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HD300 stereo delay - uneven left and right volumes
by radimere on 2013-01-07 11:14:20

I've been fooling around with the stereo delay effect, and I noticed that the left and right channels have asymmetrical delay trails. Even if both channels are set to have the same delay times and the same feedback level, the right channel is slightly louder fading out, and has a few more repeats. Is this a quirk, similar to the analog chorus effect, which is also asymmetrical?

I'm using a Soldano clean model with the default cab and mic as a basis for the patch, and listening to the output through reference headphones. The switch at the back of the POD  is set to "studio."

The ping-pong delay exhibits no such behavior—let and right channels trail off at the same time.



Re: HD300 stereo delay - uneven left and right volumes
by CairnsFella on 2013-01-07 16:29:01

I dont really get what the question is? Are you asking if this is unique to your HD (i.e. is a fault ?) .

I'd be interested in checking this out when I get home, though I would imagine what you are experiencing is correct.

I have another old fx/modelling unit that does a very simial thing with stereo fx. In fact probably more so, as some basically route the original signal through one channel and the modulated signal through the other. This sounded a little odd initially, and more and more odd the more I focussed on it. In reality though, once I got over it I stopped noticing. It would probably be fairly bad isolated in headphones, but at a reasonable listening distance from my PA speakers it sounds pretty good over the stereo field.



Re: HD300 stereo delay - uneven left and right volumes
by radimere on 2013-01-07 19:14:13

Yup, I'm asking whether it's a fault (and one that's likely to escalate into other faults), since I see no reason why an effect that hasn't been faithfully modeled after a physical device should not be symmetrical. And, of course, since it's modeled and there are no discrete electronic components that could be imbalanced and cause the lopsided panning.

I do get what you're saying about stage volumes rendering the discrepancy in volumes negligible. But I can see some recording applications where it could be a problem, especially at exaggerated dry/wet mix levels.



Re: HD300 stereo delay - uneven left and right volumes
by radimere on 2013-01-08 03:01:45

Hopefully someone from Line6 will chime in and confirm whether this quirk is intentional.



Re: HD300 stereo delay - uneven left and right volumes
by Astaroth_CY on 2013-01-08 12:55:46

I've seen similar behavior with any time-dependent parameter as a result of editing the tone in HD Edit on my computer as opposed to directly on the unit. Despite saving a tone with the same timing/feedback on either channel, and testing it to make sure it was good, after switching away and switching back to the tone it would be all out of whack. This is not an issue if you edit the tone right on the Pod without being connected via USB. Just go in and tweak the relevant parameters (even if they appear the same, just change them to something else and back), save the tone, switch away and then switch back to it. Please try doing that and report back.



Re: HD300 stereo delay - uneven left and right volumes
by CairnsFella on 2013-01-08 17:17:50

.

radimere wrote:

..... But I can see some recording applications where it could be a problem, especially at exaggerated dry/wet mix levels.

Fair point.

radimere wrote:

Hopefully someone from Line6 will chime in and confirm whether this quirk is intentional.

But good luck with that.

Astaroth's point is an interesting one. I am half happy that he advises of a workaround, should I find myself wanting to resolve a similar issue, but half disspointed as this seems to identify a 'bug'. Another thing for me to try for myself when I get home.

(It's a double edged sword reading the forums sometimes. For all the great help and tips I get, the occassional negative scenario that I may never have identified myself does occassionally arise, and I wish I headnt read about it !)



Re: HD300 stereo delay - uneven left and right volumes
by CairnsFella on 2013-01-08 23:18:56

OK.. so I tried this out for myself (on HD500).

Please bear with me as I haven't really delved into the stereo delay before.

When I first added the effect I immediately noticed the phenomenon you detailed, but then also noticed I had unbalanced feedback settings. I evened them up to 50 each on HD edit, but still got the issue of the right channel repeats being louder and lasting longer than the left.

I then edited the parameters on the unit itself - essentially mucking up the settings then returning to what I had done in HD500 edit ( in terms of feedback), however I still experienced the issue you detailed.

However, in both cases I had differing sync time settings. Now I dont know if the settings are 'exactly' the same in the 300, but with these parameters adjusted so they were the same, and contrary to your findings, I did achieve an even decay (though this caused the repeats to be in sync which essentially removes the sensation of the effect being stereo (though I believe it IS still stereo, but just stereo of the same thing)).

Then I changed the left and right sync to 1/4 (3) and 1/4 respectively, which returned me to the same position as I started, but when I swapped the sync settings (i.e. to 1/4 and and 1/4 (3) the longer/louder repeats switched sides!

I then scrolled though a variety of sync times and checked out the difference this made (other than to the sync time itself).

It may seem as though I am now stating the obvious, but as a result of all this I believe the number of repeats are directly linked to the amount of feedback (though perhaps with some variation dependant upon input levels etc, but for the sake of clarity the following is based upon the my settings YMMV). So for example, if I set L sync to whole and R sync to 64 with 50 feedback for both channels, with my input levels, Left will repeat around four times, but take four whole notes to decay, but R, whilst also repeating 4 times (or so is my belief based upon trying out a number of settings as I cannot actually distinguish the repeats at this setting) only takes 4/64ths.

So, my findings do seem to be in conflict with your own given our findings with 'symmetrical' settings, so perhaps you are experiencing a problem BUT I would emphasise that with differing sync times the trails do vary and need to be evened up with the feedback controls.

Perhaps if anyone else has a chance to check this you can get a more conclusive sample size (though I would say I am certain of the results I am getting).

Edit.

Having given this a little more thought. The variation available with the ping pong delay (spread and offset) should really cover you for the times you require something a little more balanced.... though I dont wish to detract from the possibility that you have a problem if your stereo delay is not balanced even when you have identical settings for each channel.



Re: HD300 stereo delay - uneven left and right volumes
by radimere on 2013-01-09 05:13:58

@Astaroth_CY thanks! However, I do all of my editing on the unit itself. Hooking it up to the Mac is too much of a hassle most of the time. I'll probably only do that to rename patches, and to record, of course.

@CairnsFella thank you for taking the time to test this out. I swear, this is the last time I'm going to try to split hairs with the effects, as it really gets in the way of my playing and practice! More options, more problems.

Alas, the parameter list in the HD300 does not include sync time (unless it's a deep-editable parameter accessible only through the Line6 Edit interface). If it defaults to uneven times, as your HD500 experience suggests, then the asymmetry is unavoidable for HD300 owners. I'll probably just reduce the left channel feedback to compensate.

In an ideal world, a Line6 rep would be here to answer questions, but I guess that's too much to ask, given that even their tech support is slow to respond. A shame, really. Addressing the concerns of current customers ensure return customers come upgrade time.



Re: HD300 stereo delay - uneven left and right volumes
by phil_m on 2013-01-09 06:13:30

By "sync time" he just means the delay time parameter. There's no additional parameters for the stereo delay on the HD500 than for the one on the HD300.



Re: HD300 stereo delay - uneven left and right volumes
by radimere on 2013-01-09 06:19:53

Thanks for the clarification, @phil_m! I got confused because @CairnsFella quoted the time as note values instead of milliseconds.



Re: HD300 stereo delay - uneven left and right volumes
by phil_m on 2013-01-09 06:28:51

Ah, well, yes that is a difference that I forgot about. The HD300 and HD400 don't allow you to assign different note values to the delay times on any of the delay models.



Re: HD300 stereo delay - uneven left and right volumes
by radimere on 2013-01-09 11:54:41

Thanks to your combined help I finally found out what was "wrong". When set to follow a tap tempo, the left channel is set to what sounds like eighth notes, the right to quarter notes! This behavior cannot be overriden thanks to the "crippled" nature of the HD300 except by entering delay times in milliseconds. The delay then becomes balanced between the left and right channels.



Re: HD300 stereo delay - uneven left and right volumes
by CairnsFella on 2013-01-09 21:59:28

Glad you got it sorted.... or at least sussed.

Sorry about my causing confusion with note values... I guess I should have really tried to find out a little more regarding the HD300 before I posted... but I confess I was a little weary by that stage.



Re: HD300 stereo delay - uneven left and right volumes
by radimere on 2013-01-09 23:45:09

No worries! You quoting note values was what actually got me to realize the issue, which is, in fact, rhythm-related, not tempo-related. FWIW I had a blast of a time practicing last night. I'll try not to poke around the guts of the unit too much, it really gets in the way of playing.



Re: HD300 stereo delay - uneven left and right volumes
by CairnsFella on 2013-01-09 23:59:36

radimere wrote:

...... which is, in fact, rhythm-related, not tempo-related.

Lol,

theres me thinking I was being helpful and knowledgable.. now you have lost me entirely.

No matter.. as long as your sorted. Enjoy.



Re: HD300 stereo delay - uneven left and right volumes
by radimere on 2013-01-10 00:24:54

LOL! Ok, to clarify: if you hadn't quoted note/rhythmic values, I wouldn't have been able to solve the "issue." The left channel repeated twice as often as the right (and cannot be made to sync unless milliseconds are used instead of tap tempo), which was somewhat consistent with what you described. And since the left side exhausted its repeats faster (by spitting out delays twice as fast) the right channel lingered longer, and so was "louder" (as you also described).

See, you were being helpful and knowledgable.




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