littlespaceman

The main reason I sold my Catalyst Mk 1 is that the FX loop was fixed in place pre the effects block, meaning the Catalyst was useless with a looper as any delay effect you added would affect the entire loop, resulting in a complete mess of noise. In comparison the Boss Katana software allows you to change the fx loop position per preset, so you can place it pre or post the effects. 
 

Does anyone know if the Catalyst firmware update and/or the new CX amps have this feature?

Ok, so I've just noticed that the PC has a physical 'Low Cut' switch on the back - I've never noticed it before! - and the used PC has that 'Low Cut' switch set to on. So problem solved, thank you all for the suggestions and help!

On 12/28/2022 at 5:35 PM, PaulTBaker said:

this may be completely off base, but R2DR2 (or something like that, sorry) has posted about a problem with the treble/tweeter something not working correctly in some cases.  Maybe the treble trim?  You could do a search for that or just look in the Power Cab section.  He talks about it a lot.

 

Maybe that is it or maybe that was only for the PC212+....sorry to be so vague!

 

And I'm sure you have tried each PC by themselves without being hooked to each other?  are you connecting them with the l6link? 

 

Good luck finding it.  Please post what you find! 

I'm actually using them with a Quad Cortex (shhh, might get in to trouble here!) so no L6 Link... But thanks for the info about R2D2's post, I'll look for it...

Curious to know if anyone else has experienced this; I have just picked up a (second hand) PC 112+ to go with one I bought new some years ago, to run as a stereo rig. To my surprise, the second hand one (although it's used it's in excellent condition) sound slightly 'different' to my original one; it doesn't sound bad, but it doesn't sound quite as good; a bit more treble-y, and not quite as full sounding. It's a subtle difference but I noticed it enough to check the settings carefully; I'm using both in Flat mode, and as far as I can see the settings are identical. Also both are running the latest firmware (v2.something as far as I can recall)

Any thoughts, anyone?

I've been asking this question for months; I was then made aware that no-one from Line 6 monitors this forum (seems odd to me that on a Line 6 forum no-one from Line 6 monitors!) so I posted on Idea-Scale. No response from anyone in Line 6, and a few angry replies from people telling me I'm the one with the problem for criticising the Catalyst for what IMHO is a flaw in the design. Not sure why people get so angry about these things but there you go...

Yes, IMHO the FX loop being before the on board modulation effects is a major flaw of the Catalyst amps, although for some reason some people feel the need to angrily tell me on this forum that I'm the one with the problem because I bought an amp that doesn't do what I wanted it to do...

Well it's taken me ages to work this out, largely because I haven't played with the amp for a while (I find it not as user-friendly as I would like) but I've now worked out the best way to use a Looper pedal in the FX loop and also use the onboard delay, WITHOUT the delay affecting everything you've recorded in your loop and therefore sounding awful.

To recap, the problem is

1) If you set the on board FX to POST, this places them post the preamp and importantly, post the FX Loop. Unfortunately this means that everything you have recorded on a looper pedal, in the FX loop, is affected by the on board FX when you turn them on...

2)...unless you set the FX to PRE. But have you ever heard delay before a distorted preamp? Sounds horrible.

This was always the stumbling block for me; you can't therefore use the onboard FX with an looper in the FX Loop to record a rhythm track, and then solo over the top, if you also want to use the onboard delay.

So the solution? Well, it's stupidly simple really - use an external distortion pedal and have the onboard FX set to PRE! This places the drive/boost at the very front of the signal chain, so even when set to PRE the onboard delay is after the distortion, so you don't get the problems of delay-before-distortion. And because you now have the delay BEFORE the looper (in the FX loop) you now don't have the problem of having the delay affecting everything you've recorded on your looper.

So, to summarise - it works. Is it ideal? IMHO no, because I still think not being able to choose the position of the FX loop in software is a major limitation, and it seems strange that the only workaround for this issue is to use external boost/drives on an amp that has them built in; but of course you only have limited control over the onboard boost/drives so using an external one is not such a bad option after all perhaps...

This might help answer your question

On 10/14/2022 at 4:47 PM, rd2rk said:

 

As long as the model you choose has the USB Host function it should work. The Katana50 is similar to the Cat60 in that it does not have MIDI DIN connectors, and they have a model made for the Kat50 so I would say so.

 

I would NOT (despite what some internet geek/wizards might say) depend on Bluetooth for ANYTHING! I have the Xsonic Airstep BW for use with my Waza Air Headphones, and it disconnects constantly. That's in the living room of my 1 bedroom apartment! Annoying and creativity inhibiting, to say the least!

I'm still waiting for an Xsonic firmware to allow the Airstep Multi to act as a USB host for the Catalyst 60. It's been quite a long time coming, and I believe they are still working on it, but I am losing patience and therefore I am thinking of selling the Catalyst. I don't want the Cat 100 as it has the same issue that I don't like about the Cat 60, which is to say that the FX loop is not useable if you wish to place a looper pedal and use the onboard time based effects, as the FX loop is placed BEFORE the built in effects. 

This means that if you record a rhythm track on a looper, placed in the FX loop, and then want to add a lead track over the top, turning the built in delay on or off will also affect anything that has already been recorded to the looper. 

Yes, it’s definitely true that the other amp I’d get(Boss Nextone Special) if I was to exchange the Cat is a very different beast, both in concept, use and price, so some might consider it an odd choice. 
But they do sound absolutely fantastic!

On 6/13/2022 at 12:51 AM, rd2rk said:

 

So, when you switch channels, if you look at the Cat's Panel, you don't see the LED of whatever is assigned to FS2 (Boost or FX) flash once for, like a ms or two?

The support guy I talked to tried it with his LFS2 and couldn't duplicate the problem, but a reliable user on TGP says his LFS2 does it.

I'm waiting for my LFS2 to get here, and support guy said he'd try his BOSS pedal over the weekend, so I should know more by Tuesday.

it’s just gone midnight here in London, and I’ve crept downstairs to try this out (otherwise I probably wouldn’t be able to sleep, ha ha)

Funnily enough, when the amp is very first turned on, with the Boss FS6 connected, the very first press of the button that changes channel, does cause the boost or whatever else is assigned to the other foot switch to momentarily engage (as you suggest, it is less than a second) however, on every subsequent press of the channel change foot switch after that, it does not happen. 
 

It is probably worth mentioning that - IF you are using a single TRS cable, see attached pic - the footswitches operate in the opposite sense to how I would expect them to, so footswitch A is boost or effect, and footswitch B is channel change. Changing the polarity on FS6, does not change this.

However if you are using a Y cable, and connecting the TRS end at the amp in to the mono A and B jacks on the pedal I believe it operates the other way around 

On 6/13/2022 at 12:00 AM, rd2rk said:

 

Or it can be a simple grab'n'go amp that's actually 6 two channel amps in one with BASIC FX and XLR out with 3 cab sims. 

A perfectly valid point; but my issue with this is that the Cat being a multiple ‘2 channel amp’ box is itself the subject of much debate (see other threads here), largely because they haven’t implemented this properly either; so if I was to change  Amp 1 (ie Bank 1) Channel A to B and then I wanted  to move to another ‘2 channel amp’ by selecting Amp 2 (ie Bank 2) rather than switch to Amp/Bank 2 as a new amp, and start you off with Amp 2, Channel A, it takes you to Channel B because that is what you had selected in the previous Amp/Bank. Again that seems nonsensical (not just to me!)

I’ve used L6 products for a long time too, so while I partly trust them to resolve this sort of thing I think it’s a fair argument to say that having been in the game a long time they shouldn’t be releasing products that need issues like this resolving.

On 6/13/2022 at 12:00 AM, rd2rk said:

 

Quite to the contrary. I own a PC212+ which I got after not especially liking the PC112+. FRFR and AITR are different things. If you use a Powercab in LF RAW mode (no Hi Freq driver) it IS an AITR. I didn't like either the LF RAW or the FRFR on the PC112+

Without wishing to teach you to suck eggs, have you raised the input levels on the PCab?

I came across a video recently showing how one guy set up his power cabs to about +6 dB, and then uses the volume of his modeller at a set position, and having done that on my power cab I have to say my modeller (Headrush) sounds much better and more natural than it did before - in short it sounds great and although the Cat as a PC substitute is ok, it doesn’t sound nearly as good as the PC now I have it set up better. 

On 6/12/2022 at 11:03 PM, rd2rk said:

 

To be clear, L6 never claimed that the amp was suitable for your application, and they're not likely to want to take the time to figure out how to make a third party device work with Catalyst in a way that the Catalyst was not intended to be used.

 

 

Thanks for the reply. I suppose if I was trying to do something completely outlandish with the Catalyst, then I would be more in agreement with you, but what I’m trying to do - use a looper in the FX loop, and still be able to use the on-board effects - surely has to be one of the most common applications for an FX Loop in guitar amps today. And most other brands implement the FX loops on their amps to allow this, so it just seems like an opportunity missed for Line 6 not to do the same. 

it is a significant problem for me with the  Catalyst, which is a shame because in every other way I like the amp very much. The best solution would be that it is fixable via firmware.

I have posted on ideascale about this, but I have yet to know what the answer is. If I was to summarise however, I would argue that if Line 6 did make the position of the Fx loop switchable like the Boss amps  do, no one would complain, but the fact that they haven’t does cause reason to - I can’t believe I’m the only person on the planet that has an issue with this. 
Another way of looking at it is that they have created the Catalyst to be a great value, great sounding amp, which implies it will attract a wide target audience. Yet the way the effects loop doesn’t play nicely with loopers, which are generically extremely widely used pedals, seems entirely counterintuitive. 

And the idea of returning the amp is a valid one, and believe me I consider it most days - but whether I do or don’t, I wouldn’t think that sort of conversation is what Line 6 intended people to be having about the Catalyst because - at the moment at least (I’m being optimistic that L6 care about my opinion and/or that a firmware update is capable of resolving this) - the marketing claim is that it is a simple and straightforward amp to use, yet not being able to use a looper with the onboard effects (which are a major selling point for the Catalsyt) seems non-sensical to me.

On 6/12/2022 at 8:25 PM, rd2rk said:

but has a faulty FS implementation (momentary triggering of FS2 when channel switching).

I use the Catalyst with a BOSS FS6 footswitch and I don't have this problem...

On 6/12/2022 at 8:25 PM, rd2rk said:

 

FWIW - I don't believe for a minute that the target market is people who would otherwise buy a Katana.

I've had two Katanas - the 100 MKI and the Artist MKII. They are VERY different amps for a similar but different market - all-in-one every effect known to man with comprehensive floor control.

 

I believe that the target market is people who want a simple inexpensive good sounding grab & go amp with BASIC FX that can be used as an AITR solution for users of more advanced modelers such as Helix. Most of which have MIDI.

That's why I got it.

 

Purchased after doing my due diligence, I found the amp to be everything I expected with the exception of the FS operation.

I didn't discover that problem (or the panel switch problem) until after the return period because I use MIDI.

That is to say, the amp does everything it claims to IF YOU USE MIDI, but has a faulty FS implementation (momentary triggering of FS2 when channel switching).

I think they should standardize the way that the panel switches work to match the way MIDI works (switching channels reverts to saved preset).

I think THAT'S a bug (panel channel switch does NOT return to saved preset) that CAN be fixed with a FW update. I could be wrong.

 

The FS problems need to be fixed quickly especially for the users of the CAT60 who don't have the MIDI option unless they spend another $100 on a MIDI HOST Box and another $XXX on a floor controller. They bought the basic configuration and shouldn't have to do that. Any momentary FS should just work.

 

I'm awaiting arrival of my LFS2 so I can test if that solves the FS problem (momentary triggering of FS2 when channel switching).

I'll be posting my results, and the results of my communications with L6 support concerning both the FS behavior and the panel switch problem.

A couple of things; 

I'm intrigued you don't think the Cat is designed to rival the Kat; I may have fallen for the hype on You Tube that this is supposed to be Line 6's attempt to grab some of that market. Personally I don't like the sound of the Kat, but I do like the way you can configure the position of the FX loop etc. 

What I don't understand is the concept of the Catalyst being both a grab and go amp with basic FX, AND an AITR solution for modellers; as a grab and go it sounds good but IMHO isn't user friendly because of some of the issues we are discussing here (for example the channel switching issue - not something I want to have to deal with in what is supposed to be a simple and easy to use amp) As an AITR, yes it's a solution but why would you want to use a £240 amp with a £1200 unit like a Helix, when the amp isn't FRFR? Surely you'd then end up having to either create your Helix presets using monitors, and accept that it sounds different if you play it through your Catalyst, or you end up tweaking your Helix presets when you play it through the Cat, only to find it doesn't sound like you thought it would through a PA, which presumably if you have a Helix is what you're going to play through when/if you use it live. In other words, it's nice that it can be used as a powered speaker but to my ears it doesn't replace the PowerCab.

In terms of due diligence, I thought I'd done mine too, but sadly neither the L6 website not the Cat manual gives you as much information as for example Boss do, about things like the position of the FX Loop - so I was surprised and disappointed when I found that I can't use a looper in the FX loop, AND use the onboard effects, without those effects affecting the entire loop itself (presumably because the FX loop is placed before the onboard fx, and not after them) And I only found that out at home because it simply isn't possible to try all the things I want to try with the amp in a local guitar shop. I'd also go as far as to say that due diligence is hard to achieve when the sales pitch / marketing / website themselves are a bit misleading. 

Please understand I'm not trying to be antagonistic here; I'm just becoming increasingly disappointed in the functionality of the Catalyst (not the sounds, I think they're pretty good) and it seems to me that some aspects of the amp are flawed conceptually - but I'm happy to stand corrected if I have misunderstood things (for example my issue with the fx loop position)

On 6/12/2022 at 1:29 AM, rd2rk said:

 

Nobody from L6 hangs out here. Support Tickets and Ideascale are your only hope.

Didn't know that, thanks for the info

On 6/12/2022 at 1:27 AM, rd2rk said:

I think that your confusion may be caused by a misunderstanding of the nature of BANKS vs CHANNELS.

Nowhere in the manual does L6 make this obvious.

 

Catalyst has 12 PRESETS. It does not have true CHANNEL switching or snapshots, only PRESET switching.

A BANK consists of 2 PRESETS which can be accessed directly via the footswitch using a "PRESET PREVIOUS/PRESET NEXT" function.

IOW - if you're on Channel A the FS takes you to Channel B and vice versa, mimicking the actions of the A/B switches on the panel.

But what's really happening is that on BANK 1 the FS (or A/B switch) toggles PRESET 1/PRESET 2, on BANK 2 the FS toggles PRESET 3/PRESET 4 etc...

 

Firstly thank you for the very helpful reply. 

I don't actually think I'm getting confused though, even if I have misused terminology in my post. I do understand that the amp doesn't have proper Channel switching , but instead has Preset switching, BUT the amp is sold as being a '2 Channel' amp in the publicity; from the Line 6 website "The Catalyst^® family includes three dual-channel combo amplifiers that perform like traditional guitar amps" (my underlining)

FWIW I like the way you can choose any amp to save in any 'Channel', that's a neat idea. And the app reinforces the idea that it's a pseudo 2 Channel amp, because when you use the app to select a BANK, you then have the option of 'Ch A / B' in each Bank. So although you say 'This is true ONLY if you use the panel controls' it is also true if you use the app.

So overall I see the concept of the Catalyst as being like you actually have 6 fantasy amps to choose from; each amp is 2 channel and you can select whichever of the Cat models you want to save in each channel position.

But it is exactly because it is designed to mimic a traditional 2 Channel amp that I am puzzled by the way that 'selecting a new amp' (ie changing bank) takes you 

to whichever channel was selected in the Bank that you've come from rather than take you to Channel A as a starting point in the new Bank (which is where you would be if you turned on an amp; my analogy for selecting a new Bank in the Catalyst)

Sadly this adds to a growing list of things with the amp that are causing me to find it less and less user friendly (my issue with the FX Loop being positioned in front of the onboard effects and how this makes the amp unusable with a looper in the FX loop is probably the main one - if you are working with the Line 6 Dev team, I'd love to get your thoughts on this one)

I'm puzzled by the way the Catalyst behaves when you changes a preset. There are 2 things in particular here that just seem quite odd to me;

1) WHEN YOU CHANGE PRESET THE AMP CHANGES TO WHICHEVER CHANNEL YOU HAD SELECTED IN THE PREVIOUS PRESET, RATHER THAN DEFAULTING TO CHANNEL A IN THE NEW PRESET

Let's say in Preset 1, I change from Channel A to B. I then want to choose another preset. I expect the new preset to default to Channel A, but it doesn't - instead it switches to whichever Channel I had selected in the previous preset at the time I changed. So if I was on Channel A, the new preset will be on Channel A, but if I was on Channel B then Channel B of the new preset is selected. This makes no sense to me, and causes great confusion; surely the point of a preset is that it will always be in exactly the same state when you select it, you shouldn't have to remember what Channel of the previous preset you were on just to make sure you don't get the wrong Channel on the new preset.

2) THE SAME IS TRUE OF BOOST

Let's say on Preset 1 I turn the boost on. I then go to Preset 2, which is saved with NO boost. But because it was on when I left Preset 1, it remains on when Preset 2 loads up. Again this makes absolutely no sense; if I save a preset, I want it to be in exactly the same state I saved it in, every time I select it - it's not meant to be a random lottery or guessing game.

No other modeller I've used does this, and I can't see any benefit for this so can someone please explain if I'm missing something here. 

LINE 6: CAN THIS BE RESOLVED BY A FIRMWARE UPDATE PLEASE?

Ok, well that's uncanny - I've just logged in to post questions to Line 6 about to issues with the Catalyst; one of them is this thread about the position of FX Loop, and the other, which I was going to start a separate thread about was going to be - well, exactly what you said; you turn a boost on in a preset, change to another preset that does NOT have the boost on, and the boost remains on from the previous preset. Yep, just like you said, 'WHAT??!'

I'll start a thread on this, this surely can't be the intended design - as you say, no other modeller I've ever used does things this way, why when you change to a new preset would you want it to load in a different configuration to the way it was saved? It's totally pointless.

Regarding this problem being what causes the problem with the position of the FX loop, unfortunately that's not the solution; when I have a looper playing through the FX Loop of the Catalyst, I am not experiencing the issue where the onboard delay etc affect the loop when I change presets; the loop is also affected when you manually turn on off delay/modulation etc within the same preset, which surely means the problem is that the amp FX Loop is placed BEFORE the onboard effects.

CAN WE HAVE SOME INPUT HERE FROM LINE 6 PLEASE? IS IT POSSIBLE TO HAVE A FUTURE FIRMWARE THAT ALLOWS THE USER TO CHANGE THE FX LOOP POSITION (AS FOR EXAMPLE IN THE KATANA AND NEXTONE AMPS) OR IS IT FIXED IN PLACE AND CAN'T BE CHANGED. 

This current configuration is problematic for me, and makes it impossible to use this all-in-one amp as an all-in-one amp, if you are using a looper pedal, which I imagine a lot of people will do.

I have both a PowerCab 112+ and a Cat 60w. I've recently had a chance to compare them directly, using a modeller (Headrush) as I wondered if I could get rid of the PC, because the Catalyst would do it all - be an easy to use every day amp that I can plug in to and play when I've got a spare 15 minutes, but also be a great way to give a modeller the 'amp in the room' feel. 

My first impressions are, sadly, that no, the Cat is not a replacement for the PC; it's easier to use (less cables etc to plug in for a quick jam, and as I've discovered if you have young kids, time is precious, a rig that takes even 60 seconds to plug in and play doesn't get used much!) but the PowerCab sounded noticeably better, IMHO; the Cat sounded slightly muddier in comparison. I'll try it some more using the Global EQ on the Headrush (which of course slightly defeats the point, because ideally you've done all that in each patch in your modeller, and don't want to have to do it again) but I'd say If you only had the Cat then you'll probably be really happy with it as a power amp. But if you compare the two, the PC sounds much better. Again, this is all IMHO of course.

ps, I would say that if you have both, the Cat makes a nice/cheap second speaker for a (slightly coloured) stereo rig

I thought that all amps with onboard effects had their FX loops placed in the chain so that anything you place in the FX loop isn’t then affected by the onboard effects? That’s my experience with other modelling amps anyway. 
 

So in concept I don’t see that your Kia analogy is a fair one; however I do agree that the Cat should go back. Seems to defeat the object for Line 6, though, doesn’t it? To release an amp to take on head-to-head one of the best selling amps of all time (the Katana) but the end product is an amp that fundamentally doesn’t work with what is currently the one of the most popular things to place in the FX Loop (ie a looper) and therefore it’s an amp that won’t work for a lot of people. So I would argue it is a design flaw, given the concept of the amp (as indicated by the name ‘Cat/Kat’, price point etc) is to appeal to as many people as possible.

I’ve haven’t noticed these popping noises on the Cat yet but I’ve had similar problems with a popping noise like that with Blackstar tube amps as well. 
In the digital world though I’d expect that to be something that  can fixed. I personally don’t buy an ‘all-in-one’ amp to then have to stick pedals in the front, although in appreciate that is one solution

It’s a manageable problem for sure. My bigger issue - if I understand it correctly - is about the implementation of the Fx Loop. I’ve posted separately about it in another thread, so I’m not going to go in to too much detail here, But from what I can see the FX loop is placed before the built-in effects such as delay, meaning that if you use a looper in the FX Loop, which is all I use it for, whatever effects you then turn on in the amp also affects the loop you’ve recorded (delay being an example of an effect  that has a really negative result on a loop)

Please take a look at my post and answer there if you have a view on this. It’s becoming a deal-breaker for me and the amp will go back unless there’s a work around - it seems to be a major design flaw to me…

Plus, another thing that frustrates me about using the amp model button to change patches is the  white light that tells you what amp model you’re on is a) too dim, and b) bleeds through to the models either side so it’s hard to tell which amp you’ve selected sometimes.