pod X3 Pro since last May and have seriously come to conclusion that I have to get rid of it asap. That unit is not good for one's health nor is it good for playing either. I find it especially ridiculous that in some terms my 10 years older J-Station sounds actually better, whoa...I wish I hadn't spent my money to some other equipment so that I could buy the Axe-fx unit as well...



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by papersoul on 2010-08-19 18:54:45

I don't want to sound like a jerk...believe me the Axe FX is great! It is just for me and the cost, I prefer to have the POD X3 Pro for now. If money were no objext...I'd probly have the Axe.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Dime13 on 2010-08-20 09:55:44

Sorry to burst your bubble but a month ago I said exactly what you did and then when I thought I could match my favorite tones from initial demoing of X3, I tried everything with the X3 pro and Pod farm 2... and then I slowly started realizing the sound quality is just not there as I kept A-B-ing my modeling with my favorite tones out there... but the quality diffrence was too noticeable for me to accept even for demo music. 

And even last night... i tried everything again - Line 6, Guitar Rig, Revalver (what a noisy piece of junk by the way) - and since i could only use EQs to the limit without over-eq-ing to get any clarity, i then used a sonic maximizer insert in pro tools, but was still not clear or big enough, so then I inserted a Harmonic Maximizer after the Sonic maximizer...  as it still turned out, last night I have finally given up - current modeling is not clear enough for playing any type of heavy music - a type of music which you have to have perfect sound in otherwise it just sounds like noise because metal is the toughest type of music to sound good in.

So I am almost there, I am going to try one final thing in modeling - the axe fx and am still working on selling stuff to try to afford it. This will be the last resort and if not then I will record loud cabs for real when no one is around.    So therefore your "No money"  statement is simply not an excuse.  Its only 1500 and 2000 for the Ultra... compare this to 800 for an X3.   So if the axe fx is the million dollar sound that many pros are saying it is, then that would actually be extremely cheap for something sounding like that. But I still need to verify the quality for myself.  I will take the financial risk when I have money. But financial complaints such as yours have to be the lamest thing I have ever heard, especially when you can drop 800 on an X3 pro.  I was there too, and am slowly digging myself out of the wretched hole I previously dug myself in when I bought all the modelers.  I just sold Amplitube 3, and am selling one of my amps too. Almost there.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by papersoul on 2010-08-20 12:33:01

Hi FarBeyond....no point was that the Axe in my opinion after playing them side by side is about 10% better so I was not willing to go for it but dumping some of my favorite amps only to see L6 release something next year that is as good. I have been through this before with modelling gear and won't spend that much because in time it will lose value...like it or not, a lot of value. Give it time. My tube amps have not lost much value and then they level off.

Not the same with modelling gear. Plus I run through a tube power amp so then the playing field really starts to level out. Jamming with the band at the rehearsal space...hearing the difference was even more difficult. Again, I don't want to argue....we all do what we want and whatever makes us happy. My modelling rig is more for fun, some recording and "some" gigs. Mostly I use my Bogners and VHTs with pedals.

There is far too much tweaking with modelling gear for me to make it a full time rig and the Fractal is way too deep for me to have to deal with that. For guys who like it...that is great! More power to them. They found IT! I'll just wait till the next Pod Pro is released and then get a used one.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Dime13 on 2010-08-21 00:13:53

I hear from pros its alot more than just 10% better.  In fact, I hear it is the equivalent of comparing any virtual soft synth to an Access Virus synth (which is actually also a hardware based stream into either VST, AU, RTAS or other plug-in formats)  I know - i own one - and its a massive sound quality diference... my virus absolutely kkills every soft synth i own (i guess there is always something to be said for a high quality peice of hardware with high end componentsi inside). ... and I was told by many many sources that this similar comparision exists in this guitar modeling situation.

It makes sense because I had complained to my go to guy for knowledge - (a "human encyclopedia of knowledge" who has always helped me and has never ever been wrong in his advice for the last 15 years in his guidance to me) I complained that my guitar modeling does not come close to my Superior 2 drum sound qulaity nor to my Access Virus Synth quality - and that I have all the guitar plug-ins including Line 6 engines - but that the clarity is just not there and does not cut through compared to all the other high quality stuff in my digital studio----  and that this is an extremely disturbing situation since electric guitar is my main instrument - i am a guitar player for crying out loud - and it is not fair that I cannot have comparable quality in my guitar modeling - and in fact - the rest of my studio 0- like that ridiculously high quality evil Virus Synth with super high end S2 drums layed down along side my guitar modeling is a severely unwanted quality difference (a very stupid contrast which is plain whack) which forces me to use un-natural over- eq-ing to my guitar tone to try to have it somehow cut through like those other two - a nasty situation -  to which he simply said - "if you're willing to spend 2000 dollars on a synth, then you should also be willing to spend that much on a proper guitar modeling hardware system - and that you pretty much get what you pay for with the axe.   Logically his logic works - which is why i am saving up and am willing to order an axe-fx and take that risk - bnased on the logic.  so i hope this puts things into prerspective - because especiually for metal you have to have tone that cuts through with crystal clarity. Otherwise I find it pointless to even try - and might as well just get mics and record real amps.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by toneman2121 on 2010-10-23 18:14:13

this thread unofficially CLOSED!



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by wardick on 2010-10-23 20:07:05

How's Dat?



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Dime13 on 2010-10-24 08:01:30

Not yet.  How is this new Line 6 HD stuff compared to the Axe FX?



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by toneman2121 on 2010-10-24 14:39:01

notice i said unofficially



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by toneman2121 on 2010-10-24 14:39:57

haven't you read people's comments?



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Dime13 on 2010-10-24 17:45:14

what comments?



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2010-10-24 17:49:24

FarBeyond3 wrote:

what comments?

http://line6.com/community/thread/45938



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by janrycjoven on 2011-02-13 21:57:59

Audio axe-fx is very good. If you bought it in cheaper price is much better.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by rivertownmusic on 2011-03-15 14:57:28

Lets put a bit of perspective on this. The Axe-FX on the face of it by far outstrips anything Line 6 currently offers period! The presets are quite simply jaw dropping. Check out how many names use it. Its interesting to note that Line 6 don't appear to carry quite the same volume of endorsements, which to be frank says a great deal. I oddly enough actually use a Vetta ll which is probably the nearest thing Line 6 have to the Axe-FX. So why don't I use the Axe-FX? Well a number of reasons really and this where Line 6 stand head and shoulders over the rest of the competition.

1. The Axe-FX as yet is not proven as 'road reliable'. I have personally not had any significant trouble with any Line 6 product.

2. To fully appreciate the full potential of the Axe-FX you HAVE to shell out for a flat response valve amp which effectively bumps the price up into the 'ridiculous bucks'      bracket.It may be fabulous that the likes of Steve Vai and Adrian Belew use them, but how many of us have their disposable income?

3. Many Line 6 products require you to spend time to unlock their full potential but can with patience achieve much of what the Axe-FX can do, at a fraction of the cost!




Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Dime13 on 2011-03-15 21:45:00

rivertownmusic wrote:

I oddly enough actually use a Vetta ll which is probably the nearest thing Line 6 have to the Axe-FX.


Im  looking through the Vetta and Vetta 2 manuals.  But there seems to be nothing of the sort of deep amp editing as available on the Axe FX.   How does the engine  differ in the Vettas from the Pod stuff?


 So why don't I use the Axe-FX? Well a number of reasons really and this where Line 6 stand head and shoulders over the rest of the competition.


I realized over the last while that any comparision of this sort is  just not valid because the Axe FX is niche market, whereas the L6 stuff is mass market.


 1. The Axe-FX as yet is not proven as 'road reliable'. I have personally not had any significant trouble with any Line 6 product.



This can be demonstrated as false and there is no reason not to give the Fractal box the benefit of the doubt because the unit first came out  about 4-5 years ago and there is no evidence of anyone complaining about any reliability issues.   If you saw one of these things, you will  instantly realize it is built like a tank.  There is no way something of more plastic composition can be as road tough. 

The Fractal MFC foot controller is also build tank-solid and has to be the toughest foot controller i have ever layed my military boot on.   In addition, please refer to all the pros who tour with it and are very happy with reliability including  Messuggah (who've been on the road with it for 3 years now - they  switched from PODS in 2008), and also Periphery, Megadeth,  Steve Vai,  John Petrucci, etc, etc.


(I was referred to the unit  from not only Karl in here but also the Toontrack Superior drummer forum, because one of the creators  of Toontrack drums is the drummer of Messuggah. And when I found out  that the guitar players were using them in their racks, (2 each) - then I  had to have one.  And those guys used to be big pod fans and live pod  users.  They ditched all their rack modeleres including their pods and  GT-pros for the Axe-FX units in 2008.


Also here is a  video of the live gear for Chris Broderick from Megadeth - th Axe FX is  the guts of his tone. - observe he uses 2 Axe FX units live    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRfYSwi3dQY&feature=player_embedded#at=161

style="font-family: verdana,geneva;">

Dont worry they are reliable.  At least the most reliable audio box I have ever seen.  I have one beside an H8000FW in a rack.  And actually, the H8000FW needs to have a space on top and a space on the bottom because it heats up and needs the ventilation - otherwise you get reboot errors after a while. The Axe FX barely changes temperature and needs no ventilation (and thats $4000 cheaper than the H8000FW). 




2. To fully appreciate the full potential of the Axe-FX you HAVE to shell out for a flat response valve amp which effectively bumps the price up into the 'ridiculous bucks'


This  is a misconception. In fact, the beauty of it is that to appreciate the  full potential, you just need to plug-into a mixer because where it  shines the most is modeling a miked up cab in a studio - this is what  you hear back on your monitors.


As for distortions  and pres - sure it works well sent to a power amp and then its just  modeling a bunch of pres, but DI is the main purpose of the unit.  If I  were chris broderick, i would not even go to a poweramp live, i would  just go direct to the mixer like messugah does.


Although you are partially right in that investment for a DAW - however the investment is not for a power amp its for a converter to plug it into.


Last time I checked, I could not modify crucial amp parameters with a line 6 product as Tube Bias, Sag, Variac, and other crucial paramters. 



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by
Octo777 on 2011-03-16 03:55:37

Blah blah blah blah.

Who the feckin feck cares?

Who said that this was some sort of competition where Axe FX users have to come and defend their chosen equipment against Line 6?

If you choose to use Line 6 equipment, good for you. If you choose to use Fractal equipment, good for you too.

But no person is better than the other for choosing one product over the other, there is no right or wrong, whether you like it or not, your opinion on which device is better is purely subjective, so folks  need to get the feck down off their soap box and let this argument die already.

Seriously. It's BORING now.

Thread needs locked.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2011-03-16 06:36:44

rivertownmusic wrote:

Check out how many names use it.

...

It may be fabulous that the likes of Steve Vai...

It is interesting also to note HOW the two biggest names on their artist list use it:

Vai:  In a rack...somewhere.  Probably not even his live rig.  And if it is in there, it's for effects only.

Petrucci:  Also in a rack along with a bunch of REAL Mesa amps.  Effects only.  And IIRC, it's not his "A" rack.

They do have a lot of other artists out there using it, some as a complete solution, and they're doing great work with it.  Just temper those endorsements with the knowledge that they aren't allowed to tell you what they don't like about it.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by mput on 2011-03-16 06:39:21

LOL FB3...  Why do you still come hear to bust our chops about the Axe?  Most of us agree that the Axe is superior in sound quality, but at that price it better be!!!

2k for the the ultra... $750 for the foot control = $2750 vs $499 for something that works quite well.  come on get real.. its a no brainer.  so give it a rest.

M



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by amgamg on 2011-03-16 06:48:34

The funny thing about what artist uses what is....in the end your stuck using yours!

BTW..Vai also contributed a bunch of patches to a Zoom 2nu...and has been known to sing praises to the Boss DS-1...real pricey

extravagant gear!



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by rivertownmusic on 2011-03-16 06:50:44

Thanks for your comments.

Sounds like it works for you on all levels which is good for any guitarist who owns any kind of 'hi tech' equipment. I personally wouldn't  DI it through a PA though some guitarists including yourself do to great effect. I borrowed an Axe-FX Pro Ultra from a friend of mine recently and found that I, as he preferred the flat response power amp option (Atomic) as recommended by the manufacturers. Check out Adrian Belew's Utube demo, its worth a look but if the PA option does it for you then thats fine.

The point of reliability stems from my friends experience. The unit on occassion simply wouldn't for reasons I don't understand 'power up'. I believe he's sorted it now but that did serve to somewhat colour my judgement. Even tanks break down I guess.

The Vetta II in principle works the same as the Axe-FX even though there 'internals' differ. Yes, the Vetta may not be as flexible in certain areas but it does offer an astonishing array of options with a power amp and speakers thrown in.

I guess its all to easy to say one is better than the other, but it is important to debate other products alongside Line 6. I ultimately stand on the Line 6 side of the fence but Im also aware that there are a number of products by other companies which may at least in principle potentially do the job better. I am certain that Line 6 are aware of this and would imagine that they will be hard at work producing comparible technology to close the gap on products such as the Axe-FX. Todays 'niche market' inevitably becomes tomorrows 'mass market'. The debate must stand or how are we to progress onto better things.

Take care.

Chris



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by rivertownmusic on 2011-03-16 07:47:02

This is a forum. What may not interest you may interest others. Sometimes the point of a 'competitive' debate can spark an evolution into something more useful and positive. I guess it all depends on what level you see it from. To a point I get where your coming from, but if we are given a voice through a forum to pass comment and opinion, then a little tolerance from others is necessary. My overall point in all of this is to stimulate a useful debate on how Line 6 can improve on there already outstanding contribution to all us musicians. The Axe FX provides a good yard stick. Comparisons made between amps and FX can provide useful information to new commers as well as sending the developers at Line 6 a compass of where we, the musician would like to go, for as little cost as possible. With all due respect to yourself, your previous comments only serve to close down such debates and in doing so lessens the voice we have across the whole community. If this bores you then I would respectfully suggest that you participate on some other part of the forum. This thread most certainly does not need locking down. Or are we now living in China.

Kind Regards

Chris  



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by rivertownmusic on 2011-03-16 08:18:04

Yeh! Fair point well made. Vai probably carries as you said the Axe-FX as an FX option rather than a pre amp. I ve found that many artist endorsements are at least on the face of it a little 'suspect'. But as we know, an endorsement from a high profile artist provides the rocket fuel for sales. I would equally suspect that those 'coffee drinking' boffins at Line 6 are busying themselves on trying to figure a cost effective way of blending the Axe-FX's technology with the next generation HD amps/racks/floorboards. I for one certainly hope they are.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by rivertownmusic on 2011-03-16 08:26:30

...And I am extremely happy with mine. There's always something potentially better out there, but I guess striking a balance between what we want and what we can afford must be paramount. Personally I would love a hybrid of a Line 6 amp and the Axe-FX Pro Ultra. Are you listening Line 6? Do it for under £1500.00 with valves, make it simple to use and you'll outsell Henry Ford! Anyone for a Line 6 Mustang? Lol!



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Octo777 on 2011-03-16 09:12:36

rivertownmusic wrote:

This is a forum. What may not interest you may interest others. Sometimes the point of a 'competitive' debate can spark an evolution into something more useful and positive. I guess it all depends on what level you see it from. To a point I get where your coming from, but if we are given a voice through a forum to pass comment and opinion, then a little tolerance from others is necessary. My overall point in all of this is to stimulate a useful debate on how Line 6 can improve on there already outstanding contribution to all us musicians. The Axe FX provides a good yard stick. Comparisons made between amps and FX can provide useful information to new commers as well as sending the developers at Line 6 a compass of where we, the musician would like to go, for as little cost as possible. With all due respect to yourself, your previous comments only serve to close down such debates and in doing so lessens the voice we have across the whole community. If this bores you then I would respectfully suggest that you participate on some other part of the forum. This thread most certainly does not need locking down. Or are we now living in China.

Kind Regards

Chris  

Dude, thanks for the lesson, but I run forums and I understand the need/desire for a healthy debate.

But when the healthy debate descends into puerile  "My Dad is tougher than your Dad" type arguments then it is serving no purpose to anyone and it needs to end.

If this was my forum, I would have closed this thread a good few pages ago.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by amgamg on 2011-03-16 10:22:24

Your happy with ????? Your Zoom..DS-1???...HD500??? Vetta??? All of the beside??? You confused me a bit.

My point is not money related...I think better of some purchases cause I feel I want to or should but in the end I buy what I like.

My point is pulling out a list of endorsers means nothing to me...shouldn't mean anything to anyone. Big names can at anytime use anything...why should it mean a thing. Unless Steve Vai pops out of the box when I open it..I'm not impressed by what he is pictured or stated to use. Not only him...but any big name. If thats the evidence that everyone needs to own an AXE/FX...I consider it silly.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by amgamg on 2011-03-16 10:33:23

Octo..I agree with ya...but its not up to me or you to lock it up. Honestly...threads like this one can be sorta entertaining in a strange cyber-humerous kinda way. Depends if you let it bug you or not.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by rivertownmusic on 2011-03-16 10:39:15

Fair point! I accept and respect your opinion and do not wish to antagonise yourself or anyone else for that matter. I'm only trying to raise the debate to a level where we can find a degree of objectivity in making sensible in depth comparison/s. Passing objective comments on what bit of gear is better than another is part of the learning curve towards understanding products not only for myself but for others also. I do however understand that these debates can and have degenerated into slanging matches in the past. Every forum has one unfortunately, but it was and is not my intention to slag off other musicians equipment. Your input on this 'level' would be most welcome as I feel it is important to talk objectively. Understanding the levels of technology that other products from other companies offer is worth debating. Yeh! It may get a bit edgey sometimes but just so long as it dosn't as you say degenerate into 'my dad can kick your dads ass', then I see no harm. Respect to your forum experience though and thanks for your comment.

Kind Regards

Chris



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by rivertownmusic on 2011-03-16 10:46:14

I to consider it silly, but the point was worth mentioning. I don't speak for myself but product endorsements do inflate sales. Glad you bought what you wanted, not what the' man' says you should own. Respect ya for that Dude!



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by amgamg on 2011-03-16 10:55:45

Your right it does inflate sales. I remember all to well when I was about 14...didnt take long to learn I needed more than a shiney new Strat to play like Jimi! I think we all go through that...some of us learn to use what we like rather than what others play from the experience. Than again....gear is fun..sometimes I admit I buy just for the shear fun of having a new toy.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by rivertownmusic on 2011-03-16 19:50:04

New toys are often the food for new inspiration Dude!. Playing Hendrix requires no strat. Just any old guitar! If you can express it, any guitar will do. Though I suspect their will be someone who will vehemently disagree with us!

Imagine this... Line 6 and Fractal Audio decide to get married... "All those who disagree with this marriage speak now or forever hold there peace"! Every HD owner shouts" NAY!" Every Fractalite owner Shouts... "Uh?" ( Don;t panic!!! JOKE guys!) So! what d'yer love about the Axe-FX? This is a genuine techi question and is not designed to offend ( I've been told in no uncertain terms that my opinions are somewhat out dated and not conjusive to a line 6 debate and... invalid due to the fact im new to of all this) or harm any living creature including guitarists in any way.

Your X3 (now sold) is/was a mighty good processer. What was it that drew you to the Axe-FX? My experience of the Fractal Audio was sublime but short lived as I had to give it back! Ho Hum!  The presets were amazing! However, I just got a sound from my Vetta that would kick God's ass if it was allowed to, but unfortunately it may offend the ears of the forum and probably the whole of the U.S and European Bible Belt so I was forced to make it sound like an HD 'Whatever'!!!!! I believe they make em in fekin Ireland! ( Joke again! to all those outside looking in!).Joking to one side. Would you like to see a Line 6/Fractal Audio Hybrid?

Sincerely

Chris



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Dime13 on 2011-03-16 20:24:45

rivertownmusic wrote:

This thread most certainly does not need locking down. Or are we now living in China.

Kind Regards

Chris  

You'd be surprised.

Anyways, even if the difference is only minute, its because there is a general saying in audio that in order to get a small increment in sound quality difference, you need to pay triple the price.

Like with this apogee symphony that just came out -  most listeners can hear a small difference improved over from a rosetta - perhaps 20% better sounding, but you have to pay at least 3-4 times the price depending on what symphony module you go with.

As for steve vai, i believe he said it was flawless.  I disagree with that statement.  The sequencer blows.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Dime13 on 2011-03-16 20:28:28

Personally I would love a hybrid of a Line 6 amp and the Axe-FX Pro Ultra. Are you listening Line 6? Do it for under £1500.00 with valves, make it simple to use and you'll outsell Henry Ford! Anyone for a Line 6 Mustang? Lol!

I fail to understand.  These are two seperate companies with different target markets. This wish is not grounded in any reality.   And i am not sure what planet you've been living on but Fractal Audio is not exactly overly fond of Line 6.  If you want a L6 then buy a L6. if you want a Fractal Box, please buy a fractal box.

And anyways, there is a new Pod HD pro coming out, so why can't it just be its own beast?  They are working hard on it.  Certainly its gotta be alot better than the Floor based HD models since its taking so long otherwise it would have been out already.  Obviously its going to be a souped up HD.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by amgamg on 2011-03-17 03:58:12

It would be extremely funny if the two companies merged...Internet babble would be insane. Even so no matter what companies come out or join forces I still have an intact history of old Zoom processors that all function. Call it a  guilty pleasure....I keep them cause they are fun. Thing is....every MFX you can buy today from the cheapest to the best...in one way or another ...kicks their butt. Why is that? Simple...all these companies have had certain goals in mind related to MFX and they keep getting closer and closer to that dream. In all honesty...no matter what product you choose today...its better than the ones before it. None of the companies are the same..yet each of them has become better and better. Who wins in the end...who cares? The Beatles probably would have killed to have been able to use any of the MFX since the RP1 when they made Sgt Peppers...what would Hendrix have grabbed a hold of to record his stuff. Without any of it....the greatest recorded music ever done...the music that set all the bench marks. Music from the mid 60's to the mid 70's...all done without a POD or an AXE! My love of that era of music may be an opinion...but the way that music was produced...is an absolute fact. Maybe I'm not as picky as some folks today..cause I remember when all I had was an Akai sound on sound.



Use By Date Expired
by Crusty_Old_Rocker on 2011-03-17 04:18:56

What's the use by date on a forum thread discussing technology that has a product lifecycle of around 12 pico seconds?

Cheers,

Crusty



Re: Use By Date Expired
by amgamg on 2011-03-17 04:44:43

The real question is....What counts more...the plugged in..or the plugged into? 



Re: Use By Date Expired
by amgamg on 2011-03-17 04:55:54

how-to-get-a-horse-on-a-trailer.jpg

Also Crusty..they keep pulling up in these and off loading yet another innocent victim.



Re: Use By Date Expired
by nuser101 on 2011-03-17 07:35:47

amgamg wrote:

The real question is....What counts more...the plugged in..or the plugged into? 

Neither- the plugger is what counts.

Keep your zoom stuff. One of the best guitarists on the planet, a Nashville sessions player named Tom Wild (did a lot of stuff that you have heard from the 60s era - big time studio player), uses

a Zoom G2 Ritchie Kotzen signature model with a CMAT Mods Super Signa OD in front of a Deluxe Reverb Reissue.

I heard him play with this rig a couple of weeks ago, and I don't care what I do, or what equipment I have, I'll never come anywhere near that tonal or playing quality. It simply blew me away.



Re: Use By Date Expired
by amgamg on 2011-03-17 08:45:08

Those G series arent bad and they hold up better than you'd ever think. Even the plastic G-1's. They came up with new modeling...hasnt everyone...G1n and G2nu...way nicer than anyone gives credit.

My old Zooms go back even further and includes...go ahead..laugh if you must... 2020..3030..4040 and the ever popular 8080. Also have a 500 series distortion. The 4040's are way more usable than you'd think...anyway for doubters and those who wanna mess around..go on ebay..these are dirt cheap if you wanna see what once was....BTW..its always about the player IMO!



Re: Use By Date Expired
by nuser101 on 2011-03-17 09:07:14

Yeah, I kept all my old stuff, as well. The shocker for me is how much my old tube amps are selling for on ebay. I have a Music Man RD-11250 and a '69 Twin Reverb. I can't believe what those things go for, but I keep 'em anyway - it's a "thanks for the memories" kind of thing, although I do plan on getting a plexitube to put in front of the old Twin Reverb, just to see what it sounds like. More puzzling to me is that I have an old Ross distortion booster that cost me $39 (I thought that was a lot) in the early 70s, and I've seen those go for over $200 on ebay - trust me, that's vintage nostalgia, not vintage tone - they're nice, but not THAT nice.

The other one I've got, from about '67 or so ($10 back then), is a VOX distortion "black box" that had a quarter inch jack and plugged straight into your guitar (can't use them on Strats, because of the notched plug). That one is worth whatever anyone would pay. It has the creamiest "fuzz" I've ever heard - but I won't sell that, either.

You'll see me on the next episode of  "Hoarding - Guitar Edition" on the learning channel.



Re: Use By Date Expired
by amgamg on 2011-03-17 10:11:23

563424.jpg

That's frightening..Guitar hoarders I can see it. So many hoarders from the early days of the Internet forums. Guitar market crashes just as Gruhn predicted under the weight of a ga-jillion limited edition Fender Custom Shop Strats. They open the door there's a mountain of cases...boxes...cartons...walls lined and stacked with amplifiers falling over into a pile supported by each other.Headphone cables strewn from one end to the other like Christmas lights. Trails of ear buds leading to the bathroom. From under the rubble...a computer monitor glares...some guy buried with it cursing out  a brand of freekin' drum machine plug-ins as he types frantically.   



Re: Use By Date Expired
by Dime13 on 2011-03-18 13:22:58

AmgAmg wrote:


The real question is....What counts more...the plugged in..or the plugged into? 


And then  nuser101 wrote:

Neither- the plugger is what counts.


This is often something people all over the internet debate about, completely unaware of the fact that it is actually all 3 of those variables that count at a certain level.

An F1 car on an F1 track will be useless in an F1 race if the operator is a person who is experienced in driving go-karts. 


And equally so, if you put Michael Schumacer in a go-kart, on an F1 track in an F1 race, this combination would also be useless.

Therefore I think we can safely say that this matter has officially been settled, and this thread can be closed from further discussion which would not be necessary.




Re: Use By Date Expired
by amgamg on 2011-03-18 13:51:28

Poor craftsman blames his tools...but you can win if it means that much to ya.



Re: Use By Date Expired
by toneman2121 on 2011-03-18 15:27:44

so you, plus a guitar, plus an ax-fx equals what?



Re: Use By Date Expired
by Dime13 on 2011-03-19 20:49:40

amgamg wrote:

Poor craftsman blames his tools...but you can win if it means that much to ya.

I am not out to win anything.

This discussion is not about the craftsman.

And speaking of that, sorry but 'Craftsman' brand tools are not a brand that the Crafts-'men' at Nasa would use.

[EDIT - i meant "mastercraft tools" which are cheap are not used at Nasa, i think craftsman might be the good quality ones].



Re: Use By Date Expired
by Mr_Arkadin on 2011-03-20 03:53:04

FarBeyond3 wrote:


Therefore I think we can safely say that this matter has officially been settled, and this thread can be closed from further discussion which would not be necessary.

You logic is irrefutable, oh mighty one. We shall bow to your greater knowledge - even though I have yet to hear one example of your mighty engineering work with your mythical Axes and Apogees.

Are you here just to be a troll and get threads locked? This one is well on the way to becoming the second thread you derail into extinction. Well done.



Re: Use By Date Expired
by nuser101 on 2011-03-20 05:45:34

How often do you get out of your car to argue with stop signs? Does it bother the people behind you? Just askin...



Re: Use By Date Expired
by amgamg on 2011-03-20 05:53:25
You logic is irrefutable, oh mighty one. We shall bow to your greater knowledge - even though I have yet to hear one example of your mighty engineering work with your mythical Axes and Apogees.

Mr. Arkadin..I second the motion.

Enough of all this ....I would like to hear the superior results  FB3 can demo. I am now of great interest to listen to music that is Far Beyond...no pun intended. Please FB3...give us tangible proof of what for the moment remains purely academic.



Re: Use By Date Expired
by amgamg on 2011-03-20 06:12:19

horserescue2.jpg

Could not be beaten more....this appears to be the work of FB3...why wont he just post some clips already?



Re: Use By Date Expired
by Mr_Arkadin on 2011-03-20 07:06:33

amgamg wrote:

why wont he just post some clips already?

Probably because he's actually just the Teaboy wannabe. A real engineer would not deal in absolutes: this is better than that because the spec says so/I have golden ears etc. Real engineers have been there and done it.

You either have to be a troll or twelve (or both) to believe in such absolutes, to believe you're the only one that can be right and to believe in, "This is the ultimate (insert latest expensive technology here), your search is over". Really that just shows a lack of real world experience.



Re: Use By Date Expired
by amgamg on 2011-03-20 07:38:50

New technology is a funny thing. There's a cable TV show called Cash & Carrie....if your aware of it I kinda watch it cause I dig Carrie...but....its a collectable show and this chick holds estate sales. To the point...this girl deals in dresser drawers yet one show she came across some old Telefunkin gear..studio preamps....that stuff was worth a fortune cause people will pay unheard of money cause they intend to use it...even today that old stuff is highly regarded for great sound. Carrie knew it very well. The stuff was worth like 14k.

All that aside and back to likes of FB3.... I sometimes think the Axe/FX guys need reassurance they really got their monies worth by reaming those of us who don't use the Fractal gear.

Just the same...I would like to hear a clip already...if its good..its good! At this point..put your sound out there...if its that much better..be proud..show off your wares. Although..that could open the can of worms regarding...anyone can stir the soup...some who stir create gourmet taste treats...others...create poo using the same spoon.



Re: Use By Date Expired
by Dime13 on 2011-03-22 13:02:36

Mr_Arkadin wrote:

You logic is irrefutable, oh mighty one. We shall bow to your greater knowledge - even though I have yet to hear one example of your mighty engineering work with your mythical Axes and Apogees.

Just because I have tried Apogees in the past with others in other locations does not mean I use an apogee in my home environment.  I find my Eventide H8000 good enough to convert.   Don't make faulty assumptions.


Are you here just to be a troll and get threads locked? This one is well on the way to becoming the second thread you derail into extinction. Well done.

No I am not here to get it locked.  I am here to speak a message to L6 in an era where digital synthesis is still sadly beyond guitar modeling technology.

Looks like people are attaching new meanings to the word troll, and oblivious to the fact that they them selves still represent the original meaning in its truest form.  Thank you for being exemplary.

And if speaking my honest opinion warrants a thread being locked - as you are right - has happened to the last one - then the red colors you see at the sides might as well augment themselves because the red theme of silencing honest disagreeing canditates matches well here.



Re: Use By Date Expired
by Dime13 on 2011-03-22 13:04:08

Not as often as how often you get out of bed in the summer to tell the crickets to be quiet.



Re: Use By Date Expired
by Dime13 on 2011-03-22 13:10:59
Mr. Arkadin..I second the motion.

Enough of all this ....I would like to hear the superior results  FB3 can demo. I am now of great interest to listen to music that is Far Beyond...no pun intended. Please FB3...give us tangible proof of what for the moment remains purely academic.

Amgamg  actually believes online clips are evidence.  LOL.  He does not realize that such things do not exemplify evidence.   Its not even considered evidence in the least bit since the source of clips cannot be verified as authentic regardless.  What he also does not realize is that in an investigative field such as this one - real evidence can only be truly represented by first hand verification in person.

Amgang does not know science, but before he tries learning that,  one must refer him to any basic logical fallacy overview resource for an intro to a basic understanding of reasoning and critical thinking skills.



Re: Use By Date Expired
by Mr_Arkadin on 2011-03-22 13:35:25

FarBeyond3 wrote:

Amgamg  actually believes online clips are evidence.  LOL.  He does not realize that such things do not exemplify evidence.   Its not even considered evidence in the least bit since the source of clips cannot be verified as authentic regardless.  What he also does not realize is that in an investigative field such as this one - real evidence can only be truly represented by first hand verification in person.

Amgang does not know science, but before he tries learning that,  one must refer him to any basic logical fallacy overview resource for an intro to a basic understanding of reasoning and critical thinking skills.

Is that the long-winded way of saying you're full of it?



Re: Use By Date Expired
by amgamg on 2011-03-22 13:58:12

Yaknow....When you didn't respond for awhile I really started to think you might be preparing something interesting to listen to for a change. Sure it would not have been the ultimate proof of all time and first hand experience might very well make a better comparison.....but.....No..oh..ooooooo! Just more of the same dribble. Even if you had come back with some explanation that you tried to make some clips but didn't like them I'd have some respect for that. Even if you posted something and thought you weren't at your best I would have given you quite a bit of credit for having the nads to at least give it try. Yet again  ....yap..yap..yap..like an endless recording of some so called intelligent swill.

Honestly I never require proof of anything from anyone in forums like this. People are entitled to thier opinion. When you antagonize as you do though some form of evidence would have been really cool for a change.  Thought you might be cooler than that..but your not! 



Re: Use By Date Expired
by toneman2121 on 2011-03-22 14:38:25

you're not just disagreeing with people's opinions, you're telling them out right that they're wrong and shouldn't have wasted they're time posting, backing up your silly logic with claims of absolute knowledge and experience of everything and anything someone has to offer. there's a term for people who know they're always right and think they're above everyone else. it's farbeyond3.  you don't strike me as all that intelligent either because of the way you use words or try to use them. or how you interpret others comments. just what are you trying to gain? wether you're right or wrong, nobody's going to side with you because of your attitude. after all of the negative rebut concerning your posts, don't you think you might take a look at yourself? i am tired of listening to you.



Re: Use By Date Expired
by toneman2121 on 2011-03-22 14:44:26

FarBeyond3 wrote:

Not as often as how often you get out of bed in the summer to tell the crickets to be quiet.

at least the crickets are animate and often do quiet when a loud noise is heard. how do the stop signs react to you?



Re: Use By Date Expired
by nuser101 on 2011-03-22 15:14:38

Thanks, toneman! I find the sound of crickets to be quite soothing, especially when nursing a Glenfiddich on my back patio.They have a musical timbre that is quite unlike the noise some creatures make...



Re: Use By Date Expired
by Dime13 on 2011-03-23 13:24:43

Mr_Arkadin wrote:

Is that the long-winded way of saying you're full of it?

No, just a normal way of demonstrating how its not considered evidence.  Its called supporting claims.  Ever hear of it?

But nice try.



Re: Use By Date Expired
by Dime13 on 2011-03-23 13:27:28

amgamg wrote:

Yaknow....When you didn't respond for awhile I really started to think you might be preparing something interesting to listen to for a change. Sure it would not have been the ultimate proof of all time and first hand experience might very well make a better comparison.....but.....No..oh..ooooooo! Just more of the same dribble. Even if you had come back with some explanation that you tried to make some clips but didn't like them I'd have some respect for that. Even if you posted something and thought you weren't at your best I would have given you quite a bit of credit for having the nads to at least give it try. Yet again  ....yap..yap..yap..like an endless recording of some so called intelligent swill.

Honestly I never require proof of anything from anyone in forums like this. People are entitled to thier opinion. When you antagonize as you do though some form of evidence would have been really cool for a change.  Thought you might be cooler than that..but your not! 






If you want evidence, go find real evidence.  I am not going to post  clips when the difference is so obvious.  And I am not telling anyone  here my real myspace page.  AND FYI --- I NO LONGER OWN AN APOGEE.

The evidence is in the try  it before committing to it policy of fractal.  The evidence is  available for first hand verification to all.



Re: Use By Date Expired
by Dime13 on 2011-03-23 13:37:59

toneman2121 wrote:


at least the crickets are animate and often do quiet when a loud noise is heard. how do the stop signs react to you?

Throw enough sonig energy at a stop sign and it would be blown away.  But violence is not the answer to the truth of a matter.  If a Stop sign is in an area where it ought not to be, I would not use force, I would be civilized and take it to the governor of my region.   But the erection of a stop sign in an area where traffic need not be impeded by stopping - is unwarranted - as you have pretty much attempted here.    And there is no reason for you to yell at the crickets.  If you dont want to hear them, then close your window.  You dont force other beings into being coerced by your own preferences.  

And btw - others do not mind their sound, as just witnessed above.  Similar to how a few others do not mind my honest inquiry here - because they granted the fact that this is not North Korea's cage.  I am sharing my perception of how I see the facts and anyone is free to make a civilized challenge in a civilized manner, and not with all these rude and inconsiderate replies to my honest perception of what I percieve to be the hard facts - whether you like that or not.   If you are not interested in inquiring about the truth as others are doing who I am  also trying to help out, and if you are interested in blocking off this thread, then feel free to do so.  But falsehoods to survive - must be kept in the dark, and the truth is closed off as you would like to see this thread closed.  Sorry but thats not how inquirers into the truth operate.



No milk will ever be our milk.
by TheRealZap on 2011-03-23 13:57:40

FarBeyond3 wrote:

toneman2121 wrote:


at least the crickets are animate and often do quiet when a loud noise is heard. how do the stop signs react to you?

Throw enough sonig energy at a stop sign and it would be blown away.  But violence is not the answer to the truth of a matter.  If a Stop sign is in an area where it ought not to be, I would not use force, I would be civilized and take it to the governor of my region.   But the erection of a stop sign in an area where traffic need not be impeded by stopping - is unwarranted - as you have pretty much attempted here.    And there is no reason for you to yell at the crickets.  If you dont want to hear them, then close your window.  You dont force other beings into being coerced by your own preferences.  

And btw - others do not mind their sound, as just witnessed above.  Similar to how a few others do not mind my honest inquiry here - because they granted the fact that this is not North Korea's cage.  I am sharing my perception of how I see the facts and anyone is free to make a civilized challenge in a civilized manner, and not with all these rude and inconsiderate replies to my honest perception of what I percieve to be the hard facts - whether you like that or not.   If you are not interested in inquiring about the truth as others are doing who I am  also trying to help out, and if you are interested in blocking off this thread, then feel free to do so.  But falsehoods to survive - must be kept in the dark, and the truth is closed off as you would like to see this thread closed.  Sorry but thats not how inquirers into the truth operate.

Mr. Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic  things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent  response were you even close to anything that could be considered a  rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having  listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your  soul.



Re: Use By Date Expired
by Mr_Arkadin on 2011-03-23 13:58:40

This is funny now. Dodging any actual links to your so-called output - you can post full res wavs on the internet you know. Or can I only judge your work in 192kHz with an Apogee?

How can anyone be as naive as to suggest you can use science to judge tone? Laughable. How is it that some people prefer the sound of inferior vinyl over digital recordings? Are they wrong to like what they like? It's not even like people disagree that the Axe FX is good, it is your ridiculous notion of being able to scientifically prove it. Tone is what you like, regardless of whether it was produced at 44.1k or 192k with 16 bits or 32 bits. If you think science gives you good sound then you have a lot to learn as a so-called engineer. Science gets you so far, talent will get you further.

You talk the big talk but don't deliver. You say "you're free to challenge" but then talk of absolute truths that are irrefutable. Stop trying to come across as the put down party in this thread, you do not seek the truth - that requires an open mind. Something any good engineer and producer has - closed minds produce little of worth.

In reality I think we have all been duped into thinking this troll is a real person that actually thinks in the way he does.



Re: Use By Date Expired
by silverhead on 2011-03-23 14:12:27

Mr_Arkadin wrote:...

In reality I think we have all been duped into thinking this troll is a real person that actually thinks in the way he does.

I've thought that too. I really just come here now for the entertainment that FB3 consistently provides. I think one day we'll discover that his ramblings are being generated in some lab by an AI prototype of some sort. Surely no sane mind can think in the way required to generate those postings. It's quite hilarious.

I particularly like the suggestion that his belief is so obviously true that he doesn't need to demonstrate its truth. I remember my 2-yr old calling me out on that one. "Why, Daddy?" "Because I said so!"  ....."But why, Daddy?"



Re: No milk will ever be our milk.
by Dime13 on 2011-03-23 14:27:52

TheRealZap wrote:

Mr. Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic  things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent  response were you even close to anything that could be considered a  rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having  listened to it.

Its too bad you fail to demonstrate how that is so - thereby rendering your claims useless.  You fail to show how its incoherent or how its rambling.  How so?  Unsupported claims will get you nowhere.



Re: Use By Date Expired
by Dime13 on 2011-03-23 14:35:08

Mr_Arkadin wrote:

This is funny now. Dodging any actual links to your so-called output - you can post full res wavs on the internet you know. Or can I only judge your work in 192kHz with an Apogee?


It is another crap assumption for you to believe I work at a high sample rate like that.  Operating at 192k is not the only reason to use a higher end converter.  FYI i operate in 96. LOL

your ridiculous notion of being able to scientifically prove it. Tone is what you like, regardless of whether it was produced at 44.1k or 192k with 16 bits or 32 bits. If you think science gives you good sound then you have a lot to learn as a so-called engineer. Science gets you so far, talent will get you further.


And a combination of both will get you even further.   And by the way, the Axe FX only operates at 48k. ROTFFL


You talk the big talk but don't deliver. You say "you're free to challenge" but then talk of absolute truths that are irrefutable. Stop trying to come across as the put down party in this thread, you do not seek the truth - that requires an open mind. Something any good engineer and producer has - closed minds produce little of worth.

In reality I think we have all been duped into thinking this troll is a real person that actually thinks in the way he does.

No you are the troll, completely trying to hijack my opinion.  I owe you nothing. The hardware speaks for itself.   I am open to L6 producing a better product.  So far it has not been forthcoming. Thats my opinion.  You do anything to dismiss it.  Thats what i call mastered trolling on your behalf according to the real definition of troll.  A complete disregard for others opinions.  All my posts are not out of line considering the nature of what the OP posted.



Re: No milk will ever be our milk.
by Mr_Arkadin on 2011-03-23 14:35:10

FarBeyond3 wrote:

Its too bad you fail to demonstrate how that is so - thereby rendering your claims useless.  You fail to show how its incoherent or how its rambling.  How so?

Just listen to yourself - no-one talks like that. Your response demonstrates perfectly. It's like some mad Yoda speak.



Re: No milk will ever be our milk.
by nuser101 on 2011-03-23 16:07:52

I am the Lord Your God from the land of far beyond, Thou shalt not have false processors before me.

You shall not make for yourself false tones with processors other than mine own, or you shall inherit the wrath of my father, Cliff, who bans all posters that do not praise mine equipment before me..

You shall not breathe the name of the Axe, thy FX, in vain, for it is the father of tonal goodness, and knew it before time began.

Remember the day of introduction, and keep it holy, for its produce costs $2500 with a controller that is subject to my wrath.

Honor thy Cliff and his processor, lest ye face everlasting atonality.

Thou shalt not kill thine processor.

Thou shalt not commit adultery with other processors. Such thing is an abomination before Cliff the father.

Thou shalt not steal Benoit Mandelbrot fractal algorithms for thine own gain.

Thou shalt not bear false witness against thine Axe, nor may thee praise another who does not one use.

Thou shalt not covet thy neighbors Axe, unless thou shellest out the first fruits of thine own greenbacks.



Re: Use By Date Expired
by toneman2121 on 2011-03-23 19:03:23

WHAT!!!???

Throw enough sonig energy at a stop sign and it would be blown away.  But violence is not the answer to the truth of a matter.  If a Stop sign is in an area where it ought not to be, I would not use force, I would be civilized and take it to the governor of my region.  But the erection of a stop sign in an area where traffic need not be impeded by stopping - is unwarranted - as you have pretty much attempted here.    And there is no reason for you to yell at the crickets.  If you dont want to hear them, then close your window.  You dont force other beings into being coerced by your own preferences.  And btw - others do not mind their sound, as just witnessed above.  Similar to how a few others do not mind my honest inquiry here - because they granted the fact that this is not North Korea's cage.  I am sharing my perception of how I see the facts and anyone is free to make a civilized challenge in a civilized manner, and not with all these rude and inconsiderate replies to my honest perception of what I percieve to be the hard facts - whether you like that or not.  If you are not interested in inquiring about the truth as others are doing who I am  also trying to help out, and if you are interested in blocking off this thread, then feel free to do so.  But falsehoods to survive - must be kept in the dark, and the truth is closed off as you would like to see this thread closed.  Sorry but thats not how inquirers into the truth operate.

just be quiet now



Re: Use By Date Expired
by amgamg on 2011-03-24 03:48:57
I am not going to post  clips when the difference is so obvious.  And I am not telling anyone  here my real myspace page.

Come on Mr. FB3..we wanna hear your excellent sound!


mathers.jpg



Re: Use By Date Expired
by amgamg on 2011-03-24 03:51:02

tdow2.jpg

Beave everybody knows you can't hear sound that good!



Re: Use By Date Expired
by amgamg on 2011-03-24 03:53:24

Thats right Beave...Wally's correct! Its been documented...by the sounds creater... FB3 himself!

6d_1.jpg



Re: Use By Date Expired
by amgamg on 2011-03-24 03:56:36

billings.jpgBeaver..Wally..How many times have I told you to stay away from that FB3 person...He's creepier than that Eddie Haskel!



Re: Use By Date Expired
by amgamg on 2011-03-24 04:03:26

eddy hascel.jpgThanks Mrs. C...I told ya that FB3 guy was strange!



Re: Use By Date Expired
by rivertownmusic on 2011-03-24 09:45:57

I think this is turning into a chicken shoot, 'sept there's only one chicken with a leg missing.

If you want to stem this tide of rebuke against your 'opinions' (n I'm not entirely convinced that you do) and claw back what little respect you have left, then let us hear your proof. Plug us in man! And let our ears judge the 'superior' claims of Cliff's science!



Re: Use By Date Expired
by nuser101 on 2011-03-24 12:00:12

Gee, I don't know Wally, we might all end up like this guy - all heavy and stuff. We'd get in trouble with Mom and Dad!

http://www.myspace.com/farbeyondthesunrise



Re: Use By Date Expired
by TheRealZap on 2011-03-24 12:18:41

is that really him? because the guitar tones are the only thing going for those wretched tunes...



Re: Use By Date Expired
by amgamg on 2011-03-24 12:37:19

Maybe this one 

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=816729&content=music

style="font-size: 12pt;">This ones noisey enough to an AXE/FX user ...might like the drummer though....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sl64-xfewrk



Re: Use By Date Expired
by amgamg on 2011-03-24 13:02:43

FAM02.jpgGee Wiz Wally...So far all this Far Beyond stuff just sounds really angry and mean.



Re: Use By Date Expired
by nuser101 on 2011-03-24 14:21:58

Disclaimer: I have no knowledge that "Far Beyond 3" is in any way representative of or represented by "Far Beyond the Sunrise." My post was merely a jocular meandering of the mind, aka - brain fart. Any similarities to individuals or groups, alive or dead, is purely coincidental, and not an accurate representation of reality, as this entire thread demonstrates.



Re: Use By Date Expired
by rivertownmusic on 2011-03-24 20:43:20

Would you agree?

There's a large market for FB3's 'Death' or 'Progressive' Metal (I think that's what it's called) but its not really my bag. The satan vocal bad bubba dark thing gets in the way a bit though I do have one or two students who eat this kinda stuff. However! I really dug the playing and thought they nailed that 'modern' metal vibe. The tones were really good and they do work well in that genre. A dynamic sound comparison in someways would be Porcupine Tree's (Progressive Rock) heavier excursions. If you listen to 'Shallow' from the album 'Deadwing' you can kind of hear a comparable vibe though the song styles are I must stress very different. I much prefer PT's tone. After buying the album I later discovered they'd used...............wait for it!............Yes! That's right, Line 6!

Which brings me to the all to predictable point of saying that at this level or stage of the debate, that tone... and I do mean really well recorded tone... is subjective to the listener! In the sound engineering world there's a kind of standard 'tuning' of what is regarded as 'quality' tone. Each genre has one and is 'flexible'. One is no better than the other inspite of what 'science' might have to do with it. Within a multitude of racks lies a multitude of tones. However good, or appropriate FB3's tone is, its only a part of what 'it' can do, as it is with all the rest of the 'brands'. All I can say is that I prefer the Line 6 tone on that PT song. Now I really may be oversimplifying this part but in FB3's world, would I seem to have to rationalize that Line 6 would be 'better' than Fractal? In my world both are 'better' in different ways dispite the similarities in their science. Mind you, better science dosn't always deliver 'better' tone, though I suspect that one day it might.

Hey Man! Sometimes I get all crazy n stuff and switch on my analogue fire to get warm, then its back to the cold 'convenience' world that is wonderfully digital. GOD BLEEEESS Bill Gates for this forum! The day I'll laugh loudest is when some other company includes a model of a 'Flextone' on there current flagship modelling amp. A model of a model that does models. AHHHHHHHHHH! OK! Im Old and I lose my way sometimes! LOL!    



Re: Use By Date Expired
by nuser101 on 2011-03-25 05:23:11

Hard to disagree with the fact that tone is subjective. If I sounded like that progressive stuff, I'd sell my gear. Not because something's inherently wrong with that subjective application of tone, but because it isn't me.

I posted this in another thread, and I'll repeat it here. One thing I've noticed is that experienced players don't blink an eye at  what's under your feet. They only listen. I've sat in  with all kinds of bands. Not one of them said "Why are you using that  crap?" I have gotten the occasional "Man, that thing cuts throught the mix, I might have to pick one up" response.  I've seen one of the best players in the world step out on the stage with a Zoom G2R, a CPhat Mod OD,  and an SM-57 draped over a Deluxe Reverb - nothing else. I didn't ask for my money back (he sounded far better than I ever would or could, and the guitarists I know would have killed to be on stage with him).

Use what you like - listen, then discard or buy - but don't let someone else tell you who you are, and believe me, your tone is part of who you are - it's value doesn't correlate with the price of the box you use.



Re: Use By Date Expired
by rivertownmusic on 2011-03-25 06:02:51

Wise words Dude.



Re: Use By Date Expired
by amgamg on 2011-03-25 08:05:48

Its awfully funny what the world has turned into. People want credit for the tools they own rather than the craft they demonstrate. I remember when I was a kid you used what ya had. There were guys playing Sabbath on Tele's with Big Muffs thru solid state amps. Sometimes that worked well sometimes it didn't. I don't remember anyone being respected because they played a Les Paul thru a Marshall...they got respect cause of they way they played. Getting back to Axe/FX. I was looking thru catalogs of recording gear. One decent desk can easily go 10k. One EQ can be 5k...compressors the same thing. All this fuss over Axe/FX in comparison to the investment in a "pro" studio...is miles and miles apart..quite laughable at best.



Re: No milk will ever be our milk.
by Dime13 on 2011-03-25 09:55:30

Mr_Arkadin wrote:

Just listen to yourself - no-one talks like that. Your response demonstrates perfectly. It's like some mad Yoda speak.

Another circumventive statement by you to avoid the fact that you havent shown how or why i was even rambling. And avoiding to engage the actual facts. So typical.   If you think i am some mad yoda speaking as a result, then you must be a total bozo because you haven't addressed a single point.



Re: Use By Date Expired
by Dime13 on 2011-03-25 09:58:11

toneman2121 wrote:

WHAT!!!???

In other words (since it looks like you do not have the capacity to connect sentences together into meanings beyond the grade 4 level) - basically - in other words -  if you dont like people expressing their honest opinions of how they see the facts, then you ought not to participate here.  Because the thread ought NOT to be locked as you wish it to be.   Go to north korea where you belong.



Re: Use By Date Expired
by Dime13 on 2011-03-25 10:00:05

amgamg wrote:

tdow2.jpg

Beave everybody knows you can't hear sound that good!

Dude you have no idea what you are talking about and you have your meanings all confused.



Re: Use By Date Expired
by Dime13 on 2011-03-25 10:03:31

nuser101 wrote:

Hard to disagree with the fact that tone is subjective. If I sounded like that progressive stuff, I'd sell my gear. Not because something's inherently wrong with that subjective application of tone, but because it isn't me.

Use what you like - listen, then discard or buy - but don't let someone else tell you who you are, and believe me, your tone is part of who you are - it's value doesn't correlate with the price of the box you use.

You are right, tone is subjective.  Quality is not.



Re: Use By Date Expired
by Dime13 on 2011-03-25 10:28:44

amgamg wrote:

Getting back to Axe/FX. I was looking thru catalogs of recording gear. One decent desk can easily go 10k. One EQ can be 5k...compressors the same thing. All this fuss over Axe/FX in comparison to the investment in a "pro" studio...is miles and miles apart..quite laughable at best.

Comparing digital to analog again?  LOL.

Anyways, the engineers are not saying its miles apart... well they are, but in reverse. In fact, in blindfolded tests they are erroneously judging the real thing you have just noted as being the Axe, and erroneously believing the Axe as being what you just noted.  Call any major million dollar studio and ask them.  Do your research.  Don't rely on me to post clips. Because then you would be regarded as highly unprofessional.  Oh but wait, i think you have already demonstrated this long ago.



Re: Use By Date Expired
by amgamg on 2011-03-25 10:51:37

Whatever th_blow-me-nasty-joke-card.jpg



Re: No milk will ever be our milk.
by Mr_Arkadin on 2011-03-25 11:40:43

FarBeyond3 wrote:

Another circumventive statement by you to avoid the fact that you havent shown how or why i was even rambling. And avoiding to engage the actual facts. So typical.   If you think i am some mad yoda speaking as a result, then you must be a total bozo because you haven't addressed a single point.

Sorry, but there was a point in your posts? Must have missed it surrounded by all that the flowery language. Sorry, calling other people 4th graders (not sure what that is over here), but I do know that your style of writing is exactly what we used to do in the 6th form when we were trying to sound all intellectual and grown up. We grew out of it.

I can see you like to talk down to people and try to make it look intellectual and scientific to give you the higher ground when in reality you're on very shaky foundations.



Re: Use By Date Expired
by Mr_Arkadin on 2011-03-25 11:44:13

FarBeyond3 wrote:

Don't rely on me to post clips. Because then you would be regarded as highly unprofessional.

You're such a professional but there are no clips of your amazing engineering. Most good engineers would stand behind their output, not try and hide it. Don't worry, we won't rely on you to post clips of your non-existent engineering.

Sorry, someone remind me why I'm feeding this teenage troll again? Enough.



Re: No milk will ever be our milk.
by amgamg on 2011-03-25 12:09:12

4th grade = 9 years old.

My guess...FB3...graduate of a 2 year non-accredited recording studio rip off school. Lives in his rich parents basement and holds no job. He owes big time for his rich parents having bought him his Axe/FX  His mom makes him cut the grass and take out the trash, as well as walk the dogs and watch over his younger siblings when  his parents entertain. Plays in a band that gigs once or twice every other month. Has to help move the billiards table out of the way as they piss off the regulars who only wanted to drink beer and play darts. They draw a crowd of eight or nine old High School chums on a good night. I could be wrong. 



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by rivertownmusic on 2011-03-25 13:45:04

@



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by toneman2121 on 2011-03-25 15:23:22

Throw enough sonig energy at a stop sign and it would be blown away.  But violence is not the answer to the truth of a matter.  If a Stop sign is in an area where it ought not to be, I would not use force, I would be civilized and take it to the governor of my region.  But the erection of a stop sign in an area where traffic need not be impeded by stopping - is unwarranted - as you have pretty much attempted here.    And there is no reason for you to yell at the crickets.  If you dont want to hear them, then close your window.  You dont force other beings into being coerced by your own preferences.  And btw - others do not mind their sound, as just witnessed above.  Similar to how a few others do not mind my honest inquiry here - because they granted the fact that this is not North Korea's cage.  I am sharing my perception of how I see the facts and anyone is free to make a civilized challenge in a civilized manner, and not with all these rude and inconsiderate replies to my honest perception of what I percieve to be the hard facts - whether you like that or not.  If you are not interested in inquiring about the truth as others are doing who I am  also trying to help out, and if you are interested in blocking off this thread, then feel free to do so.  But falsehoods to survive - must be kept in the dark, and the truth is closed off as you would like to see this thread closed.  Sorry but thats not how inquirers into the truth operate

WHAT'S WRONG WITH THIS GUY? or better yet what's right with him?



Re: No milk will ever be our milk.
by John_BlisterTip on 2011-03-25 16:18:24

TheRealZap wrote:

FarBeyond3 wrote:

toneman2121 wrote:


at least the crickets are animate and often do quiet when a loud noise is heard. how do the stop signs react to you?

Throw enough sonig energy at a stop sign and it would be blown away.  But violence is not the answer to the truth of a matter.  If a Stop sign is in an area where it ought not to be, I would not use force, I would be civilized and take it to the governor of my region.   But the erection of a stop sign in an area where traffic need not be impeded by stopping - is unwarranted - as you have pretty much attempted here.    And there is no reason for you to yell at the crickets.  If you dont want to hear them, then close your window.  You dont force other beings into being coerced by your own preferences.  

And btw - others do not mind their sound, as just witnessed above.  Similar to how a few others do not mind my honest inquiry here - because they granted the fact that this is not North Korea's cage.  I am sharing my perception of how I see the facts and anyone is free to make a civilized challenge in a civilized manner, and not with all these rude and inconsiderate replies to my honest perception of what I percieve to be the hard facts - whether you like that or not.   If you are not interested in inquiring about the truth as others are doing who I am  also trying to help out, and if you are interested in blocking off this thread, then feel free to do so.  But falsehoods to survive - must be kept in the dark, and the truth is closed off as you would like to see this thread closed.  Sorry but thats not how inquirers into the truth operate.

Mr. Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic  things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent  response were you even close to anything that could be considered a  rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having  listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your  soul.

Oh man that is just sooo me. I actually posted the same response(from Billy Madison) on this very forum, perhaps, 6 years ago. Now that is some funny stuff.

Kudos to the other writer as well. When my juices are flowing just right, I marvel at my Bachelors level writing skills. Many times I would read my post over and over just to get a glimpse of my own magnificence. I've been know to write an awesome 3rd grade reading level tirade as well. But seriously, I actually loved the post -even if I didn't read the previous posts to see exactly what he was referring to. Although it appears the work of someone pretending on many levels.



Re: No milk will ever be our milk.
by Dime13 on 2011-03-26 01:34:48

Mr_Arkadin wrote:

Sorry, but there was a point in your posts? Must have missed it surrounded by all that the flowery language.

Call any major studio.


I can see you like to talk down to people and try to make it look intellectual and scientific to give you the higher ground when in reality you're on very shaky foundations.

Please demonstrate what about it is shaky?  Where is your support for your claims?  Prove it.  Otherwise your claims remain empty and void of any meaning.



Re: Use By Date Expired
by Dime13 on 2011-03-26 01:38:48

Mr_Arkadin wrote:


You're such a professional but there are no clips of your amazing engineering.

As if any engineering skill, or lack of, has any bearing on the quality comparision of two machines.   LOL.

Most good engineers would stand behind their output, not try and hide it. Don't worry, we won't rely on you to post clips of your non-existent engineering.

Where did I ever claim i was an amazing engineer, let alone an enigneer to begin with? LOL.   Nice try.  Dont insert words in my mouth you damn troll.

And anyways, its irrelevant, and I will not answer the question as to whether I am an engineer or not.

And besides,  does that have to do with the engineering into the quality og the machinery???  Please do lay off the crack.

 

Sorry, someone remind me why I'm feeding this teenage troll again? Enough.

Look who's talking.  You are one sick person in the head. Go get a special doctor man.



Re: No milk will ever be our milk.
by Dime13 on 2011-03-26 01:43:20

amgamg wrote:

4th grade = 9 years old.

My guess...FB3...graduate of a 2 year non-accredited recording studio rip off school. Lives in his rich parents basement and holds no job. He owes big time for his rich parents having bought him his Axe/FX  His mom makes him cut the grass and take out the trash, as well as walk the dogs and watch over his younger siblings when  his parents entertain. Plays in a band that gigs once or twice every other month. Has to help move the billiards table out of the way as they **** off the regulars who only wanted to drink beer and play darts. They draw a crowd of eight or nine old High School chums on a good night. I could be wrong. 

This is another example of nothing but circumventive "ad-hominem" attacks among your many other fallacies in reasoning - bearning no weight on the actual argument.    But again - meanigless gibberish on your behalf - all desinged to try to distract the reader from the fact that the Axe FX is a niche pro market specialty item and the line 6 item is for mass markets and hobbyist musician - and teenagers.  Insults will not help you prove any points here, they are actually hurting you and i need not drop to your level of vermin and imbecilehood.



Re: No milk will ever be our milk.
by Mr_Arkadin on 2011-03-26 04:27:13

FarBeyond3 wrote:


This is another example of nothing but circumventive "ad-hominem" attacks among your many other fallacies in reasoning - bearning no weight on the actual argument.    But again - meanigless gibberish on your behalf - all desinged to try to distract the reader from the fact that the Axe FX is a niche pro market specialty item and the line 6 item is for mass markets and hobbyist musician - and teenagers.  Insults will not help you prove any points here, they are actually hurting you and i need not drop to your level of vermin and imbecilehood.

Pot kettle black. You are the one who called people 4th graders. This post is full of insluts. Vermin? Imbecilehood? You're also a snob ('niche pro market' indeed). You're the one disguising your non-point in gibberish language with flowery language. Is this how you speak to your mates down the pub?

And yes you are on shaky foundations because tone IS SUBJECTIVE. If you haven't learned that you haven't learned anything and if I phone a pro studio and they talk like you I'd put the receiver down very quickly.

And no pro-producer would tell any guitarist how to get his tone. But I think we all realise you are very far from pro so that doesn't matter.



Re: Use By Date Expired
by Mr_Arkadin on 2011-03-26 04:29:55

FarBeyond3 wrote:

Mr_Arkadin wrote:


You're such a professional but there are no clips of your amazing engineering.

As if any engineering skill, or lack of, has any bearing on the quality comparision of two machines.   LOL.


Wait, I thought this comparison was all about science. If you're no engineer (I think we could have guessed that) then you're saying that tone can be judged by... laymen? Which means they're going to subjective.



Re: No milk will ever be our milk.
by amgamg on 2011-03-26 04:49:53

Oh my...I do believe I hit a nerve....dentist.bmp



Re: No milk will ever be our milk.
by rivertownmusic on 2011-03-26 11:52:16

Right! Now listen up FB3!

Now I was going to stay out of this (debate?) after stating an earlier opinion on this matter, but I find that your recent comments regarding Line 6 equipment being just for hobbiests and teenagers to be quite ill informed, immature and frankly ridiculous! It seems that what started as an opinion has in many ways descended into utter drivel on your part and to be honest the vitriolic comments passed back to you from others are in my 'opinion' entirely justified.

I've been a professional musician (not a hobbiest) for 28 years and have used like most of us in this room a huge variety of cheap, expensive, good and bad gear, working venues across Europe and recording studio's alike. I wouldn't consider myself an 'authority' as there is still much to learn and my success is somewhat unremarkable rising a little above average, but my experience like most in this room is extensive. Being older often draws all the gags in but being older also carries a degree of experience and maturity, something you appear to lack. I don't work on assumptions as a rule, but you appear at times to be very juvenile.

I have(professionally) used Line 6 equipment for 14 years, having used an AX212 for most of that time. I'm currently by informed choice now using a Vetta II. Why not the Axe FX? Because I prefer Line 6. No! There's nothing wrong with my ears or judgement FB! The science of Line 6 is enough for my ears however good the Fractal stuff is. Who knows though, I may at some point in the future change my mind although your opinions, attitude and credibility certainly do nothing to influence my opinion to consider such a change.

Recording studios and sound engineers?

Some sound engineers Use 'Fractal' stuff, alot in my experience don't and purely for reasons of 'hands on' creativity so Im told. You may not share this opinion but as I ve said its my exprience that informs me. Nearly all the studio's I ve recorded in these past years have some kind of Line 6 rack along with a variety of other brands. Try telling your typical hardworking professional sound engineer with his POD Pro that he earns his crust as some form of 'hobby' because of the gear he uses and you might expect to get a swift kick to your 'upper mid range'! Try telling the myriad of Marshall Pro's that it's really just a hobby. Mass market dosn't mean unprofessional and thats not an opinion, its a fact. There is also a valid though 'subjective' argument that whilst the use of really advanced gear is good, not using it can to at least some degree encourage a more creative approach. I welcome old and new technology whatever the price.

Now! Let me be clear. I hate talking down to people but your 'attitude' towards others simply leaves me no choice.

You are without doubt antagonistic.

You appear to lack any form of flexibility in your opinions along with zero empathy towards the opinion of others, which therefore leaves me and probably the rest of us into believing that you are an extemely narrow minded individual.

I would suggest that you take your derailed opinions to some teenage chat room where im sure you'll fit in just fine.

However, do feel free to return when your level of understanding towards others and there experience matures.

Its ok to imply that your self expression has been compromised on this forum, but when you ride rough shod over the opinions of others with singular 'one way heavy traffic' (don't get me started on 'stop signs') there's little wonder that others would form such negative opinions of your views. Its a shame that all this circumventing of emotion had to be expressed as I quite liked your 'material'.

I hate suggesting that this thread should be closed down, it goes against my priciples of free speach and self expression, but this 'debate' and I use that term loosely, has crashed and Im uncertain as to weather it can carry on without driving us all down the road to 'Crazyville'.

To all at Line 6. Please accept my sincere apologies if this post constitutes as offensive literature, but this guys been pushing for this. Maybe he likes it! I don't.



Re: No milk will ever be our milk.
by toneman2121 on 2011-03-26 17:28:56

fb3, when you read rivertownmusic's post, take note. this is how you string words together to present ideas and opinions. well thought out, rational and coherent. not that i agree or disagree with it. it's his opinion and i can take it anyway i want. but at least i can understand the point he's making. decide for myself if i agree or disagree and reply if i want.

however, there's not much i could say, or even attempt, in the way of expressing my opinion that rivertownmusic has said so eloquently.



Re: No milk will ever be our milk.
by Dime13 on 2011-03-26 20:32:49

Mr_Arkadin wrote:


Pot kettle black. You are the one who called people 4th graders. This post is full of insluts. Vermin? Imbecilehood?

.

And now you are misrepreseniting that it was a defense against others doing it first. but nice try.

You're also a snob ('niche pro market' indeed). You're the one disguising your non-point in gibberish language with flowery language. Is this how you speak to your mates down the pub?

Nothings flowery about it, its using reasoning.  Ever heard of it? look it up some time. I dont have time for the pub.


And yes you are on shaky foundations because tone IS SUBJECTIVE.


I NEVER  said tone was not subjective.   I said quality was not subjective.   Learn how to speak english.  And then learn some basic audio because you lack that too.   Tone and quality of a signal are two seperate things.  You have no idea what youre even talking about.

 if I phone a pro studio and they talk like you I'd put the receiver down very quickly.

A common reacttion among those who can't take the truth.


And no pro-producer would tell any guitarist how to get his tone.  But I think we all realise you are very far from pro so that doesn't matter.

You have no evidence of any alck of my provessionalism and hence another  unsupported claim.  And then you will hide behind your own flowery  language to avoid your responsibility to address that unsupported  claim.  But again you have no evidence I am not pro.  But dont worry I  am.

Once again another claim on your behalf demonstrating that you are the one who is far from professional and you are an amateur at best in this matter.  Tone was not the subject... you lack the subtle engineering knowledge to be able to discern the difference between one tweaking a tone on whatever unit - versus the quality of the actual signal  - regardless of any characteristics about the tone.  Evidence right there that you simply are light years away from being pro level and have no clue about what garbage you are evcen trying to argue here,  LOLOLOLOL!!!!!  And at this rate it is unlikely that you will ever get to pro status.



Re: Use By Date Expired
by Dime13 on 2011-03-26 20:53:40

Mr_Arkadin wrote:


Wait, I thought this comparison was all about science. If you're no engineer (I think we could have guessed that) then you're saying that tone can be judged by... laymen? Which means they're going to subjective.

, i think we can safey bet that it is you who lacks anything remotely close to engineering know how because you simply dont get it - that yes Tone can be discerned by non-engineers - what a tone sounds like in the sense described here has nothing to do with quality.  You can pull up the same basic tone on the same two amps and cabs in the Axe and In the Line 6 and one will have a higher signal quality OF THAT EXACT SAME TONE! LOL.  So quality has to to with both the sound quality and how much tweakability the modeler has - but more importantl;y - the fidelity and quality of the signal and how much depth it has.

In the Axe its the superior natural processing algorithms which replicates patterns that occur in real life.  (Fractal Audio was a named Derived from this idea).   And nother example is that the effects like the chorus and flangers use special variable delay algorithms that are more natural and smooth that any pedal (analog or digital) could ever achieve and the amp simulations use unique, dynamic, non-linearity generators that produce smooth, even-ordered harmonics giving a depth to the sound that other processors lack. Read these facts, and read them again.  But from what you have spewed here, it is unlikely you will understand these engineering facts.  So stop insulting me and I will stop insulting you.  Otherwise you are asking for it.

And no (dont worry i went to school for audio, and have Avid pro tools certification officially certified as Pro Tool HD Operator in Music and Post, and I worked in an  audio engineering technical job at my institutes project rooms to provide service for the rooms and technicall assistance.   But nice try.

And yes tone is subjective, but the quality of that same tone on two diferent machines will be different - especially on an Axe - plus more ways to tweak that tone bigtime.

But nice try again.



Re: No milk will ever be our milk.
by Dime13 on 2011-03-26 21:12:29

rivertownmusic wrote:

Right! Now listen up FB3!

Now I was going to stay out of this (debate?) after stating an earlier opinion on this matter, but I find that your recent comments regarding Line 6 equipment being just for hobbiests and teenagers to be quite ill informed, immature and frankly ridiculous! It seems that what started as an opinion has in many ways descended into utter drivel on your part and to be honest the vitriolic comments passed back to you from others are in my 'opinion' entirely justified.


Before L6 was indeed the authority on pro Modeling.  This is no longer true.  This is why i said its been delegated to that status, even from the opinions of pro studios. Many aengineers/studio session musicans are slowly making the switch, (others more instantly) I can promise you this much.  Straight up.  You can hold me to it.


I've been a professional musician (not a hobbiest) for 28 years and have used like most of us in this room a huge variety of cheap, expensive, good and bad gear, working venues across Europe and recording studio's alike. I wouldn't consider myself an 'authority' as there is still much to learn and my success is somewhat unremarkable rising a little above average, but my experience like most in this room is extensive. Being older often draws all the gags in but being older also carries a degree of experience and maturity, something you appear to lack. I don't work on assumptions as a rule, but you appear at times to be very juvenile.

I have(professionally) used Line 6 equipment for 14 years, having used an AX212 for most of that time. I'm currently by informed choice now using a Vetta II. Why not the Axe FX? Because I prefer Line 6. No! There's nothing wrong with my ears or judgement FB! The science of Line 6 is enough for my ears however good the Fractal stuff is. Who knows though, I may at some point in the future change my mind although your opinions, attitude and credibility certainly do nothing to influence my opinion to consider such a change.

Lets just make this impersonal and throw out all personal comments.  I am giving you honest information i know that yes - you are right - these studios relied on these as the best solution to modeling in the past.  But they are now replacing their PODs with Axe FX units.  This is why i said the main market for Line 6 now is teenagers. And the main guitar stores also told me this too to corroborate my claim and belief.

If you found me rude, I apologize, but I guarantee you if you compared the two you would not look back. (watch the Amp Geek and Advanced sections though, bad settings could result in unwanted flab - all this has to be fune tuned correctly) - unless you are fine with using the stock amps without getting into modifications.

Recording studios and sound engineers?

Some sound engineers Use 'Fractal' stuff, alot in my experience don't and purely for reasons of 'hands on' creativity so Im told. You may not share this opinion but as I ve said its my exprience that informs me. Nearly all the studio's I ve recorded in these past years have some kind of Line 6 rack along with a variety of other brands. Try telling your typical hardworking professional sound engineer with his POD Pro that he earns his crust as some form of 'hobby' because of the gear he uses and you might expect to get a swift kick to your 'upper mid range'! Try telling the myriad of Marshall Pro's that it's really just a hobby. Mass market dosn't mean unprofessional and thats not an opinion, its a fact. There is also a valid though 'subjective' argument that whilst the use of really advanced gear is good, not using it can to at least some degree encourage a more creative approach. I welcome old and new technology whatever the price.


I would not tell that professional that his use of the Pod is unprofessional.  Many professionals use Pods.  But its mostly for pre-production.  Some pros also Pods live.  I use Pods.   I was just saying that the Pod is no longer the industry standard in modeling anymore.  The Axe FX is.  Its like Eventide is for DSP Effects.


Now! Let me be clear. I hate talking down to people but your 'attitude' towards others simply leaves me no choice.

You are without doubt antagonistic.

You appear to lack any form of flexibility in your opinions along with zero empathy towards the opinion of others, which therefore leaves me and probably the rest of us into believing that you are an extemely narrow minded individual.


I respect the opinions of others. I feel mine was not respected and people tried to make a mockery of it.  But my opinion matches the fact that the Factal Box has replaced the Pod as Industry standard.  If a person believes its not, I am not going to be inconsiderate to their opionion, but I would kindly aslk them to provide support for their claims.  And as a result I have been called the troll whcn you can see the pattern that I wass not but that a few others were.


I would suggest that you take your derailed opinions to some teenage chat room where im sure you'll fit in just fine.

However, do feel free to return when your level of understanding towards others and there experience matures.

Its ok to imply that your self expression has been compromised on this forum, but when you ride rough shod over the opinions of others with singular 'one way heavy traffic' (don't get me started on 'stop signs') there's little wonder that others would form such negative opinions of your views. Its a shame that all this circumventing of emotion had to be expressed as I quite liked your 'material'.


I only dissmissed other challengers when they were rude.  Look at the pattern.  They were very irritated by the fact that my opinion happens to match the new industry standard fact. Look at the original title of this thread please - it provokes Axe FX users who also own and use pods to reply with what they believe to be the truth and what they believe to be the falsehood.  I habe done this honest and civilized, and then I retaliated for my own integrity because i did not deserve those attacks which were personal and unwarranted.   I only expressed my opinion, and my opinion matched the "industry standard" fact.  I am not being antagonistic.  I say this civilized as I originally did.  ANyone who believes otherwise will need high grade evidence to attempt any refutation of my position.



Re: Use By Date Expired
by toneman2121 on 2011-03-27 00:14:17

FarBeyond3 wrote:

amgamg wrote:

Poor craftsman blames his tools...but you can win if it means that much to ya.

I am not out to win anything.

This discussion is not about the craftsman.

And speaking of that, sorry but 'Craftsman' brand tools are not a brand that the Crafts-'men' at Nasa would use.

[EDIT - i meant "mastercraft tools" which are cheap are not used at Nasa, i think craftsman might be the good quality ones].

i think you miss the point of the analogy. what this means is that if you make something, be it music in the case of a musician or a desk in the case of a woodworker or an engine in the case of a mechanic, and your project is not satisfactory in some way, blaming the tools with which you have to work only reveals the extent of your craftsmanship. it does not refer to actual mechanics tools i.e. CRAFTSMAN BRAND tools, which are, by the way in my opinion excellent for the money.

furthermore, i think we, the forum members, have a communication breakdown when the exchange of thoughts and opinions are misunderstood by poor choice of words leading to failure to undrerstand those thoughts and opinions; simply because of those poor choice of words. 

perhaps this is true regarding your informed opinion (and i say informed because there are times when reading your posts, you really do seem to have knowledge and experience in the recording field)  with people who are misinterpreting the way you are expressing yourself, myself included. to which i believe comes off as a little strong with respect to other peoples posts, albeit sincere. and i believe you don't realize it

so let's stop all of this bickering and get back to the work at hand. 

to each his own



Re: Use By Date Expired
by amgamg on 2011-03-27 05:42:05

One coherent post from FB3 and to top it off he now wants proof of whatever it was he was dribbling on about. Of course his words are the only proof the rest of us need. Go back...go all the way back. This guy has been nothing but antagonistic...elitist...snobbish and dismissive of any idea opinion or thought that did not bow to him. I could care less what or who he thinks he is. FB3 never..not at any time gave anyone except his own thoughts any credence. All he ever wanted was a one way conversation with his beliefs as the gold standard and we all were suppose to be in great awe and amazement of his opinions. That's not a conversation and anyone who doubts my comment..go back and read. Honestly...there's not much worth reading. Truthfully...I question my own participation in his stupidity cause this really isn't what I came here for. I've stooped to low...this guy is way below my paygrade.



Re: No milk will ever be our milk.
by nuser101 on 2011-03-27 06:02:19

FB3 said:

You are right, Tone is subjective, quality is not....

(followed by)

Anyone who believes otherwise will need high grade evidence to attempt any refutation of my position.

1) You have provided NO evidence that you are a qualified judge of tone or quality.

2) You have provided nothing but opinion, with NO evidence, for your position, despite being asked for said evidence.

You hold others to a higher standard than you demand of yourself. The types of responses you get reflect that.



Re: Use By Date Expired
by Mr_Arkadin on 2011-03-27 06:40:44

FarBeyond3 wrote:

Where did I ever claim i was an amazing engineer, let alone an enigneer to begin with? LOL.   Nice try.  Dont insert words in my mouth you damn troll.

And anyways, its irrelevant, and I will not answer the question as to whether I am an engineer or not.


FarBeyond3 wrote:

And no (dont worry i went to school for audio, and have Avid pro tools
certification officially certified as Pro Tool HD Operator in Music and
Post, and I worked in an  audio engineering technical job at my
institutes project rooms to provide service for the rooms and technicall
assistance.   

At least try and be consistent in your lies.

FarBeyond3 wrote:

So Stop insulting me and I will stop insulting you. Otherwise you are asking for it.

I'm not worried, my dad's bigger than your dad.



Re: No milk will ever be our milk.
by Mr_Arkadin on 2011-03-27 06:49:29

FarBeyond3 wrote:

I only dissmissed other challengers when they were rude.  Look at the pattern.  They were very irritated by the fact that my opinion happens to match the new industry standard fact. Look at the original title of this thread please - it provokes Axe FX users who also own and use pods to reply with what they believe to be the truth and what they believe to be the falsehood.  I habe done this honest and civilized, and then I retaliated for my own integrity because i did not deserve those attacks which were personal and unwarranted.   I only expressed my opinion, and my opinion matched the "industry standard" fact.  I am not being antagonistic.  I say this civilized as I originally did.  ANyone who believes otherwise will need high grade evidence to attempt any refutation of my position.

Again laughable. You've been to all the studios on the planet and done a survey? No. Yet we have to provide evidence to the contrary but you have to provide no evidence for your argument. Everything you say is fact, everything everyone else says requires some hard evidence. Even in your so-called apology you are arrogant and do not appear to even perceive it. Good luck with that.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by parman on 2011-03-27 09:33:53

OK,I think I have only replied a couple times to any of these because its all opinion and what sounds good to you, but I cant sit here anymore and listen without giving my opinion and yes it is only a opinion. I am in my 50s and so this whole Metal sound I could care less cause Ill never play it but thats just me. All this bashing on Line 6 X3 Live is nonsense in my opinion. I have been playing guitar since I was 13, I now have expensive Custom Shop Strats with Dimarzio Area 61,58 and I think a 67 in the middle.I have Marshall and Fender tube amps that with all my stomp boxes sounds great,but here is the Heart of my response to all this back and forth which one is better. Tone first comes from your fingers (David Gilmour sounds great on anything he touches) Jimi Hendrix (same thing, it can be raining on his equipment at a outdoor concert and in my opinion he sounds great,Eric Clapton = samething. #2= Guitar and PUPS.So here we go, I also play in a Worship Band, I play Lead guitar alot. When I first heard Lincoln Brewster I fell in love with his TONE, So I bought the pups he uses, I already have bitchen Strats, I feel to me anyway I have good fingers so the only thing missing was his X3 Live. So I got 2, went to his website, downloaded his patches, got a Tech 21 Power Engine or Direct to the house w/Aviom monitor w/E5 buds, put a few pedals in front of the X3 like my TU-2 tuner, OD-3 Overdrive, RC-2 looper for practice and use patches 18B for my overall classic rock tone, 16C for the spacey stuff, 17C for the delay stuff and it sounds just like his and I wouldnt change it for anything, I have my sound I love now so why would I change to something different because someone says this is better. There is no better if you love your sound,it will be what people remember when they here you year after year.This is just my Opinion (But if my 2 X3lives ever go down I will get the HD500, by then I hope they upgrade the Amp Models and include the Marshall Variac Plexi,because that is my sound and I dont want to change even if something is Better LOL) enough said.Thanks



Re: No milk will ever be our milk.
by rivertownmusic on 2011-03-27 10:43:14

I must start by saying that I thought long and hard before writing my last post. 'Emotionally' speaking I actually held back a lot of what I wanted to say, which on reflection would've been (A) unfair and (B) got me kicked off this forum. Although some of my 'comments' were regrettably a little on the strong side, it has on the 'up' side illicited a coherent and understandable response from yourself.

I accept your apology and in doing so offer mine, although a little humility towards the rest of the 'room' on your part may help to build a few bridges and help turn this battle of insults back into the debate it should have been in the first place. I don't mean apologize for your opinions, just the manner in which you expressed them.

Sometimes we believe in something so 'passionately' that we can often appear to casually dismiss the opinions of others, which in turn alienates and turns them against us. I don't mind saying that I for one have in times gone by fallen foul of this and have learned greatly from it. Although you may not agree with our opinions it is imperative that you respect and reflect that respect in your counter arguments.

Offering the proverbial 'olive branch' to others in the 'room' irrespective of who insulted who and who said what first, would be a good move at this point. In the short amount of time I've been writing at this forum, I've found a great many people who have offered opinion and advice that I value immensely. Of course there's nothing wrong with a little sharp wit or the odd dig here and there in adding 'flavor' to a debate, but once you take the high ground with apparently immovable and rigid opinions then it will inevitably end in animosity

So! that's me done on all this, lets debate! I ll reply to your  'Fractal' stuff when I've carefully studied your previous post.

Kind Regards  



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by rivertownmusic on 2011-03-27 11:06:28

Fingers! Now there's something you don't here often these days. Thank whatever god you dig that fingers can't be 'modelled'. It's the start of the 'tone' tree isn't it? Respectfully, I sometimes think 'sound engineers' imagine tone as the machine 'it' passes through, not where it starts. Cheers for that breath of fresh air 'Parman', it's being getting a little stuffy in here of late.



Re: No milk will ever be our milk.
by rivertownmusic on 2011-03-27 12:50:34

I actually tried an Axe FX Pro Ultra last year and I found it to be in part truly impressive. If we consider the different genre's of music as 'worlds', then currently the Axe FX seems to have taken the 'metal' world by storm. Reading a number of respected musician publications ie 'Guitarist' UK seems to reflect this view. Meshuggah's Fredrik Thordendal and Taking Dawn's Chris Rabbit are just a few examples of how the Axe FX have transformed their 'worlds'. So on that score you are absolutley correct.

However, there are many other 'worlds' constituting a great many different styles and 'sub genre's' that are as yet undiscovered country to the Axe FX. Will Rye Cooder, Dave Gilmore, Angus Young, Jeff Beck and Dave Grohl to name but a few be using AxeFX? Check out there current rigs, they don't. I could give a much longer list but you can check that yourself. It's not been around long enough to conclusively prove it's apparent superiority. Though time will tell I guess.

Personally speaking, it's worth adding at this point that when I tried the Axe FX there was little else that 'absolutely' convinced me that it was 'better' when it came to Blues, Jazz, Country, straight ahead Rock and there various cross-over styles. Being a guitar tutor I look for many different models in a digital amp due to the variety of styles I teach. I found the Axe FX superb at some things (metal mainly) but not so good at others, though I might add not bad. I also found it overly complex and believe me I'm no dummy. I can see it would be a dream for most sound engineers, but the sound engineer is an employee of the musician and most though not all musicians want a great tone that's 'simple' to manipulate.

A typical guitarist for instance isn't going to want his or her magnum opus to be 'Fractalized' in the studio if they're unable to take it out on the road and operate it's complex alogrithms to achieve or indeed improve there 'tone'. A generalisation I admit but a valid one.

With all due respect to yourself, many guitarists don't really care for complex technologies or what sound engineers really think (we just pretend to LOL). Maybe they should. It may be a failing I don't know. All I absolutely know is that the science behind 'Fractal Audio' hasn't changed my 'world', or the world' of many others much as I wanted it to. I do understand there's a big buzz around it and it 'may' become the overall industry standard in time, but one genre (metal) albeit a significant one can't claim to have revolutionized the recording industry just yet. It will be very interesting to see what Line 6 comes up with in the coming years to re check the balance. .



Re: Use By Date Expired
by toneman2121 on 2011-03-27 16:21:24

amgamg wrote:

One coherent post from FB3 and to top it off he now wants proof of whatever it was he was dribbling on about. Of course his words are the only proof the rest of us need. Go back...go all the way back. This guy has been nothing but antagonistic...elitist...snobbish and dismissive of any idea opinion or thought that did not bow to him. I could care less what or who he thinks he is. FB3 never..not at any time gave anyone except his own thoughts any credence. All he ever wanted was a one way conversation with his beliefs as the gold standard and we all were suppose to be in great awe and amazement of his opinions. That's not a conversation and anyone who doubts my comment..go back and read. Honestly...there's not much worth reading. Truthfully...I question my own participation in his stupidity cause this really isn't what I came here for. I've stooped to low...this guy is way below my paygrade.

i just looked uo fb3's first few posts...umm, perhaps you're right.



Re: Use By Date Expired
by amgamg on 2011-03-27 17:13:34

No matter...I wasnt trying to come down on you for wanting to be peaceful....but if  it quacks like a quack...I know you get it. As a matter of interest....go look up his post in anything Fractal related. Just do yourself a favor and please wear a seat belt before you start reading.  Scarey ride to say the least.



Re: No milk will ever be our milk.
by Dime13 on 2011-03-27 17:32:41

nuser101 wrote:


1) You have provided NO evidence that you are a qualified judge of tone or quality.


Then what oh mighty one - does it take in terms of requirements for a person with a set for ears to be able to judge the difference in quality between two sounds?

Actually, I have,  I have a set of ears - therefore I am a qualified judge of  sound quality.  Tone is a different matter - which is subjective.  TThis discussion assumes the same amp and cab brought up on both units and judging more or less the same tone.

The point is not level of knowledge, but even if you take any person with no experience in music or even audio - and you let them hear both and ask them which sounds better, they will tell you which one sounds better.  They do not need any audio experience to be that judge.  Everyone on planet earth, either qualified in audio or music, or not qualified in audio or musc can hear for themselves.

nuser101 wrote:


2) You have provided nothing but opinion, with NO evidence, for your position, despite being asked for said evidence.

You hold others to a higher standard than you demand of yourself. The types of responses you get reflect that.

I dont play the game of providing online evidence.  If you want that grade of evidence, search the world wide web.



Re: Use By Date Expired
by Dime13 on 2011-03-27 17:37:54

Mr_Arkadin wrote:

FarBeyond3 wrote:

Where did I ever claim i was an amazing engineer, let alone an enigneer to begin with? LOL.   Nice try.  Dont insert words in my mouth you damn troll.

And anyways, its irrelevant, and I will not answer the question as to whether I am an engineer or not.


FarBeyond3 wrote:

And no (dont worry i went to school for audio, and have Avid pro tools
certification officially certified as Pro Tool HD Operator in Music and
Post, and I worked in an  audio engineering technical job at my
institutes project rooms to provide service for the rooms and technicall
assistance.   

At least try and be consistent in your lies.


What lies.  Where did I ever give myself the label of "engineer"?   Taking those courses and acting in those positions is not evidence of me claiming I am official "engineer".  Even if I worked in a job that referred to things as engineering.  First of all , I worked as a technician, so those jobs and courses should never have anything to do with engineering in such labels.  So you are the liar.   And Engineering skill or lack ofm is irrelevant to whether any non- musician or non audio person can tell which unit sounds better.

Mr_Arkadin wrote:


I'm not worried, my dad's bigger than your dad.

Im not worried either, your brain is very small, never mind what portion of it has ever been used, if such a capacity to activate neural pathways is even there to begin with.



Re: No milk will ever be our milk.
by Dime13 on 2011-03-27 17:47:54

Mr_Arkadin wrote:

Again laughable. You've been to all the studios on the planet and done a survey? No. Yet we have to provide evidence to the contrary but you have to provide no evidence for your argument. Everything you say is fact, everything everyone else says requires some hard evidence. Even in your so-called apology you are arrogant and do not appear to even perceive it. Good luck with that.

I never asked anyone here for evidence.  I have already verified it as objective for myself first hand in several controlled environments.  If you are interested in the facts, feel free to look them up.

Its too bad you miss the crux of the discussion entirely. Here is an example with a clip.  The following person owns both Fractal Audio Products and Line 6 products and did a shootout between HD and Axe FX Ultra.   He is not exactly an expert in achiving tight tone or cleaning up his distortions with either unit, but he is able to at least provide a comparision with the same amp and same cab on each unit.   So you basically are in error about comparing tones.   This thread is not asking for a comparision of tones or patches, its asking for a comparision of the sound fidelity and realism of the two units.  TAs you will hear, the Axe FX sounds more defined and actually sounds like it is being recorded in a isolation recording room in a studio.  The Line 6 Does not, it sounds ok but a little bit artifical still.  So basically even if I can get whey better toens then thisa guy, its not needed.

So regardless if you or anyone thinks these tones and patches suck, or are great, thats not the point - the point is comparing the diomensionality, fidelity and just plain realism of both.   Here is the result.   If you think this is real evidence....  and to any other honest inquirers who have been more polite with me, be careful when comparing online clips, only take them with a grain of salt - for REAL evidence, please try the units out in person.  Thats what I did after hearing this to corroborate that the Axe kills.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmcHJq5hqHA



Re: No milk will ever be our milk.
by Dime13 on 2011-03-27 18:07:16

rivertownmusic wrote:

I actually tried an Axe FX Pro Ultra last year and I found it to be in part truly impressive. If we consider the different genre's of music as 'worlds', then currently the Axe FX seems to have taken the 'metal' world by storm. Reading a number of respected musician publications ie 'Guitarist' UK seems to reflect this view. Meshuggah's Fredrik Thordendal and Taking Dawn's Chris Rabbit are just a few examples of how the Axe FX have transformed their 'worlds'. So on that score you are absolutley correct.

However, there are many other 'worlds' constituting a great many different styles and 'sub genre's' that are as yet undiscovered country to the Axe FX. Will Rye Cooder, Dave Gilmore, Angus Young, Jeff Beck and Dave Grohl to name but a few be using AxeFX? Check out there current rigs, they don't. I could give a much longer list but you can check that yourself. It's not been around long enough to conclusively prove it's apparent superiority. Though time will tell I guess.

Personally speaking, it's worth adding at this point that when I tried the Axe FX there was little else that 'absolutely' convinced me that it was 'better' when it came to Blues, Jazz, Country, straight ahead Rock and there various cross-over styles. Being a guitar tutor I look for many different models in a digital amp due to the variety of styles I teach. I found the Axe FX superb at some things (metal mainly) but not so good at others, though I might add not bad. I also found it overly complex and believe me I'm no dummy. I can see it would be a dream for most sound engineers, but the sound engineer is an employee of the musician and most though not all musicians want a great tone that's 'simple' to manipulate.

A typical guitarist for instance isn't going to want his or her magnum opus to be 'Fractalized' in the studio if they're unable to take it out on the road and operate it's complex alogrithms to achieve or indeed improve there 'tone'. A generalisation I admit but a valid one.

With all due respect to yourself, many guitarists don't really care for complex technologies or what sound engineers really think (we just pretend to LOL). Maybe they should. It may be a failing I don't know. All I absolutely know is that the science behind 'Fractal Audio' hasn't changed my 'world', or the world' of many others much as I wanted it to. I do understand there's a big buzz around it and it 'may' become the overall industry standard in time, but one genre (metal) albeit a significant one can't claim to have revolutionized the recording industry just yet. It will be very interesting to see what Line 6 comes up with in the coming years to re check the balance. .

Cleans:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ubu8A_wmmNI&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=km2m-5n7SPA&feature=related

Bluesto Rock:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKj_CKhlR0Y&feature=related

Hi-Gain:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAFdmrmmOYM&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BL1dmdLS9H0&feature=related

ExtremeMusic:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvKTojs_gaw&feature=related

PitchTracking:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YGzYzjg4mU&feature=related

ForPitch shifter its no Eventide but comes close.



Re: No milk will ever be our milk.
by nuser101 on 2011-03-27 18:58:00

arBeyond3 wrote:

Mr_Arkadin wrote:

Again laughable. You've been to all the studios on the planet and done a survey? No. Yet we have to provide evidence to the contrary but you have to provide no evidence for your argument. Everything you say is fact, everything everyone else says requires some hard evidence. Even in your so-called apology you are arrogant and do not appear to even perceive it. Good luck with that.

I never asked anyone here for evidence.  I have already verified it as objective for myself first hand in several controlled environments.  If you are interested in the facts, feel free to look them up

That's a flat out lie.

FarBeyond3 wrote:

ANyone who believes otherwise will need high grade evidence to attempt any refutation of my position.

After writing that to Arkadin, you wrote this drivel, after condemning the other members of this forum for ad hominem attacks.

FarBeyond3 wrote:

Then what oh mighty one - does it take in terms of requirements for a
person with a set for ears to be able to judge the difference in
quality between two sounds?

Actually,
I have,  I have a set of ears - therefore I am a qualified judge of 
sound quality.  Tone is a different matter - which is subjective.  TThis
discussion assumes the same amp and cab brought up on both units and
judging more or less the same tone

The
point is not level of knowledge, but even if you take any person with
no experience in music or even audio - and you let them hear both and
ask them which sounds better, they will tell you which one sounds
better.  They do not need any audio experience to be that judge.

So, you admit tone is subjective - that's encouraging, but then you go on to say "ask them which sounds better". That will depend on their ears and the way they hear music - that's not objective by any stretch. To say that it is would require identical aural cavities, timpanic membranes, and neuronal circuits for all of human kind. There are several users on this forum that gave up on the Axe to use the HD series of PODs, so their ears, which are equally as qualified as yours, came to a different conclusion than you have. There's nothing in that comparison that makes them right and you wrong. However, there's nothing in it that makes you right and them wrong, either.

You're the type of person that would get on stage with a Nashville sessions player and turn your nose up at their gear. Meanwhile, they would play you off the stage. That's not an insult - they would play nearly all of us off the stage, but some of us would try to learn from them while getting our asses kicked. You'd blame it on gear.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by fester2000 on 2011-03-27 19:00:46

Man, am I the only one hungry for a sandwich?  Maybe a nice MLT (Mutton, Lettuce and Tomato), where the mutton is nice and lean and the tomato is nice and ripe.  They're so perky, I love it!

Cheers,

Fester2k



Re: No milk will ever be our milk.
by rivertownmusic on 2011-03-27 19:22:23

Feel free to just jump on in there dishing out the answers I want to write. Lol!  It's all in the ears at the end of the day. Well put man!



Re: No milk will ever be our milk.
by Mr_Arkadin on 2011-03-27 19:55:03

Thanks for pointing out FB3's incosistencies in argument. "Show me evidence" ... "I never said show me evidence".

"I worked in an audio engineering job" ...  "I never claimed to be an engineer".

Funny stuff.

Ooh, look FB3 said neural pathways, he must be an intellectual.



Re: No milk will ever be our milk.
by Mr_Arkadin on 2011-03-27 19:57:19

FarBeyond3 wrote:

for REAL evidence, please try the units out in person. 

That's almost the most sensible thing you've said... except you had to ruin it by using the word 'evidence'. If you used the word 'preference' it might actually be possible to have a discussion with you.



Re: No milk will ever be our milk.
by amgamg on 2011-03-28 03:32:35

Than the evidence posted IMO...referring to the HD/Axe shoot out clearly demo's the HD as being a more than worthy competition at a mind boggling price cut.

The clips btw do nothing to prove what the Axe/FX does for FB3..since they arent his clips. This "Cliffs Notes" lazy mans way of providing evidence through posting promotional clips or others work wasnt what I was looking for.  FB3 claimed what "He" could do....how all this would benefit us cause of his experience No big deal.....not like I was holding my breath or anything.



Re: No milk will ever be our milk.
by amgamg on 2011-03-28 03:39:11

Here's an example of FB3 style evidence.....lets say.....I can write very good songs after years of learning to write songs. So heres my proof of really good song writing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9TGj2jrJk8

style="font-size: 12pt;">See what I mean?



Re: No milk will ever be our milk.
by Dime13 on 2011-03-28 17:20:03

Mr_Arkadin wrote:

Thanks for pointing out FB3's incosistencies in argument. "Show me evidence" ... "I never said show me evidence".

"I worked in an audio engineering job" ...  "I never claimed to be an engineer".

Funny stuff.

Ooh, look FB3 said neural pathways, he must be an intellectual.

Just because they referred to me as the engineer and just because the assistant position referred to the word, that did not technically make it "engineering".   How is that inconsistent?  Nice try to merely detract from the facts once again.

Congratulations on your brilliance.   Please continue!



Re: No milk will ever be our milk.
by Dime13 on 2011-03-28 17:24:31

Mr_Arkadin wrote:


That's almost the most sensible thing you've said... except you had to ruin it by using the word 'evidence'. If you used the word 'preference' it might actually be possible to have a discussion with you.

Mr_Arkadin believes a person can suddenly use wishful thinking to make a lower fidelity device with far less tweakability sound as good as a higher fidelity one.   To him, he can be advised to go back to his bean.   He knows not what to listen for with regards to the different sonic content of audio signals.  Either that or he should stop monitoring his mixes in his local public bathroom, if mixes is what he wants to refer to them as.

Its suckers like this that have to troll forums with the title such as this Fractal Audio Vs. Line 6 one which i replied to with an honest assessment based on experience with high end gear versus low end gear.  They probabily do it because they a repissed of that they will never be able to afford the real deal.



Re: No milk will ever be our milk.
by Dime13 on 2011-03-28 17:26:32

amgamg wrote:

Here's an example of FB3 style evidence.....lets say.....I can write very good songs after years of learning to write songs. So heres my proof of really good song writing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9TGj2jrJk8

style="font-size: 12pt;">See what I mean?

Nope, I doubt anyone can.   The only evidence presented here is evidence of what was used in the recording if the subject were comparing certain pieces of equipment usied in recording studios.   Therefore you will have to explain what you mean since you are making no sense.



Re: No milk will ever be our milk.
by TheRealZap on 2011-03-28 17:29:43

let me ask you the most obvious un-asked question....

what the f$%^&k are you here for?

because if it's just to flaunt your supposed superiority in some way... i'd say you are obviously getting a great big "NO SALE"

so why don't you scurry off and do whatever you do for fun....

because noone here is having fun talking to you.

we get it... we all heard and acknowledge your opinion...

some may even agree to a nugget here and there...

but most just think you are enjoying the attention.



Re: No milk will ever be our milk.
by Dime13 on 2011-03-28 17:30:40

amgamg wrote:

Than the evidence posted IMO...referring to the HD/Axe shoot out clearly demo's the HD as being a more than worthy competition at a mind boggling price cut.

The clips btw do nothing to prove what the Axe/FX does for FB3..since they arent his clips. This "Cliffs Notes" lazy mans way of providing evidence through posting promotional clips or others work wasnt what I was looking for.  FB3 claimed what "He" could do....how all this would benefit us cause of his experience No big deal.....not like I was holding my breath or anything.

I'll be giving you nothing - despite what converter is sitting to the left of me.   I would only owe my own clips if I posted my own L6 clips which i did not do.

And the only point you make is that all of this is not even high grade evidence to begin with, regardless if I post or if someone elses posts are used.  Because its not the same as verifying it first hand.  So its not even evidence.  But I was forced to post clips.  Now I am bieng told they have to be mine which is certainly not a requirement for my claims to be verifiable - first hand verification is required - but its too bad you are unable to order one to try it.  Sorry, can't help you.  Go sell all your amps.  Trust me, its worth it.



Re: No milk will ever be our milk.
by Dime13 on 2011-03-28 17:37:18

nuser101 wrote:


So, you admit tone is subjective - that's encouraging, but then you go on to say "ask them which sounds better". That will depend on their ears and the way they hear music - that's not objective by any stretch. To say that it is would require identical aural cavities, timpanic membranes, and neuronal circuits for all of human kind. There are several users on this forum that gave up on the Axe to use the HD series of PODs, so their ears, which are equally as qualified as yours, came to a different conclusion than you have. There's nothing in that comparison that makes them right and you wrong. However, there's nothing in it that makes you right and them wrong, either.

Not exactly. me admitting tone is subjective is like admitting that it is a subjective preference which amp to pick on any particular modeler.  But which modeler is able to produce those same tones at a higher sound quality  and depth of realism is  a whole other matter - definetly not a subjective one.

Whoever sold their Axe FX units for Pods likely did not know what they were doing with the Fractal Box. There is some learning curve but it helps to have a technical background in audio or even live sound.   (I dont want to use the word engineer because this other clown alladin is gonna try another round of trolling over word meanings that have nothing to do with he facts).


You're the type of person that would get on stage with a Nashville sessions player and turn your nose up at their gear. Meanwhile, they would play you off the stage. That's not an insult - they would play nearly all of us off the stage, but some of us would try to learn from them while getting our asses kicked. You'd blame it on gear.

As if Nashville has the best musicians ever.   I am sure the great composers  are spinning in their graves at such harmonies they could never come up with themselves.  Hail the musical paradise of Nashville!



Re: No milk will ever be our milk.
by silverhead on 2011-03-28 17:52:59

Oooh, man .... FB3 ... are you still here? I haven't checked this thread for a few days, but as usual you provide some excellent entertainment.

FarBeyond3 wrote:

Whoever sold their Axe FX units for Pods likely did not know what they were doing with the Fractal Box. There is some learning curve but it helps to have a technical background in audio or even live sound.  .

That 's just the latest example of the sort of  idiotic, uncompromising, presumptuous, and ridiculous comment that makes people think you are a caricature of ........ I don't know, but something very unlikeable.

But I'll tune in again in a few days to catch up on the entertainment.

Seriously, what do we have to do to make you disappear? (Line 6 won't likely kick you off the forum, as Fractal did.)



Re: No milk will ever be our milk.
by Mr_Arkadin on 2011-03-28 18:36:41

FarBeyond3 wrote:

Just because they referred to me as the engineer and just because the assistant position referred to the word, that did not technically make it "engineering".


So basically you took an engineering job where your title was engineer and you're not an engineer. There's a word for that. A bullsh1tter.

And yeah, Karl is such a douche for selling his Axe. He knows bollock-all about tone, that guy. (rolleyes emotican required here).

Could I afford an Axe? Yes, if I thought it was necessary. I have a reasonable paying job in the UK television industry as a UK television professional who works on many professional programmes. I am freelance. If I was crap at my job no-one would keep employing me. My work is admittedly vision-oriented but I have to pay attention to the sound too. I've worked on concerts for Stevie Wonder, Gorillaz, Paul McCartney, Foo Fighters. If I fuck up there's no recording of the show. No DVD sell-though. Lots of angry producers and sueing going on. People trust my technical experience. I normally wouldn't say all this, but I'm tired of your superior attitude and thought it relevant to outline my professional media background.

My home listening system is a pair of PMC speakers powered from a Bryston amp. PMC speakers were designed by ex-BBC engineers in case you've never heard of them.



Re: No milk will ever be our milk.
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2011-03-28 18:40:15

FarBeyond3 wrote:

Mr_Arkadin wrote:

Again laughable. You've been to all the studios on the planet and done a survey? No. Yet we have to provide evidence to the contrary but you have to provide no evidence for your argument. Everything you say is fact, everything everyone else says requires some hard evidence.

I never asked anyone here for evidence.

FarBeyond3 wrote:

ANyone who believes otherwise will need high grade evidence to attempt any refutation of my position.

President Bill Clinton said:

I did NOT have sex with THAT woman...

President Bill Clinton said:

Indeed I did have an improper relationship with that woman...

I predict this thread will be locked in 3...2...1...

Anyone want a sandwich?



Re: No milk will ever be our milk.
by Mr_Arkadin on 2011-03-28 18:47:16

Nice one Karl.

I think the youth of today would say... pwned!

Please lock away...



Re: No milk will ever be our milk.
by amgamg on 2011-03-28 18:59:11

UK TV ya say??????? Can ya introduce me to Rachael Riley if I cross the pond??????



Re: No milk will ever be our milk.
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2011-03-28 19:03:21

I'm proud to be a douche, by the way.

One thing about this whole argument that FB3 doesn't quite understand is:  Your tone is your tone.

I have killer tones going on with my HD500 right now.  Such awesome feel, great sounds, etc.  When I told another musician in the band that I'd switched from what I was using to the HD500, their response was, "Sounds really, really good.  But it sounds like you.  I didn't notice you'd changed."

My bass player in my other band, who has seen and heard me go through more gear than I'd care to admit, always says that I evenutally make every amp or processor sound really great, but it always sounds like my tone.

The point here being, you have tones in your head that you will gravitate to.  No matter what gear you're using, you'll tweak it until it sounds like the sound in your head.

Here's hoping the sound in your head is a great one.



Re: No milk will ever be our milk.
by Crusty_Old_Rocker on 2011-03-28 19:17:11

FarBeyond3 wrote:

Cleans:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ubu8A_wmmNI&feature=related


Cananyone else hear the "quack" at the beginning of each strum.  Echhhh!  I'm not liking that at all.

It's not like a Strat quack, it's almost like there's an autowah in there somewhere.  That one clip of "evidence" proves quite conclusively to me that the AxeFX sounds terrible.

Thanks FarBeyond3 for that, the first 60 seconds of that clip has turned me right off any thought of wasting money on a piece of gear that sounds so horrible.

Cheers,

Crusty



Re: No milk will ever be our milk.
by Mr_Arkadin on 2011-03-29 01:37:26

amgamg wrote:

UK TV ya say??????? Can ya introduce me to Rachael Riley if I cross the pond??????

Do you mean Rachel Riley from Countdown? I was more of a Vorders man myself . Unfortunately that's done in Yorkshire (I'm London-based), but I did work with Countdown's director on another gameshow for a few years so I'll see what I can do.



Re: No milk will ever be our milk.
by amgamg on 2011-03-29 03:03:19
Do you mean Rachel Riley from Countdown?


Oh yeah...she's the one!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuOsB4psC9E



Re: No milk will ever be our milk.
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2011-03-29 03:39:45

Crusty_Old_Rocker wrote:

Cananyone else hear the "quack" at the beginning of each strum.  Echhhh!  I'm not liking that at all.

It's not like a Strat quack, it's almost like there's an autowah in there somewhere.  That one clip of "evidence" proves quite conclusively to me that the AxeFX sounds terrible.

Thanks FarBeyond3 for that, the first 60 seconds of that clip has turned me right off any thought of wasting money on a piece of gear that sounds so horrible.

Cheers,

Crusty

Those are Fremen's patches, and him playing, I believe.  I'm pretty sure that's just a bad compressor setting.  The Axe is capable of a lot better cleans than that.  Go have a listen to the rest of the series of videos.  He has some very nice stuff in there.

Those vids wouldn't be what would turn me off.  People ranting like FB3 do it for me without a single recording.  Hey, maybe he's a Line6Shill, but covertly.  Yeah, that's it.  He was contracted by Line6 to come in here and spew about the Axe to the point where we're sick about it and wouldn't want to own one.



Re: No milk will ever be our milk.
by amgamg on 2011-03-29 05:51:06
I'll be giving you nothing - despite what converter is sitting to the left of me. I would only owe my own clips if I posted my own L6 clips which i did not do. 

So stop throwing down the gauntlet already.....sheesh ...even a train stops sometime!

but its too bad you are unable to order one to try it. 

Not to worry if I wanted one I'd have it at the drop of a hat..unless  its on backorder.

Go sell all your amps.  Trust me, its worth it.


I don't have to sell amps to buy...trust you...honestly..nothing you've said or done has convinced me to buy an Axe/FX.

Just for the heck of it I thought since your so proud of this machine and so full of vigor over it you'd gladly put up something of your own to entice us and mesmerize us. Have us running for our credit cards and calling Cliff at break neck speeds to buy this object. Instead you just rattle on. Thought you might wanna make it real.



Re: No milk will ever be our milk.
by nuser101 on 2011-03-29 06:57:13

FarBeyond3 wrote:

nuser101 wrote:


So, you admit tone is subjective - that's encouraging, but then you go on to say "ask them which sounds better". That will depend on their ears and the way they hear music - that's not objective by any stretch. To say that it is would require identical aural cavities, timpanic membranes, and neuronal circuits for all of human kind. There are several users on this forum that gave up on the Axe to use the HD series of PODs, so their ears, which are equally as qualified as yours, came to a different conclusion than you have. There's nothing in that comparison that makes them right and you wrong. However, there's nothing in it that makes you right and them wrong, either.

Not exactly. me admitting tone is subjective is like admitting that it is a subjective preference which amp to pick on any particular modeler.  But which modeler is able to produce those same tones at a higher sound quality  and depth of realism is  a whole other matter - definetly not a subjective one.

Whoever sold their Axe FX units for Pods likely did not know what they were doing with the Fractal Box. There is some learning curve but it helps to have a technical background in audio or even live sound.   (I dont want to use the word engineer because this other clown alladin is gonna try another round of trolling over word meanings that have nothing to do with he facts).


You're the type of person that would get on stage with a Nashville sessions player and turn your nose up at their gear. Meanwhile, they would play you off the stage. That's not an insult - they would play nearly all of us off the stage, but some of us would try to learn from them while getting our asses kicked. You'd blame it on gear.

As if Nashville has the best musicians ever.   I am sure the great composers  are spinning in their graves at such harmonies they could never come up with themselves.  Hail the musical paradise of Nashville!

Why did you not respond to the fact that you lied about evidence? Couldn't spin fast enough, or just lazy?

Anyway, let's get on to your next steps in the advancement of logic.

1) I don't know why others don't like an AXE-FX, so they're likely using it wrong. Yep, that's the only way to deal with data - make up a hypothesis completely unsupported by evidence.

2) Who claimed "Nashville has the best musicians ever?" No one. I said that Nashville sessions players (who, btw, make their living recording a lot of music you have heard, and back new artists for exposure to recording labels) play better than most of us. As for me, I doubt that Brahms, Bach, Beethoven and Mozart are spinning in their graves about Nashvillle sessions players or anyone else, for that matter. I'm equally certain that they wouldn't trade the aural experiences of their lifetimes for the marvelous opportunity of hearing their work recorded on guitars with an AXE-FX, which, apparently, would be a great improvement over those crappy Amatis and Strads that they had to listen to.

I look forward to your next recording - you must be a killer musician.



Re: No milk will ever be our milk.
by wardick on 2011-03-29 06:59:21

Epiphone made me sell my Gibson.  



Re: No milk will ever be our milk.
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2011-03-29 07:51:53

nuser101 wrote:

FarBeyond3 wrote:

nuser101 wrote:

You're the type of person that would get on stage with a Nashville sessions player and turn your nose up at their gear. Meanwhile, they would play you off the stage. That's not an insult - they would play nearly all of us off the stage, but some of us would try to learn from them while getting our asses kicked. You'd blame it on gear.

As if Nashville has the best musicians ever.

I have had the pleasure of playing with one of these Nashville types who happened to be the Statler Brother's guitarist on their TV show, back in the day.  He came in with an old, beat up Deluxe, a beat up Tele, and a beat up Tube Screamer.  And his tone and playing beat me up all over the stage.  He is a fantastic player with fantastic technique and tone.  Never heard of the Axe-Fx.  Doesn't care.  Try telling him his ears aren't as good as yours and that his gear is no good, FB3.  He'd just smile, chuckle, and proceed to hand your your @$$ with his playing and tone.

I learned a lot from him.  Keep it simple.  You actually can keep it relatively simple with just the Axe-Fx, but it's still relative.  I even endeavor to keep it simple with the HD500, which is much easier to do, comparitively.  Also, to keep focusing on learning your craft.  You spend all this time worrying about tone, you spend less time learning.  I know what his rig cost him.  It's all second or third hand stuff.  And it totals under $1000, from pick to amp.

So please, FB3, bless us with your greater than Nashville level of playing and tone and produce for us a clip of your Axe-Fx magic.  It's time to put your money where your fingers are.



Re: No milk will ever be our milk.
by Dime13 on 2011-03-29 20:36:06

Mr_Arkadin wrote:


So basically you took an engineering job where your title was engineer and you're not an engineer. There's a word for that. A bullsh1tter.


No! Because I dont refer to myself as an engineer according to the real definition of engineer.  But according to your definition i guess I would be an engineer.  But engineering is not your definition of engineer nor any one else's erroneous definition of engineer in the music recording industry -  because engineering involves the process of creating engines - nothing remotely close to which a recording technician does at all.  Therefore a Train operator is also erroneously called an "engineer", and so are all "recording and mastering engineers".  They are simply NOT engineers according to the real definition for the same reason I am not an engineer.  But I know all the same stuff they do (except for everything they know about mastering)... but i dont even need to know what i currently know to make a judgment based on the sense of hearing and it  therefore need not even be brought up. .



Re: No milk will ever be our milk.
by Dime13 on 2011-03-29 20:51:15

nuser101 wrote:

Why did you not respond to the fact that you lied about evidence? Couldn't spin fast enough, or just lazy?

I dont see how I was inconsistent and you fail to point anything indicating such out.

You don't know the scientific method.  Online clips are not considered high grade evidence. And are not important here as they are not treated as evidence by a person who knows logic.  Never mind not even by normal people. But if you wish to continue to make final judgments on online clips, feel free.  But you will not get far that way. Nobody will - unless they verify their authenticity in person.


1) I don't know why others don't like an AXE-FX, so they're likely using it wrong. Yep, that's the only way to deal with data - make up a hypothesis completely unsupported by evi


Its too bad to claim to have some expertise knowledge about logic and failt to note that the logical concept of "Occam's Razor" applies to this - , it is a principle that generally recommends selecting the simplest competing  hypothesis when both hypotheses are said to equally explain some phenomena or lack of.  Because in this case my hypothesis is likely to be true considering that the unit is industry standard.


2) Who claimed "Nashville has the best musicians ever?" No one. I said that Nashville sessions players (who, btw, make their living recording a lot of music you have heard, and back new artists for exposure to recording labels) play better than most of us. As for me, I doubt that Brahms, Bach, Beethoven and Mozart are spinning in their graves about Nashvillle sessions players or anyone else, for that matter. I'm equally certain that they wouldn't trade the aural experiences of their lifetimes for the marvelous opportunity of hearing their work recorded on guitars with an AXE-FX, which, apparently, would be a great improvement over those crappy Amatis and Strads that they had to listen to.

Those are violins, not guitar.  Your comparision is therefore invalid.  But if you really want to know, yes they would probabily enjoy them more through an Axe FX or a real electric guitar and amp because violins are more irritating on the ear and more unpleasant and shrill (for the high notes at least). Its a no brainer, no matter who you are or what your background.

 

I look forward to your next recording - you must be a killer musician.

My recordings or musical ability is irrelevant because I could have made the same argument valid even if I do not own an Axe FX and base my opinion on hearing it in person if someone else owned it and showed me  and even played it for me without me touching it - not even having to own it. And hence the nail in the coffin on the subject of whether I am required to post any clips of my own as such an answer would be clear by now. I dont even have to be a guitar player for the sound quality and realistic sound point to have been made.



Re: No milk will ever be our milk.
by Crusty_Old_Rocker on 2011-03-29 21:02:27

FarBeyond3 wrote:


... I could have made the same argument valid even if I do not own an Axe FX and base my opinion on hearing it in person if someone else owned it and showed me  and even played it for me without me touching it - not even having to own it.

Sorry, I arrived late to this party.

Are you saying that you don't own an AxeFX and don't play the guitar with some high degree of proficiency?

Cheers,

Crusty



Re: No milk will ever be our milk.
by toneman2121 on 2011-03-29 21:24:00

farbeyond3, would you mind repeating that? please put it in simpler terms so i can understand it.



Re: No milk will ever be our milk.
by mput on 2011-03-30 03:30:57

"because engineering involves the process of creating engines"     

FB3  you cant be serious about this statement  LOL  I know ALOT of engineers that dont do anything with engines....   something about that just sounds odd.... almost sounds like something a child would say...hmmm



Re: No milk will ever be our milk.
by nuser101 on 2011-03-30 04:21:40

FarBeyond3 wrote:

nuser101 wrote:

Why did you not respond to the fact that you lied about evidence? Couldn't spin fast enough, or just lazy?

I dont see how I was inconsistent and you fail to point anything indicating such out.

You don't know the scientific method.  Online clips are not considered high grade evidence. And are not important here as they are not treated as evidence by a person who knows logic.  Never mind not even by normal people. But if you wish to continue to make final judgments on online clips, feel free.  But you will not get far that way. Nobody will - unless they verify their authenticity in person.


1) I don't know why others don't like an AXE-FX, so they're likely using it wrong. Yep, that's the only way to deal with data - make up a hypothesis completely unsupported by evi


Its too bad to claim to have some expertise knowledge about logic and failt to note that the logical concept of "Occam's Razor" applies to this - , it is a principle that generally recommends selecting the simplest competing  hypothesis when both hypotheses are said to equally explain some phenomena or lack of.  Because in this case my hypothesis is likely to be true considering that the unit is industry standard.


2) Who claimed "Nashville has the best musicians ever?" No one. I said that Nashville sessions players (who, btw, make their living recording a lot of music you have heard, and back new artists for exposure to recording labels) play better than most of us. As for me, I doubt that Brahms, Bach, Beethoven and Mozart are spinning in their graves about Nashvillle sessions players or anyone else, for that matter. I'm equally certain that they wouldn't trade the aural experiences of their lifetimes for the marvelous opportunity of hearing their work recorded on guitars with an AXE-FX, which, apparently, would be a great improvement over those crappy Amatis and Strads that they had to listen to.

Those are violins, not guitar.  Your comparision is therefore invalid.  But if you really want to know, yes they would probabily enjoy them more through an Axe FX or a real electric guitar and amp because violins are more irritating on the ear and more unpleasant and shrill (for the high notes at least). Its a no brainer, no matter who you are or what your background.

I look forward to your next recording - you must be a killer musician.

My recordings or musical ability is irrelevant because I could have made the same argument valid even if I do not own an Axe FX and base my opinion on hearing it in person if someone else owned it and showed me  and even played it for me without me touching it - not even having to own it. And hence the nail in the coffin on the subject of whether I am required to post any clips of my own as such an answer would be clear by now. I dont even have to be a guitar player for the sound quality and realistic sound point to have been made.

1) I see, the answer is that you lied, you just don't feel you were inconsistent in your lie. Saying you didn't come here expecting evidence, then saying high grade evidence is needed by others to support their position constitutes lying, although it is a type of lying consistent with your other methodologies of fabrication.

2) The scientific method demands a hypothesis tested by data - you have plenty of the former, and none of the latter.

3) Occam's razor demands the simplest explanation consistent with data. You make a wild extrapolation, with no supporting data, to say that people who leave the AXE-FX leave it because they don't know how to use it, despite the fact that many of them have been creating tones with other modellers, of different varieties, for years. Your explanation is certainly not the simplest, which is that they prefer the HD-500.

4) You're the one who began the comparison of guitarists to the great composers, not me. I just finished the lunacy of the comparison for you, with obvious sarcastic hyperbole.

5) You're last point is correct. Your recordings are irrelevant, because they don't exist.

I am the author of eighteen US patents in the agricultural and chemical industries. You can look them up, along with my educational and professional history (PhD, Massachusetts Institute of Technology) at www.chemvantage.net. This year, my company is introducing two new herbicides for the rice market.  What have you used the scientific method to accomplish, other than argument?



Re: No milk will ever be our milk.
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2011-03-30 05:16:37

FarBeyond3 wrote:


But engineering is not your definition of engineer nor any one else's erroneous definition of engineer in the music recording industry -  because engineering involves the process of creating engines - nothing remotely close to which a recording technician does at all.  Therefore a Train operator is also erroneously called an "engineer", and so are all "recording and mastering engineers".  They are simply NOT engineers according to the real definition for the same reason I am not an engineer.  But I know all the same stuff they do (except for everything they know about mastering)... but i dont even need to know what i currently know to make a judgment based on the sense of hearing and it  therefore need not even be brought up. .

I spit my orange juice all over my screen when I read this.

The American Engineers' Council for Professional Development (ECPD, the predecessor of ABET) has defined "engineering" as:

[T]he creative application of scientific principles to design or develop structures, machines, apparatus, or manufacturing processes, or works utilizing them singly or in combination; or to construct or operate the same with full cognizance of their design; or to forecast their behavior under specific operating conditions; all as respects an intended function, economics of operation and safety to life and property.

The "or works utilizing them" portion of that statement is what recording and audio engineers do on a daily basis.  So, pretty please FB3, show us your "works utilizing them" so we can have proof of the Axe-Fx's superiority.

Dude, are you like 15 or something?  Because that's how you come across here.  I'm not trying to say this in a belittling way, just trying to understand at what level of development your brain is at.

This also made me laugh rather loudly:

FarBeyond3 wrote:

nuser101 wrote:

Why did you not respond to the fact that you lied about evidence? Couldn't spin fast enough, or just lazy?

You  don't know the scientific method.

nuser101 wrote:

I
am the author of eighteen US patents in the agricultural and chemical
industries. You can look them up, along with my educational and
professional history (PhD, Massachusetts Institute of Technology) at
www.chemvantage.net. This year, my company is introducing two new
herbicides for the rice market.  What have you used the scientific
method to accomplish, other than argument?

My scientific background isn't even close to what nuser can claim.  I'm published several times in some chemical literature (JACS, etc.) from my days as a chemistry graduate student and as an undergraduate.  But I'd still say my scientific method is sound even if that's not my chosen profession today.  Hey, I'm also an "engineer" of sorts.  A software development engineer.  Oh, wait, I'm an architect too.  A software solutions architect.  But according to your scientific method, an architect would be only a guy that designs buildings.



Re: No milk will ever be our milk.
by Mr_Arkadin on 2011-03-30 06:02:12

LOL, now I just know you're another member trying to have a bit of fun "an engineer makes engines". Funny as fuck. Keep it up, this is genuinely genius stuff.



Re: No milk will ever be our milk.
by nuser101 on 2011-03-30 07:44:59

I'm beginning to think this is Blistertip pulling our chains. If so, way to go John - it was a blast, and, yep, ya' got me!



Re: No milk will ever be our milk.
by rivertownmusic on 2011-03-30 09:32:48

FB3 wrote:

FarBeyond3 wrote:

nuser101 wrote:

Why did you not respond to the fact that you lied about evidence? Couldn't spin fast enough, or just lazy?

I dont see how I was inconsistent and you fail to point anything indicating such out.

You don't know the scientific method.  Online clips are not considered high grade evidence. And are not important here as they are not treated as evidence by a person who knows logic.  Never mind not even by normal people. But if you wish to continue to make final judgments on online clips, feel free.  But you will not get far that way. Nobody will - unless they verify their authenticity in person.


1) I don't know why others don't like an AXE-FX, so they're likely using it wrong. Yep, that's the only way to deal with data - make up a hypothesis completely unsupported by evi


Its too bad to claim to have some expertise knowledge about logic and failt to note that the logical concept of "Occam's Razor" applies to this - , it is a principle that generally recommends selecting the simplest competing  hypothesis when both hypotheses are said to equally explain some phenomena or lack of.  Because in this case my hypothesis is likely to be true considering that the unit is industry standard.


2) Who claimed "Nashville has the best musicians ever?" No one. I said that Nashville sessions players (who, btw, make their living recording a lot of music you have heard, and back new artists for exposure to recording labels) play better than most of us. As for me, I doubt that Brahms, Bach, Beethoven and Mozart are spinning in their graves about Nashvillle sessions players or anyone else, for that matter. I'm equally certain that they wouldn't trade the aural experiences of their lifetimes for the marvelous opportunity of hearing their work recorded on guitars with an AXE-FX, which, apparently, would be a great improvement over those crappy Amatis and Strads that they had to listen to.

Those are violins, not guitar.  Your comparision is therefore invalid.  But if you really want to know, yes they would probabily enjoy them more through an Axe FX or a real electric guitar and amp because violins are more irritating on the ear and more unpleasant and shrill (for the high notes at least). Its a no brainer, no matter who you are or what your background.

I look forward to your next recording - you must be a killer musician.

My recordings or musical ability is irrelevant because I could have made the same argument valid even if I do not own an Axe FX and base my opinion on hearing it in person if someone else owned it and showed me  and even played it for me without me touching it - not even having to own it. And hence the nail in the coffin on the subject of whether I am required to post any clips of my own as such an answer would be clear by now. I dont even have to be a guitar player for the sound quality and realistic sound point to have been made.

Whatever judgement or point your trying to make has been clouded by a 'singular','narrow' and self opinionated belief that pure scientific analysis (??) has a greater importance than a musicians ability to hear.Your overall opinion across this thread has now through your own merits become a shambolic series of 'upper 6th adolescent' rebukes towards real MUSICIANS with REAL experience. Im starting to truly believe that your treating us as if we were all idiots.

My recent posts to you were a plea if you like, to at least partly accept that your views may be in some ways flawed or misplaced. What genuine credentials as a musician do you really have? A job as some kind of sound engineers assistant is something of a start but Im afraid it gives you no foundation to challenge (in the way you're doing) the experience of the people who speak in this room. Like it or not there's a pecking order in the world of debate. Those who know least should LISTEN! You don't listen FB. You think you do but you REALLY REALLY REALLY DON'T!!

You seem to sound like one of those 'Hi Fi' 'experts' who endlessly and patronisingly bangs on about sound realism whilst thumbing through you're monthly science periodical. You don't agree? But that's how you re coming across. I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt that you do actually play something but what exactly? I'm furiously scratching my head to find some semblance of sense in what you've written above..... No!... I can't.... In fact your arguments now appear amongst other things to be a series of overly intellectualised oxymorons designed to mess up our time. You're so tightly wrapped up in 'Cliffs' mantra that it's blinded any serious objectivity you once may have had.

Although Im a guitar tutor, I would kill for a lesson from those nashville guys. They epitomise everything that is great with regards to being a musician, whatever style you're into. Respectfully, pay them a visit and learn. It will take you a lifetime but at least it will be more productive than the juvenile scribblings you seem to proffer on this forum.

I suspect you'll be thrown off this site soon so do the decent thing....leave and stop insulting our collective intelligence.



Re: No milk will ever be our milk.
by Dime13 on 2011-03-30 20:49:42

nuser101 wrote:

1) I see, the answer is that you lied, you just don't feel you were inconsistent in your lie. Saying you didn't come here expecting evidence, then saying high grade evidence is needed by others to support their position constitutes lying, although it is a type of lying consistent with your other methodologies of fabrication.


You would like to think - and it would be true if I were shown to have asked for evidence - which we all know is not the case.  So please re-phrase your statement to say that I came in here making a claim to an opinion, and believing that such an opinion is in line with the truth.   And that I said online clips are not considered evidence.   But you have now twisted this to say Ive asked for high grade evidence to disprove it.  But you know very well that I just claimed that posting online clips is not high grade evidence.  So we can now see how with this attempt at misstating another person, you have shown your pure and typical vermin.  Such misrepresentation and smoke and mirrors foul play is now exposed for all to see what it is.

Typical.

2) The scientific method demands a hypothesis tested by data - you have plenty of the former, and none of the latter.


People don't come on here to write scientific journals of data.  You can contact any member of the AES if you wish to have their assessment and review.


3) Occam's razor demands the simplest explanation consistent with data. You make a wild extrapolation, with no supporting data, to say that people who leave the AXE-FX leave it because they don't know how to use it, despite the fact that many of them have been creating tones with other modellers, of different varieties, for years. Your explanation is certainly not the simplest, which is that they prefer the HD-500.


Saying the industry standard modeler is the best is a wild explanation?  Ok! Sure!  Good luck with that!   But FYI - its simple enough and can be verified by anyone - so occams razor stands.

 

5) You're last point is correct. Your recordings are irrelevant, because they don't exist.

You are nothing but a hypocrite - demanding all this data and support for my claims in real technical format and then you go and make an unsupported claim.  LOL.


I am the author of eighteen US patents in the agricultural and chemical industries. You can look them up, along with my educational and professional history (PhD, Massachusetts Institute of Technology) at www.chemvantage.net. This year, my company is introducing two new herbicides for the rice market.

And I'm George Bush.



Re: No milk will ever be our milk.
by Dime13 on 2011-03-30 20:56:45

Karl_Houseknecht wrote:


I spit my orange juice all over my screen when I read this.

The American Engineers' Council for Professional Development (ECPD, the predecessor of ABET) has defined "engineering" as:

[T]he creative application of scientific principles to design or develop structures, machines, apparatus, or manufacturing processes, or works utilizing them singly or in combination; or to construct or operate the same with full cognizance of their design; or to forecast their behavior under specific operating conditions; all as respects an intended function, economics of operation and safety to life and property.

The "or works utilizing them" portion of that statement is what recording and audio engineers do on a daily basis.

I see nothing in this indicating Artistic works are included.  The recording arts hardly has anything to with engineering except for the engineers that engineered the equipment.  The difference is that in engineering you use math to engineer.   But music recording and mastering technicians is what they are - technicians - NOT engineers.  Its a total disgrace and absolute abomination to REAL engineers for the classification of people who work into recording studios to be placed under the same title of "engineer".  You can wish all you want to the contrary - but they are not really engineers.

So, pretty please FB3, show us your "works utilizing them" so we can have proof of the Axe-Fx's superiority.

Why?  Its irrelevant as I have shown.  Whether I play guitar or not, whether I own one or not, and whether I am an "engineer" or not is irrelevant.  If you want clips, go look them up.  if you want to test the unit again, then buy it again and A/B it.  I already have.  I am not required to write a jpurnal on it nor post videos or audio clips.  Anyone can feel free to verify and come to their own conclusions - which would be obvious.



Re: No milk will ever be our milk.
by Dime13 on 2011-03-30 21:06:25

Mr_Arkadin wrote:

LOL, now I jusy know you're another member trying to have a bit of fun "an engineer makes engines". Funny as ****.

Now you are just trying to pull at strings in realizing your futile efforts at previously trying to connect dots to no avail.

You know exactly what I meant (or not) that its not just "engines" but another example is that obviously the engineer is the person who engineered the schematic for the SSL console in the recording studio that the recording/mixing technician uses.  But the latter is not the engineer for the reason stated in my last sentence.

Or I guess you did not connect those dots either.  Common lack in your thought process.



Re: No milk will ever be our milk.
by Dime13 on 2011-03-30 21:23:15

rivertownmusic wrote:


Whatever judgement or point your trying to make has been clouded by a 'singular','narrow' and self opinionated belief that pure scientific analysis (??) has a greater importance than a musicians ability to hear.Your overall opinion across this thread has now through your own merits become a shambolic series of 'upper 6th adolescent' rebukes towards real MUSICIANS with REAL experience. Im starting to truly believe that your treating us as if we were all idiots.

My recent posts to you were a plea if you like, to at least partly accept that your views may be in some ways flawed or misplaced. What genuine credentials as a musician do you really have? A job as some kind of sound engineers assistant is something of a start but Im afraid it gives you no foundation to challenge (in the way you're doing) the experience of the people who speak in this room. Like it or not there's a pecking order in the world of debate. Those who know least should LISTEN! You don't listen FB. You think you do but you REALLY REALLY REALLY DON'T!!

You seem to sound like one of those 'Hi Fi' 'experts' who endlessly and patronisingly bangs on about sound realism whilst thumbing through you're monthly science periodical. You don't agree? But that's how you re coming across. I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt that you do actually play something but what exactly? I'm furiously scratching my head to find some semblance of sense in what you've written above..... No!... I can't.... In fact your arguments now appear amongst other things to be a series of overly intellectualised oxymorons designed to mess up our time. You're so tightly wrapped up in 'Cliffs' mantra that it's blinded any serious objectivity you once may have had.

Although Im a guitar tutor, I would kill for a lesson from those nashville guys. They epitomise everything that is great with regards to being a musician, whatever style you're into. Respectfully, pay them a visit and learn. It will take you a lifetime but at least it will be more productive than the juvenile scribblings you seem to proffer on this forum.

I suspect you'll be thrown off this site soon so do the decent thing....leave and stop insulting our collective intelligence.

A long novel needed to deny the obvious light years difference.  I am not insulting anything.  I am cleaning up garbage spewed - the notion these two companies are in the same league.   DUDE - I WOULD NOT BE DOING THIS IF I DID NOT COMPARE BOTH EXTENSIVELY!  JEEEZZZZZ... LOL.

Buddy Ive had every single modeler, from the Boss GT-Pro, Rocktron Prophesy, Voodo Valve, Zoom Stuff, I've had the Korg Modeler, Ive owned the Tech 21 garbage, I have owned all the software simulators from Amplitube 1-3, Guitar Rig 1-5, Nomad Rock amp legends, Softube amp sime, Waves GTR, Overloud TH1, Digidesign eleven, I owned the Digitech boards and rack modelers, and of course - I have owned all the Line 6 crap too.  17 years ago was when I had my first Line 6 amp and when I look back at it I laugh.

I have been searching proper sound for a LONG time - over 10 years (after I earned more pro knowledge after the teen ager noise-making phase with amps... I am 31 now and have spent alot of money in the process - more than all challengers to this who have no idea what they are talking about.   So I am not an idiot, I know proper tone....  its simple - when I got the Fractal Box I could get whatever tone that I NEVER able to get with any other modeler period - and I got it with better quality too.  You can't have it both ways man.

This is my last post on here.  This is a total waste of time.  This is not needed.  Pros who have tried it know what the real deal is.  And I am surprised alot of you (i am sure american) are not proud of such a unit made in USA - so the Axe is an engineering marvel you can be proud of - one that does not kill people for a change. because your cars sure are a piece of crap.  So enjoy the Ax while you can until something else comes out to beat it - perhaps even maybe the next line 6 modeler.  But I doubt Line 6 will be the company to beat them.



Re: No milk will ever be our milk.
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2011-03-30 21:57:34

FarBeyond3 wrote:

Saying the industry standard modeler is the best is a wild explanation?

No, saying that the Axe is the industry standard modeler is a wild claim.  If anything is the "industry standard" it's the POD.  I've been in four different recording studios in the past couple of months.  Not a single one of them had an Axe-Fx in it.  All of them had PODs of one variety or another.

I just did a random pick off of Wikipedia's "Recording Studios in the United States" list and picked Ardent Studios in Memphis.  Zeppelin recorded there, among others.  Look at their equipment list:

http://ardentstudios.com/facility-tours/studio-equipment-list/

NoAxe-Fx there...but there is something else:

http://ardentstudios.com/facility-tours/studio-equipment-list/plug-ins/

Line6: Amp Farm.

Fractal.  Industry standard?  I think not.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by toneman2121 on 2011-03-30 21:57:54

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engineer_(disambiguation)



Re: No milk will ever be our milk.
by Mr_Arkadin on 2011-03-31 03:22:38

?FarBeyond3 wrote:


Buddy Ive had every single modeler, from the Boss GT-Pro, Rocktron Prophesy, Voodo Valve, Zoom Stuff, I've had the Korg Modeler, Ive owned the Tech 21 garbage, I have owned all the software simulators from Amplitube 1-3, Guitar Rig 1-5, Nomad Rock amp legends, Softube amp sime, Waves GTR, Overloud TH1, Digidesign eleven, I owned the Digitech boards and rack modelers, and of course - I have owned all the Line 6 crap too.  17 years ago was when I had my first Line 6 amp and when I look back at it I laugh.

I have been searching proper sound for a LONG time - over 10 years (after I earned more pro knowledge after the teen ager noise-making phase with amps... I am 31 now and have spent alot of money in the process - more than all challengers to this who have no idea what they are talking about.   So I am not an idiot, I know proper tone....  its simple - when I got the Fractal Box I could get whatever tone that I NEVER able to get with any other modeler period - and I got it with better quality too.  You can't have it both ways man.

You're 31 and you've not learned how to communicate with people or that other people have may have different views and that you may not always be right? That's pretty poor. It seems to me that it would have been easier and cheaper to buy a couple of valve amps rather than all those modellers you hate.

You tried all those modellers and you've learned what? Maybe spending all that time and money on modellers has separated you from the rest of the human race. Go outside and try and communicate with people as you have here. And try to dodge the inevitable punch.

FarBeyond3 wrote:


This is my last post on here.  This is a total waste of time.

The first sensible thing you've ever posted. Well done that man.



Re: No milk will ever be our milk.
by amgamg on 2011-03-31 03:37:48

Aren't you the guy who a couple of months back was scraping pennies together to hopefully get an Axe?

Now your a top pro technician with the knowledge of the ages and all the modeling gear that was ever invented.

I submit you are a bologna vender of the highest order...I'll take one on rye with mustard and onion.



Re: No milk will ever be our milk.
by nuser101 on 2011-03-31 05:05:23

And I'm George Bush

That, and a history of purchasing everything you can get your hands on, is all you've got.



Re: No milk will ever be our milk.
by rivertownmusic on 2011-03-31 09:04:01

In your 'parting' statement you had the opportunity to summarise and and attempt to make some coherant sense of your views, opinions and judgements.

Imagine you have two pills. The 1st keeps you totally isolated within the 'virtual' world without any reference to what may exist outside. The 2nd offers the opportunity of understanding reality and the objectivity it offers. You certainly appear in this analogy to have prescribed to the former rather than the latter. A great shame.

The greater shame however is to insult a persons nationality in some pathetic off handed last ditched attempt at throwing the last punch. I do hope you re not from the UK. If you are then you're an embarrassment to all UK Musicians with an inability to rise above stereotypes.

You've squadered a great opportunity to learn, expand and add the credible knowledge and opinion of others to your own...FOR FREE!

Experience will tell you in time that one box does not achieve all, however good it is. The final question is, will you ever listen?

You do not need to answer this. Just swallow your last mouth full, leave the table and don't come back. 



Re: No milk will ever be our milk.
by kalamazona on 2011-03-31 10:00:20

Hey to all, I'm the new kid in class and I thought I would just drop by and register my POD XT LIVE and do a lil surfin to see whats's goin on. The first thing I see in this "milk" forum is a 31 year old cat schoolin (or thinkin so) on how to get good tone and a slew of people who also know that its not worth the time or effort to respond to such nonsense. I think or at least I hope we can all agree that good tone for someone is not the same as someone elses idea of the same. This idea has way too many variables to even waste time with and I thought that those who responded to such nonsense did so as effectively as possible. It's fun readin and in the process, knowledge can actually be gained by some of the responses. In the end, it's a personal decision as to the question of "GOOD TONE" but what the 31 year old does'nt seem to understand are number 1, It doesnt matter if you've gone through thousands of dollars worth of equipment and there's more money where that came from or not, if you're a decent player, you can make small changes to any rig, for any song, played in any style and find something that will come close enough. 2,It would appear that this cat is frustrated about more than just the tone he's hearin by the way he explains himself to be smarter than the room by all the knowledge he's gained over such a stellar career and along the way, forgot the most important thing, experimenting is fun or at least it should be. If ya aint havin fun, try playin something else or just buy a stereo and listen to other people. When your frustration level reaches the point where you think that it's the equipment's fault instead of your own, you may need to start putting all that money into lessons which keeps your kind out of chat rooms such as this where people are excited to talk and listen to like minded individuals. Now stepping down from the pulpit I would just like to say I've been playin off and on since the early 80's but have only jammed garage style. I started with a couple of Tiesco's and a 5w Kay tube amp that my aunt gave me. I have been through quite a few guitars and amp's through the years but it's been fun and I only let 1 get away that I would like to get back. Even though my XT Live is a lil dated, it's like brand new and I am amazed at what this thing can do. I've only had it 2 days and the inspiration that I get from it cant be compared to any of my music related trades or purchases that I can remember. I traded a 99 Lonestar Strat with a Mity Mite ash body in blueburst,Tone rider Classic Blues pup's and 3 micro switches to select each pup in/off or out of phase and a maple/maple neck in mint cond.with a gig bag for a Warmoth ash natural finish bodied,Warmoth Imbuia/Ebony neck,Emg Gimour pup's and locking tuners and Wilkinson vintage trem and roller nut, all in mint cond. with a hardshell case and this XT Live in the original packaging in as new cond. and he even threw $50.00 in the mix. Gotta love Craigslist. This cat had it BAD for that Strat. I couldnt get along with the neck but for an ultra clean tone in any of the configurations possible with that guitar, I would definately recommend those pup's if clean blues is your thing. The Warmoth has a killer neck and will absolutley spend more time on the stand than on the hanger. I hate to use the term "NO TRADE CLAUSE" cause when it comes to guitars cause life can throw curveballs but I think its safe to say that because of all that can be achieved with this XT LIVE, it will be in the collection for a long time. I'm very impressed and I havent even scratched the surface of it's capabilities !. This thing is amazing and I cant remember being this inspired by any piece of gear with so many possibilities.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by wardick on 2011-04-01 14:19:26

The economy made me sell my Axe-Fx.   Whoa... the lost art of the paragraph or word wall as someone else called it rears itself again.



Re: No milk will ever be our milk.
by GonzaloTrejos on 2011-04-06 16:59:52

Plainly, if you have $2000 and know what you like, you go and buy  your dream rig for real.

Amp simulation is all about having  a lot of quality audio resources at an affordable price. That's why you don't see many AXE FX's in big studios. They already have  the high end preamps, mics and rooms to record your guitar with top  notch quality. They have PODs in case they need to achieve some kind of  special "sound texture" from a producer's request: "I'm thinking in a Telecaster  through an orange amp for this solo, but for the rest I want a Vox AC  30, can we try that?". The POD X3 is the best machine ever built for this. Lots of amps, lots of effects, fast interface for getting "the sound" quickly, never intended to replace the original stuff, but to effectively simulate it.

The Axe seems like killing a fly with a bazooka. Boutique price, but simulation sound (try the real amps and effects to hear what I mean), no pedalboard option so you'll need a controller ($350 extra) in order to change patches.

If you have a successful original band, get the amp and effects you like the most, and ask the studio or live sound engineer to capture YOUR sound. If you are a working musician playing covers and top 40 stuff, and you have to play songs from Journey, Godsmack and Clint Black on the same week, get a POD X3.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by KernalKlink on 2011-04-12 23:31:06

Does the new POD HD come close?



Re: No milk will ever be our milk.
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2011-04-14 05:46:44

GonzaloTrejos wrote:

Plainly, if you have $2000 and know what you like, you go and buy  your dream rig for real.

---

The Axe seems like killing a fly with a bazooka. Boutique price, but simulation sound (try the real amps and effects to hear what I mean), no pedalboard option so you'll need a controller ($350 extra) in order to change patches.

You're preaching to the choir if your response is directed at me.



Re: No milk will ever be our milk.
by Lance on 2011-04-14 06:56:33

"wishful thinking to make a lower fidelity device with far less tweakability sound as good as a higher fidelity one."

FarBeyond3.

That's the problem, guitar amps aren't meant to be high fidelity sound machines, they're ugly sounding amplification methods for guitarists, real amps are actually low fidelity...only guitarists think a fuzzy gritty distorted "mess" sounds beautiful, our wives and kids think it's an ugly noise...most people think it's a noise.

The Axe-FX invented high fidelity guitar tone, higher fidelity than is needed, like over the top high fidelity.... that's why every amp sim on the Axe-FX sounds too good, not real, like a clarified more focused version of the real thing...some interpret that as better, some think it's un-natural sounding, synthetic.



Re: Use By Date Expired
by Lance on 2011-04-14 07:03:51

don't let someone else tell you who you are, and believe me, your tone is part of who you are - it's value doesn't correlate with the price of the box you use...nuser101

Wise words indeed.



Re: No milk will ever be our milk.
by GonzaloTrejos on 2011-04-14 08:14:27

Hi Karl:

My post was just my general opinion in the original Post discussion about the X3, the AXE, and all that. Did I post it directly to you? Sorry!

Chalo



Re: No milk will ever be our milk.
by amgamg on 2011-04-15 03:42:13

Lance wrote:

"wishful thinking to make a lower fidelity device with far less tweakability sound as good as a higher fidelity one."

FarBeyond3.

That's the problem, guitar amps aren't meant to be high fidelity sound machines, they're ugly sounding amplification methods for guitarists, real amps are actually low fidelity...only guitarists think a fuzzy gritty distorted "mess" sounds beautiful, our wives and kids think it's an ugly noise...most people think it's a noise.

The Axe-FX invented high fidelity guitar tone, higher fidelity than is needed, like over the top high fidelity.... that's why every amp sim on the Axe-FX sounds too good, not real, like a clarified more focused version of the real thing...some interpret that as better, some think it's un-natural sounding, synthetic.

Your point in this is the best I've heard yet. Not because it says something negative toward the Axe/Fx. I've never tried one.... I might even like it. My issue has always been with the slams and put downs by Axe users towards those who don't use them. Back to your point ..which I think is interesting. Even today with all that's available you have guys like Jack White using Silvertone amps and vintage Airline guitars..and Gretsch. This gear among the "Low Fi" gear is sometimes considered garbage. Yet I'd say Jack White sounds good...even great. This is the point some Axe/Fx guys sorely miss.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Lance on 2011-05-19 00:11:41

Does the new POD HD come close?

You decide.

http://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=10632968



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by KernalKlink on 2011-05-19 08:48:15

Wow! That was a great demo and should help alot of people make a more informed decision. Thanks!



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by toneman2121 on 2011-05-21 20:53:14

JAMMIN' !!



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by nuser101 on 2011-05-22 06:59:16

Not only is it a good clip, but it's not argumentative - it's out there for anyone who wants to evaluate it. It's quite a different approach than someone else has taken on this thread. Who could that be...oh I don't know...well, its right on the tip of my tongue...could it be... SATAN?!?!

(with apologies to Dana Carvey).



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by davidrousseau on 2011-07-05 21:46:25

OK- I've owned an Axe-FX as well as many Line 6 products, and while we may want to rag on Line 6 about "prompt" updates,  I owned the first Vetta, and numerous firmware updates over 2-3 years turned it from a Vetta I into a Vetta II and if it wasn't for the fact that it was a heavy 2x12 combo, I'd still have it.

  • Let's ask the question if AxeFX had a firmware update to change a standard to an ultra ?

  • Let's ask AxeFX if they have a supported editor, or is it still in beta.  This was a high end 2000 dollar product wasn't it ?

  • Lets ask if their product's motherboard (mine was received with a dead CMOS battery and would not save patches) failed while they were being aquired by another large company,  or if they went out of business, your 2000 dorostop would become just that, unless you did component level IC board repairs.

If you think I'm a shill for Line 6, no no no.  I would consider either an AxeFX, Ultra, or AxeFXII, because they sound that good.  The real question is whether the Axe series is 1500 bucks better than a particular Line 6 product, and same questions as above, i.e. are the firmware updates of value, is there a supported editor, and how to fix the motherboard.

In addition, the AxeFX will not make a closet studio musician who's band now has soccer kids any better.  Not in my case.  If I had the bucks to easily part with without facing the facts down the road,  I'd buy whatever I could get a god deal on in their product line because they sound great.  Side by side it's obvious, but in a mix, that many people listen to in compressed format, I'm not so sure.

Comments are welcome



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2011-07-06 07:35:00

davidrousseau wrote:

  • Let's ask AxeFX if they have a supported editor, or is it still in beta.  This was a high end 2000 dollar product wasn't it ?

http://www.fractalaudio.com/products-axe-edit.html

Itwould appear that there's a supported editor, in version 1.0.183.  So it's out of beta now.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by PrimitiveLyric on 2011-07-06 15:59:59

I bought the AXE-FX last year, and I didn't buy the Ultra because, quite frankly, I don't need or use the majority of the effects that are in it.

I've owned all POD stuff up until the X3 Live, which by that time I was so disappointed I just went elsewhere. After trying Peavey's Revalver, Ampltiude 2 and 3, and Guitar Rig 2, 3 and 4, I became more fed up, although I liked Revalver but didn't want to be tied to the computer. So I bought the Axe -Fx. I didn't like it that much at first, and even went back to Amplitude 3 and Guitar Rig 4. After spending some time with the Axe-Fx (the presets suck), I must say I finally love the thing. I can get a close enough to sound to whatever song I want to play and it just FEELS right when playing. The other stuff, besides maybe revalver, sounded sterile to me when playing solos.

davidrousseau asked if the AXE was worth $1500.00 more than Line 6 stuff, and I will offer yes it is. Does line 6 have a firmware update to make a X3 Live into a HD500? However with the newest firmware update the models were very much improved. The AXE has an editor, but if memory serves me well, the Line 6 editor was in beta a long time and changed many forms. I have no idea what you meant to say on the last question. Can you easily fix a line 6 motherboard? Fractal Audio is not as large as Line 6 and I hope it never is. Look at what happened with Fender, or Gibson....

True, in a mix, the average listener may not know the difference that much between a HD500 and a Axe-FX, I don't have a HD so I don't know.  However to my ears (and to me this makes all the difference) the Axe-Fx gives me the "feel" I need when playing. I get positive feedback, rather than trying to work extra hard to make something sound good (or overload it with effects to mask it).

Bottom line it is up the individual on what to purchase. However this advice has always served me well: you get what you pay for.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by davidrousseau on 2011-07-08 22:08:57

A few things have changed since I looked seriously at the AxeFX, and yes, it looks like it has a supported editor.  When I had the AxeFX (standard) and was playing with it quite a bit, I plugged into a PodXT and heard the difference immediately.  Now that I sold it, and have not heard it for a while, the PodXT sounds good.  Yes, the AxeFX is hi fi, and while it's hard to say hifi and distortion in the same sentence,  the "guitar tone" is impressive, and it's pretty cool to move tone stacks between amps.  The AxeFX will produce better sounds if you need better sounds.  In the end, it's personal preference.

The potential motherboard problem issue was obvious when I got my AxeFX and it would not save patches.  I opened it up, and just like the computers I work on alot, it was a dead CMOS battery.  Yes, the patch memory is volatile.   If my computer needs a new motherboard, and I usually build my own, a new one might cost 150-200 dollars, but I'm beting that Fractal Audio stuff will most likely be harder to repair if Fractal were to go out of business than a hand wired tube amp.

To be fair, it's all a calculated risk, and it sounds better, they will probably stay in business and you get all the sound you need.  If I could get one on Amazon with a 30 day return with no wait, I would be tempted, and maybe some time on the Fractal forums looking for hints on reliability and repair issues would be good for me to do.   It's also alot like golf- having the latest driver and great clubs rules out equipment failure if you don't sound good.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by PhilBald on 2011-08-15 08:29:48

Just my $0.02 worth....

As of today, I think that some of the greatest emulated guitar tones come from free VST plugins and dedicated amp simulation software (LePou, Nick Crow Labs, Guitar Rig 4, Revalver MKIII.5, Amplitube 3, Overloud TH2, etc.). There is no doubt that $2000 will get me a very good computer and low-latency soundcard to run this kind of software efficiently for recording or reamping guitar tracks (plus, the computer would serve as a DAW and many more things as well...) Having said that, the Axe-Fx is of no use to me for recording. A computer with plugins is far more efficient and has much more processing power.

For rehearsals and gigs, I think a POD HD is all I need. Line 6 had made a tremendous step forward with the HD series. To me, it sounds, feels and reacts infinitely better that the 2.0, xT and X3. Granted, I have never tried an Axe-Fx, but the POD HD does everything I want and then some so I feel no need to reach out for an Axe-Fx, especially considering the price point (I bought a very nice guitar with the money spared)

Also, the S/PDIF dry input option in the POD HD makes it really easy to use software plugins to create great recorded guitar tones while hearing the POD's tone with minimal latency (~2-3ms) when actually recording.

The Axe-Fx is in a niche market for players who desire a premium all-in-one hardware solution. With the Standard and Ultra models becoming obsolete (arguably, from what I've heard, the Axe-Fx II sounds MUCH better than the previous ones) one can see the limitations of having an expensive hardware solution for great tone. When the Axe-Fx III hits the market in a couple of years, the Standard model will be totally outdated and maybe the sucessor of POD HD will have incorporated the possibility to load our own cabinet impulses (my main gripe about POD HD). Then there will certainly be a more even playing field despite the price difference between both units.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by toneman2121 on 2011-08-16 03:16:57

that sounds like 2 bucks worth. very well spent.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2011-08-16 05:29:10

PhilBald wrote:

With the Standard and Ultra models becoming obsolete (arguably, from what I've heard, the Axe-Fx II sounds MUCH better than the previous ones) one can see the limitations of having an expensive hardware solution for great tone.

I know you're a Line6 guy and have no need for the Axe, but ask yourself this:  If the original Standard and Ultra sounded so much like the real thing that you couldn't tell the difference, how is it that the Axe-II could sound "MUCH better" than the first gen units? 

It was implied, nay, outright stated that the original Axe-Fx was superior to anything else out there.  How could anything ever beat it?    Of course, I say this tongue firmly in cheek because if you followed the saga, you'd also see that the Axe continually beat itself at it's own game with every firmware update.

Hype.  Pure and simple.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Paulaner347 on 2012-05-01 04:01:27

Sorry, almost a year since the last post was written regarding this topic...

I'm one of those players who switched from an XT pod to an Axe-Fx Standart in summer 2008 - I still use my rusty old standard - nah, it's not hype....if you need a great effect processor alongside with a good preamp or even use some of the internal preamp tones - and of corse, know how to dial in some tones - you'll be very pleased with the results! Of corse, I was very happy with the XT some years before, but the axe put the thing on a whole new level!

I'm not one of those guys (there are plenty of them anywhere) who belive to dial in famous tones or replace famous gear with modeling gear - I'm just one of them who dial in his own tones, sounds whatever you might call them. If you think that all axe players are just fanboys who belive in those PR bullshit you here from every company (aka the best got even better blahblahblah) on the scene today (even from L6 some years ago in a different way), then you're on a mission my friend!

Today I use a pod HD desktop alongside with the standard in my rig. Both units are great in their own way - I love the axe for the effects (in a 4CM setup with my mesaboogie rig) and some amp tones, the pod HD for it's  clean & crunchy amp tones. Every device has his special characteristic or tonal concept - for me, it's not about modeling, it's about bending tones without modifying real amps. The only amp I was ever happy with it from the scratch was the old mesa studiopreamp.

cheers

Paulaner



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Karl_Houseknecht on 2012-05-01 07:01:03

Paulaner347 wrote:

I still use my rusty old standard - nah, it's not hype....

I didn't say that the Axe doesn't sound great.  It does.  The "hype" I was referring to is that it was originally touted as so close to the real thing that in some cases it sounded better than the real thing.  And yet, with every firmware update and now with the advent of the Axe II, it sounds even better than before.  How is that possible if it already sounded better than the real thing?

I really do like the Axe-Fx for the amp and cab models. It's awesome sounding.  But lets not get carried away here.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by GonzaloTrejos on 2012-05-01 07:15:51

It's beginning to get into the "is toyota better than nissan?" kind of discussion at this moment. At this point, we now went into the original topic from the AXE vs. X3 to the newer versions of the AXE vs. L6's HD technology. Long standing discussion, but somehow pointless I dare to say. I propose to sidetrack again, and really point out strenghts and weaknesses of every machine, or better yet, post studio and live tested tones from every unit, real usable stuff that can get your tone better every day... say... "I've discovered that the (model) amp on the X3 combined with the (cab) gives a nice basic clean tone for 80's covers"... kind of info.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by phil_m on 2012-05-01 07:44:53

I agree to a large extent it's all kind of pointless. Even the idea of "better" is kind of vague when it comes to tone. It's only better if you think it's better, and what sounds better to one person may sound worse to another. Really, people just need to find what they like and go down that path. We have ton more options available to us than previous generations of guitarists, and we can do stuff for a couple hundred bucks that would have cost thousands years ago.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by PrimitiveLyric on 2012-05-01 15:02:10

I hate to say this Karl, but the Axe isn't hype. It's the real deal. We all know technology improves over time, therefore making chips and stuff cheaper as newer ones come on the market. Plus, like Line 6, they are a business and need to make money therefore new products come in to replace the old ones.

The old addage is usually correct: "You get what you pay for." In fact, before I bought the Axe II to replace my Standard, I almost bought a Mesa boogie Mark V head. However, after trying a Mark V, I really found out I also wanted to be able to get a wider range of tones than one amp would give me (not to mention needing the ability to play at low volumes but make it sound like it's at stage volumes without adding hardware). Add the effects in the equation, and it really is a good deal. I haven't played around with the "HD" stuff from Line 6, but I've owned practically all the POD family before the HD's. However, I can honestly say my tone search has been satisfied. But that's just me, personally.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Mr_Arkadin on 2012-05-01 16:13:55

PrimitiveLyric wrote:

I hate to say this Karl, but the Axe isn't hype. It's the real deal.

Try reading what he wrote again.



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by wardick on 2012-05-01 18:41:05

So it begins again.  Its about that time of year they come knocking on the door again.  



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by cgtrox on 2012-05-01 20:39:20

Beating-a-dead-horse.gif

(click on pic)

cgtrox



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Paulaner347 on 2012-05-09 14:41:25

I might get you wrong here Karl - appologies sent ;-)

@ cgtrox: It's not about beating death horses.......it's about sharing thoughts.....

anyway, BTT:

It does better than the real deal in some cases, not many get that point right (in what it means for real when talking about "better than the real deal") - you can tweak those digital templates the way you want, modify them in depth - it's more than just modeling - that's why I still like the concept behind the axe-fx a lot  better than those kemper profiling story (which is IMO the ultimate "modeling" you can get today, because you get a digital fingerprint).

So we should ask ourself "what is modeling" - modeling is a digital fingerprint of original gear, it might have the characteristics, the "typical" signs - always real close to the original.

The Axe-Fx goes beyond than just "being close to the original" - combine a classic RCA, baxandall or the "D" skyline tonestack with a blackface type preamp, changing poweramp, psu- & output transformer parameters as you like - and get "your" sound - in a digital enviroment! Yeah - this is something most players can't go for - they need to be close to the original or the general meaning about "what does the job for the overall guitarists". But those players who care about their own tone in a modern outfit, they'll be much happy with the axe-fx.

Well....to be honest - much players out there need to have what everyone else does. So you call this hype - I'm calling this "normal", or a sign of our modern "overloaded" time. Today you can have almost everything - every company will promise you they found the holy grail specially for you - because they need your money. Everyone, Fractal Audio, Avid, Digitech, Rocktron, etc. etc. & Line6 - so much folks out there are highly confused - they need something they can hold their hands on and believe in. But not everyone - some give a **** what others telling about product XY against VY, they use gear because it sounds okey for their own ears!

I hope you understand what I'm talking about! Axe-Fx owners are not just believers and fanboys who stumbled over another marketing hype

Some years ago - i put an example of such a personal tone up on my site (most guys a TGP put it into the "D"-type sound corner which is just because of the "tune" - not beacuse of the tone - I must admit, I'm a very very bad copist when it comes to music, - this is just my way doing it, nothing else) which can be heard in the G66.eu "Sounds-Page" since then- here is a link: http://www.g66.eu/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=851&Itemid=90

or">http://www.g66.eu/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=851&Itemid=90">http://www.g66.eu/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=851&Itemid=90

orTGP http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?t=621420

So">http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?t=621420">http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?t=621420

So- what???

The PODxt or the original POD (one of the first shipped to europe in late 1998!!!) Mk1 was great for me back the years, when it comes to Line6 today I enjoy the new POD HD (desktop) which does a great job aside of the axe-fx, my mesaboogie studio preamp, Yamaha DG1000 (yeah, I use one of these super old boxes too....) - I personally don't care if somebody would call me "unprofessional" because of my choise of gear - those machines are chosen by ear, by application - not by brand or the meaning of somebody else. The POD HD has his own character - which I like very much (specially for crunchy tones) - the axe-fx which I love for some fx's tones and some amp-a-like-tones, the boogie - which has a nice clean and a great lead sound (in combination with the Axe and my rusty old PCM70, which I use for reverb ony), the DG1000 has a very cool lead tone - and the modulation sounds of the Alesis midiverb4 are just perfect for one special tone - I can't get all those tones from one box - they feel and react different too....but they are all great in their own way! Digital, analogue.....i don't care!

I even love some amp software solutions (you might notice the Klark Teknik DN100 DI-Box on the picts below - this is the analogue front end for the Scuffham Amp and IK's Amplitube 3.5 ;-)) - for some reasons I love them too.....

...btw. I even got one of those "evil" behringer ADA8000 in the back of my rack - pretty cool - one TOS-Link wire to get all signals to my audio interface. It looks very unprofessional - but hey....no hiss, no hum, no noise at all! Great! And I'm living-room compatible.....

cheers

Paulaner



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by Paulaner347 on 2012-05-09 15:06:49

<a target=new href=http://www.pacocasanovas.ch/DSC00852.jpg"class="jive-image" src="http://www.pacocasanovas.ch/DSC00852.jpg"/><a target=new href=http://www.pacocasanovas.ch/DSC00851.jpg"class="jive-image" src="http://www.pacocasanovas.ch/DSC00851.jpg"/>

Axe-Fx and POD HD in a peaceful combination - it's possible!



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by geeker on 2012-05-22 02:43:18

cgtrox wrote:

Beating-a-dead-horse.gif

(click on pic)

cgtrox



Re: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx...made me sell my X3
by GonzaloTrejos on 2012-05-22 08:52:22

Nice Rack! Ha ha!




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