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Thoughts and Questions on using the HD500 with my DT25
by radatats on 2013-01-24 03:41:52

I just got my HD500 and my DT25 and they are both awesome.  As suggested, first thing I did was to update the firmware on both, no problems.  I installed the HD Edit software and the DT Edit software (http://code.google.com/p/dtedit).  I think both pieces of gear are fantastic but the documentation absolutely sucks for usability.  I am going to take a whack at laying out some of the features as I believe it to be and I hope to get your feedback and corrections and hopefully some answers to my questions.

1.  DT25

  • Internal HD preamp models (29) feeding tube power section. No tubes in preamp signal path.
  • Topology (Voicing) changes preset configurations of internal preamp model and power section configuration (Negative Feedback Loop, Class A/AB, Pentode/Triode).
  • Pentode = 25 watts, Triode = 10 watts.
  • All settings configurable with DT Edit software.
  • You can setup 4 different internal amp patches for each channel.

2.  HD500 into DT25

  • HD500 preamp models (29) feeding DT25 tube power section (internal HD models bypassed).
  • Patch settings (Drive, Bass, Mid, Presence, Reverb, Volume) set by HD500 regardless of DT25 knob position. Changes can then be made on either HD500 or DT25.
  • HD500 Master is bypassed, DT25 Master is functional.
  • HD500 sets power section configuration (Negative Feedback Loop, Class A/AB, Pentode/Triode).
  • Exception to that rule: if you turn the amp block(s) off in the HD500 patch, the DT25 signal will default to channel B of the DT25 and use the currently selected Topology (Internal preamp, Negative Feedback Loop, Class A/AB, Pentode/Triode) settings on the amp.

3. Preamp vs Full Amp models.

  • Both feed signal direct to the tube power section.
  • Full amp model just adds more coloration to the signal to help sound like the chosen model.

4. Tube Power Section of DT25

  • Only affected directly by the Topology, Class A/AB, Pentode/Triode switches.
  • All other switches (Drive, Bass, Mid, Presence, Reverb, Volume) affect modeled signal feeding power section.
  • Master switch controls power section output to your speakers.

5. Dual vs Single Amp Patches.

  • DT25 cannot process stereo signal.  HD500 output is always fed to channel A unless amp blocks are turned off in the HD500.
  • Dual amp patches can still be created but the signal will be mixed and summed before passing to the DT25 channel A.
  • Channel switching can be done by creating single amp patch and assigning the amp block ON/OFF to a footswitch.
    • With the amp block ON, HD500 modeled signal passes to channel A power section.
    • With the amp block OFF, signal with effects passes to channel B of DT25 and uses the currently selected Topology including internal preamp modeling and power section configuration.
    • Setup properly, you can get a clean/dirty amp change with all effects remaining the same using just the one footswitch.


6. DT25 Power Section Settings Not Set Automatically in HD Edit or DT Edit.

  • Epic fail.  Big selling point was amp settings automatically adjust when you select the corresponding amp model.  However,  no matter what amp or preamp you choose in the software, you will have to manually configure the DT25 power section.
  • There is no documentation that lists the correct settings for each amp model.  So if you select the Gibtone 185 it has the same settings as the Bomber Uber by default.
  • HD500 will change the power section to whatever the patch settings are but they will only be what you set them to be when you create the patch.  Default seems to be Class AB, Topology 1, Pentode.
  • POD HD500 Model Gallery does not describe topology settings.

7. Questions...

  • Where can we get the info to set DT25 power sections up properly ourselves?
  • Where can we download the original factory set lists?  (When I did the Firmware update my factory DT setlist was gone...)
  • Is there a way to post set lists to the Custom Tone page?
  • Where can we download the complete set of tones from Custom Tone in HD Edit format?  I downloaded the Zip file from the FAQ but the patches are not in HD Edit format.
  • Where is the best place in the signal chain to place a Volume Pedal?
    • If I set it in the beginning, it affects the signal driving the preamp module and therefore gain level and distortion.
    • If I set it at the end it should only control the total signal level feeding the power section with preamp gain, distortion and all effects intact.
    • Do I have that right? Any thoughts?
  • Low Volume Mode (LVM) without the HD500 uses the full internal amp model but what does it do to the power section settings?
    • Does it just feed a reduced strength signal to the power amp and therefore compensates with the extra amp modeling?
    • Does it automatically switch to the 10 watt mode?
    • Is there another lower wattage being output that is not documented?

Appreciate your input and responses... Hope this is clear enough for everyone. Feel free to add on with helpful info you have figured out...



Re: Thoughts and Questions on using the HD500 with my DT25
by Krontab on 2013-01-26 12:12:04

Not seeing the behavior you have in point #6. My HD500 switches voicing and class depending on the model selected using the L6 link.

Low Volume Mode (LVM) without the HD500 uses the full internal amp model but what does it do to the power section settings?

Does it just feed a reduced strength signal to the power amp and therefore compensates with the extra amp modeling?

I bypasses all of the voicings and power settings and simulates the tube saturation. It runs the power section in an undocumented clean state (might be solid state).

Does it automatically switch to the 10 watt mode?

Is there another lower wattage being output that is not documented?

The 25W/10W mode is the class A/B, A switch in normal mode. Not sure what the LVM wattage is.



Re: Thoughts and Questions on using the HD500 with my DT25
by spaceatl on 2013-01-26 13:06:34

Class and Mode affect the power output...Approx...AB 25, A 15 in Pentode...AB 20, A 12 in Triode Mode...LVM is not solid-state...



Re: Thoughts and Questions on using the HD500 with my DT25
by Krontab on 2013-01-27 07:08:26

Can the simulated tube saturation be adjusted in LVM? I always find it a but more fuzzy than I would like.



Re: Thoughts and Questions on using the HD500 with my DT25
by radatats on 2013-01-27 13:26:55

I agree that when switching amps/preamps with the HD500 connected to the DT25 with the L6 link, the power sedction topology changes.  The big question is does it just change to whatever settings are in the patch you are using or does it default to the correct settings for that particular amp/preamp?  I believe it is the former.  The problem is when creating patches with the HD Edit software, the correct topology is not set when changing amp/preamp.  It stays at the default.  So when you save your patch, your fancy new amp/preamp may well have the wrong topology applied.  Does that make sense?  I think the problem is in the HD Edit, not the HD500.  I am working a support ticket on this now and will keep you posted...



Re: Thoughts and Questions on using the HD500 with my DT25
by radatats on 2013-01-27 13:28:06

For all you Mac users, active thread for Mac DT Editor development:

http://line6.com/support/thread/90847?tstart=0

Great stuff!



Re: Thoughts and Questions on using the HD500 with my DT25
by Krontab on 2013-01-27 15:38:22

I just tested the situation you described. I took 4 patches with the same pre amp and modified the settings on the DT power section and sent them to the unit, each patch with a different non default setting. When I change patches it accuratly sets itself to what I specified. I did this all within the HD Editor. The only thing I can't do is get it to assume a different default when creating a new tone. Not that big of a deal but it would be nice to be able to save a different default.



Re: Thoughts and Questions on using the HD500 with my DT25
by radatats on 2013-01-27 17:51:14

Right, but you are missing what I am saying I think.  When you are creating the patch in the HD Edit and select an amp/preamp, any of them, the DT section defaults to Class A Pentode, voice I. Every time, for every amp/preamp.  You have to set those items manually to reflect the amp/preamp you are using.  However, there is no documentation anywhere that tells you what the correct settings should be for each amp/preamp.  Definitely, whatever settings are there when you save the patch will be transferred to and implemented by the DT25 but they will only be what you made them, not necessarily what they should be for accuracy.

I want the HD Edit to automatically configure the DT settings to the correct topology when I select an amp/preamp or at least have the reference data available so I can set it myself. I have no clue what the correct settings should be for a Bomber Ultra or whatever...  I may choose to reconfigure them anyways, but I want to start from the correct settings first.

The discrepancy is definitely in the HD Edit.  I have not tried creating a patch within the HD500 to see what it does but I bet it is the same...



Re: Thoughts and Questions on using the HD500 with my DT25
by Krontab on 2013-01-28 04:48:44

I'm not missing that. Mine is doing what you are expecting. That does seem like a bug or malfunction. I'll get the reference data for you from mine. I'm curious, I'm using PC are you using the Mac version?

Defaults From HD500:

Model NameDefault CabDefault MicHD 500 TopologyClassPent/Tri
Blackface Dbl Nrm2x12 Blackface Dbl57 On AxisIA/BPentode
Blackface Dbl Vib2x12 Blackface Dbl57 On AxisIA/BPentode
Hiway 1004x12 Hiway67 CondenserIA/BPentode
Super O1x(6x9)Super O421 DynamicIIAPentode
Gibtone 1851x12 Gibtone F-Coil121 RibbonIIIAPentode
Tweed B-Man Nrm4x10 Tweed B-Man67 CondenserIIA/BPentode
Tweed B-Man Brt4x10 Tweed B-Man67 CondenserIIA/BPentode
Blackface 'Lux Nrm1x12 Blackface 'Lux57 On AxisIA/BPentode
Blackface 'Lux Vib1x12 Blackface 'Lux57 On AxisIA/BPentode
Divide 9/151x12 Celest 12-H4038 RibbonIIIA/BPentode
PhD Motorway2x12 PhD Ported409 DynamicIA/BPentode
Class A-151x12 Blue Bell421 DynamicIIIAPentode
Class A-30 TB2x12 Silver Bell57 On AxisIIIAPentode
Brit J-45 Nrm4x12 Greenback 25421 DynamicIIA/BPentode
Brit J-45 Brt4x12 Greenback 25421 DynamicIIA/BPentode
Brit P-75 Nrm4x12 Blackback 30409 DynamicIIA/BPentode
Brit P-75 Brt4x12 Blackback 30409 DynamicIIA/BPentode
Brit J-8004x12 Brit T-7557 Off AxisIIA/BPentode
Bomber Uber4x12 Uber87 CondenserIIIA/BPentode
Treadplate4x12 Tread V-3087 CondenserIII (originally IV on DT)A/BPentode
Angel F-Ball4x12 XXL V-30409 DynamicIVA/BPentode
Line 6 Elektrik4x12 Uber87 CondenserIIIA/BPentode
Solo-100 Clean4x12 Brit T-7557 Off AxisIA/BPentode
Solo-100 Crunch4x12 Brit T-7557 Off AxisIA/BPentode
Solo-100 Overdrive4x12 Brit T-7557 Off AxisIA/BPentode
Line 6 Doom4x12 Hiway409 DynamicIA/BPentode
Line 6 Epic4x12 XXL V-30409 DynamicIA/BPentode
Flip Top115 Flip Top112 DynIA/BPentode


Re: Thoughts and Questions on using the HD500 with my DT25
by radatats on 2013-01-28 06:09:01

Wow!  Thank you so much!  I am using PC version HD Edit and it definitely does not set these conditions when choosing a new amp/preamp.  Thanks for pulling this out for me.

When I first got my HD500, I updated the firmware before saving any of the factory setlists and when it was done, the original L6Link > DT setlist was not there any more.  I did get that from another member.  I have to check to see if it has all these models with these settings.

I have a support ticket in with L6 so we will see what they say about this.  It will probably turn out that I did something wrong but who knows?

Thanks again!

Steve

EDIT:  After reviewing your chart I find it interesting that every single amp has a Pentode configuration.  Not even one has a Triode config?   There is only one amp on the list with type IV topology and the Treadplate has changed?  Did they have it wrong? 

These are supposed to match the physical way these amps are constructed and wired.  It shouldn't be changed unless there was a manufacturing change for the amp in question.  I like that we can modify them and create new models that don't actually exist but I want to be sure that I have the accurate base model first before tweaking.

I still think we need an official verification from Line6.  That doesn't pass the smell check for me...

But still, thanks for your work!



Re: Thoughts and Questions on using the HD500 with my DT25
by JimKidd on 2013-01-28 06:52:51

radatats wrote:

...I updated the firmware before saving any of the factory setlists and when it was done, the original L6Link > DT setlist was not there any more...

That is hinky



Re: Thoughts and Questions on using the HD500 with my DT25
by Krontab on 2013-01-28 08:01:30

Double checked my work. All is listed per their defaults on the HD500. The Treadplate thing has always been a bit confusing to me. IV seems correct to me in comparing it with real ones. Now you have me on an OCD infromation hunt to find out whitch of the really old amps should be using Triode because it surely makes a differance where and how the tube clips.



Re: Thoughts and Questions on using the HD500 with my DT25
by Krontab on 2013-01-28 08:15:26

Gibson EH185 = Triode for the power section histoically



Re: Thoughts and Questions on using the HD500 with my DT25
by radatats on 2013-01-28 09:53:51

OK so I bounced what you had against what it shows in the factory L6LINK--DT set list and there are even more discrepancies. 

That set list does not have any of the new amp models so Line6 evidently didn't update it with the firmware upgrade.

From HD500From HD Edit
Model NameClassHD 500 TopologyPent/TriClassHD 500 TopologyPent/Tri
Blackface Dbl NrmA/BIPentodeA/BIPentode
Blackface Dbl VibA/BIPentodeA/BIPentode
Hiway 100A/BIPentodeA/BIIPentode
Super OAIIPentodeA/BIIIPentode
Gibtone 185AIIITriodeAIIIPentode
Tweed B-Man NrmA/BIIPentodeA/BIPentode
Tweed B-Man BrtA/BIIPentodeA/BIPentode
Blackface 'Lux NrmA/BIPentodeA/BIPentode
Blackface 'Lux VibA/BIPentodeA/BIPentode
Divide 9/15A/BIIIPentodeAIIIPentode
PhD MotorwayA/BIPentodeA/BIIIPentode
Class A-15AIIIPentodeAIIIPentode
Class A-30 TBAIIIPentodeAIIIPentode
Brit J-45 NrmA/BIIPentodeA/BIIPentode
Brit J-45 BrtA/BIIPentodeA/BIIPentode
Brit P-75 NrmA/BIIPentodeA/BIIPentode
Brit P-75 BrtA/BIIPentodeA/BIIPentode
Brit J-800A/BIIPentodeA/BIIPentode
Bomber UberA/BIIIPentodeA/BIVPentode
TreadplateA/BIII (originally IV on DT)PentodeA/BIII (originally IV on DT)Pentode
Angel F-BallA/BIVPentodeA/BIVPentode
Line 6 ElektrikA/BIIIPentode
Solo-100 CleanA/BIPentode
Solo-100 CrunchA/BIPentode
Solo-100 OverdriveA/BIPentode
Line 6 DoomA/BIPentode
Line 6 EpicA/BIPentode
Flip TopA/BIPentode

This is really starting to bug me... 



Re: Thoughts and Questions on using the HD500 with my DT25
by Krontab on 2013-01-28 10:48:59

Good dig. I wonder if line6 will respond. Is the later information correction? Or did someone get tired while coding?



Re: Thoughts and Questions on using the HD500 with my DT25
by Krontab on 2013-01-28 12:06:46

I noticed that there were more than 16 DT Presets in your list so I loaded my factory set and rechecked. I also interrogated my DT Amp Firmware. Please to enjoy. Red denotes variance from what the DT Firmware is set to.


Default When Choosing Amp in HD EditSetting In L6Link → DT Setlist HD500From DT Firmware V2
Model NameHD 500 TopologyClassPent/TriHD 500 TopologyClassPent/TriHD 500 TopologyClassPent/Tri
Blackface Dbl NrmIA/BPentode


IA/BPentode
Blackface Dbl VibIA/BPentodeIA/BPentodeIA/BPentode
Hiway 100IA/BPentodeIIA/BPentodeIA/BPentode
Super OIIAPentodeIIIA/BPentodeIIAPentode
Gibtone 185IIIAPentodeIIIAPentodeIIIAPentode
Tweed B-Man NrmIIA/BPentodeIA/BPentodeIIA/BPentode
Tweed B-Man BrtIIA/BPentode


IIA/BPentode
Blackface 'Lux NrmIA/BPentode


IA/BPentode
Blackface 'Lux VibIA/BPentodeIA/BPentodeIA/BPentode
Divide 9/15IIIA/BPentodeIIIAPentodeIIIA/BPentode
PhD MotorwayIA/BPentodeIIIA/BPentodeIA/BPentode
Class A-15IIIAPentodeIIIAPentodeIIIAPentode
Class A-30 TBIIIAPentodeIIIAPentodeIIIAPentode
Brit J-45 NrmIIA/BPentode


IIA/BPentode
Brit J-45 BrtIIA/BPentodeIIA/BPentodeIIA/BPentode
Brit P-75 NrmIIA/BPentode


IIA/BPentode
Brit P-75 BrtIIA/BPentodeIIA/BPentodeIIA/BPentode
Brit J-800IIA/BPentodeIIA/BPentodeIIA/BPentode
Bomber UberIIIA/BPentodeIVA/BPentodeIIIA/BPentode
TreadplateIIIA/BPentodeIIIA/BPentodeIVA/BPentode
Angel F-BallIVA/BPentodeIVA/BPentodeIVA/BPentode
Line 6 ElektrikIIIA/BPentode


IIIA/BPentode
Solo-100 CleanIA/BPentode


IA/BPentode
Solo-100 CrunchIA/BPentode


IA/BPentode
Solo-100 OverdriveIA/BPentode


IA/BPentode
Line 6 DoomIA/BPentode


IA/BPentode
Line 6 EpicIA/BPentode


IA/BPentode
Flip TopIA/BPentode


IA/BPentode

Posted new question in POD forum http://line6.com/support/thread/91135?tstart=0



Re: Thoughts and Questions on using the HD500 with my DT25
by radatats on 2013-01-28 21:12:57

Another great piece of the puzzle, thanks!  We are still left with the fact that not one single topology uses Triode.  Really?  That is a bit surprising to me and really makes me wonder why it is even there then. 

Second, I don't beleive all the new amps are really Top I.  Doom and Epic should be IV or III at least.  I don't think L6 bothered to program that in right.

I also discovered tonight that the main discrepancy I have been talking about, the amps not configuring in the HD Edit, is only when you use it offline (no HD500 connected).  With the HD500 connected, the DT settings DO change.  Have to remember that when doing batch work offline.



Re: Thoughts and Questions on using the HD500 with my DT25
by Krontab on 2013-01-29 05:05:28

Interesting that means that the HD500 itself is the real brain behind HD Edit. As far as the power settings are concerned, in my mind the DT firmware amp settings should be the reference setting. The presets were just made to someone's taste and are an anomaly.  On the pentode/triode issue, I think since we aren't using the actual tubes that are in the amp simulated it may not matter and its just so we can run low power if nessisary. Most of the amps simulated have it as an option anyway. Also in a lot of cases we have more dials than existed on the original. There should have been better communication between device development groups.



Re: Thoughts and Questions on using the HD500 with my DT25
by radatats on 2013-01-29 10:08:01

Well at least someone thought what Krontab and I did was worthwhile.  Seems Line6Hugo added the chart above of the DT topology to the DT50/DT25 FAQ document as a PDF after I submitted it with my support ticket. 

Not that I really give a f**k but it would have been nice to get at least a nod for Krontab's hard work but he wouldn't have know that since I didn't think to tell him. Sorry guys!

I submitted it to Line6 already as a feature suggestion and had another idea but who knows...  At least the info is out there.

http://line6.com/support/docs/DOC-2106">http://line6.com/support/docs/DOC-2106">http://line6.com/support/docs/DOC-2106



Re: Thoughts and Questions on using the HD500 with my DT25
by Krontab on 2013-01-29 10:50:54

Thanks for the heads up. I'm glad more information is available to other users.



Re: Thoughts and Questions on using the HD500 with my DT25
by radatats on 2013-01-29 19:01:04

Last post on this issue.  I created a nice PDF with all the default settings for both amp and preamp models in the HD Edit software package.

Check it out, hope it is useful...



Re: Thoughts and Questions on using the HD500 with my DT25
by rollo69 on 2013-01-30 07:44:13

Thanks for all the great work guys. Lot's of fantasic info here.

I've discovered something weird in my DT25/HD500 setup that may be related.

I have created two simple presets, one with a JCM800 and one with a Blackface, amp only. The power amp and cab settings are exactly the same on both presets. Now I play something in the looper and toggle between the two.

If I feed the HD500 into the effect return of the DT then the looper playback is equally loud on both presets. Switching is seamless

If the DT is connected via Line6 Link then the looper is significantly louder when JCM800 preset is on.

So the DT power amp gets boosted by the HD with the JCM800 amp model for some strange reason.

This volume jump is really annoying if I want to use the looper.



Re: Thoughts and Questions on using the HD500 with my DT25
by Krontab on 2013-01-30 17:52:06

Makes sense to me as the amp topolgy is automatically switched via L6 Link and it is not when you just connect via 1/4 to the return. So, the (digital) Link way the amp switches its power section to the JCM800 or Blackface power section and the analog way has no way of communicating that info. Unless the plan is to use just two amp models based in the DT I would not connect via the power in as it limits the HD's control over the amp. Use the CH Vol to level it out.



Re: Thoughts and Questions on using the HD500 with my DT25
by rollo69 on 2013-01-31 01:44:13

I know that I have to deal with volume jumps when I switch amp topology or class A/B etc. This can't be leveled out because channel volume sits in front of the looper and not behind. But that's just the nature of things and can be dealt with if I don't change power amp settings with my looper presets.

But in this scenario I set both presets to exactly the same settings on the POD, on the DT front panel and in the DT Edit software, only the preamp model differs. So the power amp should behave exactly the same in both presets. But there is still a strong volume boost in the DT if I use the JCM model compared to other amp models. It looks like there is another hidden boost parameter set somewhere when the POD configures the DT for the JCM model (or a damping parameter for all the others). Maybe that also applies to other amp models but I haven't tested that yet.



Re: Thoughts and Questions on using the HD500 with my DT25
by Krontab on 2013-01-31 16:05:12

You can put the looper at the front of the chain but then it records the guitar signal only and no FX. I've always thought the looper is a bit of an afterthought on this unit. All I use it for is getting peticular tone correct. As an autoplay while I tweak dials feature.



Re: Thoughts and Questions on using the HD500 with my DT25
by greghall on 2013-02-01 01:41:03

But there is still a strong volume boost in the DT if I use the JCM model compared to other amp models. It looks like there is another hidden boost parameter set somewhere when the POD configures the DT for the JCM model (or a damping parameter for all the others). Maybe that also applies to other amp models but I haven't tested that yet.

Each of the (pre) amp models in the HD has a different volume level, regardless of the DT topology settings. Some are more different than others. If you search the threads, you will see that this has been discussed before, and apparently it's an aspect of the more authentic modeling of the real amps provided by the HD series.

    



Re: Thoughts and Questions on using the HD500 with my DT25
by Krontab on 2013-02-01 17:59:39

I agree and prefer it that way.



Re: Thoughts and Questions on using the HD500 with my DT25
by rollo69 on 2013-02-02 09:23:18

It's ok if the amp defaults to a certain level. But I don't understand why this volume setting is not accessable from the outside (neither on the HD or via MIDI on the DT).

It renders the looper totally useless in a live stuation if the DT output level is totally unpredictable when changing sounds while looping.



Re: Thoughts and Questions on using the HD500 with my DT25
by whiteop on 2013-02-21 06:07:17

I find that using Studio / Direct or the Combo Poweramp mode into the DT amps using the Full amp sims seems to work well except for metal type tones then it's Preamp amp sims. I also find that turning off the speaker sims sometimes sounds better.




The information above may not be current, and you should direct questions to the current forum or review the manual.