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I think I'm gonna have to send it back...
by ivylotus on 2013-01-11 11:50:49

Well, after two USB to MIDI interface purchases (one having to be sent back), multiple calls to Line 6 tech support, and lots of effort by my dealer to get other answers, my buzz is looking pretty dead. They rolled out V2, trumpeted it on their website at least in part as an enticement to new buyers, then blew the implementation. Five things:

1) Failure to publish a list of USB to MIDI interfaces that work - in presale information: At the vrey least, give this information to dealers, because anyone who is going to buy a DT25 is going to want the option of using the new firmware, and should not be sent on a wild goose chase.To not share the information they have readily available is just obnoxious.

2) No useful documentation: The V2 release is essentially undocumented. I had to go through tech support to find out what the knobs on five models (9/15, AC15, AC30, Supro, Flip Top) do once the V2 firmware is installed. Someone here pointed out it is in the HD500 advanced user's guide. Great. And that does a DT25 buyer what good until he/she is told? The Amp Gallery is nothing but marketing copy. I know what a Hiwatt is. Tell me how your amp works.

3) Drive knob: Seemed to be nothing but a redundant volume on the Twin and Hiwatt models, for instance, but I couldn't be sure. The answer I got is that what it does depends on the amp chosen. That's the first sentence of what is probably a two paragraph proper answer, plus a chart of the 30 amp models, showing what it actually does with each.

4) Extreme volume level mismatches: This wouldn't be a huge problem in and of itself, but it is a bit of an annoyance to be experimenting, and then suddenly it's WAY LOUDER because I went from the Hiwatt to the AC15 (which is also pretty counter-intuitive). I get this is a limitation of the hardware design. I could probably work with it. But when I'm guessing at so much else and already have a sense that Line 6 couldn't care less, it becomes a sticking point. Brains are funny that way.

5) Functional use of V2: It's insane that we have to either use an iOS app (which makes no sense on about 5 levels) to get the benefits of V2, or be saved by a volunteer's (excellent) code. LIne 6 should be offering to license that program and make it available via their website. People who bought this amp and aren't HD500 users are not likely to be command line MIDI programmers.

For some people, I am sure the original DT25 was a great choice. It does sound very, very good. For others, the HD500 integration is all they need to not feel limited by the DT25 original specs. For me, I didn't want menus or LCDs. I just wanted a (more) multi-voice amp that works like an amp. They delivered much of that functionality, but with a healthy dose of doubt-inducing confusion, hoop jumps, and "your problem" mentality. I just don't know what to expect from them, and I don't want to be left holding the bag.

I haven't decided yet. Maybe I'll take the weekend. But it's disappointing. And who wants to spend money on gear in order to feel disappointed?



Re: I think I'm gonna have to send it back...
by spaceatl on 2013-01-11 19:04:58

Based on your posts I have read, moving on seems like a good idea to me...Line 6 culture and the HD/DT system doesn't seem to reach your expectations and is causing you frustration....Nothing wrong with moving on..Finding the gear that fits your wants is the important thing...good luck sir..



Re: I think I'm gonna have to send it back...
by LUGJUG12 on 2013-01-11 21:03:29

I am sorry but i just do not understand why there are some people who are having problems with this amp and are disapointed with it?It does exactly what i want it to do and lots more.  I got rid of my jcm800 2203 moddified that i had for years 17 to be exact(and said i would have it 4 ever)and my mesa dual recti road king and peavey stereo chorus which is hiding in my basement don"t tell my wife:) because i am so happy with this setup dt50 and hd500 and xt live in the loop.i also sold all my tc electronics stuff to my lead guitarist and only keep the minimum to record such as a mic preamp and sonic maximizer.people who say it does not sound like the original i say ia got this to sound better than ia was ever able to get my road king to sound and with out a power soak and with out killing my ears.does it sound the same kind of and i find better because ia can do what i whant with it . i now go to shows i play and give 1 cable xlr out to the sound guy and we are good to go bullshit fooling around with mic placement and other. i am not a pro but just a guy who plays covers every weekend with 3 different bands rock 60's and 70's rock 80's and grunge and metallica to suicidal to opeth and pantera and i even play classical with a couple of friends with this setup and am 1000% happy with it the only thing i can say negative is i do not like the cab(sorry line6) but i now use

2 genz benz g-flex cabs and i love them with this amp it has so much bass it is amazing it is like using a sub  with your amp.my mesa i always had the bass on 65% now it is 40% and it hits hard when i palm mute.I f any one wants to have poiters or such on using the hd and dt50 together i am willing to help as i think this amp doenot get enough praise on this site only the negative is here and i know this is a support forum so yes people having trouble are the ones posting here .If you need advise or settings i try to help to the best i can as i think this is 1 of the best polvalente amplie ever made the soldano and fender and ac30 is spot on and the jcm is better than the original i had to moddify and boost mine to gat it to sound like i can do with this at half the level. so iam done with my ramble( others should do the same if you are satified )and if you need help( i will try) donot be shy to ask as i might even need yours.   Leo



Re: I think I'm gonna have to send it back...
by MGblade on 2013-01-12 00:51:31

+1 Leo

buying the hd500 and dt25 is the best choise i,ve made, still stoked with it after 2 years .



Re: I think I'm gonna have to send it back...
by HwyStar on 2013-01-12 07:06:33

I've had my DT25 and extended cabinet for about a month now. I like it. I do plan on replacing the speakers and modifying the bottom cabinet to be like the top cabinet. Ported on the back and close off the front ports. I also plan on a second stack for stereo, more power and redundancy.  New tubes as well.

I do get a little tired of messing with the HD500 and the amp together but without the POD connected to it, the amp only has two channels and that's not enough.

There is no perfect amp but this setup is pretty nice!



Re: I think I'm gonna have to send it back...
by PDKTDK on 2013-01-12 12:33:58

+2

With the exception that I use a DT50 112 combo.

LOVE IT!



Re: I think I'm gonna have to send it back...
by ivylotus on 2013-01-12 13:35:12

If I were into the HD500, I imagine this would be a good amp to have. Although if you have an HD500, the DT amps are really nothing more than glorified tube power amps and speakers - a warmer, configurable replacement for an FRFR system. Fair enough. But without the HD500, I think they're too hard to use, not flexible enough, and don't justiify the price. The poor documentation set me off as well, but nobody seems to care about that.



Re: I think I'm gonna have to send it back...
by pauliusmm on 2013-01-12 14:21:35

Agree, there should be at least an option to match levels of the preamp models in the DT. It would make it useable, now they are too different to be useable live.



Re: I think I'm gonna have to send it back...
by Krontab on 2013-01-12 14:26:48

"1) Failure to publish a list of USB to MIDI interfaces that work - in presale information: At the vrey least, give this information to dealers, because anyone who is going to buy a DT25 is going to want the option of using the new firmware, and should not be sent on a wild goose chase.To not share the information they have readily available is just obnoxious."

Even if they give the info to the dealers, the dealers seldom read it. In this case MIDI is a standard communication protocol from the 1980's and they cannot predict what device your computer will work with. I have used M-audio, Roland, and an old controller from the 1980's with my DT25 without issue. The device speaks MIDI. If you are having problems implementing a MIDI port on your machine that is between you and the MIDI port vendor.

"2) No useful documentation: The V2 release is essentially undocumented. I had to go through tech support to find out what the knobs on five models (9/15, AC15, AC30, Supro, Flip Top) do once the V2 firmware is installed. Someone here pointed out it is in the HD500 advanced user's guide. Great. And that does a DT25 buyer what good until he/she is told? The Amp Gallery is nothing but marketing copy. I know what a Hiwatt is. Tell me how your amp works."

I agree, my old flextone documentation had the type of info you are looking for. This level of detail seemed to cease about 4 years ago with Line 6. They did do a good write up on the MIDI implementation.

"3) Drive knob: Seemed to be nothing but a redundant volume on the Twin and Hiwatt models, for instance, but I couldn't be sure. The answer I got is that what it does depends on the amp chosen. That's the first sentence of what is probably a two paragraph proper answer, plus a chart of the 30 amp models, showing what it actually does with each."

Again I agree, docs are all sizzle and no bacon. The user community is very helpful though.

"4) Extreme volume level mismatches: This wouldn't be a huge problem in and of itself, but it is a bit of an annoyance to be experimenting, and then suddenly it's WAY LOUDER because I went from the Hiwatt to the AC15 (which is also pretty counter-intuitive). I get this is a limitation of the hardware design. I could probably work with it. But when I'm guessing at so much else and already have a sense that Line 6 couldn't care less, it becomes a sticking point. Brains are funny that way."

This could have been implemented better or at least explained better. The issue with modeling into a tube power amp is that in order to get the power amp to react in the the desired manner it needs to be pushed or not pushed at an appropriate level by the pre-amp. This is more an issue of melding modeled pre to real power amp topology. Since they have only 4 amp topologies and 30 models there is going to be a compromise. My perspective is that the amp was designed to be able to switch from A to B on the fly with the WYSIWYG knobs and you can adjust the volume to be consistant between the two. Live switching amp models on just one of the channels would introduce your issue, but you would have to adjust the other knobs as well. I'm glad they did not sacrifice modeling accuracy in lew of volume concerns.

"5) Functional use of V2: It's insane that we have to either use an iOS app (which makes no sense on about 5 levels) to get the benefits of V2, or be saved by a volunteer's (excellent) code. LIne 6 should be offering to license that program and make it available via their website. People who bought this amp and aren't HD500 users are not likely to be command line MIDI programmers."

They could have been more inclusive, but hey did not remove function from when I bought mine a year ago. They just added function for those that wanted to buy or had bought the iOS device. The assumption that people who bought this amp aren't HD500 users is not true in all cases. It does sound like you would prefer the presetting of a POD HD unit. The amp alone is just a two channel amp with a lot of options. It was designed to compete with the Egnator Tweaker and the Mesa Trans Atlantic that contain no presetting and no MIDI implementation. The intension was not to create a new Vetta or Flextone that had full POD's integrated with them. They wanted to create a dumber amp that could be attached to a HD500 if you needed the presetting and effects.



Re: I think I'm gonna have to send it back...
by spaceatl on 2013-01-12 15:02:07

Frank Zappa



Re: I think I'm gonna have to send it back...
by ivylotus on 2013-01-12 17:37:13

1) I'm sorry, but the reasoning to defend them on this is not legitimate, in my opinion. I'm not asking them to troubleshoot bad interfaces. They have stated openly that they know what works. Their tech guys have the information at their fingertips and in their heads. It takes 30 seconds to put a list on the website and/or share it with dealers. There's no reason not to.

2) Yeah, they don't do docs. That's how they roll at this point. I don't like it, and that's my problem. The MIDI implementation doc might have been cool for someone who planned on using it. I guess I am glad it is out there to allow Rolf to write an actually useful method of configuring the amp.

3) This isn't shareware. They don't get off the hook for docs because of the user community. If I pay a grand for an item, I expect it to come with docs, and I expect to be given information that is essential in getting the most out of the item I bought.

4) Agreed on accuracy, but I sill wonder if ultimately, this amp is truly usable at all with V2 capabilites without an HD500. IMO, 90% of the amp's value is with an HD500, and the V2 firmware is only relevant to those who don't have or want an HD500.

5) I think they missed the mark by focusing on the HD500 integration. If they had just focused on making an amp modeler that worked like an amp, then expanded beyond 4 sounds (even to just = 8 sounds, split into the A/B channels by their volume levels - which is how I had mine set up when I finally got exasperated with how the control knobs worked for some models), they might have had something nice and usable.

For someone who bought the DT25 as what it originally was, V2 is no harm no foul. To someone who didn't pay attention to the DT25 until after V2 was announced, its capabilities are a part of the product they paid for. When a company announces all that capability, it's reasonable to expect them to docuemnt it and provide the right informaiton up front to make it work and make it fun to use.

Guitar gear is supposd to be fun. This amp hasn't beenany fun at all. 99% of my problems with it were preventable if Line 6 thought the customers were important enough to provide good docs and good presale information. So no, I don't think they're evil and trying to screw anyone, but I think they are lacking (possibly lazy) when it comes to docuentation, and that's not a very customer-friendly attitude.



Re: I think I'm gonna have to send it back...
by Krontab on 2013-01-12 18:57:51

Responses to points:

1) Not defending so much as making an observation. In normal operation the DT device speaks MIDI. If the MIDI interface you are trying to install is not working the issue that is between you and the MIDI interface vendor and the PC vendor. If line 6 is the PC or MAC MIDI interface vendor then they are on the hook(not sure in your case if they are, I'm only taking the DT25 into consideration). I'm just trying to direct you to the correct party to provide a solution. The only exception here is if the DT25 is malfunctioning and not speaking MIDI, then seek repair or exchange.

2) Just the way it is unfortunatly, not enough of a deterent for me. I guess the option is to stop using the device in protest, but I think I would miss out on the fun I do have despite the documentation holes.

3) See #2 response

4) Its not as versital without the POD HD, with or without v2. In my opinion v2 does not signifigantly change the amp other than to allow you to swap the existing models for ones you might like more. I bought a HD 500 to expand the device as I well understood the limitations when I purchased it. Their choice to embrace Apple as a preferred interface is limiting, but at least they didn't block a third party from making an interface. Even with the interface it really is not adding any real live capability as the dial positions are not saved. Target market is to old school clean and dirt channel users and they nailed it. If your arguement is I should have more features because I did not invest in the whole system then your logic is lost on me.

5) If you bought the stand alone amp you bought in to those limitations. Deintegrating the preset brain from the amp allows for more versitility in the end as I can use my HD 500 independantly for silent recording or integrating into a PA easily. After all they have to compete with Digitech and Roland FX boards that are not tightly integrated. Combing that into the amp closes off the other market of users. What if I have another amp entirely or hate the DT25(one of my friends hates it and uses a Tech 21 with his HD 500)? The modular brain allows me to have the modeling and fx indepenedant of the amp choice. They could have combined it all together with a pedal board but it would have been priced at $1500 instead of $1000. It's all a matter of perspective. On the sales front I have never dealt directly with Line 6. I just have dealt with Guitar Center employees and some know what the equiptment is and some do not. Line 6 could choose to use dealers that use higher paid employees that study and certify on the equiptment but that cost would inevitably be pushed down to us. I personally have had a lot of fun with this equiptment despite Line 6's descrepancies and modicum of challenges. I can't think of a more versital system for the price. Egnator Tweaker or Mesa Tran Atlantc? They are just two channel amps and for the price of the Mesa you can buy the DT25 with at least an HD 400. I will note that the Mesa sounds devine and almost got me to forsake all of this modeling.



Re: I think I'm gonna have to send it back...
by ivylotus on 2013-01-12 20:26:30

1) I understand Line 6 does not support the MIDI interface. That's obvious. But your observation is kind of a tangent that dismisses the issue. Line 6 knows which devices work. Line 6 could provide information that would prevent hassles for its customers. Line 6 chooses not to do so. I called, waited on hold, got the information from Line 6 on what would work, and bought another device that worked. Problem solved. But a PITA that was preventable. One web page. 5 minutes. I mean, seriously.

2) There are other amps. And I figure if they don't document, I'm not sure what else they won't do. I have no doubts that many folks here have had great experiences with Line 6, and I am glad to see it. I've not had a great experience. So I'm not keeping the amp. Like I said, there are other amps, ones that sound really, really good - and for me at least, are much more fun to use, beause I'm not dealing with all this nonsense.

3) Likewise.

4) "In my opinion v2 does not signifigantly change the amp other than to allow you to swap the existing models for ones you might like more." Right. but to me at least, that was everything. The four original voicings never would have gotten me into the amp. Only the idea of going to 8, and being able to choose the 8, made the DT25 the least bit interesting to me. "Invest in the whole system"? I bought the amp, with the intention of using the features advertised as being part of the amp (whch is what V2 is now - not a gift, a promised feature set - to new buyers). If those features had been well documented and easy to set up and use, I'd be fine. They weren't, so it's going back.

5) Modeling is utilitarian to me. I can be happy with one or two great clean tones and a few pedals. But being able to pick amps is a nice bonus. I don't use models live, but it is nice to have 8 available for getting creative.

That said, I don't care for any floor processors. I know the HD500 is a very very good one - I have friends who love them. I just don't go for the floor board form factor, LCD interface, all-in-one thing. Nothing wrong with it, and I don't fault Line 6 for it. By most accounts, it's a leading product. Maybe you're right. maybe they should have just sold the DT25 as a fancy power amp for the HD500. That would have made more sense.

Bottom line: Line 6 lost a customer who could have been an enthusiastic advocate, by not documenting and not distributing complete and accurate information and simple tools that could help customers out - at a relatively low cost of time and effort to them.

By the way, they did tell me they knew they needed to work on a doc. However, they couldn't tell me when it would be ready. I have a return window to worry about, so I can't wait on an indefinite timeline. So it goes.



Re: I think I'm gonna have to send it back...
by pauliusmm on 2013-01-13 04:49:47

I agree that from standalone amp users view it seems limited and a bit unfair. Its like they put the most delicious soup on the table and only give us the fork.

About what you see is what you get approuch ... If you use dt25 with pod you dont have this approach, and this allows you to tweak all models to be useable. Why not make the same for standalone amp?



Re: I think I'm gonna have to send it back...
by Krontab on 2013-01-13 05:16:29

I suspect cost. They did this in the past. I had one of the Flextone III XL's. The only issue I had with this was when they upgraded to the POD X3 Live it was not useable with the Flextone (ground loops, idiosyncrocies, and such) and I had to invest in a new amp. I actually stuck it out with the Flextone and skipped a POD generation due to that. The current L6 Link system really does allow for future swapping of the L6 brain without needing to upgrade the amp. Even my Flextone required a floorboard to go from 4 presets to 36. This modular approach allows for more options in the end. The HD300 costs just as much as the dumb floorboard for my Flextone did. I'm sure they will change tactical direction if sales slump. The limitations are clear, you know what to buy to get the desired result. At least I had no issue discerning this from the limited knowlege of sales staff at my local Guitar Center and the limited online manuals at the time. At least there is an entry level to buy. If they loaded it up and charged more, the entry level dissappears. Even in its complete system it is more bang for the buck than its competitors.



Re: I think I'm gonna have to send it back...
by PDKTDK on 2013-01-13 09:50:40

Try this before you return the unit.  I know it adds complexity you don't want but it's pretty cool!

http://line6.com/support/thread/90718?tstart=0">http://line6.com/support/thread/90718?tstart=0">http://line6.com/support/thread/90718?tstart=0



Re: I think I'm gonna have to send it back...
by ivylotus on 2013-01-13 10:03:09

I actually got DT Edit running, after all manner of hoop jumps. I'm still underwhelmed by the functionality of the amp, and the lack of documentation. The volume shifts, while I understand them, make the amp hard to use they way I want to use it - which is not just two channels live, but 8 in experimentation and creative work. The lack of docs means I have to scribble onto a piece of paper what some of the knobs do with some of the models - and I still don't entirely know how the "Drive" knob actually behaves with every model. I essentially got "it depends."

Honestly, Line 6 has thoroughly killed my buzz, and it is no knock against these forums that it can't be rekindled.

But thanks.



Re: I think I'm gonna have to send it back...
by BigBob-Irwin on 2013-01-14 02:12:53

What you got when you purchased the amp was a 2 channel amp where you could put different amps on each channel or the same amp with one more gained up on one channel than the other and all this out of a choice of 4 amp models. Now what you have is the same 2 channel amp with the choice of 22 amp models to choose from and with the addition of a od or distortion pedal in the front of the amp I can think of nothing more versatile for the price. In other words what other manufacturer is making a valve output amp with a choice of amp model out of a selection of most of the classic amps ever made (wish they would add a Dumble) that you can choose 2 of,  one for each channel?



Re: I think I'm gonna have to send it back...
by ivylotus on 2013-01-14 05:36:57

Nobody. But the way it works just isn't for me. It's already headed back. No hard feelings toward Line 6. I just wish they'd made it less of a hassle on a variety of fronts. But sure, it's a completly unique product. Nothing else really like it.



Re: I think I'm gonna have to send it back...
by BigBob-Irwin on 2013-01-14 07:21:05

No Problem just wanted to put my 2 pence worth in as how I see the amp. I can see where your coming from with Line 6 not getting there stuff together just hope that you did not send the amp back because you were mad at Line 6 but what the amp could do or not do for you. At the moment I have mine set up with the twin on the A channel with the mid turned way up and the treble turned down a bit for the closest I can get to a dumble sound and the Plexi on the B channel with a Joyo ultimate drive (OCD clone) and Joyo vintage overdrive(Tube Screamer clone) plus a vox wah in the front end this gets me pretty close to what I want at a gig.

I do hope L6 comes out with a Dumble style amp model soon though as I can see me going for a Fuchs Blackjack 21 MkII head. I do have the Pod HD 500 and can use that via the link but as yet prefer the amp and pedals by themselves as I can not seem to get quite the same with the pod with or without the pedals and anyway I spend endless hours chasing my tail trying to get the tone in my head by programming the Pod with the DT kind of what I used to do when I was into hifi years ago i.e put all the expensive cartridges amp and record deck together only to get annoyed at the static and scratches on the record instead of listening to the music. Good luck with whatever Amp you choose



Re: I think I'm gonna have to send it back...
by pauliusmm on 2013-01-15 19:30:05

I think mine goes back to Thomann. Its a pretty nice amp, but i also have Axe Fx II and i like it better.




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