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JTV-59P - unwanted harmonics on D tunings
by kenden on 2012-12-05 04:34:43

Hi all

Just got a JTV-59P and I'm having a problem with the acoustics and alt tunings. If I dial up DADGAD and play a G on the first string, I'm getting an loud harmonic ring - A on the 4th I believe. It's not acoustic bleed as I've recorded it with audacity and the harmonic is still present. If I retune the guitar to DADGAD manually the ring isn't there (or not so much as to be a problem). Any one have the same issue (or maybe solved it)?

I notice the same ringing on some of the Lester models in standard tuning with high gain sounds - are the 59's sonically prone to this harmonic?

I use model D tunings most of the time, so it's rendering the guitar pretty well unusable for me! Thinking of returning it if I can't resolve it quickly.

Thanks!



Re: JTV-59P - unwanted harmonics on D tunings
by adessmith on 2012-12-05 13:07:33

Interesting,

I got a 59 a few weeks ago (not a 59P), and I found something VERY similar.
My serial number is from a batch in 2010, but if yours is a 59P it must be much newer...
Just curious what firmware version you are running, I updated mine to 1.9 upon arival, so I dont know if the problem would have exisited on the original factory firmware.
I dont really use a lot of alt tunings, but for me, in standard tuning the problem is mainly with the open D (as well as other places on the neck to play the same note)
The harmonic note that is sounding is an A.. my tuner even picks it up, but the A string isnt vibrating. I can mute all the other strings and I still get the harmonic on the D string.

As you said, the Lester models with higher gain is exactally where I notice it the most (especially the 3 position of the 3w switch)

I have another thread here: http://line6.com/support/thread/89396?tstart=0 which I started a few weeks ago.
I really dont want to return the guitar, so I have been dealing with support. On my support case, they had me make a recording demonstrating the problem and upload it. I did that last weekend and havent heard anything back. It would be great if you would submit a trouble ticket also, that way they will know its not just an isolated problem.

I'm glad to know that I am not crazy...



Re: JTV-59P - unwanted harmonics on D tunings
by kenden on 2012-12-06 02:38:43

Firmware is 1.82 - can't put 1.9 on as there seems to be an issue with Vista and Monkey (there is a thread on that as well!). I've got round it to a degree by putting a Csus4 tuning on the custom bank and then capo up to D, which doesn't suffer so much.

You can see the strong A harmonic appearing on a spectrum analysis, so it is certainly there.

If I can work out how I'll raise a support ticket as well.



Re: JTV-59P - unwanted harmonics on D tunings
by YirWaffy on 2012-12-07 13:35:58

I had a similar harmonic issue with my 89 and ended up returning it. I'm watching the threads here to see if Line 6 has any resolution before trying another one.

I had no problems with Vista and Monkey. Two things:

- Make sure that you're plugging directly to a USB port on the computer and not a USB hub. It's probably also a good idea to not have any high activity USB devices going while using the Line 6 tools (USB backup drive, printer, etc.).

- Make sure your Java is up-to-date. I think Monkey & Workbench are 32-bit apps so make sure you have the 32-bit version of Java installed and up-to-date:

http://www.java.com/en/download/faq/java_win64bit.xml">http://www.java.com/en/download/faq/java_win64bit.xml">http://www.java.com/en/download/faq/java_win64bit.xml

Safest bet is to have both versions installed (they can co-exist on 64-bit Windows).



Re: JTV-59P - unwanted harmonics on D tunings
by bmberry99 on 2013-01-03 11:45:01

Please see my correspondence with Line 6 where they are trying to fob the problem off as though I am the only one having problems  regards Brian Berry. http://line6.com/account/tickets/edit/195441">http://line6.com/account/tickets/edit/195441">http://line6.com/account/tickets/edit/195441



Re: JTV-59P - unwanted harmonics on D tunings
by bmberry99 on 2013-01-03 11:45:59

Please see my correspondence with Line 6 where they are trying to fob the problem off as though I am the only one having problems  regards Brian Berry. http://line6.com/account/tickets/edit/195441



Re: JTV-59P - unwanted harmonics on D tunings
by adessmith on 2013-01-03 17:27:30

I have had Line 6 investigating this, and they are now suggesting I send it to them for repair.
I am nervous about shipping my guitar and being without it for an extended period of time.
Anyone here had to send in a Variax for repair? How long did it take?



Re: JTV-59P - unwanted harmonics on D tunings
by bmberry99 on 2013-01-04 04:32:53

Hi ,

     If you look at my link you will see that Hugo from line 6 is in effect saying that the harmony problem is inherent with the design of the guitar and so if that is the case what are they going to repair if you send it in to them. Could you please say what they think the problem is, Thanks.BB



Re: JTV-59P - unwanted harmonics on D tunings
by adessmith on 2013-01-04 04:43:59

I can not view your case without signing in as you...
Anyone who clicks on the link will be taken to "their" open support cases, not yours.

They have not said what the problem is.
However, I'm thinking my problem may be worse than yours... the note even shows up incorrectly with a guitar tuner.

If I pluck a d, the tuner shows a Dfor a second, then it turns into an A.

This happens, even with the other strings muted.



Re: JTV-59P - unwanted harmonics on D tunings
by adessmith on 2013-01-04 06:03:02

I should also add, they had me record a sample through my pod and send it to them.
They also had me upload the Pod patches I used on the recording.

Using a replicated hardware setup with the exact same settings, they could not duplicate the problem.
To me, this suggests that mine is not a problem which is " inherent with the design of the guitar", because not all JTV-59 guitars exhibit the same problem!

However, I think my problem is not exactally the same as yours.
They suggested at first, that my "problem" was sympathetic resonance... I think they suggested this, because the conclusion of your case. I have experienced sympathetic resonance on other guitars (has always been expensive guitars), and adjusted my technique to deal with it (mute unused strings). Its more a quality of the guitar than a defect.

From what I understand sympathetic resonance is an "issue" of very high quality woods, where the transfer of energy between the body of the guitar and the strings is so "efficient" that it causes a transfer of energy from one string to another.

My bet is on your guitar the fundimental note, and the overtone are coming from different strings.
On mine, its coming from the same string. I think that is what makes my problem different. There is no way to adjust technique to adapt.



Re: JTV-59P - unwanted harmonics on D tunings
by bmberry99 on 2013-01-04 06:52:28

This is a copy of all the correspondence as you will see they also had me make a sound file and also mentioned sympathetic resonance as the cause.

Initial Complaint 

Hi, I visited the Line 6 premises in Rugby today having got a problem with what I can only describe as a harmonic overtone which is most pronounced when playing in open G and mainly when playing single notes on the Top E and B string. This was heard by two technicians namely Sean and Mark. After having consulted with Tim they came to the conclusion that it was the design of the guitar which allowed other strings to give a harmonic feedback unless the other strings were damped. However when I got back home I tried other open tunings with similar results which is not how a guitar should behave. On searching the line 6 website I have found numerous similar complaints which have not been addressed on different settings on the guitar which makes me suspect that there is an inherent fault with the piezo bridge. Could you please research this matter with Line 6 in America because I believe that they must be aware of this problem and assertain what they intend to do about it, Kind regards Brian Berry.



Re: JTV-59P - unwanted harmonics on D tunings
by Javadog2008 on 2013-01-04 16:52:01

Just to add my two cents. I have a 69k recently purchased that exhibits the exact same issues you are describing. I opened a support ticket as well so we will see.



Re: JTV-59P - unwanted harmonics on D tunings
by adessmith on 2013-01-04 18:26:04

Wow. Reading that support ticket was painful. They really need to fix their website.

When on the trouble ticket page the links at the top of the page are broken also. The support ticket process was a NIGHTMARE.

Hugo is now telling me I could be without my guitar for as long as a month! I decided to call up the music store I got it from and they agreed to let me return it and get a new one... Even though I am outside of the normal return period!

Should take considerably less time than letting Line 6 poke and prod at it.

I really hope the new one is free of problems.



Re: JTV-59P - unwanted harmonics on D tunings
by adessmith on 2013-01-07 06:28:54

For what it's worth... They seemed to suspect a possible problem with the piezo pickup.
There was a slightly rough texture where the string meets the bridge.
It may be that this is raising the string off the bridge EVER SO SLIGHTLY, and causing a buzz against the bridge at just the right spot to create an artificial harmonic.

I noticed a similar rough texture on the A string saddle as well but it didnt have the wierd overtone that the D string did. (However, that string seemed to "die off" and stop sustaining more quickly than the others...which does seem to add merrit to this theory)

Either way, the guitar is on its way back to Music123 for exchange, so I'll never know what the problem was for sure.



Re: JTV-59P - unwanted harmonics on D tunings
by bmberry99 on 2013-01-08 08:44:41

Went to PMT today in Birmingham where I bought the guitar from, their guitar tech had a listen and said its not the guitar itself its the piezo and after a general conflab with various members of staff their they came to the conclusion that the processor in the electronics wasn't powerful enough to process the information quickly enough thats why you get a discordant noise, if it were just sympathic resonance the noise would be harmonic but it isn't. One of the staff phoned up Line 6 at Rugby and the chief technician there stated that thats how these guitars are because of the limitations of the technology. From my own observations and that of others I believe that there is a fundamental fault in this range of guitars and Line 6 have known about it for a number of years and have just fobed customers off with various excuses. Want proof of this have a look back through various forums, not very happy with the response from Line 6,  BB



Re: JTV-59P - unwanted harmonics on D tunings
by bmberry99 on 2013-01-09 05:31:28

The latest reply from Line 6 which at last seems to admit the problem is on of the electronics not being able to cope,

Hello,

We’ve spent several hours investigating this.  Our QA dept. was able to reproduce the issue exactly as recorded and reviewed the use case w/ engineering.

The following are the conditions which combine to produce the issue:

•     For every open string on the guitar, there are several fretted notes on other strings which due to their harmonic relationship will excite a sympathetic vibration in the appropriate open string.

•     Piezos pick up harmonics and also quiet fundamentals a bit louder than mags do both due to the difference in how they convert the strings energy to electricity AND their placement exactly at the bridge’s break point. We do quite a lot in F/W to compensate for this and model the sound and behavior of magnetic pickups, but some aspects of the piezo do still have a slight effect on the end sonic product.

•     When the user plays a note that excites an open string, and either the played or sympathetically excited string is virtually retuned down a step, the interval which would normally be a unison (in the case the customer originally described) becomes a Major 2nd which is comparatively dissonant.

This is very simple to confirm. The same sound in the issue can be easily produced by (in variax mode w/ the blues G tuning) playing a twelfth fret harmonic on the G string (even very quietly) and then playing the offending note at the 3rd fret on the highest string (physically a G, but sounds as an F due to the virtual tuning). Not to point out further problems, but playing the 5th fret on the B string (in blues G) will produce similar results if the A string is not muted for exactly the same reason.

While this behavior is arguably less than optimal since this differs from the behavior of a guitar which has actually been retuned, it is currently a limitation of our system. Attempting to determine in real time w/ out added lag whether a specific harmonic was picked, tapped, lightly touched to convert from a sustaining fundamental or excited sympathetically is highly complex and as no such technology is implemented in any current product may not even be feasible.

For the short term the way to work around the issue (while using virtual tuning) is to focus on right and left hand muting of individual strings while playing as one would in a high feedback situation such as playing a hollowbody at a high stage volume.

Another solution is to actually physically retune the guitar, though this is understandably unacceptable in a stage setting if the guitar is to be played in multiple tunings during the same performance.

Regards,

Line6Hugo



Re: JTV-59P - unwanted harmonics on D tunings
by bmberry99 on 2013-01-23 03:38:48

Have a look at the various entries on this link, some interesting theory's   http://line6.com/support/thread/90742">http://line6.com/support/thread/90742">http://line6.com/support/thread/90742



Re: JTV-59P - unwanted harmonics on D tunings
by Nipp on 2013-01-23 05:26:13

Maybe we just have to accept the limitations of electronic tunings.

It got to be a problem - especially in live situations - where you get feedback from an amp on stage that will resonate with strings physically - but are to be output at another pitch.

It's a vast undertaking to implement this.

When it works and you can use it - fine - otherwise do manual tunings of the instrument.

I don't know if Variax get hickups when guitar is not tuned to regular tuning, or???



Re: JTV-59P - unwanted harmonics on D tunings
by phil_m on 2013-01-23 06:52:39

Actually physically tuning the strings differently on the Variax works fine, too.

I have to admit that I don't use alternate tuning a whole lot, but when I have I haven't had a huge issue with this problem. I suppose it depends a lot on the type of music you're playing and what you're plugged into, etc.



Re: JTV-59P - unwanted harmonics on D tunings
by adessmith on 2013-01-23 07:06:55

Also, my understanding is that some instruments will also be impacted by sympethetic resonance more so than others... Even of the same model.
It just depends on the properties of the wood. I have had my hands on 2 different JTV-59's, the first one had a similar overtone/harmonic issue, the second one did not, but it also weighs about 2lb more than the first one. Won't a less dense chunk of wood resonate more than a heavier one?



Re: JTV-59P - unwanted harmonics on D tunings
by phil_m on 2013-01-23 07:29:54

Yeah, that makes sense to me. I would imagine that the 59 would be more susceptible to it than the other models because of the nature of its bridge and lack of tremolo, too.



Re: JTV-59P - unwanted harmonics on D tunings
by adessmith on 2013-01-23 07:40:13

phil_m wrote:

I would imagine that the 59 would be more susceptible to it than the other models because of the nature of its bridge and lack of tremolo, too.

It's interesting that you say that, because I also heard someone send back an 89 due to the same problems.
Check out the images attached to this document:

http://line6.com/support/docs/DOC-2152

The 2nd image title is "JTV 59 89 hex keys.jpg", and its a picture of the bridge from the 59...
Looks like the 59 and 89 have the same bridge design...



Re: JTV-59P - unwanted harmonics on D tunings
by phil_m on 2013-01-23 07:48:05

Oh, that's right, they do... For some reason, I was thinking the 89 had the trem, too. But I guess that's why they're coming out with the Floyd Rose for the 89.



Re: JTV-59P - unwanted harmonics on D tunings
by kenden on 2013-02-26 09:50:05

Hi all - OP here - only just come back to look at the thread!

Having now lived with the JTV 59 for a while (I'd already realised the harmonic overtones were related to the conflict between the 'natural' and pitch shifted tuning) I've come to the following thoughts:

  • For general playing in altered tunings a mixture of muting techniques resolves the problem.
  • It is an insurmountable problem if you are playing in an altered tuning and want the open strings to ring out - say in DADGAD or a CSUS2 tuning a la Martin Simpson - as the overtones are horrible! The only solution is to physically retune the guitar.
  • My feeling is the '59 (or at least the one I have) is quite an 'A resonant' guitar - those tones seem very apparent to my ears - and the nature of the pietzo seems to exacerbate this. I no longer have a Les Paul to compare, but I think the one I had was pretty A resonant as well. Again, muting technique resolves this to a reasonable extent and this is just a factor of learning to live with a particular guitar (IMHO!).
  • A light touch on the acoustic models helps minimise the issue (and makes them sound better!).

I decided to keep the guitar. Not perfect perhaps, but a great creative tool and actually a lot of fun to play! I'm going to experiment with using a damper at the nut (not having felt the need of one before - but if it's good enough for Guthie Govan, it's good enough for me!) to see if that helps mitigate some of the open string problem.

I hope Line 6 continue to work on the issue rather than relegate it to the 'too difficult' pile. Although I can appreciate the problem of differentiating between wanted and unwanted harmonics, it is limited to the altered tunings, so suppressing some harmonics in some tunings might limit the problem to manageable bounds?




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