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Line 6 XD-V35 loud buzzing help needed!
by Johnny4x on 2012-12-06 07:13:42

Hi there - I'm brand new to the world of Digital Wireless - hope someone can help.

I purchased a Line 6 XD-V55HS Digital Wireless Headphone Microphone a few weeks ago, it worked great plugged into our mixing desk.  We also plug into the desk two "wired" mics (xlr) and use the 48v button on the desk to power them.

I have since added a Line 6 XD-V35 hand held mic/receiver - and when I plug this into the desk I get a loud buzzing.  The buzzing goes away when I switch off 48v - but of couse that kills the other mics.

I have tried an "Audio Technica" wireless mic insted of the Line 6 XD-V35 with no problems using the 48v button!

Wonder if I have a faulty unit, or if there is a simple solution?

Big thanks for any help!!

John



Re: Line 6 XD-V35 loud buzzing help needed!
by RonMarton on 2012-12-06 10:28:00

G'day from Down Under, John...

And welcome to our wonderful wireless world!

I suspect that you may be using the "Unbalanced Out" jack from one or both of these units (more likely the newer V35) as, at first glance, a "guitar" jack cable may have seemed to be the most convenient connection.

Use of anything other than XL to XL "mic lead" connections from receiver output/s to mixer "Mic In" socket/s opens a whole can of seriously nasty powering and earthing worms, which is why we tend to use the Unbalanced Out/s exclusively for connection from receiver outputs to the "Mic" input sockets of guitar amp heads and/or simpler "powered loudspeaker on a stick" set-ups.

As it happens, I'm a big fan of earthworms, (especially for fishing) ...but believe me when I say that I always chuck the can of "earthing worms" overboard at the first opportunity.

So I reckon there's a big chance that the nasty buzzes, splats and spurgles will disappear once you swap to correctly-wired balanced mic cables.



Re: Line 6 XD-V35 loud buzzing help needed!
by Johnny4x on 2012-12-06 10:40:22

.. thanks so much for getting back!  Sorry for incomplete info, but both Line6 (in fact all Mics) are using XL connectors.. I did in fact try alternative cables, but no improvement.  However.. its likely these are just "general" XL cables... and I need to seek a special "mic lead" ?? Well, its something to try!

I will post back my results! .. in the mean time - any other suggestions most welcome!

John



Re: Line 6 XD-V35 loud buzzing help needed!
by RonMarton on 2012-12-06 10:59:58

The actual wiring of those cables would be the only issue here, John.

A simple continuity check of "pin 1 to 1, 2 to 2 and 3 to 3" would absolutely eliminate this as a source of the problem, but I'd be very surprised to find that any half-decent "off the shelf" XL mic cable was giving you this kind of grief.

Which makes me think we should be looking elsewhere ...and a possible fault in the newer of your Line 6 "wall wart" power supplies would be my next suspect.

As the fault only exists when you connect the V35, try running just your older and trouble-free V55 (by itself) from the newer V35's wall wart.

If it now buzzes, that's the answer, meaning that just the wall wart will need replacing, under warranty with any luck.



Re: Line 6 XD-V35 loud buzzing help needed!
by Johnny4x on 2012-12-07 01:52:30

.. tried last night switching power supplies.. made no difference .  Again though, you have sparked another theory... it looks like the power supplies are not earthed.. I'm guessing that could be the problem, but there is no obvious way of earthing the units.... if I can find a more robust and earthed 9v supply somewhere - ill try that! ... arrrgggg.....

Cheers Ron..



Re: Line 6 XD-V35 loud buzzing help needed!
by RonMarton on 2012-12-07 04:07:16

No need to mess with alternative power supplies, John...

Your swap has absolutely cleared them of any involvement.

(It was always going to be a long shot anyway, triggered by my experience with one such faulty switched-mode plug-pack that was superimposing a massive mains-frequency ripple onto what was meant to be its smooth d.c. output.)

Incidentally, to answer your query, there's no way you should ever defeat their lack of an earth pin by adding a "ground" or "earth" to any part of a system that features the sort of "fully floating" powering that's deliberately engineered into XD-V systems.

As I find it almost unthinkable that a new XD-V35 receiver should exhibit these symptoms as a fault, I'd suggest a "one component at a time" check, if you'll just bear with me.

That the problem only arises with phantom applied (and given that you've already tried a variety of XL cables) strongly indicates that it originates from some sort of "mis-connection" between the output of some device and its connection to your mixer.

Start with nothing at all connected to your mixer's inputs, but with its phantom power switched on.

If the buzz then returns on plugging in ONLY the XD-V35 receiver by itself, then I'm afraid your receiver does have an internal fault that will require attention (...warranty?) from Line 6, possibly via the "Contact Us" link at the bottom of this page.

I'm betting that it doesn't...

Which would lead us to methodically add your sources (subsequently powered and switched on) to your mixer inputs, but only one at a time, ...until the device that's actually causing the racket turns up.

The most likely culprits are unbalanced sources such as iPods, tablets, computers, samplers, sequencers and/or other replay devices connected via jacks or RCA plugs.

It's frequently the case that such an unbalanced device works really sweetly for years, ...right up until another power supply (such as for your latest radio mic) arrives and (as luck would have it) is physically positioned at the one spot in the entire universe that guarantees the perfect induction of mains frequency into the unbalanced device's cable to the mixer.

Aaaargh!!!!

The good news is that this type of problem is fairly easily solved by either

  1. Simple re-arrangement of the device's physical location, or
  2. Converting the offending device to being "pseudo balanced", by wiring its signal "hot" (tip) to pin 2 and signal "cold" (sleeve or shield) to pin 3 of an XL male connector (with nothing wired or "shorted" to pin 1) ...and running it into a suitably attenuated mic input.

Here's hoping.



Re: Line 6 XD-V35 loud buzzing help needed!
by Johnny4x on 2012-12-07 06:14:19

All understood!  - can't thank you enough for taking the time to reply.

I'll be back down at the Hall (where all the equipment is) tomorrow - and will take the methodical approach - wise words indeed.. Hoping I can report back with good result!

Very best

John



Re: Line 6 XD-V35 loud buzzing help needed!
by dboomer on 2012-12-07 12:48:06

Hi John

That's a very curious problem.  I suspect that your mic cables may have "pin 1" connected to the "shell".  Can you measure with an ohmmeter from the shell to pin 1.  This should give a very high ohm reading (in the millions of ohms).  If it doesn't then there is a problem.  Open up the connector and you should see a wire running from pin 1 to a u shaped lug on the top of the connector where the screw goes in.  If it's there cut it.

Ron's idea of lifting pin 1 altogether should work as well but it's my second choice.

You don't need to worry about the power supply having an earth ground.  It's designed to operate this way.  It finds a ground through the audio connection (unless you use Ron's method   )    



Re: Line 6 XD-V35 loud buzzing help needed!
by RonMarton on 2012-12-07 13:11:00

Whoa! Hold up there, Gents...

Heartfelt apologies for not making it plain enough.

Just to be absolutely clear about this...

There's absolutely NO way I'd endorse the connection of any XD-V (or other balanced output equipped) receiver via the "pseudo-balanced" pin 2 & 3 XL adapter cable that I've suggested solely as a possible solution to buzz and/or hum emanating from other RCA or jack-plugged external sources.

I'd also forgotten about the "rogue" (problem creating) XL connectors and cables that used to be supplied with the offending removable link that Don's so helpfully pointed to.

(I throw myself before the mercy of the Court, Your Honour, on the grounds that I've relied exclusively on Neutrik XL connectors for the last three decades or so.)   



Re: Line 6 XD-V35 loud buzzing help needed!
by Johnny4x on 2012-12-12 01:54:48

Hey Guys! just to say, I havn't dropped the ball on this, we in the process of 'elimination' - but the audio desk gets used quite a lot, and opportunities are few!  No luck yet, but I will get quality time with this on Sunday... and will report back!

Cheers!!



Re: Line 6 XD-V35 loud buzzing help needed!
by Johnny4x on 2012-12-17 09:17:10

.. haven't managed to pull the mixing desk to bits yet (sigh) but interestingly - one thing which saved our skin has been - we discovered if we plug the XD-V35 into our "DI" box - then from there into the mixing desk, buzzing is gone! ... erk ... more info soon I hope!

John



Re: Line 6 XD-V35 loud buzzing help needed!
by RonMarton on 2012-12-17 10:06:42

Great "clue", John...

The DI has effectively isolated a rogue "signal earth to chassis earth" connection that we're now almost certain exists somewhere in your wiring of the V35 receiver to the desk.

The dreaded "earth loop" strikes again, exactly as Don and I feared.

While the DI is an effective temporary "work-around", I'm sure you'd rather not have it doing just this, so now we're looking for a short-circuit from a cable's earth to one of its signal "legs" (being those wired to pin 2 or pin 3 of the XLs in question) ...and in the event that no problematic "link" or "short" is actually visible inside the connectors themselves, maybe you have a cable that's been "spiked" or punctured, creating such a short-circuit somewhere along its length.

Using the "Ω" setting of a multitester (as Don's already suggested) is one way of quickly identifying the culprit, but if you don't have access to one of those, compare the sound of a phantom powered mic that delivers a nice "full and fat" sound via its own cable and desk channel with how it sounds connected via the V35's cable with the V35's "suspect" cable re-patched to that "good" mics input.

Faulty cabling will yield a lower-level and "thin" (lacking bass) sound from that "good" mic and input channel.

Happy hunting.



Re: Line 6 XD-V35 loud buzzing help needed!
by RonMarton on 2012-12-17 11:03:09

Just had a thought on an entirely different tack, John...

Is there, by any chance, an intermediate "mic point allocation" patch-panel in your hall, somewhere between the perfomance area and your mixer's position ?



Re: Line 6 XD-V35 loud buzzing help needed!
by Johnny4x on 2012-12-17 12:18:46

Brilliant Ron! tones to go on there!! I do have my work cut out eh? ...

I feel good about this possible solution because I would say, that most of the cables could have been around for years.. now I know they shouldn't deteriorate, but its possible certain 'types' of cable have been mixed with others .. or.. I could be talking jibberish... in any case, cable checking it is!

John



Re: Line 6 XD-V35 loud buzzing help needed!
by Johnny4x on 2012-12-17 12:23:07

hmmm "mic point allocation"? well.. (I should really take a photo) all the wired mics from the stage area plug into a Peavy mixer, then the Peavy mixer plugs into another mixer which the radio mics plug into (can't think of the make) ... is that what you are thinking Ron?

J



Re: Line 6 XD-V35 loud buzzing help needed!
by RonMarton on 2012-12-18 00:16:57

"Kinda Sorta", John...

I was really "fishing" for a better overview of your set-up, as I've encountered a staggering variety of different earth-loop "accidents waiting to happen" in the venues I've worked over the last forty years or so.

One that's cropped up repeatedly has been permanent internal wiring that passes via a plug/socket arrangement (known as a "patch bay") that allows a multitude of lines from different places (many more than can be simultaneously handled) to be patched for management via a given control room or desk.

You'll have no trouble imagining the havoc wrought there through the accidental incorrect use of patch leads, particularly given that itinerant users are frequently totally unaware of even the existence of such patch bays.

Any information is "gold" as far as helping from this distance and your last note has given us a much better "image" to work with.

I'm guessing from it that the Peavey is "upstream" of the radio mic mixer that would be the "main", only because the convenience of wireless gear means it's generally allocated more work than points cabled on the stage. Whether "upstream" or "downstream", the fact that the problem only occurs with one particular receiver and can be "cured" with a DI would seem to clear the entire mixer arrangement.

Moving on, ...you're right when you say that cables "shouldn't deteriorate". Properly cared for, indeed they shouldn't.

...HOWEVER...

...Sets, kit, carpentry, nails, "grabber screws" and impatient personnel are all capable of inducing invisible punctures, fractures and/or "shorts", particularly under the pressure of a rapid "bump-out". (Pretty much as you implied.)

Thinking ahead, in the (what I'm currently thinking is not very likely) event that all of your cables test OK, we'll then need to obtain a fuller "image" of where your receivers physically "sit" and the details of exactly how they're cabled, not only for signal and power, but also taking into account any antenna distribution or other electronic "stuff" that could possibly be affecting your XD-V35 receiver. 

The last one of those (other antennae and "stuff") is one we haven't addresssed at all, but it's not entirely out of the question that something rotten's being induced that way.

(Just a quick one, maybe before you test every cable in the place. The V35 receiver's not actually sitting on top of another electronic component's mains input is it ? ...I once had a DI freakishly "null out" hum induced like that, but only because of a truly weird physical relationship between all three items involved.)

I believe that we'll need to clear all of those hurdles before we can revert our suspicion to your individual XD-V35 unit.



Re: Line 6 XD-V35 loud buzzing help needed!
by dboomer on 2012-12-18 08:39:47

I'm still waiting for an answer to my question regarding the "shell" being connected to "pin 1".

btw ... we tested V35's plugged into 3 different mixers here in the lab yesterday just to re-confirm that applying phantom power to its output doesn't cause any hum.  It didn't.



Re: Line 6 XD-V35 loud buzzing help needed!
by Johnny4x on 2012-12-18 08:51:41

..arrgg! its coming! sorry for no answer to this yet, the reason is, we are all trying the best we can, but none of us are terribly technical, and turns out, none of us own a multi meter... Its a small hurdle - but I'm on the case! 

Having said that, I could just sacrifice a cable for the sake of testing.. I would just cut/remove Pin 1 ... simply to see what happens.  Right - I'll try that!!

J



Re: Line 6 XD-V35 loud buzzing help needed!
by dboomer on 2012-12-18 12:04:54

Hey Johnny

No chopping necessary.  You should be able to unscrew the shell from the XLR and physically see if pin 1 is connected to anything other than its respective wire.

If it is just cut that connection and try it again but don't cut the pin 1 wire (well just yet).



Re: Line 6 XD-V35 loud buzzing help needed!
by RonMarton on 2012-12-18 12:23:43

I think that's a GREAT idea, John...

...Before you go around checking every cable in the place.

You will, however, need to address both the male and female connectors of your "test" cable, but, as Don says, there's no need to remove pin 1.

(Just as well, really, because any halfway decent connector will have robust pins that are very firmly embedded.)

Sorry for not doing this earlier, but here's a link to the best, briefest and most clearly illustrated guide I've yet seen for explaining what Don and I are on about.

It contains a very emphatic explanation of the need to avoid pin 1 to chassis shorts.

http://producingforaliving.blogspot.com.au/2010/09/microphone-cable-wiring-101-connecting.html



Re: Line 6 XD-V35 loud buzzing help needed!
by dboomer on 2012-12-18 14:39:17

Wow Ron ... that's some service ...!

For some reason everytime I find a Chinese made cable they do connect pin 1 to ground.  In most caases it doesn't cause a problem, but I've found it does cause some problems with some mixers and phantom power.



Re: Line 6 XD-V35 loud buzzing help needed!
by RonMarton on 2012-12-18 16:28:48

Just so, Don...

But (regrettably) the malady isn't confined to the Orient.

My experience of cheap "ready-mades" tallies with both yours and the one Alan Hardiman's illustrated in the blog I've linked above.

Not only that, but I've found that the number of earthing "myths" out there almost exceeds the number of road crew personnel !

For the benefit of readers seeking clues from this conversation in respect of its "buzz" and "buzzing" tags, one particular anomaly (that took us an eternity to track down) arose from the use of a Canare dual-sexed XL stage box, (superb hardware) twenty of which we'd ordered pre-wired from a highly reputable pro audio supplier.

It turned out that whoever did the actual wiring went to a huge effort to ensure that a "buss bar" interconnected all of the number 1 pins, ...as well as interconnecting each and every "spare" pin of the single multi-way connnectors that would attach to the respective "spare" conductors of the ten superb Canare star-quad multicore cables we'd ordered with the stage boxes.

That was in addition to the "break out" from each of the star-quad cables' discrete earths being beautifully and dutifully soldered to its correct and separate pin 1.

(It turned out that there are still some so-called "textbooks" out there that encourage exactly this form of vandalism.)

The result: Some gigs entirely buzz-free, but with some gigs perplexingly requiring a bewildering array of earth-lifting, transformer isolation and DI arrangements for any clean audio to eventually be obtained.

THE MORAL OF THE STORY:

ALWAYS keep every "pin 1" separate from any other termination whenever standard 3-pin XL connectors are employed for audio, without exception, ...unless (of course) you're seeking a particularly devious form of revenge on the recipient/s of those connectors.



Re: Line 6 XD-V35 loud buzzing help needed!
by Johnny4x on 2012-12-19 09:36:16

oh my word... I haven't a clue what I'm doing.. but you guys are sooo helpful - I do wish this had just worked out the box!

Anyways, I went over to the hall this afternoon, and chose a cable to butcher.. I opened it up, and saw an "earth" looking wire ... so cut it.  Now I have re-read the post here.. and I'm not entirely sure thats what I was meant to do..

Plugged the unit back in - but still buzzed. 

I even went to Maplin today (electronics store) and spoke to a knowledgeable guy there.. he told me most of what you guys are saying, but also suggested that the unit just didn't like Phantom Power (the mixing desk is a "Spirit" and phantom power is not per socket but on/off for the whole desk)

In addition, I pulled every input out of the desk today, and the v35 still buzzed when the only unit plugged in - but that was with my cut wire.. I need to do that again with a regular xlr, will get back re that!

Please don't lose patience! I feel I have more 'twiddling' I can do - I need to try moving the v35 away from the desk etc... so maybe there is still hope.

Pic attached of butchered cable (cut at both ends)

Arrg!

John

photo.JPG



Re: Line 6 XD-V35 loud buzzing help needed!
by RonMarton on 2012-12-19 10:43:52

Sorry John, for not being absolutely clear...

"Earth-lifting" (which shouldn't be necessary here) would require that the "shield" (the bare copper you've correctly identified) remain attached at the female (receiver output) end of the cable, only being cut to prevent "double-connection" (an "earth loop") to both the mixer's and the receiver's chassis.

What you've done is to convert your cable into a totally unshielded pair that's almost guaranteed to buzz,

...HOWEVER...

It looks very much as though the connector pictured above has the majority of its remaining (bare copper) shield wire hanging off the silver metal of its external "chassis", ...meaning that we now have pictorial evidence that it was, almost certainly, one of the earth-loop creators we've been looking for !!! 

(Naturally, if all your cables are similarly constructed, they're all potential sources of similar problems with any gear.)

The correct "fix" involves configuring both ends of the cable so that the cable's bare copper shield can only come into contact with pin 1 and NO other metal whatsoever.

The pin 1 connection should be soldered as solidly as the other two pins, the normal technique being to reduce its length so that it's the shortest wire of the three, the reduction in length being for the sole purpose of ensuring that it absolutely cannot contact any metal other than its "own" pin 1.

An easier retrofit (for the XL connectors at both ends of your existing cables) would involve a really sharp set of side-cutters being used to "clean out" all of the excess copper shield that's connected to the chassis (flat metal) while leaving it soldered exclusively to pin 1 ...and then using a small strip of electrical insulation tape to fully insulate all of the bare copper that you've left attached to that pin 1.

Having done all that, your cables will (at long last) be CORRECTLY terminated such that they can successfully operate all of the gear in your inventory, whereas a special "earth-lifted" cable would not work with powered microphones.

As for the "knowledgeable guy" at Maplin, (trust me) ...he ain't.

Phantom power is so named because balanced connections (such as the XL male on the back of your receiver) can't "see" it. It should have NO effect whatsoever, PROVIDED the balanced wiring is correctly terminated...

...As you are just about to ensure.



Re: Line 6 XD-V35 loud buzzing help needed!
by dboomer on 2012-12-19 11:00:22

Hey John

Just think how smart you'll be in the future once you get this all figured out

My guess is that connector connects the ground wire (which you do need) to the shell (which shouldn't happen).

Do you have a cable that is made with real Switchcraft or Neutrik connectors?

Have you tried it in a different mixer?



Re: Line 6 XD-V35 loud buzzing help needed!
by RonMarton on 2012-12-19 11:16:47

Don's note has just prompted another thought, John.

Once you've completed a succesful test with a correctly terminated cable ...and given that you say the cables have been around for a long while, is there any way you could save yourself hours of fiddly work by investing in a few good cables, such as this one ?

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/68098-REG/Audio_Technica_AT8314_20_3_pin_XLR_Male_to.html

They're not a huge capital investment and it is, after all, a fair bet that quite a few of your existing ones would have wear-related problems just waiting to "bite".



Re: Line 6 XD-V35 loud buzzing help needed!
by Johnny4x on 2012-12-19 12:27:39

Ron I laughed out loud at your "knowledgeable guy" comment! and MANY thanks for the comprehensive answer!

RIGHT - I think I have it now.. and am back on board.  I can't get to the hall until Friday - so will report back then! .. and Don, I can't WAIT to feel smart!!!  I would have to check re connector brands.. and, no I haven't tried a different mixer on its own... it would be quite a big job .. but I take your point.. something to try..

Cheers guys!!



Re: Line 6 XD-V35 loud buzzing help needed!
by Johnny4x on 2012-12-19 12:30:40

Im going to keep that link Ron thanks! .... If we nail the problem as being this ground loop thing, I suspect ALL our cable will have the same issue... we may need (over a period of time/money) to replace the lot ... sigh....

John



Re: Line 6 XD-V35 loud buzzing help needed!
by RonMarton on 2012-12-19 12:40:45

I may have been a bit harsh on "Mr Maplin", John...

He's probably very knowledgeable in other respects !

You should also trust me when I say that none of us in Audio ever actually get to feeling smart as

  1. There's always more to learn and
  2. We all remember starting out exactly as you're doing.

The good news is that I'm feeling very confident that a proper XL cable will effect a cure.

Here's another reasonably priced alternative which features my favourite (Neutrik) connectors:

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/XLR15



Re: Line 6 XD-V35 loud buzzing help needed!
by Johnny4x on 2012-12-19 14:09:41

excellent! thanks Ron!



Re: Line 6 XD-V35 loud buzzing help needed!
by RonMarton on 2012-12-19 14:15:57

If it's indeed resolved, "hats off" to the amazing Don Boomer...

...Who picked the exact problem right away !



Re: Line 6 XD-V35 loud buzzing help needed!
by Johnny4x on 2012-12-22 04:05:32

well... keep yer hats on! I'm not kidding, one day someone will make a comedy TV series out of this... TWO of us have hacked away at a couple of cables now, and cannot get to the pins/bits to solder without breaking other connections etc... the plastic housings are molded over the pins, making them sooooo hard to get to.  We have given up - and are going to buy a new cable of the spec you sent links of Ron.

Of course - I cannot find a retailer in the UK selling those exact cables... so will be heading off after the holidays to a specialist in Edinburgh... please wish me luck!!

Thanks so much to you both so far! and have a FANTASTIC holiday!!



Re: Line 6 XD-V35 loud buzzing help needed!
by Reason413 on 2012-12-22 07:21:25

Not to be a party pooper, But I too have the same probem with this unit... It does not like Phantom Power whatsoever, Same buzz in it that Johnny mentioned.

  The Cables I use are from Monoprice and I have about 20 others.. tried them ALL... same thing... I dont have any problems with anything else when it comes to phantom power.. I dont think these units were made with Phantom power in mind at all,  ( just my opinion )   For me, thats ok... I dont use any wired condenser mics anymore since I got this unit...   now, I will ask the pro's here....  Is it possible that the buzzing comes from the fact that the reviever unit or the XD35 is not grounded (2 prong plug)  where it would be grounded with a 3 prong plug ??



Re: Line 6 XD-V35 loud buzzing help needed!
by dboomer on 2012-12-22 09:06:25

Those Monoproce cables have the shell tied to pin 1.  For some reason that is very typical with chinese cables.  Cables wired to AES standards will work fine.

The fact that the power supply does not have a ground wire is not a problem.  The power supply is designed to run that way.  Think of is as a battery (which also doesn't have a ground reference).



Re: Line 6 XD-V35 loud buzzing help needed!
by RonMarton on 2012-12-22 12:18:51

Two pieces of good news, John !

  1. The holidays are great and
  2. You don't need "those exact cables", indeed well-priced ones can be sent to your door from (among others) either of these:

http://www.studiospares.com/leads-xlr/xlr-male-female-5m-lead-neutrik-china/invt/590140/

http://www.thomann.de/gb/cordial_cam6bk.htm

I've only included the genuine Neutriks on rugged cable from Thomann to give a price comparison. I've found that the "Yongsheng" Ningbo Neutriks, when assembled "Studiospares-style", (i.e. no spurious pin 1 to chassis shorting) work really well, as you'll see from other UK users' reviews on their site.

The other Chinese-made "budget" leads in their catalogue are indeed a few quid cheaper, but you risk being back where you started!

An online order placed today will probably be at your place before New Years Day, so (with any luck) a successful outcome may be part of your Happy Hogmanay.

Hae a wee malt or two for me, eh Laddie !

Slainte!



Re: Line 6 XD-V35 loud buzzing help needed!
by RonMarton on 2012-12-22 12:49:52

AARGH !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sorry, Reason413, ...but your post perpetuates exactly the sort of earthing "myth" I was talking about earlier in this discussion and stands as a shining example of precisely the sort of "audio voodoo" that needs to be stamped out.

In any case, what better Season is there for a good burning at the stake?

(Ahem...)

As Don's so patiently pointed out yet again, your misunderstanding arises from yet more of those damn cables with the sort of dodgy wiring and assembly that I hadn't encountered for years, ...right up until this post, in fact.

Be assured that (as Don and I have indicated earlier) it remains a demonstrable and incontrovertible FACT that no audio equipment with a balanced output needs to "like" phantom powering, the very name of which is testimony to its irrelevance when correctly wired.




Re: Line 6 XD-V35 loud buzzing help needed!
by Reason413 on 2012-12-22 17:16:14

I will say Ron, the Monoprice cables are very well put together and are in fact wired correctly.... I have verified this... I also get the buzzing on Monster Cables as well as Cables I built myself...  are we still blaming the cables??  before you answer... I have an old Samson wireless unit and using the same cables, get no buzz from Phantom Power....



Re: Line 6 XD-V35 loud buzzing help needed!
by RonMarton on 2012-12-22 17:54:53

Read this first:

http://producingforaliving.blogspot.com.au/2010/09/microphone-cable-wiring-101-connecting.html

Different balanced-output audio gear exhibits different earthing schemes.

(As Don Boomer has been at pains to point out, Line 6 have opted for a "fully floating mains-earth-independent" system that's analagous to being run from batteries.)

It is therefore to be expected that, when applying the "positive" side of 48v DC "phantom" power equally to pins 2 & 3, with its "negative" side being carried by pin 1, any cabling that INCORRECTLY (I'll say it again, "INCORRECTLY" ...as confirmed by, among others, no lesser bodies than the Audio Engineering Society and the International Standards Organisation) attaches the negative side to the chassis in addition to its correct pin 1 destination, will draw a response (or not) that's entirely dependent on the earthing scheme of the actual equipment in question.

So the good old Samson's trouble-free operation is indeed irrelevant ...and...

...we're FAR from being alone in "still blaming the cables".



Re: Line 6 XD-V35 loud buzzing help needed!
by Reason413 on 2012-12-22 18:36:43

So why is it that my condenser mic has no issues with the cables wired this way?



Re: Line 6 XD-V35 loud buzzing help needed!
by RonMarton on 2012-12-22 18:54:31

Great question !

Because, with nearly all microphones, (powered or not) their case is, in fact, already connected connected to pin 1 as a "shield" that keeps stray RF from affecting the mic's internal circuitry.

That's an entirely different application from connecting the output of another device that accepts external power while also sending signal via cables that have "phantom" DC applied to them.

You've put your finger on the fundamental root cause of the misunderstanding that gave rise to some mic cables being supplied with the very incorrect wiring we're talking about. Those cables will work very well with microphones of all types, but ONLY with microphones.

Accordingly, the only way to have an inventory of XL cables that will satisfactorily run all balanced audio gear is to "seek and destroy" any "pin 1 to case" connections in them.

May the force be with all who are on that noble mission !



Re: Line 6 XD-V35 loud buzzing help needed!
by dboomer on 2012-12-23 08:42:47

What mixer are you having the issue with?



Re: Line 6 XD-V35 loud buzzing help needed!
by Reason413 on 2012-12-24 08:18:41

so what brand of cable do you recommend using with the Line 6 reciever ?



Re: Line 6 XD-V35 loud buzzing help needed!
by RonMarton on 2012-12-24 11:06:21

Any reputable "brand" should work just fine, as reputable manufacturers and suppliers should all be following the AES, ISO, EN and US standards for the connection of balanced audio.

It's important to remember that these specifications don't just address the wiring from Line 6 receiver outputs, but are intended to eliminate potential connection anomalies from all sorts of connection and/or cable extension situations.

Earlier in this discussion, I supplied two examples from each side of "the pond", but there are many more out there.

Here are those links again, but they link to exactly that, "examples":

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/68098-REG/Audio_Technica_AT8314_20_3_pin_XLR_Male_to.html

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/XLR15

http://www.studiospares.com/leads-xlr/xlr-male-female-5m-lead-neutrik-china/invt/590140/

http://www.thomann.de/gb/cordial_cam6bk.htm

I've also two further suggestions for you:

  1. Carefully read this discussion through, "from the top" ...and then
  2. Have a great Festive Break.


Re: Line 6 XD-V35 loud buzzing help needed!
by sdevino on 2012-12-24 13:10:23

Hi Guys,

I need to pipe in here. Based on this posting I asked our QA guys to grab a couple of fresh XD-V35 Production units and test them out on various mixers we have around with phantom on and off. We did not use any special cable or hookups but none of them exhibited the buzzing issue. So I suspect the OP may have a defective unit. I suggest contacting the store or customer support and letting them take care of the situation.

I am the Product Managerfor Wireless at Line 6, so tell them Steve sent you.

Thanks and sorry you are having this experience. We should be able to rectify it if you can contact CS. 

Happy Holidays!

Steve Devino



Re: Line 6 XD-V35 loud buzzing help needed!
by RonMarton on 2012-12-24 17:01:48

"In the finest traditions of the Service", Steve...

...Exactly as I've come to expect from Line 6 !

I am, however, wondering if Line 6's Quality Assurance section actually has any of the cheap and nasty "pin 1 and chassis-wired" cables in its inventory?

Given that I hadn't struck one for years, I was curious enough to "create" one before packing for a Seasonal gig yesterday and ...guess what?

Using it and applying 48v phantom power via the "global" switch on a variety of small mixers yielded textbook earth loop buzzing when it was connected to the output of any of my randomly-selected XD-V70 receivers, ...but only from some of those mixers.

I guess the most revealing analysis was provided by my tiny and "bulletproof" Sound Devices MixPre D, (a portable field mixer with comprehensive facilities) which would not ever yield buzzing from my receivers when just "on its own" being powered by its internal AA batteries.

When, however,

  1. Connected to some mains powered "downstream" systems ...AND
  2. It also had its Sound Devices "universal" mains supply energised and connected to its Hirose "Ext Power" connector,

would yield buzz on applying phantom to my "freshly butchered and dual-earthed" XL cable, (but only with some of those downstream devices) regardless of whether its front-panel "Power Selector" switch had it running from its internal AAs or external power.

Finally, here's hoping Santa is as good to you and yours as he's just been to me...

All the very best (and a hearty "Ho, Ho, Ho !") to all from Down Under.



Re: Line 6 XD-V35 loud buzzing help needed!
by Johnny4x on 2013-01-14 06:42:03

Hello folks! happy new year!  Ive been quiet for a bit whilst we try to try out cables etc.. so heres my report!

We bought two brand new XLR cables one from an electronics store, and one from a music store (was an accident, but thats another story) We have a guy here who works in the tech dept of a local Hospital.. he took the new cables to work to test, and assured us there were no "earth to casing" problems.  We brought the cables back to the hall and plugged in - wait for it... same problem.  Sigh... I think at the end of the day, there may be a fault with the unit.  I'm not sure where the unit goes back to now.. prob Line6 as I don't think the store will accept the return after so much time.. I'll mail Line6 later today...

Thank you all for your enthusiastic help!! I will post again with any progress I have!

John



Re: Line 6 XD-V35 loud buzzing help needed!
by RonMarton on 2013-01-14 07:11:44

Just a quick one, John...

...As Don Boomer asked a while ago: "Have you tried it in a different mixer?" (Such as in a music shop...?)

Here's hoping the (rapidly advancing) New Year brings you nothing but the best.



Re: Line 6 XD-V35 loud buzzing help needed!
by Johnny4x on 2013-01-14 07:26:04

HI Ron! no, we haven't been able to try another mixer...  the general consensus is that because all our other equipment works fine (including the Audio Technica radio mics) the Line6 mic is just proving to be too much trouble ..

At the end of the day, the device may not be faulty! - but I have to entertain that possibility now, even if its just to rule out a problem with the unit...

hey ho!



Re: Line 6 XD-V35 loud buzzing help needed!
by RonMarton on 2013-01-14 07:31:25

Thanks for the speedy response, John and for easing my curiosity.

Here's hoping a "bench test" reveals more.



Re: Line 6 XD-V35 loud buzzing help needed!
by sdevino on 2013-01-14 08:36:14

As I said last week, I think your unit is defective. I am going to ask CS to contact you.

Steve

Product Line Manager Live Sound and Wireless.



Re: Line 6 XD-V35 loud buzzing help needed!
by Johnny4x on 2013-01-14 09:20:30

that would be perfect! Thanks a lot Steve - any help greatly appreciated!

John




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