PeterHamm

...I am also somewhat frustrated with current state of the art DSP still limiting how many amps, cabs, and effects I can have within a preset although this applies to all MFX currently on the market...

Easy problem to solve, though, the old fashioned way... the way we used to do it back in the day...

more gear... duplicates of stuff... not very economical though.

I guess my trepidation comes from my horrible experience with the XT Live which, admittedly, was a long time ago but it definitely left a bad taste in my mouth regarding Line 6's Pre-Yamaha approach to compressors. It seemed that they didn't understand how they worked at all - not by a long shot.

The difference between XT Live and HD (I had both) imho was like the difference between a Fiat and a Mercedes.

The difference between an XT Live and a Helix is more like the difference between a creaky bicycle and a Ferrari.

Seriously, the XT/X3 series of modelers was never really any good at "just FX". everything was a compromise up to that point. HD changed all that, where the FX (and imho the modeling) was top shelf. For Helix, they had to make another shelf above that top shelf.

bad video bad argument bad waste of time, his and ours.

Would you mind describing the ways?  I'm seriously considering the Helix but at $1500 and then possibly I need an L2t or something similar to go with it that's a lot of money, I could get a boutique amp and some pedals for not that much more and I don't want to be unhappy with this purchase.  gunpointmetal mentioned, "have all of that in a single patch and switch "channels" like the two-amp rigs in the 8th set-list" but since I don't have one I have an idea what that means but not 100% sure.  Currently I have an Amplifi 150 and it's good but not cutting it for what I want to do.  Basically I want to be able to play all the parts in any given song, say there's a chorus arpeggiated section, a crunchy rhythm section and a soaring sustainy lead part, I thought with the Helix I'd be able to switch between those three instantly.  If that's not the case then maybe it's not for me or I need to use it differently.  I'd like to see if I can get this done for around $3000 or thereabouts, the Helix & L2t would be like $2500 so that's at the low end of my budget but my feeling is I'd rather spend $3000 - $3500 and have it perfect than spend $2500 and still be lacking. 

One way is to switch between two paths, but I don't like that, because I too often want the same FX on both.

So another way is to have two different settings on the amp, one at heel down on an EXP (or with a footswitch off) and the other with toe down (or footswitch on). Then you can add a drive pedal and kick it into high gear beyond that.

The patch I use in this video gives you an idea of how you can do 3 different tones in one patch. In this case, one of the tones is an acoustic driven by the piezo on my Crowdster, but it could just as easily be another amp tone, perhaps kept clean so that you can have a clean and dirty amp tone side by side.

LA Studio Comp. I use it on every single chain.

I think it's on Ideascale, and I bet it's high on the list.

So if I want to switch patches within a song, say I'm playing a super clean, all treble funky chaka-chaka type thing and then in an instant I want to go into a crazy over-driven solo with delay and wah, there's going to be a lag time involved so I can't instantly switch to that for the solo and when it's over switch back to the funky clean treble sound/patch without a pause? 

No lag, you can very very easily switch between those two sounds (there are at least 2 or 3 ways I can think of) within one patch. EASY!

No spillover, just like the Axe FX II. Yes. Right decision.

I build patches that use every ounce of the horsepower in this unit.

I'm so glad they didn't put spillover in there, because it would have meant I would be more limited.

Honestly, the whole multi-amp channel thing can easily be accomplished with one model and a footswitch, switching between two different settings of the same model, and even adding in the Timmy or Klon or something, or an eq.

Not sure how much improvement in tone you're going to hear if you're only using amp tones, honestly. You'll gain a lot more flexibility, which you may or may not need. you'll gain ease of use (although only if you're doing esoteric things... the M13 is easier to use than any piece of gear I've seen like that).

The key to 4CM with Helix, from what I've seen here (not doing it myself) is setting those loops to instrument level.

That said, if you're happy with M13, you might be better served by supplementing it with some drive pedals or such.

Or think of it this way: The guys who could've spent a month adding L6 LINK to Firehawk 1500 can now spend a month making Helix better.  :)

Long time HD 500 owner (mine is from Sweetwater's very first batch, first day they shipped, still works great).

If you loved the 500 and don't have the money for the Helix, you will be happy with the 500X for a long time. It still sounds great in 2016. Mine is not for sale.

Now...

...imagine roughly twice the capability, editing so easy that if you're like me you will misplace the printed manual and won't even bother looking for it, 4 loops instead of 1, and noticeably better tone.

Is that worth 3X the price to you? Only you know the answer. 

I had to use my HD 500 for an event last weekend instead of Helix (which was all set up at my church and I wasn't going to have time to tear down and re-set up).

I was not disappointed. It was just peachy. But Helix offers so much more.

FRFR just means full range flat response. NO speaker is perfect in either of those cases, but in many cases, the powered wedges from companies like QSC and Yamaha and such have worked fine for this purpose for a very long time before we had them from the guys who are making them today.

And I have used acoustic guitar amps and keyboard amps to monitor through before. They work great, but don't tweak to them, tweak to the PA if you possibly can.

Well, I GIVE UP..... UNCLE... I returned my first helix due to things wrong on it, gave it a second chance. Bought my second. Everything seemed great or pretty good at home.. Then.... I took it out live, what a sonic night mare. Every patch to bassy or something. it was like the bass player was cranked and he wasn't even playing. Tried different guitars. Xlr out vs 1/4 out with direct boxes etc. I had to turn the bass down on everything to the point the patch sounded bad.. Low cuts didn't help either at helix or board. I had bought patches my own patches and different ir's but still the same outcome. Plus I had this weird latency problem between the monitor I was running via 1/4 outs and what came out the mains. Tried three times to get this to work live and no way Jose! I'm not bashing just letting you know that it might be great in your house and thru your headset, but a possible sonic nightmare out on stage, IMO. CAN YOU SAY FIREHAWK 1500.. Well need less to say no more helix, I'm :-(

What was the environment like in which you created your patches? Headphones by any chance?

...Why go FRFR if you're just gonna turn around and undo what it's designed for, and make it sound like the rig you just ditched? Want the "amp in a room" sound? Amps and rooms are readily available. Pick one of each, and season to taste...

Yup. The thing I like BEST about modeling is that there is no amp in the room.

The first time a modeler comes out with the ability to totally recreate the "amp in the room"... including moving all the air that is required for that to happen... it will be at the top of my list of things not to buy.

If I need an amp in the room, I buy an amp and find a room.

Agreed. A one modeler-specific FRFR cab wouldn't make sense. You're limiting your customer base right out of the gate. Besides, a "true FRFR" box shouldn't care what you're plugging into it anyway.

Yup. The fact is, you want an FRFR speaker to sound like your PA as much as possible. 

Otherwise, the sound might be great through the monitor, but not through the PA or vice versa. Either is a problem.

If someone sells an FRFR that only works with guitar modelers correctly... I would never buy it. because there must be something non Full-Range-Flat-Response about it, and that means I can be guaranteed to end up crafting sounds that won't sound good to my audience. I don't want that.

Pretty sure the answer is no. But with the editor moving banks around is ridiculously easy.

- as a power user of x3 I would expect a high end successer unit to deliver downwards compatibility as Priority 1...

With respect... I am reasonably sure that "downward compatibility" would be insanely limiting on the ability to create a whole new far more realistic sound engine, so not only do I guess it wasn't priority 1, but am hopeful it will never even be priority 10.

The only way to successfully deliver downward compatibility in a unit like this is to cripple it sonically compared to what would be possible. If Line 6 did that, I guarantee you they would have had a flop on their hands.

there are a handful of situations where I think my old HD still is a great solution, and so for the short term I am keeping it, but when I want to make the best sound possible, the HD 500 is not the solution I'll reach for now.

By comparison, for the very brief time I had the X3 and HD side by side, I realized quickly that I would never ever want to use the X3 again, the HD was THAT much better. At least the HD still sounds good to my ears next to Helix.

But backward compatibility? No. Please. Don't ever give us that...

What are you trying to accomplish? Using Helix as a recording interface where you can hook up multiple mics?

Sorry, beyond the scope of this product.

P.S.

About marketing strategies:

I'm curious and I'd like to know if your competitor Roland will follow you and make a step up to higher quality amp modelling and join the match you are playing vs kemper and fractal.

I would think with the surprising impact Helix has made, if Roland isn't fast-tracking something that is presumably already in the pipeline somewhere, they are missing an opportunity.

When asked a year ago if I thought a product in the 1 to 1.5 grand range was viable, I said No. I thought people would either buy Axe FX for more money or HD 500 for less. I was clearly wrong, as we now have Helix and (someday) AX8 competing in that space.

Then again... maybe that's all the competition you need in that space. What do I know?

Wonderful! Bookmarked!

I just looked that up. Intriguing. Is it a single driver?  Coaxial perhaps?

It is. And the nice thing about Coax is that it sounds the same no matter what angle you listen from. In other words, the thing that  makes guitar amps super cool (that as you move they sound different) is eliminated...

I know it is not for everyone and for many players not having some kind of guitar amp or FRFR behind them is a non-starter but I still think the most cost effective and lightest solution is going direct to the PA and outputting my guitar through the monitors.  There are less possible points of failure and with a decent PA and the mixer channel(s) for the Helix EQ'd properly or even flat I find the sound to be excellent. When I gig on someone else's PA I bring an amp or an L2m unless I truly trust the soundman to handle the Helix direct and know that there will be adequate monitoring for the entire band and me to hear my guitar.

Yup. If you can, just use what they got there. makes the sound guy your friend too.

I'll stick to my EON 610s @ 26lbs.

I've used 'em. Modeler's sound GREAT through them. My personal go-to monitor is a Verve 8ma, but they've been discontinued for some time.

Digital Igloo: You know, I had an idea like that once. A long time ago. 

 

Phil: (nonplussed) Oh really? What was it, DI?

 

Digital Igloo: Well all right. It was a... Jump to Conclusions processor. You see, there would be this guitar processor... that you would put on the floor. And it would have different... conclusions written on its scribble strips.... that you could jump on!

 

Phil: That is the worst idea I have ever heard in my life, DI.

I have to say my old Yamaha AG Stomp got some of the best acoustic sounds I have ever heard, direct into the PA. Now that Yamaha owns Line6 it seems like a no-brainer to work that technology into the Helix.  I would love to see an AG Stomp model on the Helix. On a side note, the AG Stomp provided optional 9v power out through a TRS (stereo 1/4) cable. This meant that with any acoustic-electric guitar that allowed power through a TRS cable, you could ditch your 9v batteries forever. This is technology I would like to see in every MFX unit and electric-acoustic produced. Those 9v batteries get expensive and if you forget to pull your guitar cable out they are drained by the time you pick up your guitar again. The same technology could also be used for electric guitars that use active pickups requiring 9v power. No more expensive batteries polluting the landfills and no more worrying about having to swap batteries or not having an extra during gigs.

Another AG Stomp fan.

I will NEVER part with mine, even though the Helix, with the IRs engaged, is beating it for natural sound. Yes, the TRS deal was awesome, and worked with my acoustic guitar so I didn't need batteries, which was way way cool (that's impossible with my 2-voice guitars, though, sadly).

In fact, I have to play two simple songs tonight at an Ash Wednesday service, and I will be using that with my Crowdster. Amazing sound. Not quite the same as IRs, but through a PA...? Just amazing. Better than any similar solution that has come along since.

Well, Line 6 probably would say they already have that covered.

http://line6.com/stagesource-pa-speaker/