rvroberts

Have you lost your global EQ settings?

Set a bottom cut around 120hz and a top cut around 6K. If it suddenly sounds better, play with your global EQ to taste! A gentle bell curve is ( but very steep at top and bottom numbers) is what you want to see.

Other people here are going to try to help you. I'm just going to say to you that a lot of top professionals are using the Helix and they use it because they get great sounds. So you have to realise that unless your device is faulty, it has to be how you are using it, not the Helix.

Setting global EQ or setting high and low cuts on your speakers (IR or Helix cabs) are the first thing you need to do. Guitar sounds should not have high frequencies or very low frequencies. Bad distortion sounds are a result of too much high end. Guitar speakers don't produce these frequencies. Bisognojm is giving you a good starting point. I'd start to cut the lows at more like 120hz, but I like a tight bottom end. Somewhere between 5.7-6.5k fit high cut. Depends on if you like smooth or agressive.

If you are using the editor on a computer, you can view the global eq as a curve. Make a nice big bow with seriously cut top and bottom. You really don't want to hear this bad frequencies at all!

I'd love to offer a technical solution to you.  But I don't think one exists!  The problem is complex.  The observed "loudness" of a patch is not just some metered value.  It has as much to do with the sound itself and the fact that your ears hear different frequencies differently and that again changes depending on volume.  So I'm afraid the best you can do is get in a decent sized space and adjust your levels against a sound you decide to call your reference level.  Its a time consuming process and you probably need to do it twice as your ears get tired.  You need to do it at the type of level you are going to play at - it will not work at every level.  That's again just the physics of hearing.  You should adjust your overall global EQ while playing at level too.  Then you will be in the ballpark.  Then you need to do a rehearsal with your band and make more adjustments because some sounds will get lost in the mix more than others and you will need to either boost or EQ them some more to hear them well without being excessively loud.  I've done all the above, and depending on the stage, I still need to make on the fly adjustments.  So all my patches end in a volume pedal.

That means the FOH guy still needs to be on the case because what I hear and what he hears are not necessarily the same thing.

There is a Fetcher Munson patch that offers some help - http://line6.com/customtone/search/?submitted=1&family=helix&search_term=fletcher-munson

Can't say I used it - I just did it by ear at volume - but will test it soon to make some new patches.

You can also read this - http://line6.com/support/page/kb/_/general-faq/studio-tone-vs-live-tone-and-the-fletcher-muns-r448

I think the question might work like this - does the input pad happen before the AtoD conversion?

Then there would be a difference between you doing in in globals and you doing it as a first step in a patch.

If not then they would have to be the same.

Again, if by using the input pad, you are only reducing gain at the start of an effects chain - it would not matter. But if you are actually getting a better Analog to Digital conversion by using or not using the pad, you would want to know which produces the best result.  (Probably relates to conversations about some form of metering in Helix.)

If you are recording into a DAW, maybe do both and see if you can hear a difference?  Probably hearing is the best way to judge.

I think using an overdrive or distortion might help uncover any difference?

Let us know your results.

Well unless you want to run (and carry) and extra amp, you need the active version.

Hi Twystedriffs,

I can help you with some of this I suspect.

Firstly - you are running into 2x12 cabs - you haven't said what they are or the speakers inside, but I'm going to assume based on your problem they are guitar speakers?

Guitar speakers have a dramatically limited frequency response designed to work well for guitar.  Your first problem is that full range speakers - your PA or recording equipment - are full range!  So without the effect of the speakers you are very likely sending a lot of nasty high frequencies (and some very low ones too) that don't sound good for guitar and particularly nasty for overdrive.  So if you have a great sound out of your 2x12s and rubbish out of everything else  - that's where the problem comes from.  If you can't get great sounds out of the rig you describe (remember there are a lot of pros here, so they won't generally be wrong about getting great sounds!!) then its you who is doing something fundamentally wrong.

I don't know how Crate power blocks are configured, but I see they have an input with tone controls.  I gather from your comments they also have a loop - use the loop.  Why? Because the Helix is an amp simulator, If you plug into the front you are probably plugging into a guitar preamp with its own frequency curves and other stuff that is designed to help you get a guitar sound - which is exactly what the amp models in the Helix do - you don't want to do that twice - you will have just dumped half you frequency range.

As you are using guitar speakers, you don't want to use any cab simulation or IRs.  Again, you will be simulating the effect of speakers and then sending that reduced very midrange sound to speakers that will do that frequency limiting again.

All the presets you are going to find with the Helix or on the net are not designed for your type of rig.

This might be most of your problem with presets - they will have an amp model and a speaker cab - go through the loop and remove the cab sim (if its a combo amp, you will need to swap it for the equivalent amp with no speakers).

So if you do what I just said, you should be getting much better results for your live sound.  Your next problem, is you now don't have a great signal to send to front of house.  You have 2 choices - mic your cabs in the traditional way or create a seperate output with a cab sim for feeding to FOH - unfortunately because the Helix is really designed to work with FRFR speakers, you can't do that globally - you will need to add a cab sim and rout a second output to FOH.

If you still find you have drastically different levels from your own patches to the modified presets as I've described, there are lots of places in your patch chain to adjust level - I'm wondering if you are actually overdriving the front end of your amps at the moment to help give you tones guts.  Again, that's not the way to use the Helix - make all the drive you need in the patch not on the amp.

Hope some of that helps you.

Does this happen if you build your own patch using only Line 6 suff (no imported IRs)?

I'm wondering if you have picked up some corrupt code somewhere there.

A factory reset (after a full backup) would be worth trying.

Then you could start slowly loading patches  (you probably have a "guestimate" on which ones are the most stable) and see how you go.

There are 2 possibilities here - something wrong with something you have installed - easy to happen given different sources and just bad downloads - or its your Helix.

Lets hope its the first one!

I'm using a pair of Behringer B112 boxes.  They are light and can kick a hell of a lot of level.  I don't feed them a huge amount of bottom or top - but that seems good for stage sound and seems fine for FOH too.  I think you'd get away with 10s too. Yamaha do some.  Light and cost effective. I expect you can hire some to try out - which I would definitely be doing before I spend dollars. Gives you and the rest of the band the amp experience and makes you independant of the sound guy.  I think with a big enough rig and your own guy doing foldback mix, you could forget your own system, but in my world I want my own control.

Not totally convinced you got to pay over $1000 for a FRFR box - a bit of EQ goes a long way! Give them a go - anyone else had the pleasure of comparing the high end of FRFR with just reasonable PA boxes with some intelligent EQ?  I'm really wanting to see some well done comparisons - I'm getting a good stage sound I think. FOH is happy too.  But I'll be convinced by some solid practical experience................

I've not found a great deal of success though doing presets at home - at least not without some modification in a band setting - you just hear differently a volume and then there's the need to fit with and find your space with the rest of the band.

Just a question....why don't you use the guitar input?

You definitely got something set weird!  Helix responds pretty much exactly like a valve amp - your volume is part of your control system.

I suggest you dive into this thing - take an empty preset - see how to access the user presets and go there.

Now add an amp you know what to expect from.  You need an amp and a cab minimum. (Makes sense doesn't it?)  Now just play that and see what you get?  Important 

Try a drive pedal - play with the values and get a feel for it - really exactly like it is with an amp and a pedal - if its not, you are doing something strange or your system is faulty. For anyone to help you past this point we need to know what you are connected to and how you are connected. (maybe just phones for a start?)

Just curious about this statement... Do you think the instructions listed here are unclear in any way? http://line6.com/support/topic/18284-latest-helix-firmware-201/

 

Reading through them, I'm not sure how they could be more clear... Not picking on you or anything. It's just that I've heard several people make this claim, and I just can't understand why they think the instructions aren't clear.

Yes, they are both unclear and intimidating.  That's hard for you to understand I can see because you are comfortable with computers and understand the brain space.

I could rewrite the instructions with a good collection if images to help novices. But that's not my job,  Let me try to help you see it through other eyes - I can see others have already tried some of this since you sent you message.

Lets start at the top - trying to put ourselves in newbie brain space - 

IMPORTANT! YOU *MUST* FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS TO INSTALL 2.01!

So I'm new to this stuff and boy am I intimidated - if I'm not real comfortable in computer based music, I'm already likely to be doubting should I attempt this update.

And why does this large red thing exist - because some programmer just can't believe anyone could be stupid enough to get it wrong in the past, but obviously lots have.  That person is the wrong person to write the instructions.

It shows a lack of respect for people not skilled with computers at an installation level (take my wife who is an accountant - can program smart stuff in Excel - she would just call IT the minute she got a message like that).

How do you know the version of the software you have?  I know - but lots of people don't!

The link - http://line6.com/software/ - It doesn't take me to the software!

It takes me to a page where I can then navigate to the software providing I know how to work the form - even I was dumbfounded by that!

Assuming I actually successfully navigate that (and there are a number of wrong turns there like selecting Line 6 Editor instead of Helix in the second tab - where you would get this response - 

So assuming I get that part right - When I get there I seem to be on a page that just repeats the same installation stuff - but at least the warning is smaller!

Hiding - yes, I would call it hiding - cause its far from the most obvious thing on the page and requires you to scroll down to even see it - is the get download button - anyone know anything about interface design? 

I am still personally peeved that there are no warnings about IRs in the information about backup - and the fact there is no management of IRs is a programming oversight  - but there should be screen grabs to help here so the newbie has a decent chance of doing this part right.

The foot switches to reset globals - again - an image - it's just another part of making it feel easy and not dangerous.

Then it should take the user through re installing their patches, setlists and IRs.

Again with some screen grabs.

I hope you can begin to see this through other eyes - I personally believe the Helix could be a turning point for a lot of players who are analogue through and through.

But if that is to be the case, then this stuff has to assume they have never done anything like this before.

That is also why Line 6 really needs to create a good looking, friendly utility that does all this for the user - then there is nothing scary about adopting the technology.

Looking around a forum like this at the moment will be putting a lot of them off.

When the installer starts with something like "Welcome to the Helix update utility - you will now be guided through the update process" you are starting to do it professionally.

Not generally my type of thing, but I got to admit, you really got your head round the Helix, and you clearly are having a lot of fun with that crazy stuff you are making! Good luck to you!

Your volume thing is in globals. I'm not in front of the Helix at the moment. Check the manual, but you can set the behaviour so the volume is always read from the position of the pedal - which is how I use it and I suspect most people who perform live. You still need to 'normalise' your volumes so the change from patch to patch has no surprises. But if you do and your pedal is set say 60%, then all your patches will be 60% volume.

I suspect though that you are asking the Helix to work exactly the same as your POD X3L. Try to get your head round snapshots - they are the way to set and make changes within a song. Patches are more likely to be a set of snapshots you use per song, so you would have a patch for that song (or group of songs if they are using mostly the same sounds), and change sounds with snapshots during the song.

You can change modules like a chorus with a snapshot, but you can do much more. You can change the drive of the amp, the tone, and turn on or off a significant number of pedals all on one snapshot. You can assign almost every parameter the thing has to a snapshot and make huge changes that way.

The one thing I love about the Helix might not matter so much to a Pod lover - it responds pretty much exactly like a valve amp, so your volume and tone on your guitar will sometimes be the only change you need to make! It's the first digital device I felt I could sell my valve amps to buy.

All the above is what I've been saying for a while.  People, including me are a little nervous to update due to the possibility of bugs.

There is no fall back position - at least not in Australia - if I brick my Helix, I'll wait potentially months for a replacement.

I'm always cautious to update my Macs - I wait till there has been a month or so of stability before updating.  Because things do go wrong!

Incidentally - I'm a long way from being computer illiterate - but I've also been through plenty of computer pain like everyone who's used any cutting technology.  This stuff is keeping 3/4 of the guitar players sticking to their amps and pedals. They don't feel like they can trust the technology, and they got a point.  90% of things that could go wrong with my old rig I could fix on the spot - even if it meant dropping a pedal or changing a valve - no big deal. So you are asking people to pay a lot of money and take a huge jump of faith.  Maybe a lot of you are happy to keep it that way. Line 6 should not be.  They need to solve the reliability concern as much as they possibly can.

A lot of this nervousness is a result of people having problems that would not happen if there was a decent installer.  I can't necessarily tell if it's user error or a potential bug.  My experience so far has not been trouble free - and that is not a result of not following the instructions carefully.  That there is no system way to backup and restore IRs for example - was a learning experience.  That Impedance was not correctly saved was another example.

So - 

Firstly, it is not programming for anyone to write good clean instructions.  It's an hour's extra work - maybe 2. Just get a pleb to test it and watch what they do - you'll soon know if it needs more work.

Secondly, maybe 15 mins work to put all the relevant software (updater/firmware/editor) together in the one place and preferably one Zip file.  With a really obvious link on the page you get to if you google Helix update.

Next are checking routines - a bit of code that looks at your system to make sure a particular bit of software exists before doing a particular action.  This is not something anyone needs to write - it exists - they just copy and paste and edit to look for the correct updater/firmware/editor.

These are not huge programming problems - let's not make excuses for them not existing.

A full installer program - maybe that can wait - but not too long - there's probably Helix II in a year or 2.

Yes, you can do what you want adjusting any parameter per snapshot.  Drive is a really common one.  

Page 33 of the Helix 2.0 manual for details - or just look at the various YouTube videos.

You can also set one row of stomp buttons for snapshots and one for stomp mode - but then you can't navigate the patches as well I think - up to you.  I'm using Snapshots on the bottom row and patches on the top.  I like that and it has the added advantage that when I miss the second button on the bottom and hit the bank down instead (which I do all to regularly - would love wider spaced buttons) - you still see all your snapshots and you can just have another go at hitting the right one!  I used to get into trouble with that on the old setup - I'd need to reselect my patch and then my preset.  So It's win win as far as that goes!

I want to give this guy a big award for saying what should be at the start of everything you read about the Helix.  That's why I asked if it sounded too fizzy.  Do what he said, and then listen - I personally do the bass rolloff at 100Hz - I like a bit brighter sound with more cut and hat getting lost in the Hamond in the band - but that's a great starting point for personal tweaking.  

I would bet there is a humbucker in the bridge position.

But you should still get in the ballpark with your Strat bridge ( back the tone off a bit if you got tone on your bridge p/u)

So what are you listening through? If it's a guitar amp then that's the problem. These things need to be heard through something more full range. If it's headphones or a stereo, you probably need to set your global EQ. If it sounds really fizzy, that will be your problem. Guitar speakers roll off at say 6K. Try that. If you have too much bass, roll off the bass ( you almost certainly will have too much if you didn't set global EQ.

If you are using a guitar amp, it's going to change the sound a lot. Hopefully you have an effects send and return. Plug into the return. That way you avoid the guitar amp's preamp killing your sound. Global EQ is probably not going to be needed. You are using guitar speakers. Unfortunately they won't be the ones he is simulating in the cab simulation. And you won't proably want to use that amp model anyhow because you don't want a speaker sim if you are using a guitar speaker box. Not got my Helix on at the moment, but if it's there use the Cali preamp into you return. You will have to adjust for your rig no matter what. Use your ears. Adjust EQ and gain so you start with a reasonable match to the straight amp. The rest should be fine if your starting point is similar.

Don't plug straight into the front of a guitar amp. Totally pointless.

Are you saying you installed the 2.01 firmware and the 2.01 editor and they won't talk to each other? Or did you just do one? And did you reset the Helix and reinstall you patches/IRs?  I find all that messy, but so far its worked fine,,,,,ish...............

Yes - the color coding - love it!

This is interesting.........it seems few of you had the issue I had with the 2.0 update.  This probably comes from trying impedance matching to my guitar.  As I had done that pre 2.0 update, when I updated the impedance is now per patch rather than global.  I can see how that makes sense as you might be using totally different instruments for different patches.  So its a long term gain.  But as I had set it as a global, I had to modify every patch.  Then comes snapshots - yes, another gain - but it took 2 days (about 4 hours each) before I was feeling like I was set up to play a gig again.  And after a rehearsal, I know some of my settings still need work - yes, its unavoidable - things sound different at high volume and getting sounds that cut through the mix takes time.  So that little impedance thing has cost a lot of time - if it didn't do that for you guys, you are lucky! (or maybe you didn't dig that deep to begin with?)

Regarding updates - come on guys - its a computer - are you seeing all the people who didn't update their editor or reset and reload their patches?  It's not fair to say silly people should have read all the stuff properly - the updates are cumbersome and require you do do a sequence of events correctly - what's wrong with Line 6 writing a decent update utility that does that all in a foolproof way?  

I expect that level of coding in the world today - why don't you?  You expect it on your iPhone.

And thank you phil_m - your suggestion for IRs is a good one and I'll use it - something Line 6 could implement by default too - then we wouldn't need to think about it.

Don't get me wrong - its a great box - but there are too many rough edges in the software/hardware for my liking.  I know really good players who couldn't deal with it.  And that's a pity.  Push to make it better!  Those installation notes covered in warnings -  I'd call that unprofessional.

I find all this re installing everything a significant downside to the whole process.  As a gigging musician, it's eating a lot of time.  And after the impedance issues of the 2.0 update, I'm very cautious - I had to rebuild most of my sounds as the overall tonal spectrum changed.  I also really think there should be a way to save IR's in order - so it's not a laborious manual process putting 20 or 30 IRs back in the correct order. 

So -

1. I'd like to be able to save IRs as a set or Bundle or something - so you just reload and away you go.

2. I'd like Line 6 to tell me accurately what to expect as gotchas when updating - then you know if you need to delay or totally skip a certain update.

3. I'd like less but better tested updates - or some list that lets me know that this update is say "beta".

A lot of software has tested and certified versions for people who need reliability and beta versions for those who like to live a bit more on the edge.

Finally, the update process is dangerous.  It's all too easy to brick your Helix.  Surely Line 6 can improve the installation - if a new version of the editor is necessary, the installer should do that by default before installing the firmware update.  I think that's a must. 

So if I do this it will keep all my snapshots and all the input impedances I've just laboriously fixed after 2.0 upgrade and all my IRs won't be lost/need reinstalling??

I find using my Helix so far.............and we are all constantly experimenting - its both great and a curse from time to time! - that the big secret to getting a great sound out of PA style speakers (and I suspect any FRFR type of setup) is to have a global EQ that makes what you send fit into the frequency response of what might be expected from a mic'ed guitar amp.  So I'm quiet drastically killing bottom and high end - I actually kill anything above 10K. Even 8K depending on the box - big horn = kill more high frequencies.  This despite using IRs.  And on the IRs I'm even more extreme - often setting a roll off at like 5.9K.  For me this gets rid of all the harsh highs that make distortion sound bad.  It still lets through nice glassy Strat sounds.  Be interested to hear other people's experiences.

Regarding levels - I'm going out at line level and into my boxes at line level.  I find I can get a great sound with careful tweaking of EQ out of most PA type speakers and am using Behringer boxes and getting a great sound - it make me wonder how much of the highend FRFR boxes (none of which are anywhere I can try them!) is just starting with a more instrument friendly response?  Obviously not having crossover issues to a horn would help.  Seriously - the minute you kill all the low end and harsh highs you are in the ball park.  IR's are not the solution on their own - when was the last time you were in a studio with a SM57 on a box straight into the desk without the kind of EQ I'm describing?

Yes - I think you have found the issue.  Thing is I'll still have to remake those patches a little, as although the auto setting is too extreme, the total tonal balance across the guitar is clearly better somewhere in between - a learning experience with the typical touch of pain!

Any opinions on the best setting for a Strat - I got 2 American standards and I suspect they are different anyhow!!

Yes, if only I had kept that info!

Nothing regarding the brightness issue? - these are Line 6 combo amps and speakers