tinorios

I never suggested that anyone should settle for stuff that doesn't work. And you have a concrete answer guaranteeing a free repair already...that's what the warranty is. So by all means pursue a warranty repair, or replacement once they've figured out a solution. But the reality is that this is really the only recourse anyone has when dealing directly with a manufacturer.

 

What I did say, is that you won't get your money back from an entity that you did not give it to directly in the first place, and I maintain that to be the case. Having said that, brow-beating retailers is a whole other ballgame. You might sweet talk GC into giving you a refund, cause that's where you bought it. They have your money, Line 6 doesn't. If you manage to do that, great. It means you can talk a good game...more power to you. Having worked in music retail for a number of years, I've seen this work numerous times. Some scream and yell, others take the smooth talking politician approach. But no matter how you choose to rattle your sabre, if you do it long enough you will eventually get what you want. You'll get it because in a retail environment, there comes a point where having you shut up and go away is far more valuable than the $800 (or whatever the amount is) that you're asking for.

 

But good luck getting Line 6 to cut you a check...if I'm wrong, so be it...but it would be the first time in history that a manufacturer that does not direct-sell to consumers handed out cash refunds directly to the end user. A credit, some kind of voucher for future purchases, maybe...but cash? Not in this life.

Good explanation, cruisinon2.

Are you really pretending to not understand how this works? Line 6 sells an item to an authorized dealer at some wholesale price, whatever that may be. At that point the game is over from their perspective...they won, a unit was sold. It could sit in sombody's stock room forever, and won't affect L6's bottom line. They got paid for the gear in your living room LONG before you walked into a store to purchase it. End of story. So no, they don't have your money and will not be giving it back to you no matter how nicely you ask, or how much "good will" it might generate. That's not how commerce works. Yamaha didn't buy Line 6 to accumulate vast reserves of "good will" and warm fuzzy feelings. "Good will" = RED INK on the quarterly reports. It's a long wait for a train that ain't coming.

With all due respect, you missed the point.

Don't shoot the messenger. And don't hold your breath waiting for the answer you want to hear. It ain't coming.

Sorry Siverhead. I didn't mean anything personal.

I'm not seeking a general answer but a specific one related only to this problem with all the qualifications and restrictions that I have tried to state.

Your comments are always welcome. I just got in debate mode.

Let me take another crack at this since I can't seem to get it off my mind.

All these posts were to lay the ground work to seek answers to three specific questions:

1. Does Line 6 have testing procedures that can recreate and predict which speakers will have the rattle?

2. Does Line 6 have speakers already made that can & could be tested that do not have this rattle and they can send those speakers to customers that need one right away?

3. Or, if no speakers without the rattle are available to swap, will Line 6 refund the money to those select customers that cannot wait for a final fix and are loosing gigs because they lack a functioning system?

I may be too dense and have missed these answers if they have already been provided. Also, I do not have this problem so I have not turned in a support case to Line 6. Therefore, I can not report Line 6 answers in this forum to those that are interested in this topic. To my knowledge, no one that has turned in a support case has reported any specific answers.

Because of that, I keep asking. I may or may not find answers, but if I do, I reserve the right to ask new questions.

I think you know the answer to that. The retailer has your money, not Line 6. As Line 6 has stated, they will fix the problem for all affected customers on an individual basis when the fix is ready. They won't give you a refund. Nor, I expect, would any manufacturer under similar circumstances.

 

In happens routinely in all industry sectors. Manufacturing problems are fixed by reputable manufacturers. Money is not refunded except within the original sales return period, which is a retailer feature - not the manufacturer.

So you mean to tell me that Line 6 makes all this equipment, sends them to retailers and they never give Line 6 any money.

Also, in their warranty requirements, Line 6 asks for an original receipt. So, if you buy a used Line 6 product on ebay or Craigslist still within the warranty period, you need the original receipt. I quote below:

"This warranty is extended to the original retail purchaser. This warranty can be transferred to anyone who may subsequently purchase this product provided that such transfer is made within the applicable warranty period and Line 6 is provided with the following items: (i) all warranty registration information (as set forth on the registration card) (ii) proof of the transfer within (30) days of the transfer purchase, and (iii) a photocopy of the original sales receipt. Warranty coverage shall be determined by Line 6 in its sole discretion."

Line6Tony

18 Apr 2014

Guys,

 

We're aware that some L2 model speakers are exhibiting a rattling noise in specific cases and applications. We have determined the root cause is the fan. We are aggressively working on a solution that will undergo extensive testing to ensure that:

 

· the noise problem is addressed

· the fan performs as expected

· no new issues are introduced

 

Although we’ve made this a high priority, we can’t commit to a time frame until we have a qualified solution in house. Once that work is complete, customers who report the problem to Line 6 Customer Service will be given appropriate guidelines for repair.

 

We will report a solution at the earliest opportunity, and we thank you for your continued patience.

What is your policy on refunding money to the persons that cannot wait for the qualified solution?

As far as I know, Line 6 doesn't sell anything directly to consumers, except various accessories and small parts...so technically they don't have your money. The retailer you bought it from does, and the best refund policy I've ever seen gives you 30 days from the date of purchase to get your money back. So you're more likely to win lotto than to have L6 cut you a check, nor is it particularly likely that any retailer will give you a refund 6 months from now if your gear develops a problem. That never happens. Nobody would be able to stay in business that way. Best you can hope for a is a warranty repair...and if it's five minutes past the warranty expiration, you'll probably be SOL. Just the way the world is...caveat emptor.

I was thinking of a one time, special case, because of this rattle, money back to preserve goodwill.

OK, Line 6 doesn’t have to return my money, legally. But does it make business sense to do it?

Returning money to me and others would cost Line 6 money. And it is easy to calculate how much. What is not easy to calculate is how much Line 6 is loosing in lost sales. From this thread and the other two threads discussing this rattle, I believe three members specifically stated they were going to buy L2x speakers and decided not to because of this rattle. I believe there were about four members very unhappy with the rattle problem that I believe would have wanted their money back. So, three lost sales vs. four captive, reluctant sales saved in this small sample. So, it looks like Line 6 is ahead. But, is it really? How many non-members, guests, read some of this, didn’t post because they can’t, or don’t want to, and didn’t buy?

And what of the risk that a disgruntled customer would write a bad review in Amazon.com, all those music equipment retailers, Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, etc. I’m not suggesting or encouraging anyone to do that, but how many lost sales?

wouldn’t it be better to reassure us, the customers, that Line 6 will replace a faulty speaker with one that doesn’t rattle if this rattle is only for a batch of speakers and Line 6 has testing procedures that can identify non-rattling speakers. Our that Line 6 will return our money if the rattle occurs and we wish to get our money back? And, that Line 6 will stop selling these speakers until the cure is settled on if Line 6 can’t figure out which speakers rattle if which don’t. I don’t know what’s best for Line 6. Line 6 has to determine what is best in the short term and in the long run.

As a Line 6 fanboy, with no apologies offered, I am unsettled by all of this. My StageScape/StageSource system has performed impeccably, above & beyond my expectations. It has survived a torrential downpour and heavy condensation that would have voided my warranty “due to liquid contaminationâ€. I don’t say this to rub it in the face of anyone experiencing this problem, or to incur favor from Line 6, but to imply that I’m trying to be impartial. But, I really can’t be impartial. I really can’t just keep on keeping on because I don’t have a problem with my system. Now.

But what about in the future? What about if it was me that had a problem? Can I trust Line 6 to repair the problem quickly, or to refund my money? I don’t know.

If I’m trying to get my money back for speakers with “the†rattle because I cannot wait for a final fix and my time to return the speakers to the retailer has expired, I’m going to have to deal directly with Line 6. So, what is the Line 6 money back guarantee or policy?

I couldn’t find it in their (this) website, or in the warranty papers that came with my speakers. Here’s what my warranty papers say, in part:

Title: “Line 6 Warranty Information Updated April 2005â€.

“Line 6 warrants that your new Line 6 product, when purchased at an authorized Line 6 dealer in the United States of America, shall be free of defects in materials and workmanship for a period of one (1) year from original date of purchase. Please contact your dealer for information on warranty and service outside of the USA.

During the warranty period, Line 6 shall, at its sole option, either repair or replace any product that proves to be defective upon inspection by Line 6.

Line 6 reserves the right to update any unit for repair and to change or improve the design of the product at any time without notice.â€

After a few more comments about use of reconditioned parts, who qulifies for the warranty & no warranty by others will be recognized, there is another paragraph that states:

“Service & repairs of Line 6 products are to be performed only at the Line 6 factory or a Line 6 authorized service center. Line 6 may require advanced authorization of repairs to authorized service centers. Unauthorized service, repair or modifications will void this warranty.â€

The warranty information in this website says the StageSource speakers is 36 months, 3 years, not the one year like the paper that came with my speakers says.

Money refund is not mentioned, only replacement of parts or complete unit. And, how long to repair? From the Service heading in the Support/Customer Service/Repair Information section: “Repair time can vary from weeks to months depending on the kind of repair and the availability of repair partsâ€.

Reading all of this tells me that, I ain’t getting my money back, I ain’t getting my speakers repaired fast, and I better not try fix them myself. Those are the legal requirements to protect Line 6 from lawsuits. 

But, what about the business and moral considerations to protect Line 6 and it customers?

I’ll consider that in my next post.

Suppose that all speakers rattle. For some people it is not a problem because of their application or situation. But for others it is a very big problem leading to cancellation of gigs and loss of potential & actual income.

Some users could wait until Line 6 settles on the final fix for the speaker fan rattle. Some users could, with a lot of effort & aggravation, come up with a temporary, stopgap solution to get by until the final fix is available, or go back to their old equipment, also temporarily. But, let’s go to the main point of this post and say that some of us cannot wait until the final fix at some undetermined time in the future. Let’s say I want my money back. What are my options?

Most retailers on-line and brick & mortar, have a 30 day money back guarantee. Amazon.com has partial refund, for example, 80% of item’s price if item is in original condition past the return window (of 30 days), 50% of item’s price for items that are damaged, missing parts, not in original condition, or have obvious signs of use for reasons not due to an Amazon.com error.

As another example, Musiciansfriend.com has a 45 day return policy. The original free shipping cost is deducted from your refund. Sweetwater.com says return “within a fair amount of time from the shipping date (usually 30 days)â€. The original shipping shipping cost is also deducted from your refund. ZZSounds.com has a 45 days after order is delivered. “In the case of an outright return for refund, we refund the full price of the product, but you are responsible for return shipping on the product you are returning and we do not credit any original shipping charges toward the exchangeâ€.

I checked my local store where I bought my mixer and two L3m speakers on December 2012 and their return policy is 30 days return less 10% re-stocking & processing fees. I did not check national retail chains like Guitar Center and Sam Ash because they are not available to me in my remote location.

These examples suffice to determine that for anything longer than about a month and a half, I will have to deal directly with Line 6 to get my money back. I will investigate that in my next post.

Suppose that some speakers rattle and some don’t. And that a test is available that can determine which speakers rattle and which don’t conclusively & objectively. And by rattle I mean “the†rattle. The objectionable, performance killing rattle that we’ve been discussing in this and other threads. Not just any kind of rattle.

It seems to me that if speakers could be tested to separate the ones that rattle from the ones that don’t, the ones that don’t could be sent to customers that have speakers that do rattle without going thru this trial and error, mainly error, of returning speakers, sometimes multiple times, back and forth, until the person gives up returning speakers, or the person gets lucky & receives a good speaker. This takes an enourmous amount of time, effort and money. Not just on the individual, but on the retailer or manufacturer, depending on who gets the faulty speaker. The only people that benefit from this unproductive & wasteful back and forth are the shipping companies that get paid both ways, back, and forth.

This testing of speakers to determine which ones don’t rattle to replace rattling speakers to customers that are trying to swap theirs would work if not all speakers rattle. If the rattle is present in all recently manufactured speakers, then there would be new speakers without the rattle to send to customers once all the “oldâ€, non-rattling speakers are used up. This leads me to my next question in my next post.

While checking in the internet searching on different speaker manufacturers name and the word “rattleâ€, I came across a website, Music Player Network, that had several forums. In one of them, a keyboard forum, a forum moderator started a topic on the “Line 6 Stage Source L2t†last July 2013. And, the rattle problem came up in this forum in January 2014. On the 1st of February, one J.Dan suggested an interesting test. I copied it below:

“I’m not denying that you’re experiencing what you are, but I’m guessing others don’t have the same applications that cause the phenomenon. Specifically, it is probably some resonant frequency. There’s one way to determine whether it’s a change in manufacturing, or a difference in application. Do you have any kind of sweepable frequency generator? Like, where you can set a sine wave to a specific amplitude, and sweep the frequency and say “the buzz occurs between X Hz and Y Hz at a level of Zâ€? Then people could replicate the test and see if it’s all L2t’s or recent ones. That would be valuable info. I know most people don’t have that kind of equipment, but if you know any body who has anything that you could borrow, that would be very useful informationâ€>

Well, I have an app for that! And I decided to do the test on my L3m’s.

I set up my speakers like they’re normally used, as a PA system. The L3s subwoofer on bottom in the “tall†position, with its longest side vertically, the long Line 6 pole threaded in the single female thread connector on the top of the L3s speaker, and the L3m on top. Two sets of speakers in my 20’ x 16’ )6m x 4.88m) Living Room with the speakers about 10’ (3m) apart along the long (north) wall. Everything was connected with Line 6 brand L6 link cable to the M20d mixer.

I used my iPod Touch (although the iPad would have worked just as well) using Studio Six Digital Audio Tools app with the Signal Generated selected in the Utilities section. I connected the iPod to the Aux input of the M20d mixer with a cable with 1/8†(3.5mm) connectors. I set the level in the Aux channel to zero, the level on the outputs just below zero and the level in the signal generator app to about 3/4 of max. The speaker knobs were all set at 12 o’clock position like recommended in other threads in this forum. I set the signal generator to sine wave (it also does square wave, white & pink noise), to “fine†setting (it also does full & 1/3 octave), and output mode to Mono (it also does left, right and balanced). Then, I turned off Mute & started the test.

I didn’t get any rattles until around 80 Hz, getting worse around 83 Hz. I couldn’t find what was rattling for a while until I finally figured out it was coming from inside the fireplace chimney. I kept increasing the frequency until around 98 Hz another rattle. This one ended up being one of the two windows on the west wall of the room. Kept increasing frequency until the next rattle, a turntable behind me at the mixer at 129 Hz. The turntable rattled again at 195 Hz and 210 Hz. Then, no more rattles. I stopped around 800 Hz because my ears were getting tired.

Throughout the test, I kept going back behind the speakers to feel the back metal plate where all the connections are & where the fan might be. Pressing against the plate would not change the sound so I took that to mean that my speakers are not rattling. At least not with this set up.

Now, if it can be established conclusively that some speakers rattle and some don’t, this raises a question that I will ask in my next post.

I want to try to add perspective to this thread.

1. Every speaker cabinet from every manufacturer will buzz or rattle under the right sonic conditions. We know this because we had no problem generating buzzes and rattles in every one of our competitors speakers that we have tested, all speaker builders know this all to well. Once you know what combination of sound and power it takes to create the buzz, then you can recreate it over and over again as well as teach others to do the same. 
2. If you happen to be a user who happens to use any speaker from any manufacturer in a way that causes an undesired rattle, feedback, frequency bump, or if your speaker turns out to be too heavy, too big, too small or in any other way inappropriate for your use then you should contact the retailer you purchased it from or customer service and work with them to resolve things to your satisfaction. 

 

If any speaker you have from Line 6 is not performing to your expectations due to some kind of electrical or mechanical issue then you should contact customer service to address your individual issue. If your speakers are working well for your application then please keep on keeping on.

Thank you for your clear reply.

My Line 6 speakers are working well for my application so I'm going to keep on keeping on!

I expect that right now, since there is no corporate statement other than the above, things are being handled on an individual basis thought the normal support ticket route. Anyone experiencing this issue should open a support ticket. They will receive an individualized answer to your question.

Thank you for your reply. It is now clear to me.

I would like to hear from those suffering with speaker rattles how the company resolved your problem, right now, before the final fix. Everything I have read about Line 6 support in this forum has been positive and I would hope that will continue with this particular problem.

If enough persons post their experience for how their problem was resolved, we might be able to figure out what the Line 6 policy is regarding this unfortunate issue. Still, a clear corporate statement might have saved a lot of agony on the part of those experiencing this problem. In the deleted thread, one could not an increasing level of desperation that could have been avoided had the company been more forthright. Maybe this experience will be a motivating factor for better performance in the future. 

There's no need to let people suffer emotional and financial loss. Basically, that's the point I'm trying to make. I hope I'm clear on it.

Say you are a customer with speakers with this rattling problem, you are losing gigs because of this problem and you cannot wait for a final solution which at this time is TBD. What can this customer do, or what will Line 6 do for this category of user, right now?

Can the customer return the noisy speakers for a full refund?

Is the company capable of testing speakers to determine which ones rattle and which ones don't?

Can the company replace the speakers that rattle with speakers that don't rattle right now?

Just curious. My speakers don't rattle but it is not clear from all these posts, present and missing ones, what alternatives are available right now.

One or two of us have posted our solutions for stage space saving mounting options. These postings have often been as part of an existing topic that has no relationship to mounting solutions.

 

So, I'm creating this topic as a central point of reference in the vain hop that it might give others ideas about how to tackle the nightmare that is rigging up a small (or large!) stage where a multitude of lighting and speaker stands are inappropriate.

 

 

Awesome topic and suggestions, Si.

You are still my hero!

Hi Velok,

I'm terribly sorry to hear this.

Are you using the speakers as a PA FOH, as monitors, or as guitar amp cabs?

Is the rattle present in all the different functions, or confined to just one?

Wow, this is amazing. I can understand how frustrated you must be.

Tino

 

Perhaps the best demonstration of this effect can be heard where no boundaries exist to either help or hinder, in which case audiences can be comprehensively amazed at the distances over which coherent, full range audio can be "thrown" from what appears to merely be a single pair of StageSource L3 mid/tops in their normal FOH positions on either side.

 

That sort of "magic" is readily achievable at outdoor festivals and the like by pair of L3s subs actually doing most of the "heavy lifting" from their "invisible" position, ...laid sideways, but "stacked" on top of each other, dead centre and fully under our high stage's leading edge, from where they can not only derive maximum "leverage and loading" from the ground on which they're standing, but also achieve the maximum and most evenly dispersed (staggering) "thump" as a result of radiating from that single point. 

 

What if there is no high stage to put the subwoofers under? Everybody, the band and audience, are on the street, which is gently curved to direct the rain water to the storm sewers on the edges. What is the best arrangement of the subwoofers then?

Thank you for your post. As always, mind blowing and thought provoking. I thought you were on vacation or something because you've been mighty quiet lately. But, it is good to get the thunder from down under back!

I was just really wanting to comment on the "try it free" trial that is being "recommended" so much and share my experience.

 

I wish it were a better deal...

Yes. It is very disappointing.

I signed up for the "try it for free" trial when Line 6 sent me an email about it.  When I was finally contacted by my local dealer, this is what my experience entailed:

 

This "try it for free" trial is really not a try it for free - you still have to use your credit card to put down a deposit - which is the amount of the speaker itself.  Then you only get one day to try it out. And then return it.

 

With the multitude of other retailers - Guitar Center, Zzounds.com, Sweetwater.com, AmericanMusicalSupply.com, etc - having a 30 - 45 day satisfaction / return policy, this "try it for free" trial from Line 6 really isn't "all that".  I could order from zzounds or american musical supply on their "payment plans" where they split the payment into 3 or 4 installments and shell out less money than the Line 6 "try it for free" program.

 

At least that's my experience.  Maybe others have had a different experience...

 

Tom

Hi Tom,

Thank you for your feedback. I guess that program sounded "too good to be true". If one is allowed only one day to try out the speaker, that is not enough. Also, charging your credit card right off the bat is not appealing either. Like the old saying, the devil is in the details.

Buying the speaker on line to try it out and then, returning it is not entirely painless either. You have to pay shipping for the return. Returning one L3s from Los Angeles to say, Sweetwater in Fort Wayne, Indiana is about $87.63 for an 83 pounds package, maybe with additional charges. The smallest amount was $42.87 for someone closer. The UPS information on cost was a little overwhelming, but at least I wanted to have an idea of the cost. Also, I think Sweetwater will charge you for the original shipment to you if you return an item to them (Sweetwater). This is a quote from their "No Hassle" Return Policy: ..."If your purchase was eligible for free shipping, the shipment cost will be deducted from your credit or refund." They might get better rates as a volume customer to UPS or whoever they use than we would as residential customers, but it still going to add to the cost of trying out the speaker.

So, it looks like there is no really good way to try out the speakers under your own conditions, specially if you live far from big cities with large music stores that may carry the speakers in their inventory. May be not so much your case and Larry's living in LA, but certainly my case living in my town. 

So, maybe my suggestion was not a good one after all. But, I did enjoy the Bob Dylan reference.

Based on Ron's, Litesnsirens' and Jim's excellent recommendations which I wholeheartedly agree with, and to paraphrase even more (Nike this time):

Just Do It!

Since we are in a paraphrasing mood ...

"The answer my friend is blowing in the wind. The answer is blowing in the wind."

Why don't you avail yourself of Line 6 free speaker trial as explained by Line6Tony here: http://line6.com/support/forum-62/announcement-21-stagesource-speakers-experience-what-amazing-sounds-like-for-free/

Play them in your courtyard. Play them in your church.  Play them in the wind.

You will know the answer!

 

"I only have one condenser mic so I can't try it out."

 

One is all you need! I've tried one condenser mic in 1-6 and it works. I've tried it in 7-12 and it doesn't. The desk is saying Phantom power is on, but no power is getting through. It's not the issue:

• Status of the phantom power of channel 7- 12 was not saved with setups on previous firmware version.

 

Hey Malce,

I tried it with my one Shure SM94. I put it in Channel 1 & tried different combinations of 48V on & off. Then, I repeated it channel 12. Your post seemed to lead to the problem being with both banks on with condenser mics connected to both banks. I couldn't duplicate your situation because of my one mic.

Below is a table of what I found.

         Bank1-6     Bank7-12         Mic                   Output

          48V             48V              Location              Sound

1.   OFF            OFF              B1-6                    NO
2.   ON              OFF              B1-6                    YES
3.   OFF            ON                B1-6                    NO
4.   ON              ON               B1-6                    YES
5.   OFF             OFF             B7-12                   NO
6.   ON              OFF              B7-12                   NO
7.   OFF             ON               B7-12                  YES
8.   ON               ON              B7-12                  YES

​With both banks on, the mic still worked while connected to channel 12. So both banks of my mixer are working with only one mic. That's as far as I can go. 

Hope this helps you. At least the problem isn't with all the M20d's.

By the way, making a table in here was hard. It reminded me of doing one in a typewriter. You guys do remember typewriters, right?

I just watched your video. Very nice, Dave!

How did you mic the setup? Did you use all the mic channels?

Make sure you are running the latest firmware. I recall an issue involving phantom power that was resolved in a firmware update. I can't recall whether it was exactly this issue, but it's worth checking.

It was update from version 1.0 to version 1.1, Silverhead. See the paste below from Firmare 1.1 Update information in the Knowledge Base: 

• Status of the phantom power of channel 7- 12 was not saved with setups on previous firmware version.

The problem Malce is having needs to be investigated by Line6 to determine if it is systemic (all M20d's have the same problem), or something unique to Malevans mixer.

I only have one condenser mic so I can't try it out.