Perfect

I only use the Helix w/ FRFRs because of some of the acoustic tones I use, so not much experience with what you're doing, but without an amp cab sim the tone is very harsh in my setups.    

 

There aren't any rules...how does it sound using a cab model when running into your amp?  Do whatever sounds good!

I did try some IR's and the sound was too muddy/boomy through the guitar cabs.

Cleaner sounds don't seem too bad without a cab sim, it's the higher gain stuff that has something of a "piercing" quality about it.

I've decided to take the plunge and use my Helix at a gig this weekend. I'll be running it through a solid state power amp into guitar cabs. The issue that I have is that the sound (with no cab model or IR engaged)is a bit on the harsh side. Does anyone have any recommended EQ settings to address this please?

Some people suggest using a high cut at 6k or 8k with the Helix, however that seems to cut too much of the highs and harmonic richness from the tone. Managed to experiment today (at volume) and got up to around 12k for the high cut before I was still reasonably happy with the tone, although my ears may have been getting tired by this point.

Would one of the other EQ options be a better way to do this rather than just applying the high cut?

Or should the sound actually be "harsh" through real guitar cabs compared to the headphone/monitored tone with modelled cabs? I did try a couple of different amps and speakers and the results were consistent in this respect.

Cheers!

Amplitube had a Marshall 1936 2x12 model. I put Celestion G12K-100 speakers in it. I did two series, one with a 121 ribbon "R" and 87 condenser "C" mics and one with 57 dynamic "D" and 87 condenser "C" mics, with 3 positions each. 0, 1, & 2 inches from the center cap. No tube power amp influence on them to keep them close to solid state as possible.

Thank you - will give them a listen this evening.

Happy to share the patch of you want it

Yes please.

I use an eq block in front of the cabless path to knock off some of the hi end

This is the sort of thing I'm interested in. Is there a generic solution that can be applied to get most of the way there, rather than having to tweak every amp model to use it with an actual guitar cab?

I do own a Marshall 1960A 4x12 however these days I normally use the combination of a Marshall 1936 2x12 behind me (upgraded to a pair of 150 watt speakers) with a Marshall 1912 1x12 (with a stock Celestion G12B-150) on the other side of the stage for some stereo spread.

This will be using a solid state amp. I do own a Marshall 9200 (but it's so heavy to lug around!) and a Mesa Boogie 20/20 (sounds good for most stuff but I was never happy with the clean sounds at gig volume) however what I want to do now is cleanly amplify the output from the Helix through "real" speakers.

A potential added bonus of this approach is that dispensing with the IR from the "live" version of the patch seems to reduce the annoying delay when switching patches. IRs will still be used when going direct for rehearsal and recording.

I may have a little job for you :-)

My post (no replies so far!) here: http://line6.com/support/topic/20091-patches-for-helix-power-amp-guitar-cab/included some speculation about an IR that you could use to dial in a live sound that would then be used (without the IR) through an actual guitar cab. Does this require the magical exact modelling of a particular cab and microphone combination, or would a more generic approach pay off along the lines of old school speaker emulation?

Doubtless this is not the best way to go about things, however you appear to be an experimenter by nature who likes pushing the envelope so I wondered whether you might have any ideas/input?

Does anyone have any good patches for running the Helix into a power amp and guitar speakers that you can share please?

I've created a bunch of tones noodling around using headphones (and cab sims) however that isn't the way I would use it live.

My experiments so far suggest that running the Helix amp model with no cab sim through a clean power amp into a Marshall guitar cab (closed back, 12 inch speakers) sounds promising, although some amp models are rather harsh at default settings. Normally I would just thrash this out by tweaking, however I have a problem in that my band is currently doing "low volume" rehearsals and I can't play at full gig volume at home to really dial in the sounds, so it would be useful to benchmark against some other examples. I certainly don't want to start experimenting at a gig in front of an audience :-)

Final thought (probably won't work, but what the heck) is there a short cut/smart way of doing this? Such as finding a cab sim/IR that works for setting up a patch using flat monitoring and when removed from the patch leaves you with a similar end result when run into an actual guitar cab? Arguably this should work for the speaker itself, although the microphone element is presumably a complicating factor.

If 4CM isn't working for you, it might be your guitar amp or its settings. You could try using Helix as the whole front end connecting Helix output to your amp's effect returns.

I was about to post the same suggestion.

As far as I'm aware the Fender 2x12 Hot Rod Deville combo is not a high gain "metal" amp, so if that is the sound you want I would be using the Helix for everything before the "real" power amp and speakers of the combo.

Regarding whether to use pre amp models only on the Helix or full amp models and cab sims - experiment and find out what works best with your gear at gig volume.

I suppose it depends what you define as a "scene".

Certainly the ability to assign the blocks within a patch set to either "on" or "off" to one footswitch, with other of patterns of blocks on and off assigned to other footswitches, would be a huge step forward.

What would be truly great is if you could also amend all the parameters within each block and save that as scenes within the patch - however I will accept the first option as a start :-)

I must be deaf. I don't hear any of the problems you guys are describing in this thread. To sell the helix is crazy in my opinion. I love mine!! Could there be a troll on the thread? IDK......

Do you play live with the Helix and change patches during a song?

How about some sort of "super" scene mode where you keep the same models in the patch but as well as turning blocks on and off you can change all the settings?

Let's assume noise gate and cab for all:

Pedal 1 for clean amp with chorus and a little reverb.

Pedal 2 for clean amp with chorus, big reverb and delay.

Pedal 3 for higher gain amp on crunch level with a small amount of reverb

Pedal 4 turns up the gain (maybe add a drive pedal) and scoops the mids

Pedal 5 is back to crunch but with a big delay

Pedal 6 is high gain lead with reverb and the pedal, amp gain and channel output turned up

Pedal 7 is similar to 6 but with a tad less gain and chorus and delay added

Pedal 8 is mid gain with a big modulation FX

Although obviously not the same as switching patches to completely customise each sound, something like the above could cover a lot of ground for gigs with 2 amps and half a dozen FX blocks in the same patch, as long as a single foot press enabled blocks (and the settings within them) to be changed as programmed without additional tap dancing.

And IF you or anyone else can't "get" by now that Line 6 knows about this issue, then we have our "transmitter" stuck on and our "receiver" shorted to ground...Beating a dead horse won't get this issue fixed any faster.

Couple of thoughts:

If people are unhappy they like to vent their frustrations/concerns and this forum is an obvious place to do it.

Not everyone bought their Helix and discovered the patch switching at the same time, and so it will continue to be mentioned as it becomes an issue for people.

For those that do find the patch switching delay to be a real world problem, I suppose there is a concern that if lots of forum members say it isn't really a problem this will reduce the chance of Line 6 doing something about it.

Closing down discussion on the topic will only make it look as though the truth is being hidden.

And let's all try to keep it civilised...

If its good enough for you and your only suggestion is a repeat of "use a dual tone patch", you should probably just refrain from participating in the conversation for sake of sounding like a fanboy shill.

Indeed.

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Unless you have scenes and enough DSP aboard to accommodate several presets worth of switching within one preset, I don't think the "battle-ready aircraft carrier" analogy is particularly accurate. Right now we have more of speedboat that can't change directions quickly. ;)

We are battle ready sir! Unless the enemy shoots us while we are changing patches. In which case we are sunk...

Not quite sure this is the case without stats to back it up, "many of us" might be a bit more accurate than "most of us".  It certainly is good but this issue does need to be addressed.

I didn't even notice the patch switching issue to start with when I was just noodling around at home getting to know the Helix. For people doing this, or using the Helix for recording, or able to play songs live staying with a single patch, I can believe that it probably is absolutely fine. It was at a rehearsal with my band it became clear that although my Helix patches sound good (to me at least!) there was a noticeable gap when switching between them. The band is me on guitar and backing vocals with bass, drums and a singer so the gaps do stand out. We do play a lot of up tempo tunes and I do use quite a few different sounds (I embraced the flexibility of modelling technology a long time ago) so perhaps I am a worst case example.

Sadly, as things stand I do not feel I can use the Helix for a gig entirely due to this issue. And I want this to change.

I'm playing a gig now (just taking a quick break between sets). Still using my HD147 and have been paying particular attention to my patch changes tonight. There are lots that I do on the beat and I really can't see that trying to do them a few beats earlier to accomodate the Helix is going to work.

Not sure where you are located but if in Europe it might be worth checking out the (inexpensive) harley Benton GPA-400 from Thomann.

 

 

That looks like a bargain. However, is 100 watts per channel at 8 ohm loud enough to adequately terrorise the audience for those of us that usually rely on our guitar amp for volume rather than going through a PA?

If someone wants to buy me a second Helix I would be happy to see if this cures the patch latency issue :-)

For me on some tunes it is just one rhythm and lead tone so easily accomplished within a single patch.

However on some songs I use a clean tone (with and without chorus and delay) chunky rhythm, heavy scooped rhythm, and three lead tones (although on most songs I only use one or two of the leads). And I've different variations of some of those tones for different songs. But then I have been playing around with them for many years!

There are also a number of tunes where I use some big FX sounds and I have 4 patches set up just for these on my HD147.

I spent some more time on the Helix tonight to see if I could come up with a patch where I could switch between the clean, rhythm and lead tones with one pedal press for each sound. Haven't cracked it yet though.

I'm not sure I see what the problem is, other than not grasping how to use this kind of technology.

Not grasping how to use Line 6 technology???

I've been using Line 6 gear for the best part of 20 years now. I originally moved to it from a midi rack system (mostly for convenience and reduced weight) and in all that time through various Flextone amps, Pod/Pod Pro units, HD147 etc. I have never been aware of such a serious issue with patch switching latency until the Helix. Did any of the advertising information or artist endorsement videos for the Helix advise of these new "feature" that means you can't switch between patches without gaps? If so, I must have missed it.

There may be no issue for people that don't gig or that don't use many different sounds during a song/set. However, for those of us that do and are finding it to be an issue with the Helix it's laughable to try and say that we just don't know how to use Line 6 gear.

I absolutely agree with those that consider the latency to be a key issue that needs to be addressed with the Helix in some way or another. On Saturday I played a gig with my Line 6 HD147 and there were no noticeable latency issues with patch switching. This evening (Monday) we had a band practise and I used my Helix and quite a few times there were "gaps" in the sound due to patch switching, particularly annoying when it's the first note of a solo or the first "heavy" chord after a clean section and the impact is lost. The latency on patch switching doesn't have to be 0 (doubtless there is some on the HD147) however it needs to be less than it is now on the Helix.

I currently have 16 patches over 4 banks that I use live. I was hoping to make that just 2 banks with the Helix - not increase the amount of tap dancing required and need to adjust my playing style to make pre-emptive patch changes.

Let me put it this way, if Line 6 said "There is nothing we can do to improve the patch switching latency on the Helix, do you want your money back?" as of now I would take the money.

I would hope that Line 6 are more forward thinking than only following the existing amp crowd though. If you have the technology to model at a component level surely someone must be trying mixing the various elements (and thinking outside the box!) to see what new/improved/different sounds can be delivered?

Not that I particular want an amp model that makes my guitar sound like a trombone, however surely with the power now available in the Helix Line 6 can come up with some interesting/usable stuff that isn't just copies of existing gear and FX.

Switching between patches is still unusable in a live situation in some very rare and unlikely circumstances....for the vast majority of users its great!

If only. I've already found the patch switching lag to be an intrusive problem with the Helix at rehearsal and I'm sticking with gigging my older (but virtually instant patch changing) Line 6 gear for now. I came perilously close to returning the Helix because of this issue and trust that I don't end up regretting sticking with it in the expectation that Line 6 will address/improve the issue.

Can you point to point model an imaginary amp? :)

I agree though, we do need/deserve these to be added.

I am also concerned about the lag switching between patches. I currently use a dozen different patches live and don't want to have to find different methods of tap dancing for getting the sounds I need during songs - I would rather concentrate on playing. As yet I haven't used the Helix at a gig, but at rehearsal the lag/drop out is really noticeable and annoying on certain songs.

The place I bought the Helix has a one month return policy and I was very close to taking it back because of this. However, I do like it otherwise and hope Line 6 can improve the situation with future upgrades/work arounds so it looks as though I'm staying onboard.